CMA Connect

About CMA Connect

Welcome to CMA Connect - the voice of the Canadian marketing community. Join us for empowering discussions with industry leaders about the rapidly changing world of marketing.

Publisher

Canadian Marketing Association

Category

business · business

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

27 Sept 2021

Latest episode

15 Sept 2026

Latest episodes

109 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   15 Sept 2026

   EP77- Elevating AI to a Fundamental Shift with Wanda Fong

   What happens when the traditional marketing funnel collapses? In the next episode of CMA Connect, host Alison Simpson sits down with Wanda Fong, country manager for Meta's Global Business Group in Canada, to explore how artificial intelligence (AI) is fundamentally rewiring consumer discovery. Leveraging a rare background in computer engineering and interpersonal communications, Wanda explains why marketers must stop treating AI as a simple "productivity hack" and utilize it to reach entirely new audiences. 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Speaker 1 Welcome to CMA Connect Canada s marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO Allison Simpson. 00:00:24.760 — 00:01:48.670 · Speaker 2 Today's conversation focuses on a question worth sitting with. What happens when the framework that we've built marketing around starts to stop working? So for decades, we've really operated inside the funnel. Awareness leads to consideration. Consideration leads to purchase. Linear. Sequential. Measurable. We built careers around that logic. But right now that funnel in many ways is collapsing, and it's happening faster than most marketers realise. Today's consumers aren't always searching for products with intent anymore. They're discovering them through AI powered feeds that surface things they didn't even know they wanted. Discovery and purchase aren't just happening in the same moment. And if you're only planning campaigns around the old funnel, you're already behind. So to help us make sense of this shift, I'm very happy to welcome Wanda Fong, country manager for Metas Global Business Group in Canada. Juan, this career is a fascinating blend. She started with a computer engineering degree from the University of Waterloo. Spent years at Microsoft and now leads Meta's business across Canada. That technical foundation gives her a really rare lens on what's actually happening under the hood of AI driven marketing. So today we're going to be unpacking how AI is rewiring consumer discovery, what it means for Canadian brands competing on a national and global stage, and how marketers can stop treating AI like a productivity hack and start seeing it as the fundamental shift that it actually is. Wanda, welcome to CMA connect. I am really looking forward to our conversation today. Thanks so. 00:01:48.670 — 00:01:50.510 · Speaker 3 Much. I'm so excited to be here. 00:01:50.710 — 00:02:07.130 · Speaker 2 I want to you started as a computer engineer at Waterloo. So writing code, solving very technical problems. Now you're leading a business that's fundamentally about human behaviour and persuasion. What was the moment you realised that your engineering background was actually an advantage in understanding marketing, not a detour from it? 00:02:07.170 — 00:03:16.360 · Speaker 3 I wish I would have said that I had planned this all, but when I started and went into computer engineering, not to date myself, Facebook back then didn't even exist. So I can't say that it was a grand master plan, but when I think back to my time computer engineering, the focus really was on systems design, understanding what issues are, how to break them down, and how to find repeatable, scalable solutions. But also, when I was starting to look at electives, I took an interpersonal communications class, and I just absolutely fell in love with it, to the point that I actually ended up with a double degree in both interpersonal communications and computer engineering. So I guess I've always really loved the intersection of art and science, and I've just been so grateful because meta is the perfect playground for me to really be able to unpack one of our most complex problems, which is human behaviour and motivation, but be able to do it in a very measured and systematic way. So honestly, this is my dream job and I've just been so honoured to be able to be part of this profession. 00:03:16.400 — 00:03:34.440 · Speaker 2 I didn't realise you had a double major and that's such a perfect and rare combination. It makes you incredibly well-suited for the career that you have built. So I love that you're following where you see opportunity and potential and areas that interest you. And not being as regimented about law. Got this certain degree I should be going this certain path. 00:03:34.480 — 00:03:35.360 · Speaker 3 Exactly. 00:03:35.400 — 00:03:46.320 · Speaker 2 You're also one of the few women leading a major tech platform in Canada. So what's one specific barrier that you hit on your way up that you didn't see coming? And what did you do about it that actually worked? 00:03:46.360 — 00:06:02.950 · Speaker 3 I feel like it's not about a female barrier or any other barrier, but what's most difficult to address is some of the unconscious biases that we may be holding, because those are invisible and in a way harder to unpack and to solve for. And when I say that, what I mean by that is how are people perceiving you as a person that you are? So myself, being a female, being Asian, often having been the youngest person in the room, I would also admit probably a little quieter. Does that come across as a tech leader, as people think about it? Or does that come across as a sales person or a person in advertising? And I think those are all fair questions, and they don't come from a bad place. But people make assumptions every day. We all do. That's how our brains work. And it's important to recognise those and to be able to address them when they need to be corrected or course corrected. But also assuming good intent is really critical in these moments, because I think that often we can put up barriers that potentially don't exist. I think what's worked for me throughout my career in multiple different roles, and what I really enjoy is this focusing on impact and making people successful. That could be my clients. It could be partners. It could also be my leader internally. One of the things that I feel really passionate about is both mentorship and sponsorship. I think those are two critical things as we think about women and being able to lift others in our community. Mentorship is very clear, but sponsorship is really equally, if not more powerful. And to me, sponsorship means speaking about someone, advocating for them and championing them when they're not in the room. I know that throughout my career, I've benefited from sponsors both challenging me to take on new challenges, but also really championing for me and giving me opportunities and rooms that I couldn't represent myself in. So I think identifying those mentors and sponsors and arming them to understand what you're trying to achieve is critically important. 00:06:03.110 — 00:06:18.830 · Speaker 2 That is such an important distinction. So when you have encountered a bias from someone sitting across the table where they might have assumed for whatever reason, that you might not be interested in a role or you weren't the best fit for a role, what have you done to help counter that? 00:06:18.870 — 00:07:11.740 · Speaker 3 I think the most important thing that I go back to is good intent, because it's so easy for us to go down a victimisation rathole, which I fundamentally think is counterproductive. I assume that the person is making these assumptions because haven't been clear enough about the objective I'm trying to reach. And so I believe that if you approach it with good intent and curiosity and ask questions to understand why they feel that way, that is the best way to respond respectfully and also equally with kindness and grace, so that you're not making it feel like it's an adversarial conversation, but really a collaborative conversation to help that audience member understand how that could be beneficial for them and the business goals that they're trying to drive. 00:07:12.180 — 00:07:58.680 · Speaker 2 That's such great advice. It's so easy to get caught up in that I'm not being treated fairly and be more reactive, but actually having a graceful conversation, making it safe for the other person to admit where they might have made a mistake instead of leading to a tough, controversial conversation is absolutely outstanding advice for all of our listeners. Now you're also at the forefront of the AI transformation, so I want to dig into that now, starting with the traditional funnel. So we are starting to see it collapse. And that means marketers can't plan campaigns the way they used to. So typically awareness in week one, month one conversion month to month three. But what's the biggest mistake you're seeing Canadian marketers make as they're trying to adopt now? What should they be doing instead? 00:07:58.720 — 00:09:59.410 · Speaker 3 I mean, when we look at the behaviour, whether you look on Instagram or Facebook or any of the services on meta, it's very clear. First of all, the 3.5 billion consumers on meta all have a different customer journey. And so there is no one size fits all. Some may still follow the sequential journey of awareness, consideration and conversion, and others may transact in one fell swoop with a minute. And so I think the challenge is really being able to adapt to all of the different types of user preferences. And as we both know, there is an expectation for all brands to be able to do that and adapt to their particular preference and style at the end of the day. For me, the biggest challenge for marketers is that I just think our organisational design at this point does not meet the modern day funnel as you talked about it. So if we think of a typical marketing organisation, we're organised by brand potentially consideration and performance, then you overlay that with the different channels, be it social or others, and that just doesn't fit with customer behaviour. If I go on Instagram and I see a great jacket that a creator has worn and I'm just really inspired, I go in, I search for different options. I might chat with the brand and interact with them and ultimately transact. I'm not thinking is that social search or agenda search? I'm not thinking right now, am I in an inspiration mode or am I in a buying mode? But that ultimately is how we're creating creatives, how we're building briefs, and most importantly, how we're incentivising teams and creating success KPIs around campaigns. And I think that creates some systematic challenges around the actual end goal, which is to create customer centric experiences. 00:09:59.810 — 00:10:15.690 · Speaker 2 Now, AI can also be a terrific leveller of the playing field for smaller brands, so I'd love you to walk us through a specific Canadian SM that used AI Power Creative and share what they did, what changed in their results, and what surprised the most about the process? 00:10:16.210 — 00:13:02.810 · Speaker 3 Oh, this is my favourite topic when I think about SMEs and just the wow that they have that moment, that light bulb moment, it's just my favourite. I'll give you a pattern rather than a specific brand, because that we see this time and time again. I think that if we think about the past without AI, Canadian brands who are SMEs and don't have the same army of resources, we're always limited to maybe 1 or 2 creatives, three at best, maybe some video formats if they had available to them, but it was very limited and they would have the resources to maybe refresh their campaign once a year now with metas advantage. Plus, with just those three variations, you can apply that to overnight, change text overlays, change static images to motion video, be able to put in backgrounds, be able to leverage filters, convert them to different formats like real stories feeds. I mean, I could go on and on and those three assets all of a sudden with a toggle becomes 15, 20, 30 assets that can be targeted to different users with different behavioural preferences, as we talked about. And that power of a toggle that's available universally to any business on meta, no matter how large you are. To me, feels truly transformational. Layered on top of that, I think I would be really remiss not to talk about the creator economy as we all talk about, and we all recognise that audiences really trust creators and genuine, authentic message. And so I've really been inspired by small business owners who've been able to stand up as a brand ambassador. And ultimately, I'm willingly I'm glad they become ambassadors of the brand that really drive results, because audiences are interested in why they built the business, how passionate they are about the product, how they thought about the fabric and the design and what their story is. And that's all so compelling. And so, in terms of what surprised these businesses, I think it's twofold. One is a surprise that they were actually the bottleneck. And AI sounds scary a lot of times, but it really could be just the switch of a toggle. And the second is, I think, the power of their ambassadorship, them being able to hold up their phone and talk about their business and why they created it. That story is just so incredibly powerful, and watching them being able to build businesses on the backbone of that story is just incredibly fulfilling. 00:13:03.050 — 00:13:52.490 · Speaker 2 I love that example, and I've seen firsthand when you have a founder of small business owner talking about their why, and the passion was so evident and it couldn't be more authentic. It really is an inspiring way to learn about a product and a business, and ultimately to convert me and many others to want to support the business and certainly purchase. Now, AI is very broad, and that's probably going to be an understatement of the podcast. It's also constantly evolving, and that can really lead to surface level adoption. Whether brands just using it for simple copy iterations instead of really fully leveraging all that it can do. So how can you help marketers understand the difference between as a productivity tool, which is important, versus AI as a fundamental shift in how discovery and personalisation can work at scale, which can absolutely be transformative. 00:13:52.530 — 00:16:00.450 · Speaker 3 First of all, I want to recognise that adoption is the first step, and it's great that companies are leaning in and leveraging AI as a productivity tool, and we shouldn't dismiss that. More than 8 million advertisers right now are already dabbling, and at least using one of Meta's generative AI creative tools. And when I think about productivity tools, it's about being able to create copy faster, multiple variants of creative, as we talked about. But where the limitation is, is it's still doing existing workflows just a little faster and potentially more efficiently. To me, AI is a discovery engine. A skill is a completely different ballgame. It's really about finding customers that you didn't know existed and being able to connect them with brands in a way that you also didn't personally customise. So if I give an example, we talk about having 3.5 billion users on meta. And no matter how large your marketing team is or how unlimited your resources. It's impossible for us to be able to create customer journey specific to each of those clients based on their interactions, but with meta and our AI engine. Over the last year, we've been able to improve our relevance engine, and that means that at scale, we're able to better predict and deliver experiences that match each unique user based on their behaviours and based on their engagements, and continue to learn based off of that. And what we've been able to see is user time has gone up, video review time has gone up, but also efficiency has gone up for brands and advertisers. And that happens with every interaction across meta. So that's what I think of when I think about scaled AI impact. It's this repeated ability to deliver impact and improved impact over time. 00:16:00.770 — 00:16:07.450 · Speaker 2 I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Ernst Cliff team for helping bring CMA connect to our listeners. 00:16:10.370 — 00:16:35.770 · Speaker 2 Ernst Cliff is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design. Ernst Cliff brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results. To learn more about Ernst Cliff Team and Integrated services, visit Ernst Cliff. 00:16:40.410 — 00:16:57.830 · Speaker 2 Now, when we were chatting earlier, you mentioned that every advertiser on meta is actually already using AI and many of them don't realise that. So can you walk us through a Canadian business example? What were they doing manually? What's now AI powered and what actually changed in their results when they made that shift. 00:16:57.830 — 00:18:59.320 · Speaker 3 When I think about an advertiser even two years ago, when they weren't leveraging AI to its full extent, an advertiser would typically define a demographic and age, a set of interests, potentially for a if they're selling sports apparel, let's say, interests in certain sports. And they would provide some creative they think would resonate. And the value proposition for meta was that we would then be able to connect a user with this experience that they've basically created in a linear fashion. Now with AI, when we think about the new experience, it's completely different. We're not only finding people that brands have identified that they think have interests, but also other audiences and other potential customers who show interests in many different ways. This could be that they engage with certain communities or they have a certain buying behaviour, and we're able to connect dots that don't seem that evident initially. And it works. We typically see when people are leveraging these AI tools and releasing some of the control that they typically see, at least a 20% reduction in costs in their total Roas. And that's real improvement at the end of the day. And so I think that what really surprises advertisers is this aha moment that they were actually the bottleneck. And the most fine conversations I have sometimes is when they see those best performing creatives, they readily admit that would not have been their first choice. In fact, that would have been maybe one of their last choices, and they wouldn't have created that type of creative. But yet it's one of their highest performing creatives within their campaigns. So seeing that, I think gives people the realisation to question their assumptions and to question whether or not that applies universally to the clients that are available to them. 00:18:59.360 — 00:19:06.320 · Speaker 2 That's a great example. It's also a fun reminder of the earlier topic we opened with around. We all have biases and sometimes they work against us. 00:19:06.360 — 00:20:04.790 · Speaker 3 Yeah. And I want to reemphasize the point that it's not that people's intuition is wrong. In fact, I'm always so impressed. I think Canadian marketers has such a good, strong pulse of their business and what their existing audience base wants from the brand, but I think the bigger potential is to tap into some of these unknown markets where we don't know that could also love your brand too, but they just don't know about it and need the story to be told in a different way. And the real challenge is to have the courage to dive into and explore some of these different narratives that feel a little further off from their initial brand identity, but I would just encourage brands to try it. You can test this out in smaller markets or different audiences and see what works and doesn't, and maybe consider incorporating some of that into your ultimate brand identity. 00:20:04.870 — 00:20:21.070 · Speaker 2 And the efficiency that is helping deliver means that now a marketing teams of every size have more capacity, have more scale, can do much more niche testing, and help uncover some of those on top markets that they simply didn't have the time to get to in previous years. 00:20:21.110 — 00:20:21.950 · Speaker 3 Exactly. 00:20:21.990 — 00:20:52.110 · Speaker 2 Now, our listeners love to hear about anything that makes Canada different, good and bad compared to certainly in North America, but globally as well. And you have a really unique global view of how marketers are adopting AI across different markets. And you also have deep expertise on how Canadians are doing that. So can you share where Canadian marketers genuinely are ahead of the curve when it comes to AI adoption, and where are we falling behind in ways that should worry us? 00:20:52.150 — 00:24:08.610 · Speaker 3 It's a complex one to answer because there's so many different dimensions and ways to cut it. But if I look at AI adoption on meta in Canada, overall, I'm really proud of it. I think that it's quite strong. And when we look at adoption of AI tools, so those toggles that we're turning on, we are pretty much a par with most global economies and global marketers. There's some variation in different functionality, but overall we're on par with the global ecosystem where I think that we are lagging and we have so much potential is in exposure number one, and speed is the second. When I talk about exposure, it's really what are Canadians experiencing on the platform. And when we look at meta, I really always encourage brands to think about it beyond their typical Canadian advertisers. So typically when I speak to an advertiser, they will say, show me my share of voice compared to competitor A, B, and C within Canada, but we're not really looking at it as a global ecosystem. And what often surprises advertisers is that within their category, they may be a leader amongst the Canadian brands, but there are global brands who have more exposure, more share of mind, more share of voice, and we're not even considering them in the competitive set as we think about the strategies as we go to market. So that would be number one is just expanding our view beyond the Canadian competitors, because this really is a global marketplace. And then the second is speed. And I think that this is no surprise to any Canadian marketer. But we are proud fast followers. There's so many meetings that I am in where people get genuinely excited about a new innovation, a new product, and then they will ask, well, who else has done it? And if there isn't someone else who has done it, who is a larger brand than them? Than they say? Well, that is great, but our brand is a fast follower. My question and challenge in Canada is if we are collectively all fast followers, then who's going to be a leader and how does that get us to being a leader on the global marketplace? Because ultimately someone needs to take the lead. And so I would just love to see Canadians lean in more to this mindset of being a global leader and not settling to be a fast follower. And the most acute example I could think of is WhatsApp. So we have one of the highest penetrations in Canada. Because of our diverse environment and audience. It has high penetration. It's highly engaged, tended to build the one on one conversations and relationships with clients. Every day I see global brands interacting with me as a consumer, reminding me to check out, sharing, promotions, etc. And I don't see a Canadian brand doing that yet. Granted, this is a newer functionality, but these are the types of innovative experiences that I'd really love to start seeing Canadians leaning into a little more quickly and embracing that test and learn mentality. 00:24:08.650 — 00:24:28.650 · Speaker 2 I love the challenge to all of our listeners in the Canadian marketing community to not only be fast followers, I'm also interested. Do you see that our SMEs are more entrepreneurial, smaller businesses, more open to experimentation, and less proud about being fast followers? Or do you see it pretty consistently across your client base? 00:24:28.970 — 00:24:58.560 · Speaker 3 There's definitely more openness from SMEs to tests because they have less hurdles to overcome, but I would say their limitation and constraint is also resourcing. So with limited resourcing, they have to be really careful about taking measured risks because they don't have that leeway that larger multinational brands have to test and lean into innovation, which is why I think it's such an opportunity for us to be able to lean into that space. 00:24:58.560 — 00:25:07.080 · Speaker 2 So what's the biggest difference you see in consumer behaviour between Canadian and US audiences when it comes to how they're discovering and engaging with brands? 00:25:07.080 — 00:26:25.180 · Speaker 3 It's really interesting because I think that Canadians ultimately behave differently than US audiences. One of the most obvious ones is we are much more thoughtful about our purchases, large or small. So Canadians typically like to save items more. They think about it. They want to share it with friends and ask for opinions. They come back to the product multiple times before they end up doing a purchase. I would say that in other areas of the world, the purchase cycle is much quicker and perhaps even more impulsive, but the consideration cycle can often be smaller and the social validation isn't as strong as it is in Canada. The second thing that I would say is a the difference is cultural relevance really matters and is really powerful in Canada. And that could be either the mosaic of cultures that we have representing Canada, but it could also just be the Canadian cultural identity in itself. And when brands are leading authentically and proactively with their story and showing audiences why they are locally relevant, that they care about the community in Canada that generally performs disproportionately well. 00:26:25.220 — 00:26:45.860 · Speaker 2 So we know that Canadians can be a bit more cautious around data and testing than certainly our US counterparts. And sometimes there are very important regulatory reasons for that. Sometimes it can just be out of habit. So can you share an example where that being a bit too conservative actually cost a brand a competitive advantage, and what should they have done differently? 00:26:45.900 — 00:29:09.900 · Speaker 3 I come from a financial services background, so I 100% understand, appreciate and respect responsible data practices. But I think that sometimes there is a difference between responsible practices and avoidant practices. And that's really where we get into an area of risk and concern. One of the key areas that I feel really passionate about, that's underutilised on the meta platform, for instance, is the use of app installs and purchases. So leveraging Meta's platform to drive consumers to go and make purchases or discover a brand through their first party app, which is something that they invest a tremendous amount in and has ultimately a superior and more secure experience. I remember in one case, I asked a brand why they weren't doing that yet, because it seemed like a huge opportunity, and that brand just said that it was a decision from privacy. I asked what the challenges were so we could reflect those back to our product team and try to have them address. And actually nobody remembered why. The answer was no and nobody remembered who said no. And I would actually say that this is very common with marketers. I often see that they turn away from any opportunity that requires legal or privacy reviews, no matter how big the business case is. And I just think that that's such a loss and comes at such a cost to Canadian marketers. But I do have a lot of empathy for why that behaviour is happening, because the friction is just so high. The hoops that teams have to go through, the amount of documentation, the months, sometimes years they pursue these opportunities just doesn't feel worth the cost for the teams, and the incentives aren't there for them to do that, even if it makes sense from a business perspective. So I really think that this is something from a regulatory perspective we need to address as an industry. It's about being more responsible about how we leverage our resources and how we can help teams overcome some of these decisions so that we come to the right ones. 00:29:09.940 — 00:29:42.820 · Speaker 2 The consequences for marketers and getting that wrong are significant, so I can absolutely appreciate why they're treading very carefully. And when we think about ultimately what should be our guiding principle, it really should be around making sure that everything we're doing from a marketing perspective has the best interests of Canadians at its heart. So I think that can be a good guardrail to hopefully encourage Canadian marketers to take some measured risks, as long as they're ensuring that Canadians best interests is at the core of what they're doing. 00:29:42.900 — 00:30:04.480 · Speaker 3 Absolutely. There are so many instances where they aren't personally identifiable information or just use cases that we haven't fully explored, but we've just stopped that project because we haven't done the due diligence. Who understand, is this actually a risk, or is this a discomfort? And really leaning into that conversation. 00:30:04.640 — 00:30:59.190 · Speaker 2 And Canadian's views around privacy and what they expect from advertisers is also evolving. And it's certainly it's a bit of a roller coaster, but they do increasingly expect that there is a value exchange for when they're sharing data with brands of any kind, that they're getting value back from that. And the brand is about using that in the best interest of the consumer. So it's such an important conversation and such a balancing act and making sure that we are always doing what is in the best interests of Canadian consumers. At the same time that we are building Canadian brands and businesses. I want to even super generous with your time, and I know you're incredibly busy. So I'm going to end with my classic question and CMA connect podcast. I'm lucky to have really inspiring leaders like you as my guest. So I would love you to share one piece of career advice for our listeners and giving. You had a very unique path and experience. I'm very curious to hear your piece of advice. 00:30:59.630 — 00:32:13.930 · Speaker 3 Yeah. It's funny. Our number one piece of advice for advertisers, as you know, is to test and learn frequently. And I would say the same for career advice. Test into areas that you haven't explored, really push on your assumptions and build adjacent skills that are transferable beyond different disciplines. I think we all live in an uncertain world, but it's also a world in my view of endless possibilities. As I mentioned, Facebook didn't exist when I went to school. There was no way for me to plan for this role, whether it be career, what to pull my got, what experiences I got. But it's really ultimately anchoring around, driving value and finding different ways to provide value to your stakeholders. So I would say the same for careers is don't be so rigid about needing to have one ultimate destination, because it will most certainly change 3 or 5 times through your lifetime. But be flexible and see each part of the journey just as another phase and an opportunity to learn something different that will provide richness to your perspectives. 00:32:14.370 — 00:32:23.530 · Speaker 2 Under those absolutely great advice and a wonderful note to end this conversation on. So a huge thank you for sharing your experiences and your insights, and a really great conversation. 00:32:23.530 — 00:32:24.770 · Speaker 3 Thank you so much. 00:32:27.450 — 00:32:40.370 · Speaker 1 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA for and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

2. 

   1 Sept 2026

   EP76 - Pivoting and driving business results with Raymond Ludwin

   Great marketing careers aren't built in a single lane. In this episode of CMA Connect, host Alison Simpson welcomes Air Canada's managing director of promotional marketing, Raymond Ludwin, to explore his journey from agency strategist to client-side leader. Discover the strategy behind Aeroplan's 2025 campaign, a triple-Gold CMA Award winner, and why stepping out of the boardroom is critical to understanding the Canadian consumer. Finally, Ludwin reflects on the leadership mistakes that shaped his career. 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:24.120 — 00:02:48.530 · Alison The best marketing careers aren't built in a single lane. They're built by applying strategic thinking across different contexts, learning what works in each industry and developing a breadth of expertise that can make you valuable anywhere. Today's guest is a terrific example. Raymond Ludwin has built his career by moving between agency and client side roles and working across very diverse sectors, including telecommunications, coalition loyalty and travel. Throughout this journey, he's developed deep expertise spanning brand strategy and marketing, consumer research and loyalty marketing. And he's always been focussed on delivering marketing that drives real business results. I've had the distinct pleasure of working with Raymond twice, first at a branding agency where we tackled complex strategic challenges together, and later, as senior marketers at Rogers Communications. I have always valued his strategic thinking, his very collaborative approach, and his genuine curiosity about understanding what actually drives consumer behaviour in business outcomes. Raymond's career trajectory offers important lessons for marketers today. After brand strategy roles at several agencies, he worked in brand and corporate affair roles at Rogers. Raymond then made the move to Loyalty One, where he led brand strategy and customer experience for Air Miles, at the time Canada's largest coalition loyalty program. In 2018, Raymond joined Air Canada, where he now serves as Managing Director of Promotional Marketing, leading the team responsible for turning marketing strategy into bookings and revenue. Raymond also led the development of Aeroplan's "Stop Sitting on Your Points" campaign, which took a hat trick of golds in the CMA's 2025 awards in the Business Impact category. They won for Brand Engagement, Shopper Marketing and Brand Impact. Beyond his corporate leadership, Raymond gives back to our profession. He serves on the CMA's Marketing Talent Committee and is a judge for industry awards. Today, Raymond will share how to pivot quickly and drive results, as well as how Canadian consumers are evolving, including demographic and regional differences that he's seeing in his business. Raymond is also happy to talk openly about his mistakes, as well as successes. In an era where AI is evolving faster than anyone can master it, where political and economic volatility creates constant uncertainty, and where the pace of change demands agility over perfection, that kind of honest reflection is exactly what our listeners need to hear. Raymond also has a very fun story involving butter tarts, so they may have to tempt out of him. Welcome, Raymond. I am thrilled to welcome you to CMA Vonnect podcast, and I'm really looking forward to a great conversation. 00:02:48.570 — 00:02:57.810 · Raymond Thank you so much for having me, Alison. I feel this is kind of like the Barbara Walters or Anderson Cooper's opportunities for marketers. So it's really an honour to be interviewed by you. 00:02:57.850 — 00:03:10.060 · Alison So, Raymond, let's start with your career journey from agency to client side and across very distinct industries. What lessons have you learned from that transition, and what guidance would you offer marketers that are thinking about the next step on their career path? 00:03:10.100 — 00:04:21.660 · Raymond Well, I'll say off the bat that my career journey has definitely not been linear. I think calling it peripatetic or serendipitous would be maybe the most accurate thing. But on reflection, one learns about one's career journey, perhaps more so than one plans for it at the outset. And I think for me, what the most important learning was truly understanding what motivates me and keeping that core to how I think about how my career evolves. I realized early on that I'm highly motivated by complex industries that have challenging marketing problems and interesting customer dynamics. So mostly I've looked at my next opportunities as being places where I ask myself, could I just imagine being stimulated and not bored five years from now? I think secondly, you know, I got really good career advice myself early on, which is whenever you're looking at a particular role, ask yourself what next doors would this role open up that I could leverage into the future? And then finally, you know, and I'm sure this would resonate with everybody, you know, we spend as much time in our work environments, sometimes more than we do at home. So making sure that time is spent with people you respect and have fun with, grow to turn into friends is incredibly important and makes a career satisfying. 00:04:21.900 — 00:04:46.900 · Alison That is such great advice, and we're certainly an example of where meeting professionally, working together and turning into a friendship. So one of the wonderful outcomes of the profession. So you've developed expertise across brand strategy, marketing research, loyalty marketing. And that's just a few of the broad toolkit that you bring to any business that you join. So how has having the breadth of skills shaped your effectiveness as a marketer and your ability to really deliver business results? 00:04:46.940 — 00:06:42.640 · Raymond Well, I think, sometimes I think it's I think expertise is being generous, that's for sure. And certainly as I've gotten more senior, I, I sometimes feel like I'm now becoming more and more surface level at all these skills as I carry on in my career. But that being said, you know, that breadth of experience that I've enjoyed and continue to gather by working with people who now have their own expertise in those various marketing skills, what I learned from them, what that does, it really allows me to fit all the pieces of marketing strategy together and determine, you know, from which areas we will drive the right impact. And I think that is the thing that having that diverse background really facilitates. You know, I love to cook. And so the analogy I would make, it would be it's sort of a little bit like when you need to start working without a recipe, you have some sense of maybe the ingredients you can use. You don't know the proportion, you don't know how they'll all fit together, but you know, you use your previous cooking and eating experience to imagine something new that can be creative. And that only comes with practice and time and having that breadth of expertise. So I really benefited from having that, you know, that diversity. All of this for me, really came to a head when we relaunched Aeroplan in 2020 because in many respects this was highly uncharted territory. We were doing this right at the outset of Covid. So that was a seismic moment in travel, not just travel loyalty. We were repatriating a very well-known but somewhat tarnished brand, and there was a huge customer experience and value proposition lift that we were creating with the Aeroplan relaunch. So our ability to go off a standard playbook was very, very small. So being able for me to lean on some of those activities in my background across different industries and marketing activities, gave me the confidence that the marketing relaunch that we were planning might just work. And so you don't really realize how much you've had those experiences until you're challenged with a project or an opportunity where you know there is no playbook and you have to just rely on what's now bred in the bone or what has become instinct. 00:06:42.880 — 00:07:03.160 · Alison Well, I love the energy of constantly learning and comfort with ambiguity, because with the pandemic being a prime example, especially in your industry, none of us knew what was coming, how long it was going to last. So being comfortable, not knowing and being comfortable, seizing the moment, figuring out, okay, how are we going to solve this together is mission critical for any leader, and certainly in the marketing profession. 00:07:03.360 — 00:08:07.610 · Raymond You use the term ambiguity. And for me, that's so resonant because I often talk to my team about this, that ambiguity is uncomfortable, but it is also where the most interesting opportunities lie. Many of us work in matrix organizations, where roles and responsibilities aren't always obvious, and those come to the forefront when something new and interesting happens or presents itself that touches everybody. And one can either turn around and say, well, I don't know whose job that is and this is going to paralyze us. Or one you can turn around and say, well, because it touches everybody. It's an opportunity for collaboration in ways that we hadn't thought about before. And if we focus less on whose job it is or what the right process is, and more focus on, what are the outcomes that we need to drive together, magic happens. And it brings the best of a matrix organization to life. And that is what I call these ideas of productive areas of grey. There are unproductive areas of grey where things are just badly-designed, but there are productive areas of grey where a project or a cool marketing opportunity comes to life, and the right kind of organization with the right kind of attitude can really seize on that. 00:08:07.650 — 00:08:29.930 · Alison Now, I've also heard you say, don't let perfection get in the way of progress, which is so smart. But many of us get caught on it's got to be perfect. It's got to be like 99%. But with our ever evolving marketplace, agility is increasingly important and can actually be a real competitive advantage. So can you unpack your philosophy for our listeners and share an example of where this approach has really paid off? 00:08:29.970 — 00:10:44.900 · Raymond What it means is we we have a goal in mind, but we don't let today's solution be an impediment, even if it's suboptimal to to actually driving towards an eventual outcome, we get the confidence to take the first step. You know, for me, one of my favourite examples of this is we do a celebratory end of year email that we send out to our Air Canada base of the kinds of activities that they've done within the Air Canada and Aeroplan ecosystem. People really look at the end of the year. Their travel activities are part of the story they tell themselves, and so we wanted to contribute to that. It's a little bit like Spotify Wrapped, which is, you know, for was for us a very high bar to shoot for. I mean, Spotify Wrapped is like I'll say, near to perfect, right? And so as we look at how do we do our version of that, you know, the point of comparison of Spotify Wrapped became a little bit challenging. And when we decided to do this for ourselves four years ago, we maybe had some technical challenges that were beyond something that Spotify would have had to worry about. We had so many data sources to pull from, and many of them aren't in real time. And so for us, there was a real risk of overshooting what we tried to capture in terms of our customer's behaviours and then not fully capturing the right kind of content and data, which would actually create anxiety for people because many of them are tracking their flights, because they're looking to get more points, or they're looking to achieve status. And so the risk of trying to be comprehensive and therefore more relevant was very much balanced against how do we make sure that we're accurate. So basically what we did is we just started with what is the minimum amount of data that we can be confident in? How do we make sure that all of that data can be properly piped into the CRM engine and basically work with our amazing internal creative partners to develop something really cool and then just watch it and see how it did. And we actually had incredibly high engagement in that first year, and that meant that the team felt confident in delivering it the following year, adding more data sources, adding more data sources. And now we're at well over 100 data sources that feed into everybody's individualized, and personalized Wrapped experience, and we just see the engagement getting better and better. And much of the feedback we get, our base just talks about how much they look forward to it, and it's such a fun recollection of all the trips that they've taken. I still don't think we're all the way as good as Spotify Wrapped, but it just gives us motivation to just keep on progressing there. 00:10:45.220 — 00:11:00.990 · Alison Well, I love that you didn't walk away from the idea because it was going to be really hard and you ran the risk of, this works because it's ultra personalization and without the right data sources, not having done this before, if you shot too big the first year, you could have had the exact counter effect. 00:11:01.030 — 00:11:01.670 · Raymond That's right. 00:11:01.710 — 00:11:25.430 · Alison I absolutely love it. So kudos to you and your team for pulling it off. Now, you've always been very open and authentic, not just about your successes, but where you struggle as a marketer. And no one that's successful in our career gets there without mistakes and without struggles along the way. So can you share a mistake or two that taught you a valuable lesson? And maybe by sharing it, we can spare a couple of our listeners from going down the same path. 00:11:25.630 — 00:11:28.510 · Raymond So just like 1 or 2, because I have a lot to choose from. 00:11:28.510 — 00:11:30.350 · Alison You can go with your top two. How's that? 00:11:30.390 — 00:14:41.680 · Raymond Okay, well, maybe I'll start on a serious note, which is to say, you know, in all honesty, the mistakes that have really given me the most amount of long term heartache, they're actually not the marketing ones. They're the HR ones where I haven't addressed problems in the team in a timely fashion, or I haven't helped people reach their full potential, or I've put people in roles or in situations where they haven't been successful or happy. You know, those are mistakes that I've made that have, you know, affected people's lives in a meaningful way and not in a good one. And so those are the mistakes that haunt me still. And then I would also just say maybe, on an also serious note, marketing mistakes are relatively easy to rectify. By contrast, at Air Canada, our first and most very sacred value is safety first always. And so there's a part of the business that is rightfully allergic to mistakes. By contrast, my team and what we do and the mistakes that I myself make, yes, they have very serious commercial implications. But unlike many of my colleagues, people's lives aren't in the marketer's hands. So that means if I mess up, I have to find other ways of making up the revenue that I forfeited. But that's a maybe a less serious mistake than, you know, than the mistakes that we really worry about here at Air Canada. So I'm good with that kind of mistake where you can learn from it, you can fix it, you can find more revenue. It's liberating to know that there's a solution that can insulate or provide a bit of insurance against some of those risks. So I'll give you a little bit of an example for my maybe from my Air Miles days, I led a rebranding effort at air miles, and one of the things we really wanted to focus on was pushing a common Air Miles design system that we would effectively impose on our retail partners to use in store. The thinking being that if customers could recognize Air Miles everywhere, it would make them more and more engaged in the program. That looked great from our perspective, sitting in the boardroom or on a PowerPoint slide, but out in the wild in busy and cluttered retail aisles, that effort got really lost. We weren't sensitive to individual retail design systems of many of our different partners. And I can be quite persuasive, and so I persuasively convinced everyone, don't worry about this. You know, collectors will eventually get used to seeing all of these in-store, all of the POP en masse, and eventually start to seek them out. Nope. It just didn't work. People ignored it. People missed it. We used research. We found out, you know, that this, in fact, was not working. People were not buying things on bonus as much as they were before. It truly failed. And so we quite inconveniently, inexpensively had to rip out all of that signage, eat a little crow, and then build our own Air Miles signage that was less about our brand and more about the brand partnership with the retailers in whose store we were putting up the signs. And so I learned a lot from that. You know, two things. One is I'm actually not particularly good at brand design, so I now leave that more to some of my very talented colleagues. And two, marketers really can't be too precious. You can start with the best of theoretical intentions, and then you really have to figure out, how is this actually going to work and accept a well-aligned solution that maybe 90% of the way there, 80% of the way there, but at least is, you know, everybody's bought in and is working versus something that looks amazing, is 100% on brand and then, you know, fails. 00:14:41.680 — 00:15:07.170 · Alison Thank you for your candour and sharing those examples. And you're absolutely right. And I love the learning you shared around the Air Miles brand example. And that also speaks to the importance of getting out of the boardroom, walking through your different coalition partners, physical spaces, whether they're gas stations, retailers, and really understanding how it's going to come to life and what you're competing against. And that's a lesson that I've learned a few times in my career, and such a powerful one for sure. 00:15:07.370 — 00:15:45.570 · Raymond Well, 100%. I mean, if I think back to your career and having clients like Tim Hortons and understanding their, you know, the actual Tim Hortons environment, it's one of those things that's so easy to say and so hard to do, because there are so many meeting demands on our time, and it feels like you can never get out of the office, but that's just never lost. I get this now with getting to participate in activities around our operations at Air Canada. It's so fascinating. And I come back filled with so many ideas from our incredibly engaged frontline co-workers. And it's irreplaceable. There's nothing like that. And it's a lesson to continually remind oneself about. 00:15:45.610 — 00:15:53.380 · Alison Because you're right, like, we're so busy getting little work done that it feels can indulgent to take that time out, but you never regret having done it for sure. 00:15:53.420 — 00:15:54.540 · Raymond Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:54.580 — 00:16:01.020 · Alison I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA Connect to our listeners. 00:16:03.980 — 00:16:29.380 · Alison Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design. Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results. To learn more about Earnscliffe team and integrated services, visit earnscliffe.ca. 00:16:33.580 — 00:16:52.500 · Alison Now, often leaders put the pressure on themselves or feel the pressure from others to only share their successes, to pretend they have all the answers. Which is just such a ridiculous thought to think that any of us have all the answers. But why do you think it's important for marketer leaders to be much more open about the challenges and the mistakes they've made along the way? 00:16:52.940 — 00:16:54.420 · Raymond I think there's sort of two reasons. 00:16:54.420 — 00:19:09.710 · Raymond One is I have a great mistrust of hubris, either in myself or in the people I work with. And over time, I've learned to, you know, when I'm feeling really adamant about something, I have to very much self-interrogate. Why am I feeling adamant? Have I thought about this enough? Have I, you know, have I analyzed it enough? Have I, am I really sure why I can be adamant? And I think that having a degree of uncertainty is important because then you also are open to, if this isn't going to work, you could recognize the signs of it. That extends to the people I work with. You know, when my team comes and presents to me, if they are able to tell me where they think it might go wrong, they'll have my full-throated support. And when they seem like they're infallible, they don't. Because I worry that they haven't thought things all the way through. I had a wonderful compliment once from a woman on my team at Air Miles, and she was just an incredible co-worker. So smart, so dedicated, was just awesome. Anyways, I sent them down a particular path where I had an idea on how we were going to drive collector engagement, and it involved a particular kind of earning challenge that the collector would do. It was way too complicated. It was like not going to work. Anyways, the team went off and did a bunch of analysis on this, and they came back and they presented to me the data that basically said my idea was stupid, and I could tell they were pretty nervous about it and they were like, presented this, this deck. And at the end of it, I listened to them like, well, that was a dumb idea of mine. I'm glad we're not doing it. Please don't waste any more time. And they stopped and they were like, they were so surprised because they thought there would be pushback. And I said, well, if you can't push back on me on a bad idea, then what kind of confidence would you have in my leadership, in your own ideas? And it just created such an incredible bond as I worked with this person. On reflection, when more, she and I worked together, it had built that sense of trust that we could rely on one another, whether I was her boss or she was my employee, or vice versa. We could rely on one another to challenge ideas, to make them better, to keep on honing and honing and improving. And I think this is the important part about being a leader, is you have to recognize when your ideas are bad, and the more you own up to it, the more your team will have the confidence that when you're supportive of them, it's because you know that they're on the right track on something. 00:19:09.950 — 00:19:22.710 · Alison You also will make them more comfortable realizing when they have an idea that also isn't great, after they've done and spend a little time with it, you've made it safe for them. Say, you know what? I don't think we should spend any more time on this. So that's a great example of leading by example. 00:19:22.950 — 00:19:29.110 · Raymond But typically I have a greater proportion of dumb ideas than they do, so it's constantly renewing resources, this particular example. 00:19:29.150 — 00:19:45.600 · Alison Now your role gives you a really unique lens on how Canadians are evolving. So we've got renewed patriotism. We've certainly got uncertainty around tariff. We've got economic challenges. So how are Canadian's travel plans and buying behaviours changing and what shifts are you seeing in their marketplace behaviours? 00:19:45.720 — 00:21:26.690 · Raymond You know, you're so right, and I have a privilege of working in a category that has very high aspirational meaning to people. You know, the purchases they make in travel are highly symbolic of themselves. So really, travel's such a unique lens on Canadian's state of mind, and it's such an interesting barometer by which to look at the dynamics of consumers in Canada. A couple of really interesting things are going on. This may be a structural effect post-Covid, but people are very willing to prioritize the travel experience as part of their overall travel plans. Along with hotels, we're really seeing high, high interest in premiumization. So pre-pandemic, the front of the plane was especially sold to corporate travellers. But now we're much more likely to see leisure customers willing to spend a bit more on comfort because they weren't able to travel for many years during the pandemic. And now they know come hell or high water that trip, it matters to them. And that trip is super important. And so they're willing to spend a bit more on on comfort, that could be at the front of the plane, but it also works all the way to the back of the plane. A bit more room, nicer food, etc. and our product team is really leaning into that premiumization, and that is a great opportunity as a marketer to try to ensure that we are not seen as a commodity element of the travel experience and something that is worth marketing the value of. Another interesting sort of dynamic going on right now is just how, in times of economic uncertainty, people are still prioritizing travel, but they're booking way closer in. We're seeing, you know, the booking window, which is what we refer to as a difference between when they actually make the purchase for a trip and when they travel, shorten quite significantly. You can understand why, as people are wondering, like, where are the places that are going to be best to travel? What's the money that's going to be in my wallet when I when it comes time to travel and so on and so forth, you can understand and empathize with why people are making those decisions. But it certainly makes for a wild ride for us, both for my revenue management colleagues as well as, you know, for us, because it means that our traditional marketing calendar for routes is really kind of out the window now. We have to be a lot more adaptable to where the gaps and opportunities are as our load factors change and how, you know, the difference between, you know, a flight that's filling profitably and one that isn't, it becomes more acute in the timing of it. We are also you know, you spoke about tariffs, we are definitely seeing the effects of Canadians evolving relationship with the U.S. While it's true that Canadian leisure travel going trans-border is certainly softer than in 2024, what's really bounced back is corporate travel. Companies realize the U.S. relationships that they have need to be nurtured and booking activity on Air Canada is reflective of that. They are spending the time to be close with their with their American customers, with their American colleagues. That's not going away. Furthermore, actually, one thing I'm really proud of, both as a marketer, but also just as a Canadian, is seeing how our booking patterns reflect the broader trade diversification patterns that our current federal government is pushing for, as the government looks to ensure that Canada is set up for the future and is present more globally. We're actually seeing a parallel amount of activity for some of those places happening in our own network. And so, you know, it gives me a lot of pride that we're helping to contribute to how Canada makes inroads around the globe. One maybe further thing is, as the world seems more unsettled for people, it also means that their traditional destinations that they rely on are perhaps less of a sure bet. And, you know, we're actually, in an exciting way, extremely well-positioned to take advantage of that. You know, as two examples, we'll be flying to Sapporo and Tenerife this winter, places where, you know, many Canadians haven't thought about going on vacation before. And so now my team and our and my job is to start to drive interest in places that people hadn't considered, you know, which is super fun. And that's possible because Canadians are looking for diversified options that they may not have thought about before 2025. 00:23:41.060 — 00:23:50.820 · Alison I'd love to build on that and hear from you, are you seeing differences in how Canadians are buying and making travel decisions compared to Americans or travellers from other countries? 00:23:52.460 — 00:25:47.560 · Raymond So a key sort of difference in the Canadian travel industry is how focused Canadians are on package holidays, much more so than Americans. And actually, in that vein, we're more in keeping with Europeans. What's interesting about that dynamic is Canadians are looking for more and more things to be packageable. And if you think about how generative AI is changing the shopping experience, this is one area where we are really looking to evolve our product offering to help build travel options and travel packages in a more dynamic way to match that changing demand. We're an industry that is extraordinarily intertwined with the way people change and use technology in general, and that's been the case since the adoption of online travel way back in the early 2000. And it continues to be the case now. In many respects, though, particularly from a regional perspective, we actually have more in common than than different. You know, Canadians have certain typical trips they do. You know, be it sun trip a year, be it a trip to visit family, be it maybe every once in a while, a big foreign destination adventure. But what varies less is those archetypes and what varies more is where, is the where they go. So, for example, customers in Vancouver are much more likely to find those sun options in Pacific Mexico and less so East coast, which is where a lot of the Ontarians go. Things like, you know, there's some really wonderful Caribbean gems that are very popular among the Quebecois, particularly because they're francophone islands. And where we're having a lot of fun as a marketing team is actually introducing some of those never considered sun destinations by non-francophone markets to Anglophone markets. You know, getting people to, in Ontario to think about why or why are the Quebecois was so excited about Guadeloupe and Martinique as examples. So in many respects there's a lot of variation in terms of place and timing for Canadian travel, but some of those core needs are almost innate. They're common across the country. 00:25:47.560 — 00:25:55.120 · Speaker 2 Now beyond regional differences are there demographic patterns that are emerging? Are Gen Z purchasing very differently than Gen X, for example? 00:25:55.320 — 00:27:23.560 · Raymond For sure. And there's sort of two really big, let's call it structural changes that we're seeing. One is almost the decline of what we might have considered shoulder season. In fact, September, October in some areas are as big for us as July and August for some of those traditional transatlantic trips. Massive traffic, even going into November. And so that has really changed the nature of seasonality for us. And what's driving that, it's older consumers with more flexibility, still very keen to have travel options, maybe looking to avoid the heat, maybe looking to avoid some of the crowds and changing their travel environment into some of these shoulder seasons. It's actually great because it means that it flattens out our demand curve quite significantly and allows us to run our network a lot more efficiently. So that's one way that we, you know, again, have had to adapt both in terms of the segment as well as the marketing calendar, to try to take advantage of that. The second thing, and you know, this may sound like a platitude, but our younger travellers are much, much more likely to be seeking out unique and memorable travel experiences as part of their trips. Lessons, excursions, experiences with locals. And that's a big opportunity as we evolve to be more of the travel retailer I was talking about earlier and sell travel more dynamically as part of these larger experiential ecosystems. I wouldn't say we've cracked the code on that. There's a lot of work to do, but it's definitely something that we're going to need to be spending an increasing amount of time thinking about as a travel company. 00:27:23.760 — 00:27:30.320 · Alison You know, are the younger travellers also finding packages as appealing? It's just the type of packages that they're gravitating towards are different? 00:27:30.360 — 00:28:09.730 · Raymond That's right. They're looking for much more individualistic packaging, perhaps less of that kind of traditional old packaging that, you know, the industry is used to. I would also say, you know, a bit back to the point around premiumization. You know, it used to be that you would look at the front of the cabin and see, you know, a lot of grey hair like mine. And increasingly we are finding that younger travellers are really prioritizing travel over and above many of their other discretionary or non-discretionary household expenditures. And so a real interest in sort of the premium travel experience, premium travel credit cards and so on, that is reflective of the meaning that travel has for that younger generation. 00:28:09.730 — 00:28:19.050 · Alison Now given your brand expertise, and we're all in a very volatile environment. What can marketers do to protect and strengthen their brands while they're also remaining agile? 00:28:19.410 — 00:29:35.700 · Raymond That's a huge question, and I'm going to maybe take it in a slightly, I don't know if it's going to be controversial way, which is to say, you know, I think there was a period where brands thought a lot about some higher order questions around their role in society and so on. Honestly, I've become convinced that brands shouldn't be so self-engrossed and should be less engaged in abstractions about purpose, etc. I think if we're honest with ourselves, the average customer does not need a brand to be their spiritual life partner. I think for me, you know, remembering how we make money, which to my mind is the ultimate sign of a customer's respect for you, they're willing to give you their hard-earned cash. Think about why they're willing to do that and the meaning it has for them to do that, and then do an amazing job on delivering that emotional and rational value that satisfies them. Do that enough times and consistently enough, and that's how you build long-term brand health. I think that, you know, the era of us being part of the conversation in that way, I don't know if that was ever going to be as sustainable as we might have hoped it will be. And I think this idea of going back to basics and remembering why we add value and how we can be useful in people's lives, is an incredibly important thing. 00:29:35.740 — 00:29:55.100 · Alison Well, and by being useful in people's lives, by adding value and doing it in a distinctive way, that is all about building the brand. It's also keeping the business interest, and not just the desire, the need to continue driving growth and tangible business results in marketers, regardless of what sector we're in at the centre of everything that we're doing. 00:29:55.140 — 00:30:09.340 · Raymond One hundred percent. I'm proud as a marketer that I sell stuff, because when I sell stuff, not only am I bringing value to a customer's life, I'm bringing value to the business. And I think that it's a noble pursuit and we don't need to self-aggrandize beyond that. 00:30:09.620 — 00:30:17.540 · Alison It's why marketing exists, absolutely. To motivate consumers to actions that will benefit the business and also benefit the consumers. 00:30:17.580 — 00:30:18.580 · Raymond Couldn't agree more. 00:30:18.980 — 00:30:39.190 · Alison Loyalty has been a big part of your career, certainly a big part of your current mandate as well. And like everything around us, consumer loyalty in Canada is changing a lot right now as well. So what are some of the shifts that you're seeing in loyalty behaviours, and how do you think marketers should be thinking about evolving their loyalty strategies in order to make sure they're really keeping those strong customer relationships. 00:30:39.230 — 00:32:34.400 · Raymond It's a great question you're asking, and one that certainly I think a lot about, and I give a ton of credit to my Aeroplan product design colleagues who thought very, very seriously about this when we relaunched the program. And the phrase that they used as they thought about how to future-proof Aeroplan was this idea that, you know, remembering that loyalty is a two-way street. And once upon a time, you know, loyalty behaviour was exactly that. We used points primarily as a transactional carrot to get people to turn left into one gas station instead of doing the easier thing of turning right into the other gas station. And it worked. I mean, there's no doubt about it, but and it still works to a degree. You know, loyalty is still a behaviour driving marketing exercise. But more than ever, what I see is that, you know, customers want to point to their trackable behaviour, which we have now given them the tools to do, right, to see exactly what their loyalty is adding up to. They point to that trackable behaviour and they see that both as an achievement for themselves, but also as the right for them to have higher expectations of the company to whom they have given their loyalty. They actually want to be engaged in product event. They feel that they have a right to a higher level of service because of the loyalty that they've provided. And they're very, very vocal about that. And good for them, and I think rightfully so. So anyone who runs any kind of loyalty program or even just loyalty exercise, whether it's formal or not, really needs to be thinking about and asking themselves not only what business outcomes they want to see from their customers, but rather what loyalty are we demonstrating to them, and how do we ensure that they see that? Because that is in fact the two way street element, right? It's the yes, you've given me some points, but I have shown you loyalty as your customer. What is the reciprocity? And that can look very different, you know, across different industries. But certainly for us figuring out how to make that experience even better for the people who have shown us the most amount of commitment is top of mind all the time. 00:32:34.400 — 00:32:43.360 · Alison Well said. Now you serve on the CMA's Marketing Talent Committee. So what skills do you think marketers need today that are most different from when you started your career? 00:32:43.400 — 00:35:21.610 · Raymond I think there's some things that are truly timeless about marketing skill sets that never, frankly, never change. I think marketers have always needed to be and will always need to be insight-gatherers, pattern-recognizers, problem-solvers, opportunity-makers, all of that. In fact, I think the evolution of AI is just going to shine a light on those marketers who can use AI tools to do that better versus the ones who aren't. So I think those skill sets, you know, that will will continue to exist, and layering on top of all the technological advances that we've been able to make. But for me, what's changed the most is just the sheer number of levers to pull now and all of the different channels or marketable opportunities, whatever you want to call them. And frankly, sometimes I think my head is just exploding about all the various tactical balls that we have in the air at any one point in the campaign. But that said, it's also kind of liberating in the same way that, you know, no single ad is ever going to be now a silver bullet. We don't have, like, the real value of sixty-second anthemic TV spots. And maybe good riddance to that, because while that maybe once was an easy sell, the flip side is no one tactic is going to break you and it's not going to make you, but it's not going to break you, so you can afford and you have to afford to be trying a whole bunch of things all the time that are, you know, new. It's exhausting. There's no question about it. But it's also kind of fun because, you know, back a little bit to the conversation we were having about trying new things and taking risks. Like, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. Rome wasn't going to crumble in a day. And the same thing with the brand, right? We can have a tactic that doesn't work. We can see the results very quickly. We can pivot. They can throw the money at something else, re-evaluate. You know, it's all fine. It'll all work out. As I think about sort of all of those levers. We talk a lot about test and learn. I think the one thing that marketers really need to think about in that context, and this comes back to some of those enviable skills that you know that need to be maintained. You know, there's a real risk today and not pausing to do the learning part. In fact, the right way to think about it in my mind is actually learn and test, because you have to know before you do a test, what do you think you might want to learn from it and to actually, like, carry it? What is the hypothesis, depending on the answer. What might we do differently if we learn that the hypothesis was true or not true? Then if you know what you want to learn, then do the test. Because what often happens is we move so quickly that in this idea of test and learn, we just test. Don't have time to learn, okay, test something new, test something new. And it's like Groundhog Day all over and over again. So you have more and more levers going on all the time, but you haven't actually figured out, well, when we do a test, why are we doing this test? And so this is something I have to catch in myself. Something I certainly push in my team is it's actually learn and test and then learn and test, not test and learn. 00:35:21.850 — 00:35:38.780 · Alison That's such a great observation because we all are agile, need to be even more agile. But that does not excuse us from spending a bit of time up front to figure out, why are we doing this? What do we hope to learn? We can't shortchange the strategic piece at all, or we'll just end up wasting time and energy and redoing a lot of work for sure. 00:35:38.820 — 00:35:39.620 · Raymond So well said. 00:35:39.660 — 00:35:53.180 · Alison I definitely cannot let you go without asking about the butter tarts, so please share with our listeners how you used your wonderful marketing skills to get a judging spot at the Royal Winter Fair's Butter Tart contest. One of my favourite Raymond stories. 00:35:53.540 — 00:36:49.900 · Raymond Well, I would say we talked a little bit about my career journey. There has been no single thing in my career that has caused as much activity on my LinkedIn profile as my butter tart experience. And it's actually maybe less about a marketing activity, and it's more about just entrepreneurial gumption. I basically was a regular attendee of the of the Royal Agricultural Fair, and I was on an email list and they were talking about the butter tart, um, judging festival. So I just wrote to them and said, "Listen, I am a very committed eater of butter tarts. I come to the fair all the time. I believe I have a, you know, very well-defined version of the perfect butter tart that I can use as a as a way to come and adjudicate all the butter tarts that are offered." And shockingly, they called me. They questioned my perfect butter tart model, and they said, "Well, as a matter of fact, you can come and try over 50 butter tarts in three hours," which I will say probably brought me as close to going into sugar shock as I've ever come. But it was totally worth it. 00:36:49.900 — 00:36:54.060 · Alison And coming out of that, you now have a favourite butter tart place that we have both benefited from. 00:36:54.100 — 00:36:57.700 · Raymond Yeah. Shameless plug for Doo Doo's outside of Peterborough. 00:36:57.940 — 00:37:14.020 · Alison Now, as you know, I end each episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. Throughout this episode, you've shared a lot of really great advice. So what's one parting piece of advice that you offer to marketers who want to be the next Raymond? 00:37:14.060 — 00:38:22.710 · Raymond I will share one small amount of advice, which is to say I've met many great marketers over the years. So the through line that runs through all of them is something that can't be trained, but rather has to be nurtured. And that kind of natural marketing capacity, really comes down for me to three characteristics curiosity, empathy, and imagination. And it's, you know, I think marketers who display those are able to adapt to all sorts of different consumer, you know, situations. Imagine different kinds of campaigns, think about how to work with technology differently. It's sort of those emotional, those are the foundational characteristics. It's really easy if you have those to let that wither though, because without enough oxygen, those characteristics are hard to maintain. And so my own personal advice is find the things for you that help keep those characteristics alive. And for me, I'm a firm believer in reading fiction because I think all the great literature, older or modern through the ages, has asked readers to engage with that, you know, curiosity, empathy and imagination. And I really do believe that stuff, that's a wellspring of natural marketing capability that we need to make sure we keep alive. 00:38:22.830 — 00:38:30.750 · Alison That was great advice to end on, Raymond, thank you so much. I knew this would be a very fun and insightful conversation, and you absolutely have delivered. So a huge thank you. 00:38:30.790 — 00:38:45.230 · Raymond It has been a pleasure to be on your show, Alison. And maybe I'll also just say, you know, I know you're retiring shortly and, you know, you've had an incredibly impressive career to watch. And I congratulate you on your retirement and wish you all the best as you go into the next chapter. 00:38:45.270 — 00:38:50.070 · Alison I will definitely be taking benefit of some of those shoulder season travel plans that you mentioned earlier. 00:38:50.110 — 00:38:51.190 · Raymond We look forward to your booking. 00:38:51.230 — 00:38:52.350 · Alison Absolutely. 00:38:55.350 — 00:38:57.549 · Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

3. 

   18 Aug 2026

   EP75 - Sephora Canada's Rise to Influence With Allison Litzinger

   Sephora Canada Senior Vice-President and Chief Marketing Officer Allison Litzinger shares with Alison Simpson how Sephora achieved Canadian influence by focusing on community and joy.

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