Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
Formal Objects: On Beauty and Sustainability | Dr. Robert Hariman
Why do we often assume that fighting climate change requires a life of scarcity, asceticism, and sacrificing abundance, when nature itself is wildly generative and beautiful?
Northwestern University's Owen L. Coon Professor of Argumentation and Debate, Dr. Robert Hariman, joins host PJ Wehry on Chasing Leviathan to discuss how we can rethink our approach to the existential crisis of the Anthropocene.
Dr. Hariman explores the intersection of aesthetic knowledge and environmental survival in his book, Formal Objects: On Beauty and Sustainability. They examine how the mentality that got us into our current ecological mess isn't sufficient to get us out, and how embracing a new, ecological "formalism" might just be the key to designing a world we actually want to live in.
In this conversation they explore:
Why global warming is a symptom of a larger systemic crisis of modernity, and why we need a new conceptual vocabulary to survive it.
The history of "formalism"—why it was cast aside by academia 50 years ago, and why reinvigorating the study of form is vital for building a just and sustainable society.
How beauty and utility are not opposites, but actually converge to create fitness in both natural organisms and cultural artifacts.
The importance of "aesthetic knowledge"—an embodied, relational way of knowing that complements modern science and prevents us from treating nature merely as a mute object tailored for exploitation.
Why a truly sustainable society cannot be built on scarcity models or ugly, ascetic design, but must lean into nature's incredible abundance and joy.
The dangers of monocultural regimes in design and architecture, and how true formal processes rely heavily on diversity and continuous generation.
Practical ways to cultivate everyday mindfulness by paying attention to the forms and local ecology around us, including a look at Central Florida's water table crisis and the impracticality of suburban lawns.
This is a conversation for anyone interested in environmentalism, architecture, philosophy, and the humanities who wants to understand how beauty and better design can help us navigate the climate crisis and build a thriving future.
Make sure to check out Dr. Hariman's book: Formal Objects: On Beauty and Sustainability: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853780/
Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.
These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.
Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Robert Hariman
1:26 Why Modernity is in Crisis and Systems are Breaking Down
5:04 What is Formalism and the Convergence of Beauty and Utility
14:22 Examples of Formal Objects in Nature and Culture
16:54 The Importance of Esthetic Knowledge and Embodied Cognition
28:32 Central Florida Water Crisis and the Problem with Suburban Lawns
31:42 Escaping the Myth of Ecology and Scarcity Models
35:37 Why Use the Term Anthropocene Over Late Stage Capitalism
44:18 Why a Truly Sustainable Society Cannot Be Ugly
46:11 Concluding Thoughts
15 Sept 2026
To Taste: On Cooking and the Good Life | Dr. Scott Samuelson
Why have we reduced the profound, human experience of eating into a sterile game of counting calories, optimizing nutrition, and "maxing" our productivity?
Iowa State University's professor of practice, Dr. Scott Samuelson, joins host PJ Weary to discuss how the simple act of cooking can serve as a profound paradigm for leading a meaningful life.
Dr. Samuelson explores the deep intersections of culinary arts and philosophical inquiry in his book, To Taste: On Cooking and the Good Life. They examine how true nourishment isn't found in abstract nutritional labels or industrial farming models, but rather requires active engagement, tradition, and shared human connection.
In this conversation they explore:
How conversations about Italian food with a Hegel scholar and moonlighting as a sous chef at a farm-to-table French restaurant revealed that cooking and philosophy are fundamentally the same pursuit.
The dangers of the "barbarism of reflection"—how abstracting food into mere data points (like calories or gut biomes) strips away the cultural and relational essence of eating.
Why the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead's stages of education—romance, discipline, and synthesis—perfectly mirror the journey of becoming a skilled cook and developing a personal style.
The concept of playing the "Dodgeball of Evil" versus planting a "Garden of the Good," and why trying to be perfectly pure in our food ethics is less effective than actively growing honest practices around us.
The problem with the modern obsession of "maxing" and optimizing our lives like industrial machines, rather than growing like diverse, resilient ecosystems.
A poignant lesson from end-of-life care: why asking "what does a good day look like?" almost always centers around the simple joy of sharing a leisurely meal with loved ones.
This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, culinary arts, and intentional living who wants to reconnect with the rich, sensory experiences that make life truly worth living.
Make sure to check out Dr. Samuelson's book: To Taste: On Cooking and the Good Life: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853667/
Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.
These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.
Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Scott Samuelson
1:06 How Moonlighting as a Sous Chef Inspired a Philosophy Book
4:22 Why Cooking is the Perfect Paradigm for a Meaningful Life
7:44 Alfred North Whitehead and the Rhythm of Romance and Discipline
11:27 The Barbarism of Reflection and the Dangers of Abstracting Food
14:30 Why Reducing Meals to Pure Nutrition Harms Human Connection
17:20 How the Culture of Maxing and Optimization Weaponizes Health
19:17 Why Spending Leisurely Time in the Kitchen Defines a Good Day
25:53 Discovering the Romance of Culinary Arts through Lebanese Traditions
32:47 The Deep Intersubjective Meaning Behind Seasoning to Taste
36:27 Sourcing Fresh Ingredients and the True Ethics of Farm-to-Table Cooking
41:15 Why Cultivating the Garden of the Good Beats the Dodgeball of Evil
45:41 The Dangers of Monoculture Farming and the Industrial Human Model
49:49 Closing Thoughts
1 Sept 2026
A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us | Dr. Todd May
Why does modern morality often feel like an exhausting, impossible burden rather than an inspiring way to live? Are we all required to be perfect "moral exemplars," or is there a strong philosophical case for simply living a decent life?
Dr. Todd May, the Nielsen Professor of the Humanities at Warren Wilson College (Asheville, NC), joins host PJ Weary to discuss how we can rethink our moral obligations and expectations in a highly demanding world.
Dr. May explores the realistic boundaries of human goodness in his book, A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us. They examine how genuine decency doesn't demand extreme altruism or austere self-sacrifice—like donating a kidney to a stranger just to maximize utility—but rather requires a "moral gracefulness" that allows us to care for others while still enjoying rich, meaningful human lives.
In this conversation they explore:
🔷 Why the extreme utilitarian demands of philosophers like Peter Singer pushed Dr. May to write a practical moral framework designed for "sane people."
🔷 Susan Wolf's concept of "Moral Saints," and why a world full of perfect moral exemplars would actually force us to abandon deeply meaningful human experiences like art, music, and close friendship.
🔷 The crucial difference between altruism (strict self-sacrifice) and decency, and how to carry your morality as an inspiring opportunity rather than an exhausting lifelong burden.
🔷 Thomas Nagel's concept of "conditional moral luck," and how specific historic circumstances, like the Civil Rights movement in the South or today's climate crisis, can temporarily call us to step up beyond basic decency.
🔷 How to expand your circle of sympathy (borrowing from David Hume) starting with those closest to you in everyday life, and moving outward to future generations and non-human animals.
🔷 The concept of "backward causality" and how the climate legacy of the Boomer generation directly impacts their moral standing with Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
🔷 The profound importance of curiosity and visibility in ethics, from the ethics of dog ownership to the simple, humanizing act of looking unhoused individuals in the face.
🔷 How to practically navigate politics and road rage without burning out or losing your own humanity.
This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, ethics, and healthy living who wants to understand how to be a genuinely good person and improve their local communities without sacrificing their own well-being or burning out in a polarized world.
Make sure to check out Dr. May's book: A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us: https://www.amazon.com/dp/022660974X
Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.
These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.
Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Todd May
3:17 Defining Decency and the Problem With Moral Exemplars
3:43 Lessons on Moral Expectations From Teresa of Avila and Elijah
7:40 Susan Wolf and the Hidden Cost of Being a Moral Saint
11:14 Altruism vs. Decency and Finding Moral Grace
14:30 Cultural Decency Norms in Copenhagen vs. the United States
15:50 Thomas Nagel and the Realities of Conditional Moral Luck
20:00 David Hume and Widening Our Circle of Sympathy
22:20 Practical Decency and the Controversial Coffee Cup Example
24:45 Why Curiosity is the True Foundation of Moral Decency
28:40 Extending Ethics to Future Generations and Non-Human Animals
32:00 David Boonin and Our Moral Obligations to the Dead
33:00 Climate Change and the Boomer Generation's Moral Legacy
35:40 Moral Individualism and the Ethics of Animal Rights
39:15 The Complexities of Factory Farming and Real-World Policy
40:40 Navigating Modern Politics With Decency
44:40 Analyzing Personal Narratives and Road Rage Values
50:50 Practical Tips for Living a More Decent Life Today
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Spotify
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