Curiosity That Matters

About Curiosity That Matters

Curiosity involves lots of questions. Or just enough, good questions. Curiosity That Matters is a series of conversation with thought leaders and experts working at the intersection of design, policy, innovation and impact. Each episode, we spend around 45 minutes discussing a framework, concept, mental model or approach that my guest either created or is an expert on. We cover topics such as collective imagination, expansive thinking, creative bureaucracy, nurture capital, dark matter in design & policy, the boring revolution and much more. We talk about the guests' journey and their curiosity, and delve deep into the topics at hand. As for the questions... I'm still working on mine

Publisher

Nadim Choucair

Category

business · education · society & culture

Language

en

Explicit

Yes

First episode

26 Sept 2023

Latest episode

13 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

13 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   13 Oct 2026

   CTM Video Special: Governing Together with Györgyi and Ryan

   For our first CTM Video Special (Watch on YouTube! (https://youtu.be/VlgjeKfyIXw)) , I interview Györgyi and Ryan about “Governing Together,” arguing that well-intentioned policies and technologies often fail when they ignore lived experience and jump to solutions (“plunging in bias”), meeting targets while missing outcomes. They trace their motivations through Hungary’s democratic backsliding and the shocks of Brexit and Trump, linking these to systemic failures such as new public management and extractive logics. Using a soil metaphor, they describe societies as living systems whose health depends on psychosocial “nutrients” (integrity, competence, benevolence, reciprocity, psychological safety) and relational capacity; trust is an emergent outcome, not a given. They emphasize slowing down to design for micro–meso–macro change, highlight West Oakland’s “Owning Our Air” plan as relational governance in practice, discuss formalizing relationality through intentional convening and facilitation, and note the publication’s unexpectedly broad global resonance. This was recorded in February 2024 at Publix Studios in Berlin

2. 

   5 Jun 2026

   CTM Special with Meri & Uri from Future Days

   Conversation with FutureDays founders Meri & Uri that happened right after FutureDays 2025 in May 2025 at their place in Lisbon

3. 

   1 Jul 2024

   CTM 10: The Messy Middle with Kirsten Dunlop

   The Messy Middle with Climate KIC's Kirsten Dunlop Episode 10 features Kirsten Dunlop, CEO of Climate KIC (https://www.climate-kic.org/), discussing the profound shifts needed for climate action and transformation through radical collaboration and place-based approaches. Kirsten emphasizes the importance of navigating the 'messy middle' — the gap between present realities and future climate goals — by fostering hope, courage, and systemic change. She highlights the role of unexpected partnerships and integrating art with science to drive human transformation and collective action. Kirsten emphasizes the need for radical collaboration between diverse stakeholders, overcoming fragmentation and competition to bridge the gap between climate commitments and implementation. She highlights the power of place-based solutions grounded in local meaning and agency and argues we must go beyond targets, exercising courage and imagination to remake systems and mindsets. A key theme is embracing uncertainty and complexity, making sense of constant change through action, reflection and human experience. Kirsten stresses the untapped potential of human connection and collective possibility when people engage each other with curiosity and generosity. Key themes: - Bridging gaps in implementation. - Fostering an ecosystem of change through “deep demonstrations.” - Constructing social infrastructure to tackle climate challenges. - Role of unexpected partnerships and integrating art with science. - Role of psychological and social dynamics for transformation. - Strategic directions for Climate-KIC from 2024-2030. Kirsten's LinkedIn Post (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kirsten-dunlop-6b4a547_this-year-i-have-needed-time-to-reflect-activity-7147145019043340288-Z9rO/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop) Climate KIC's 2024-2030 Strategy (https://www.climate-kic.org/news/eit-climate-kic-new-strategy-2024-2030-climate-change-2/#:~:text=To%20achieve%20this%20ambition%2C%20the,systemic%20change%20and%20collective%20action.) Net Zero Cities project (https://netzerocities.eu/)

4. 

   21 Jun 2024

   CTM 9: Dark Matter & Trojan Horses with Dan Hill

   Our latest episode features Dan Hill, a renowned designer, urbanist, and director of the Melbourne School of Design. Dan delves into his multifaceted career and his work at the intersection of design, technology, and urban planning. Key themes discussed include: - Dan's multidisciplinary approach to solving urban problems - The concept of 'dark matter' in design, involving unseen factors like policies and regulations - Transformative, 'Trojan Horse' projects, such as Helsinki’s 'Restaurant Day' - The role of public designers in city governance - Decision making cultures and decision design - Integrating cultural elements in urban planning - The "every day systems container" concept with the example of streets as complex systems with various interacting elements. - His thoughts on Mission Oriented Innovation Dan also reflects on the importance of curiosity in driving systemic change and innovation, emphasizing the interconnections between architecture, community, and sustainability. References: - Vinnova's Designing Missions Book: https://www.vinnova.se/en/publikationer/mission-oriented-innovation---a-handbook-from-vinnova/ (https://www.vinnova.se/en/publikationer/mission-oriented-innovation---a-handbook-from-vinnova/) - Dan's Dark Matter & Trojan Horses concept & link to his book: https://medium.com/dark-matter-and-trojan-horses/dark-matter-and-trojan-horses-a-strategic-design-vocabulary-strelka-press-18551fff3133 (https://medium.com/dark-matter-and-trojan-horses/dark-matter-and-trojan-horses-a-strategic-design-vocabulary-strelka-press-18551fff3133) - Missions: A Beginner's Guide (from UCL IIPP): https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/publications/2019/dec/missions-beginners-guide (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/publications/2019/dec/missions-beginners-guide) Extra material: - Dan's presentation at the Creative Bureaucracy Festival - https://creativebureaucracy.org/discover/videos/mission-oriented-innovation-what-is-it-and-does-it-work/

5. 

   10 Jun 2024

   CTM 8: Incubating Curiosity & Behavioral Science with Bridget Gildea

   In this episode, host Nadim Choucair speaks with Bridget Gildea, a multidisciplinary consultant & behavioral scientist working at the intersection of applied learning, technology, behavioral insights, and public policy. We discuss the value of curiosity in policymaking and how to create the right conditions to foster productive curiosity. We explore the challenges in translating intention into action, highlighting strategies such as making desired behaviors more achievable, leveraging social norms, and fostering accountability. Bridget explains how curiosity can uncover the root causes behind policy challenges and lead to more effective solutions. However, bureaucracy and ingrained ways of working can unintentionally stifle curiosity. Bridget argues that modeling curious behaviors like asking thoughtful questions, approaching issues with "intellectual humility," and creating safe spaces for inquiry and reflection can shift mindsets. She also highlights the importance of translating insights into action, which she calls "productive curiosity." Bridget also discusses the role of reflective periods, collective intelligence, and methodologically sound convening in innovation within the for-good sector. She also touches on the influence of narrative and art in policy, the concept of 'social sculpture,' and the importance of addressing large existential threats like climate change. Overall, the conversation centers on cultivating curiosity to drive innovation in policymaking. It emphasizes curiosity's ability to challenge assumptions, spur collective problem-solving, and create meaningful change. Links: The Curiosity Incubator https://www.linkedin.com/company/curiosity-incubator/ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/curiosity-incubator/) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il9TN2HG0Y4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il9TN2HG0Y4) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il9TN2HG0Y4) The EAST Framework https://www.bi.team/publications/east-four-simple-ways-to-apply-behavioural-insights/

6. 

   6 May 2024

   CTM 7: Collective Imagination with Sir Geoff Mulgan

   In Episode 7 of Curiosity That Matters, host Nadim Choucair engages with Sir Geoff Mulgan, a prominent author, thinker, and advocate for collective intelligence, social innovation, and public policy. Geoff shares insights from his multifaceted career spanning roles in the UK government and academia, reflecting on lessons learned from his political activism to his leadership at Nesta, the UK's innovation foundation. The conversation delves into Geoff’s latest book, Another World Is Possible (https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/another-world-is-possible/), exploring the concept of collective imagination and its critical role in envisioning positive societal changes amidst challenges like climate change, technological advancement, and political inertia. Geoff’s stories range from his early days mobilizing musicians against Thatcher’s policies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Wedge) to modern efforts in reimagining future governance structures and societal support systems like mental health and climate action. This episode offers an in-depth conversation on the importance of collective imagination and innovation in addressing societal challenges, drawing on his vast experience in government, academia, and social innovation. More readings & content by Geoff: https://www.geoffmulgan.com/post/mesh-organisational-archicture-theory https://www.geoffmulgan.com/post/imagination (https://www.geoffmulgan.com/post/imagination) (https://www.geoffmulgan.com/post/imagination) https://creativebureaucracy.org/discover/videos/the-art-of-imagination/ Geoff's interview with Boundaryless & New Statesment article https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/geoff-mulgan/ (https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/geoff-mulgan/) https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2015/10/trotsky-blair-and-new-politics (https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2015/10/trotsky-blair-and-new-politics) About Geoff: https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/76510

7. 

   17 Apr 2024

   CTM 6: Huddles & Learning with Zahra Davidson

   In this episode I speak with Zahra Davidson, the outgoing CEO of Huddlecraft, about peer learning, collective imagination, and letting go. Zahra left her post as CEO at the end of March 2024 Zahra explains how Huddlecraft facilitates huddles - small peer learning groups united by a shared curiosity. She discusses the importance of crafting a personal learning question, embracing emergence and giving up control, and making learning tangible. She reflects on stepping back from leading Huddlecraft after 7 years and shares her curiosity around enjoying life amidst challenge. She describes Huddlecraft's work around collective imagination, and talks about the role of writing in making sense of her curiosity and processing ideas. As she prepares to leave her CEO role, she looks ahead to having more space and an open mind about what is possible next, following her curiosities with less attachment to specific outcomes.

8. 

   19 Mar 2024

   CTM 5: Agile Stability & The Entrepreneurial State with Rainer Kattel

   “Agile stability in the context of the entrepreneurial state” explores the role of the state in innovation and the economy. UCL Professor & IIPP Deputy Director Rainer Kattel, explains why innovation needs bureaucracy, and why the initial nimbleness and speed required to innovate needs a certain structure that provides stability for scaling innovations. Kattel introduces the idea of “agile stability” – governments need stability for long-term functions but also agility to respond to new challenges. He provides examples like digital agencies that start small and experimental but later become institutionalized. Kattel argues we need to consciously design public organizations for innovation. He emphasizes that both capabilities and capacities matter – skills and leadership, but also infrastructure and resources. The discussion covers how to build these capabilities, the role of missions in focusing innovation efforts with specific examples. Overall, the podcast makes the case that realizing the promise of an “entrepreneurial state” relies on building dynamic and learning-oriented public organizations.

9. 

   1 Mar 2024

   CTM 4: Boring Revolution with Indy Johar

   Our 4th episode features Indy Johar, founding director of Zero Zero and Dark Matter Labs (https://darkmatterlabs.org/), discussing the need for a “boring revolution” to transform the underlying systems and values that are driving our current crises. Indy argues we need to move beyond an extractive, ownership-based system to one based on shared value creation and recognizing our interconnectedness. Key themes include reimagining profit as a proof of value rather than extraction, investing in societal assets like collective intelligence, reinventing bureaucracy for the digital age, and designing new civic economies that are closer to where value is generated. Indy also discusses the invisible violence embedded in current systems, the need for a “great peace” and mutually assured thriving, decentralizing organizing for compound learning, the organizations of the future, and giving language to emergent realities many are sensing, Key Takeaways We need a “boring revolution” to transform the deep codes, values and systems underlying today’s crises Must move beyond ownership, dominion and separation to embracing interconnectedness Profit should show value created, not just extracted; must invest in shared goods Reinvent bureaucracy and governance for complexity of 21st century Design new civic economies and organize for collective & relational intelligence Our system causes invisible violence; need a “great peace” Written and spoken language not sufficient to describe world we need, yet shapes and gives meaning to what many sense is happening Below are links to articles, podcasts and other references I mention and I consulted in preparation for this episode: - https://www.linkedin.com/posts/amitpaul-changemaker_accounting-revolution-bureaucracy-activity-7068911355528933377-ms8I - https://futureofgood.co/mutually-assured-thriving-indy-johar-on-the-future-of-caring-for-one-another/ -https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7065052478186102784 (https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7065052478186102784)   ...  continue at https://youtu.be/IrJVjrPsPus?t=2734 - https://www.thedeepdivepod.com/135 - https://boundaryless.io/podcast/dark-matter-labs/ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvmgf-8bVCo — Indy @ Creative Bureaucracy Festival - https://www.samrye.xyz/on-relational-infrastructure/ - https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/dm-note-8-on-art-and-imagination-infrastructure-8b3cee1d32c6 - https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/innovation-needs-a-boring-revolution-741f884aab5f - https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/how-do-democracies-innovate-in-a-complex-world-8f26342d164b - https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/dmls-manual-of-us-d41b1c235869 - https://creativebureaucracy.org/discover/videos/the-boring-revolution-remaking-bureaucracy-for-this-century/ - https://www.ft.com/content/b1604232-bfcd-49a5-99eb-9ac540d22748 - https://www.futurebuild.co.uk/guest/indy-johar-co-founder-project-00-dark-matter-labs-senior-innovation-associate-young-foundation/ - https://forthewild.world/listen/the-edges-in-the-middle-bayo-and-indy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhueZVPI0hU

10. 

    2 Feb 2024

    CTM 3: Creative Bureaucracy with Charles Landry

    Charles Landry is a renowned urbanist and author, and founder of the Berlin-based Creative Bureaucracy Festival Join us in this re-published episode to learn more  his concept of "creative bureaucracy" and the role of curiosity and imagination in public administration. Landry explains that creative bureaucracy is about fostering a culture within public organizations that is open to new ideas and solutions. He argues that many public servants are naturally creative and curious, but rigid hierarchies and risk-averse cultures often stifle this. Landry emphasizes the importance of cultivating imagination, as this allows people to envision alternative futures. He advocates for public servants to adopt an entrepreneurial mindset of experimentation and collaboration both within and outside of government. Overall, Landry makes the case that embracing creativity and curiosity results in more adaptive, human-centered public institutions capable of tackling complex issues. He views this as vital for shaping a better future.

11. 

    30 Nov 2023

    CTM 2 : Nurture Capital with Masawa's Joshua Haynes & Huria Obgamichael

    EP2: NURTURE CAPITAL with Huria Obgamichael & Joshua Haynes from Masawa Episode two is all about mental wellness with a particular focus on founder mental health and the role of capital in promoting mental wellbeing. Some notes for you: Huria, Joshua and myself all went to The Fletcher School of Law & Diplomacy at Tufts University. Check out the school’s programs here: https://fletcher.tufts.edu/ (https://fletcher.tufts.edu/) (https://fletcher.tufts.edu/) Joshua is founding partner, and Huria partner, at impact fund MASAWA. Masawa means. Masawa invests in European startups catalyzing mental health and wellness - To learn more about Masawa, check their website: https://masawa.fund/ (https://masawa.fund/) - to learn more about Nurture Capital, read this: https://masawa.fund/nurture-capital-thought-starter/ (https://masawa.fund/nurture-capital-thought-starter/) - Around 20:00 - we mention the Hexframe approach of Masawa, which is part of their Nurture Capital thought starters. Other relevant mentions: We mention the book Enterprise Design Patterns (https://www.enterprisedesignpatterns.com/) by Wolfgang Goebl, Milan Guenther, Bard Papegaaij from the Intersection Group, and Annika Klyver In late 2022, I signed up for the School of System Change’s 33days systemic reflections - an invitation to start 2023 with 33 days of reflection guided by one question / prompt each day that the school shared. Thanks again for the Louise, Anna and Sean from the School for allowing me to use this. Stay tuned for version two probably coming late 2023, for a reflective start to 2024! There’s a shout out to a common connection between us - hello Gerjet & Natascha from Accelerate Health: https://acceleratehealth.de/ Here’s a link to the Impact VC playbook (https://www.impactvc.co/vc-playbook) that includes players from of course Masawa, but also Ananda Ventures, Partech, Atomico, Northzone, norrsken, Balderton, Bethnal Green Ventures and others Read more about the Danish Design Center’s Imagine if we (https://ddc.dk/projects/imagine-if-we/) project on mental health for youth For those interested, Techstars's toolkit includes founder mental health: https://toolkit.techstars.com/entrepreneurship-mental-health, (https://toolkit.techstars.com/entrepreneurship-mental-health,) and they talk about it in this podcast: https://www.techstars.com/blog/podcasts/mental-health-for-entrepreneurs (https://www.techstars.com/blog/podcasts/mental-health-for-entrepreneurs)

12. 

    29 Sept 2023

    CTM 1 : Expansive Thinking with Christian Bason

    For the first episode of Curiosity That Matters, I travelled to Copenhagen, Denmark, to interview Christian Bason, CEO of the Danish Design Centre. In this episode, we delve deep into one of his latest books: Expand. Stretching the future by design (https://expandingthefuture.com/) We talk about: The SIX expansions in the book, along with practical examples Christian's influences and his career journey What he's looking forward to, and what he thinks I should be curious about Relevant notes & links: Who is Christian Bason (https://ddc.dk/people/christian-bason/)? What is the Danish Design Centre (https://ddc.dk/): Book related to episode: Expand - Stretching the Future by Design (https://amzn.to/46EcbJ1) Other books mentioned in episode: The Organization was set free, and the Leadership Had to be Rediscovered (https://contentpub.eu/produkt/organisationen-blev-sat-fri-og-lederskabet-skulle-genfindes/) (Danish) - Christian's new book, published since the interview Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (https://amzn.to/404cvON) Charles Eames Interview Design Q&A with Charles Eames (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xYi2rd1QCg) / Read about it here (https://www.hermanmiller.com/stories/why-magazine/design-q-and-a-charles-and-ray-eames/) DDC's Work on youth & mental Health https://ddc.dk/mission-for-a-thriving-youth/ (https://ddc.dk/mission-for-a-thriving-youth/) https://ddc.dk/projects/imagine-if-we/ (https://ddc.dk/projects/imagine-if-we/) Other work by the DDC https://ddc.dk/all-innovation-projects/ (https://ddc.dk/all-innovation-projects/) Mission Oriented Innovation Learn more about Mariana Mazzucato and Missions here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/research/mission-oriented-innovation (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/research/mission-oriented-innovation)- Some of what I read and listened to in preparation for this episode: https://www.cbs.dk/en/research/departments-and-centres/department-of-management-politics-and-philosophy/events/phd-defence-christian-bason-0 (https://www.cbs.dk/en/research/departments-and-centres/department-of-management-politics-and-philosophy/events/phd-defence-christian-bason-0) https://medium.com/authority-magazine/authors-jens-martin-skibsted-and-christian-bason-of-expand-stretching-the-future-by-design-on-how-5d217bb59055 (https://medium.com/authority-magazine/authors-jens-martin-skibsted-and-christian-bason-of-expand-stretching-the-future-by-design-on-how-5d217bb59055) https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/mckinsey-on-books/author-talks-design-your-future (https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/mckinsey-on-books/author-talks-design-your-future) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1R_9qbp92E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1R_9qbp92E) https://creativebureaucracy.org/discover/videos/expand-how-to-stretch-the-future-by-design/ (https://creativebureaucracy.org/discover/videos/expand-how-to-stretch-the-future-by-design/) https://apolitical.co/solution-articles/en/why-expansive-thinking-is-the-new-creative-fuel-for-public-servants (https://apolitical.co/solution-articles/en/why-expansive-thinking-is-the-new-creative-fuel-for-public-servants) https://intotomorrow.com/highlighting-six-key-expansion-theories-critical-to-building-a-sustainable-future-with-christian-bason/ (https://intotomorrow.com/highlighting-six-key-expansion-theories-critical-to-building-a-sustainable-future-with-christian-bason/) Enjoy!

13. 

    26 Sept 2023

    Curiosity That Matters - Trailer

    Meet Curiosity That Matters host Nadim Choucair and learn what topics you can expect to explore during the upcoming conversations!

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