7 Jul 2026
The Traffic Engineer Who Helped Tear Down a Freeway
Jack, a self-described "low-level, powerless bureaucrat," didn't let that stop him from pushing for what he saw was right after the 1989 earthquake. What he knew: freeways don't reduce traffic - they invite more.
This episode is part of Any Job Can Be a Climate Job, a podcast exploring how people bring climate impact into everyday work, even in roles that aren't labeled 'climate.'
Jack Lucero Fleck spent decades inside San Francisco's transportation department, starting as a draftsman and retiring as the city's fifth traffic engineer. He used to call himself and his colleagues "low-level, powerless bureaucrats." Then they helped tear down the Embarcadero Freeway.
After the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake damaged the double-decker freeway that walled off the waterfront, Jack's team did the work that answered the question everyone was stuck on: where would the traffic go? Their finding, that the surface streets offered "comparable capacity," helped win a 6 to 5 vote to take it down for good. This conversation was recorded live during San Francisco Climate Week, in collaboration with the Climate Action Resource Library, with audience questions at the end.
It is a story about climate work hiding inside the nuts and bolts of a city, and about how change actually moves through a slow institution: anchor to a policy that already exists, and listen for what your opponent really wants.
Who this episode is for
Public-sector and government workers who think their role is too small to matter
City planners, engineers, and transit advocates
Anyone trying to make change from inside a large, slow institution
People who want to persuade across deep disagreement
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Chapters
0:00 "Low-level, powerless bureaucrats" (cold open)
2:04 The Embarcadero Freeway that walled off the waterfront
3:51 What a traffic engineer does, and how Jack got here
10:09 Starting as a draftsman: his first taste of power
11:07 The earthquake: "where will the traffic go?"
12:39 The myth of vanishing traffic and "comparable capacity"
14:55 Transit-first policy as leverage, and the climate angle
17:57 The Chinatown fight and the 6-to-5 vote to tear it down
20:46 The second fight: the terminal separator structure
24:42 Levers for employers, and solutions for suburban sprawl
28:57 Befriending Rose Pak and winning the Central Subway
31:08 After retiring: 350 Bay Area and solving warming
34:32 What "350" means: McKibben, Hansen, and 350 ppm
37:12 Audience Q&A: a friendship across the divide
42:38 Regional sprawl and induced demand
46:14 Autonomous vehicles and the "three revolutions"
48:30 EV chargers as infrastructure
51:57 Closing: listen for what your opponent actually wants
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Resources mentioned
350 Bay Area (https://350bayarea.org/) and 350 Bay Area Action
350.org (https://350.org/), founded by Bill McKibben (the name comes from 350 ppm CO2, via climate scientist James Hansen)
San Francisco's transit-first policy (https://www.sfmta.com/transit-first-policy) (1973)
Three Revolutions (https://islandpress.org/books/three-revolutions) by Dan Sperling (electric, autonomous, shared)
The End of Nature (https://billmckibben.com/books/the-end-of-nature/) by Bill McKibben
Climate Action Resource Library (https://carl.eco/) (co-host)
For Jack's full climate allies list, plus his 2010 ITE paper ("What Will It Take to Stop Global Warming: The Case for Electric Cars") and his SPUR retirement talk on the automobile in the city, see the full episode notes on Substack (https://anyjobcanbeaclimatejob.substack.com/).
Disclaimer: This episode is for informational purposes only. Views are the guest's own.
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YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@anyjobcanbeaclimatejob)
Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/any-job-can-be-a-climate-job/id1780900570)
Substack (https://anyjobcanbeaclimatejob.substack.com/)
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✨ Work with Louisa - advising, coaching, speaking: kidoki.com (https://www.kidoki.com)
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🎙 Credits
Produced and hosted by Louisa Henry (https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisas/)
Edited by Alex Leff (https://www.resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast/)
Music by Run Riot Run (https://www.runriotrun.com/)
Logo by Cassidy Frost (https://www.getlostcassidyfrost.com/)
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