Where can I listen to this podcast?

This podcast is available on 6 platforms including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. You can also use the RSS feed directly.

Does this podcast accept guests?

Yes, this podcast regularly features guests.

Dark and Twisted Alleys: A Film Noir Podcast

Claim This Podcast

by Debbi Mack and F.R. Jameson

2.3(3 reviews)

29 episodes

Updated Weekly

Accepts GuestsHas SponsorsLocation 🇺🇸

Podcast Overview

Crime writers F.R. Jameson and Debbi Mack discuss film noir at its best and worst.Join us once a month for a lively discussion.

Language

🇺🇲

Publishing Since

2/23/2024

Visit Website View on Apple Podcasts RSS Feed

1 verified contact email on file for Dark and Twisted Alleys: A Film Noir Podcast

Pitch yourself as a guest, propose sponsorships, or reach out directly to the host.

See contact details

Recent Episodes

May 24, 2026

Bonus episode: Interview with Pierce Kafka

Hi all! I have a special episode of Dark and Twisted Alleys for you today. As chance would have it, I received word through a publicist of a feature film made without spending a significant amount of money. That film is <a href="https://contradictionmovie.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Contradiction</a>, which was written and directed by <a href="https://piercekafka.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Pierce Kafka</a>, as I mentioned <a href="https://debbimacktoo.wordpress.com/2026/05/21/a-conversation-with-writer-director-pierce-kafka/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">here</a> (where you can see us on YouTube), and as it turns out, it’s not only a no-budget film, but it’s … well, hard to define. But it does give off a definite neo-noir vibe! <img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-27197" src="http://www.debbimack.com/dmack/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Dark-Twisted-Ep.-22-Pierce-Kafka-e1779585150866.jpg" alt="" width="650" height="366" /> And so, I’m pleased to have had the opportunity to talk with the fellow that pulled off this amazing feat. I think it’s called digging in and doing what needs done, no matter what. And on that note, here’s the interview: <img decoding="async" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-27202" src="http://www.debbimack.com/dmack/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/A-convo-with-Pierece-Kafka-e1779588481380.jpg" alt="" width="650" height="366" /> Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/cKgFQ6ZTveFSVylRnjOnouFiCahuQ0qjfjQjMHI8JXRgyyVURupvpH2guArwltfUgYBvQQMYWEPGuqoYSm3g_8f7Fmo?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=11.42">00:11</a>): Thank you for having me. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/dWPSD6_2saV7TNhO1njiPKNuzWPc_ku0vn3BUye-KkzXIAjCtg233g7zmSEOSzO0UGbcqPPJVphzAMR_HLoiLSzG14A?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=12.84">00:12</a>): Oh, it’s my pleasure. Believe me, it is my pleasure to do this. It’s so nice to talk to a filmmaker and a first time filmmaker, I take it. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/QjYyoWDt8UfJLNbKEV_LjLKxS-LEiG--w74rFfzzJ6oQmv6JfLUlEqY4omyyJv2tgH2zUAD1Z_VDP_VMeXOzHuavcl8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=24.02">00:24</a>): Yes. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/vExmciMYeWFMxxBDPnWuiMX_ENxXbBQCNpVfXdggFF6PJaE5yyX1nN6jcUo0S_6nM4hWue6bxyEyMXFeWnOTBF8NZbc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=25.02">00:25</a>): So, I myself am also a first time filmmaker. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/L_9k8oTPwtRFmvvWhqaInGz6fy_ddA5G6AXiHHMiglJDichtHNwI2S-5dGkHJG1S7H23I2P-YAJamAZwyfqxxJ4Ufv4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=28.46">00:28</a>): Oh. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/11RPfSduHbtcQvHL5iA9WdAca4EFGTvUBNltBGjMgu8F3qvOrDYT26xOMvazGg9NbkWgFgM2wTtZgE23aqd5urYECBM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=29.62">00:29</a>): It’s weird. The story is weird. I won’t belabor you with the story, but– Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/1JLjMsWD-UV7CMOooA7ZgrkwHVHyRlmiqelNgJo__Ar_urJl_YJ5e7P0T3yd8Lt9qz4kGE4QVm09AzEfFWZOl446xxE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=35">00:35</a>): Well, I’d love to hear about what stage you’re at and how you’re feeling. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/dt1bqSCDuHE5JK0VgXcCR_--Trd0YL4Lpt0QBuQLGzYBrGsjd1kQcnBy395a0B_Ij0AYQgLDE2uhG-IEpDA54agXA7s?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=39.84">00:39</a>): Feeling good actually, all things considered. I’m now making a second movie. I’m getting the crew together for that. We need to have a production meeting. I’ve already done one reading with the cast. I just enjoy it so much just connecting with other people and doing this. Do you have that same kind of feeling? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/PQJ9_XuuexblonXTbGIKb_D4dnsYQX3-xd6-HgW_BkVFQUCvWm_iM36bs6k7tCqiWJ0fiBmgHJ3WZFgm8JaGc70qq2g?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=64.98">01:04</a>): Yeah, I do. And it’s extra interesting that you are such a creator and a writer, but you’re also talking to other creators and writers. And how does that relationship or how does that in your creative process work? Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/nDiX6zRHsnx5lgZdDB_jpWZ4JY_AOMJ--DggwC-EU_RtabtnZ6bIcW2P8SM2VoBfJwHnGy3eb9TqRCuX-8YAmadvEBE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=80.8">01:20</a>): I find it just really helps me. It helps me to know that there are other people out there dealing with all this stuff. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/3tXl8_-iun7E2MKdO3EtK_QZNTTGxm_rc7Ecm9pNelWXITlXYK_XOGkFN3my-BK6l0O52dgh-Uf4bzXBZ3TOeCdvNW4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=89.92">01:29</a>): So it’s a little therapeutic. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/-EKYc7CTIxxBXvQ8YCCjJy91Mb_YjtVa2hAauGBSqHh-REe56h3M7Gj3U5IzPR8hukMv3F9JaiR06G3wDwip5_uBMew?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=91.48">01:31</a>): It’s a little therapeutic, but I also want people to know about it. It’s like people should know about this stuff, everything that all we’re going through to bring this to you. You know what I mean? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/qmlJyb-BEoWTSfKemcLU85YimTyNH0Mxfqhx8pr0TOvPlm4Cp5ziO3Axn3WWBo535GsFNAqdjnPc7V0lbjyM54e1WKk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=103.86">01:43</a>): Yeah, I know what you mean. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Qm0bwTuLPLX1RiflrswxbLMqJln9XD_Wk-Yn6vyTjHY5-RziNcYGX6Zd5_41vYA3yQDiXPoJIBJT_NLD3ojH3Tel0GI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=105.48">01:45</a>): This is a process. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Yn3QYwyerK2CorWf3-ZMIAC0of8BgMDEVZRVe42gFhSIcKf_Ua5p_BDfpoLXnQOGsU2LRmw9ZqO6GrfJO7etqbdaJso?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=107.76">01:47</a>): I’m definitely always thinking of it from the marketing side and it sounds like you as well with talking to other creators is a way of collaborating and networking so that there’s a greater audience. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/QwhEzLaBftRFpF7s5YkarxFvJ5_vFnu4lZOjdYyb9BycvwbWpPCe86sbdNtaYbwyE7dNCqBAZCLYspnMEo2jqDOIXZE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=119.76">01:59</a>): Yes, absolutely. I’m curious to know, would you consider this, I know you consider it a psychological thriller, a Kafka-esque thriller at that. And I got to say, you’re right about that. Boy, this movie was really something I really– Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/UyMRkYs23kVue5QrkkcT_BH8iYShUlPNNWiKN_uEl48d_EkjJMe7UWUnWB9vHkSYRZq_D4gaJi-sjlx_x3NPPDwpJq0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=135.02">02:15</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/GVgSBVRDYMq5J0eRezmYZ2r4SPXRzsJknWWDzQFgc4gi1UMPacP1wS5GVXyrGB4NsEg52X6BKrbbdJqndtEEdyhFpKA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=135.24">02:15</a>): It wasn’t always easy to watch, but I really enjoyed it. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/i1SS7T-gpTJIDyJ-pmQN9WxpNYk2fqtohzM10WUT0jIFxdtGAGVxXrTwPVspuROZeM9ijumYdNs7P0hb9miiE2Spf7E?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=138.92">02:18</a>): Oh, wow. That’s very kind. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/JO0LEJ-9E4rZINb4YE2yEuId7RESpR9tpN9ExWGRGHXuVhtnCx5Rdr-nRm0PwaUYXnYG-fznTIrZw-ysxski7_NVRZk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=140.6">02:20</a>): I genuinely, especially after listening to your TED Talk, I was just like, wow, three steps. Some of them not as easy as others, I think. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/FtLVhYs9m6I0G4AIuABSV7SLqlhg3AMxepDU6H9gOh2mRUvOe-F-7eQxpGP-HzbNeJuXEp7eXuWbRAlSTLOWfXbQcgY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=150.54">02:30</a>): Yeah. A lot of years and tinkering and thinking about making something that doesn’t just work on the surface level of drama or enjoyment, but you can ride that. But if you’re willing to dive in a little bit, there’s supporting material and thought that give you an opportunity to create arguments for some kind of thinking or some kind of decision-making that you’re going through. And on that level, I think it offers something a litle bit more profound or personal to the viewer. And that was a tough thing to straddle for the last 10 years on making sure that we can accomplish that goal. But I do feel like we’ve done it. We showed it at the Indie Vegas Film Festival a week and a half ago and the reception and the comments and the crowds telling me different areas of their life that resonated with them with the film. (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/R2XJ8V7jAaZcfzuWyTQ8Z50xTr9-9baFZiG3gTKa3W9clF9XGke32VZKnMqc1uTAU6cHALRfVBbI0pwgmrkPouZArKo?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=215.38">03:35</a>): And so I’d consider that a success with the goal from the beginning of making the movie to be able to do that. And it’s something that I’ve always loved in independent film and films, especially when writing the movie. I was taking film studies classes, German cinema, Russian cinema, Italian cinema, film noir, science fiction film, and having to write these papers. And what do these movies have in common? Why are we studying them? What makes them noteworthy? Why do people feel like they have to keep rewatching them? Some of these key themes were important when going to make this film. The extra hard part about that would be having the $0 budget and just being kids with cameras and trying to do something so profound like this. And there’s a level of naivety when you’re young and feel invincible and ambitious. I don’t think I’d be able to do that today, but I knew that then that we’d have the time and resources to be able to do it probably only then. (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/RMOxtlBTvoTkSuN-rstNO5IBGqbY0HO-06lVhWI6kPfpz7jQ5ZP57-rzOGWb9Tg7oTWfZjYR54fDY3r4Rh5LtEDIJAw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=288.4">04:48</a>): And so that’s why we were in such a rush to get it done and I knew that it would take over a decade to edit the film, but to make it, we had that one summer in college. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/DwO4LPk-ufdgHUa6KeuNKjWbzljAewnpGwH83w90kONEDxiuM_FYny6BkMriwTJF2fVZXJY3m7lEEi1OD0fbXebKOAU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=300.94">05:00</a>): What year was this? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/aqualcM91phh98QpJ73GE83k35Uy0QnUDQ92QIU4eClFEhm8sW6qRLgiweePreim3MXAoE0luGMkgZU-wFwHkBDOlbA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=302.95">05:02</a>): 2012. So I was a sophomore going into my junior year of college. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/fLgPKjWOxACHcgfUje0OB72ufRg3R8a1_AYrRc9jvO4dKeu1nq0VxZXcgjwZUjxs0aVhz96FjAWwQtlHiP8VA9d2bzw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=308.94">05:08</a>): My goodness. And what was it that caused you to ultimately … I saw somewhere, maybe it was the TED Talk where you talked about having the idea at the age of 14, I think. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/-Z2JDD8uS35X9riDsYLZGjv4wKMLMkSPOuZdw55nmKOLg9DzTkyCZoRVHlhZ8FISNrW2xp9zKMcEs89lSJ8OuOXwc40?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=321.72">05:21</a>): Yeah, so in high school- Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/P3yL6G5v_DKOLVjts5sREc5arfyXrynzNE5em3QPwOYBHjFxrgz0h_VlZeucM4lXdJxC-MFHAYwbGM0tk1cqR60p4Xk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=323.12">05:23</a>): So that’s a long time coming. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/F6HEbXZWbzeTcp2idUgvVCDppajC8TKrlsltSSoiDy1yl9bm6Ok76G-FC86qAqQcVu9iUa3HvJRw4bJuIk413i8JbLA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=324.66">05:24</a>): Yeah. So been making videos for fun with my friends, never took it too seriously since middle school. In high school, we created a movie making class or a club that turned into a class and we said, let’s make a feature film. So I think the original percolating of the idea and the themes and location scouting and what resources do we have available stemmed back from 2007. So maybe 15, 16 years old. And it just continued to evolve until 2012 when we felt that, my writing partner and I felt that we were ready to get the ball rolling on filming. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/M4rSUd1meOIO9RipYkYfdS4QZ6hDumbfVSD7kyC4CqBO3gILbsCfz7hQLhfSSwN7EU9QOaVxC16r4T25MnczXX25vZI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=369.2">06:09</a>): Yeah. And in terms of locations, I noticed some were interior but enough exterior to where you could potentially run into a permitting issue. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/mjJNS_-t1JYvAb086Xdx4iGG5EYxcB_cfFrAYdxXmfZFfP4sI3wc5QlkL3wJS0TLiq1lF8YHIeURgIlgY5m0EaQ30cg?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=382.8">06:22</a>): Right, right. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/BGja0R3X9TmaikztBhJk-B6jYUYK22t6E6sBH5trdO6bSOqW0KUIwkKRzGlR0XGRALkdMW1Kq1NWo6m_e6BPKfSEvTs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=383.26">06:23</a>): Assume there was a certain amount of run and gun. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/ugpyIrjMc3940wJEdsFpPfcUhEkZvx_QfcsSmb-wp21n0YiclkWc5-BP35fdr8Tru5N_6wlACGSbrdTh6_R9h-5xd4A?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=386.14">06:26</a>): Yeah. I think in a way that only kids with cameras moving quick could accomplish. And because we were from South Florida knowing these unique special locations, these are locations that you can’t normally film without permits or without proper safety and insurance. <blockquote> <h4>Another thing about micro budget films is the utilization of a few locations. And so it’s easier maybe if you do three locations, maybe what if the whole movie was in one location? It’s a quick way of making a film with needing less resources.</h4> </blockquote> (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/zecz2YYCVK8BQyTyxhfleKbP45C9puryDdDgtEutJ6DIJ6m9Q4KVnJ2MzIAOR-_hi0NXzeG_hgbGYqakj-k71Jo_1Qw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=411.7">06:51</a>): And so that’s another cool thing that the movie does have that is a little bit more unique with micro budget films. Another thing about micro budget films is the utilization of a few locations. And so it’s easier maybe if you do three locations, maybe what if the whole movie was in one location? It’s a quick way of making a film with needing less resources. But I think it was important for us to take that into consideration, but also what if we didn’t need to be limited to that? What if we did the complete opposite and completely opened it up to the world and wherever the characters would take us, even if that was over a hundred locations, over a hundred scenes, which it did turn out to be. So while still keeping that $0 budget, we were able to have a higher production value just by freeing ourselves of the location concern. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/lNcOn8V5U4vnpklUbTwVlt5cq17lpVNFoqvae-qZjVTzKOYfHrwlyYk_pbBdxbPz9PbDBEro8gYWElu0zfyWW5KV6hs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=468.48">07:48</a>): Wow, that is amazing. I was going to ask you, how do you make a movie like this on zero budget? How do you get the actors and the crew? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/HmGSZyR22SVthPwUDjxpEfWdVMeV9tiJUpW8sH5RH5gSzEfW1N1talKCHKSyePfX0amFvMNPA_VT2pDGDx6ckCzagsg?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=477.72">07:57</a>): I think that if I didn’t have– Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/7PFhAWGafTztW8oQJoNCs5vg0TNDcU4tN_HTBs7tbdz0oDvAY6rMsAqb8BFfYRV5wafnVqPgqs_hbuSNmdHbrAmPYPM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=479.12">07:59</a>): And the underwater camera, Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/LnvXhsCSOiGSQEyvcWuFKAOtsx5XAzhY5H7VfNfIZUYkuxVRiLRxrMXDxBZAcIjoeoShFdiqYinR5QC00JQ6hfkrmgY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=482.04">08:02</a>): Yeah, yeah. Lots of resources. There’s that saying good, fast, cheap, and you get to pick two when you’re making production. And so we definitely said good and cheap, which meant that it was going to take a lot of time. And so I think if you’re working on anything creative over a long period of time, it’s kind of like fishing where you can catch a little fish and then you could reuse it as bait and you can catch a bigger fish and you can use that to reuse as bait and you can catch a bigger fish. And so because we had the luxury of time, especially when planning the production, we’re able to continue to grow different opportunities and relationships. So knowing that we’re going to be making this film, the catalog of people willing to work on it and locations we were able to find and stories and props continue to grow. <blockquote> <h4>There’s that saying good, fast, cheap, and you get to pick two when you’re making production. And so we definitely said good and cheap, which meant that it was going to take a lot of time.</h4> <h4>And so I think if you’re working on anything creative over a long period of time, it’s kind of like fishing where you can catch a little fish and then you could reuse it as bait and you can catch a bigger fish and you can use that to reuse as bait and you can catch a bigger fish.</h4> </blockquote> (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/2XmefWV06zUJimbNhTszr4sqvjNMmCgS57x0GK8qJTpUSPf452reFOkZJcTre06e17gqdqQXsCiSKXTh4NlDejF4rx8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=533.86">08:53</a>): I’ve always been resourceful and making videos with my friends and viral videos you kind of learn how to be. And at the same time, we had the digital revolution happening, so you didn’t need tapes or film to make a movie. So that saved a lot on cost. The cameras were also good with low light. You have battery powered LED lights, a means of distribution, things that you can learn online. And for actors, writing around people that I know. The main character in the movie is my sister, the bad guy in the movie’s my stepfather, the main character is my best friend. So these are people that I know that I could write around and write dialogue in a way that I know that if they deliver it, there’s going to be truth behind it. And a few other means of how we approach the production process all contributed to this naturalistic type of dialogue and acting where a lot of people came up to us after the screening and were so surprised to hear that this was the first and only time that these people have ever acted before. <blockquote> <h4>I’ve always been resourceful and making videos with my friends and viral videos you kind of learn how to be. And at the same time, we had the digital revolution happening, so you didn’t need tapes or film to make a movie. So that saved a lot on cost.</h4> </blockquote> Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/7BsRgpR-rn0m7mHkCBEx8N53WXEfDrt0O_q1yNJ9XKhZy6Mia9qgFrDCFUR7Ob8Del4mzB6ILJiiEEM9lXabX0PXxrA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=619.04">10:19</a>): Yes, they’re all very, very good. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/r8VWAc6VsSOzZMdQKm13ymoFJbDG4MHYrx2KwERWqqhwAZQ0onHFRVXqh33dg6dMXuKUD3gDRasoMgrdq6lCmf8VbA0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=622.56">10:22</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/qayWd8Hb0t3qeBIu01VF13yuJRxpBSXLNEAOooG4FmQqNjYjH9Oq1E_Nwwxd81zExuM3VdsgNXhMTQ1PtbGuVbcQqP8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=623.82">10:23</a>): Really great job of directing. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/8gtOjo6XGHsKTSCE4DHSQtoi-TCMt1xoVtO-RmifrdAMo37_jq17lneTEBhpx4APrJ2ffhPCRrw3c9BN_SAspbh7HyM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=627.22">10:27</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/wQldqASW_BN4LyPl5q2WdXEeIj-dBfuLBH01d27WTNwRBq7E4TtvarWV7XImcrZ-8x4AxMczZQibPiiBZhbTZZDTXHU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=628.18">10:28</a>): And now I can appreciate those words. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/pKmnRW947bB2MfAKlG_sINBOze229mUNSCRjuXlWsxbq65hFZMRRupmY3kGAL826E9QZ4GL57tzIIWtNhitx7m2KYqs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=631.28">10:31</a>): Yeah. We received the best director award at the Vegas Film Festival as well. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Qssn6fTfbmybkv0OnmNcwHQlbh95E3_RjDbZSMhvNh1GNgAJj1A6zB3GB6jH2T4vTXQATL_EroQobPv7Ex_9ALOTpKE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=637.06">10:37</a>): That’s awesome. Congratulations. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/HPfaVzjbQXRgrcl3Q0NOOG_ld3rz9u_0dj7FCLIMi_IoUA--fvVbAWntG5RX5KckOhdaBkkkp2KdqKxrTdqa2MEAJ4Y?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=639.16">10:39</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/BSh-i9ai5z5NHBpsa96vlFKyJJwhgv8uid9JYdPF-fPEM0FmFnon8vIAZAs1IrjZjUPBe9bE8-UnoCoS-hETm-iPsQ4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=639.38">10:39</a>): Wonderful. Everyone should see this movie. I swear to God, I’m going to recommend it for everybody because it has such an important message about being intentional about your choices. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/GiI_Q6_AgGWWo_sJLIt7aMiyTgm3JrmayGLzkKDYwCkuLqgpbmeogcED_Amz5UbtKyPmYKyCMorG_YrrcKfL1cs-lnE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=652.06">10:52</a>): Right. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/1EXVx2vwNAIpf3d6pZiqGAFnlmh-Xoo_KW9E0ZZJq2tysUQfbbHjSygy4Ju1ARaRRyfbQWQopbI3OCOvRvnLbnaFdWk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=652.64">10:52</a>): I love the part where you just learn and don’t regret. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/ZEG6nsW5X3pZsv813b_ijriRL5A4GAJAUYwXn2oljrlgvJUbNqW6DhsZ0mWBgtoV9Hv7qxNc2QpC0KndfP4bRdW--hc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=657.82">10:57</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/npm15x9np0omk1b7r3AsSDuq9x1LthsjMAeUEVY7RpoUrzEULH4rzPeDQOF-i0HMNLIn4hL6ggt0i7jevjkljaEp-J0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=658.06">10:58</a>): If you have a regret, you better figure it out soon and make it another change. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Pu_N1DZF1dewOWTn8-uz7-vkbQOBxfjrwKnRC8CWl3Lomx-yISul0-pBx3Lh4ObURFBFwx4dOFsBR4_PFdnl5cyKqso?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=663.66">11:03</a>): It’s kind of like the worst decision is indecision and we have this one life and we can sit and watch things happen. We can make things happen or we can say, “What the heck happened?” Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/dSJKurZQTezjyAYdam4aLmGSLJtdwAdZCPjQuY5dZVeRqDj-o7yaTZFnUdZiG8XxlZWvBTrsX81CurwVABVkmDGvcvA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=676.74">11:16</a>): Exactly. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/M5LWsBPhuiMXsIv8B-UuEj9hPcyEq50qk2xVtK4C5Pu-DvvIlo-6_MwHATHccCAeUiKdOk8aM3gxIpt5QJGf0FLRGzE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=679.98">11:19</a>): There’s something special to be had in each of those decisions, but the most important is to make a decision. I think when you watch the film, when you have that kind of in mind and you have that reminder, you’re helped to realize out of these three, what type of person am I? And sometimes that helps when making decisions is first realizing who you are. <blockquote> <h4>There’s something special to be had in each of those decisions, but the most important is to make a decision. I think when you watch the film, when you have that kind of in mind and you have that reminder, you’re helped to realize out of these three, what type of person am I? And sometimes that helps when making decisions is first realizing who you are.</h4> </blockquote> Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/WHc-SRVZQ18dXQlJI8LV0GwZL6zBjXwpAxCUtv5NqzpXzZFa4ZOVNfeT-hr1uZlwWq7ks_khHAulTJdbrEQnbESle7s?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=709.62">11:49</a>): Yes. It’s like interrogating yourself. Who am I really? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/AUltzy0owOrKhXP927jdnPHG9Puehxf2gq1KCavnN6dzVIC3Lw0XaTv7bEXigQMgoAOuMRdPUT2RVSsCoaSd4-U6eu8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=714.76">11:54</a>): Yeah. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/vVed-EEEzbUsBivQPQNKl-keQHLoyYJkEl4wfRoAxQTiL8UYDToP27F2BdMg4b9x3NwQikiOc8h9SkpeTT9xlDXJ6XE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=714.98">11:54</a>): If I went the opposite way, how would I feel? Is it instinctively good for me? Is it something I’m shying from for the wrong reasons? All these things– Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/yhdAmqQeogoSkWf4CLm18s_NI_G6bVle6pjt9iy60x3T25eabMtPDHKQ2t-3X5-JT71y842PM8vOqp-ENPMIZAeu7CM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=727.12">12:07</a>): I think that’s what good art or independent film and cinema should aspire to be is something that isn’t just trying to tell people what to think or preach, but hold up a mirror in a way that people are able to see a reflection of themselves clear enough that they can see something new that they hadn’t seen before within. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/wtqNI5jvwEjBg_tkSX4yq--_Kl7q36xgggu13cTdhVgRrG6Z9iiVz9bQ2VgHSuEJYkKdWX6Z24WzLGXEWJTNVbzG3SM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=748.28">12:28</a>): I like that. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/WQM2_w2ZpvSoFPDKKX7RFHmdsh5nBrlF5fmUa3QGWwyEcT7d9ZiMwNv-BPaSZ7ed1rYausmSOs01Sbk933efLb792tc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=749.06">12:29</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/b1P80Lj9hUnpWk7wQjGTy-z35vUQVbShw2bTyOn7rsxDsKekHsn3yUjB6nzd4rO06EkyH2igv553oLvJehJKCA_4Ku0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=749.54">12:29</a>): I like that so much, honestly.That’s what I always look for in entertainment of any sort, whether I’m reading a book or watching a TV show or a movie, something I can relate to, something that I can say, “Oh yeah, wow, that’s really good.” Even when they’re entertaining, even if they’re just silly movies, there’s usually something in there that kind of connects somewhere. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/4jDw_yGN2GLCNP9VJak4AOZVYcSFOoB2NYwuasLfkE8URBMYIdiDjVbIdts1XMKRPBQbijjCqyi7shmgo0UuSZdTmaM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=775.9">12:55</a>): Can I ask you what your favorite line or scene or … Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Fl-3XepFH1FiYDsbYmnECjkLhxuBF5gWGZZOi3SSkKcHARewIPQk0P04CWzNlPEUDHBvmpRKKcgCAKanGyfQo9GQTeE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=780.84">13:00</a>): Oh, wow. Oh gosh, that’s hard to say because there were so many parts where I just kind of went, “Oh, wow.” The way you brought in the eye doctor, you keep looking at these screens, you’re not blinking, not blinking.That can mean two things. It means you’re staring at screens too much or you have an unblinking view of the world, something like that. I mean, there’s a reason why he’s fearful and I can understand it. It’s funny because you mentioned something in your biography about some of this comes out of traumatic, difficult experience from the past. I’ve been through difficult experience in the past. I know what that’s like. It sucks. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/MAF4_YbYtVZ2Sk4CmpyeR5fBJNPrm14KXaWwbXCjYaEKFGVJDU3xakVsyXr2B4NghKzg48LCSb35gNh72NDqizQAMIM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=832.6">13:52</a>): It definitely affects how you see the world. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/abjJHmrvWZWP2zXz_db9VTS8NkKTruwjqodZxjfgHgpYeYNvMpJJX21Uj7A6AfyIFuNsv_ooviVchfxUjaIz8AVcqso?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=834.98">13:54</a>): It does. It does. And it does make you more cognizant of how differently different people will view the world because I don’t know about you, but I moved around a lot when I was a kid and it was a little bit disruptive to say the least. But I learned quickly that, oh, things in California are very different from things in New York City, which is also very different from things in the DC area, which is … I’m in Columbia, Maryland now, which is kind of between DC and Baltimore, which are like two different universes too, in their own way. So it’s just really interesting and intriguing when you deal with that kind of difficulty, any sort of difficulty like that. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/xCIirPAnLGKFJV8QV701Arqpy_MJIrIEJbHtKJjPNqgT5sVyHA4o42ql9OXBLNCcjAagS-S1nY68jAiiDS28xC06gGU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=883.98">14:43</a>): And sometimes it’s interesting from the writer perspective to even discuss it because I think my main attempt was writing something honest in a way that only I would be able to tell. And by getting that specific, it became a little bit more universal for others. But I have my own ideas when I watch the movie and also self-discoveries. So sometimes some of the things that I might think about I don’t believe to be the intention of the movie, but that’s something maybe I get out of it. So it is a blurred line sometimes just if I were to tell you how I felt about a scene or something, does that make it the intention of the film? I don’t believe so, but have you experienced that as well with some of your writing? <blockquote> <h4>I think my main attempt was writing something honest in a way that only I would be able to tell. And by getting that specific, it became a little bit more universal for others. But I have my own ideas when I watch the movie and also self-discoveries.</h4> </blockquote> Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/FhHZwzVgYb1fuNNhM8EhmDJ513InuudtwREnvhn3Gb4Bf15NBCVfvjJsHsfDiyDhy3GliKbE1_pPG8CYghQ1eH323Cg?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=941.77">15:41</a>): That I’m saying something that I didn’t know what I was saying? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/OMHrNeSUWz4V-bFzCLY16KA1xn9PatYU5_XyK-vg8PMuhWY28GttkRwkg7L--wZsUpQ3BVTCEwoORWY0Ic0hFH1iqkE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=945.65">15:45</a>): That you’re saying something that you believe true about the story that might not be. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/lmCY-Hz782SEIALmRnOs0BiGLwxOSFkMsqDTTbKkpA8C83Gk-3vTVK86HB6xm9SVVI7igYDI5mmfLRup4XMOSBYG914?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=953.47">15:53</a>): Oh yeah. I frequently run into situations where I think I’ve made a point and people are confused. It’s like, I’m not getting it. Okay, okay. I’ll work on that. Gee, I thought it was perfectly clear. No. And also– Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/uaNOw9y1uEgi52o7UW3YdwxEF0WQ-i9CzzuydeTq5YKh4S6c4H7_N42NlOiXKy0qTVY-i8UKwz6RF4H0OuynKFaaX3c?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=975.45">16:15</a>): And maybe it shouldn’t be. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/6yTf1VQJ41Of1n1xhmdUQOGNy5WP_lT96ScA-QtubS3rKVWv3R-C6wDQhiI1v-kgvhJM3lp9Akn2uk6mT6YtEOzPd1o?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=976.25">16:16</a>): And getting there faster. People are always telling me, “Get there faster.” Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/39sMHt5Afu9jbnx3kXFXKLOXMqRTRusKNgUDBcTqQP550bNT65C6ZhV5GIQmqSrSnNRGThJ5tzJhmz74MwPyDHQqQFI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=979.97">16:19</a>): Oh, okay. Yeah. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/7GvVe9Huuu_8QtOj43rLByTIhd87rWRYoLWqQMwomAO3iBVY2Wx-JVgWrhfIUmRLeJYq1RB-EdH48pMzmnvcM9Ru5Hs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=982.15">16:22</a>): This is what’s gotten me into shorts, I think. But I really admire that you made a whole feature.That’s an undertaking. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/NOuneTQ6mKcMJEmaBrcNTrl0aQhgKbyLBYtoPmmIVxbxBPwhkAwr2d6MSZWwb_bcAFeieyyeZjZlIt3cDk5zd9dllSw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=993.69">16:33</a>): Yes, definitely a lot of work, probably a bit more than I … I knew that it would be a Mount Everest of a climb. I probably didn’t know that it would feel like two Mount Everests of a climb. I had been making some videos and they did well and I experimented with new ways of telling stories when making these videos and capturing real moments with people who weren’t actors and finding the story, setting up situations, plopping it in the real world, filming what would happen, leaving the door open for magic moments and understanding that the longer we left that door open, the more that we’d have, but it just meant a lot of work in the editing. But I love editing. I love editing in real time while I’m holding the camera thinking about how the edit’s going to happen. And so making these videos, I said, “Okay, so making a movie might just be a hundred of these videos. <blockquote> <h4>I knew that it would be a Mount Everest of a climb. I probably didn’t know that it would feel like two Mount Everests of a climb.</h4> </blockquote> (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/R6kpIIJOecLmgHDkjVo-ZXG0B3Serkhk_uGFzL_CgHTORS7ECmeO9TnjIR08daeo5h51jBtdkCqJCjABDNNNoz9GTpk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1059.75">17:39</a>): And if each video takes me a couple months, a few months to edit, then that’s just a few months times a hundred.” Well, I think that was true, but then there’s another layer of now I have all these scenes, now they have to be put together. It’s almost like starting from scratch or something completely or entirely different. And so instead of a few months to do this final thing of the whole movie, then there’s this extra layer that I probably didn’t account for as much where I thought it would just be piecing these scenes together. No, at the end of the day, I had a five-hour cut of the movie. So things had to be consolidated and rethought out while still retaining the entire story within my head. And so there’s different iterations there that probably added another few years to the process even after I had that five-year cut. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/_wdB_xSDuUh1hMVE06FE2i-WgrSpH4TunWszL29zWoSK-BK6jtnYNz-M3vzBH9xiZSe6SgZopwADBVHiqJjScqG-k68?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1123.25">18:43</a>): Sounds like writing a novel except with video. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/STG1DPOaaZ7L78Yjrknjm3BVutML2ooX-t4jl9JhWuw8x6yxpkgqU1xvpRvjO9ICfOwoMNBbe16Cips50x2exQBl38o?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1128.63">18:48</a>): Oh yeah. The original script was at least a thousand pages of notes and writings that had to be figured out. How do we put this into the story in the screenplay format? And then once we got on set, how can we say it a couple times and then throw away the script? (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/OSQDMR50_jvgk7VpiUcOq1EPGoZbhjOi4P8yP1Q6u4Ls_eUJu1qMLelf91uBzkeZ8TxWgrOXiNsL3JJ0IxmZgiC-_Sc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1152.07">19:12</a>): Once we got to the editing, how can I completely throw away all of that and re-se what we have? And only then I think that we’d be unjudgmental enough to see what the special stuff was and not just holding on to the original intention. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Casc93LENoKGN_1QPZqs4QEsrYYKTZL40czInEKK12x84mwPiEj9bOAlhKltGS1qJKt8CluaAyRy-yocLYqTloiuK3o?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1170.41">19:30</a>): Oh, I will say one of the things I remember most about the movie is the continual attempts by the girl to reach out to Nathan and his continual, “I have to go to work later, maybe sometime.” Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/f8ABKyqu3lmNqEjowvY_dIjd4hnzRP7HxA1V2mjIxfCjfFqcBtfPWG3_uJFY01O3-LxDZil4J7abKWsvpdHDo45fvlw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1185.33">19:45</a>): Yeah, I think that’s definitely the internal struggle of the introvert or someone who the world is calling them and is so open and they have this thing inside of them that makes it like a wall or so difficult to reach out even when other people seemingly want them. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/HcigYHJMxQe2BNHbBgqa4t9UDD7BeU3yJWcMjSDg7ZbmDuR5Eo5YEoTlMyf_WIMwPsQIMM-tWhEtx4iSreW-sQ_zRbQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1205.11">20:05</a>): Yeah, exactly. You can just end up isolating yourself terribly that way. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/3OOWrT2ZUpKT3qw_6eeP3UmC5I-bii_PEg16Ph-JuAr8SiZxH4_nY_zqEeQzVzlAdRCegV0cdgc4jHR_KelnpgXrty8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1213.77">20:13</a>): I think it’s a spiral or a void where you kind of enjoy it though, where if you’re feeling depressed or removed or detached from reality, it feels a little safer not to be around other people. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/20uPcrCpwjEwG0VILBdW8V_inV9LhxyFOemdP220B5eWfz-rnfBcphx9JuGFmwCHOxPCFXpvx8kz64uxJBFhirOetls?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1232.81">20:32</a>): Yeah, absolutely. I can completely understand that sort of frame of mind. Do you have a favorite movie that’s out there? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/nUvsh7tnbJ6zNQktLwlrRef8WIURMV7IKU-Mo6XYIHyxB4AUM1eNKkAHxM32XvWT20g5zvdaxrayKNgmVDSKQmph-8Y?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1242.91">20:42</a>): Yeah, I think it’s a great question and I love hearing other people’s. If I had to name one, I would say <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_Me_If_You_Can">Catch Me If You Can</a>, which is the Leonard DiCaprio, Tom Hanks, Steven Spielberg film. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/VGo2x7byQd4IE0whcQDWEv84_gRSIBbhPczD62ehKaKsgTEV4h2hlQOzbgIkgawwXE4YvErJMKEULTjjk6d5xfBqScQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1257.89">20:57</a>): Excellent film. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/KsflAMTt8wqM0PxgUtcthiDEhAN9sbIwWla8CQ_QzgWOk6HvEQOzav0w_tN--y8VAJqwmi5KjvDkh9GVkOKEqxqnRb0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1258.39">20:58</a>): And it’s a well-made movie, great story. But I think when you ask someone what their favorite movie is, sometimes what’s included is something personal. You can kind of learn something about someone. I didn’t think more like this until later, but some of the themes of Catch Me, If You Can, are the whole running away or finding yourself or at a young age trying to discover who you are, even if you have to make it up or storytell. And so there’s some key parallels between my filmmaking journey and the making of my integrated marketing company and Frank Abignil’s story there and the broken household and running and finding yourself. So I think it’s a beautiful story and something that resonates with me. What about you? What’s your favorite movie? Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/1ULh4FkjZzvlsTniYKZMTc41OIcSGWxpTPYpfa1HWWLbkNDXb7uHKVGqfcX4XoaqPpHlVnYok1RmBchOPg0wBFtZc0c?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1320.87">22:00</a>): My favorite? It’s hard to pick a favorite, but I will say <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Clayton">Michael Clayton</a> is one of my very favorites. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/yGovXFdD0p2ocLXJwimM3psHpUCknLrkwUYFmbd88keNZJjJonl1pG6ElwsrU2BlkeejXVOLPrlts8vBysZhiuofcEg?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1326.57">22:06</a>): Great. Great. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/OPRVFQRyMKLr3Tez-BIp76S_1zwz0mq-3kbADzXf8lwvi-0GWmTwJKjWWBENjIrasxoyGA_xSUraVJXQY1ojCTGBtWE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1329.27">22:09</a>): I used to practice law. So of all legal movies that are serious, that one is my favorite. My other favorite lawyer movie would be <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Cousin_Vinny">My Cousin Vinny</a>. Both of them are fairly realistic in the sense of they deal with legal ethics and stuff and they deal with … In the case of My Cousin Vinny, it’s actually a fairly convincing courtroom scene in the sense of he really does do real cross-examination. Although with the woman with the glasses, you wouldn’t do that. You totally would not do that because you never know what she’s going to say. You always have to know the answer before you ask the question. Anyway, having said that those are two of my favorite movies. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/ZgeBZm77y_lu9IGhlbcwwAEMxrSkNOeSb8Bzt7dh0dT8ulE_E4mNK_Vp2tjUP-c7NRbfrTP1KBV93xnFYLZh4rytxsc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1376.03">22:56</a>): That’s great. I love good courtroom movies. I even took a class in college called The Reel Law. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/mCFw0YpmtvCuN0jeYGzpEFAwZru6N1UpPMtplkkd1BhFIo9DMcplvwjj-ZRFEephhv1FA1jzgcG6uuMjyENHcUudYXk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1383.71">23:03</a>): Oh gosh. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/mwqYNKwNQUiue-c4sE7WXGwO97b4td8W5HwAA47ZVFNqadE7-bgghqm0dXM-LI3DIQZjbxffgjUaU8bc0y_ddhr2d4c?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1384.57">23:04</a>): Called R-E-E-L and it was just the analysis of different courtroom dramas. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/4gAc-vakB53uP-Rfd-LhBPRNvblFyx2NnGXk4nwiUpV2RoRS-UnHtOlS8vE72C8b_fJ1_cUc62-fvMlyqa5VO9OWIsQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1391.13">23:11</a>): There’s some good ones. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/MYIzZKg-Ua-GAZInniN9VKmlITLSpQC-23WD71SYZgLLEIZ21-bGQO5y5HpMNJhE81QnfPWzbznmfWcNMrviChTVDlg?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1392.43">23:12</a>): There are. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/64cgBwdjBC4beYEXCi4U9lu1kKMcWTlebCjpbFNt-BL-rf57f_kZTCHtz_kYzqFinPGPfRQJfmKZ9GMqeOdvq5yskXY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1393.63">23:13</a>): And then there are some bad ones. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/cCqIyzHvTzKD6xYibRNIzNWO-2g4atsL5Vn8R2CCGIpjqLJkAXG0i3YT6pmFUwmsK1vDw3EyhwuLeIswQ-Q-xOLwTEg?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1396.53">23:16</a>): Yeah. But I definitely think maybe a little bit more on the good side. It’s more exciting to see cross-examination and the drama that can happen between two opposing arguments. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/eHcnVwBmfDatPuTcCOJAlOVrJMKiTUtTejBhi54x4qGkiu7b8wrSIyRj_vsf6NnZEAGcWwoU2Y6NqXyCJJt-k2cDcy8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1410.43">23:30</a>): They tend to dramatize it quite a bit, but most court cases are pretty boring when you come right down to it. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/uiDDvBFoku3Y16iCfBnksmD1inJz2KnXaoiFT2iG0Xd8sf-gslSIDMC5EJmKE10UrV6zDYo53VmcxzS9O4kBIJo2EIg?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1418.05">23:38</a>): True, true. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/OTpcCqosasVw8RpIc5wwlVzwLKoYFI5OL0Djv_mPfRQ6VGXHsfGCoRrCDnnBGr7jnTMZvDfOPkY7Y9O7yQDJWuxjl7Q?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1418.81">23:38</a>): But that’s okay. I’m into conflating the conflict a little bit just for entertainment’s sake and all that. But anyway, so when is your film going to be available to the public? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/A5kAn2mynzX5K14BwlRzlM3LM_gw2DY_g07tgw-RhN_C6OcFlnz5DdteaLsuVVZjAQ0zYxbNok7XQ4xcwC15jkMCVSY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1433.07">23:53</a>): So we’re continuing to do the festival tour right now probably for the next six to eight months. And then around the end of that, we’re looking at online distribution, streaming services available on YouTube, Apple TV, Tubi, Amazon. And so I think just follow along at contradictionmovie.com and stay subscribed to our newsletter or Instagram at ContradictionMovie and we’ll be updating from there on where you’ll be able to see it on streaming. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/ATzmfYgohGRPaVLYPB7u7uTaCe5EWXqvsFSuKhxQajYcs6kwlfnP313NkDPoRWA649TVwDtbrJwt2R8LG73tbUp4FR4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1475.75">24:35</a>): Fantastic. Good to know. Everybody see this movie. It’s fantastic. I’m telling you. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/vgSGnPzFMlB7rhLQeuyZPxKqtfhX6W1aKpTs7EuUpRZW74Mm5ExbFbCO0MbxHTwebDZLCz2gSR_v8h-dZkD4KVAJMjk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1481.45">24:41</a>): Thank you and thank you for having me today. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/dSNi7RC2vRgh3DU7IU2FTSHmd1NacgGYtMM7uMZjmKaQYZ2loDKKQwqV6iHAVUAmdwA7_rBbFtJJPH-DzF4v0dRr-lI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1484.49">24:44</a>): Sure thing. Would you say it qualifies as a neo-noir at all? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/kBR5EKLGkg-NtYwPK7n_0fbF9IsuagLpIeLCDJzB-A4fIbB2KUM8GUwk0I9nMQB7qP6H9AorYwotTBG2mxt-qqJVPiU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1488.91">24:48</a>): Yeah, I think so. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/aWWhJqrKcEzk0rfQ2o2iwByOWD4AVfoSw5fy-tlDs7k1EAM2-N5ez53aaJLz1FQ4vdrR6yGmeHIsrRo68o3WSOAP-3I?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1490.77">24:50</a>): Oh, good. I can put it on my podcast then. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Mpi1ObPvPZhcKh9xIORWTwnJ-2dfwYLPAqTgzvJAIqF9YrBi3fmSksp9cg2y2WvJo0MIPsa5fQJc2CkL192ta6o2w3w?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1493.23">24:53</a>): Yeah, yeah. It’s definitely got the noir elements. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/VmCuw2gJR2I8IdtgOQi-WTYi3JCBDsM5LMsce6lBGe2zG2n-EZqw1bdvKj7kZluCYNji-qWwojW0qV-PSz372wKxv2s?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1500.93">25:00</a>): I love it. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/MaKtBa4jkTm0fON5HnnbmCNlwd_S1Ql1XzRI3oPy0CxzinXdX77go1pqKY_YsY1-EnuzyLkKfwxmrZOTPK2Yb2o4R0g?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1501.75">25:01</a>): Yeah. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/QHURMOu-heS9aTJE5fQakecuxbqVUdcImfZaIQeKV8g5cjRjLxPrvEtrY5-4gX7EoJvHT-8uTgJX2f9tFiTa6kOyJlY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1503.91">25:03</a>): Amen. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/KaBlzXhL124Na5ywnk5-R1KFu5hGg_Lwdddm3xR8RG1yZQKJ-RGTZcoJPZH6xscxWWRQbUvjfjtEVxpbM9qHc8RBKJE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1505.47">25:05</a>): Yeah, a little hard to classify the movie, huh? Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/BDk3U1VzP-yxncpvuB6iSjsG1PM7NQv2ZNP0fBBFyiVo-Slk5GfA6ZU3Wga0R5QNgWop9Lh1XLpy1bc9MIpBeMUi-jY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1507.83">25:07</a>): Kind of. It’s a psychological thriller, noirish, a noirish psychological thriller. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/PtjBNjt4wPvD1GZpdQMCTDUQ1f_HSAzGGM4zbQ0A7wkp6Rx_yjAxG_flu-SmSuAgqgxXCzTGtNfsErxcrx3GDtsb-FU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1515.93">25:15</a>): Yeah. Docustyle existential. I think it definitely fits into the bureaucratic, chaotic, Kafka-esque world and it’s just a fun ride and I think most maybe not psychologically thrilling from a physical stakes place, but actual psychological stakes within our own thinking and how we view and approach the world and decide how we interact or engage with the world. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/t9GVQCYAb1juay0SriuuQaLXKto-yBvxLfhtnK96uY3juAHpvreQqrXwfOz1fjo60PDfxjVEbcH7CkgccK2-8HNlHgs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1553.01">25:53</a>): Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, is there anything else you’d like to talk about before we finish? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/gb1vaKpc-MgQ16NkAh-KKh6fjjyzMygk0T4jyrq_bys1ohhV8e58tfHQeunba7yY1mjDEiungSClVjAnxYDyCVXbKZM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1560.91">26:00</a>): No, I think I appreciate your thoughtful and engaging questions on the meta subsurface level ideas behind the movie. And we’re not just talking about this happens and this happens and this happens, but why did things happen and what was going through my head and the character’s heads to make such an interesting movie? And I appreciate that because I think that’s what we want to do is change or introduce new ways of storytelling because independent film should be a grounds for experimenting and new ways of telling stories. And we were nervous about distributing this film because it might not meet classical audience expectations, but if you’re willing to set that aside for a minute and experience the movie, I think it ends up being a litle bit more worthwhile because the years over a decade of work and thinking are right there on the screen and it’s very clear when you see it, how much work it takes to do this stuff and the work pays off and you get what you pay for in time. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/3IINHK6HZFJ1YzdiheC90fwhJXKVaumNkwGdw7nFUaFBD_NWxyNp03ux5fcDHAyrPHblvFoHLC8P-EoJdH9RMLGD-qU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1640.17">27:20</a>): Absolutely. I agree with you a hundred percent and I just love hearing it. So thank you so much for being here, Mr. Kafka. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/_6J_w1o_gWPeZl8NgG2wFI6HXrHi5FnQMwxRNNEVZwy3LvkT3g4k1zpwdiOpjjpTIxvVVRL3LKIQkSRR9KqfiQiXsrk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1649.43">27:29</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/5To8yLcMcBbEAalvigE-MNB78uzzbnlcmAwIftB3fi4QdKO6sJWNwa9Bt5bxhFu-2iXPS6n2xiD-GgnDns7jzo5D4kY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1650.47">27:30</a>): Kudos to your relative who wrote that short story about the bug that just really gutted me when I first read it. I read it when I was very young and I was like, oh no. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/d48Z4gMMEt0ai8AK4t2guzeYrHkMP8PUmwSbtaGVieQETAZ_UqqaUaD1UrpB0yajilfKC1reF1DtqLjDAoai6Y2CRa4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1660.37">27:40</a>): Yeah. Well, I was excited before even this movie to make the metamorphosis and we’re excited now to, that’s the next project that we’re working on and hopefully we talk again in the future about the feature film adaptation of The Metamorphosis. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/VG8_MeMmB2HwtMioo4DpqCVdxEI_uTCBkGltgd3r9B96TteLkE8iB2-5xSmoQ0x237ggiKQvJd5vUBNdtLyeH9jFjMk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1676.89">27:56</a>): Wow, Kafka-esque, totally. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/KBeFUBvm_anct08TLIxGxUdK7uSvaZnaMKYW14_HLJWLBnb83keyzdpvNhP2jS97rE1u_GBhSkCvnDLGusWgONybnKs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1679.91">27:59</a>): Yes. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/XqsiRyB-a8cKnHYkWCME5ZAR-KtdkJ5j6yQMlf7xCmcULU4uOQh6yIEX0l6C1XKWDcOdtGG6CJ762_6lhQk1YvAc1zY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1681.55">28:01</a>): Do you think being named Kafka has helped you here? Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Bc1Qtk6uVuqmjQFptvREMSPSWND9RZIQpIPqn6efFPKP2lQpyCVd7blcZaTgALStbVFqtWyObjYA86g5BL24FYJ_kI8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1685.71">28:05</a>): Not yet, but it’s something that I do think that will be part of the process and everything happens for a reason and there are some parallels in the way that we look and the way that we write that are sheer coincidence and not to be thrown to the side but utilized for what we’re working on. And so I’m excited for that because I think that Metamorphosis is a brilliant story. It just exists so much on the metaphorical side and the brilliance of that book. So how do you make something so literal as a film out of something so metaphorical as a short story? And I think the only person who can adapt Franz Kafka might be Pierce Kafka, I’m excited for that. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/UQ755MisjP3YQnqQgOiTW-1iCpfwbjMVy_tjz-U9RtOHd1h4Sndw7gH8yoPBWGJ26LjIERX88d8vOA9l8e_A5yAc_3A?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1736.53">28:56</a>): Well, I’m excited to see what you do. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/aqdZPC2LPzr9h4mCyZ1J5r0ArmOwLBcqPcmDCzJfToXvSFhKspgl7V35zFJ22yhLoGQl0u_oiaUeCJ8DPM-WqE0p7LI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1738.87">28:58</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/d4TMR0Wdh1apNXqJ5aViXdkxSpFfFGuPISb5h91N-UsOflggRLJI2CQ396gWNEFTo6UJK1XwLWtuqWEcCHUNq736RwI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1739.15">28:59</a>): I will be following. So thank you so much for doing this. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/AXKfUxG7XPwo6EVbDtyLh7fNfVF_dtJCb7JPHR1RgKBN65hzaLbJGNW7W5NlNebjx_ItDPLHLwW6xtxO9TiFjf7Su2g?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1743.83">29:03</a>): Thank you. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/7ZQBpFGos1yY29TL2S8HXAWi4EedOEhF9oaCkrVpraXjvdZLBQHqZC3gFljMKSbHEHtNGD3xmkJOGzzlm2UARi3RXms?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1745.09">29:05</a>): Thanks and have a great weekend. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/_MO-4T4NFHqoahy8QLkigMN90VcOMnMUFqd-o1G7h2b1aORLmrjO8iaKOeak7sRfEg_YnhVdOFqFktKO20iC9teSQEk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1746.97">29:06</a>): You too. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/PhClU1qonVEQtUHGXgTVjSlzkXF4k-XjMsIwOXA2cUDDRbhZplsGfTEXW0GrKIWWOHMZ8fQ42E90ilL20-wzRYZ7atY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1747.81">29:07</a>): Thanks. Pierce (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/IHZf8bO_xs2IfY9X9-gjFYSnsXXJy-10wiQXBnAG4LPx2WNGlunE9Yvo4ZdLIk4FXudELvZT3ktb1eD2tWM4fiSqxyY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1748.06">29:08</a>): Bye. Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/GLOsnICMOyh_3tHZDYLqkXj1d8PpRO_sKmrMkfZICCbBxY6Ba4UumZvJ3CvnU5XjpPn6pCyD11lGMzA4VK22mxjaJAc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1748.2">29:08</a>): Take care. Bye-bye. About Contradiction Contradiction is the debut feature film from writer-director Pierce Kafka, a psychological thriller set in 1990s Miami. The film follows Nathan, a security guard grappling with fear and dissociation, whose life begins to unravel after meeting Bucky, a charismatic and unpredictable coworker. As their relationship intensifies, Nathan is pushed to confront the fragile line between healing and self-destruction. Blending psychological tension with a coming-of-age narrative, Contradiction explores themes of identity, mental illness, and personal agency. To learn more about Contradiction, visit <a href="https://contradictionmovie.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://contradictionmovie.com/&source=gmail&ust=1779648288864000&usg=AOvVaw11JuF-7vcWZsJR37MMyJXV">https://contradictionmovie.com/</a> ***** Director Bio <img decoding="async" class="alignright wp-image-27198 size-medium" src="http://www.debbimack.com/dmack/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/2023-Pierce-Square-750x498-1-300x199.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="199" />Pierce Kafka is a South Florida-born writer, producer, and creative director. At an early age, he found filmmaking as an escape from hardships. Despite a difficult childhood, by the time he finished high school, Pierce had completed hundreds of online videos. During college, Pierce taught an Intro to Film class, led as Executive Producer of a student-run variety show that aired on PBS, and gave a TEDx talk about his storytelling principles. As the Co-Founder of integrated marketing agency, Kafka Media Group, Pierce uses his expertise in storytelling and production to create award-winning campaigns with Fortune 500 companies. His background in guerrilla filmmaking, fiction writing, and immersive production styles informs his creative approach. Heavily influenced by the work of his namesake, Franz Kafka, Pierce continues in the creative legacy through his story of Contradiction, with hopes of adapting Kafka’s writings into future film.

December 20, 2025

Episode 22: ‘Chinatown’ (1974)

In this episode, <a href="https://debbimacktoo.wordpress.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Debbi Mack</a> and <a href="https://www.prolificworks.com/author/frjameson" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">F.R. Jameson</a> discuss the 1974 classic neo-noir film, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown_(1974_film)" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Chinatown</a>. <img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-26945" src="http://www.debbimack.com/dmack/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Dark-Twisted-Ep.-22-Chinatown-1974-e1766088420819.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="360" /> You can watch the video episode <a href="https://debbimacktoo.wordpress.com/2025/12/18/dark-and-twisted-alleys-ep-22-chinatown-1974/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">here</a>. And here’s the movie trailer! <center><iframe title="YouTube video player" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/T37QkBc4IGY?si=U5td397-iIKfKJoE" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></center>  Interesting editing on the trailer. 🙂

November 29, 2025

Episode 21: ‘The Long Goodbye’ (1973)

In this episode, Debbi Mack and F.R. Jameson discuss the film adaptation of Raymond Chandler's novel The Long Goodbye released in 1973. Here’s where you can watch the video episode! So very 70s! :)

29 total episodes available

Deep-dive analytics for Dark and Twisted Alleys: A Film Noir Podcast

Frequently asked questions

Have a different question and can't find the answer you're looking for? Reach out to our support team by sending us an email and we'll get back to you as soon as we can.

What is Dark and Twisted Alleys: A Film Noir Podcast?: Crime writers F.R. Jameson and Debbi Mack discuss film noir at its best and worst.Join us once a month for a lively discussion.
How often does this podcast release new episodes?: This podcast updates weekly.
Where can I listen to this podcast?: This podcast is available on 6 platforms including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. You can also use the RSS feed directly.
Does this podcast accept guests?: Yes, this podcast regularly features guests.

Legal Disclaimer

Pod Engine is not affiliated with, endorsed by, or officially connected with any of the podcasts displayed on this platform. We operate independently as a podcast discovery and analytics service.

All podcast artwork, thumbnails, and content displayed on this page are the property of their respective owners and are protected by applicable copyright laws. This includes, but is not limited to, podcast cover art, episode artwork, show descriptions, episode titles, transcripts, audio snippets, and any other content originating from the podcast creators or their licensors.

We display this content under fair use principles and/or implied license for the purpose of podcast discovery, information, and commentary. We make no claim of ownership over any podcast content, artwork, or related materials shown on this platform. All trademarks, service marks, and trade names are the property of their respective owners.

While we strive to ensure all content usage is properly authorized, if you are a rights holder and believe your content is being used inappropriately or without proper authorization, please contact us immediately at hey@podengine.ai for prompt review and appropriate action, which may include content removal or proper attribution.

By accessing and using this platform, you acknowledge and agree to respect all applicable copyright laws and intellectual property rights of content owners. Any unauthorized reproduction, distribution, or commercial use of the content displayed on this platform is strictly prohibited.