A podcast for church leaders who want to grow but don’t have time to read every book. Join authors Jonathan Malm and Jason Young as they break down leadership books chapter by chapter, sharing practical insights and real-life ministry applications along the way. Whether you’re reading along or just listening in, this is your go-to resource for becoming a better leader... One conversation at a time.
The 4 Ways to Handle Difficult People at Church (Only One Works)
There are four ways to handle a difficult person at church: avoid them, change them, cancel them, or understand them. Three of those feel easier. Only one actually works. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young kick off a new book, How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and dig into Chapter 1.
Everyone has someone in mind when they hear that title. A volunteer who never shows up on time. A pastor who doesn't respect your ideas. A coworker whose voice alone sets you off. But the first chapter has a twist: you're complicated too. 74% of people think they're easier to work with than average, and the math on that doesn't work. Jonathan shares how his dad helped him see that his frustration with a pushy youth pastor was mostly about his own insecurity, and Jason explains why "understand them" feels so unfair even though it's the only option with a real payoff.
In this episode we cover:
- Why in church world the difficult person is usually a volunteer, not a coworker
- The difference between working with complicated people and staying in a toxic environment
- Why church isn't the only way to be in ministry
- The five traits people associate most with complicated coworkers
- How personality, culture, and values (think DISC) make people seem difficult when they're just different
- Judge me by my intentions, I'll judge you by your actions: the unfair scale we all use
- Why complicated doesn't mean bad
- The question to ask yourself: why does this frustrate me so much?
- The four options: avoid, change, cancel, or understand
- 95% of people think they're self-aware. Research says 10 to 15% are.
- Why your default muscle (avoiding, fighting, or fixing) is costing you the same energy as understanding would
6 Oct 2026
The 6-Month Rule for Surviving Any Church Staff Transition
Getting promoted over your friends is one of the hardest transitions on church staff. On Friday they were your peers. On Monday they report to you. In the final episode of our Likable Leader series, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young talk through Chapter 11, Forged in the Fire, and what happens to your leadership when things get hard: conflict, disappointment, transitions, and chaos.
Anyone can be likable when the church is healthy and everyone agrees with you. The real test comes when a friend doesn't get the promotion you got, when a volunteer talks trash behind your back, or when everyone in your house is sick and you snap at your team. Jason shares the story of being promoted over his close friend Andrew and how they stayed friends for over a decade. Jonathan explains why leaders have to be willing to be the bad guy, and why half the chaos in ministry is self-inflicted.
In this episode we cover:
- Passive likability vs. active likability (and why most leaders borrow theirs from the organization)
- How to lead former peers without losing the friendship
- Why the relationship has to change when you get promoted, and that's okay
- Communication, humility, and respect: the three keys to the peer-to-leader transition
- Why your team has the right to respond badly, but you don't - The six-month rule for every transition
- Why change is really about loss
- Don't make your team pay for the chaos around you
- Using the Enneagram to spot how you behave when you're unhealthy
- Why emotions are signals, not leaders
- Self-inflicted chaos and being willing to be the bad guy
- The one question to ask your team: what does it feel like to be led by me?
30 Sept 2026
Is Fun Killing Your Team's Productivity? (No, and Here's the Proof)
Is having fun at work killing your church's productivity? Short answer: no. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young walk through Chapter 10 of their book Likable Leader and take apart the idea that fun and productivity are enemies. If your church staff culture feels tense, quiet, or overly serious, it's probably not because your team lacks personality. Something is blocking the fun, and there's a good chance it's coming from leadership.
People naturally have fun together. Put strangers in a park and eventually someone pulls out a frisbee. So when your church staff or volunteer team isn't enjoying the work, that's a diagnostic sign. Jonathan and Jason break down the three ways leaders unintentionally kill fun, share stories from highly productive teams that played hard, and explain why likable leaders don't manufacture fun. They make room for it.
In this episode we cover:
- The three ways leaders kill fun: punishing frivolity, fear of looking unproductive, and fear of doing something wrong
- Why the "enough of that" line in the sand makes your team afraid to relax
- How a highly profitable company played Call of Duty every day at 4:30
- Why a foosball table doesn't mean you have a fun culture (don't confuse an activity with a culture)
- Why church leaders should stop policing whether their staff is working hard enough
- The myth that work is serious and fun is an escape from work
- Why forced icebreakers and awkward team building backfire
- The Argentine asado and what it teaches about preparing vs. connecting
- The one question every leader should ask: what does it feel like to work with you?
- Why some small groups connect and others never do
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