Chasing Bailey

About Chasing Bailey

Chasing Bailey is a podcast about a group of teachers, leaders, and others who dedicated themselves to changing the fortunes of a failing middle school in Nashville TN from 2012 to 2016. They succeeded, but their achievement was bittersweet. In 2016, the district closed that school. Still, those who were there knew they had stumbled onto something special, some important educational truths that might help all of us find our way out of the morass that COVID 19 has left us in.

Publisher

Chasing Bailey

Category

education

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

31 May 2022

Latest episode

23 Jul 2024

Latest episodes

19 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   23 Jul 2024

   How Choice for Students Gets Us to Responsibility

   Families’ choice of school for their children is not the only kind of choice that matters educationally.  It may well not be the most important kind, either.  We heard from parents in Episode 4 who were concerned with whether or not their kids learned to think and act for themselves, and in the process, to take responsibility for who they were in the world. What do educators think about this? When educators wrestle with questions of student choice and responsibility, the differences revolve around when and how much -- and almost never about whether choice and responsibility matter. But the broad strokes of what we know are clear in research and in our discussion here: choice motivates student interest and effort, choice forms the ground for taking responsibility, and choice is both ground for and marker of shared life in a democratic community. 00:00  Introduction to the Second Season Dr. Barbara Stengel 01:24 Choice generates motivation, responsibility, and democracy Stengel 03:51 Introductions Anna Bernstein, middle level English teacher/coach; Sara Sjerven, independent school English teacher/coach; Liz Self, high school English teacher 08:11 So what about choice? Links to teachers’ autonomy, curricular constraints and self-censorship Bernstein, Stengel, Sjerven 17:07 Choice as simple respect for students Self 21:50 Choice is both challenging and necessary for learning Bernstein, Sjerven 26:18 Why choice?  Community of learners Stengel, Sjerven 30:10 Why choice? Other people in all their glory!  Self 33:30 Why choice? The purpose of public school in a democracy Bernstein, Stengel 36:55 Bring on responsibility (gender, time, desire, perspective) Self, Stengel, Sjerven 41:35 Whose choices?  Whose agency? Whose responsibility? Sjerven, Stengel 44:30 Disillusionment is understandable; is response possible? Bernstein 46:55 What’s privilege got to do with it?  Students’ economic value Sjerven, Stengel, 50:03 Does responsibility precede choice?  Sjerven, Bernstein 53:16 The continuous enlargement of the space of the possible Self 56:40 Supports for teachers who design for choice? Stengel, Bernstein, Sjerven, 63:39 Community, creativity and trust for teachers Stengel 66:20 This is the end of Season 2.  Join us in the fall for Season 3! Many thanks to the committed and accomplished teachers who agreed to inform our thinking for this episode!   These include Anna Bernstein, Sara Sjerven, and Liz Self. As usual, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can pursue our sources and find out more about these issues at our website: www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/).

2. 

   20 Mar 2024

   Reading Wars Redux:  The Science of Reading

   Folks have been debating how to teach reading at least since 1985.  At that time, the issue was framed as top-down vs. bottom-up. This makes the debate seem “tidy,” just two sides with clear delineation.   You were FOR phonics (bottom up) or you were FOR textual understanding (top down), but you couldn’t be for both.  In truth, there were no teachers then or now who don’t value both, who don’t tailor their teaching to the instructional moment of their students, individually and collectively. Well, we’re at the reading wars again, but the slogan now is “the science of reading” and all the educational reformers are hopping on the bandwagon.  In this episode, we ask teachers to make sense of the science of reading and what it has to do with the real challenges and real joys in helping youngsters become readers. 00:00  Introduction to the Second Season Dr. Barbara Stengel 01:24 The “Reading Wars” are back!!  Stengel 04:24 DC teacher Katie Mazenko on complexity and challenge  Mazenko;  Stengel 07:42 Is balance bad??  How to get skill, will and thrill. Stengel; Sara Abu Rumman, IN public school literacy coach 11:49   A new teacher faces the challenge   Maddie Bernards, 1st grade teacher in CA; Stengel 14:14 What’s developmentally “normal” in reading development?   Stengel; Mazenko; Sarah Ockenhouse, 3rd grade Nashville teacher 19:08 Joy in skill development and watching kids become readers   Stengel; Ockenhouse 21:10 And why test scores don’t reflect actual development?  Stengel; Ockenhouse 22:20 What do reading researchers think?  Don’t legislate!  Stengel 23:25 Understanding the value of phonics in learning to read  Stengel; Cara Furman, Hunter College 30:10 Juggling the different needs of youngsters learning to read Stengel; Furman 33:04 The important of teacher autonomy in teaching reading  Stengel; Krystal Dillard, co-Director, 38:41 Curriculum and materials that encourage reading and readers  Stengel; Dillard 40:54 Structured literacy is back!  In a context of external controls   Stengel; Ocheze Joseph, Director of Teacher Education, American University 45:20 (How) Are novice teachers prepared to take this on?  Stengel; Ockenhouse; Bernards 48:50 Can the system shift to make first rate reading instruction possible for all?  Stengel, Bernards; Abu Rumman; 55:01 What motivates the slogan “science of reading”?  Maybe money, maybe politics  Stengel;  Dillard 56:28 Relationships and teacher judgment in the face of a “manufactured crisis”: the Chasing Bailey touchstone  Stengel 59:16  Join us next time to think about choice as it impacts concrete interactions between teachers and students (and yes, parents too!) Many thanks to the guests who agreed to inform our thinking for this episode!   These include Katelyn Mazenko, Sara Abu Rumman, Maddie Bernards, Dr. Cara Furman, Krystal Dillard, Sarah Ockenhouse, and Dr. Ocheze Joseph. As usual, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can pursue our sources and find out more about these issues at our website: www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/).

3. 

   5 Feb 2024

   What Do Parents REALLY Want?

   Today we don’t talk enough about John Dewey’s call to educational equity and its impact on democracy.  Instead, small groups of parents (most notably Moms for Liberty) are prompting battles in local school boards to ban books, to fight racially inclusive curriculum, and to limit the rights and constrain the very existence of transgender and questioning youth. But some other parents – the majority it seems -- are fighting back to say clearly that these are not concerns they care about.   What DO they care about?  If this episode’s guests are taken seriously, families care about their children’s happiness, curiosity, safety, diversity, relationships – and recess!!  It’s not that they don’t want academic learning for their youngsters, but they seem to understand … as most educators do, that happiness, curiosity, etc. will ensure the right academic achievement to power both economic capacity and living well. 00:00  Introduction to the Second Season Dr. Barbara Stengel 01:24 What do we mean when we invoke parents rights?  Stengel 04:29 Grandmas for Love challenge Moms for Liberty Stengel; Dr. Shirley Showalter, former President of Goshen College 11:57 Do other parents agree with Grandmas for Love?  It seems so!   Stengel 12:15   The special view of parents in rural areas  Amanda West, expectant mother and Bailey resident; Stengel 18:04   Supporting the Bailey grad who now has adult responsibilities Ithaca Black, Bailey parent and mother of Maia; Stengel 22:40   Committing to the “neediest” neighborhood school Christiane Buggs, President of the MNPS School Board and mother of Christopher;  Stengel 29:50 What to do about school when your kids need very different things? Liz Self, educator and mother of Oliver, Emme, and Zola; Stengel 39:32 How a child with multiple disabilities shapes everybody’s experience  Becky Peterson, educator and mother of Finn, Hawk, and Lucy;  Stengel 47:44 Use the PTA as an entrée to care for your kids   Jess Houde, educator and mother of three enrolled in the same district;  Stengel 53:33 What do dads want?  Stu Smith, father of Stuie and Alana and Johnny Benson, father of Bailey and Jojo; Stengel 1:01.58  What parents want … no surprise  Stengel 1:03:00  The link between love and success/achievement  Showalter, Stengel 1:04:40  Taking an alternate look at the whys and wherefores of  parental choice 1:06:15  Join us next time to dive into “the science of reading.” Many thanks to the guests who agreed to inform our thinking for this episode!   These include Shirley Showalter, Amanda West, Ithaca Black, Christiane Buggs, Liz Self, Becky Peterson, Johnny Benson, and Stu Smith. As usual, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can pursue our sources and find out more about these issues at our website: www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/).

4. 

   18 Jan 2024

   Responsibility: Anchoring (Renewal in) Education

   This is a “bonus episode,” not part of our regular schedule, but a conversation that nonetheless deepens and expands the ideas about education that ground the podcast.  In mid-December, Bloomsbury Press published Responsibility, a book  authored by Dr. Barbara Stengle for their Philosophy of Education in Practice series.  To help launch the book, Barb decided to sit down with 4 colleagues and invite them to make sense of what she has said and done.

5. 

   1 Dec 2023

   Professional Development? Learning In and Through Practice

   Have you ever taken the time to really listen to teachers talk about their work, about their joys and frustrations, and about how they grow as they work together?   This episode is an opportunity to do just that.   Bailey teachers talk about their experience and offer wisdom for all of us as they do so. 00:00  Introduction to the Second Season Dr. Barbara Stengel 01:25 Introduction to Professional Development? The Bailey Experience Stengel 03:55 Bailey’s Team Structure as the Engine of Professional Development  Stengel, Keisha Harding, Bailey Teacher Leader now a STEM Consultant; Emily Prendergrass, Associate Professor of the Practice of Teaching Reading, Peabody College 14:20 TLUS as a Vehicle for Learning Together to be Prepared, Not Scared Stengel, Harding, Pendergrass 24:05 More Relational Capacity: The Synergistic Role of Residents  Stengel, Lindsey Nelson, Dean of Academics; Kenan Kerr, resident, 8 year teacher, now curriculum consultant;  Julia Konrad, resident, 5 year teacher, now Head of Education Research in NYC Independent Budget Office 40:05 Job-Embedded Teachers:  The Answer to Shortages?  Stengel, Nelson, Kerr, Konrad 47:58 Why Aren’t These Teachers Still in the Classroom? Stengel, Nelson, Kerr, Konrad 54:28 What Does Teacher Learning Look Like in the Good School?  And How Can We Fund THAT? Stengel 57:15 Next Time:  “Parents Rights”:  Politically Volatile but Educationally Important?  Not So Much Stengel Many thanks to the guests who agreed to inform our thinking for this episode!   These include Emily Pendergrass, Keisha, Harding, Lindsey Nelson, Julia Konrad, and Kenan Kerr. As usual, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can pursue our sources and find out more about these issues at our website: www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/).

6. 

   1 Nov 2023

   Autonomy? Trust and Responsibility

   The headlines are still screaming at us … but those headlines are not written by teachers and principals.  As we saw in the last episode, most media headlines simply don’t reflect the experience or concerns of those considered actual educational experts. 00:00  Introduction to the Second Season Dr. Barbara Stengel 01:25   Introduction to Autonomy (a tour through the headlines from Chicago and Denver) Stengel, Camilla Modesitt, Director of External Relations, Denver Language School 08:15   Principals’ Perspectives: “Professionalism and Empowerment with Balance and ‘Compliance’” Merida Freguada, Principal, Marrama Elementary 12:13   Principals’ Perspective: “Innovation in Name Only” Alex Wenzel, Principal, Denver Center for International Studies 19:55   Principals’ Perspectives: “Autonomy as Freedom, Power, and Responsibility” Modisett 32:44   Autonomy = Trust and Responsibility Stengel, Fraguada 33:55   Teacher Autonomy, Dead or Not Dead? Stengel 36:45   Autonomy in the Good School:  Lessons from Bailey Stengel, Claire Jasper-Crafter, Bailey Chief of Culture;  Karen Dorris, Bailey Teacher Leader, Laura Laufman, Bailey Resident 41:50   “All Their Needs Were Taken Care of” Stengel 42:45   Next Time:  Learning in and through Practice  Wenzel, Stengel Many thanks to the guests who agreed to inform our thinking for this episode! As usual, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can pursue our sources and find out more about these issues at our website:  www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com).

7. 

   29 Oct 2023

   Season 2 Episode 2 Teaser

   The Pandemic is endemic, or nearly so.  We’re still getting sick at all the wrong times, but the impact on most who actually test positive for COVID-19 are annoying rather than debilitating.  But the pandemic left us with a huge educational hangover, and the headlines really are screaming at us.  As always, our interest is in the experience of those who are on the ground. Full Episode releases on November 1st.

8. 

   1 Oct 2023

   Post-Pandemic Responsibility and Recovery

   The Pandemic is endemic, or nearly so.  We’re still getting sick at all the wrong times, but the impact on most who actually test positive for COVID-19 are annoying rather than debilitating.  But the pandemic left us with a huge educational hangover, and the headlines really are screaming at us.  As always, our interest is in the experience of those who are on the ground. 00:00  Introduction to the Second Season Dr. Barbara Stengel 01:30   Introduction to Post-Pandemic Recovery (a tour through the headlines) Stengel 06:37 The Bailey Perspective (featuring teacher leaders)  Whitney Weathers Bradley, Kelly Aldridge Boyd, LeKeisha Harding, and Lindsey Nelson 19:35 Experience on the Ground in Lancaster, PA  Stengel 20:44 Principals’ Perspective: “We Got This”  Melanie Martinez, Principal, Wharton Elementary School 23:45 COVID-19 as a Magnifying Glass for Persistent Problems  Baron Jones, Principal of Martic Middle School; Barb Smentek, science teacher, Lincoln Middle School; Martinez 32:44 Teachers’ Perspectives Stengel 33:55 Learning Loss  Amanda Aikens, Dean of Students, Ross Elementary School; Julia Rios Schwartz, 4th grade teacher, Martin Elementary School 36:45 What’s the Message?  Stengel, Aikens, Rios Schwartz 40:34 The Central Role of Community  Rios Schwartz, Stengel, Smentek 44:04 Community and Connection  Jones, Stengel 45:43 Neglecting Academics  Stengel, Smentek 47:40 Positive Outcomes of the Pandemic?  Stengel, Martinez 49:11 Caring for Teachers  Stengel, Aikens, Jones 54:10 Teachers Disheartened and Frustrated  Rios Schwartz, Stengel, Smentek 56:30 What Now?  Stengel

9. 

   29 Sept 2023

   Season 2 Episode 1 Teaser

   Mid-pandemic, the wish educators most often expressed was that the COVID 19 Pandemic would provide an opportunity for an educational reset, that educators (not politicians) might once again set the agenda. What actually happened, of course, is not that. The first episode of Season 2 of Chasing Bailey will be released on October 1st.

10. 

    25 Sept 2023

    Season 2 Teaser

    The new school year is underway, and we are getting ready for the second season of Chasing Bailey. The first episode of the new season will drop October 1st.   Plan to join us as we take a look at what schools can and should be doing post-pandemic.  Later episodes will look at principal’s autonomy, teacher shortages, professional development, and what parents really want from schools.   We’ll hear from familiar Bailey characters and then bring other educators into the conversation. If you want to be part of our conversations, if your school is doing something we need to know about, if you have questions that you want us to take up, drop us a line at chasingbaileypod@gmail.com (mailto:chasingbaileypod@gmail.com).   And as always, like us on Facebook, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!!

11. 

    17 Sept 2023

    Bonus Back-to-School Commentary: Let Teachers Teach!

    September 16, 2023 Chasing Bailey Bonus Back-to-School Commentary:  Let Teachers Teach! In this bonus back-to-school episode of Chasing Bailey, we listen as our commentator, Dr. Barbara Stengel, reads “An experienced educator’s plea: Let teachers teach!”  This is a short essay Barb was asked to write for the Lancaster Newpapers Sunday edition as school was beginning in August.   The theme of the piece evokes several Chasing Bailey themes (as will be obvious to regular listeners). 00:00  Introduction:  How this Essay Came to Be  Barbara Stengel 2:00    The text read by Dr. Stengel 11:30   Concluding remarks and invitation to join Season 2 of Chasing Bailey The newspaper commentary shared here was published on August 20, 2023 can be found at https://lancasteronline.com/opinion/columnists/an-experienced-educator-s-plea-let-teachers-teach-column/article_0484396c-3d59-11ee-87d7-afaf29023e3e.html (https://lancasteronline.com/opinion/columnists/an-experienced-educator-s-plea-let-teachers-teach-column/article_0484396c-3d59-11ee-87d7-afaf29023e3e.html) Our Host is Barb Stengel, an emerita professor of educational practice at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College, and also emerita professor at Millersville University. She is an educator, a self-described fan of the Bailey experiment, and an advocate for public schooling but a strong critic of how public schooling has strayed from educational intentions. Between 2012 and 2016, Barb spent one day a week at Bailey, coordinating the school’s collaboration with Peabody, and serving as an informal cheerleader while also learning from this remarkable effort. She knew early on it was a story worth telling. So she spent a year interviewing dozens of staff, students, parents, and district administrators who were eager to talk about their experiences. Barb is now retired from Vanderbilt University but she continues to find ways to highlight the work of educators and to criticize (constructively) the figures and forces that get in educators’ way. Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Samuel Deacon and Brenna Fallon with support by Ruby Mundok.   The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. We have incorporated the following musical tracks:  Rhythm and Blues Shuffle by JuliusH, Baritone Guitar Blues by Caffeine Creek Band, Blues Garage – Northern Hills by AntipodeanWriter, and Walking with Billie by Michael Korbin.  You can find these tunes on Pixabay.com. New episodes will drop on the first day of the month.  You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and Stitcher, and nearlyl anywhere else you find your podcasts. If you appreciate what you hear, please subscribe to Chasing Bailey, leave us a review, share with your friends by word of mouth, and post on social media.   Follow us on Instagram:       https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/ (https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/) Twitter:           https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey (https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey) Tiktok:            https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) Facebook:       https://www.facebook.com/Chasing-Bailey-107279178665337/ (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) More information will be available at www.chasingbaileypod.com/home (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/home). We look forward to your comments and questions at Chasingbaileypod@gmail.com.

12. 

    27 May 2023

    Bailey Closes on Greenwood Ave.

    It’s been a minute since our last episode … sorry to keep you waiting to hear just why Bailey on Greenwood Avenue was shut down, but I couldn’t explain how Bailey closed without the help of Principal Christian Sawyer and Dr. Alan Coverstone who was the Director of the iZone in MNPS and the administrator who got the ball rolling for the Bailey transformation – and those two guys are tough to pin down.   Once we got to talking, I was fascinated by the way Christian and Alan reflected on their experience with Bailey, taking responsibility, not blaming anybody else, but still speaking forthrightly about systemic blind spots, racism, and the political ecology of the district and the state that made it extremely difficult to set a course and stick with it.  As we’ve said from the very beginning, this is both object lesson and cautionary tale. This is the final episode of Season 1.   In the second season, slated to drop as school reopens in September, we’ll be thinking about lessons learned.  We won’t leave Bailey behind, but we’ll be bringing other schools and other educators into dialogue with the Bailey team and the Bailey experience.  Look for us then as we think more about what teaming looks like in elementary or secondary schools, as we consider the ups and downs of teacher residencies, as we explore how committed educators are able to focus on what’s possible despite systemic constraints, and more from families and students.  If you have an idea you’d like to have us explore or some ways you and your colleagues have found to focus on the relations and responsibility that have to be at the center of our educational efforts, please drop a note to chasingbaileypod@gmail.com (mailto:chasingbaileypod@gmail.com).   We would love to hear from you! :00       Introduction,  Barbara Stengel 04:00   Bailey and the iZone: Dr. Alan Coverstone, Director of the iZone 08:23   Expectations and developments in the first year: Coverstone; Dr. Christian Sawyer, Executive Principal 11:00   Hiring teachers of color: Coverstone, Sawyer 14:00   Changes in the second year, teaming and teachers of color:  Coverstone, Sawyer, Stengel 19:20   “The Plan” throws a wrench into the Bailey progress:  Stengel, Sawyer, Coverstone 21:45   The decision is made to close Bailey and the Bailey experiment unwinds:  Stengel, Sawyer, Coverstone 27:55   Commentary on the importance and effectiveness of relational pedagogy:  Stengel 28:50   After Bailey closed:  Stengel 29:30   But why? Administrative failure to understand what was happening Fix-it mindset vs. relational perspective Short-termism Systemic pushback Racism Leader’s naivete 64:20   Wrap-up and lead in Chasing Bailey, Season 2.  Barbara Stengel, Christian Sawyer In this eighth episode, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can find sources to find out more about these at our website:  www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com). Chasing Bailey is a podcast about a group of teachers, leaders, and others who dedicated themselves to changing the fortunes of a failing middle school in Nashville TN from 2012 to 2016. They succeeded, but their achievement was bittersweet. In 2016, the district closed that school. Still, those who were there knew they had stumbled onto something special, some important educational truths that might help all of us find our way out of the morass that COVID 19 has left us in. Our Host is Barb Stengel, a retired professor of educational practice at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College. She is a self-described fan of the Bailey experiment. Between 2012 and 2016, Barb spent one day a week at Bailey, coordinating the school’s collaboration with Peabody, and serving as an informal cheerleader while also learning from this remarkable effort. She knew early on it was a story worth telling. So over the past year, Barb has spent time with dozens of staff, students, parents, and district administrators who were eager to talk about their experiences. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon.   The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. Our theme music is Midnight Blues by lemonmusicstudio.  Occasional music for this episode includes Blues Vibes by Michael Kobrin.  (Music available on Pixabay.) This is the final episode of the first season of Chasing Bailey.  New episodes will be released as the 2023 school year begins.   We plan on two episodes a month. You can find the entire first season on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and Stitcher, and nearly anywhere else you find your podcasts. If you appreciate what you hear, please subscribe to Chasing Bailey, leave us a review, share with your friends by word of mouth, and post on social media.   Follow us on Instagram:       https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/ (https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/) Twitter:           https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey (https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey) Tiktok:            https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) Facebook:       https://www.facebook.com/Chasing-Bailey-107279178665337/ (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) More information is available at www.chasingbaileypod.com/home (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/home). We look forward to your comments and questions at Chasingbaileypod@gmail.com.

13. 

    13 Jan 2023

    This Is What Success Looks Like

    The question of a school’s “success” is the thread underlying this entire podcast – and the specific target we aim at today by listening to the voice and experience of four representative Bailey students.   In the face of all we could put in the basket of “learning loss,” the educators at Bailey reconstructed their interactions and their expectations to experience success for themselves and their students …. Yes, success (or at least substantial improvement) in test scores, but success understood far more broadly and deeply to incorporate mental health, social and emotional capacity, academic achievement, and growth in intelligence. Listen to four Bailey students speak for themselves about why they were there, what they remember, and how they have made their way – with stories still very much being told.   Success for these young adults is not so much about achievement understood in test-based terms as about who these young people are and why we might feel good about who the Bailey students have become and are still becoming.  You will meet Damisha, Brandon, Maia, and Zee, all in their early 20s.   As you’ll see, their stories differ but what they share is that Bailey, a middle school, was a place where they experienced both love and limits.  It felt to them like a place where they could grow and develop. 00:00  A meditation on “success” in school  Barbara Stengel 04:50   Introduction,  Barbara Stengel 06:03   Damisha Hanserd, transfer from KIPP and East, who stayed through 8th grade The power of Black teachers Getting in trouble and academic achievement Education at Bailey better than East Juggling college, the pandemic, and responsibility as a mom Bailey shaped me 17:31   Brandon Tok, transfer from Rutherford County, who spent his 8th grade year From the “best” high school, leaving college for a family business Diversity among students at Bailey Influential, even “life-saving,” teachers Parental presence matters Bailey’s social impact 31:00   Maia Black, arrived in 6th grade and left after 7th “Trouble” moved her to Bailey Athletics as a form of self-discipline Student diversity at Bailey Teachers wanting to understand Admin working together for student success All that Bailey had to offer 47:25   Zionna Jennings, at Bailey before the Sawyer/Jasper era When people believed in me On my own and overwhelmed Love and limits – and a new family Mental health in disadvantaged communities Bailey as a school community for “student teachers” (Not) Reaching for the stars 64:20   Wrap-up and lead in to Bailey’s being closed  Barbara Stengel, Christian Sawyer In this seventh episode, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can find sources to find out more about these at our website:  www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com). Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon.   The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. Our theme music is Midnight Blues by lemonmusicstudio.  Occasional music for this episode includes Soul Food (https://studio.youtube.com/channel/UCxGZb2KmWJ7pBSYpmiOY0Jw/music) by Chris Haugen and Good Friends by Caffeine Creek Band. New episodes will drop on the last day of the month.  You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and Stitcher, and nearly anywhere else you find your podcasts. If you appreciate what you hear, please subscribe to Chasing Bailey, leave us a review, share with your friends by word of mouth, and post on social media.   Follow us on Instagram:       https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/ (https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/) Twitter:           https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey (https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey) Tiktok:            https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) Facebook:       https://www.facebook.com/Chasing-Bailey-107279178665337/ (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) More information will be available at www.chasingbaileypod.com/home (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/home). We look forward to your comments and questions at Chasingbaileypod@gmail.com.

14. 

    6 Nov 2022

    Allyship at its Best? Black Teachers Lead the Way

    October 31, 2022 Chasing Bailey Episode 6: Allyship at its Best? Black Teachers Lead the Way Have we unintentionally reinforced a stereotype about Black and white teachers in the last two episodes?  In a majority Black school, do the Black teachers carry the social-emotional weight (and expertise), while the white teachers are the instructional and academic experts?  That’s definitely not the story we wanted to tell about Bailey, so in this episode, we address the issue head on, inviting teachers and teacher leaders to talk about how Black and white learned to work together by working together over time and by facing “difficult conversations” about race head on.   We take up the difference between “transactional allyship” at the beginning that morphed into “allyship in action” as trust and understanding developed.   We look at the sometimes invisible labor that Black educators are asked to take up (and what it costs) and the phenomenon of epistemic injustice that Black educators experience all too often. 00:00  Introduction: Allyship across Color Lines, Barbara Stengel 03:20   The Danger in Narratives of Erasure Global Literacy Team Leader Whitney Bradley, Stengel 07:18   The Costs of Allyship Exceptional Education Team Leader LaKeisha Harding, Math Team Leader Kelly Aldridge Boyd 11:57   Invisible Labor  Stengel, Karen Dorris Wolfson, Bradley, Harding 19:14   Acknowledging the Critical Role of Black Educators  Stengel, ELA Teacher Charlsie Wigley, STEM Coordinator Julie Hasfjord 25:20   But Missing What It Cost Them?   Stengel, Math Teacher Madison Knowe 27:01   Epistemic Injustice  Stengel, Aldridge, Bradley 31:34   From Transactional Allyship to Allyship in Action  Stengel, Bradley, Aldridge 37:58   How Leadership Shapes Allyship  Harding, Aldridge, Stengel, Wigley 42:02   The Sawyer-Jasper Model  Stengel, Bradley 45:40   Not Afraid to Talk About Race  Stengel, Aldridge, Resident Alex Casarez, Knowe 52:40   Allyship at its Best  Stengel, Science Team Leader Sarah Prawel 56:57   Next Time:  What Success Looked Like in the Lives of Scholars In this sixth episode, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can find sources to find out more about these at our website:  www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com). Chasing Bailey is a podcast about a group of teachers, leaders, and others who dedicated themselves to changing the fortunes of a failing middle school in Nashville TN from 2012 to 2016. They succeeded, but their achievement was bittersweet. In 2016, the district closed that school. Still, those who were there knew they had stumbled onto something special, some important educational truths that might help all of us find our way out of the morass that COVID 19 has left us in. Our Host is Barb Stengel, a retired professor of educational practice at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College. She is a self-described fan of the Bailey experiment. Between 2012 and 2016, Barb spent one day a week at Bailey, coordinating the school’s collaboration with Peabody, and serving as an informal cheerleader while also learning from this remarkable effort. She knew early on it was a story worth telling. So over the past year, Barb has spent time with dozens of staff, students, parents, and district administrators who were eager to talk about their experiences. Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon.   The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. Our theme music is Midnight Blues by lemonmusicstudio.  Occasional music for this episode includes Soul Food (https://studio.youtube.com/channel/UCxGZb2KmWJ7pBSYpmiOY0Jw/music) by Chris Haugen and Good Friends by Caffeine Creek Band. New episodes will drop on the last day of the month.  You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and Stitcher, and nearly anywhere else you find your podcasts. If you appreciate what you hear, please subscribe to Chasing Bailey, leave us a review, share with your friends by word of mouth, and post on social media.   Follow us on Instagram:       https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/ (https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/) Twitter:           https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey (https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey) Tiktok:            https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) Facebook:       https://www.facebook.com/Chasing-Bailey-107279178665337/ (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) More information will be available at www.chasingbaileypod.com/home (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/home). We look forward to your comments and questions at Chasingbaileypod@gmail.com.

15. 

    30 Sept 2022

    To Fail Safely: Teachers’ Creativity as the Lifeblood of Learning

    September 30, 2022 Chasing Bailey Episode 5: To Fail Safely:  Teachers’ Creativity as the Lifeblood of Learning In this fifth episode of Chasing Bailey, we consider the question of curriculum.  What was the curriculum that powered academic success at Bailey and how did it come to be?  The short answer is that teachers created the curriculum on the fly by focusing laser-like on their students’ needs and prior understanding, freed up to do that by a principal who saw brilliance in the teachers and the scholars.  Turns out he was right … 00:00  Introduction:  Teachers’ Creativity as the Lifeblood of Learning 02:06   What about Curriculum? Barbara Stengel 04:06   Failing Safely: STEM at Bailey  Stengel, Teacher/Resident Madison Knowe, Teacher Chrissy Philo, STEM Coordinator Julie Hasfjord, Principal Christian Sawyer 11:36   What Was the Curriculum at Bailey?  Stengel, Philo, Knowe, Hasfjord, Sawyer, Laufman 25:23   Bound by Testing??  Stengel, Sawyer, Knowe, Philo, Hasfjord, ELA Resident Kenan Kerr 31:32   Global Literacy   Stengel, Sawyer, Philo, Kerr 36:35   Voice and Choice as a Path to Rigor  Knowe, Hasfjord, Philo, Sawyer 39:16   Voice, Choice, and STEM Electives  Hasfjord, Sawyer, Philo, Knowe 43:29   Accepting Their Own Brilliance Stengel, Math Resident Sam Fout 45:25   A Focus on Acceleration: Algebra for All  Stengel, Knowe, Sawyer, Math Leader Kelly Aldridge 53: 41  Teachers Really Were the Lifeblood of the Curriculum  Stengel 54:54   Next Time:  Hearing from the Bailey Scholars In this fifth episode, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can find sources to find out more about these at our website:  www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com). Our Host is Barb Stengel, a retired professor of educational practice at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College. She is a self-described fan of the Bailey experiment. Between 2012 and 2016, Barb spent one day a week at Bailey, coordinating the school’s collaboration with Peabody, and serving as an informal cheerleader while also learning from this remarkable effort. She knew early on it was a story worth telling. So over the past year, Barb has spent time with dozens of staff, students, parents, and district administrators who were eager to talk about their experiences. Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon.   The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. Our theme music is Midnight Blues by lemonmusicstudio.  Occasional music for this episode includes Blues Vibes (https://pixabay.com/music/?utm_source=link-attribution&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=music&utm_content=3780%22) by Michael Kobrin. New episodes will drop on the last day of the month.  You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and Stitcher, and nearlyl anywhere else you find your podcasts. If you appreciate what you hear, please subscribe to Chasing Bailey, leave us a review, share with your friends by word of mouth, and post on social media.   Follow us on Instagram:       https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/ (https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/) Twitter:           https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey (https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey) Tiktok:            https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) Facebook:       https://www.facebook.com/Chasing-Bailey-107279178665337/ (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) More information will be available at www.chasingbaileypod.com/home (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/home). We look forward to your comments and questions at Chasingbaileypod@gmail.com.

16. 

    31 Aug 2022

    Love and Limits: Re-making Culture for/and Learning at Bailey

    August 31, 2022 Chasing Bailey Episode 4: Love and Limits: Re-making Culture for/and Learning at Bailey In this fourth episode of Chasing Bailey, we turn to the critical issue of culture for learning and growth.  We think about the transformation that supported the Bailey shift from “persistently dangerous” and academically unmoored in 2011 to solidly “Satisfactory” on the district’s School Assessment Measure in 2015.  That movement was spearheaded by Chief of Culture Claire Jasper who, with her “Culture Team,” steered the change based on “Love and Limits.” 00:00  Introduction:  Love and Limits: Re-making Culture for/and Learning at Bailey 04:25   What “Love and Limits” Looks Like  Chief of Culture Dr. Claire Jasper, Narrator Barbara Stengel 22:10   The Socio-political and Educational History of Bailey Middle School  Stengel, Teacher Leader Whitney Bradley Weathers, Principal Christian Sawyer 27:20   Critical, Pragmatic, Idealistic, Progressive Vision  Sawyer 29:50   The Culture Team and How it Operated  Dean Yolanda Porter, Social Worker Keith Ekhator, Communities in Schools Coordinator Kevin Haggard, Stengel 36:43   Love and Limits but not ‘Muscle’:  How to Circumvent the School to Prison Pipeline through Trauma-Informed and Restorative Practices  Porter, Haggard, Ekhator, Stengel, Resident Kenan Kerr, Resident Laura Laufman, Science Teacher Cassie Beasley 44:01   An Intentional Culture of Respect, Shared Beliefs, and Laughter Counselor April Roberts, Dean Art Taylor, Haggard, Stengel 49:15   Resistance?? Math Teacher Leader Karen Dorris Wolfson, Math Teacher Kristin Petrony, Stengel 54:25   Next Episode: Sparking Responsibility and Re-imaging Curriculum, Stengel In this fourth episode, there are references to a variety of social, educational and historical news and commentary. You can find sources to find out more about these at our website:  www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com). Our Host is Barb Stengel, a retired professor of educational practice at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College. She is a self-described fan of the Bailey experiment. Between 2012 and 2016, Barb spent one day a week at Bailey, coordinating the school’s collaboration with Peabody, and serving as an informal cheerleader while also learning from this remarkable effort. She knew early on it was a story worth telling. So over the past year, Barb has spent time with dozens of staff, students, parents, and district administrators who were eager to talk about their experiences. Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon.   The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. Our theme music is Midnight Blues by lemonmusicstudio.  Occasional music for this episode includes Good Friends by Caffeine Creek Band and Soul Food (https://studio.youtube.com/channel/UCxGZb2KmWJ7pBSYpmiOY0Jw/music) by Chris Haugen. New episodes will drop on the last day of the month.  You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and Stitcher, and nearly anywhere else you find your podcasts. If you appreciate what you hear, please subscribe to Chasing Bailey, leave us a review, share with your friends by word of mouth, and post on social media.   Follow us on Instagram:       https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/ (https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/) Twitter:           https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey (https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey) Tiktok:            https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) Facebook:       https://www.facebook.com/Chasing-Bailey-107279178665337/ (https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey) More information will be available at www.chasingbaileypod.com/home (http://www.chasingbaileypod.com/home). We look forward to your comments and questions at Chasingbaileypod@gmail.com.

17. 

    2 Aug 2022

    Locating Leadership at the Heart of Teaching and Learning

    July 31, 2022 Chasing Bailey Episode 3: Locating Leadership at the Heart of Teaching and Learning The third episode of Chasing Bailey looks at how teacher leadership multiplies the point and power of teams in schools.  Four teacher leaders – Kelly Aldridge Boyd , LeKeisha Harding, Whitney Bradley Weathers, and Lindsey Nelson -- describe their experience and outline how they grew into their roles. Host Barb Stengel links the work of these teacher leaders to the actions of the school principal, Christian Sawyer, highlighting how his willingness to let go was as important as his efforts to guide and support.  In the end, we are left to wonder what love’s got to do with it. 00:00  Introduction:  Locating Leadership at the Heart of Teaching and Learning 04:37 The Roles and Responsibilities of Teacher Leaders at Bailey, Kelly Aldridge Boyd,  LeKeisha Harding, Whitney Bradley Weathers, and Lindsey Nelson with Narrator Barb Stengel 11:05 How Much Time Were Teachers Leaders Teaching Kids?  Aldridge Boyd, Harding, Bradley Weathers, and Nelson with Stengel 21:36 What Difference(s) Did Teacher Leaders Make for Scholars and Colleagues?  Aldridge Boyd, Harding, Bradley Weathers, and Nelson with Stengel 30:54 How Were Teachers Leaders Recruited, Encouraged, and Developed?  Aldridge Boyd, Harding, Bradley Weathers, and Nelson with Stengel 45:30 Bailey as a Crucible for Leadership Aldridge Boyd, Harding, Bradley Weathers, and Nelson with Stengel 52:19 Principal Sawyer as the “Source” for Teacher Leadership?  Janita Sanders, Conley Flynn, Sarah Prawel, Laura Lauffman, Greta Knudsen 59:35 Love and Learning at Bailey Student Jasmine Summers At the core of this episode is a 90-minute interview with the four teacher leaders named above. Nearly half of the interview found its way into this episode.  However, the interview was so lively and rich that we are making the entire audio file available for those who want to follow up on the insights of these four educators.  Extended conversations about how race figured in their work and about how we might be reconstructing schools post-pandemic can be found toward the end of the interview.   To listen to the entire discussion, go to www.chasingbaileypod.com (http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chasingbaileypod.com%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AOvVaw3AwckD17TpKXt4FL6O5Hhv). Our Host is Barb Stengel, a retired professor of educational practice at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College. She is a self-described fan of the Bailey experiment. Between 2012 and 2016, Barb spent one day a week at Bailey, coordinating the school’s collaboration with Peabody, and serving as an informal cheerleader while also learning from this remarkable effort. She knew early on it was a story worth telling. So over the past year, Barb has spent time with dozens of staff, students, parents, and district administrators who were eager to talk about their experiences. Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon.   The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. Our theme music is Midnight Blues by lemonmusicstudio.  Occasional music includes SundayBlues (https://www.chasingbaileypod.com/episodes/episode-three#BAD_URL) by Francis McDonald. New episodes will drop on the last day of the month.  You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and Stitcher, and nearly anywhere else you find your podcasts. If you appreciate what you hear, please subscribe to Chasing Bailey, leave us a review, share with your friends by word of mouth, and post on social media.   Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chasing_bailey/ (https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Fchasing_bailey%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AOvVaw06lhFVU0a3HvCvIisobsG2) Twitter: https://twitter.com/chasing_bailey (https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fchasing_bailey&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AOvVaw1oAe96_5wxE6bvHtRtDaYx) Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@chasing_bailey (https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiktok.com%2F%40chasing_bailey&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AOvVaw1zwkmOqFwS3w_J5yh0GbOm) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Chasing-Bailey-107279178665337/ (https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiktok.com%2F%40chasing_bailey&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AOvVaw1zwkmOqFwS3w_J5yh0GbOm) More information will be available at www.chasingbaileypod.com/home (http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chasingbaileypod.com%2Fhome&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AOvVaw0isSH62wLufjnGc-vy5ich). We look forward to your comments and questions at Chasingbaileypod@gmail.com.

18. 

    30 Jun 2022

    Teaching is a Team Sport

    This second episode of Chasing Bailey explores the first of several characteristics that marked the practice of education at Bailey: that is, teaming. Content teachers, special educators, teacher leaders, paraprofessionals, and residents learning to teach collaborated on both grade level and content-focused teams to encourage the growth and development of every scholar. Host Barb Stengel documents the difficulties in learning to team well and the remarkable successes that resulted from persistence and commitment. She focuses not only on the structure of the teams, but also on the infrastructure that teaming made possible: 1) a relentless focus on students’ growth, 2) a consistent care for teachers and all staff, 3) the space for both collaboration and autonomy, and 4) an expansive understanding of inclusion. In the end, teaming at Bailey included educators and scholars in a shared focus on learning for all. There are post-pandemic lessons in this for all of us. 00:00 Introduction: Teaching is a Team Sport 03:52 The Power of the Teacher Team. Principal Christian Sawyer 05:45 Getting going with Teaming in the 7th and 8thGrade, Team Lead Kelly Latham, Counselor April Roberts, and Resident Amanda West 13:40 Teaming in the 5th and 6thGrades. Team Lead Jennifer Hurst, Exceptional Educator/Dean Art Taylor, Kristin Petrony and Laura Laufman 21:40 Teaming and Collaboration Resident Alex Casarez 23:55 Shared and Sharp Focus on Scholars. Exceptional Educator Janita Sanders, Resident Kenan Kerr, TFA Corps Member Susan Benear, Student Zee Jennings, and ELA Teacher Leader Whitney Bradley Weathers 32:36 Team Structure and Teacher Supports. West, ELA Teacher Charlsie Wigley, Science Teacher Cherifa McDowell 37:30 Teams, Collaboration and Autonomy. Casarez, Math Lead Karen Dorris Wolfson 40:58 An Expansive Understanding of Inclusion. Hurst, Taylor, Petrony, Exceptional Educator Keisha Harding 46:38 The Scholars Were ON the Team! Host Barb Stengel 47:09 Teaming May Not Be for Everyone. Latham and Beasley 50:35 Logistical Gains, Social Justice Gains. Sawyer 51:22 Building Capacity Toward Teacher Leadership. Wigley Our Host is Barb Stengel, a retired professor of educational practice at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College. She is a self-described fan of the Bailey experiment. Between 2012 and 2016, Barb spent one day a week at Bailey, coordinating the school’s collaboration with Peabody, and serving as an informal cheerleader while also learning from this remarkable effort. She knew early on it was a story worth telling. So over the past year, Barb has spent time with dozens of staff, students, parents, and district administrators who were eager to talk about their experiences. Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon. The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. For full Show Notes visit: https://www.chasingbaileypod.com/episodes/episode-two (https://www.chasingbaileypod.com/episodes/episode-two)

19. 

    31 May 2022

    "Let's Remember Who We Are": The Bailey Story

    This first episode of Chasing Bailey sketches the four-year story of an effort to transform a “failing” public school in Nashville, TN, only to have success turn sour when the district office determined that the underserved students at the school -- mostly poor and mostly Black -- had to be moved out of the place that had become their educational home. Host Barb Stengel introduces us to several central players and to the important infrastructure elements – teaming, teacher leadership, residents, relationships, race, culture, curriculum, collective responsibility, and equity – that made a difference at Bailey, and that will be explored in depth in monthly episodes to come. 00:00 Introduction: What is a good school? 03:28 Why tell the Chasing Bailey Story? Resident Julia Konrad 06:11 “Every single day, remember who we are.” Principal Christian Sawyer and Teacher Leader Karen Dorris Wolfson 10:41 Last on the list and “persistently dangerous”: Bailey in 2012. Sawyer and Dorris 13:55 Mental health and emotional needs at Bailey. Counselor April Roberts 15:54 Prioritizing teacher talent: Recruitment, development, retention. Sawyer and Dorris 19:25 Getting started: Good intentions but not much else. Sawyer and Dorris 21:05 External constraints. Metro Nashville Public Schools IZone Director Alan Coverstone 23:56 Making plans. Sawyer and Host Barb Stengel 25:00 Teaming. Exceptional Educator and Teacher Leader LeKeisha Harding 28:13 Teacher residents. Dorris and Stengel 29:43 Unpacking race at Bailey. Sawyer, Dorris, and Teacher Leader Whitney Bradley Weathers 35:50 Measuring success. Sawyer 37:03 Chief of Culture. Dr. Claire Jasper 40:51 Closing Bailey and moving the students, despite success. Sawyer and Dorris 42:48 Why “Chasing Bailey?” Sawyer and Dorris 44:47 What was Bailey missing at the start? Sawyer and Dorris 48:35 Relationships! Student Damisha Hanserd Chasing Bailey is hosted and narrated by Dr. Barbara Stengel, Vanderbilt University. This episode was edited and co-produced by Brenna Fallon. The executive producer is Dr. Lowery Woodall, Millersville University of Pennsylvania. For full Show Notes visit: https://www.chasingbaileypod.com/episodes/episode-one (https://www.chasingbaileypod.com/episodes/episode-one)

Reach and audience

Public platform figures. Ratings count people who left a rating, not total listeners.

Apple Podcasts (US)

5.0 / 5

11 ratings

Spotify

5.0 / 5

23 ratings