For Context

About For Context

For Context is a podcast celebrating Northern Seminary's D.Min. in Contextual Theology by interviewing its graduates, faculty, and current students. forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast)

Publisher

For Context

Category

religion & spirituality · society & culture

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

24 Feb 2026

Latest episode

7 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

14 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   7 Oct 2026

   Season 02, Episode 03 - Fred Liggin

   For Context: Season 02 Episode 03 🎙️ Episode Overview In this episode of For Context, hosts Gino Curcuruto and Luke Stehr sit down with alumnus Fred Liggin. Fred reflects on his 10-year journey through Northern Seminary’s Doctor of Ministry (D.Min) in Contextual Theology program, balancing long-term academic work alongside 24+ years of local church ministry and nonprofit leadership in Williamsburg, Virginia. He shares insights on pastoral presence, navigating racial dynamics, building a culture of radical hospitality, and how personal relationships with those experiencing disability shape ecclesial life. Key Discussion Points * The “10-Year Marathon” & Academic Journey: * Fred lightheartedly shares what it was like taking 10 years to complete his dissertation—navigating three U.S. presidential administrations, watching multiple cohorts graduate, and getting teasing encouragement from Dr. David Fitch. * Reflects on how Northern Seminary’s core focus on contextualization, pastoral scholarship, and cohort collegiality remained consistent throughout institutional evolution. * Dissertation Focus: Hospitality, History & Trauma: * Thesis Topic: How a theology of hospitality within a racialized culture of collective trauma forms the witness of Williamsburg Christian Church. * Interdisciplinary Approach: Blends theology of hospitality, local history (Williamsburg/historic triangle), trauma studies, and racialization using an ethnographic methodology. * Post-COVID Evolution: Expanded his research to address racial dynamics and reconciliation as his local congregation grew increasingly multiracial and engaged in municipal Truth and Reconciliation work. * Ethnography as a Pastoral Practice: * Explores how ethnographic research is not just an academic tool, but an ongoing pastoral posture of deep listening, neighborliness, and presence beyond the church building walls. * Embracing Complexity, Tension & Inclusive Theology: * Love and Disability Inclusion: Shares how his coworker Garrett’s transition into using a wheelchair opened his eyes to door-frame widths, stairs, and accessibility—showing how authentic inclusion requires disruption, cost, and physical adaptation. * Curiosity over Certitude: Discusses how contextual theology complexifies easy answers, requiring leaders to stay present in local tension rather than seeking quick resolutions. Resources & Books Mentioned * Academic & Theological Context: * Lecturers & Faculty mentioned: Dr. Soong-Chan Rah, Dr. Dennis Edwards, Dr. Scot McKnight, Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Michael Gorman, Dr. Reggie Williams, and Dr. Ingrid Rivera. * Reading List (Fred Liggin): * The Psychology of Christian Nationalism: Why People Are Drawn In and How to Talk Across the Divide by Pamela Cooper-White * The Spirit and the Common Good by Daniela C. Augustine * Biographies of actors (e.g., Al Pacino, Matthew McConaughey’s Greenlights) as a lens for understanding artistic expression and underlying trauma stories. For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu/). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu/). * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu/). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu/). Transcript I’m Gino Curcuruto. I’m Luke Stare. And you’re listening to For Context, a podcast about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry and contextual theology. For Context is brought to you by Northern Seminary. For over 113 years, Northern Seminary has been training women and men for leadership in the church. If you want to check out all of the academic offerings Northern Seminary has, including a doctoral ministry cohort in Contextual Theology, please go to seminary.edu. A new cohort for the D-Min in Contextual Theology is getting started in June of 2027. If you’re interested or would like more information on how to come study with Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Jonathan Tran, Dr. Cindy Westfall and others, Please reach out to me directly at gcurcuruto at seminary.edu. That’s G-C-U-R-C-U-R again, U-T-O at seminary.edu. And I’ll give you the information we can chat. Welcome back to For Context. This is Gino and Lucas here, along with our guest, Fred Ligon. Fred, before I introduce you or have you tell a little bit about yourself, I want to just thank you. Thank you, brother. Years later, now I’m in the I only have you to blame for that, bro. But before we go two sideways, like a Dave Fitch podcast, let’s actually talk about you. Like, who are you? What do you spend your time doing? Where are you? Yeah, no. So I live in Williamsburg, Virginia, if anybody’s familiar with that, right? Like within Jamestown, Yorktown, Williamsburg, the historic triangle and the birthplace of it all, right? That’s how it’s oftentimes presented. But live here, been here 16 years, serving in a local church and one of the pastors at Williamsburg Christian Church. I have a lovely wife and two guys that I love, Ian and Javari and my wife, Allison, and We make our home here. I serve not only within the context of that church, I’m also a founder and an executive director of a nonprofit that grew out of the work of that church that came on the back of me walking with people out of social displacement for about 25 years back when I lived a previous life as a stockbroker, which is one thing Fitch and I have in common. Yeah. And so that’s, you know, this is my home. I do a good bit of, we are a multiracial, multiethnic, economically, socioeconomically diverse congregation. And so with that comes a lot of concern. I’ve been in vocational ministry for 24 years, maybe, something like that. I don’t know. It feels like forever. In the best way possible. Bro, seriously. Yes. No, and I mean that in a good way, but I am tired. But no. And then the nonprofit work, I’ve been doing that with the nonprofits 14 years old. Our church is 65 years old. I’ve been there for 16 years. And then I teach at William & Mary Adjunct, and I teach at various other places when I need to and have to find ways to continue to help make ends meet. Yeah, that’s awesome. And then just in background, what year did you graduate from the Contextual Theology program? Do you remember? Oh, yes, I do remember because I was on the 10 year program. Like, I literally just graduated. Okay. When did you start? Ten years, bro. Ten years. To the point to where I have watched every cohort member walk stage, and I have had Fitch visit our church by way of Zoom, and he would literally say in front of the congregation, tell Ligon to get that dissertation done. I mean... So much so, Luke, that the congregation got to get like a handful of members bought me coffee mugs. One of it says, be calm and finish your dissertation. So like it was a whole thing. Ten years, brother. That’s beautiful. Well, congratulations on your decade-long achievement. That must have been the most expensive dissertation anyone’s ever written. Brother, oh my gosh. Look, if I, like, my wife should get an honorary deem in for putting up with me all this time. It’s just, yeah, 10 years, guys. That’s so good. For anyone listening who’s considering the program, 10 years is not normative. It is not. It is not. But hey, for those of you who find, oh, I don’t have the time, you got 10 years. Yeah. That’s great. We need a new promo video. They’re super gracious about it. Even though they might talk about you, which they should, they’re gracious about it. They will drag you in front of your congregation and shame you. Only if Fitch is there. Only if Fitch is there. How much contextual theology changes in 10 years? That’s amazing. There’s like a whole new program in some ways. Bro, it’s crazy. And not only that... Yes, that’s what I mean. With my ethnographic project and with communal discernment and the way things work, you’re just constantly discerning and trying to live from this place of presence. Your community’s changing. And in my case, sure, it’ll change a little bit in four to six years, but you can kind of go on the thread like most of my cohort members did. But because I decided to run the marathon for the Contextual Theology Director, you know. Look, here’s the sobering part. It has taken me three presidential administrations to figure my doctorate. You can frame this however you want. A generation, administrations. I like to frame it in perseverance and intellectual honesty. Those are the words that I see. I’ll receive that. I’ll receive. We’ll call it perseverance. I’m completely good with that. No, but in all sincerity, a lot had changed. So if you can remember back then, Fred, what were some of the courses that you enjoyed or maybe had an impact on you? Well, they would give you three terms ago. Absolutely. They give you a VHS recorder and you would watch it on your VCR. And no, it was mail-in correspondence only. No, it was on a Laserdisc. Yeah. I’m sorry, podcast. We’ll get there. We’ll get there. We’re going to do it. So, no, it was, I mean, when you say a lot has changed, really, this is a benefit of contextual theology. And the benefit of the program is the heart of the program never did change. The professors may have changed, but the professors were always different professors that I would have never gotten them in the first place. That’s why I chose Northern in the first place. Mm-hmm. Which is lifelong friendships, right? And those, you know, those men, they were cheering me on. I mean, there’s some upsides to me being the straggler, you know, here is everybody’s like, you got this, bro. Like, we’re praying for you. Like, do we need to write a chapter? Is that allowed? No, but it was like, we’ve got you. And in all sincerity, I was like, help me understand what you did. I want to read yours. I mean, the collegiality of the cohort base was beautiful. The professor diversity was beautiful. The fact that it was driven through ethnographic process was beautiful. And yet all those things stayed the same despite 10 years, Gino, right? Yeah. I can’t really tell you, I mean, Northern changed, right? Institutionally, administratively, things change, but the heart of the program just evolved and expanded. It just got better. And I was a part of seeing it get better. Well, so could you describe some of those changes that you’ve seen over your tenure with Northern Seminary? Your tenure. Yeah, my tenure. My tenure. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. I mean, really, you know, Northern’s had some changes take place administratively. Right. And we’ve seen I’ve met new people come along who have stayed put. I’ve seen new professors rotate in who are, you know, professors of Northern. Right. But what I’ve also been able to see is the evolution of the visiting professors that come in and why they’re there because they’re breaking ground in thought and engagement that is necessary for the time. And I was able to kind of listen in on that. On the evolution, but I wouldn’t trade a single professor I had in the experience for any other professor anyway. I mean, I got to sit at the feet of Suchen Ra, Dennis Edwards, Scott McKnight. You know, I had David Fitch guiding the way. I got to sit at the feet of Michael Gorman, Reggie Williams. I mean, you kidding me? This was incredible. Would I love to sit at the feet at some of these others? Absolutely. But then I got to meet Dr. Ingrid Ferreira. So many powerful presence people of extraordinary humility who are leading thinkers, if not thought leaders in their field. But at the end of the day, whether they’re thought leaders or leading thinkers, they’re doing the work in their context. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s the part that I would pitch to anyone who’s thinking of taking a swing at a doctoral program and why I have, and Gino, I don’t know if you know this, but I’ve had three of my own church family members go to Northern. Our pastoral apprentice Melinda is going through the master’s program, and I’ve got two other people who are going through the master’s program. I’m hoping they’ll swing through the doctorate because I just don’t think— And I know this is going to sound like a commercial, but I’m not really sure you’ll get the level of education to the commitment of contextualization and having practitioners who are also scholars or, as we like to say, pastor theologians out here giving you real world, real life, thoughtful questions. And that, Luke, has stayed the same, I would think. What I’ve seen, it stayed the same. And then, of course, you have the week-long guest lecture, and forgive me for not knowing the name, but the week-long lecture that happens around the summer. The Brady lectures? Yes, the Brady lectures, yes. And you get to participate in that, and in my case, for two of the... Ten years. For two of the ten years. For three of the ten years, it was one of my professors. So I kind of got double the dose and it was just fantastic. Yeah, that’s so good. That is. So as you wrote your dissertation, neither of us have read it. What did you focus on? Obviously, you said you wrote two and a half. Your final version, version 2.5. Right. Where did you land? And maybe even what shifted along the way for you in your own context as you were processing things? Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So the core of my thesis never changed. I was working out a theology of hospitality within the context of our church and within our city, which is a diverse context. The emphasis changed. I was looking at how a theology of hospitality is central to the ecclesial posture of a church who seeks to be faithfully present with neighbors living through social displacement. And that’s where I was going. Where I landed was how a theology of hospitality in a racialized culture of collective trauma forms the witness of Williamsburg Christian Church. So I took an interdisciplinary approach, which was the brilliance of doing it as an ethnography. I was able to weave in theology of hospitality, for me, trauma studies, because I have worked in the field of trauma for about 16 years, and then history, particularly local history, and being in Williamsburg, that’s a really big deal. And then racialization. So I was able to take racialization, cultural systems, history, theology, and trauma studies around this ethnographic project and just do work. And then... I’m sorry, Luke. No, go for it, Gino. I was going to ask that emphasis, or maybe not emphasis, but that addition of racialization. Is that the post-COVID? That was the post-COVID reality, 100%. Yeah, because that’s when our church started growing far more in a multiracial direction. I was doing work. I was speaking. We were advocating. Me and his sister were a part of leading the city toward a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It’s the first that’s happened, and it’s created some reparational activity. We were doing work, and as that was happening, I was thinking, why would I not examine this in a different way? Yeah. And so how, how did you, what, what was the, what was the ethnography, ethnography? Where was it located as far as like, who were you interviewing or examples at the church? Yeah, it was the church. What was the scope? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, the scope was strictly within our church. But I, I did it a little, I mean, I stayed within the field of ethnography, ethnographic studies, but I, the context was, it was almost like a micro and a macrocosm. The microcosm So as you, you know, are someone on the ground saying, Yeah, no. Well, I would say, so my master’s degree was in missional leadership, and I started doing my first ethnographic projects when I was pursuing my master’s degree. So I was drawn to Northern because of ethnography and David Fitch. I mean, I’ll just be very straight. He had Roxburgh because I had Alan Roxburgh, too. So they had Roxburgh and they had Fitch. And I didn’t agree with hardly anything Fitch said that I had read about him. Seriously, he knows this. So I’m not. And I was thinking to myself, I know he’s brilliant and I don’t let him hear that part, but I know he’s brilliant. And I know I’m not, but I deeply don’t agree with this guy. So I’m going to go learn from this guy. Like, why not go to this guy? That says so much about your character right there. I was just like, let me hear from this guy. I had read from Roxburgh. I was a Newbigin fan. He was clearly a Newbigin fan. And I was like, OK, I met him. That was an interesting encounter. Al would know that. And I was like, let me just put myself in that position. Because the sale was, I had already completed three ethnographic projects before I ever started Northern. So ethnography as a pastoral practice was already a part of my pastoral posture. And I had tried to frame my sense of presence and the way I tried to serve in WCC and lead around that rubric anyhow. So what Northern did... Was called me to ethnography within contextual theology, which I had known missional theology, and I had intuited contextual theology because of ethnographic practice, but I did not have the vocabulary to put it together. I did not have the language house for it. And I was able to do it with some of the most beautiful people I know in my life, in my cohort members, and learn from them. And we had... We had a very diverse in terms of religious heritages. We had a diverse background there. And so what did I take away? A language that I didn’t know I needed, a language that I’d always reach for that I didn’t have, a different set of practices that I learned along the way, and a bunch of people to do it with from start to finish, so much so that I decided to do it for 10 years. Yeah. Keep that rolling. Why stop now? So many people talk about their cohorts and just how special they are. So are there things that you remember about your cohort times you spent together? Just give us a picture, like a glimpse into the life of your cohort. I can’t because it’ll break cohort confidence. But what I can say. Oh, my goodness. I have particular beef with one guy in my cohort who’s on this podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the jokes, the going to grab a meal together at the same place, you know, me particularly getting made fun of because there was one place I really liked and the cohort felt obligated to do it at least once during the intensives because Fred liked it. You know, like really, not to try and be cute theologically, but the liturgy that formed Among Us. There was liturgy and ritual in our life together that was shaped around these practices even together. We just knew there were things we were going to do. And we knew who was renting the car for the rest of us every other time. So it was like the sharing of resources while we were there. Babies were born during that time. And in my case, obviously went through elementary school. No, but babies were babies. That’s actually true. But but in the cohort, babies were born. Loss was experienced. Yeah. We’ve lost two of our members. We have two of our members are now with the Lord, like even now. Yeah. You know, we shared, there was a deep sense, I don’t want to make it sound romantic and say we shared life together because we didn’t share life together. We didn’t have proximity. But man, we... Oh, fun. All that kind of stuff. So yeah, that part’s real, bro. That part’s real. That’s wonderful. It is. I’m curious, I know this is backing up a little bit, but where did you get turned on to ethnography prior to coming into Northern? That’s a story I just like to hear. It’s a bit unusual. Yeah. Okay, so the short version of that story is, I’m actually going to start picking up a theme here with me, maybe. Okay. I went to three different programs for my graduate degree, and I went to two different programs for my doctoral degree. Northern was my second and final stop, and there’s reasons for that. The two different programs, Gino, that I went for my master’s degree were traditional MDiv programs, and I was reading books that they weren’t even assigning, and I had already read the books that they were assigning. And so I tried to find, and I stumbled onto Rochester University, who had the Master’s of Religious Education and Missional Leadership, and one of the driving points of that program with missional theology was moving you more toward contextual theology thinking. That wasn’t the language we used, but that’s where we were headed. We’re naturally a part of that. Now, let me pause. Before I transferred to where I got my actual missional leadership degree, in that second program— Yeah. And then that’s when I was like, yo, I want to find a program that does that, like on the whole all the time. And that’s when I stumbled onto Rochester. And then, of course, I eventually went to a different seminary that was of the Westminster background because I wanted to learn more about covenant theology and Westminster thinking because I’m not that guy. So I was like, why not sit at the feet of people who do that? But the program itself was like a traditional doctoral program, and it just... And I’m not even trying to make this up. I had read – for every course I had taken and I took four, I had read almost all the books in my master’s program. And so after four courses, I was like, I need to go. And that’s when I was like low-key disagreeing with Fitch on Twitter. I wasn’t tweeting him because I’m not that guy. But I was like, this guy drives me nuts. Let me go learn from this guy. And then boom, you know, he’s just one of the most important people in my story. You know that that’s kind of my origin story with Fitch as well, is that I disagreed with everything he was posting on Twitter, didn’t respond, but I was... Then it started to shift. I probably have shared this on the podcast. Sorry for... I don’t think you have, actually. Well, then it was, hey, why is this guy saying things about me? You know, that’s how it moved. And that’s when I realized I’m the issue. It might not be Fitch. He’s like the... He’s the instrument of revelation in my life. And... Not the problem, but I love to start with when I first met Dave Fitch, I didn’t like him at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, absolutely. And, you know, and mine was a little different when I forced to introduce to him. That’s how I felt when I first met him. I was like, this guy’s quirky and cool. But then having a conversation and again, really, he is a brilliant thinker and he is a practitioner and. So I went to every meeting that had something to do with suffering. Which had to do with poverty and economics and things. And I just listened and I met people and I interviewed people and I built out an ethnographic project my first year here so I could figure out how to be faithful to loving the people here. So good. So that was my pastoral practice here and it’s remained my practice. That’s so good. You know, I think you have a virtue that I don’t know the program would ever name as a like Benefit or virtue of the program, but you seem to follow your curiosity really well. And I think that’s one thing that clicks with the Contextual Theology program is I think there’s a certain curiosity present that brings you to this. And so where is your curiosity taking you these days? Oh, that is such a great question. Well, I appreciate you saying that I follow it well, because in my college years and young adult years, I followed it all to the wrong places. But that’s a whole other podcast. Where my curiosity takes me now, that’s a great question. And I would say this is going to sound maybe a little pedantic, but it’s just taking me deeper. It’s not taking me in any new places. Once you go through a program like this, especially if you do... If you do try to practice ethnographic practice as a way of being, so if you try to focus on being, I’ll make a pitch for Gino and Fitch’s book. If you actually take things like that seriously and you’re trying to work that out in community, your curiosity will broaden only to the degree that your neighborliness makes you broaden. And then your curiosity deepens to the degree that neighborliness requires you to go deeper. Which then for me means I’m not chasing smoke on all these other things that happen all around because even though I care deeply about what’s happening in Chicago, I don’t live in Chicago. So I can have thoughts about Chicago, but what’s happening in Williamsburg to my neighbors? So I’m not doing an either or, but I am saying that there is a proximity of locality. And in order to know the answer to that question, you got to be present in spaces that actually exclude church buildings. I haven’t had an office in that church building in 15 years. And, and there’s, you know, there’s reasons for that. And so my curiosity just takes me deeper as neighborliness takes me and wider as neighborliness requires. It’s so good. I’m, I’m wondering how you relate to this idea around curiosity, because some people find being curious, not that, um, Easy. Maybe they like certitude or certainty. And one of the things that I, how I would narrate some of my experience with contextual theology and how I discuss it with people locally is we’re complexifying things because things aren’t as easy as you think. When you talk about race, it’s not as simple as what’s put out there by any means, especially if you’re on the ground doing ethnographic research or even talking to a neighbor. That’s just reality. So sometimes with complexifying things, that can sound overwhelming and move people away from curiosity. Do you see a relationship differently between complexity and curiosity? Does that stoke your curiosity or Are you comfortable with complexity? Am I making any sense? Yes, yes and yes. I really like complexifying and I’m going to start quoting you on that because that’s a good word. But the answer is yes. I have to live in tension because I’m a white male pastor of a Multiracial, ethnographic, multiracial, socioeconomically diverse group of people where my leaders themselves are not white and where my coworkers are not white and not male and male and all of the checkbox categories of people’s ways of being in the world. One of my coworkers is in a wheelchair and all these different things that we all live with. So the people I love... And that love me come into my life with complexities. And to love them well, I have to be with them in their complexities. And to be with them well, I need to pay very close attention to the things that I would never look at on my own were they not in my life. And that requires curiosity because it requires a whole heck of a lot of self-introspection. Before my coworker, when I got here, Garrett, my coworker, was not in a wheelchair. Seven months after being here, he was in a wheelchair. I’m a 15-year younger than this church was looking for kind of pastor. The church was in decline. It was all white, median age, probably late 50s. And here’s this youth minister who’s driving on a rainy day, who hydroplanes, gets into an accident. I get a call from his wife while I’m at a lunch that he may not make it, and then everything changes. So... Before he was in a wheelchair, though, and I would go to a coffee shop, I would take the big table with the handicap sign if nobody was there because I wanted to spread out. Now, I look at that completely different. Before he was in a wheelchair, I didn’t think anything of stairs. Now, I notice stairs everywhere. Before he was in a wheelchair, I didn’t think about the width of door frames. Now, I always think of door frames, right? Because I love him and he loves me. And part of that is just it opens up your awareness to the complexities of life. And that creates a boatload of tension in yours. Yes. And it creates a tension that actually costs money. Because now I’m like, okay, if we’re having Garrett over to our house, I’ve got to spend money on widening something that I would have never thought. I mean, there would be no need for it. But if he’s going to be able to be here, then he’s got to be able to be here. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So now, and it was the same thing, you know, at the church, it’s like, well, how’s he going to baptize people? Like the baptistry is deep and to get through there, you know, it’s this narrow away. And, you know, like, so how do we get chair with an anchors and anchors? Right. That creates complexity and tension that you have to be willing to live into. And our natural tendency is to resolve the tension. But some tensions are good for us because they keep us awake. Yes. I’m sorry. Keep going. No, no. I was just going to say, and that’s why I value it. That connection that I heard you make between complexity, embracing complexity because love... And making spaces of welcome for the people that you love, which is in following Jesus, everyone, makes it really interesting. Dare I say, complexifies what we talk about for inclusion. We don’t have to go into that. But I think that because inclusion becomes not just the simple idea. Right. No, no, no. So, what we did... We thought it was important that and she thought it was important to sit up as close to the front of the church building as possible because it was kind of trauma exposure for her. It’s something she wanted to do. So we bought TVs as a church and we put them at the front of the worship space, moved all the speakers around with the praise team, like jacked up the whole stage so that her son could sit right in front of the stage during the service and watch the lyrics roll up the screen. Right. And which meant people couldn’t walk that way. Like, you know, it’s a, yeah. Inclusion requires disruption and disruption is complex. Yes. Yes. So, you know, and it forms you and that’s a beautiful thing. That’s amazing. Um, to ask you a million questions, uh, A, because I think things you have to say are so good and emblematic of what this program is about, but also it’s just, there’s a fountain of pastoral wisdom here. And I think that’s the connection too, is if you’re a pastor, you’re like, what does contextual theology have to do with what happens in my church? Like this really academic thing, this is where- Oh yeah. Yeah, right. Absolutely. And so I would really encourage people to see that and to see that connection. That’s good. My favorite last question- As always, what are you reading right now? That’s okay. He’s reading all the books that are on a syllabus that no one has seen. It’s actually almost not untrue. Right now, I am reading two books at the same time. I’ll pop out of the screen. Classic. I know, right? So needful. It’s a book by Pamela Cooper White called The Psychology of Christian Nationalism, Why People Are Drawn In and How to Talk Across the Divide. And then another book I’m reading kind of for the second time, because I do that from time to time, is a beautiful book called The Spirit and the Common Good by Daniela C. Augustine. And yeah, they’re two completely different books. So I usually try to read something that’s trauma studies, psychology studies, and then something theological. When I want to read to cleanse my palate of deep, like the wheel that’s always turning, I read, and this is so random, I read biographies written by Hollywood actors. You know, if I’ve learned anything, it’s that there’s always like a weird niche interest for contextual theology students. Okay, there we go. The last episode was Western Romances. Oh, nice. We are reading books about birds. Yeah, that’s fantastic. Yeah, I just finished Al Pacino’s biography. And then for me, here’s the problem for me. I don’t sleep sometimes very well. So what I’ll do is I’ll watch all the films of the person I just read for the millionth time sometimes. So it leads to all kinds of unhealthy behaviors. Best Hollywood biography you’ve ever read? Oh, yo, that’s a great question. Okay, it’s going to sound random as the day is long, but believe it or not, believe it or not, Matthew McConaughey’s biography was so entertaining and just like, it was just engaging and it was just fun. It was a fun read. Okay, follow-up question. Best Matthew McConaughey movie? Bro, that ain’t fair. There’s one right answer. Well, I’m going to be wrong because I’m a bit of a Matthew McConaughey fanboy. Denzel, Tom Hanks, and Matthew McConaughey, I’m all in on their films if you want to look at just that spectrum of actors. I don’t know. I can’t say because he’s done some prolific – to me, he’s done some artful films and then he’s just done some crazy stuff. But I don’t even know. But what would you say is the right answer? I think it’s Bernie. Yo, yeah. Okay. I could be down with that. Which is, by the way, a great contextual piece about the state of Texas. That’s right. That’s fair. Go ahead. I was just going to say, this is like bonus track material here on how to use pop culture as contextual theology, which is excellent, guys. Keep going. Okay. And so here’s the last thing I’ll say. The reason why I was drawn to these actor biographies is because I was drawn to the roles that they would play. And I would want to know what’s behind the roles. And so even still, even though it was like palate cleansing, I was just really interested as what was driving the artist to choose the genres that they did. And when you read their stories, every single one of them, Have traumagenic experiences that lead them to certain places of created expression. So yeah, it would be a contextual theology nerd out thing. Your curiosity takes over everywhere you go, Fred. It’s a dangerous thing, bro. It’s a beautiful thing. It’s so fun. Oh man, this has been so good. I’m so glad that we got you on the podcast. We’ll have to do this again. Thanks, guys. Absolutely. Really appreciate you, brother. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate you, brother. Thank you guys very much. Thanks so much, Brad. Thanks for listening, everyone. We’ll catch you next time. PodcastTranscriptCover Podcast Transcript Over This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

2. 

   16 Sept 2026

   Season 02, Episode 02 - Christian Williams

   For Context: Season 02 Episode 01 🎙️ Episode Overview In this episode of For Context, hosts Gino Curcuruto and Luke Stehr sit down with Christian Williams, a Doctor of Ministry (D.Min) student in Northern Seminary's Contextual Theology program. Christian shares her personal journey through a recent major health crisis, her ministry work in Arkansas, and her experience as a black woman navigating a predominantly white evangelical context. She also dives into her dissertation topic on gender, power, and identity, and teases her upcoming podcast project with Northern Seminary. Key Discussion Points * Health Crisis & Personal Life: * Christian opens up about experiencing a sudden, severe health issue (her colon stopped functioning), which led to a major surgery in February and delayed the start of her dissertation. She lightheartedly attributes the timing to a meal of sweet potato pancakes at a local Fayetteville spot. * Contextual Theology & Academic Journey: * Came to Northern Seminary after noticing several women from Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS) moving to the program. * Highlighted key formative courses and professors: * Dr. Julian Brown (Hermeneutics): Helped form her paper applying liberation theology and Anabaptist ecclesiology to gender oppression (using Genesis 38 and Tamar as a case study). * Dr. Jonathan Tran: Influenced her understanding of racial capitalism and its impact on ministry and theology. * Navigating Cultural & Social Dynamics in Fayetteville, AR: * Describes Fayetteville as an unusual crossroads: a Southern, segregated, highly outdoorsy college town with strong cultural Christianity. * Addresses the unique experience of being an “insider/outsider”—being one of the few Black staff members in a PCA church while feeling deeply valued, called to, and accepted by her local community. * Emphasizes the importance of using discernment to counter narratives like the “secular boogeyman” in favor of true Christian resilience. * Communion, Disability, and Inclusive Theology: * Shares a profound core memory serving communion to a young girl with severe disabilities through her church’s partnership with 99 Balloons. This experience fundamentally shaped her theology of ability and human dignity. * Dissertation Preview: * Topic: Investigating how a church’s stated theology of women shapes female identity, self-constructs, and participation in the mission of God (Missio Dei). * Theoretical Framework: Utilizing French feminist philosophy (Simone de Beauvoir) and the work of Korean-Canadian theologian Dr. Grace Jisun Kim. * Methodology: Conducting ethnographic research including surveys and interviews with both men and women across lay leadership and church staff. * Upcoming Projects: * Co-hosting a new podcast called Seminary Folk alongside Shane Blackshear, featuring interviews with Northern Seminary faculty (including an upcoming episode with Nijay Gupta on New Testament theology and resistance to empire). Resources & Books Mentioned * Resources & Books Mentioned * Academic & Theological Context: Northern Seminary: D.Min in Contextual Theology (Contact Gino Curcuruto at gcurcuruto@seminary.edu for information on the June 2027 cohort). * Works by Dr. Jonathan Tran (Racial Capitalism). * Works by Dr. Grace Ji Sun Kim (Visibility and Asian/Asian-American Contextual Theology). * The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir. * Personal Reading List (Christian Williams): * Books on Place Theology / Sacred Spaces. * Western Romance novels by Elsie Silver. For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu/). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu/). * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu/). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu/). Transcript I’m Gino Curcuruto. I’m Luke Stare. And you’re listening to For Context, a podcast about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry and contextual theology. For Context is brought to you by Northern Seminary. For over 113 years, Northern Seminary has been training women and men for leadership in the church. If you want to check out all of the academic offerings Northern Seminary has, including a doctoral ministry cohort in contextual theology, please go to seminary.edu. A new cohort for the D-Min in Contextual Theology is getting started in June of 2027. If you’re interested or would like more information on how to come study with Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Jonathan Tran, Dr. Cindy Westfall and others, Please reach out to me directly at gcurcuruto at seminary.edu. That’s G-C-U-R-C-U-R again, U-T-O at seminary.edu. And I’ll give you the information we can chat. Welcome to another episode of For Context. Gino and I are here today and we’ve got Christian Williams with us. Christian is in the cohort above us, so has just wrapped up a dissertation. So we’re going to, or is wrapping up her dissertation. I don’t know which one it is. She’s making a face at me. I’m just starting. I’m just starting. She’s just starting. She’s finished all of her seminars and is now approved to start writing, I believe. Okay. That’s exciting. Yeah. Well, Welcome. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, especially for me? Yes. So, last name Williams. Maybe the most important thing about me. No, I’m just joking. My dad would like that I said that. He’s very concerned about his legacy. Okay. So, I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas. I’m an Arkansas native, actually. I grew up in Little Rock, which is three hours south. But growing up, there was nothing up here except Razorback football. And so I didn’t spend time up here. And so I’ve been here for six years. Like I’m not outdoorsy. Fayetteville is known for being like outdoorsy. There’s trails, there’s mountains. I’m allergic to everything outside. So like literally, like both mentally, but also physically. And so I’d actually not super outdoorsy. So I’ve been here six years. I work for my church. I serve on staff as director of discipleship at Christ Community Church, which is in the PCA, which is a whole nother conversation if somebody wants to talk to me about that. And I just went to my first house this past summer and I have had, the reason why I’m just now starting my dissertation is because last summer I experienced a health crisis and it’s still like on the tail ends of that. And so I’m just taking things slowly, painting everything in my house pink as I can, adding a disco ball here and there. Nice. That’s wonderful. Wait, so finish the coursework. I was going to start writing Got a House and a Health Crisis. Do those correspond? I mean, I don’t want to pry into your business. No, no. So what happened was... What happened was, my friend Emily, shout out to my friend Emily. Well, I can’t say that they’re responsible for this. So one day, me and my friend Emily went to breakfast because I also have a tattoo of pancakes, and so breakfast is like my favorite thing. Pancakes are the best. See, you know where I’m going with this. So I went out to breakfast with my friend Emily, and we had the exact same meal at this restaurant that I really love called the Farmer’s Table. This is not the Farmer’s Table of the fall, so if anybody... Okay, good. The next day, I woke up and was like, I do not feel great. I don’t know what happened. Thought I might have contracted food poisoning. Texted Emily. Was like, hey, are you good? And she was like, I’m fine. I don’t know what’s going on. And I was like, great. So it’s just me. Long story short, my colon stopped working. So in February, I had to have it removed. Yeah. It just woke up one day and was like, we’re out. Quentin time. Yeah, literally, just quit. Okay, but how were those pancakes? They were so good. In fact, I just had some the other day. I was like, I haven’t been here in like a year. And those sweet potato pancakes are fire. Oh, that’s great. Yes, people in Fayetteville know how to eat. I was like, these are my favorite pancakes, and I love pancakes. That’s amazing. I’m glad that you got to have them again, and... It was much, much better the next time, right? Maybe before we probably are violating HIPAA laws soon, we should move to talking about contextual theology. I’m curious, Christian, if you would, as you look back on your time in the coursework, I mean, I know you’re going to work on the dissertation and I hope we can talk about that, but I’m curious if there was a class or an experience in the class that stands out to you as memorable? Whether it was positive, negative, I’m leaving it wide open for you. Wide open. Well, first I’ll say that I stumbled across the Contextual Theology program. It basically started with some women that I knew who were connected to my previous seminary experience at DTS, Dallas Theological Seminary, who were all at Northern. And I was like, why? Why is everybody? Why are they all over there? What’s going on? And I... Went to the internet to sleuth a little bit and found the Contextual Theology Program and was very intrigued by that. Mainly because I knew I wanted to do something in that vein, but everything was either like missions or like intercultural studies. And I didn’t want to do either of those specifically. And so the Contextual Theology Program was really what exactly what I was looking for. And it was kind of like, I either do this or I don’t do anything at that stage in my life. And so I was really excited about my program. The thing that stood out to me after my first course, honestly, was my master’s was very intense and broad as they are. And so my first course, I was like, this is actually feels easier. And I remember being like, I’m going to be okay. I’m going to be okay. Because I went in thinking, do I actually have time for this? I work full time. I try to have a life. I got to fly back here twice a year. I was like, am I actually going to be able to pull this off? And I remember being like, oh, okay, no. I’m going to be fine. It’s going to be hard. I’ll balance my time, but it’ll be fine. And so that was kind of it. In terms of coursework, Dr. Julian Brown was our... Taught our Bible course. It’s not Bible, but it’s hermeneutics. And I’m a Bible girl. I love scripture. I love teaching scripture. I love being in scripture. I love also like low-key Jedi mind tricking some people. I am the queen of like, I did not grow up in white evangelicalism. And so people say things like when I’m teaching Bible and my face is like, like, I’ve never heard this. I’m proud. And so I am always like, yeah, I don’t think that’s right. And here’s why. And so I love, I guess, wrecking people’s worlds a little bit when it comes to scripture. I have to tell you that I have seen that face a couple of times as I sat in on classes with Jonathan Tran. Yeah, that was a good time. Yeah, no, good times. I love that face. I’m always like... So, yeah, Dr. Brown was my favorite. And I wrote a paper for her class that’s going to end up being a chapter of my dissertation. So that’s probably the thing that kind of stuck with me. Jonathan Tran, that was also my favorite class because he’s one of those people who were like, Who are so smart that borderline they could be an evil genius if given the opportunity. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. Yes. And his work on racial capitalism, I remember being like, yes, this is a thing that I’ve been talking about but didn’t know what I was talking about and didn’t really have the words to talk about it. Yes. And that’s been pretty formational for me. Yes. The first time... The first time that I met Dr. Tran, he was speaking at Villanova University near me in Philly, and I had read his book, and it was transformational for me. In many ways, I just felt like this is giving me a path of how to enter into things that I haven’t known how to do. And so we went around in this circle, this highly academic setting to say, like, what’s your opinion of the book? And I think what I said, what I was able to say was, like, I think your book just saved my life. And it was it was it was like probably the weirdest thing to say in that setting, but it was the most truthful thing I had access to. And so, yeah, I’m with you. We we for for that class, we just had Dr. Cindy Westfall. Luke and I just because I think Dr. Brown retired. So. Yeah, I’m really curious about what that class was like for you, because it sounds like it’s right up your alley. Did you guys do work on different social theories and things like that within the different contexts? Do you remember back to that? What was your paper on? What did you write your paper on? So my paper was on a hermeneutic of... I’m thinking of the title. I can’t think of the title. My paper was basically... On a harmony with liberation as it applies to gender oppression and really kind of taking these two things of like what is expanding the idea of sexism and misogyny to social constructs of gender enable this kind of violent oppression that happens within our social circles. And so reading scripture in line of God is at work to rescue women and men from these social constructs that are actually oppressive. And so I looked at the, I used Genesis 38, Tamar as my case study to apply that. And kind of making the statement that God was using subversive means to rescue Tamar and essentially Judah also from these oppressive constructs of gender. And so that was my first time applying some liberation theology and a little bit of Anabaptist ecclesiology to some hermeneutics. Because like I said, my church is in the PCA. I’m in the PCA, which is not Anabaptist and is not known for being liberating. Sorry, I’m probably not supposed to laugh at that. Yeah, yeah. I love my church. I love my church. I love Christ community. Shout out Dave, my pastor. Shout out Andrew, the best boss ever. It’s just a very Fayetteville topic. Yes, yes, for sure. And so I remember just sitting with that. And I’ve always loved that story. And I’ve always felt like there’s something going on outside of the way other people have taught about it. Or thought about it or did all the things. And so I remember being like, I think there’s something at work here in terms of what it means to be in the context of the centrality of who God is and how he moves and acts in his mission in the world and his move to rescue us and what does that look like. And so very much being tied to some aspects of liberation theology for sure. That’s great. I love that. Gino, would you happen to have ever written anything on liberation theology and Anabaptist hermeneutics? Yeah, I kind of just did a paper on that. But most of the work constructing like a Neo-Anabaptist hermeneutic. I think I saw this. I saw this on the social somewhere. Yeah. And I’ve written in the past on the work of black liberation theology as a corrective. I used kind of the metaphor because the Anabaptists have this Anabaptist vision, which was a lecture that kind of congeals the three main ideas of Anabaptism. What is Anabaptism? So they call it the Anabaptist vision. And then I said that James Cone and Howard Thurman offer a corrective lens for the Anabaptist vision. So most of my paper that I had to do for the class was constructing an Anabaptist hermeneutic because that took a lot of work to go through the history. And so unfortunately, word count got in the way of me actually doing the liberative theology that I needed to learn. It’s worse than a word count. Word count is my worst enemy. I’m like, I have things to say. Amen. I have things to say. Amen. We usually have like an after the paper paper or something. I’ve started creating these documents that are like all the cutting room floor kind of a thing. Yes. I think I also had to cut like Yeah. Sometimes it hurts my soul, but then I think to myself, you know what? Part of my job is to teach theology and Bible with my church. So Christ’s community becomes my guinea pigs for a lot of stuff. And I tell them that all the time. If I’m teaching a seminar, I’ll be like, you know what, guys? Congratulations. You are my test subject for this work. You’re getting the 5,637 word count paper of that 5,000 paper. I taught a class on non-Western church history for my church, and I am not a historian, right? So I have to do all this thing, all this background research, but I’m also super nerdy, and so I’m always trying to figure out, like, how can I do this? So I taught this six-week class, and we got to American, like, Black Church American History, and I remember being like, okay, guys, I have an hour, so... Some of y’all, because my church is predominantly white, it’s majority white, and so I’m like, some of y’all are going to get really upset when I say something because you’re going to feel really guilty about racism, and I don’t have time. We have to move past it. We’ve got things we’ve got to learn. We’ve got to hold your feelings. We can talk about that later. So they get all the things I have to cut for a word count. That’s the stuff they get. Hold your feelings is a great line. So good. Oh, my gosh. So, you know, you’re in a... Very particular context. I think most people think Arkansas. And if they’re not familiar with Fayetteville, it’s really like it’s not adding up. No, you can explain it. Yeah. As a contextual theologian, can you unpack your social context of Fayetteville, Arkansas for us? Because it is the weirdest crossroads of American culture that I think no one sees coming. So here’s a couple of things. This will give you context. So it’s also really funny, and I haven’t had Tom talk to anyone about this yet. So we have a staff Slack, and I am the person on staff who has 5 million whiteboards, and one of my whiteboards went missing. And so someone, I found it, it was broken. And so I put in the Slack, whoever broke my whiteboard, I hope your edges fall out. And the staff responded with question marks because we had a cross-cultural moment. We were ships passing in the night. And I was like, I can’t even explain to you what it means for me to say that I hope your edges fall out. You just don’t have the culture of know-how for what this means. And so I was basically low-key spitting a curse upon my enemies, whoever broke my whiteboard. But I say that to say, north towards Arkansas, Can feel very Midwestern, like a Midwestern college town because University of Arkansas is here. So it can, it can have these Midwestern college town vibes, but it is still very much Southern. And what I mean by that is that the economy is Southern, the culture and class politics, Southern, um, Northwest Arkansas is very segregated and it has like this weird crux of like you could be at the new Walmart separate campus in Bentonville and then be on a farm two seconds later by just crossing the street. So it has these very interesting dynamics around race dynamics. Economics class, the most affluent part of the state. And then you have also this weird of like very outdoorsy where there’s mountain biking and trails and people like come here to do, I don’t know, whatever it is that white people do when they go outside. Who aren’t allergic to everything. Who aren’t allergic to everything. Yeah, I’m like, I don’t do that. I don’t do that. And so it is this... And also still very much cultural Christianity, which is, it’s very much this Southern Christendom thing. I can walk into a coffee shop at any, it’s kind of like my pet peeves when people are, when people in my area talk about like this secularized boogeyman who’s out to get all the Christians. And I’m like, if you walk into any coffee shop, any time of the day, any day of the week in Fayetteville, Arkansas, somebody is there talking about Jesus and somebody there has a Bible. No, no one’s coming to get us. And so it is this weird high-podge. I oftentimes go to places in Fayetteville and I’m the only non-white person in the whole place. Well, my parents come up to visit me from Little Rock, which is very rare. We’ll sit in a restaurant and my mom will be like, we’re the only black people in this restaurant. I’m like, yeah, that’s pretty common. My parents have been to my church, my white PCA church, one time in the six years that I’ve lived here. And that was enough. That was enough for them. Um, so I oftentimes feel very othered in my context. Um, but then I also feel a radical sense of acceptance by the people in my community, which is not true for everybody in my situation. I think, I think I can, I’ve been in places where I have been the smart, um, engaged token minority. And I think I can, I think I can truly say that that’s not my experience. Um, In Christ community. Um, I feel really valued. I feel really blessed and privileged to speak into the people that I speak with. I mean, it’s not, there is, there are no, there are very few, if not any, PCH churches where I can stand on a stage and say like, you can vote for a pro-choice candidate and still be a Christian. Like, there’s very few places where I can say that. And the fact that I get to say that and I keep my job and I get to do whatever I want, essentially, within a thousand reasons. Yeah. Um, Sometimes feels like a city on a hill a little bit in the sense of like, this is kind of what things can look like when you can be united across difference, if that makes sense. Yeah. Wow. What a gift. Yeah. I truly, I truly treasure it for sure. There’s so many things that that brings up to me that I’d love to ask you about. One of them is I think I hear you saying that Fayetteville might not be your place that you would choose if it weren’t for this church, not just because it’s a job, but because that’s the community that you have belonging in so that you can enter that context that you mentioned earlier. That has all these things. I mean, like just the fact that so many people do things outside and you don’t. I don’t know. Does that make you an insider or an outsider? So that is 100% correct. And yes, if I did not feel a deep conviction in my soul that this is where I’m supposed to be, this is not where I would be at all. I sometimes wrestle with if I had kids, what that would look like. I don’t have kids, but if I did, there are things about living in Northwest Arkansas as a person of color that I would be really concerned about. And yet, I still feel very called and part of this community. And even to certain things, like for instance, my women’s leadership team, I remember this a couple years ago, they were like, we should have a women’s hiking event. And I was like, no. We’re not doing that. I don’t want to do that. Cause I don’t want to, I have to be there and I don’t want to hike. I don’t want to go outside. I have asthma and I’m allergic to things that sting. Like I don’t want to be out there. Um, and so I remember their faces where they were just kind of like, she doesn’t want to hike. No, I don’t want to go hiking. That’s not fun to me. Um, and so, yes, I definitely experienced this insider outsider dynamic and my boss, shout out to Andrew Brule, one of the most pastoral kind men that I know. He recognizes that and sometimes he has to remind me of not to always, because he’ll remind me, he’ll say like, hey, you might be a unicorn, but lean into that and not always think of yourself as outside of something. And so he kind of calls me back to faithfulness in that way because I can very much be like, I don’t fit in and there’s nobody like me and there’s nobody with my job. For four states surrounding me, there’s nobody to talk to. And he’ll be like, all that may be true, but you’re still part of something. And so I’m very grateful for that. That’s really beautiful. It is. How do you feel like being a part of this program has changed the way you practice as a minister, as a person of faith? Yeah. As just someone who lives in a place that’s really different than I think you would have envisioned for yourself. Yeah. Well, one, I think it’s made me grow deeper in my faith with Jesus. And I don’t mean that like in a trivial sense. I mean that in the sense of like, I have become more and more convinced that, that one, well, this is one thing that I tell my church. I’m like, forget the idea that you are an autonomous individual who formed herself. Humans don’t pop up out of the snow like grass. That’s not how it happens. You’re formed by something. And that’s become a more deeper and true conviction. The more I’ve been, the longer I’ve been in this program and have studied. And now I have like language and like resources and data and people who are a lot smarter than me and older than me to back that up. But then also in the sense, I’m like, if that’s true. Then it’s not by, this feels, this is very Presbyterian. It is by God’s providence that I am where I am and that I was formed in a context so antithetical to the context that I live and work in now. And so none of that is by accident. It’s all by God’s design. It’s part of, it is part of the church as itself being like the center by which God moves out into the world. And so if that’s true and I’m part of that, Then I think I have a responsibility to be wise, to be a person who learns, to become a person who is a student of their context. So properly to be able to discern what does it mean for God to take a person like me who was formed in the place that I was formed and dropped into this place. I’m like, that has to mean something. So I need to be a student of the context that I came from and the context that I’m in now and to properly discern what God is up to. So I myself can participate in it, but then also I can shepherd and disciple people into recognizing God’s invitation and how they are participating in that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m wondering how this education and praxis, not just book learning, but your real experience, is helping you to discern the things that you were shaped and formed in in another place are of benefit in this new place, maybe expressed differently or vice versa. What are the things that you want to hold on to? So as you were talking earlier, I’m sorry, I’m saying too much, but this example of you going into a coffee shop and hearing everyone in this context saying, you know, the secular boogeyman is coming out to get us. And you’re like, Jesus is being talked about by everyone in these coffee shops or at least enough people in every con. Maybe your perspective, maybe it takes an outsider to disrupt that. And maybe that’s something that you’ve experienced differently in your background. And that’s a good thing that you hold on to. You just don’t you don’t just take what people say. Here’s the context. The secular boogeyman is coming to get us. You use discernment and your own like field of observation. Yeah. I mean, that’s one of the things I’m very grateful for growing up in a black church tradition, because in a black church tradition, you have like this aspect of like, no, there is actually a real enemy. Like there’s one there’s like the spiritual one or whatever. There’s Satan. But then there’s also like, you know, the fact that People used to lynch black people on Sundays and put it on a postcard. Like there’s real oppression and suffering that have been and that experience and that form the black church. And so it’s kind of like this. Well, every time somebody votes against you, does it mean that they’re out to get you? Because like I have a whole church tradition who was voted against all the time and still and yet persisted and survived and thrived and flourished. And so. Those type of experience like coming in or even coming in and saying, hey, this isn’t suffering. This is just discomfort or like this isn’t suffering. It’s just that like you need to build a capacity for resilience. Like, yes. And so there are things that are coming that come from my church, from my church tradition that I grew up in and the family that shaped me in the neighborhood, all that kind of stuff that plays into the way that I see the world that in fact helps. And the way that I teach scripture and the way that I interact with people and the way that I engage people. But then also, it’s like one of the things that my church does, well, I think does really well and continues to do well and continues to grow in is trying to think about how to be inclusive in terms of ability. And so I will never forget this. And it is now a core memory for me. And as I’ve gone through my health challenges over the past year, year and a half, it’s like still stay with me. So My church has this, partners with this organization called 99 Balloons, and it’s basically born out of one of our elders, him and his wife. They lost their son after 99 days of him being alive. And so they started this organization called 99 Balloons to provide respite care for families with disability. And so this is a stream of our church. It’s not something that I was exposed to growing up. And my boss, his daughter, Paulina, lives with severe disabilities. And there was one day Ashley, his wife, was bringing Paulina up in her wheelchair to receive communion. And I was placing the elements in her hand. And I said to her, Paulina, this is the body of Christ broken for you. And when I put it in her hand, what I realized, I was like, Paulina knows that truth in a way that I will never know. And she can’t. And she doesn’t express it in a way that I would typically express it. But I know deep in my soul as I’m handing this to her that she knows what it means for Christ’s body to be broken for her. And that is not something I would have had I not been part of this community. And so I get to participate in that and I get to see that and I get to have these moments of being like, there are people who experience Jesus in a way that I can’t. And that’s good and it’s good for me. And so I’ve experienced both. And I’ve experienced the ability to come into a space and be like, hey, let’s open our minds, open our eyes. Let’s listen. Let’s imagine a new future. Let’s discern together. But then I’ve also been able to allow people to do that for me. I mean, like one of the things that has happened with that is like I’ve had to reconcile in terms of my my theology of ability with people growing up. This idea of being like, oh, well, in the eschatom and everything is fixed, this person is going to be fixed. And now being like, well, there’s nothing wrong with them. That’s not it. And so that’s been super rich and fulfilling for me. That’s amazing. That is amazing. Do you want to talk about your dissertation that you are picking off? What was the process of kind of Getting going, choosing a topic, what are you looking forward to kind of discovering in the process? Yeah, so I decided to work smarter, not harder. And I tried to basically keep a central theme in all of my coursework. You are a genius. Everyone listening, listen up very clearly. Because if you’re me, there are times where you’re like, I want to talk about this and I want to talk about that. And then at the end of the day, you’re like, I do look, you have to have something at the end of this project. And so maybe I should keep some sort of central theme. And so my first paper was on power dynamics and preaching. And I remember being like, I think this is something that I like want to like Take and just keep going into terms and understanding power in context and how power shapes context and how context shapes power, essentially. And then my paper started getting built along those thoughts specifically as it relates to women and how women are formed. And so my dissertation is on how my church’s State of Theology of Women shapes women for mission and understanding how women form their sense of self, so their identity constructs, and how that in turn shapes the way they understand what it means to participate in the mission of God in the world. So that’s my dissertation. It’s exciting. You’re going to start with interviews. What’s your plan there? Can we look under the hood a little bit? Yeah, we can look under the hood. First stage was identifying what my cultural framework was going to be. I really gravitated towards Simone de Beauvoir and some French feminist philosophy there and the idea of subjectivity and this idea that... In a Western mindset, women is really, it’s just the other of man. And so being like, I think that’s wrong, but this is the way it kind of happens. And so that’s kind of the cultural framework that I was drawn to. And then I took the work of Dr. Grace Jisun Kim, who is a Korean-Canadian theologian and pastor who works on visibility specifically as it relates to the Asian culture. Asian American, Asian Canadian female experience. And this idea of like foreigner invisibility and all that kind of stuff. And so I took those things and kind of nailed that down. And Dr. Fitch was like, that sounds good. Sometimes these things happen where you like take an idea and you realize I actually have to read all this stuff and like know what it says. And like, this is hard. Yes, it’s a lot of work. That’s a lot of work. Yeah, so once I got all that nailed down and explained what I was planning to do and my proposal got approved, which my writing the proposal was was simultaneously hard and also like not that hard, mainly for me because so much time it passed because I was dealing with health stuff and was not capable of doing much of anything. And so then when I finally got around to writing it, there was a lot of stuff that I planned to say and forgot what I was going to say. But then I was like, oh, well, lucky for me, I actually wrote papers that kind of helped me figure out where I’m going. And so once I actually sat down and wrote it over a couple weeks, it was fine. But yeah, I’m starting interviews soon. And my interviews consist of lay leaders and leadership in my church. There’s some anonymous surveys that I’ll be doing. Doing an ethnographic research project at a church that you not just attend, but like work at and not just work at, but are like The discipling pastor shepherd person is a whole other thing in itself because there’s, for me, there’s a lot of backhand communicating of like, hey, this isn’t related to Christ community. This isn’t related to the denomination. This is like none of that. This is strictly for my own work and research, which is kind of like, it’s a little nerve wracking, but yeah, I’m starting interviews soon. I am excited. What I anticipate is Someone asked me this, like, what do you anticipate to hear? I was like, the thing I most anticipate to hear is, I’ve never thought about this before. Yeah. That is a thing that I expect to hear repeated most of the time. I looked at some of my interview questions just yesterday as I’m preparing to start interviews in two weeks and was like, I think, like, one of my questions is, what’s your first understanding of gender? And I’m already being like, I need to have Kleenex for people. I need to have some follow-up times for people because I’m going to have to care for people in some pastoral capacity after this. What does that look like? I’m sorry. Are you specifically interviewing women? I’m interviewing women and men. Okay. Yeah, I think that you’re right with what you’re expecting. Yeah, bring the Kleenex. Yeah. That’s going to be fascinating. I want to read it. We will have you back on the podcast to debrief. Debrief. Yeah. I’m really excited to see what stories come out of my interviews. I’m really excited to hear how people think about their gender and how it’s been formed. I’m even more excited to see what role, if any, their understanding of who God is has shaped their understanding of gender. Um, so, so yeah, that’ll, that’ll, I’m really excited. I am nervous. Am I going to lie and pretend that I’m not nervous? Um, because I do work for my church. I, the PCA is not So I do have some measure of nerves, but I am excited and I really do think that my project will benefit who my church is as we learn more into who we’re supposed to be and what it means to be. We have this thing that we say that we’re in the city for the city. And so I’m excited to see how my project can actually participate in nailing down what do we mean when we say that. Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. That’s great. Well, I know we’re kind of coming up to the end of our time, but I do, like I said to you right before we started recording, there is now gossip. It’s not a rumor, but there’s gossip spreading that you will be starting coming. Co-hosting a podcast. I don’t know how much you know about that or can share, but could you just tease all of our five listeners? Yeah, sure. And my mom. There are 20 of them. Oh, and your mom. And your mom. My mom is my biggest cheerleader. My mom, she’ll be like, I don’t know what you were talking about. It was too smart for me, but I listened. So your mom’s going to listen to this episode, which doubles the number of people listening. Shout out Daphne. So I will be co-hosting a podcast with Shane Blackshear. It’s called Seminary Folk. We’re going to be interviewing current faculty at Northern and some adjunct faculty. In fact, we’re recording an episode tomorrow with Nije about... New Testament means theology and resistance against empire. Whoa, you heard it here first, folks. We’re breaking all the stories on this podcast. Breaking news. That’s going to be so good. Yes. I hope so. Oh, I think it’s going to be great. It’s going to be great. Man. Okay. I always end with one question. I think you’ve already kind of answered it. What are you reading these days? Okay. So for fun or for work? Yes. All of the above. Yes. Okay. I’m teaching a Bible study on Leviticus starting in two weeks. So I’m reading this book on place theology because I have this whole thing about how all the scriptures about how God wants to lift his people in a real place. So I’m reading a book on that. It’s called Sacred Spaces? Something like that. I’m reading The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir for my dissertation. And I’m really into Western romance. So as I tell my friends, I like my cowboys. Fictional, not real, because I live in Arkansas and I’m kind of afraid that... Of white cowboys. Well, they might make you go outside. And you probably know this. The majority, like maybe not the majority, but a large portion of cowboys on the frontier were actually black men. Yes, I do know. Because it was the only job available to them. I do know. And so I do have some BIPOC Western romances that are on my shelf right now. But I’m currently rereading this series that’s going to be made by Amazon because TV has discovered that romance is the best-selling genre, apparently. And they want to capitalize on this because capitalism. And who does it like a shirtless man on a horse? You know what I’m saying? Gino. Yeah, I got to say that’s not my thing, but that’s all right. I agree. Yeah, so I’m currently reading A Western Romance by Elsie Silver as well. Okay. You know, it’s good to be varied in your tastes. How do you think Simone de Beauvoir would read Western romances? She’d probably be like, why are you reading this? This is everything that’s wrong. Well, as long as that’s clear, we can end this podcast. Yeah. We contain multitudes. Oh, man. Okay, we’re going to have to have you back. I think we can have a lot of fun. For sure. So, good luck with the dissertation. It sounds like it’s going to be really good. And good luck with the new podcast. Yeah, thank you. Thanks guys for having me. Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah, thanks for being here. Okay. Peace. Bye. Podcast Transcript Over This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

3. 

   2 Sept 2026

   Season 02, Episode 01 - Northern’s Big Announcement

   For Context: Season 02 Episode 01 🎙️ Episode Overview Episode Overview In this episode of For Context, hosts Gino Curcuruto and Luke Stehr discuss Northern Seminary’s move back into a local church context after years of operating in office park spaces (see the video announcement (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwe8SGIZD8o)). Reflecting as current D.Min students and contextual theologians, they explore the theological and practical implications of physical location, community presence, and how seminaries inhabit their surrounding environments. Key Discussion Points * Northern Seminary’s Relocation: Gino and Luke share their thoughts on the seminary moving back into a church setting, critiquing the trend of educational institutions residing in isolated office complex parks. * The Importance of Local Context: They discuss how concrete, gray office complexes can detach students and faculty from the communities and churches they aim to serve. * Memories & Nostalgia: The hosts share lighthearted memories of their time around the former campus setting, including local food spots like Tacochella and the stark contrast of Chicago winter architecture. Featured Speakers * Gino Curcuruto: Program Advisor for the Contextual Ministry D.Min program at Northern Seminary. * Luke Stehr: D.Min student in Contextual Theology. Resources & Links * Learn more about academic programs at Northern Seminary (https://seminary.edu/). * Subscribe for updates on the For Context Newsletter (https://www.google.com/search?q=https://forcontextpod.substack.com). Resources & Books Mentioned * Northern Seminary (http://seminary.edu/): Learn more about the D.Min in Contextual Theology (email Gino at gcurcuruto@seminary.edu (mailto:gcurcuruto@seminary.edu) for info). * For Context Newsletter (https://www.google.com/search?q=http://forcontextpod.substack.com): Subscribe for more context behind the news. * Constructing Local Theologies, Robert Screiter. * Models of Contextual Theology, Stephen Bevans. For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu/). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu/). * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu/). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu/). Transcript I’m Gino Curcuruto. I’m Luke Stare. And you’re listening to For Context, a podcast about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry and contextual theology. For Context is brought to you by Northern Seminary. For over 113 years, Northern Seminary has been training women and men for leadership in the church. If you want to check out all of the academic offerings Northern Seminary has, including a doctoral ministry cohort in contextual theology, please go to seminary.edu. A new cohort for the D-Min in Contextual Theology is getting started in June of 2027. If you’re interested or would like more information on how to come study with Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Jonathan Tran, Dr. Cindy Westfall and others, Please reach out to me directly at gcurcuruto at seminary.edu. That’s G-C-U-R-C-U-R again, U-T-O at seminary.edu. And I’ll give you the information we can chat. Hey, friends, welcome to season two of For Context. This is episode one, and we’re checking back in. Luke is here with me. Yeah, it’s everybody’s second favorite contextual theology podcast. Yeah. Are there other ones? I don’t know. I can promise that we are literally one of the best contextual theology podcasts around. That’s absolutely true. That’s not even hubris speaking. It’s not. It’s a fact. Luke, by the time this episode goes out, actually today, right before we started recording, Northern made kind of a, I think, a big announcement. And I would love as contextual theologians and students in the program to kind of name what that announcement is. And then let’s chat about why we think that’s a good or bad thing and how that might affect students. Okay, well, I should have reread the announcement before I talked about it. But basically, Northern is moving out of their Lyle, Illinois campus, which, as a non-Chicagoan, is not Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. And they are moving from Lyle, Illinois in the office park where they had been to a church in Oak Park, Illinois, which is also still apparently not Chicago somehow. It’s much closer, but it isn’t. Yeah, still Western suburbs, right? Yeah. I live in Dallas-Fort Worth, where we just have accepted that we’re in Megalopolis, Chicago. Get on board! It’s a sprawl. It’s a large sprawl down there, right? It’s a large sprawl in Chicago, too. Let’s be clear. It is. But it’s a super exciting move, A, for a few reasons. First and foremost, it gets the seminary back inside the church. Yes. Which is such a good thing in this day and age. Yeah. I would love to pick your brain on that, but why does that space matter? Yeah, well, I mean, that’s one of the first things that I thought about. We’ll post the link to the announcement in the show notes so people can see it if they haven’t already. But the connection historically, I don’t have it memorized, but I do know that the church that eventually will be housing the home of Northern Seminary is... Gino, what kind of church is that? That would be an American Baptist. You want me just to say Baptist? Is that what you want me to say? I do. Gino likes to rag on Baptists, but he literally, most of his intellectual underpinnings that he cites are Baptists. Listen, I do this with everything. I critique because I love. That’s why. So why is this important? I mean, you made the statement, and I think it’s really worth talking about, is moving the seminary into the church is a really good idea. It seems like many, many seminaries are struggling right now. And there also there was some move at some point where people told seminaries or seminaries thought it’s a good idea to move outside of church buildings and into office parks. I critique because I love right that. So they get large office complexes that are so just removed from the context that the church serves in. I mean, we really, I mean, Tacochella aside, right? We could talk about that. I’m going to mourn Tacochella and its proximity to the church. Yeah, I’m from California and I approve of this place, but That aside, the office park, blah, terrible. Like, you just go to this segregated spot. Yeah, I’m not impressed by the clean lines. You know, I’m really going to miss a cold Chicago January day where the sky is gray and bleak. And you roll up to this bleak... Concrete structure with sharp angular lines where you walk up to the building and it’s gray and then there’s more gray and more gray and you walk into an empty lobby. And I feel like I’m a b***h right now. Keep going. Keep going. And you go up an elevator to a third floor because other stuff is apparently on the other floors. And you go up to the gray third floor where the wonderful Kelly Wunderlich has done everything she can to make the space as welcoming and warm as possible. Absolutely. Props to Kelly. Absolutely. And you go and you sit in a gray conference room and then you leave a gray building with a gray sky. Wow, that sounds like you should make recruiting videos for Northern Seminary. But what happened in that building was amazing. And so none of the programs are changing, which is great news. And I think this is really only going to strengthen Northern moving forward to be in contact with the church, to be in the church, and to re-kind of Kindle that relationship. I think it’s going to be a really positive environment for what is an already amazing thing to just continue to be everything that it can be for the sake of the church and the world. Well, I mean, I don’t know all the ins and outs of Oak Park, but I know that you and I will be doing a lot of walking together to find it all out. I do know that Frank Lloyd Wright’s house is there. There are a few Frank Lloyd Wright houses there. There are. Also, Ernest Hemingway’s birthplace. I saw that. We will be taking a visit there. Did you know that his mother raised him as a girl for the first two years of his life? That’s inside. No, I didn’t know that. Maybe that explains a lot of my critique of Ernest Hemingway’s birthplace. It actually really does. But we’re not here to talk about Ernest Hemingway. Dang, I just need a moment right now. That blew me away. Wow, that’s great. So, I mean, one of the things that I’m excited about is that there’s a sense of place in Oak Park that intentionally an office park surrounded by other office parks does not have. Yeah. And that will change our experience, but also our experience of the place that we’re learning. And I just think there’s something pretty important about place, the place of our learning and the places that we participate in. So that’s a huge value to me. I mean, one of the things we wanted to talk about today is just the nature of cohort-based learning, which is so key at Northern Seminary, especially in the Doctrine of Ministry of Contextual Theology. You walk through just a very good, rigorous process with the same people every time. And it’s been so good. And I can’t believe we’re actually... We’re closer to being finished than we are to starting, which is a strange thing to talk about. But I have been really thankful for the cohort-based model. It has been such a good place, not just to learn, but to have people who are sounding bored, to have relationships that carry through the entire year, not just a week in January and a week in June. So I’m really thankful for the fact that Northern organizes education this way. I think everyone we’ve interviewed has referenced the significance of their cohort for them and for their learning. So I could go on and on. Yeah, I remember a couple of... I think there’s a lot of people speaking specifically in last season about the cohort model. Bernard Tam comes to mind because I think he said that that was something that he thinks needed to be emphasized more of how the model is so important. So formative in getting the opportunity to hear from other voices, spend time together, and then actually extend these conversations beyond the classroom, which is really intentional on Northern’s part and really valuable. Also, like maybe one of the worst kept secrets is that when you stay for a week, You save money if you share an Airbnb with people. I mean, that shouldn’t be a secret, so I hope it’s not a bad secret. And then that can be awkward maybe the first time if you don’t know everyone and you end up like Luke sleeping on the couch for like the first two weeks that we stay together. It was great. It was a great couch. Yeah, lots of privacy there in the living room. But you get opportunity to – Grow together and have, like I said, extended conversations. But then also, this isn’t removed from the stuff of life. Conflict happens, life stuff happens, and people are there. And you have people that maybe you wouldn’t prioritize or choose as the people that you’d work out your conflicts with or your stuff that you’re going through. But we grow in intimacy and relationship. Through processing real life stuff as it comes. Like I know, Luke, your job maybe doesn’t end when you go to Lyle, Illinois in the past and now Oak Park, but things still happen. Our family, I mean, every time, every winter I’ve been away, something in my house has kind of blown up. We had a pipe burst, a washing machine leak. So in this January class, I’m just asking everyone to shut off the water and move out for a week. That’s what I’m going to ask at home. But those things happen if we have to navigate them from a distance. It’s good to have the support of people that are becoming like classmates, that become friends, that become like family. They do. Which is such a bonus. Such a bonus. It’s so good. I’m really thankful for all the people. And I’ve enjoyed getting to connect with people from other cohorts, too. Even this summer, I was able to connect in person with Bernard. So if you’re ever around Toronto, have Bernard take you to Kanji Queen. It was great. I bet. And a lot of mortar for you. But it was so good. And so just the truly relational aspect of this program that extends dinners together, whether that’s eating out or cooking a meal at the Airbnb, probably in January we’ll have a festival of soups where there will be soup every night. Yes, I hope so. I hope so. But, you know, we grilled out this summer and just spent hours after class talking not just about what’s going on in class or what we’re reading, but just what’s going on in life. And so there’s just so much depth that is growing and emerging in these relationships that I am so thankful for in this season of life. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s I’m not sure how Northern would share that with you. I was not told much about the cohort model other than, hey, you’re going to start with a cohort and you’re going to go through the program, particularly when I was in the master’s program, because people switched, you know, they took time off. But with this, with the doctoral cohort. We’re in it all the way through together and helping each other get through. So I hope it’s helpful to hear from us about just that bonus aspect of this learning environment. And then, I mean, you know, we’re preparing for the January class, another class with Fitch. It’s our fifth one of seven seminars, right? So as you said, we’re on the downward slope of this, at least the seminars. We’ll have a dissertation to write so that could take some time. But I’m even aware of the conversations that have happened through preparing like reading plans or talking about which books we’ve read and which ones we haven’t and giving recommendations. And that just opens up so many avenues. Avenues of learning. You can also maybe tell people to avoid books. I know someone already has read one of the books that’s really important and does not like it. I know that they’ve mentioned that in our group chat a number of times, and I thought it was a great book. So we’ll continue those conversations. That’ll be fun. But I think it’s... I think it’s nice to not only cheer each other on, but help each other prepare. And so I’m wondering, like, what maybe I’ll just kind of turn towards the specific class. Like, what are you looking forward to reading? I know you’ve got a stack of books. I got them, too. Right. Yeah. With this, I guess I should say with this particular class. It’s with Fitch. And he has us kind of reading the same stuff in the first group of readings. But then as we move through, we specialize into aspects that we’re interested in or maybe meet our context. So I’m just curious. You don’t have to give me like all the details. I don’t want to put you on the spot. But what are you looking forward to reading in there? Name a couple of books. You know, I’ve really been enjoying Constructing Local Theologies by Schreiter. It’s been a great book. Yeah. Of all the local contextual theology books we’ve read thus far, I think it’s actually been my favorite. Really? Yeah. And no offense to Stephen Bevins and Models of Contextual Theology, but I think Shredder does a just more coherent job of working through how this process actually works and how contextualization works, what it actually looks like on the ground, how you navigate that. Yeah. I think people don’t realize how indebted we are to those like really just stellar Catholic missiologists of the 1970s and 80s. Like we owe them so much. My master’s degree was in world Christianity and I didn’t read all of these books, but I read a lot of other Catholic missiology at the time. And so it’s actually been really great to kind of see the things that I’ve already read actually be referenced in Schreiter. It’s like Louis Lutz-Bittach wrote a really profound book called Church and Cultures. That’s a more like cultural anthropology take on all of this. So it’s fascinating to see kind of these things weave together. So I’m enjoying that. I’m looking forward to prophetic dialogue, which is Bevins and Schroeder. I’m looking at my list right now. One of the things we’re doing later on in the reading as we prepare is working on kind of navigating our own theology of culture. And I’m still trying to figure out what lane I’m going to end up landing in. I have... Some Neo-Anabaptist leanings, maybe not as much as Gino. But I think we both swim in those waters. But I’m actually, I’m looking forward to Catherine Tanner’s book, Theories of Culture, and kind of going through a more postmodern take. So... Do you have the syllabus in front of you that you could maybe name a couple of those just for our listeners because they don’t have it? Maybe just a few of those lanes that we could choose. I’m working on pulling it up. You can stall while I do that. Yeah, so the Schrader book, I have not read it. I’ve owned this book for seven years. I heard Fitch talk about it once. Gino hoards books, like a dragon hoards gold. Yeah, I shared some books with you recently. You did, thank you. Yeah, anyway, I don’t need to defend myself. What are we doing? This is our podcast. We can talk about whatever. Do what you want. I’m really looking forward to that book, and I haven’t started. Today’s the day I start reading for the class. I’ve read the Models of Contextual Theology book that you mentioned from Bevins. I really liked it, but I do think from just browsing through the Schrader book that he’s going to go into more depth of like how to construct, like the name says, than just naming what the models are. And I find that to be very exciting. And then the other books that I’m looking forward to, there’s a couple of Hauerwas books that I haven’t read. That shouldn’t be surprising he’s written so many books. But I don’t get a lot of Hauerwas assigned reading options in the doctoral program. So I’m kind of excited to read some of the books that are on my bookshelf and actually put them to use. So that’ll be exciting. Yeah, it’s going to be good. So kind of in the first, and this is a very Fitch term, tranche. Yeah, the tranche. So, Dr. Fitch, if you’re listening, we are still making fun of tranches. Yes. So, in the first tranche, we are – I think you have to say it that way. We are basically working through contextual theological methods. So, reading things like constructing local theology, prophetic dialogue. There is some – Reading from Christian Imagination by Jennings. So all of those things. So what does it actually look like to have a methodology of contextual theology? And then it moves into the church world distinction for contextual theological methods. So what are the different kind of approaches, branches of the church have taken to culture, to a theology of culture over the years? And so the... We kick off with a reading from Simon Chan’s Grassroots Asian Theology, which is basically like methodological questions to ask, but then the options, and this is where we start branching out, and you’re supposed to kind of read and pick a lane, so not everyone in our class will do the same thing. We’ve got... Modern Protestant liberalism, it just went away. With Tillich, so that is Paul Tillich’s Theology of Culture. So how did the Protestant liberals work through this? The liberation theology, prophetic traditions, you’ve got Cohn’s. Crossing the Lynching Tree and West’s Prophesy Deliverance. So what are the liberation approaches to culture? Christendom Church towards a Christianized culture. So that’s Oliver O’Donovan’s Desire of the Nations, Martin Luther King’s. Letter from Birmingham Jail, Multicultural Church Engagement, so Justo Gonzalez, Out of Every Tribe and Nation, Christian Theology at the Ethnic Roundtable. I’m debating that one, but we’ve talked about this. I live in one of the most diverse cities in the United States, so I’m going to dabble there. I don’t know that I’m going to land there. And then postmodern Protestantism, Catherine Tanner’s theories of culture. And then there’s the Anabaptist, Neo-Anabaptist approach. And the reading is Yoder, which I know there’s a lot of debate about whether or not we should read Yoder. So one of the things that Fitch has done in assigning this text is actually having us read women within the Anabaptist tradition who are writing about why we should still read Yoder despite the things he’s done. And I mean, just to kind of pause there, we don’t have to spend a lot of time on this, though we could, that we met as a cohort and Fitch kind of ran through, hey, I think this reading is something that I’d like to suggest. How do you feel about this in light of these things? And here are some other sources. So we got an opportunity to kind of have this discussion about a problematic theologian. Whose work, in my opinion, is very difficult to replace. And as another side note, there’s a recent Substack by Dr. Joel Green on Romans 13, and he references Yoder and has a footnote. This is super nerdy, Luke. So this is just bringing it on. He mentions that Yoder, because of his problematics, he says that Yoder should not be read alone. Which I wasn’t sure if he meant verifying Yoder’s theological conclusions against other theologians. But I think what he means is, what does the scripture say in light of Yoder? I mean, Dr. Green is a Bible scholar, so that’s probably... Dr. Green, if you’re listening, which I doubt, you can clarify your meaning of your footnote. Anyway, I just think that’s a really helpful, helpful way to voice it of saying, You can read, also reminder, don’t take him on his own and verify. That should go without saying, but I needed Dr. Green to say that before I was like, yeah, that’s something we should think about. Which, as I just read in someone’s paper on a Neo-Anabaptist termineutic. Are you citing me to me? I’m citing you to you. I argue because I love that. That’s because I’m going to argue with myself now. You know, you always read scripture in a community. The community is hermeneutic. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you got to do it. And then the last kind of stream is the evangelical or post-fundamentalist Dutch Calvinist stream with Richard Malz. He shines on all that sphere, culture, and common grace. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a super common view within the United States. And then from there, we move to the church and how it functions, dialogue between church and culture. There’s some readings there. And then we’ve had several people we’ve interviewed for this podcast reference the toolbox or the dialogue box. The dialogue box. We’re going to get to know what it is soon. And so the dialogue box is going to come in and there’s a little bit of reading there. So triumphalism, incarnation, colonialism, contextualization versus accommodation, justice and mission, all those things kind of get weaved in. And that final tranche. So that’s really helpful. Thank you for that. I wanted to, and we don’t have to spend a lot of time, we’re not going to make this a super long episode, but we’ll see where this goes. And when you were talking about the readings for the church world distinction, I heard you kind of going through like, I want to, you didn’t use this term, I’m going to dabble in this one. And I’m going to also read this one because I did the same thing. And I’m wondering, this is something that’s very similar, I think, about us. It’s like... Some people might say we’re overachievers. I think we’re just very curious and we really like to read. I’m just nosy. You’re nosy, yeah. I like to say curious. It sounds less intrusive. But I got the Catherine Tanner book as well, even though I do intend on like staying in that. I actually bought all the books because I plan on reading all the books. Oh, okay. Well, someone’s church is paying him a lot more than mine is, but that’s great to have that kind of book, buddy. I think that this is a really good opportunity to maybe read a little bit broader because there isn’t going to be one single... I don’t think one single tradition that we’re going to take our church world distinction from is going to bleed into other things. And specifically what I mean for me, and then maybe you can share is like postmodernity is a reality in my context. It’s it’s not the only reality in the many cultures around me. And so I’d like to be informed about that. And Neo-Anabaptist approach is definitely also my posture and describes it, but it’s not giving me all the tools that I need. So I’m going to read as broadly as I can in the time. Yeah. You know, and some of that I think is just, A, recognizing that most of us operate in more than one context. You know, I serve at a church in one of the most ethnically, religiously diverse cities in the United States. But I also... I also do some work where I take American churches and pastors on learning tours where we explore the themes of secularism and postmodernity in Montreal, Canada. And so I’m trying to juggle, okay, well, here’s this part where I’m really trying to navigate the postmodern aspect, but I also live in this hyper multicultural reality. Yeah. All of these things are swimming around. So how do I navigate them? But really, for the most part, I would wager more people in my church probably have a view more in line with Richard Mao and kind of a common grace conception. So do I lean into what my people kind of contextually lean to or do I go more where I find myself? Yes. Now, that brings in a really important and wise point, and that is reading intentionally for the context, because we are going to write a paper. That isn’t necessarily the only goal we have from this class. But we always write a paper. But we always write a paper. The paper’s coming, whether that’s your goal or not. It’s happening, and it will have a due date. We also have the opportunity to read to further our understanding or maybe bring up more questions about particular context. So I love that you mentioned the work that you get to do in Montreal and then the difference with like your church. Are you going to write this paper about the context of your church or maybe something else? You have those options because of those. That’s a February problem, baby. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, you do have to read in September or October as well, but I hear what you’re saying. I just think it’s a really valid point to say. We don’t talk in this program about the church and culture, but the church and cultures, because we all live among multiple cultures. And that’s part of the need for a contextual theology, is to understand the various cultures, or at least acknowledge that we’re See, that’s where I critique Baptists, right there. That’s it. You just did it. Just read a whole lot of BART. Yeah, well, there you go. There you go. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So we have to find a new Airbnb because the seminary moved. There’s all these different things that are coming up. We’ve got to find a new taco place. We’ve got to find a new taco place. If anyone’s listening that knows Oak Park, would you please just let us know? You know, I don’t think of Oak Park as the height of tacos. I don’t either. I didn’t think of Wild Illinois either. Absolutely. I am prepared to be surprised. Let’s just say that. It’s going to be good. There is a Trader Joe’s really close to where we’re holding class. This is going to become a travel podcast. It is. But I am super excited. It’s going to be a good season. We’ve already got a round of people we’re interviewing lined up. So it’s just super exciting. I am really looking forward to some of the interviews we’ve got coming over the next month. They’re going to be so fun to have. I’m really looking forward to digging in. Yeah, me too. And as always... It’s nice to see you, Luke. It’s good to see you, too. I’m glad that we’re back at it for season two. We did it. Yeah. Thanks for listening, everyone. We’ll catch you next time. Podcast Transcript Over This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

4. 

   22 Jul 2026

   Episode 10 - Season Finale

   For Context: Seaon Finale: Contextual Biblical Interpretation Episode # 10 🎙️ Episode Overview In this season finale, Gino and Luke recap their recent Contextual Biblical Interpretation class at Northern Seminary taught by Dr. Cynthia Long Westfall. They pull back the curtain on being students in the D.Min program, discussing their final papers, the theological theories they are applying, and what they are reading (and playing) this summer. Key Discussion Points * Program Updates: Gino announces his new role as the Program Advisor for the Contextual Ministry D.Min program. A new cohort is starting in June 2027. * Dr. Cynthia Long Westfall: The hosts reflect on Dr. Westfall’s impressive ability to teach contextual biblical interpretation on the fly based on student-selected passages, highlighting her broad expertise as both a scholar and a practitioner. * Gino’s Final Paper: Gino is constructing a contextual hermeneutic that synthesizes a Neo-Anabaptist framework with a Liberation Theology lens, exploring how a peace ethic must actively move towards the marginalized rather than isolating from society. He plans to apply this to Jesus’ reading in the synagogue in Luke 4. * Luke’s Final Paper: Luke is applying “Disgust Theory” to the MAGA movement’s frequent use of 2 Chronicles 7:14. He contrasts the political use of disgust (fear of contamination/identifying wickedness in others) with a Christian ethic of disgust, referencing Peter’s vision in Acts 10 where God calls believers beyond their disgust thresholds. * Summer Banter: The hosts swap board game recommendations (Harmonies and the anti-colonial cooperative game Spirit Island) and confess to their massive book-buying habits. Resources & Books Mentioned * Northern Seminary (http://seminary.edu): Learn more about the D.Min in Contextual Theology (email Gino at gcurcuruto@seminary.edu for info). * For Context Newsletter (https://www.google.com/search?q=http://forcontextpod.substack.com): Subscribe for more context behind the news. * Paul and Gender by Cynthia Long Westfall * The Anatomy of Disgust by William Ian Miller * Acts (Commentary) by Willie James Jennings * After Virtue by Alasdair MacIntyre * The Right to Sex by Amia Srinivasan * East of Eden by John Steinbeck For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu/). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu/). 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) Transcript I’m Gino Curcuruto. I’m Luke Stare. And you’re listening to For Context, a podcast about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry and contextual theology. For Context is brought to you by Northern Seminary. For over 113 years, Northern Seminary has been training women and men for leadership in the church. If you want to check out all of the academic offerings Northern Seminary has, including a doctoral ministry cohort in Contextual Theology, please go to seminary.edu. A new cohort for the D-Min in Contextual Theology is getting started in June of 2027. If you’re interested or would like more information on how to come study with Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Jonathan Tran, Dr. Cindy Westfall and others, Please reach out to me directly at gcurcuruto at seminary.edu. That’s G-C-U-R-C-U-R again, U-T-O at seminary.edu. And I’ll give you the information we can chat. Hey, welcome to For Context. Luke and I are recording this episode. It will be our last episode of the season. Not our last episode ever. Yeah, just the season finale. No cliffhangers, no weird intrigue. That remains to be seen. That is true. We are kind of going off the cuff here. But we do have some ideas. I guess a few things. We could talk about what we’re doing in real time with regard to this program. But one thing that’s happened since the start of this podcast series was now I’m the program advisor for the Contextual Ministry D-Manage. Yeah, I feel like I don’t know if I’m supposed to say this, but I feel like we started this podcast mainly to discuss what we were learning and to get conversations going with graduates and learn more about contextual theology together. But also I was kind of motivated because of what Fitch said about retiring. And telling folks that he was going to be retiring. And I thought, that’s not going to happen, is it? How do we press this so this great program continues? And so I’d like to say that. And now it’s all your fault. It’s all my fault. So the program gets to continue. We’re going to start a new cohort in June 27. And you don’t want to miss it. You don’t want to miss it. All five listeners out there. Yeah, I think we’re only got four. We shouldn’t overestimate. Let another man’s lips praise. Not thine own. Not thine own. So that’s exciting. If you want more information about the Contextual Theology Program at Northern, check the show notes. There’s going to be some more info coming out from Northern about all of this and the new cohort starting. But we want you, our dear four listeners, to know first. So jump in. Now you know. Yeah. So Luke, we just took a class. Just took a class with Dr. Cindy Westfall. Yeah, Cynthia Long Westfall, as she is professionally known and published. Yes, yes. But yeah. Yeah, you want to say some things about that? Because I do. I want to say that what an impressive mind to be able to teach with such expertise from such a broad perspective. Broad conception of ideas and then say, okay, so I want to know what passages you guys want to talk about. And so the topic was contextual theology, contextual, actually contextual biblical interpretation, right? And then so she was saying, which context, which passages do you want to learn about? And we would just rattle some off and the next day she’d have PowerPoints. That’s kind of impressive to me. It was amazing. Just such an insightful person. And I think too uniquely sits in this space where she’s not just a scholar, but has been a practitioner in so many areas of ministry from working with the homeless to, I mean, just it’s all over the map. She’s on the board for Canadian Baptist Ministries. I like to joke with Gino that Because he likes to dog on Baptists. Gino, really, it turns out, I think all of your favorite scholars are Baptists. They absolutely are. I mean, Anabaptists, you guys want to consider them Baptists. We want to say, no, we’re not. But I get it. Yeah, I get it. It’s true. It is maybe some insider information to know that we like to joke about that. And you give me side eye during the lectures about, hey, that was another Baptist. Which is great. I don’t know if I deserve it, but I’ll take it. You know, that’s what I’m going to say. You made one dig and now it’s going to be a thing forever. But yeah, just such a great scholar. She, you know, as happens for all of our cohorts, gave us a reading list to prepare for our time together. One of the optional readings was her book, Paul and Gender, which if you’ve never read it and you are curious what the new test, what Paul and the Pauline Corpus actually has to say about gender, that’s probably the most exhaustive and well-written and well-studied book you could ever hope to find on the matter. And so highly recommend that book. But it was just, she’s got such an ironic disposition and Truly, truly, truly. And I’m still just like processing all the things she all the like bits of knowledge that dropped in the class. Yes. And so from that class right now in real time, as we’re recording, we are coming up against our deadline, our due date for our assignment. So maybe just for the sake of fun, I like to think of it as fun. Let’s talk a little bit about what the assignment is and what we’re working on. Maybe share that with our listeners. Yeah. So there were three options for how we were to write a paper. One was to utilize a contextual theological method of interpretation we discussed in the class. The other was to analyze a passage and kind of do a really deep exegetical study of it, making sure to draw from a wide variety of sources. I’m probably butchering these because I picked one of them and that’s what I’m sticking with. And then the other was to develop your own And I will say, I’m going to jump in, I’m sorry, I was going to say that Cindy did say to do the exegetical paper, I just thought that was funny, to a class of contextual theorists. Bless you. So, Gino, what are you writing about? What did you do? Well, I’m not doing that, although I did just because of time. I did think about, like, I should turn in that really well-received exegetical paper I wrote for my master’s program that’s already been graded and corrected. I think that’s unethical. It’s totally unethical. That’s why I’m saying I’m not going to do it. I didn’t do it. Yeah, you’re the program director now. You can’t do stuff like that. No, advisor, program advisor. Advisor, you’re the program advisor. Let me advise you not to do that in the program. Thank you. There’s still room for ethical dilemmas, let’s say. I chose the option of constructing a contextual hermeneutic, which felt initially It was a very arrogant thing to do, like way too much. But I’ve, for a long time, been kind of operating in what I would say is a Neo-Anabaptist hermeneutic that’s kind of sifted through a liberation theology lens. I’ve written kind of more theologically on this, on what it looks like in our context, but I’ve never... I’ve actually done the work of looking into the historical Anabaptist interpretations and then kind of coming up with a synthesizing those. So that’s what I’m working on, synthesizing those, which is a challenge because of the diversity and disbursement, let’s say, of Anabaptists as they’re on the run from martyrdom. And then moving into like a neo-Anabaptist frame, like what are some of the things that might actually shift from the Anabaptist hermeneutic? And then I’ve got to kind of move that against the liberation theology corrective lens is what I would describe it as. And then at some point I’ve got to choose a passage. For those who are not scholars of church history or theology, what happens when you put a Neo-Anabaptist framework together with a liberation theology framework? Why would those things maybe not necessarily cohabit the same frame? How do they critique and inform one another? Why those two? I mean, obviously, they’re coming together in you and your context. But for people who lack the insider knowledge, what’s going on there? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one thing that isn’t often discussed that would help to set the table here a little bit is that I would see an Anabaptist hermeneutic as a liberation hermeneutic being oppressed by. I think that’s helpful. But one of the things that the Anabaptists’ theological practices, like from their hermeneutic, how they lived, it often looked like sectarianism or separation from the world. Communities that kind of made these practices their way of life together to witness to the kingdom, but also remove themselves from the world. I don’t know if that’s a response to a lot of challenges that were encountered over the years of being marginalized. But what happens when you put up a liberation theology or a liberation hermeneutic there, you have the question that I think is asked really well by Howard Thurman is like, what is your theology? What does your Christianity say to those people who have their backs against the wall? And so if your theology results in Hey, for those of us who have found Jesus, we’re going to remove ourselves from society and not move towards the marginalized because we’ve already been saved, in a sense. And I’m way overstating this, obviously. But the liberation theology has a priority for and a preference for the oppressed, the poor. I think for some of the peace ethic that could remove us from society. Instead, it could become a peace witness that moves us into society and towards those who are on the margins with their backs against the wall. Very nice. Have you decided what passage you’ll try to apply your methodology to? I think I’m going to look at... Jesus in the synagogue in Luke 4, kind of pronouncing his ministry and in his reading of this, this has come because I think there’s lots of different interpretations as to how that vision, if you will, should be enacted in the world today. You know, what does it look like to liberate the captives, to bring... Peace to the world. I was also considering, and this is way too ambitious, the entire Exodus narrative. Maybe a bit much. It’s only a 15 page paper. There’s a chance. That might be too much to handle. Yeah, I’m never one to turn away the opportunity to take a paper into a book proposal. Well, there you go. Save it for later. Yeah, save it for later. So Luke, what are you writing about? I am using disgust theory, which disgust theory is basically... It comes out of psychology, but it’s also got some influence in political science, anthropology, sociology, etc. Basically, how does disgust, the very visceral emotion we feel, impact relationships, political practice, all of these kind of public things that we think about? Yeah. So I am applying disgust theory to MAGA’s usage of 2 Chronicles 714, which is their most cited verse. So across over a decade of MAGA politicking, 2 Chronicles 714, which I feel like I have to say it now in a really prosperity gospel, southern TV style preacher voice. And it’s, if my people who are called by my name, We’ll repent of their wicked ways. I will heal the land. I butchered it a little bit, but you get the picture. And so it’s the most used verse by the Make America Great Again movement since the 2015-2016 campaign trail. And it continues to play a prominent role in usage. It figured prominently at the January 6th insurrection. And has also figured prominently most recently in the America Reads, the Bible event that happened in April. It was the first that Trump read from his office. So just across the board, it’s got this, and it has a longer history of usage in American politics that extends prior to MAGA, but it’s not as frequent. And so I’m taking that and basically asking the question of, well, who are the wicked ones to MAGA? Yeah. And really it boils down to wickedness is not about MAGA’s own sin. They’re not trying to repent of their own wickedness. It’s about identifying wickedness in the outgroup. And really what happens is they end up using disgust, terminology. And so I’m basically just using disgust to trace the impact of the identification of wickedness and others as a political motivator. And it sounds like maybe that’s overblown, Luke, but it’s not a stretch to think about every MAGA policy as being motivated by a fear of contamination, right? Which is what disgust is. It’s a fear of contamination. So illegal immigration, sexual deviance, artificial food dyes, all of it is a disgust motivated thing. And so there’s a lot of disgust at work. And then there’s some political theorists who basically are writing about how when disgust becomes the political motivator, disgust is durable. And it’s hard to change disgust. And so these attitudes are pervasive. And we don’t know the ramifications for using disgust as a long-term political motivator because it does not die easily. It’s hard to change what disgusts you. So in... Like critique of ideology, Zizek will talk about the empty signifier that is there. So I’m tracking with you about why this is hard to die. It doesn’t go away slowly because if there isn’t anything there at the core of this belief other than the critique of anyone they decide is disgusting, you have to make that case. You have to continue to call Things disgusting in order to exist, in order to uphold your existence. Am I tracking with you? Yeah, and so one of the main, there are lots of writers on disgust, actually, but there’s a book called The Anatomy of Disgust by William Ian Miller, and one of the things he writes about is, you know, there’s a difference, and this is towards the end of the book, he’s talking about disgust’s role in democratic civilizations, and disgust is not the same as contempt. You know, contempt wants to ignore that the other thing exists. What we find contemptible, we can ignore. And we actually want to ignore because it’s a way of demonstrating contempt, but you can’t ignore what disgusts you because you have to continue to move towards purification and eradicate the source of disgust because it’s ultimately a risk of contamination. But you always need the disgusting. Just downwind is what William Ian Miller writes. And so there’s so much there. But you think about like Trump in 2024 saying that immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country. And there seems to be some... Traction that can be gained within Christianity, at least with this idea of being cleansed. And, you know, not just the in and out groups, because we could, I’m sure you will talk about this, maybe we can too, about like, what is the approach towards the out group of a Christian versus the MAGA Christian? But what does it look like to be cleansed by the work of loving your neighbor or being loved by your neighbor versus casting them aside? Yeah. Well, where I’m going and what my conclusion will end up being is, I haven’t written it yet, but the subsection header in my outline is a Christian ethic of disgust in a wicked world. And so William Eden Miller, at the very beginning of his book, has this quote, and he says, And those who have very high thresholds of disgust are hence rather insensitive to the disgusting. We think of as belonging to somewhat different categories, proto-human like children, sub-human like the mad, or superhuman like saints. And so... I’m going to then tie that to Peter’s vision of the sheep coming down from heaven with all sorts of animals for him to kill and eat, which would have been completely disgusting to him. And so basically talk about how God calls us beyond disgust. And that’s a very clear vision in Acts. There’s actually a lot of research too that people with low disgust thresholds tend to have more socially conservative beliefs and behaviors. They’re more against interracial dating. They tend to have a higher support for profiling of immigrants, higher stances against gay sex. All of these things tend to go with a low disgust threshold. And so how do churches help raise the threshold of disgust? A plus, Luke. Well done. We’ll find out. I’m grading you as the program advisor. If you have not, you probably have, but if you have not read Willie James Jennings’ Acts commentary on that Acts 10 passage, it would be very helpful for your paper. Thank you. I will. If you don’t have it, I will send you the resources. Yeah, please do it because I don’t have it. I will include it along my many, many sources that detail a decade of use of 2 Chronicles 7.14. Just for the listener, since we’re having this conversation, he is one of the first people that I learned from this idea of how difficult that vision must have been for Peter, not just to see these animals that he thought of as disgusting, like you say, but also that those... Those feelings also were connected to people and land, to place. And so Peter is also reckoning with... His fear of contamination. Exactly. And his fear of contamination that often, like, I admit that I often have thought of that as just, like, very superficial. Like, oh, man, I will have this bad taste in my mouth if I eat that thing I don’t like, or I might get nauseous. But he’s pressing it all the way to the ground. Like, you actually don’t like those people. Because they eat those things, you think less of them. And that kind of pressing into what you’ve already articulated, I think Jennings kind of backs that, supports that pretty well. Send it my way. You got it. Yeah, so that’s what we’re working on. That’s great. That’s great. And those are, if you were to join the Connexional Theology Program at Northern Seminary, you too could get disgusted by what you read about disgust. Absolutely. I mean, I don’t have all my notes in front of me, but we learned quite a number of different, we were introduced briefly to a lot of different social theory and how of ways of interpreting the Bible through those lenses. I think that were really helpful. And I know you and another one of our cohort classmates, Rich, shout out to Rich. He’s working with something like that. I talked to him recently. He’s He’s deep in the weeds of MAGA as well. So you guys, man, you got to clear your caches on your browsers. Yeah, my cookies are all messed up. My cookies are disgusting. So Luke, what do you have planned for the rest of this summer? Oh man, it’s been really busy. And so trying not to be super busy is really the gist of it. I’ve had a lot of travel already this summer and just activity. So spending time with family. We’ve got two little kids at home finishing this paper. I assume I’m getting a syllabus for our next class pretty soon. So we’ll work on buying what I assume will be a fat stack of books and beginning to read those. Playing board games, staying inside during the day unless I’m at a pool because I live in Texas and it’s gross out there. Speaking of disgust. Speaking of disgust, Texas in July. Yeah. Hey, speaking of board games, have you played Harmonies? I’m sure it’s pretty popular. Have you ever played Harmonies? I have not. Oh, okay. Well, I’m not going to describe the whole game, but my boys, my sons are into that and they’ve taught me it’s really a lot of fun. I like it. I like all the games that are a little bit more like cooperative in nature. Maybe not technically a cooperative game. I have a game for you. Yeah, the ones where you’re not literally going head-to-head trying to destroy your opponent, I think that takes me to a bad place. Okay. To be a pacifist, I need people to build into me pacifist tendencies, not go kill people. This isn’t a pacifist game by any means, but it is cooperative. I’ve gotten really into a board game called Spirit Islands. And Spirit Island. And so you basically, it’s a cooperative game. So there’s a little island map. And you and your other players are, you take like spirits that have different abilities and powers. And you are working on driving out the colonizers of this island together as the spirits of the land. And so maybe not pacifist, but it is fun. And it’s actually really challenging. It would be good to do that. I don’t know that we necessarily need to resort to violence, but that’s a contextual theology conversation for another day. Luke, I want to kind of wrap up our time by asking you the question that we ask every guest. What are you reading? That’s not related to one of the classes that we’re in. What are you reading these days? Anything? Do you have time for reading? You know, I just finished reading The Anatomy of Disgust. I have started and need to finish The Right to Sex by I think it’s Amiya Srinivasan. And then I think I said that right. We’ll find out. And then I have like 75% of the way through a reread of East of Eden because it was on my Kindle and I was on a plane. Nice. I haven’t read that yet and I need to. It’s something actually I was hoping to start. That’s what I will be reading as of Saturday when I’m on vacation. It’s the ultimate basic white boy book. My wife loves it and my daughters love it. So yes, maybe white boy and girl book. I don’t know. That’s fair. I jokingly think of it as a very, it’s like what pumpkin spice lattes are to white women in the fall east of Eden is to men who read literature. Well, I’m taking it off my list then. Curious, you’ve just ruined me for this book. This is terrible. Thanks a lot, Luke. I love East of Eden. But it had a big heyday because like half of Mumford & Sons’ first album was based on the book. That’s right. That’s right. Well, knowing me, I’m always behind the trends by a couple of years. So that’s good. That’s good. I’m primed and ready to read it. What are you reading? I am still reading after Virtue because I’ve been reading like three other books for this paper. Hot Virtue Summer. Isn’t that what you called it? It’s a hot McIntyre Summer. Yeah, exactly. I got a bunch of McIntyre. Yeah, I’m looking at some books that will probably pop up on our syllabus for the next course. I don’t have a copy of the syllabus, but I do have insider information to some things. So I’m looking at some of those. Is that like insider trading? It’s not, because I got you a copy of one of the books, and I’ll be sending it to you, so I guess that is unfair preferences. And I was going to read East of Eden, but apparently I can’t do that. Gino, it’s okay to read it. Okay, I’ll read that this week. I’ve got a stack of books. No, that’s pretty much what I’m doing. But books, I told you, I mentioned this to you, but I’m going to tell everyone here, I really don’t want to share this information, but every year outside of the city, at the Mennonite Heritage Center, they have their annual book sale, and it’s like a dollar for paperbacks, two dollars for hard cards. Our diehard fan base in Philadelphia is really going to... I just ruined this for you. I know. I’m not going to get any more of these books. I’m not going to find any more. But what I do is on the third day, it’s their $5 bag sale. So you just fill up a bag and you can get all sorts of stuff because people’s libraries that they empty out right there. It’s great. It’s a nice little benefit of living in this area. All the Anabaptist books you could ever want, Luke. Didn’t you just buy a bunch of Nouwen books, though? Well, apparently they got rid of all of them and just dumped their Nowen. I got like 18 different Nowen books in one bag, yes. Yes, yes. You got to look for these opportunities when you’re a poor student. As a former Quaker, I would ask you, how are you living into the Quaker Testament of simplicity with your book purchasing habit? From one piece tradition to another. I am absolutely not living into simplicity with books. I probably have a problem. That’s the first step that I have to admit that I have a problem. But right now I’m at probably have a problem. Well, that’s awesome. Thanks for your insight on the class and your paper. It was really, for me, interesting as I’m working online, and I hope that the listeners are enjoying getting these kind of behind-the-scenes look at what it’s like to be a student in this program. It’s pretty great. You should do it. It’s a ton of fun, and you get to read some great stuff that you probably would not have encountered otherwise. Absolutely. So we’ll wrap up this episode and say we’re going to be back in the fall is our aim to have some more interviews and more conversations about contextual theology in this program. So thanks for joining us. Thanks, Luke, for doing this with me. It’s been fun. It’s been a blast. Okay. See you then. Peace. PodcastTranscriptCover This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

5. 

   8 Jul 2026

   Episode 09 - Dr. Alan Roxburgh

   For Context: Bible and Context Interlude Episode # 09 🎙️ Episode Overview Podcast Show Notes: For Context Episode Title: From Missional to Contextual: Leading in the Great Unraveling Hosts: Gino Curcuruto & Luke Stair Guest: Dr. Alan Roxburgh (Pastor, Teacher, Writer, and Consultant) Episode Summary In this episode, Gino and Luke sit down with Dr. Alan Roxburgh to unpack a fundamental shift happening in theological education and church leadership: the transition from “missional leadership” to “contextual theology.” Drawing from his recent book, Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling, Dr. Roxburgh offers a piercing critique of how the Western church reacts to decline with anxiety and quick fixes. Instead of trying to “fix” what is broken, he invites leaders to embrace a different imagination—moving away from corporate metrics and stepping into the role of an “abbot,” gardener, or midwife to cultivate presence, dwelling, and discernment in a changing era. Key Takeaways * The Evolution of ‘Missional’: In the 1990s, the term “missional” emerged (influenced heavily by Leslie Newbigin) to remind the church that mission is its core identity, not just a department. However, Western churches quickly co-opted the language into another programmatic strategy to fix declining numbers. * The Shift to ‘Contextual’: Moving toward “contextual theology” is an attempt to escape the anxious, fix-it mentality of modern church growth and instead ask how to faithfully inhabit the specific, local reality where the church finds itself. * The Ending of Modernity: We are not just in an era of change, but a change of era—the unraveling of a cultural framework that has existed since the 16th century. Modern human agency tells us we can figure out the answers and stay in control, but this new unknown space requires us to relinquish control. * Reimagining Leadership Metaphors: Dr. Roxburgh challenges leaders to reject modern corporate leadership models and instead view themselves as: * Abbots: Hold the rules of life, provoke practice, and look after the spiritual formation of a community. * Gardeners/Farmers/Midwives: Cultivate environments, attend to growth, and assist in birthing what God is already doing, rather than manufacturing results. * The Practices of Dwelling and Discernment: Instead of chasing a five-year strategy or mission statement, communities must learn the slow, long-term art of dwelling in a neighborhood, listening to stories, and discerning where God’s agency is already at work. Notable Quotes “Mission had really become in the language world of the Protestant churches a department, a program... missional stumbled upon a language that would say mission isn’t a program of the church, it is what the church is by its very nature.” “We are in a massive, disruptive unraveling of the culture... How do we form communities that are no longer in a hurry to change and fix everything, but are ready to dwell and listen and attend to what God is doing amongst us in the local?” “An abbot is one who simply lays down the need for a mission statement, vision statement, and five-year strategy. Those things go out the window because all of them are about human agency wrapped in prayer.” Resources Mentioned * Book: Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling by Dr. Alan Roxburgh * Book: Foolishness to the Greeks: The Gospel and Western Culture by Leslie Newbigin * Thinkers/Figures Referenced: Pope Francis, Christian Smith, Descartes, Thomas Aquinas, John Duns Scotus, Mary Harrington. Connect with Northern Seminary Interested in joining the conversation or studying with leaders like Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Jonathan Tran, and Dr. Cindy Westfall? A new Doctorate of Ministry (D.Min) cohort in Contextual Theology is starting in June 2027. * Website: seminary.edu (https://www.seminary.edu) * Email Gino directly: gcurcuruto@seminary.edu (mailto:gcurcuruto@seminary.edu) For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) * Alan Roxburgh: Leaving Egypt (https://leavingegyptpodcast.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) New Doctorate in Contextual Theology Cohort Starting in June 2027! If you are interested in studying at Northern Seminary and learning from the likes of Drs. David Fitch, Jonathan Tran, Cindy Westfall, and many more, reach out to Gino: gcurcuruto@seminary.edu (mailto:gcurcuruto@seminary.edu) for more information. Transcript (00:00:02.538): i’m gino curcuruto i’m luke stair and you’re listening to for context a podcast (00:00:09.264): about northern seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology (00:00:14.353): our guest today is dr alan roxborough al is a pastor teacher writer and consultant (00:00:20.019): with more than 30 years of experience in church leadership consulting (00:00:23.884): and seminary education his recent book forming communities of hope in (00:00:28.148): the great unraveling is part of the conversation that we have with him (00:00:32.073): but also he served as our (00:00:34.810): professor in a recent contextual theology seminar and we’re going to reflect on (00:00:40.230): that some of the (00:00:41.270): things that we learned press him on a couple of questions that we had and just generally have (00:00:45.050): great conversation so thanks for listening four context is brought to you by northern seminary (00:00:52.030): for over 113 years northern seminory has been training women and men (00:00:59.778): if you want to check out all of the academic offerings (00:01:02.560): the northern seminary has including a doctoral ministry cohort (00:01:06.822): in contextual theology please go to seminary.edu a new cohort for the d-min (00:01:14.446): in contextual theology is getting started in june of 2027 if you’re interested (00:01:20.210): or would like more information on how to come study (00:01:22.891): with dr david fitch dr jonathan tran dr cindy westfall and others (00:01:28.461): please reach out to me directly at gcurcuruto (00:01:32.023): at seminary.edu that’s g c u r c u r again u t o at seminary.edu and i’ll give you (00:01:41.289): the information we can chat uh welcome back to for context today gino (00:01:45.212): and i have dr alan roxborough uh who if you’ve listened to any of (00:01:49.635): the previous episodes you have actually been one of the favorite classes i think (00:01:54.718): of everyone we’ve interviewed so far thank you (00:01:58.496): uh which is high praise because there are a lot of great faculty so (00:02:02.958): but we’re really excited to have you on the podcast for those (00:02:06.019): who aren’t aware dr roxbro has been teaching in the contextual theology program (00:02:10.220): since before it was the contextual theology program i think you’ve been with it (00:02:15.022): since the beginning since the very first cohort yeah (00:02:19.331): which is fantastic you know one of the things I think we wanted to talk to you (00:02:24.535): about is the class we took with you was titled missional leadership and the program (00:02:29.479): as you know used to be called missional leadership and we would love it (00:02:33.863): if you would get into what’s behind that name and then why would a program move away (00:02:41.028): from calling itself a missional leadership program and call itself (00:02:44.651): a contextual theology program instead (00:02:47.642): oh okay well um there’s a lot of things behind the name and why there would be (00:02:54.545): a migration to contextual from missional i think that um back in the 1990s um the (00:03:08.892): the question of mission and the west were being (00:03:18.179): explored in (00:03:21.321): profoundly anxious ways that is the in the 1990s the denominations (00:03:32.806): the major ones the ones we mostly know who had been sort of (00:03:37.088): the regnant culture protestant culture let’s just say of america um were discovering (00:03:47.394): that they had been initially de-centered (00:03:52.697): and that their place in the culture all (00:03:57.620): the data was starting to show this that was not just slowing down (00:04:04.543): but transforming you get a if I can find the book national leaders were having (00:04:14.209): to come to terms with this new reality (00:04:17.790): and basically the fundamental way they came to terms (00:04:22.814): with it they wouldn’t have used this language but how do we fix how do we get back (00:04:30.300): to the place in the culture that we’ve known particularly for our congregations etc (00:04:36.245): and that anxiety and that search for a fix occurred at precisely the same time (00:04:46.368): that missiologists particularly around Leslie Newbigin were coming to terms (00:04:55.432): with their own question which is what is a missionary engagement with (00:05:01.935): the modern west that was that was the language that Newbigin was using in (00:05:08.557): for example foolishness to the Greeks and so these two things found each other (00:05:16.197): in the 90s, probably late 90s. (00:05:19.779): And those of us who were working with Newbigin’s question of mission in (00:05:28.283): the West were aware that the language of mission inside the denominations (00:05:37.628): of America had been turned into some (00:05:42.513): form of programmatic event inside the churches so you had missions departments (00:05:49.954): as well as you had evangelism departments or men’s ministry on and on you could go (00:05:56.075): and so mission had really become in the language world of the protestant churches (00:06:05.037): a department a program so each congregation would have its own missions committee (00:06:12.295): as well as it had its own men’s ministry and women’s ministry and youth ministry and (00:06:17.818): so those who were working in this area with Newbigin friends (00:06:25.283): of mine actually (00:06:28.085): were looking for a language that would say mission isn’t a program (00:06:35.789): of the church it is what the church is by its very nature and that’s when (00:06:42.850): the language of missional was stumbled upon and it was seen as being this sort (00:06:50.772): of kind of language that would open the windows and the doors and give us (00:06:58.914): a renewed grasp that the church was by its very nature shaped by mission so that’s (00:07:09.017): where missional came from but (00:07:12.938): what happened is that it got tagged on or it was created or it became alive at (00:07:22.104): the very moment this other tsunami of anxiety was taking over the churches (00:07:29.429): so you know church growth church this church that in the midst of it missional and (00:07:35.433): so without belaboring at all without without this being intentional (00:07:43.342): missional became the lingua franca of the denominations of the protestant churches (00:07:51.547): without them understanding that what they did was bring into (00:07:57.351): that language their own need to fix and get back to where they were and so (00:08:05.436): over time missional sounded like we were all becoming missional (00:08:11.649): if we could just canoe the mountains better we’d become missional all of that became (00:08:18.650): the thing in the early 2000s and so i suspect that’s why (00:08:22.971): a missional cohort was created in the early 2000s and seminaries created centers (00:08:30.813): for missional blah blah blah blah blah largely because if they did it they get money (00:08:35.834): from lily but the the um and (00:08:40.907): i think it just took time i mean it still hasn’t penetrated (00:08:47.169): that missional had simply lost its coinage it it simply meant how (00:08:55.352): to make your church work in a culture where the church doesn’t work (00:08:59.733): so i suspect that’s why and that’s why there was a shift to okay what (00:09:05.635): then do we call it (00:09:07.053): and the language of contextual emerges which is really trying to do exactly (00:09:13.337): the same thing that the language of missional was trying to do but I think (00:09:18.981): the language of contextual at least presents the ability to take a different tack (00:09:27.947): than that that happened to missional but but I still have my hermeneutic (00:09:33.811): of suspicion is still (00:09:36.533): that by and large in most protestant denominations the drive to fix and the anxiety (00:09:46.538): to turn things around is still pretty strong now probably as (00:09:52.681): the boomer generation dies off because they’re the ones that have been in leadership (00:09:57.783): that will change and contextual might hold a hopeful way (00:10:04.758): of asking different questions do you think (00:10:09.306): that yeah that’s great I have some questions about it I’m sure Luke does as well (00:10:16.768): do you think that it’s a it’s primarily a timing issue that there was this anxiety (00:10:21.730): at this time in the 90s when missional was was coming around (00:10:26.852): or do we always have anxiety to grow the church and we’re going to co-op everything (00:10:31.874): into a technique of some kind or something else am i tracking (00:10:36.496): with you yeah yeah yeah well i mean timing certainly is part of it but um it’s (00:10:45.488): it’s not overstating it to say particularly in the post right after the end of (00:10:52.011): the second world war protestant religion in america was a hot thing people went (00:10:58.873): to church and it’s no small thing that the the greatest period of church planting (00:11:07.217): in america occurs from the 50s through to the 70s and so (00:11:15.193): there is a sense in which these denominations had kind of a right to feel at ease (00:11:23.555): in zion or at ease in babel whatever you want to call it (00:11:28.936): and to be shocked when (00:11:31.997): on their watch all that started to change so that’s one thing (00:11:37.938): so has it always been this way well (00:11:44.528): um i mean yes and no um yeah we are always creating idols and we’re always doing (00:11:52.531): that but it’s not a but the the i i i would say that in america from the end of (00:12:03.435): the second world war the protestant churches really did think they had the formula (00:12:08.576): and that it worked and all was well (00:12:11.308): and so you can understand the shock that began to happen in really in the late 80s (00:12:20.532): when all this other i mean am i is that the question you’re asking yeah no (00:12:25.654): that that’s actually really helpful because it’s revealing that i’m speaking (00:12:29.055): from my perspective and this is like my own context right i i came to faith in (00:12:33.897): the mid to late 90s like later (00:12:36.638): hr in life so all i all i know is anxiety in the church about the church not growing (00:12:43.400): the loss of like the the power that you’re naming or the centrality (00:12:47.302): that you’re naming or that christian smith is naming or documenting (00:12:50.743): in his book that’s really helpful to me yeah but you know (00:12:54.364): the anxiety became very real in the 2000s but it wasn’t i would propose (00:13:04.389): it wasn’t just and isn’t just the anxiety of kind of boomer technocrats who want (00:13:14.595): a method to fix I would say that in the in many of the neo-reform movements (00:13:22.860): that you see which are definitely not run by boomers but by younger cohorts (00:13:32.845): that that anxiety is being addressed by if we get back (00:13:39.109): to you know faithful preaching faithful doctrine clear articulation good teaching (00:13:45.214): then things will change so you know i wouldn’t i wouldn’t (00:13:51.298): that you’re probably not saying this but i wouldn’t reduce it to you know (00:13:56.261): if we could just get over the boomers things would be different (00:13:59.865): sure yeah and you have this uh i think gift of unmasking that very simple statement (00:14:08.272): of if we could just and then fill in the blank yeah how do we how do we move (00:14:14.477): beyond those if we could just blank kind of statements what’s how do we get past (00:14:21.402): that mentality and framework of operating in ministry (00:14:24.464): and church life well i i mean i think that um (00:14:30.290): in (00:14:30.390): a big picture way i would say i don’t know having said i don’t know let me tell you (00:14:35.892): what to do (00:14:38.873): if we could just listen to you (00:14:42.394): so so i i think all of us (00:14:49.236): when we find ourselves in a place that we’ve not been (00:14:53.198): before our normal natural human instinct (00:14:59.343): is to try to read it and interpret it through the lenses of where we are so (00:15:08.127): in other words that’s another way a nice way of saying contextual missiology (00:15:13.870): or contextual theology isn’t itself the magic solution right (00:15:19.393): if you understand what i’m trying to say um the um and so you know i remember this (00:15:27.697): in parenting where (00:15:29.948): when my two boys were teenagers and they were way off in the weeds and their mom (00:15:36.714): and my wife was really upset I remember deciding one day (00:15:42.859): that this is enough I’m not going to let this happen anymore I’m going to fix it and (00:15:49.644): of course the fixing it was what I was given growing up here are the rules abide (00:15:55.429): by them or there’s going to be consequences (00:15:58.327): so all of that was a an anxious reaction to the realities I was facing (00:16:04.409): and my wife said no you won’t you will not lay down the raw if you if you do (00:16:10.091): that you’ll lose them anyway and but I didn’t know what to do like if that wasn’t (00:16:15.573): the answer what then do I do so all that all of that to say is (00:16:20.975): that it is just natural and normal for us to be in some way reactive (00:16:28.020): when our worlds start coming apart and you can’t pretend that that’s not (00:16:33.325): the case it is always going to be the case um the second thing which is not going (00:16:39.730): to be so you know i don’t want to pick on them but you can still (00:16:45.955): and you can create your own list you can still see all kinds of things going (00:16:52.240): on advertised on the internet and that (00:16:54.858): of church events and programs and conventions that are all about fixing right and (00:17:02.785): but here’s I mean to answer your question then is I think one of (00:17:09.530): the most important steps is to come to a place of recognizing (00:17:15.775): that there is no fixing where we are that we are in fact as Pope Francis said (00:17:25.051): not in an era of change but we’re in a change of era and what that means is that all (00:17:35.296): of us have been formed in particular kinds of narratives that we know (00:17:41.439): and we’re comfortable with but when you enter a change of era by and large (00:17:49.223): the skills the capacities the narratives the frameworks (00:17:54.300): that we’ve been given are not gonna read and interpret where we find ourselves. (00:18:00.183): And so I would say that the first important thing, (00:18:04.746): Luke, is this awareness that we aren’t where we are anymore. (00:18:11.310): And in fact, (00:18:14.252): my language is we are in a massive disruptive unraveling of the culture that came (00:18:22.677): into being (00:18:24.755): probably in the 16th century and we came to call modernity that that period (00:18:33.897): that era is coming to an end modernity itself is coming to an end (00:18:40.359): and we are entering this unknown space which is a fairly disorienting dark time so (00:18:47.621): the question you’ve got to ask yourself is how do we then live in that kind (00:18:53.203): of reality and time (00:18:55.191): how do we live in a time (00:18:57.632): when there are no fixes doesn’t matter what your canoe is there are no fixes um and (00:19:07.616): and the (00:19:10.257): so if that’s the case what then do we do and you know as i’ve written in (00:19:15.539): that in the book i recently wrote there are really important things (00:19:19.921): that we can do very important things that we can do um (00:19:25.233): to address that but one of the one of the critical (00:19:33.718): characteristics or anthropologies (00:19:38.281): of being human in the modern era is that by god we can get (00:19:43.944): the answers we can know what to do and we can be in control right in other words (00:19:53.916): we’ll pray when we’ve figured it out and we need God to bless it (00:20:01.021): and so part of what (00:20:03.042): then do we do how then do we live is how do we particularly (00:20:08.206): as leaders how do we form communities that are no longer in a hurry to change (00:20:17.432): and fix everything but are ready to dwell and listen and attend (00:20:23.512): to what god is doing amongst us in the local without needing (00:20:29.215): to know what it’s all going to look like and how it’s all going to work out (00:20:32.456): in other words we don’t need to know what the roi is we don’t need (00:20:38.919): to know what it’s all going to look like because we can’t and so we need leaders (00:20:43.521): who can cultivate those kinds of communities yeah so you you also (00:20:52.500): can see this as a gift i guess not just you personally al but all of us um (00:20:59.443): that this unraveling can be seen as a gift of like getting us away from our grasp (00:21:04.925): of control and as you kind of teach us and remind us of putting god’s agency (00:21:11.607): at first discovery of god’s agency (00:21:16.735): Yeah, and so there’s a gift in that, (00:21:19.036): which seems to be consistent to me with the entire narrative of the Bible, (00:21:24.160): always God inviting people to believe and trust God as the one who loves (00:21:29.443): and is giving the best ways to live. (00:21:33.886): We just seem to want to have control in some ways, (00:21:38.969): and I’m wondering what are some of the practices that you would suggest to those (00:21:43.412): who are listening to... (00:21:46.148): to make that shift sure just before i answer that question let me let me talk about (00:21:51.511): that question of control yeah and (00:21:55.174): to realize this is not some secular modern thing this is the result and the product (00:22:07.542): of christian imagination in the middle ages um for those who want to do all of this (00:22:15.042): this is the emergence of nominalism it stuns scotus and his gang and without getting (00:22:22.548): into it it is the emergence of a sovereign god who cannot be controlled (00:22:33.117): and therefore isn’t predictable and you don’t know what this god is going to do (00:22:40.943): all (00:22:41.163): of that disrupts (00:22:44.234): aquinas’s sort of great chain of being or rational universe in which we (00:22:51.895): as humans had a place and so what you’ve got is as a result of that kind of kind (00:22:59.697): of christian medieval evangelical imagination is this huge disruptive moment in (00:23:08.898): which we as human beings no longer felt (00:23:14.290): we had a place in the universe and i could go on and on around all of that (00:23:20.111): the result was (00:23:23.952): if you can’t figure god out god is not predictable then what you do (00:23:29.293): and i’m conflating a lot of history what you do is you turn from the question (00:23:35.035): of what is our relationship with god because that one’s too damn scary anymore (00:23:41.554): and you turn to what is our relationship with are you ready nature and now we’re (00:23:48.480): into descartes and all kinds of people um and the whole question (00:23:54.564): then becomes number one human agency comes to the center of our lives and number two (00:24:06.013): the location of human agency goes into the self (00:24:12.186): so you are no longer seeking meaning out there in (00:24:17.029): the universe you are seeking meaning inside the self (00:24:23.414): as agent now that’s gone deep that’s what sociologists would call deep culture it’s (00:24:32.942): all the way down right now in modernity so it’s not going to go away in a hurry and (00:24:39.247): so (00:24:41.400): if that’s the case that that’s contextually what’s going on which is why of course (00:24:46.865): if you let me meander a little bit we’d like to you get all this bloody emphasis (00:24:53.312): on discipleship and we’re going to create true disciples and real disciples (00:24:58.377): and proper and and and these pastors and leaders are all trying to get (00:25:02.721): the right discipleship going (00:25:05.249): what they’re trying to do is say how do I shake these human beings (00:25:10.612): whose very natural way of life is to go into themselves right (00:25:16.916): which is why therapy is so popular anymore so you’ve got to gently invite people (00:25:27.323): into practices and I mean I write about these in that book but (00:25:35.743): and it’s hard work I mean this is not easy this doesn’t just pop up and happen (00:25:41.388): because of all I’ve just said it is you know the practices I write about and talk (00:25:47.853): about are number one how we begin to come to learn to dwell again in a place and (00:25:55.379): with the people (00:25:58.102): so I dwell in this neighborhood I’m not planning to leave I’m not (00:26:04.110): but I dwell in this neighborhood in order to be with the people and get (00:26:06.952): to know them I dwell in my local congregation not in order for us (00:26:12.775): to create vision statements and mission statements but just to be there and together (00:26:18.998): and to listen and to engage each other’s stories so I do (00:26:22.720): that dwelling this is practice over a long period of time and in that dwelling I (00:26:30.945): with others begin to cultivate (00:26:34.920): a lost art of how do i discern in other words how do i learn again to ask (00:26:40.664): the question what’s god doing here rather than all the questions i’ve been trained (00:26:47.067): in which are now that now that we’ve uh now that we’ve seen (00:26:50.889): the needs how do we meet them or now that we’ve defined people as assets and (00:26:55.692): the assets they bring what are the assets that are missing and how do we do all of (00:26:59.894): that objectification of human beings (00:27:02.716): which are about my anxious needs to be important and have control how do i let (00:27:07.939): that go so it’s a long journey and therefore (00:27:13.103): the language i would prefer is not leaders who are pastors or apostles or all (00:27:22.048): that crap but how do we again become abbots (00:27:28.412): i think you’re gonna have to define that (00:27:29.933): a little bit for everybody (00:27:32.773): you mean there’s too many protestants on this there’s too many protestants (00:27:40.337): the (00:27:40.718): the um (00:27:43.679): there’s lots of ways of defining it but the the abba abbas male (00:27:50.783): and female were they um were this what would you call the spiritual leaders of (00:27:58.628): a community happened to be called (00:28:02.929): abbeys or monasteries and these communities were formed around a rule (00:28:11.691): of life right um i think i think benedictine is what prayer (00:28:20.033): and hospitality it’s prayer and work ora at labora ora and labora so (00:28:25.834): in other words they they came together around very very simple uh rules of life (00:28:33.193): we’re going to live this way as part not part but in the northumbria community (00:28:39.574): for me it’s availability and vulnerability so each day (00:28:44.795): through daily office i ask myself that question so anyway so you have a community (00:28:49.576): of people who are saying we are coming together (00:28:54.757): in order to live to pray (00:28:59.218): and work together in this place where we are (00:29:03.827): the abbot is the one who lives and works in the benedictine tradition (00:29:11.490): with his people who originally most of (00:29:15.591): whom were not ordained remember benedicts monastery were not ordained people (00:29:23.694): but lives and works with them in order to say to them how are you doing (00:29:29.396): with your rule of life (00:29:34.637): and they would listen and (00:29:35.918): the abbot would say why don’t you try this why don’t you (00:29:43.124): try daily office (00:29:44.485): or why don’t you why don’t you go and live with this group (00:29:49.989): of people anyway it wasn’t a set of rules but (00:29:55.273): the practices like daily office like all kinds of practices (00:30:00.011): we’re not this is what you have to do but here are ways in (00:30:03.733): which you particularly can be formed inside these rules of life so that was (00:30:11.517): the abbot’s work the abbot was like a father or a mother overseeing that work and so (00:30:19.481): the abbot the abbot was not you know i’ve just been called to this place (00:30:26.657): so you know i’m gonna live with them for a year just to see how they are and then at (00:30:31.100): the end of the year we’re gonna we’re gonna kind of have a retreat and come up with (00:30:36.044): a mission statement and vision statement and then after that we’re going (00:30:40.027): to develop our you know our planning and our strategy that’s that that’s not (00:30:46.232): the habit that’s modernity gone mad now behind that is a theology which is (00:30:55.833): in the formation and remember some of Benedict’s practices, one of them was stability, right? (00:31:05.239): We’re not going anywhere. (00:31:12.624): But by living in these practices, (00:31:15.886): you’re living as God’s people in uncertain times and uncertain places (00:31:22.070): and you’re confessing before God (00:31:25.993): we have no friggin strategy to fix all this but we are going to pray and work (00:31:31.834): or we’re going to be vulnerable and available and we’re going to let you do (00:31:37.095): the rest (00:31:39.556): now for so that’s I’m wandering away now but that’s what an abbot is (00:31:44.997): about okay and in our culture then an abbot is one who simply lays down the need (00:31:55.299): for a mission statement, vision statement, and five-year strategy. (00:32:00.243): Those things go out the window because all of them are about human agency wrapped in prayer. (00:32:08.613): now you you um you mentioned the the dwelling as (00:32:12.416): a practice there’s also we know we can read the book but we know the discerning and (00:32:18.079): then experimenting or exploring yeah right and so i’m just trying to relate this to (00:32:23.323): the abbot would an abbot be someone who (00:32:28.157): for lack of a better word just cares for people in those practices when you you ask (00:32:34.662): the question about like how are you doing with your rule of life (00:32:38.986): and making suggestions it’s just it’s maybe not necessarily an overseer but an elder (00:32:45.091): in some way they provoke they provoke their practice provoke the practice i like (00:32:50.275): that provoke that’s a good word but uh an abbot heads i mean an abbot is the ruler (00:32:57.621): right it’s not you know loosey goosey you know we’ll do what the hell we want (00:33:03.384): and thank you abbot no the abbot is the ruler the holder of the rule and (00:33:10.148): the practices but but not (00:33:15.151): the abbot doesn’t crack whips and the abbot cultivates (00:33:19.053): the spaces the environments the abbot lives in prayer for his or her people um (00:33:26.737): and forms them in a way of life yeah so um (00:33:32.819): yeah yeah and so to mix (00:33:36.560): the metaphors you know if modern uh church leadership kind of borrowing (00:33:41.221): from corporate ideals you know is a farmer it sounds like what you’re describing (00:33:45.242): as opposed to a farmer a managerial mass scale kind of project you’re describing (00:33:49.804): a gardener correct a gardener a farmer (00:33:54.367): those are good so there’s no single metaphor gardener farmer (00:34:04.976): I talk about midwife (00:34:07.598): and you’ll notice I use none of the leadership characteristics (00:34:14.664): from Ephesians right I’m not talking about prophet teacher da da da da da da da da (00:34:24.028): for some very particular reasons. (00:34:28.471): So yeah, those are the metaphors I would use. (00:34:32.674): Farmer, gardener, midwife. (00:34:36.117): This is the role of the abbot. (00:34:42.141): Now, the thing is that (00:34:52.587): abbey’s monasteries were closed orders right you when you came in you came in (00:34:59.110): and there were reasons for that um the the um (00:35:04.051): and you can’t well you could you could do that today you could say who are the bunch (00:35:09.093): of people that want to live by this but congregations don’t work that way yeah (00:35:14.835): the people still live by consumer choice whether or not we’re trying to shape them (00:35:18.557): into that absolutely right absolutely right and and and (00:35:23.252): my guess is it’s not that you give up it’s that you’re not going to change that in (00:35:29.716): a hurry consumer choice (00:35:35.039): is you know it’s not that it’s not that somebody (00:35:39.983): in North America kind of gets up one morning when they’re 8 or 9 and says I got (00:35:45.306): a choice I’m not going to be a consumer anymore (00:35:49.989): by very different definition they are (00:35:52.942): right and then you get into the question which is a contextual question how does (00:36:00.826): a culture change which gets back to how i responded to you at (00:36:04.769): the beginning uh luke i think my answer is i don’t know i honestly don’t know except (00:36:15.074): that probably it’s more like a virus getting into the bloodstream (00:36:22.035): than it is (00:36:24.756): most of the other ways and so how viruses get (00:36:30.419): into bloodstreams are it is very interesting like for example i would say (00:36:35.821): that going back to the 1950s or 60s or going back to the 1990s (00:36:42.904): when newbigin was writing and all this missional stuff (00:36:49.447): that was a period of time in (00:36:50.968): which (00:36:52.781): no matter what we said about the sixties there wasn’t going to be a lot (00:36:57.763): of basic culture change there was going to be a lot of stuff going on inside (00:37:02.944): the overarching shape of the culture but i would say (00:37:07.026): that now we are probably witnessing the early stages of the ending of modernity (00:37:22.279): and if somebody says what do you think is coming I don’t know but these are moments (00:37:31.684): when I think (00:37:35.786): putting abbeys together (00:37:39.488): become a possibility it’s one (00:37:42.029): of those hinge walls I find it very interesting that the question of monastery (00:37:49.366): is being asked more and more and more um i just need to like (00:37:54.629): for example someone i follow and know very well is as mary harrington uh podcasts in (00:38:02.774): the uk that’s the language that’s emerging there i was listening to certainly not (00:38:10.838): a christian by any means discussion of universities after ai (00:38:18.147): and the recognition that the university systems that we’ve created (00:38:21.650): as we know them have no future and what do we do with that and what I was hearing (00:38:28.874): from these people and these were let’s just call them secular academics is we need (00:38:33.978): to return to guess what the monasteries so there’s some sense that in the form (00:38:42.784): that they took our ways of being (00:38:48.335): in a culture that’s falling apart yes and and i would say (00:38:54.176): that i’m sorry go ahead no no i was just going to back up to the the question (00:39:00.118): of consumers choices and you mentioning that that’s not something we decide (00:39:04.699): to be consumers we’re formed into consumers and so from (00:39:08.960): the church’s perspective i mean this is not a solution but this is a suggestion (00:39:13.727): what if in the midst of this unraveling we stopped providing products to consume or (00:39:19.970): at least lessened the number of products that we were offering (00:39:24.452): and instead invited people into this way of life i mean i know that’s not (00:39:28.573): a solution necessarily but it could be a pathway for people what do you guys think (00:39:33.515): of that interrogate that for me go ahead luke oh man (00:39:41.967): that’s a difficult one you know i’m i’m at a larger church than gino and there’s (00:39:46.631): a sense that if we cease to offer those things we cease to have people yeah (00:39:52.576): and they will continue to be consumers (00:39:54.858): and they’ll they’ll just move down no no it’s not that they’ll continue (00:39:58.241): to be consumers you won’t get paid and you won’t have a job right which (00:40:03.025): the lord will do what the lord will do um but (00:40:07.195): you know i think in my community you know for to form an abbey it’s almost a sense (00:40:11.859): of you know not if we keep using this metaphor of monastery not every catholic (00:40:16.983): and medieval europe was part of the monastery exactly right right totally right uh (00:40:22.347): and so what does it look like to form sort of monastic ways of being within (00:40:26.971): the american church accepting that it will not be the totality of (00:40:30.734): the north american church it gets back to the old sodalities and modalities (00:40:36.520): there’s still something in there that’s worth paying attention to (00:40:41.103): absolutely so it’s not it’s not necessarily that that’s all we have (00:40:45.684): to do i was i’m not suggesting that i am saying though that if you are interested in (00:40:50.925): in something that might look more like a monastic community you’re gonna have (00:40:56.386): to make some some shifts because if people continue to look to you to be (00:41:00.886): the apest leader that al was avoiding talking about and i’m just kidding um then (00:41:06.407): then it’s uh a different kind of balance can we come for us (00:41:12.089): you have to change the way you talk and what you’re inviting people into and (00:41:17.651): so I know it’s an oversimplification but it is memorable to say one way (00:41:22.113): to stop having consumers is stop providing things to consume it’s one way (00:41:26.214): to do it I mean alongside of that and this always sounds (00:41:33.557): so bloody simplistic it’s I’m (00:41:38.800): Let’s say I was the pastor of a church. (00:41:42.120): I’m not here to change you, good or bad. (00:41:45.920): It’s not what I’m up to. (00:41:48.140): I’m here with you (00:41:50.420): to invite you into some practices (00:41:54): where we can discover perhaps (00:41:55.780): what God is doing. (00:41:57.080): Let’s give it a shot. (00:41:59.460): Secondly, (00:42:01.380): I’m Not In A Hurry (00:42:06.540): I ain’t going anywhere. (00:42:08.514): now that’s a pretty tough one to say but you know (00:42:14.859): it’s like that’s actually (00:42:18.222): the stance I take where I go to church I mean I’m not part of the leadership anymore (00:42:24.768): at any level but I’m there not to say well did they get (00:42:31.794): the flavor right this morning or could we improve not there, I’m there to say (00:42:36.957): who are the people I can friend and love and become a midwife with (00:42:42.279): and let’s see what might be emerging and you know what you’d be amazed (00:42:48.321): at what might be emerging and maybe more my age because I remember I was ready (00:42:55.543): to change the world but in the midst of that when I hear people (00:43:00.385): with their big plans yeah sure go ahead whatever but this is how God changes (00:43:06.547): the world (00:43:07.366): now the thing that most of us in north america don’t want to hear is that most of (00:43:13.450): the time the way god changes the world is five six hundred years (00:43:20.676): it’s not yeah (00:43:21.857): the six month plan or this kind of plan that’s right (00:43:28.834): well we are getting up against the time here but i know luke always likes (00:43:32.596): to ask someone this question at the end so and i know you’ll be ready for it al (00:43:37.638): so here you will this is a great question because it just makes my life better (00:43:41.960): in every respectable way what are you reading right now oh gosh i’m reading are you (00:43:50.644): ready i was born ready for this one (00:43:54.351): i was reading i’m reading michael allen gillespie’s the theological origins (00:43:59.012): of modernity wow (00:44:01.753): that sounds fun christopher smith’s why it became obsolete oh my god (00:44:08.394): the book i’m reading uh christopher bay has why i am not an atheist um (00:44:15.536): and what else i mean what else do you want to know i’m i’m reading um (00:44:23.647): all that sort of thing yeah well i’ll say no one gives (00:44:29.071): a reading list quite like you do and uh well that’s (00:44:35.156): a good thing oh i love your reading lists yeah yes (00:44:38.098): so i am i’m reading i just picked it up because i tend not to read novels (00:44:45.784): but um it’s called theo of um do you have golden theo of golden (00:44:54.147): somebody said you gotta read it and i picked it up last night and i’m loving it (00:45:01.291): and i’m going oh i mean i haven’t got into it very far so i may change my mind (00:45:07.095): but i’m going oh this is a wonderful primer in how to be in (00:45:11.397): a neighborhood there we go anyway uh i’m waiting for other books to arrive um yeah (00:45:23.767): what books are you reading right now oh man i am almost done (00:45:27.929): with frank machia’s jesus the spirit baptizer christology in light of pentecost (00:45:32.570): which is just an astounding work of theology and then i have just ordered uh (00:45:40.313): the right to sex and i cannot remember the author’s name for the life of me (00:45:45.075): the right to sex is that r-i-t-e or r-i-g-h-t r-i-g-h-t gino’s read it (00:45:50.978): before i have not (00:45:52.721): it’s a fantastic book it’s really difficult but not like (00:45:55.703): a difficult read just difficult content okay okay (00:45:59.086): an oxford philosophy professor talks about how pornography has shaped her students (00:46:04.510): and their understanding of sex and so she observes and writes (00:46:08.693): on what they’ve yeah what their experiences are it’s difficult gosh yeah i don’t (00:46:13.857): know that i’m looking forward to it but and (00:46:16.719): then my light summer read was project hill mary which again is a novel (00:46:20.201): but oh yeah yeah so good (00:46:22.548): a lot of people talk about that it’s (00:46:24.789): a great novel yeah i’m reading um i’m reading i think it’s called yesteryear (00:46:31.171): where it’s this novel about this trad wife who um creates a 18 something um farm and (00:46:44.255): of course videos everything she and her kids and everything (00:46:47.997): and got got all these followings and all of that and then (00:46:52.390): she’s a faithful evangelical or something and then wakes up one morning (00:46:56.775): and she’s literally back in that time and it ain’t romantic so (00:47:05.833): wow do you know what are you reading um i am i’m having an alistair mcintyre summer (00:47:11.138): so i am reading um right now i’m finishing up a read of after virtue and (00:47:17.004): then who’s justice which reality okay i’ll be reading next um reading a book (00:47:22.569): a newer book by freya india who is a oh yeah i know who she is yeah girls um (00:47:28.840): yeah having two gen z daughters and two gen z sons i’m going to read it and (00:47:35.784): then uh fact check the book with them after she’s a bright lady she’s (00:47:40.827): a very she is she really is yeah she really is so that it’s (00:47:44.689): an enjoyable read another difficult one but she’s a good writer so it’s it’s fun (00:47:48.851): to go through that’s fun (00:47:53.471): well we could probably talk about books literally all day between the three of us (00:47:58.652): but thank you for joining us on the podcast thank you for your work in (00:48:03.753): the program you i think have had a significant role not just in our cohort but (00:48:08.254): from everyone we’ve talked to in previous cohorts and there’s some significant work (00:48:12.815): that happens in the course that you teach and so on behalf of everyone i don’t know (00:48:17.836): if i can presume this but on behalf of everyone who’s come (00:48:20.337): before us almost thank you (00:48:22.220): almost everyone on behalf of almost everyone i get a poison panel every time (00:48:27.920): the cohort meets so (00:48:28.980): 90 percent (00:48:33.980): of the previous students will say um are thanking you and we’re part (00:48:38.620): that 90 thank you for your time it’s fun yeah well thank you thanks guys god’s peace This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

6. 

   24 Jun 2026

   Episode 08 - Shu-Ling Lee

   For Context: Bible and Context Interlude Episode # 08 🎙️ Episode Overview Key Takeaways & Discussion Highlights 1. The “Monoethnic but Multicultural” Church * The Toronto Context: Shu Ling describes his ministry context as a “mom-and-pop shop megachurch” serving roughly 4,000 attendees across three campuses. * The Cultural Shift: Over the last two decades, the church has navigated a distinct shift from early Hong Kong Cantonese-speaking immigrants to a growing wave of mainland China Mandarin-speaking immigrants, all while the English-speaking ministry assumes a major leadership role. * Beyond a Monolith: The episode highlights the insufficiency of the umbrella term “Asian-Canadian,” emphasizing that vast cultural, linguistic, and generational differences exist even within a single immigrant church body. 2. Deconstruction and Missional Megachurches * Peeling Back the Strategy: Heavily influenced by theologian David Fitch, Shu Ling discusses breaking out of standard evangelical strategic “bubbles” (such as following secular corporate growth models or the next “ministry guru”) to look for where God is already moving in local spaces. * Leading from the Margins: Rather than abandoning the megachurch after his doctoral work, Shu Ling chose to stay, acting as a subtle influence to help decentralize structures and make space for marginalized voices within the church framework. 3. Multi-Site Ministry vs. The “Cookie-Cutter” Approach * Instead of forcing multi-site campuses into an exact replica or video-venue clone of the “mothership,” Shu Ling advocates for maintaining core DNA while heavily contextualizing the ministry, ecclesiology, and leadership to match the specific neighborhood’s needs. Shu’s Current Reading List Looking for your next great read? Here are the books and authors highlighted in this week’s wind-down question: The Gods of More by Andrew Root: Evaluating the modern church’s entrapment in endless growth cycles and the desire for “more.”Culture Matters by Jenny Catron: Navigating organizational values and team clarity in a changing cultural landscape. For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) New Doctorate in Contextual Theology Cohort Starting in June 2027! If you are interested in studying at Northern Seminary and learning from the likes of Drs. David Fitch, Jonathan Tran, Cindy Westfall, and many more, reach out to Gino: gcurcuruto@seminary.edu (mailto:gcurcuruto@seminary.edu) for more information. Transcript (00:00:10.958): I’m Gino Curcuruto I’m Luke Stare And you’re listening to For Context A podcast (00:00:17.688): about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology. (00:00:24.705): Hey everybody on this episode of For Context we have Shu Ling Lee who was in the (00:00:30.846): program a few years ago but he is pastoring up at a church in the Toronto area and (00:00:36.447): we have a great conversation about his context the dynamics of Chinese church in (00:00:41.528): Canada and his work and ministry there Welcome back to For Context I’m Gino and (00:00:49.310): Luke is here Hey (00:00:51.432): All right. (00:00:51.872): I always get Luke to do that every time, (00:00:53.933): just telling people that he’s here and then they make him make some kind of (00:00:57.114): guttural noise. (00:00:57.994): It’s excellent. (00:00:59.815): Fitch says we don’t have a radio presence and we’re just proving that week after week. (00:01:04.316): We really are. (00:01:05.697): But maybe today will be better. (00:01:07.077): We are excited to have our guest, (00:01:09.758): my friend, (00:01:10.859): a pastor in and a graduate of this program, (00:01:14.100): Shu Ling Lee is here with us. (00:01:16.320): Xu, thanks for being on For Context for taking some time to be with us. (00:01:21.830): Thanks for having me, guys. (00:01:22.751): Glad to be here. (00:01:23.571): Yeah, we’re excited to have you. (00:01:27.014): I can see your hat. (00:01:28.115): Our listeners won’t be able to, (00:01:29.156): but I’m guessing based on your hat, (00:01:30.396): you’re from the Toronto area. (00:01:32.678): Yes, sir. (00:01:33.138): Toronto Blue Jays hat on. (00:01:35.500): So Shu, (00:01:36.161): tell us a little bit about your context, (00:01:37.982): your church, (00:01:38.502): your ministry, (00:01:39.463): you, (00:01:41.905): where you are, (00:01:42.385): what you’re doing. (00:01:43.927): Oh, man. (00:01:45.268): Yeah. (00:01:46.514): All right, so I am from the greater Toronto area. (00:01:51.995): I live in a suburb called Markham, (00:01:55.196): and I work in another suburb adjacent called Richmond Hill, (00:01:59.176): and the church that I currently serve in is Richmond Hill Christian Community (00:02:03.217): Church, (00:02:04.157): and it’s actually where a lot of my doctoral work focused on in terms of the (00:02:09.878): specific location and area. (00:02:12.799): Our area is... (00:02:15.510): I like to joke around at times I call it like new Hong Kong or like now it’s (00:02:20.497): becoming I guess new China a little bit a lot of more mainland China immigrants are (00:02:24.944): coming in but yeah this area well let’s just say Canada in general Canada (00:02:30.552): is a place where there’s trying to be multicultural, (00:02:35.759): trying to be a place where people can practice their religion and culture in their (00:02:40.706): own pockets of area very freely. (00:02:42.809): So in our area, it’s very much... (00:02:45.613): Chinese predominantly. (00:02:47.274): Of course, it’s a mix of a lot of different ethnicities as well. (00:02:50.297): But overall, (00:02:51.557): there’s just a lot of Chinese people walking around this area or driving around (00:02:55.140): this area. (00:02:56.041): We don’t walk, I guess, in Texas too, Luke. (00:02:58.142): I know it’s hard to walk around. (00:03:00.104): Yeah, we are a commuter, a commuter culture. (00:03:04.187): And that was actually part of some of my work as well that I had to look into. (00:03:07.849): And (00:03:09.071): Yeah, overall it’s been interesting. (00:03:11.657): I’ve been at this church now, we call it RH3C, for... (00:03:17.493): Over 20 years and I played many different roles and actually through this program (00:03:25.915): at Northern through the demon program I actually helped to like we used to plant a (00:03:32.797): lot of churches and then we have switched now to multi-site campus planting try not (00:03:39.378): to do it in a typical way where it’s only cookie cutter but trying to see what that (00:03:43.859): kind of contextual feel will look like a bit more but (00:03:47.220): Of course there’s many different people at the table but God kind of nudged me in I (00:03:55.389): guess now it’s been a year and a half through a bunch of different people at our (00:03:59.314): church to consider taking on the executive pastor position (00:04:03.848): And it’s not something I think I originally wanted to do. (00:04:08.330): But the more that me and my wife prayed about it, we thought, okay, this is the season for this. (00:04:14.632): And I’ve always seen kind of launching multi-site ministry as just kind of a (00:04:21.535): stepping stone towards church planting and seeing where that comes about. (00:04:25.077): And (00:04:26.110): If I could help using whatever meager gifts that I have to help organize our church (00:04:31.413): better and do that, (00:04:33.094): organize our teams and build some values, (00:04:36.316): maybe I could influence our church in a certain direction. (00:04:38.898): And I guess I should also mention our church is about 4,000 people. (00:04:44.822): So I like to affectionately call it a mom and pop shop megachurch. (00:04:50.385): Yeah. (00:04:51.126): Is that across the three campuses that... (00:04:54.569): Yeah, basically, overall, it’s about 4,000 on a Sunday attendance, at least. (00:05:00.172): And we, (00:05:01.833): yeah, (00:05:02.333): we, (00:05:03.314): a lot of Asian churches have a bad rep. (00:05:06.395): You know, (00:05:07.656): it’s not just Asian churches, (00:05:08.636): but in particular, (00:05:10.437): tends to split, (00:05:11.558): so it never grows that big. (00:05:13.839): So our church, (00:05:15.480): somehow, (00:05:15.900): by God’s grace, (00:05:16.600): I think, (00:05:17.121): just did not split and has gotten to a certain size and with all of its (00:05:22.723): ramifications. (00:05:25.093): Well, (00:05:25.434): one of the things you talked about that I think is interesting, (00:05:27.594): I’ve spent a very small amount of time in the Toronto area, (00:05:30.355): but talking to church leaders there, (00:05:31.836): especially in the Asian church, (00:05:34.117): what has it been like as your church’s area has moved from being like a little Hong (00:05:38.478): Kong to more, (00:05:39.759): you know, (00:05:39.979): with a Cantonese kind of more linguistic framework to a more mainland China, (00:05:45.121): Mandarin, (00:05:46.441): I’m guessing, (00:05:47.362): framework and culture? (00:05:50.324): It has definitely been an interesting shift because, (00:05:55.628): if I’ll say it this way, (00:05:56.969): the Hong Kong Cantonese-speaking immigrants, (00:05:59.651): when they came over, (00:06:00.852): the English ministries that had to develop, (00:06:02.814): because the main language is English in the area, (00:06:06.537): that English-speaking group congregation that’s within this Chinese (00:06:10.500): It’s kind of like the babysitting service, right? (00:06:12.884): You’re just kind of babysitting for these adults, these immigrants who came over. (00:06:17.470): And then this English group starts growing and it’s like, oh, wait, we should be involved too. (00:06:24.240): And what does it mean for us to be part of this church? (00:06:27.203): But because Chinese culture is quite patriarchal in general there is this kind of (00:06:33.689): okay just listen to dad or listen to grandpa you know because this is what you got (00:06:37.431): to do so in the end that’s why I would say there’s some of these church splits that (00:06:41.435): happen or these people that just leave the church there’s a silent exodus in (00:06:46.018): Chinese immigrant culture (00:06:48.407): And they just leave without saying anything because they don’t want to cause any (00:06:51.089): stink because you should be good to the family, (00:06:54.051): collectivist kind of mentality. (00:06:58.053): But what ends up happening in our context if the English now, (00:07:02.416): we’re finally starting to see some churches where the English is becoming the (00:07:06.659): leaders of the church. (00:07:07.940): There’s more of a majority coming on that. (00:07:10.861): And even in our context, even while I’m in this position, by all means, I’m 43 now. (00:07:17.671): And I think in, (00:07:18.591): I don’t know, (00:07:20.212): other churches, (00:07:20.832): Western churches, (00:07:21.972): 43 is not that young, (00:07:23.973): but I could still be seen as a young’un, (00:07:26.974): right, (00:07:27.614): for the longest time. (00:07:29.314): So, but our lead pastor currently for our whole church is English-speaking. (00:07:35.416): And actually, (00:07:35.896): it’s funny, (00:07:36.316): both of us, (00:07:37.136): his name is Ho Ming, (00:07:38.057): my name is Shu Ling, (00:07:39.297): and yet the rest of our staff have English names, (00:07:41.398): but we have Chinese names, (00:07:42.498): go figure. (00:07:43.918): But with that, (00:07:45.679): just to kind of get to your question With the Cantonese speaking immigrants who (00:07:50.382): first started this church And then the English now kind of leading Now you have (00:07:53.824): this other group as well So we have three languages in our church Cantonese, (00:07:57.946): English, (00:07:58.267): Mandarin We even see our youth and children as another group demographic But with (00:08:04.990): now English taking the lead of a few things Even though the Cantonese is still the (00:08:09.013): biggest group (00:08:10.363): We have this emerging Mandarin group That is a different culture Like Mandarin (00:08:16.407): speaking And from China Is very different than even the Hong Kong British colonized (00:08:22.811): group Cantonese speaking group So we’re in this weird situation Where it’s like (00:08:28.235): These guys are immigrating in Trying to be part of a Chinese Almost Cantonese (00:08:32.918): speaking group They’re trying to join that But it’s like they have their own (00:08:36.280): Mandarin speaking group But if English is leading the charge (00:08:40.687): we look culturally very different than they do so I like to say in our Chinese (00:08:45.752): church context we are pretty multicultural even amongst in our group and we’re like (00:08:50.556): a lot of the lessons we learn we just are able to kind of navigate when we engage (00:08:55.961): non-Chinese as well like we’re like and (00:08:58.323): What’s been cool recently, (00:08:59.585): too, (00:08:59.885): has been our next biggest group in our area are Persian-Iranians. (00:09:05.152): And there’s a Persian-Iranian fellowship group now that feel more comfortable in a (00:09:09.678): Chinese church than in a quote-unquote multicultural church. (00:09:13.843): Or if I were just to say, well, sometimes I... (00:09:17.700): Well, it depends. (00:09:18.580): I don’t know. (00:09:21.742): Caucasian man leading that multicultural group, it’s going to be in that direction. (00:09:27.164): But some of them feel more comfortable in a more immigrant-based church. (00:09:31.946): So that’s been the navigation of it all, (00:09:34.868): trying to learn what it means to be multicultural, (00:09:38.529): intercultural in that way. (00:09:41.670): One of my friends pastors Montreal Chinese Baptist Church and the way he describes (00:09:46.331): his church is that it’s monoethnic but multicultural which I think is a you know (00:09:50.432): I’m coming from a very different context and so I think for most people who aren’t (00:09:54.494): familiar with Asian church and Chinese churches I think it’s easy to think oh it’s (00:09:59.135): all the same but really there’s such cultural differences between these groups so (00:10:05.136): I’ve dominated the question so I’m going to turn it back to you (00:10:09.238): I was just thinking that you just give a really good personal storytelling example (00:10:15.565): of how insufficient the term Asian is. (00:10:20.248): that like there there isn’t it isn’t a race and there there isn’t like an Asian (00:10:25.613): Canadian is not one context not monolithic much less an Asian American or anything (00:10:33.339): so thank you just for that insight I’m curious about a lot of things I mean I don’t (00:10:38.223): want to move away from what you just shared that’s really really helpful but I’m (00:10:42.867): wondering about your like your project when did you when did when were you in the (00:10:47.130): program you were you were a little while back right (00:10:50.922): yeah i think i would man you’re making me have to remember this no you don’t have (00:10:55.285): to give us the dates or anything but i think it was like 2017 i started or (00:11:01.628): something that 2017 yeah graduated it was called contextual theology then luke and (00:11:06.631): i are learning no it was it was missional leadership like so i’ll tell you guys the (00:11:11.774): only reason why i went down this program was because (00:11:14.576): Fitch came to this kind of theology pub, (00:11:16.838): which is already kind of, (00:11:17.779): ooh, (00:11:18.399): you know, (00:11:18.679): a theology pub, (00:11:19.680): you know, (00:11:20.021): downtown. (00:11:20.561): Edgy. (00:11:21.142): And then, yeah, so edgy in our area, right? (00:11:23.384): But then we went to hear him. (00:11:25.466): He was debating another, you know, kind of reformed dude. (00:11:28.168): I can’t remember his name. (00:11:29.570): And then when I... Yeah, of course. (00:11:32.292): Yeah. (00:11:33.834): And then he was... (00:11:35.708): A lot of the things that he was saying were very thought-provoking. (00:11:38.749): My brother at the time was, (00:11:39.990): I think, (00:11:40.250): part of the emerging church movement, (00:11:43.291): kind of reading a lot of their material. (00:11:44.851): And he’s like, hey, you should check out some of David Fitch. (00:11:47.092): And I was reading some of it. (00:11:47.833): I was like, oh, this is very provocative stuff. (00:11:49.753): And I want to kind of read more into it. (00:11:51.594): And at the time, I believe like our... (00:11:55.340): Our English-speaking side had a very lack of missional fervor, missional identity. (00:12:00.404): And what we were doing was just, (00:12:01.765): oh yeah, (00:12:02.065): we do these revival meetings to get people saved, (00:12:04.007): just like our Cantonese parents and stuff we’re doing. (00:12:07.730): So what does that look like for us? (00:12:09.051): And we don’t do revival meetings anymore. (00:12:10.632): What does that look like? (00:12:12.213): And yeah, so at that time, it’s listening to Fitch. (00:12:14.635): It’s like, oh, this is interesting. (00:12:15.956): Okay, let’s check out this program. (00:12:17.477): Let’s see what it’s about. (00:12:18.398): And (00:12:19.684): Then, (00:12:20.385): oh man, (00:12:20.845): my brain just got blasted to oblivion, (00:12:23.347): you know, (00:12:23.587): listening to Fitch and being, (00:12:25.448): yeah, (00:12:25.748): challenged in a lot of ways I don’t think I ever was in any context I’ve been in. (00:12:30.892): Wow. (00:12:31.312): Wow. (00:12:31.572): Do you remember a particular class seminar that was impactful for you? (00:12:37.716): I mean, (00:12:37.917): if you’re getting blasted all over the place, (00:12:40.478): was there a point where it was kind of like maybe coming together for you? (00:12:44.401): Well, yeah. (00:12:46.347): I don’t know, (00:12:47.048): maybe for you guys, (00:12:47.669): for the listeners, (00:12:48.550): like you might be coming to some other place. (00:12:50.333): I grew up in this kind of evangelical bubble where you just did church in a particular way. (00:12:56.241): And of course, in our Chinese church side, and I talk about this in some of... (00:13:01.608): my thesis, (00:13:02.309): but we were super impacted by Billy Graham, (00:13:06.232): by whatever’s the popular Christian reading culture at the time. (00:13:11.536): So a lot of our influence came from whatever was free, (00:13:14.138): John Piper, (00:13:15.379): Desiring God, (00:13:16.820): Gospel Coalition, (00:13:18.161): Mark Driscoll. (00:13:18.921): A lot of these things were impacting us at the time. (00:13:21.904): So it’s coming into Fitch’s work where he was able to go (00:13:27.056): Well, (00:13:27.877): let’s peel back the layer here, (00:13:29.439): not just because of reform theology or reform thinking, (00:13:32.564): but if evangelicalism is doing church in this way, (00:13:37.050): is this actually engaging, (00:13:39.474): you know, (00:13:40.275): are we actually following Christ? (00:13:43.678): What are we doing? (00:13:44.579): Are we just doing it by our own power, our own strategies? (00:13:48.102): I’m in a large church. (00:13:48.922): I’m already getting ripped apart. (00:13:50.723): Actually, in my class, people kept making fun of me. (00:13:52.465): It’s like, oh, that’s megachurch shoe. (00:13:55.026): That’s my context. (00:13:56.447): I’m like, yeah, I’m eating this stuff up. (00:13:59.550): I’m trying to see, is it just because of our strategies following Rick Warren or Bill Hybels? (00:14:05.554): We’re trying to follow the next guru. (00:14:07.075): Is the next (00:14:09.686): Fitch’s work really peeled back the layers to help see, (00:14:13.228): well, (00:14:13.368): are we actually following in what God is doing already? (00:14:15.369): You know, what is God doing in our neighborhoods? (00:14:18.291): Are we joining in what he’s already doing? (00:14:19.932): And I think (00:14:37.862): Part of that was a big realization, wait, why am I trying to control all these things? (00:14:43.446): How are we being better at discerning God’s presence and what he’s already doing here? (00:14:48.689): How can we join in? (00:14:50.550): And that takes a lot of humility. (00:14:53.352): And in a larger church strategic world, (00:14:59.636): you’re just trying to go to the next thing or be more attractive or getting the (00:15:04.079): next cool thing going. (00:15:05.760): And that’s a lot of stuff where I... (00:15:08.207): I really resonated with, (00:15:09.608): I’m like, (00:15:09.988): you know, (00:15:10.448): I don’t think it’s about finding the next cool thing so that we can attract people (00:15:15.310): to because if anything, (00:15:16.831): what I realized is what you win people with is what they’re going to start trying (00:15:20.553): to win other people with. (00:15:22.094): And does that look more faithful to following Christ in everyday life? (00:15:25.935): Does that look like being the church that we’re supposed to be? (00:15:30.037): And that was at least one of the first formative things that Fitch started breaking (00:15:34.800): open in my mind. (00:15:35.664): Well, one follow-up before maybe I let Luke back into the conversation. (00:15:39.285): No, Luke is listening intently, everyone. (00:15:42.827): Was there a crisis moment for you in this? (00:15:45.087): Because you’re still in a megachurch, and I think that’s a really important and good thing. (00:15:52.570): I’m not coming into this as a critic. (00:15:55.071): You didn’t leave. (00:15:56.211): This didn’t deconstruct you in such a way where you’re like, (00:15:59.232): no, (00:15:59.412): we’re going to just go start a group around a table and call that my job. (00:16:05.436): Yeah, here it is. (00:16:08.759): No, that’s a very good question. (00:16:10.801): No, I am still deconstructing. (00:16:12.582): Okay. (00:16:13.503): I just, (00:16:14.904): I think personally, (00:16:17.287): I’ve just felt God hasn’t given me the, (00:16:20.430): hey, (00:16:20.630): it’s time to move on or whatnot. (00:16:23.853): There has been something still happening (00:16:26.437): For Context for Context for Context (00:16:41.158): What does it look like to engage our discipleship more seriously than just going to (00:16:49.620): some kind of class or going through only this one-on-one class or whatever kind of (00:16:56.082): thing? (00:16:56.262): But what does it look like to truly love people in our neighborhood and to hear (00:16:59.843): what God is doing? (00:17:00.723): And there is an openness to it. (00:17:03.713): Now I’m going to throw Fitch under the bus Fitch was like You know what Shu? (00:17:11.618): You know Shu? (00:17:14.539): I’m trying to do his Stanley Haroist Shu, (00:17:19.382): now that you’re in this position Use their money, (00:17:22.344): man Use their resources And test things out I was like, (00:17:27.727): yeah man I don’t have a (00:17:33.463): This is kind of where God has placed me and there is some people that I’m still (00:17:38.072): living life with around the table. (00:17:40.337): And part of even launching some of this multi-site ministry has been (00:17:44.323): Well, (00:17:44.544): it’s been part of my efforts in terms of how I got to influence how some of that (00:17:49.288): looked like. (00:17:50.349): I’ve used some of Fitch’s ways of thinking through the three tables. (00:17:55.113): Thinking through how to engage not just on a Sunday, (00:17:58.395): but at our tables in our lives and at the world’s table. (00:18:01.618): What does that look like? (00:18:03.600): And it’s given... (00:18:05.581): I think an expanded way to follow Jesus in the neighborhood for our people. (00:18:12.805): And there has been some reciprocal things at our church that have given me enough (00:18:16.607): to go, (00:18:16.967): okay, (00:18:18.228): God, (00:18:18.608): if you’re still putting me here, (00:18:19.829): then I’ll do this. (00:18:21.110): And to some degree, (00:18:22.911): which has been kind of really weird, (00:18:24.211): guys, (00:18:24.872): I am doing, (00:18:26.353): if I’m doing this executive pastor position, (00:18:27.873): I see myself times, (00:18:28.834): this is my bivocational ministry right now. (00:18:31.569): I’m kind of doing the executive pastor thing 9 to 5 and then evenings and the (00:18:37.352): weekends I’m kind of helping with my campus site and I’m trying to expand what that (00:18:42.735): looks like for them and that’s kind of my bivocational ministry right now in the (00:18:48.237): neighborhood (00:18:50.297): I think of a lot of times the people that feel like they have this like great idea (00:18:56.201): for starting a new church around the table. (00:18:59.023): They’re going to be pure and do it like the right way, quote unquote, and they have no people. (00:19:05.390): And then there’s, (00:19:06.110): but they might be the, (00:19:07.111): and I might be in that group, (00:19:08.472): you know, (00:19:08.732): I might be from that group and casting stones at the larger churches that they’re (00:19:13.154): doing it wrong. (00:19:13.474): You’ve never done that, Gino. (00:19:14.635): What are you talking about? (00:19:16.376): I haven’t. (00:19:17.657): Not today, at least. (00:19:18.757): And I think that the thing that I love about this, (00:19:22.239): there’s so many things that I love about what you’re saying, (00:19:23.880): but it’s like, (00:19:24.580): there are people and God loves those people too, (00:19:28.202): in those large churches. (00:19:30.163): And your expression of like, not (00:19:33.885): releasing your not leaving just because you got a new idea, (00:19:37.228): but loving them because you’re called to be there. (00:19:40.030): It’s just so beautiful. (00:19:41.250): I think I need to be the one to just make sure that I say that so people don’t (00:19:44.433): think like Luke does about me. (00:19:49.076): No, I appreciate that. (00:19:50.478): I think there’s, like, there’s so much to critique in what we’re influenced by. (00:19:55.385): Heck, I’m reading right now, or audiobook right now, The Gods of More by Andrew Root. (00:20:02.235): And there’s certain... (00:20:04.058): So, you know, it’s written to us, right? (00:20:07.259): It’s written to the people in the larger churches. (00:20:09.639): And it’s like, (00:20:10.140): you’re going through this growth cycle and trying to thinking, (00:20:13.180): oh, (00:20:13.400): are we doing this because God wants it? (00:20:15.041): Or because we’re just trapped in the cycle of wanting more, (00:20:18.142): being more creative and thinking these things will be, (00:20:20.162): you know, (00:20:21.182): solving the issue of, (00:20:22.463): you know, (00:20:23.603): of following, (00:20:24.623): oh, (00:20:24.843): these people don’t know Christ yet or they don’t know. (00:20:26.544): So we’ll do more creative things and just get more. (00:20:29.084): And the cycle just continues to be perpetuated. (00:20:31.825): But what does it look like to be sacrificially following Christ in the neighborhood? (00:20:36.227): At the table, (00:20:36.827): like you were saying, (00:20:37.928): it could be, (00:20:38.848): and I’ve talked to some of my peers who are not in a large church and who are (00:20:42.830): trying some of these things, (00:20:44.190): it could look fruitless. (00:20:46.852): It could be like you’re banging your head against the wall, (00:20:49.533): but at times I’m like, (00:20:51.153): but that could be faithful, (00:20:52.114): just being patiently with that group. (00:20:55.035): But then at the same time, (00:20:56.236): I’m also like, (00:20:56.856): I see the other side where I’m trying to be patient with this large sucker (00:21:03.398): How do I walk with these people and they may not be in the smaller setting but (00:21:09.740): they’re in a larger setting they’re influenced by the world influenced by tradition (00:21:15.102): of where our church and this kind of sometimes over glamorized way of seeing what (00:21:20.303): church is and I’m trying to say hey let’s go beyond this and try to see what has (00:21:26.225): God called us to do and how do we actually be faithful in the midst of that and (00:21:31.865): I think both processes are hard. (00:21:33.607): Yes, absolutely. (00:21:34.367): To be honest. (00:21:36.029): Well, Shu, you are speaking my language as a fellow. (00:21:40.493): I mean, technically my church is a megachurch, but it’s one third the size of yours. (00:21:46.498): So how do you make... (00:21:49.938): Studied as a contextual theologian, (00:21:51.739): even though technically it was missional leadership at the time. (00:21:54.601): I got both. (00:21:55.941): I got both in there. (00:21:57.002): Yeah, I got to be missional leadership contextual theologian. (00:21:59.443): You’re a missionally leading contextual theologian. (00:22:04.286): In this megachurch context, (00:22:05.987): which I think statistically is anything over 1,000 people is what’s defined as a (00:22:09.769): megachurch. (00:22:10.270): I could be wrong on those stats. (00:22:12.311): Yeah. (00:22:13.127): sounds like for Canada but for the US it’s more or something for the US I think (00:22:17.317): it’s a thousand for Canada I think that threshold lowers yeah (00:22:21.356): But how do you bridge this? (00:22:23.337): How do you bring in these conversations about contextual theology into the large (00:22:28.281): church context, (00:22:29.922): which generally is not a contextually oriented organism? (00:22:36.387): Because eventually your church hits a size where it just has a certain gravity that (00:22:40.790): it thinks it can ignore context. (00:22:45.633): So how do you, as a contextual theologian, missional leader, whatever you want to call yourself, (00:22:51.403): Start to kind of seed those ideas Live those things out In your context In your day (00:22:56.449): job So one thing That’s a great question by the way Luke I think I’m asking for (00:23:03.537): myself This is a very selfish question One thing I think (00:23:08.923): that are, (00:23:10.044): at least in the Chinese church, (00:23:11.585): Chinese immigrant church, (00:23:12.566): that has a kind of built-in contextual talk. (00:23:16.289): Like we are, (00:23:17.070): we cannot only, (00:23:18.892): you know, (00:23:19.192): in a megachurch, (00:23:20.013): usually it’s streamline the message and get alignment. (00:23:24.096): Everyone has to do this and it has to be, (00:23:25.798): you know, (00:23:26.078): almost cookie cutter or franchise, (00:23:28.040): franchise way, (00:23:28.640): all this kind of stuff. (00:23:30.062): In the Chinese church, (00:23:31.144): you are aching over and over and over to contextualize language, (00:23:36.735): framework, (00:23:37.276): direction to these different people groups (00:23:40.856): And I think it’s just we labor so hard to do that. (00:23:43.117): That’s already within what already we do. (00:23:46.278): In my thesis, (00:23:47.758): one of the things that I tried to bring to the attention, (00:23:50.279): well, (00:23:50.759): and this was from Chinese church to the universal church, (00:23:56.461): but the Chinese church, (00:23:58.002): what it has to offer, (00:23:58.982): I think, (00:23:59.342): to the world to some degree, (00:24:02.023): I quote my thesis supervisor, (00:24:04.524): Amos Yong, (00:24:05.964): He wrote a book called The Future of Evangelical Church and he looked at various (00:24:10.488): soundings from the Chinese diaspora in North America and he was talking about how (00:24:17.274): we need to think through what a minority report from those disenfranchised voices (00:24:24.681): can contribute to the bigger picture (00:24:27.511): And I think in the Chinese church, (00:24:29.212): we at times, (00:24:30.052): many times have this built-in framework where the English was speaking into the (00:24:34.214): Cantonese and now the Mandarin is speaking into the English, (00:24:37.595): all these kinds of things that are happening all at the same time. (00:24:41.037): We just, (00:24:42.197): for the sake of even just staying together, (00:24:44.618): have to be contextual to how do we listen to each other? (00:24:48.240): How do we create space to not just power over someone? (00:24:52.802): And (00:24:53.828): It’s been an interesting space now that the Western side of leadership is in (00:24:57.492): approach because sometimes Western leadership can try to flatten leadership, (00:25:01.716): at least try to, (00:25:02.637): hopefully not just CEO-style leadership, (00:25:05.179): but flatten leadership a bit. (00:25:07.762): But how do we talk to each other at the table? (00:25:09.784): How do we discern what the spirit is telling us together? (00:25:13.347): And I think... (00:25:15.305): At least in my context, (00:25:16.826): it’s been like a way that I think has been helpful is that minority report coming (00:25:21.489): from, (00:25:21.729): hey, (00:25:22.790): are we listening to some of the grumblings or complaints? (00:25:26.171): Are we listening to some of the people talking in this way? (00:25:28.993): And can we talk through it? (00:25:30.314): Can we still have space for that, provide space to have those conversations? (00:25:34.076): And even at our sheer size, (00:25:36.765): We still do. (00:25:37.846): We still have those conversations. (00:25:40.147): And it’s not systematic, (00:25:42.389): but it’s like in various places, (00:25:44.790): we’re still having these conversations. (00:25:47.092): And probably why I still stay here is because we do. (00:25:50.614): We still practice that kind of contextual process listening so that we can see, (00:25:58.159): hey, (00:25:58.299): what’s going on here? (00:25:59.140): But (00:26:00.107): Theologically is a different story, I’ll be honest. (00:26:03.248): Of course, (00:26:03.988): we skew to a certain direction theologically, (00:26:06.808): but the conversations, (00:26:09.209): for example, (00:26:09.749): even now having a campus site, (00:26:12.449): I can have conversations with people about what is church, (00:26:16.350): about what is this different kind of ecclesiology, (00:26:19.050): trying to bring in these different perspectives, (00:26:21.291): and there’s more space to talk about those things. (00:26:23.971): And I think just part of my job... (00:26:29.191): at the church, (00:26:29.652): what I’ve tried to do is to be a subtle influence to decentralize the church to (00:26:34.856): have those conversations. (00:26:36.817): And that’s part of the, (00:26:37.858): you know, (00:26:38.138): I think some people think multi-site campus, (00:26:41.661): you know, (00:26:41.901): planting is planting a church that just looks like the mothership or just plays a (00:26:47.806): video or whatnot. (00:26:49.547): And for me, I’m like more, no, we have the DNA of what we want to kind of to birth out. (00:26:56.393): But (00:26:57.232): We should be contextualizing what that looks like to engage that area and to have (00:27:01.374): conversations and build up new leaders, (00:27:04.135): build up people and have different conversations at the table. (00:27:07.657): I think that’s my hope for some of that. (00:27:11.058): So Shu, (00:27:11.639): because there’s this, (00:27:12.619): it sounds like there’s this built in because of the people that make up the church. (00:27:18.262): There’s this built in practice of listening to the quote unquote other, (00:27:23.944): you know, (00:27:24.344): and listening to the other voice. (00:27:26.445): What you were describing as a contextual understanding of leadership and all that. (00:27:32.226): Then I hear you say that even in the way that you’re doing the multi-site, (00:27:36.267): that there’s now this opportunity to leverage the same kind of listening to other (00:27:44.549): voices that you do relationally and probably keeps you guys from having a split (00:27:49.030): anyway. (00:27:49.710): You do that to talk about (00:27:51.650): Methodology, ecclesiology and structure. (00:27:54.793): What is the church? (00:27:57.394): Am I tracking with you on that? (00:27:59.676): Yeah. (00:28:01.177): It’s like the... (00:28:03.164): Sure, there’s formal sides to the table. (00:28:07.847): If I didn’t mention before, we follow in Rick Warren’s purpose-driven tenets. (00:28:12.730): That’s where some of our tradition comes out of. (00:28:14.571): Our church grew because it hit a baby boomer population that really gravitated (00:28:19.314): towards that, (00:28:19.694): translated that into Chinese, (00:28:20.835): and they ate it up. (00:28:22.435): They ate it up. (00:28:23.036): But then now this next generation is like, (00:28:25.748): This doesn’t relate to me at all. (00:28:27.690): What does it look like? (00:28:28.711): Who cares about this five purpose stuff? (00:28:32.314): Whatever. (00:28:33.315): But what does it truly mean to follow Christ in where we’re placed, where we’re at? (00:28:39.922): Us, like part of, you know, my job as a leader was getting them to ask that question. (00:28:44.886): What does that look like? (00:28:45.826): How do you do that together? (00:28:47.107): How are you going to pray and discern about that being led by the Spirit together? (00:28:51.270): And it’s been, (00:28:53.291): like, (00:28:53.672): to even have space to talk about that versus, (00:28:57.294): oh, (00:28:57.394): wait, (00:28:57.835): our megachurch has a slogan and this is what you do and we’re all about this, (00:29:01.918): so make sure, (00:29:02.518): just repeat that and, (00:29:04.139): you know, (00:29:04.579): go with it. (00:29:05.080): I’m like, (00:29:06.442): I’m glad our church hasn’t got to that point, (00:29:09.365): though, (00:29:09.905): of course, (00:29:10.245): we do have our own way to communicate what our church is about. (00:29:14.228): But there has been openness to talk through those things in various levels. (00:29:19.433): And that’s kind of why I appreciate still being in the space of it. (00:29:22.835): That’s great. (00:29:23.656): Luke, do you have any follow up? (00:29:24.697): Did he answer the question for the way that you did? (00:29:27.339): Yes. (00:29:28): Yes. (00:29:29.263): Well done. (00:29:30.425): You know, I think, you know, you talked about you’re reading Andrew Root’s book. (00:29:35.331): What else is on your reading list right now? (00:29:36.792): This is kind of always a fun wind down question. (00:29:39.776): Gino and I always come away, I think, with a new thing to read. (00:29:43.801): Yes. (00:29:45.718): Oh man, (00:29:46.539): so okay, (00:29:47.619): then here’s the anti-contextual theology stuff that I can tell you what I’m (00:29:51.621): reading, (00:29:51.862): but as I’m trying to help our church be on the same page to some degree, (00:29:58.626): it’s to kind of revisit our values as a church, (00:30:02.027): and a lot of times, (00:30:04.349): and I have a staff of like 70, (00:30:06.690): 80, (00:30:07.531): and I guess I’m like the XO a bit at the church, (00:30:10.753): I have to kind of (00:30:13.206): How do you get the troops together to move forward? (00:30:17.709): And thinking about that is just how do we... (00:30:19.831): So we’ve had to re-clarify our values. (00:30:22.954): So our founding pastor, by the way, he retired seven years ago. (00:30:28.118): And we’ve only now have kind of gotten to a point where we can start taking steps. (00:30:34.403): Because the founding pastors... (00:30:37.113): Kind of leadership was so strong and he’s been involved in other ways And actually (00:30:41.576): our staff has almost completely turned over from the old guard to the new So we’re (00:30:46.960): in a place, (00:30:47.641): again, (00:30:47.901): this is probably why I’m here too That we’re able to influence and kind of go in a (00:30:53.185): certain direction and create culture What does that look like to kind of revisit (00:30:57.568): your vision and values at the church? (00:31:01.990): What does it look like to do that? (00:31:04.193): So some of the books that I’m looking at, (00:31:06.337): there’s a book called Culture Matters by a lady named Jenny Catron that she’s (00:31:12.446): written. (00:31:12.746): She was like an executive in the CCM days. (00:31:17.012): For Context (00:31:32.894): That’s a book that’s been on my docket right now. (00:31:41.018): But if you want to go on the contextual theology route, let me share with you one thing. (00:31:45.560): And I don’t know, Luke, you went through the demon program, right? (00:31:48.982): We’re both current students. (00:31:50.203): Oh, you’re both current students. (00:31:51.523): Okay. (00:31:52.624): And after Fitch’s program, after the demon program, I did not read a book for a few years. (00:31:59.748): Okay. (00:32:02.717): I did not read a book for a few years and it’s only like now I’m back into a full (00:32:09.483): swing where I’m like okay now it’s time to kind of read and think through certain (00:32:13.626): things like again but (00:32:17.025): I’ve used a lot of my materials that I was influenced by, (00:32:22.329): like the cultural analysis piece by Andrew Root, (00:32:25.831): any of his kind of whatever in the congregation, (00:32:29.213): the secular age in the congregation, (00:32:31.715): in the pastor, (00:32:32.375): that has been fantastic. (00:32:33.996): material, (00:32:35.737): reading some of Nije Gupta’s material recently in terms of his work on the Apostle (00:32:42.900): Paul. (00:32:43.881): A lot of my influence for my thesis came from Scott McKnight, (00:32:48.282): and a lot of his material was helpful for me to re-understand. (00:32:51.804): I didn’t even talk about the gospel. (00:32:52.985): That was a lot of stuff that I was critiquing in my church context, by the way. (00:32:56.366): But yeah, a lot of Scott’s books helped on that end. (00:33:00.168): But (00:33:01.509): I think recently where, (00:33:03.390): and I think I heard from some of your other, (00:33:04.970): I was listening to some of your other podcast interviews, (00:33:09.011): AI I think is coming in big right now and trying to wrestle with what that means (00:33:15.173): for us in a world where people are like, (00:33:17.633): when I’m preaching, (00:33:18.474): I’m even telling people (00:33:20.165): Are we being disembodied because we’re not even, you know, engaging each other anymore? (00:33:25.691): That maybe, you know, the loudest voice has become AI. (00:33:30.455): It’s not become, like, because it’s just easier, more convenient. (00:33:34.024): How do I talk to the other person across the table? (00:33:36.746): How do I talk to this person in my neighborhood or in my small group? (00:33:39.848): What does that look like? (00:33:40.889): And is God speaking on that end? (00:33:43.051): And this kind of challenge of AI, (00:33:45.352): I think some of you might have saw the Pope Leo recently writing about that. (00:33:51.617): That’s a very interesting space for us to be in. (00:33:53.618): Will we become a culture that’s formed by (00:33:56.839): That’s great. (00:33:57.359): Love it. (00:34:16.212): Yeah, (00:34:16.512): well, (00:34:18.312): I do have another whole episode with you in mind now because I want to talk about (00:34:22.933): AI. (00:34:24.034): I want to get it. (00:34:24.534): Let’s have an AI panel. (00:34:25.814): Let’s do that. (00:34:26.814): Let’s get it. (00:34:27.274): It’s you and John Manson. (00:34:29.035): Yeah. (00:34:29.395): Oh, man. (00:34:30.495): John was the biggest, biggest crap disturber in our class, and it was awesome. (00:34:37.177): He poked at Fitch all the time. (00:34:38.537): I loved it. (00:34:39.557): Yeah, I miss that. (00:34:40.737): You can’t imagine him doing that. (00:34:42.538): You can’t see it, right? (00:34:43.618): Yeah. (00:34:45.097): Now that’s yeah but we definitely need to get you back on talk more about your (00:34:48.783): thesis we only referenced it a little bit but we’re at the end of our time so we’ll (00:34:53.169): do it another time but thank you so much for being on with us really appreciated (00:34:57.435): your time and your insights really This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

7. 

   27 May 2026

   Episode 07 - Bible and Context Interlude

   For Context: Bible and Context Interlude Episode # 07 🎙️ Episode Overview How do our backgrounds, cultures, and current life situations change the way we read the Bible? In this episode, Gino and Luke dive into the complexities of Contextual Theological Interpretation. They explore why traditional academic methods sometimes fall short by ignoring the “cultural blinders” of the reader and discuss how listening to global voices—from Indonesia to New Zealand—can unearth truths in the text we might otherwise miss. Key Discussion Points The Three Caricatures of Interpretation: New Testament Studies (Historical-Critical): Focusing heavily on Greek, verbs, and the original 2,000-year-old context, sometimes neglecting how that meaning lands today. Theological Interpretation: Relying on creeds and church tradition to guide meaning. Contextual Interpretation: Taking social location (like poverty or oppression) seriously. The “Translation Model” vs. The “Container”: Luke discusses the metaphor of the Gospel as “water” that takes the shape of whatever “container” (culture) it is poured into. The Pitfalls of “Objectivity”: Why “objective” historical-critical methods often lean on European or American frameworks without realizing it. Global Perspectives: The Prodigal Son in Russia: Why readers who have experienced famine notice different details than Western readers. Philemon and Onesimus: How Black interpreters offer a different, highly probable perspective on the slave/master dynamic that differs from traditional white Southern interpretations. The Maori Experience: The fascinating history of the Bible in New Zealand and the “Teteriti” (Treaty). Communal Discernment: Gino shares a practical three-question framework for reading the Bible in community to break out of individual biases. Notable Quotes “We are actually bad at ignoring context... it’s easy for us to neglect the culture we are actually trying to study.” — Luke Stehr “God cares about all of it, and the scripture can speak life into everyone coming in with all those different things.” — Gino Curcuruto “The Bible is a place where we encounter God, or more accurately, God encounters us.” — Luke Stehr Resources Mentioned Books: Contextual Theological Interpretation by Dr. Bo Lim Models of Contextual Theology by Stephen Bevins Preaching in a New Key by Mark Glanville Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes by Richards & O’Brien Concepts: Polycentric Mission: The idea from Alan Yeh that mission is “everyone to everywhere.” Try This Experiment Gino suggests a communal reading practice involving these three questions: * What stands out to you in this text? (Listen to others’ stories without front-loading information). * What is God saying to us? (Discussing the implications for your specific community). * How should we respond together? (Moving from interpretation to action). For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) Transcript (00:00:10): I’m Gino Curcuruto I’m Luke Stare And you’re listening to For Context A podcast (00:00:17): about Northern Seminary’s doctorative ministry in contextual theology Welcome back (00:00:24): to For Context I’m here with Luke He’s here What’s up? (00:00:29): Alright Today we are going to have a conversation about the Bible and contextual (00:00:36): theological interpretation or just contextual interpretation (00:00:39): I’m not exactly sure. (00:00:42): So we have in a couple of weeks, Luke, we have a class on something around that subject. (00:00:47): We’ve been reading and preparing for months for this class. (00:00:51): And we are going to learn about different ways to interpret the Bible and why... (00:00:58): not why it’s important to consider context in your biblical interpretation. (00:01:05): So when I say that, why is it important to consider context in your interpretation? (00:01:10): What comes to your mind, if anything? (00:01:13): Oh, man. (00:01:15): It’s a lot comes to mind, actually. (00:01:18): And I think it’s really so many times we ignore context. (00:01:22): I think that’s a large issue. (00:01:25): I think history of just like how we teach the Bible both like in a church level and (00:01:30): at like an academic level and I know you’re planning on getting into this I won’t (00:01:33): steal your thunder too much but I think we’re actually bad at ignoring context on (00:01:40): both polls because I think it’s easy and we’ll unpack what the historical critical (00:01:47): approach is in a little bit I think it’s even easy for us to neglect (00:01:53): Even in a historical critical framework on the culture that we’re actually trying to study. (00:02:00): And that’s so complicated. (00:02:01): I mean, that’s why we continue to have biblical studies. (00:02:04): And that’s why even the historical critical field continues on is because it’s so difficult. (00:02:12): for us to analyze, (00:02:14): study, (00:02:15): understand a culture that’s at least 2,000 years old and is in a very different (00:02:22): place with a very different framework. (00:02:23): You and I are both white American men. (00:02:27): A lot of the historical critical approach is either European or American frameworks. (00:02:35): And so integrating... (00:02:37): Just a different view of culture is so challenging. (00:02:40): And that’s why historical critical continues. (00:02:43): But I think it continues on not recognizing the pitfall of context on both ends, (00:02:50): the context here and the context then. (00:02:52): And so, yeah, we’re going to just dive into that. (00:02:55): But that’s what comes to mind is it’s just insanely difficult. (00:02:59): Yes, there’s a lot of complexities happening. (00:03:01): Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off there. (00:03:02): No, it’s all good. (00:03:03): Yeah, I think... (00:03:05): I don’t know that we’re in this episode we’re going to resolve this with like a (00:03:08): process here’s how you do it because we’re kind of coming to you with some (00:03:13): experience with a lot of like thought and experience in this but also we haven’t (00:03:18): taken this class so we haven’t really fully formed our our full um (00:03:23): I would say our assumptions are in us coming into this, (00:03:27): but we haven’t kind of resolved some of those ourselves. (00:03:30): And come take the seminar if you want to have those things resolved for you as well. (00:03:36): But let me do a... (00:03:38): Yeah, like a Fitchian move here and hyper caricature each of these different approaches. (00:03:45): Love it. (00:03:46): Kind of try to say, here’s why this is a problem. (00:03:49): So you have the New Testament studies people, which he often likes to... (00:03:55): David Fitch, (00:03:57): who is over the Contextual Theology Program at Northern Seminary, (00:04:00): just for people who lack context. (00:04:03): There you go. (00:04:04): Thanks. (00:04:04): Thanks. (00:04:05): Thanks, Luke. (00:04:05): That’s very helpful. (00:04:07): So they’ll study the Greek and (00:04:11): and the parsing out verbs. (00:04:13): They’ll think about the historical context there, (00:04:16): what was happening there, (00:04:17): and then just take that meaning and kind of put it onto current times. (00:04:23): Now, I don’t know that there’s necessarily any scholar that does it exactly that way. (00:04:28): That’s why it’s a caricature. (00:04:29): But the emphasis in this caricature is on (00:04:33): The original language is what is the meaning in that context and if we know more (00:04:38): about that then we can understand what the meaning is for today lots of truth in (00:04:43): that maybe not the full story then you’d have like a theological interpretation (00:04:47): which (00:04:48): Relies on Tradition, (00:04:50): Creeds, (00:04:50): those things, (00:04:51): takes them into account as we consider what is that text saying for the church (00:04:58): throughout time into today. (00:05:00): Again, caricature of that. (00:05:03): At least saying the tradition. (00:05:04): So then I guess the question is whose tradition, which tradition, right? (00:05:08): Now you’re getting it complex. (00:05:10): And then we’ll have a contextual interpretation where people will take their social (00:05:14): location really seriously, (00:05:16): kind of the situation. (00:05:18): One of the most well-known kind of contextual theologies would be liberation (00:05:24): theology, (00:05:25): like taking really seriously what the scriptures might say for those who are (00:05:30): oppressed and in poverty. (00:05:33): And I think that’s important. (00:05:34): Oftentimes, (00:05:35): though, (00:05:36): that interpretation will favor certain texts over others is one of the critiques of (00:05:43): that. (00:05:43): Maybe even to the neglect of other passages that (00:05:48): that may not fit that context or that interpretation. (00:05:52): That is a critique of it. (00:05:54): So we have this complex situation, (00:05:57): and I’ve made it even more complex by making it a caricature and not an actuality, (00:06:01): right? (00:06:03): In the midst of that, (00:06:05): one of the books that we read was Contextual Theological Interpretation by Dr. (00:06:09): Bo Lim, (00:06:11): and he makes a case for kind of working all three of these together. (00:06:17): And then I’ve also read some critiques of his case that he makes as well. (00:06:21): And it’s really interesting to me, though, to say that all of these things matter. (00:06:26): How do you hold them in tension? (00:06:28): And I don’t know that we’re going to resolve this, Luke, but I’m saying... (00:06:31): Which of those aspects are you maybe inclined towards and which one maybe have you (00:06:39): kind of had to lean into? (00:06:42): That’s a great question. (00:06:45): So I am coming out of, I’m in a Baptist tradition. (00:06:50): I’m Baptist educated through and through. (00:06:52): I did theological education at a Baptist, (00:06:54): Southern Baptist undergraduate, (00:06:56): and then did my Master’s of Divinity at a non-Southern Baptist seminary. (00:07:02): And so for those of you who are not Baptists, (00:07:05): I love that you add that to the context, (00:07:08): a non-Southern Baptist, (00:07:09): Baptist university. (00:07:10): Very good. (00:07:11): Yeah, you got to clarify. (00:07:12): Yeah. (00:07:14): And so the Baptists love the Bible. (00:07:17): And so I grew up Baptist. (00:07:19): And so everything is so word driven, Bible driven. (00:07:23): And there’s a huge appreciation for historical critical interpretation in those environments. (00:07:30): And so as I went to seminary coming out of undergraduate, I had some Bible classes, um, (00:07:36): But as I went to seminary, (00:07:37): there was a major emphasis on the historical critical in my Bible classes. (00:07:41): But on the other hand, my concentration in seminary was world Christianity. (00:07:45): And so I was getting this kind of double exposure. (00:07:48): to these very different fields and so started to be exposed to the work that, (00:07:54): you know, (00:07:55): like Stephen Bevins in Models of Contextual Theology references David Heslegrave. (00:08:00): Well, (00:08:00): I read David Heslegrave’s very fat cross-cultural communication book, (00:08:06): which is a great book, (00:08:07): but it is so thick. (00:08:09): And so, (00:08:11): you know, (00:08:11): at the same time as I’m getting this historical critical approach in my scriptures (00:08:15): classes, (00:08:16): I’m getting this very (00:08:19): linguistic theory cultural theory cultural anthropology very much like a (00:08:24): translation model approach of contextual theology still within that which I think I (00:08:29): tend to lean into the translation model of contextual theology which is a Stephen (00:08:33): Bevan’s models of contextual theology thing and (00:08:38): which you’ve kind of hit the nail on the head and historical critical tends to (00:08:42): borrow from this translation model of contextual theology which is this idea that (00:08:48): there is a core message and culture is this kind of the language that I often use (00:08:55): in world Christianity classes is kind of the clothing that we can change and shape (00:09:00): I think there’s a really famous book called Living Water in an Indian Bowl but (00:09:03): basically like (00:09:05): I think Michael Frost wrote a book called Mission is the Shape of Water and Mission (00:09:08): is just the shape of the container but at the core it’s still just water and so (00:09:14): this translation model very much borrows off these metaphors that you know the (00:09:18): gospel message is like water it just takes the shape of the container that it’s in (00:09:22): or it’s like the clothing we wear and so the gospel is able to wear the clothes of (00:09:28): any culture um (00:09:31): And so I’ve lost my train of thought because I’m under-caffeinated right now. (00:09:35): But I’m going to keep going and we’ll see where we wind up. (00:09:42): But really, it’s holding these things in tension. (00:09:45): I think historical critical has a lot of strengths. (00:09:49): I think Fitch can be really hard on it. (00:09:51): But I think the pitfalls of historical critical come in when we... (00:09:57): are unwilling to grapple with our own cultural blinders in approaching the text. (00:10:03): So one of my most vivid memories growing up in my Southern Baptist church, (00:10:07): I grew up in a town that had a Southern Baptist university with respected Bible (00:10:13): professors. (00:10:14): And I remember I was a kid, I was maybe nine years old, (00:10:18): the age my daughter is and we have these like Sunday night Bible studies that are (00:10:22): being taught by these professors which is a super Baptist thing to do I don’t know (00:10:27): if the Christian Missionary Alliance would ever be like that’s what we should do is (00:10:30): bring in a Baptist we should bring in a Bible professor to teach our people the (00:10:33): Bible like Baptist churches go nuts for that kind of thing but where he’s working (00:10:41): through Romans and I you know for the most part have sat down and (00:10:47): not tuned in but we get to Romans 16 and he starts teaching about Phoebe and (00:10:55): ultimately is just like talking about the role of deacon and she’s not really a (00:10:59): leader in the church and I remember raising my hand as a child which is just my (00:11:08): personality and asking like but it says she’s a deacon and (00:11:15): He’s like well it says she’s a deaconess it’s the feminine version of the noun and (00:11:22): basically is applying his own cultural assumptions about Phoebe’s role in the (00:11:25): church of Centraea to the text and so so often and this is the pitfall I think if (00:11:31): historical critical and why we need a more contextual theological interpretation is (00:11:37): we forget that we actually bring a context into the text (00:11:42): yes and so I’ve talked about Mark Glanville on here before his book Preaching in a (00:11:47): New Key has been so helpful for me because one of the things he talks about in (00:11:50): sermon writing is what’s the through line and the way that I would describe it is (00:11:53): really like in preaching or teaching the Bible or writing about scripture what (00:11:59): you’re really trying to do is figure out how you get the text into this context and (00:12:04): the context into this text and (00:12:07): And to get them to speak to one another. (00:12:09): And that’s why we need contextual theological interpretation. (00:12:14): Because without it, (00:12:16): I think it’s easy to go in in a historical critical approach, (00:12:19): not recognizing that you’re actually bringing a context to the text. (00:12:24): And that’s so hard to be aware of. (00:12:26): Yes, (00:12:27): that’s so I didn’t grow up in the church, (00:12:30): you know that but so I didn’t have any of those Bible profs coming in on a day and (00:12:35): I didn’t get to ask any of those controversial questions. (00:12:39): As a nine year old, I asked other controversial questions. (00:12:42): Yeah, I’m sure you did. (00:12:43): That’s probably for another podcast. (00:12:45): You and I have never asked controversial questions. (00:12:48): But I love and really relate, (00:12:52): maybe because of not having a church background, (00:12:55): I came with a lot of assumptions about the scriptures, (00:12:59): some of them that I was aware of, (00:13:00): most of them that I wasn’t. (00:13:03): But I never had anyone tell me that all of that bridge building that I’m doing (00:13:22): is based in certain biases that I have. (00:13:25): The way that I understand the culture around me, (00:13:29): the assumptions that I make about what would be contextual is not interrogated. (00:13:37): I hear you saying like in these different global Christianity and all of these (00:13:41): other aspects, (00:13:43): we have to consider the language is even different. (00:13:46): So the assumptions could be different. (00:13:48): And that becomes more obvious. (00:13:50): But see, (00:13:51): there was also this inherent bias in the teaching that I received, (00:13:55): which was, (00:13:56): well, (00:13:56): there’s this true interpretation and now you just have to figure out how to say it. (00:14:01): to people who don’t know the true interpretation yet, (00:14:05): rather than saying there’s different ways of understanding what this true (00:14:09): interpretation means in our context or something else. (00:14:14): And I found that to be very on brand with the kind of Christianity that says like, (00:14:20): hey, (00:14:20): we have the truth and we just have to figure out how to finagle it into your (00:14:26): understanding so you can be like us, (00:14:29): which is not true. (00:14:31): not healthy at all. (00:14:32): Let’s just say it that way. (00:14:33): No. (00:14:35): And that’s, yeah, it’s so complicated. (00:14:38): And that’s why I think it’s so key. (00:14:41): And one of the, (00:14:41): I think the best things that’s happening right now in biblical scholarship is there (00:14:45): is a higher level of engagement with the global church than I think there has been (00:14:49): in a long time. (00:14:50): And I think so much of this is described in what Alan Yeh calls polycentric mission. (00:14:55): And really, it’s just this idea that the (00:14:58): he would say mission I’m going to say the church is everyone to everywhere but I (00:15:02): think that’s trickling into scholarship as well and so you’re starting to see like (00:15:07): a higher level of cross pollination or at least I am I also serve on like a global (00:15:12): committee so that could just be my bias but you are starting to see this cross (00:15:19): pollination of (00:15:22): Christians from different cultures are now contributing to scholarship and allowing (00:15:26): context different contexts to actually speak to one another which is a way of (00:15:32): strengthening contextual local theology is by putting it in conversation with other (00:15:36): local contextual theology because it has this way of exposing blind spots providing (00:15:43): really great insight into what it looks like you know I think some of the things (00:15:50): that have been pivotal and helpful for me and just thinking through how do (00:15:59): Christians make sense to have government things and government policies and (00:16:03): encountering New Zealand Christians. (00:16:06): If you don’t know, I did not know the Christian history of New Zealand until a year ago. (00:16:15): The British arrived and the first missionaries actually shared the Bible with the Maori people. (00:16:22): And the Maori people actually took it. (00:16:25): And they were like, oh, the Gospel of Luke, this makes sense. (00:16:27): And they actually started just living it. (00:16:29): They stopped cannibalism and started communal sharing. (00:16:32): And the British missionaries were like, oh, we don’t know if that’s it. (00:16:37): But they made something that was... (00:16:42): should have been really good. (00:16:43): It was called Teteriti or it’s the treaty. (00:16:46): And it lasted for about 10 years. (00:16:48): And then basically the British came in and didn’t follow the treaty that they set (00:16:53): with the Maori. (00:16:54): You don’t say. (00:16:54): You don’t say. (00:16:58): But now there are Maori Christians who are basically trying to help the church in (00:17:04): New Zealand figure out like, (00:17:05): what does it look like for us (00:17:07): Together as Maori people and white settlers to live out the treaty that we set (00:17:13): because the treaty set way back in the 1800s actually had huge religious (00:17:17): implications as well. (00:17:20): And so what does it look like for us to live that out together? (00:17:23): And so there’s some fascinating work being done, (00:17:25): but that helps us think about like, (00:17:26): well, (00:17:27): what does it look like for us to relate to government, (00:17:29): to think about how we relate to power structures here and (00:17:33): It’s not a one for one exchange, (00:17:34): but it is a thing that just makes you go like, (00:17:37): okay, (00:17:37): well, (00:17:37): if they’re doing that, (00:17:38): then how can we do this? (00:17:41): And so you’ve got to engage the voice of other contexts. (00:17:44): There needs to be a generosity. (00:17:46): I mean, one thing is... (00:17:48): The scholarship that’s been happening globally being received by those who are kind (00:17:55): of the gatekeepers of power in a lot of these areas, (00:17:59): which has its own issues that we have to have those conversations, (00:18:03): obviously. (00:18:04): But I think it’s for the... (00:18:08): For the person in the church who maybe isn’t necessarily preaching or studying (00:18:14): these things the same way, (00:18:16): I think that you see this, (00:18:19): depending on where you live, (00:18:20): you see this of the way of conversations, (00:18:25): listening to people that are different from you, (00:18:27): and then not assuming that they have no value because they’re different. (00:18:34): like there’s been some reckoning with that it’s not we still have a lot of work to (00:18:39): do obviously but I just think about what’s that maybe a little bit yeah maybe just (00:18:44): a little bit but I’m just wondering like you know we we this is this is the same (00:18:49): kind of language that we need to develop for our our interpretation that we just (00:18:54): need as citizens now I live in Philadelphia it’s a pretty (00:18:58): Pretty multicultural, multi-ethnic city. (00:19:01): I’m friends with not one, (00:19:03): not two, (00:19:03): but three Indonesian Mennonite pastors in the same neighborhood. (00:19:09): And having conversations with them, especially when they’re (00:19:12): For Context (00:19:31): No, (00:19:32): we’re actually considering the importance of these issues because we have a 90% (00:19:39): immigrant population within our church. (00:19:41): And so the issues are different. (00:19:43): And actually, we don’t want people to make loud statements. (00:19:46): statements about things to draw attention to our movement right now. (00:19:50): We want to fly under the radar because that’s safer. (00:19:53): I’ve heard that before, (00:19:54): you know, (00:19:54): and I think that’s a totally different assumption about power and about speaking up (00:20:00): from someone who’s in the majority culture, (00:20:03): you know. (00:20:04): And so to say that, (00:20:06): that may be how we think about things socially, (00:20:08): but then think about how we bring that to the text, (00:20:11): right? (00:20:13): When we’re looking at it, there was a thought experiment. (00:20:16): It was replicated in a New Testament class I took with Nije Gupta. (00:20:20): I don’t remember where it came from. (00:20:22): You probably know, but looking at the parable of the prodigal son, (00:20:31): In a Western context, you know, and you read it and you ask, like, what stands out? (00:20:36): And people will talk about the son leaving the father, dishonoring the father. (00:20:41): But in a Russian context, I remember the story. (00:20:44): Every single person who heard it, (00:20:46): the first thing they pointed out was that there was a famine in the land. (00:20:51): That’s the first thing that it says in the story. (00:20:53): There’s a great famine. (00:20:54): And so they picked up on something in the text that most people who haven’t (00:20:59): experienced a famine or poverty of that sort totally miss. (00:21:05): And so I get a little bit worked up when people assume that contextual (00:21:12): interpretations bring something to the text. (00:21:15): you know like they’re adding something into the text rather than and you didn’t say (00:21:19): this I’m not pushing back on you I’m just getting myself elevated autonomously here (00:21:24): I think that I get upset about that because I think we actually are missing so much (00:21:30): of the text by having one single set of eyes on it and by having multiple (00:21:36): experiences come to the text we actually hear a fuller picture of what God might be (00:21:43): communicating I’m fully convinced of that (00:21:45): Yeah, well, for example, you know, we have the letters of Philemon, Onesimus has come to Paul. (00:21:54): Paul basically is writing this letter saying I’m sending Onesimus back to you not (00:21:57): as a slave but as a brother so for so much of like European and American and white (00:22:03): American historic interpretation of that text the assumption has been Onesimus has (00:22:09): probably stolen from Philemon he’s wronged Philemon in some way and he’s run away (00:22:16): out of shame and has come to Paul to basically Paul help me save me (00:22:22): One interpretation. (00:22:23): Nowhere in the text does it actually tell us if anyone was wronged, (00:22:26): how they were wronged, (00:22:28): why Onesimus is not with Philemon anymore. (00:22:32): Black interpreters have been really helpful pointing it out that this (00:22:36): interpretation that continues on that Onesimus is the one who wronged Philemon is (00:22:42): the same interpretation that slavers used throughout slavery. (00:22:45): And so we’re still using the same interpretation from white slavery dynamics in the (00:22:50): American South. (00:22:52): Whereas it’s just as likely, just as probable, that Philemon is the one who wronged Onesimus. (00:23:00): And Onesimus is now going to Paul to basically say, like, I need help. (00:23:04): My master’s wronged me. (00:23:06): And they’re using kind of this Roman social structure to appeal to Paul for help. (00:23:10): And furthermore, (00:23:11): what that actually suggests is you have a slave living in a Christian household (00:23:15): where the church was meeting (00:23:18): He was ready to meet Christ, (00:23:20): receive the good news because he goes to Paul and it happens almost immediately. (00:23:25): But for whatever reason, (00:23:26): he’d been excluded from the church that met in the home, (00:23:29): in the household where he was a slave. (00:23:32): And so he was not treated as an equal person. (00:23:35): as a valid participant in the church life within that household, (00:23:39): which is just a radically different way of approaching that very tiny letter that’s (00:23:43): so significant. (00:23:45): And so we have to listen to these other voices because the reality is everyone is (00:23:51): bringing something to the text that they’re not aware of. (00:23:55): I mean, (00:23:55): this is, (00:23:55): I think, (00:23:56): the strength of the book, (00:23:56): Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes, (00:23:59): which is a great popular level book, (00:24:01): I would say. (00:24:03): so anyone can pick this up and read it it’s not like a huge dense communication (00:24:08): theory book but recognizing that you are bringing something to the text and it is (00:24:13): changing the way you hear it you read it you interpret and apply it it’s so key (00:24:19): Yeah, (00:24:20): I know I said that we weren’t going to resolve this, (00:24:22): but I want to give people an experiment they could try if they’re not doing it. (00:24:26): And because it’s something that that has really helped me and it’s a continual practice. (00:24:30): It’s it’s it’s kind of an Anabaptist ish. (00:24:34): practice of communal discernment around biblical interpretation. (00:24:39): So get together with some Bible reading friends, (00:24:43): read a text, (00:24:45): and maybe consider asking three questions. (00:24:47): We do this, I do this almost twice a week, every week with people. (00:24:51): What stands out to you is the first thing. (00:24:54): This is similar to the dwelling in the word that we learned from Al Roxborough, (00:24:59): who will be on the podcast shortly. (00:25:01): But (00:25:02): But what stands out to you? (00:25:04): And then don’t give any background or anything. (00:25:07): Don’t give people any kind of front-loading of information that changes their assumptions. (00:25:15): And see how the people around you have different things that stand out to them (00:25:20): based on their story. (00:25:22): And this might not even be a diverse group of people. (00:25:26): I’m just (00:25:26): For Context for Context for Context (00:25:45): in light of these stories. (00:25:47): And then we’re trying to discern what is the message that God might be (00:25:50): communicating to us in this time. (00:25:52): We’ve had some conversation about what maybe some of these things mean or what (00:25:56): stands out to us and what it means. (00:25:58): And then the third question we ask is, how do we think we should respond together to this? (00:26:06): And that movement through those questions always brings up all kinds of (00:26:12): Goodness, (00:26:13): challenging things, (00:26:14): disagreements, (00:26:15): but often, (00:26:16): I mean, (00:26:17): every time there’s something that comes up that I wasn’t thinking about because I (00:26:21): don’t have the capacity to do that. (00:26:23): But also I think hearing people responding to the scriptures based on where they (00:26:28): are in that moment, (00:26:29): not just where their social, (00:26:31): their social location, (00:26:32): but I’m like their temporal location. (00:26:34): What happened to them? (00:26:36): We had a tragedy happen among people in our community, (00:26:39): well, (00:26:40): related to people in our community, (00:26:42): where a very, (00:26:44): very well-respected and loved and influential woman in a nearby church who’s just a (00:26:51): gift to the church was tragically (00:26:54): hit and run and she was killed at the scene of this accident while she was going to (00:27:01): pick up a friend from a hospital which is exactly what she would be doing at 5 in (00:27:05): the morning just always serving the body and their neighbors (00:27:09): and the people ran away. (00:27:12): But that week, (00:27:13): the person who was closest to her and the way he was interpreting the scripture or (00:27:18): what was standing out to him was different because of where he was then coming (00:27:22): from, (00:27:23): entering that space than me. (00:27:24): And I think that’s, I think God actually cares about that. (00:27:27): I’m not saying that your academic trajectory has to change because of your emotions. (00:27:33): I’m simply saying God cares about all of it and the scripture can speak life into (00:27:38): everyone coming in with all those different things. (00:27:40): What do you think about that, Luke? (00:27:42): Oh, I think that’s absolutely true. (00:27:44): Yeah. (00:27:47): Yeah. (00:27:49): Allow scripture to speak. (00:27:51): It is at the end of the day. (00:27:52): And I think this is, (00:27:53): again, (00:27:53): a risk in any school of interpretation, (00:27:56): whether it’s contextual, (00:27:57): theological, (00:27:58): or historical, (00:27:58): critical. (00:28:00): First and foremost, the Bible is a place of encounter. (00:28:04): I don’t want to deify scripture. (00:28:06): It’s not the word in the Bible is not the word, as in the second person of the Trinity. (00:28:13): But it is, in a sense, it’s an event. (00:28:17): It is (00:28:19): Where we encounter the living God and God encounters us through Scripture. (00:28:23): And so that is what it is first and foremost. (00:28:26): And that’s the beauty of it. (00:28:27): You know, (00:28:28): my grandparents had, (00:28:29): I think, (00:28:31): one had an eighth grade education and one, (00:28:32): I think, (00:28:33): finished high school. (00:28:35): So, you know, not pros at historical critical interpretation. (00:28:40): But God spoke to them through Scripture. (00:28:42): And they didn’t need... (00:28:44): and masters of divinity to do this. (00:28:46): So first and foremost, (00:28:48): the Bible is a place where we encounter God, (00:28:51): or more accurately, (00:28:52): God encounters us. (00:28:55): So let it be that first, and then use these kind of schools of theological thought. (00:29:02): I’m obviously going to promote more contextual theological interpretation, (00:29:07): because I think what that does is it (00:29:09): it strengthens the historical critical put the two together because they belong (00:29:12): together we still need historical critical because what that’s doing is it’s doing (00:29:16): the work of unearthing a past far removed context but you need the contextual (00:29:22): theological to help connect it to what’s happening today and recognize that what is (00:29:26): happening today is coloring the way you see what’s happening then so do those (00:29:30): things together now I kind of want to switch gears we’re gearing up for another (00:29:36): cohort meeting (00:29:38): And this podcast is about the program. (00:29:41): So Gino, (00:29:43): what are some of the things that stand out to you as you’re prepping to be together (00:29:48): for a week with Dr. (00:29:50): Cynthia Westfall? (00:29:52): We’ll be together. (00:29:53): We’ve read. (00:29:54): What’s standing out? (00:29:55): I think if I’m (00:29:59): How I process these things is I think about I’m excited to be back together with my (00:30:06): friends that I see just every six months, (00:30:08): except for you. (00:30:09): I see you more regularly, at least digitally. (00:30:13): I’m also thinking about what is the structure of the class. (00:30:17): So I spend a lot of time reviewing the syllabus in order to be prepared. (00:30:22): I’m kind of a nerd like that. (00:30:24): And what is the style of the teacher? (00:30:25): I’ve... (00:30:27): I’ve read some of Dr. (00:30:28): Westphal’s books and I’m a little familiar, (00:30:31): but I don’t know what her teaching style is going to be like, (00:30:33): you know, (00:30:34): and I say this because we had we had a class recently with with Al Roxborough keeps (00:30:39): coming up. (00:30:40): But, you know, I take notes on my laptop and the first day he’s like, put your computers away. (00:30:45): We’re just going to talk. (00:30:46): You can take notes on. (00:30:47): And and that was helpful. (00:30:49): but I wasn’t prepared for that that was a little disruptive to me and it was good (00:30:53): so I’m always looking for those kind of clues and I’m of course making sure I’ve (00:30:57): done all the pre-work because I’m a nerd like that so I think but more specifically (00:31:04): to the content of the class I have really been enjoying the intersection of all of (00:31:12): this reading and just how it’s been challenging and (00:31:18): in certain ways of how do you put it together. (00:31:22): And then I’ve also been relieved from that challenge by saying, (00:31:26): I don’t need to put this together because this isn’t what I’m teaching right now. (00:31:29): I’m not teaching this. (00:31:31): I need to experience this. (00:31:33): And so the last... (00:31:35): I want to reread Bo Lim’s book because I read it first and now I want to go back to (00:31:40): it and have a deeper understanding of just... (00:31:44): All the work that he’s doing, (00:31:45): because it seemed like there was so much going on in that little tiny book. (00:31:49): And so I’m thinking about how this is all going to come together. (00:31:52): And then the last thing that I’m thinking about is regarding the class is like, (00:31:57): how are my cohort members, (00:32:00): fellow cohort members processing this? (00:32:02): How are they going to respond? (00:32:03): Are there going to be some big revelations or pushbacks or something? (00:32:08): I don’t know. (00:32:08): I’m always kind of prepared for that as well. (00:32:10): Yeah. (00:32:11): And then finally which isn’t related to the class is that we all stay most of a (00:32:15): group of us stay in an Airbnb together and so there’s always like this social (00:32:18): component that’s really fun so I’m always thinking about what are the questions (00:32:23): that I want to ask the other people so maybe I throw that back at you how are you (00:32:27): preparing for this what are you thinking (00:32:29): Yeah, you mentioned the note-taking. (00:32:31): I am working on completely changing up the way I take notes because I’ve just not (00:32:35): been happy with it. (00:32:36): So I bought a notebook and have been kind of making outlines of the reading, (00:32:42): kind of what are the main points, (00:32:43): and then here’s some supporting quotes because I fly in, (00:32:46): so it’s really hard to take books with me to class. (00:32:49): And that way... (00:32:52): I’m not as distracted by tech in class. (00:32:54): I may still have my iPad or computer to look something up if I need to, (00:32:57): but I’m moving to a much more analog way of taking notes, (00:33:04): but also trying to be more systematic about it. (00:33:07): I have finished the reading. (00:33:10): There’s some writing pieces we’ve got to put together that I have not done that I (00:33:14): will do that’s coming. (00:33:16): So we’ve got to think about 12 pages of writing before the class. (00:33:19): It’s just pre-work. (00:33:21): And so that’ll happen for me, I think, the next couple of weeks. (00:33:24): But yeah, it’s a social aspect. (00:33:27): I’m excited to see everyone. (00:33:28): Alan Roxborough’s class, I think, did a number of on all of us in the best possible way. (00:33:35): And I’m kind of curious to see how everyone’s doing six months later in the wake of that. (00:33:41): And just catch up because I think that class just (00:33:45): Yeah, there is kind of like this dual layer of things that are happening. (00:33:48): We’re learning, we’re growing. (00:33:50): And within our context, we’re probably thinking about how to integrate some of our learnings. (00:33:54): And then also we’re growing. (00:34:11): As a cohort closer together each time going through these shared experiences. (00:34:16): And it feels like it becomes weightier each time. (00:34:21): And I don’t mean that as a burden. (00:34:22): I just mean like we’re moving forward. (00:34:25): For Context for Context for Context for Context (00:34:40): I’m really challenged by just summarizing texts. (00:34:45): I can talk about what is important, (00:34:48): and it’s part of this almost fear of I’m not going to get the author’s original (00:34:54): intent right. (00:34:55): I’m going to (00:34:56): put something on there. (00:34:57): And so I’m really wrestling with that. (00:34:59): It’s almost like there’s some contextual theological interpretation going on. (00:35:02): Exactly. (00:35:03): I’m broken. (00:35:04): I’m broken because of this. (00:35:06): So like summarizing an argument, I love it when an author says the point of this book or in this (00:35:11): It’s not a major issue, (00:35:18): but when you have to write three book reviews and they’re short, (00:35:21): you want to get the main points right. (00:35:24): Yeah, you do. (00:35:25): There’s no room for fluff. (00:35:28): Well, thanks for listening, everyone. (00:35:30): We’re going to have Alan Roxborough on our next episode, (00:35:33): which I am both so excited and so worried about now. (00:35:39): It’s going to be great We have no idea what’s going to happen, right? (00:35:44): He can take over the whole thing You know, (00:35:46): this is about God’s agency And so Well, (00:35:54): thanks for listening everyone And I think kind of on the tail end of our core (00:35:57): meeting We’ll have some other thoughts to debrief But we’re so, (00:36:01): you know, (00:36:01): thankful for this program And everything it’s doing in our lives and our ministries (00:36:04): And I know that’s been the case for so many alumni as well (00:36:08): So thanks for joining us See ya This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

8. 

   13 May 2026

   Episode 06 - Dr. Michael Moore

   For Context: Dr. Michael Moore Episode # 06 🎙️ Episode Overview This episode of For Context features a conversation with Dr. Mike Moore, the Dean of Northern Seminary and a graduate of the very first cohort of the Contextual Theology program. Hosts Gino and Luke dive into the history of the program, the shift from "Missional Leadership" to "Contextual Theology," and how academic rigor meets the grit of real-world ministry. Episode Highlights * The “OG” Cohort: Mike shares what it was like being the final student added to the very first missional leadership cohort—a time he jokingly refers to as the “Middle Ages” of the program. * The Van Gelder Framework: A deep dive into the influential teaching of Craig Van Gelder and the foundational concept: Who God is defines what the church is, which defines what the church does, which defines how the church organizes. * Contextualization vs. Relevance: A critical discussion on why “relevance” (pop culture references) is not the same as true “contextualization” (being deeply rooted in a specific time, place, and people). * Academic Rigor in DMin Programs: Mike pushes back against the idea of “degree mills,” explaining why the DMin at Northern requires more “substance and grit” than a traditional PhD might. Key Resources Mentioned Books * The Shape of Practical Theology by Ray Anderson – A “life-changing” book for Mike that reframes Jesus as serving the Father on behalf of the world. * Missional Map-Making by Alan Roxburgh. * The End of Evangelicalism? and The Great Giveaway by David Fitch. * Works by Stephen Bevins and Schreiter regarding the embodiment of the Gospel across time and space. Articles & Thinkers * Renita Weems’ Substack: Discussing the critique of Doctorate of Ministry degrees as “degree mills.” * Jonathan Tran: Specifically, his reflections (riffing off Luke Bretherton) regarding post-evangelicalism and church expectations. For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Additional Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) (00:00:11): Welcome back to For Context. (00:00:12): I’m excited for you to hear this episode with Mike Moore. (00:00:15): I’m Gino and Luke is here. (00:00:31): He’s in the background. (00:00:32): He’s giving us a thumbs up. (00:00:34): I hope that you will enjoy this episode as we talk to Mike, (00:00:37): who is not only a graduate of the Contextual Theology Program, (00:00:41): but he currently serves as the Dean of Northern Seminary. (00:00:45): Had some great insights on the OG cohort and things that are happening now and (00:00:50): maybe some of the history. (00:00:52): So listen in and enjoy this episode with us. (00:00:57): Well, (00:00:57): today on For Context, (00:00:59): we have Dr. (00:01:00): Mike Moore, (00:01:01): who is an alum of the program, (00:01:03): but he’s also Dean of Northern Seminary, (00:01:05): a proud Chicagoan, (00:01:07): a connoisseur of yogurt, (00:01:11): and the host of another podcast that’s loosely connected to this program as well. (00:01:16): Probably more tightly connected to this program than ours, actually. (00:01:20): But we’re so glad to have you. (00:01:22): Gino’s here with us as well. (00:01:25): But welcome, Mike. (00:01:27): It’s good to be here I think about two weeks ago I ate yogurt with both of you guys (00:01:33): That’s probably true, (00:01:34): I think so And Fitch too, (00:01:36): and Fitch That’s right This is just a continuation It was interesting to watch (00:01:42): Fitch eat the yogurt And he had opinions about it Yeah, (00:01:47): he was trying to use chopsticks I’ve never seen somebody use chopsticks in yogurt (00:01:50): before It was bizarre (00:01:56): Speaking of Fitch, (00:01:57): which we’re not going to do too much, (00:01:58): but Mike spends here’s one part of his intro. (00:02:01): Mike has spent more time working closely with Fitch than most human beings. (00:02:06): So if we were Catholic, Mike would be a saint probably pretty soon. (00:02:12): That’s good. (00:02:13): I have spent a lot of time with him. (00:02:15): You know, oddly, I feel more relaxed doing this podcast than my own. (00:02:21): With him, (00:02:22): and we were joking about it earlier, (00:02:25): I do tell people a lot of times I go into the podcast and I have no idea what we’re (00:02:30): talking about. (00:02:32): And then halfway through it, I still don’t have an idea what we’re talking about. (00:02:37): But one of the advantages of now having more guests is that I can get a book and (00:02:43): that can kind of steady me a little bit. (00:02:45): There you go. (00:02:45): That’s helpful. (00:02:47): But I’m happy to be here. (00:02:48): This is quite the remarkable startup between the two of you guys. (00:02:52): It’s fun. (00:02:53): It’s been fun. (00:02:54): We’ve had a good time. (00:02:56): So am I correct in understanding that you are part of the very first cohort of this (00:03:01): program ever? (00:03:02): yeah yeah so the og missional leadership cohort right wow you guys did your (00:03:11): homework well yeah we did we had a second round cohort person on here as well so (00:03:17): we’ve learned all the things so what was it like just being a part of the first (00:03:21): cohort in this program it was like the middle ages of the cohort it (00:03:29): Things were dark and we didn’t know where we were going and there was little light. (00:03:34): Okay, so you’re jogging my memory. (00:03:38): I’m grateful for this. (00:03:41): When I joined the program as missional leadership and then about halfway through, (00:03:44): they changed it to contextual theology because even at that point, (00:03:48): missional was becoming overused. (00:03:51): I’ll admit, I had no interest in doing a doctoral program. (00:03:55): So one of the things was (00:03:59): I started to do some work for Northern, (00:04:01): helping with their community development program here in the west side of Chicago. (00:04:06): And one of the exchanges was if I worked for them, (00:04:09): then they would give me some tuition reimbursement. (00:04:12): And I was like, well, Fitch started up a doctoral program. (00:04:15): They were already one class in. (00:04:17): So I ended up getting added later into the program. (00:04:20): I was the last person added to the cohort. (00:04:24): so it’s not that I wasn’t intentional or thoughtful about doing the program it was (00:04:29): more like I don’t know I got free tuition I might as well get another degree so I (00:04:36): definitely backed into it probably with less seriousness than I should have but I (00:04:45): got on the bus and it was moving and here we are all these years later so yeah (00:04:52): What was the first class? (00:04:55): Do you remember? (00:04:55): Because you said you missed one. (00:04:57): Yeah. (00:04:58): Okay. (00:04:59): Len Harlsman? (00:05:01): I couldn’t spell that for you because it has a lot of consonants and two vowels. (00:05:06): It’s one of those names. (00:05:08): Do you guys know Len? (00:05:09): I think he’s up in Ontario. (00:05:11): I don’t know Len. (00:05:13): He has a class more on neighborhood missional engagement I’m just going to make (00:05:20): myself sound like the worst student And then people are going to be like, (00:05:24): this guy’s the dean of his summer He’s a great dean He’s a fantastic dean I’ll (00:05:30): admit this I completely phoned in that paper It was garbage I was like, (00:05:36): okay, (00:05:36): I’ve got to write a paper And I got the kind of grade that you would get if you (00:05:40): phoned in a paper in a doctoral program (00:05:44): And offhand, we were out with some people in the cohort and Fitch was with us. (00:05:49): We were grabbing drinks, you know, coffee, of course. (00:05:53): It was late at night. (00:05:54): Sure, sure, sure. (00:05:57): And I mentioned offhand the grade I got and Fitch kind of stopped and he’s like, wait, what? (00:06:02): He’s like, no, you can’t get a grade like that in this doctoral program. (00:06:08): So I had to up my game over the next five seminars. (00:06:13): Rightfully so. (00:06:14): I got put in place. (00:06:17): But yeah, the first class was with Len. (00:06:18): And then Jeff Holesklaw and Fitch taught quite a bit in the program. (00:06:24): And then we had a few other adjuncts kind of pop in. (00:06:26): Okay. (00:06:27): Okay. (00:06:27): Yeah, it was good. (00:06:29): Was there a class that was kind of like a turning point for you? (00:06:32): I mean, (00:06:33): not just like grade wise, (00:06:34): but like as far as interest, (00:06:36): because you, (00:06:37): I mean, (00:06:38): I know and get to spend time talking with you about these subjects from contextual (00:06:43): theology. (00:06:44): I know it’s not your primary work as a dean, but I know it informs what you do. (00:06:48): And so you’re no slouch. (00:06:51): I just want to say, (00:06:53): while you might be telling about how you started, (00:06:55): obviously you came out with a high degree of competency and fluency in these (00:07:01): subjects. (00:07:02): So what gives? (00:07:06): I would say a couple of things kind of clicked. (00:07:11): Are you guys familiar with Craig Van Gelder? (00:07:15): yes I don’t think Craig’s teaching as much anymore he’s certainly more reformed (00:07:19): than I am but he taught a class on kind of systems and structures of the church and (00:07:29): how you go about bringing about change and innovation it’s a little bit about what (00:07:36): Al does but Craig is just more of a systems guy (00:07:42): And I don’t think I’ve ever had a class where the professor taught the material so well. (00:07:49): I’ve had classes I liked way more. (00:07:52): Certainly material I enjoyed more. (00:07:55): I would even say professors who in their field were maybe a little more brilliant. (00:07:58): But watching Craig teach the class, it was very clear that he had beyond mastery of the content. (00:08:05): He’d been doing it for decades. (00:08:06): And it felt like something was just leading you through (00:08:10): the course content so smoothly and it’s about halfway through the class I was like (00:08:14): oh this guy is phenomenal at being a teacher and just being an instructor of the (00:08:20): content and he had a few concepts I think that I’ve come back to I’ve come back to (00:08:25): this over and over again actually I was in a cabinet meeting we did a cabinet (00:08:29): retreat last week and I brought this up in cabinet I should probably be footnoting (00:08:34): Craig for generations but (00:08:39): He has this concept that’s very simple What the church is defines what the church (00:08:45): does defines how the church organizes and I would always back it up one more and (00:08:51): say who God is so who God is is how we know what the church is that shapes what we (00:08:56): do and how we organize what we do and we talk a lot about that at Northern is like (00:09:01): you know coming back to Jesus that gives us our shape of our unique identity what (00:09:06): we do for the church and then how we organize what we do (00:09:10): For whatever reason, that just clicked in my brain. (00:09:14): And I hope nobody ever punches holes in it because my world will crumble. (00:09:18): I need that to be true. (00:09:22): Foundationally, that has to be absolutely true. (00:09:27): Oh, that’s good. (00:09:30): That class was so incredible for me. (00:09:33): But I add this too. (00:09:35): I mean, we can talk about the dissertation stuff maybe later. (00:09:39): The course has changed so much It was mostly We were doing a lot of the contextual (00:09:45): theology work From the Catholics, (00:09:48): from Bevins and Schreiter The churches, (00:09:53): the embodiment of the gospel Across different time and space And how do these (00:09:58): cultures and context match up with each other And what does it look like to be (00:10:01): faithful In a particular time with a particular people (00:10:06): But we weren’t doing as much culture studies stuff. (00:10:09): Like the culture studies stuff that you all are doing, (00:10:14): I am very envious of because we weren’t doing culture studies about race, (00:10:20): power, (00:10:21): gender, (00:10:21): sexuality. (00:10:23): Right. (00:10:23): Whereas I think like your first class was probably all about that. (00:10:27): Not all about that, but I’m guessing, you know, Fishgate. (00:10:29): We touched on it. (00:10:30): Like, did you get a grid? (00:10:31): You probably got a grid at some point. (00:10:32): Oh, we got the grid, you know, the self and all of that. (00:10:35): Great grid. (00:10:35): Definitely. (00:10:36): Love a good grid. (00:10:39): It also depends on which classes he’s teaching in the master’s program that will be (00:10:44): emphasized, (00:10:45): right? (00:10:45): I’ve learned that too. (00:10:47): I don’t mean that as a critique, (00:10:48): it’s just an observation of, (00:10:49): say, (00:10:50): if he’s teaching this sexuality class, (00:10:53): we’re going to have the examples be around that, (00:10:55): but if he’s teaching church and culture, (00:10:58): he’s going to talk about how terrible the church in America is, (00:11:03): to use his examples. (00:11:05): And those are good. (00:11:06): That’s mostly what the program was about. (00:11:08): Just how terrible the church in America is? (00:11:12): Well, he did write those books, right? (00:11:15): The End of Evangelicalism and yeah, all this, yes. (00:11:19): The Great Giveaway. (00:11:22): Yeah, that’s a good way to describe it. (00:11:23): I mean, (00:11:24): Fitch was writing, (00:11:25): it was after The Great Giveaway and as he was writing The End of Evangelicalism. (00:11:28): So most of his grids, I guess when we say grids, we’re talking about the ways that (00:11:34): Fitch Distills, different cultural movements. (00:11:37): They were mostly around ecclesiology. (00:11:39): They really weren’t about the self in power. (00:11:42): Yes. (00:11:43): So I’ve been a little envious watching you all and watching the cohorts from the (00:11:47): last 10 years get to do that. (00:11:51): If I was not on faculty and serving as the dean, (00:11:54): I don’t think I would have been aware of how much that’s shifted. (00:11:57): In that way, it feels like a completely different program. (00:12:00): Mm-hmm. (00:12:02): A really different program. (00:12:03): I think Fitch just kind of added that to his ensemble the last 10 years, (00:12:07): and that’s really been such a benefit for the work you guys are doing. (00:12:12): So yeah, (00:12:13): if I could go back, (00:12:14): like I would love to jump into some of the classes you guys have as a former grad (00:12:18): who could audit, (00:12:19): but it’s a little weird to be auditing a class of a faculty member who I will be (00:12:24): evaluating. (00:12:27): There’s a power dynamic there. (00:12:29): Yes, there is a power dynamic. (00:12:31): Go ahead, teach whatever you want. (00:12:33): By the way... You know, so it’s been a while since you worked through the coursework. (00:12:42): Are there... You know, you mentioned Van Gelder. (00:12:45): He taught for you, it sounds like. (00:12:47): Are there books or things that are kind of standing out to you? (00:12:49): Because I imagine you started the program in, what, 2012? (00:12:52): It would have been 2013? (00:12:53): So it’s been a hot minute. (00:12:56): Are there... (00:12:58): you didn’t know but now you do what are some of the readings or books or things (00:13:04): that have just kind of stayed with you beyond that Van Gelder kind of framework for (00:13:07): what the church is well certainly Al’s stuff around missional map making was huge (00:13:17): you know the books that Al wrote were all instrumental in the program so Craig and (00:13:24): Al were (00:13:26): Really giving shape to how we think about the church and how we initiate and move (00:13:31): through cultural trends Okay, (00:13:35): I’m gonna I’m gonna pull out one that I don’t think ever got assigned after my (00:13:43): program but this class this book has been life-changing for me Ray Anderson the (00:13:51): shape of practical theology (00:13:54): which I don’t think most people even know about this book Ray was a professor of (00:13:59): theology at Fuller and he’s a BART scholar and he’s obviously written extensively (00:14:09): on practical theology but also kind of like pastoral ministry he does a lot on (00:14:13): ethics and (00:14:15): And he gave a few ideas in that book that really reframe the way I even just think (00:14:20): about doing ministry. (00:14:22): As an aside, (00:14:23): you know, (00:14:24): I teach the doctoral thesis class for all the doctoral students except for this (00:14:29): program. (00:14:32): You know, okay. (00:14:33): That’s funny. (00:14:34): That’s funny. (00:14:35): Mitch wants to do his thing. (00:14:36): I respect it. (00:14:38): And I have them read Ray Anderson. (00:14:40): I just have them read a couple of chapters. (00:14:43): I’ll give you one thing. (00:14:45): I think it’s from the second chapter that was actually really helpful for my own (00:14:49): ministry he talks about how often in the church we discuss how Jesus came to serve (00:15:01): the world on behalf of the Father and that’s something that I heard quite a bit (00:15:06): especially around like Maundy Thursday which is which is next week um (00:15:12): You know, you do some foot washing and like, hey, we’re going to serve like Jesus. (00:15:15): We’re going to serve each other as Jesus would serve it. (00:15:18): But he turns that and he says, (00:15:20): it’s not that Jesus came to serve the world on behalf of the Father. (00:15:22): It’s that Jesus came to serve the Father on behalf of the world. (00:15:27): By that, Jesus is incarnated, proclaiming, announcing the kingdom. (00:15:34): That’s a very Bardian take. (00:15:36): Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, it’s Bart through and through. (00:15:39): It’s like if Bart had like Twitter, and he’s like, how do I say this in like 150 characters? (00:15:45): How do I do this? (00:15:47): So rather than Jesus, (00:15:48): you know, (00:15:49): scrambling around trying to serve every single person, (00:15:52): meet their whims, (00:15:53): meet their demands, (00:15:54): and you want to sit on my left, (00:15:55): you want to sit on my right, (00:15:56): Jesus came and said, (00:15:57): this is what it looks like to live (00:16:00): in unity with the Father. (00:16:01): This is what it looks like to live under the power of the Spirit. (00:16:03): This is what the kingdom looks like. (00:16:05): I’m here serving the Father, bearing witness to what Adam was not able to do. (00:16:10): I am the new Adam. (00:16:12): This is what the kingdom looks like. (00:16:15): That just pops something off for me. (00:16:18): And I have preached that so many times, and I have footnoted him probably 80% of the time. (00:16:25): Sometimes I forget. (00:16:26): I actually did it somewhere at an academic... (00:16:30): like in an academic environment and I even had it written down like footnote him I (00:16:33): forgot to footnote him and I had some people coming to me afterwards like that is (00:16:37): so brilliant and I immediately was like well you’re going to go home and google (00:16:41): this and you’re going to find out it’s not from me it’s not me so you need to know (00:16:46): this is Ray Anderson Fuller Seminary you know rest in peace that’s great that’s (00:16:52): good that book Shape of Practical Theology by Ray Anderson highly recommend it so (00:16:59): good (00:17:00): How do you feel like the culture of the program has changed from the first cohort to now? (00:17:07): Oh, I mean, I think you all are a lot smarter than you were. (00:17:13): I’m not dunking on my classmates. (00:17:17): I just think that there’s a level of seriousness with which people approach it. (00:17:23): and part of that is I think doctorate of ministry degrees maybe 15 years ago were (00:17:29): like hey just go do it it’s the next thing if you’re bored it’d be a good step your (00:17:36): church has made pain for it it’s kind of a fun activity I think now at Northern (00:17:41): there’s like a there’s like an academic rigor with it that did not exist in the (00:17:47): past to the point where um (00:17:53): I was teaching a class on Friday for the doctoral students. (00:17:58): And a few of them were discussing how they thought about doing different degrees (00:18:03): and how they landed at Northern. (00:18:05): What I’ve begun to say is, (00:18:07): look, (00:18:09): if you can’t do a demon at Northern, (00:18:11): just go ahead and get your PhD. (00:18:16): If you can’t do it, that’s fine. (00:18:17): It’s not for everybody. (00:18:18): But you can go get your PhD somewhere where you will... (00:18:22): Okay, this is dismissive. (00:18:23): This is derisive. (00:18:24): Lord, forgive me. (00:18:25): But where you might squirrel away in your narrow band of theological research, (00:18:34): where you can talk to other academics, (00:18:36): but it might not actually meet... (00:18:38): The substance and the grit of the real world, which is where it gets really troubling. (00:18:42): Like your theology becomes so troubled when you start talking to people that don’t (00:18:46): necessarily agree with you or who embody their faith in ways that confound your (00:18:50): theological expectations. (00:18:52): So if you can’t do a demon at Northern, everybody, go ahead. (00:18:56): Just go get a PhD. (00:18:57): Go get a PhD, that’s fine. (00:18:58): Go get that PhD. (00:18:59): Yeah. (00:19:00): That’s really interesting to me. (00:19:02): I mean, (00:19:03): I hear what you’re saying, (00:19:05): and there’s something really interesting in that if you take the trajectory of the (00:19:09): program from what you said it started as, (00:19:12): like, (00:19:12): hey, (00:19:13): these are a lot of people probably just doing ministry, (00:19:15): and this is the next thing you do. (00:19:18): And now, I mean, we still have people that are involved in ministry coming in. (00:19:23): They’re not necessarily people that are, they’re not on the academic track. (00:19:28): It’s not a lot of professors coming in. (00:19:30): And so I wonder what that says about this program (00:19:33): There’s something very unique and special about this program, I believe. (00:19:35): But I wonder if that kind of starts to unearth what that might be, (00:19:38): what that special thing might be. (00:19:39): Yeah, that’s really good. (00:19:40): There’s an article on Substack a couple months ago that (00:20:03): I guess it went a little viral in some seminary circles. (00:20:08): I’m looking down because I’m trying to pull it up. (00:20:12): I think it was from Dr. Weems. (00:20:19): Oh, yeah. (00:20:20): Oh, look at that. (00:20:20): First try. (00:20:21): Renita Weems. (00:20:22): Renita Weems, yeah. (00:20:24): Is she at Emory? (00:20:26): That sounds right. (00:20:28): I think I read this article. (00:20:29): I think I did. (00:20:30): Yeah, (00:20:30): it’s about like doctorate of ministry degrees being degree mills, (00:20:35): which, (00:20:36): you know, (00:20:37): if you’re pulling back the hood a little bit for people that want to know, (00:20:41): doctorate of ministry degrees are desirable from an operational side of an (00:20:47): institution because (00:20:50): It’s a lower credit load Like you’re not doing what an MA or an MDiv would do So (00:20:55): it’s a lower credit load You move through the program relatively quickly And with a (00:20:59): lot of predictability So DMINs are good for seminaries And what can happen is You (00:21:08): can scale them very quickly And you can get people in Who maybe are 10, (00:21:14): 20 years after their MDiv And just want to get (00:21:17): want to get some more education so she was critiquing the degree mill approach (00:21:21): which I think is really necessary because there are a lot of seminaries that just (00:21:25): try to pump them out we have intentionally pushed back against that actually we had (00:21:29): a faculty retreat last year and we talked a lot about pushing back on that but I (00:21:33): think to your point Gino what you’re touching on is that there are so many cultural (00:21:40): shifts and (00:21:43): in the church world and in theological education that when students come to (00:21:47): Northern, (00:21:49): they’re asking the same, (00:21:50): but they’re also asking really different questions than they were asking when they (00:21:52): first started ministry. (00:21:54): And it does require a leveling up of the way you think about doing ministry theologically. (00:22:03): I have thought about this for myself now. (00:22:07): I mean, there’s so many things (00:22:10): that I wish I had more time to focus on when it comes to my academic work. (00:22:18): Because when I did my MDiv, (00:22:21): when I graduated in 2008, (00:22:22): and then I graduated from this program in, (00:22:24): I don’t know, (00:22:25): almost over 10 years ago, (00:22:27): it just changed so much. (00:22:29): And so I even feel like I’m a little behind on some things. (00:22:34): So I imagine a lot of people who are in my place who, you know, I’m in my 40s. (00:22:41): Well, what’s it going to be like 10 years from now? (00:22:43): What’s it going to be 20 years from now? (00:22:44): What’s it going to be like 30 years from now? (00:22:47): And we want to continue to have those conversations. (00:22:49): And the one thing the church isn’t great at and seminary is not great at is we (00:22:52): don’t know how to shape those conversations outside of a degree program always. (00:22:58): Yeah. (00:22:59): Yeah. (00:23:00): That’s a growing edge for us to figure out. (00:23:04): I think that contextual theology as an idea, (00:23:10): as a concept, (00:23:11): as a way of seeing and thinking about things can be taught in one regard, (00:23:18): but then you’re talking about the content, (00:23:20): like what do we need to know? (00:23:22): To form a contextual theology. (00:23:24): So for me in Philadelphia, (00:23:27): I don’t know that if I hadn’t gone through the MA program and now in this, (00:23:31): I don’t know that I would even understand or have a frame to understand. (00:23:37): all the complexities of the cultures around me. (00:23:40): And I haven’t even talked about leaving my house yet, by the way. (00:23:43): I’m just talking about me as a parent, as a husband. (00:23:47): But even then when we step outside as a neighbor and all of that, it is complex. (00:23:52): And so if I went through a program that was just saying, (00:23:55): we’re going to teach you contextual theology and I was just going to start giving (00:23:59): value that there are differences, (00:24:01): that still doesn’t go far enough. (00:24:04): I need to talk about what those things really are and that’s what I feel like you (00:24:08): kind of mentioned that of saying like things are changing things have if not to say (00:24:12): you are behind the times that’s not what I’m trying to say I’m saying there is (00:24:17): actual content within the contextual theology that needs to be interrogated and I (00:24:23): think that’s one of the unique things about this program is that we actually do (00:24:26): that absolutely yeah that’s a good way to put it (00:24:29): Yeah, (00:24:30): so kind of as you think about the future, (00:24:32): not necessarily for the institution, (00:24:34): but just for contextual theology as a discipline, (00:24:39): how do you see contextual theology maybe moving forward? (00:24:43): Like, why does it remain essential? (00:24:45): I mean, (00:24:46): you guys aren’t going to toot your horns, (00:24:47): but both of you were presenting papers last week. (00:25:09): at the Ethnography and Ecclesiology Conference for why it matters. (00:25:13): So in some regards, I think you guys can make a better argument. (00:25:16): But this is maybe not the most helpful move. (00:25:23): I can imagine theologians and academics in different disciplines rolling their eyes (00:25:27): at what I’m going to say. (00:25:28): But here we are. (00:25:34): Everybody’s doing contextual theology. (00:25:37): This is a little bit of a universalizing move So I recognize that I might be (00:25:40): betraying my own convictions and my discipline But everybody’s doing contextual (00:25:47): theology The question is just whether or not you know it And whether or not you’re (00:25:52): doing it well So if there is a theological move where people are continuing to (00:25:59): abstract (00:26:03): I think the church is really going to be to be hurting and to be suffering what I (00:26:10): really want pastors and practitioners to think about is what is what’s unique about (00:26:17): my call and my place and how am I supposed to be faithful in that context I always (00:26:23): tell students I’m like you’re the expert I don’t know I don’t know your church as (00:26:28): well as you know it I don’t know your neighborhood your block as well as you know (00:26:30): it (00:26:32): And I really want the students at Northern to think deeply about those things. (00:26:40): I’m making this connection in my mind. (00:26:41): I don’t know where it will go. (00:26:42): But I visited a friend’s church a couple years ago. (00:26:47): And afterwards we went out to eat. (00:26:50): And he wasn’t on leadership. (00:26:53): He was a member of the church, though. (00:26:54): And asked me what I thought. (00:26:56): And asked me, like, what did you really think? (00:26:59): My takeaway was... (00:27:01): Great people I loved being there But I had no idea where your church was I could (00:27:07): have been anywhere I could have been in San Jose, (00:27:10): California I could have been in Austin I could have been in Minneapolis I could (00:27:14): have been in Virginia Beach Because there was nothing about the church About the (00:27:21): service Even just the way it was designed Where it was That gave me a sense of (00:27:27): place (00:27:29): It was really abstracted And even I would say the sermon and the theology of what (00:27:35): was preached there was very abstracted It felt like it just kind of dropped in And (00:27:41): I think churches that are shaped by abstraction like that (00:27:47): Really are missing the opportunity to disciple people and to evangelize people in (00:27:51): their context. (00:27:53): So I think it’s really important that people are able to, (00:27:56): you know, (00:27:57): we’ll say exegete your context well faithfully. (00:28:02): Can we talk about that some more? (00:28:03): Yeah, (00:28:04): let’s go Because what I hear in that is that sounds like restaurant franchises (00:28:12): where they just simply want people to be familiar with things but it’s not (00:28:17): necessarily the height of a cultural experience to have the exact same burger in (00:28:24): Minneapolis and Virginia and all of that (00:28:27): But at the same time, (00:28:29): at the same time, (00:28:30): I’m trying to be sympathetic to that church in some ways, (00:28:33): saying like, (00:28:34): what... (00:28:35): What are the boundaries for where you can contextualize within a liturgy? (00:28:42): So maybe you could speak more to that. (00:28:44): Because you don’t want to just have cultural shout-outs. (00:28:49): It’s not like you’re just citing pop culture. (00:28:52): That’s not what you’re implying. (00:28:55): That’s not what you’re saying. (00:28:56): The latest whatever album that came out or what’s happening at the Super Bowl halftime show. (00:29:02): You’re not... (00:29:05): I think we need to distinguish here there’s a difference between maybe relevance as (00:29:08): we would call it in some circles versus contextuality or contextualization. (00:29:15): So relevance does not equal contextualization. (00:29:18): Right. (00:29:19): I think that’s good. (00:29:20): And that’s what I hear from you, Mike. (00:29:22): I’m wondering if you could help us and the listeners kind of think about what would (00:29:26): maybe maybe this is the wrong way to ask it, (00:29:28): but what would you have liked to have seen in that context? (00:29:34): Yeah, that’s good. (00:29:35): Yeah. (00:29:35): And I, to your point, I’m pretty cautious about just dunking on churches. (00:29:42): Sure. (00:29:42): Because I have a lot of people that have done that at churches I’ve led. (00:29:45): And we love the church. (00:29:47): Yes. (00:29:47): And we do love the church. (00:29:48): Yeah. (00:29:49): I definitely don’t want to be shaped by some kind of angst. (00:29:54): Mm-hmm. (00:29:55): You know, Jonathan Chan wrote this great article about this. (00:29:58): He’s kind of riffing off of Luke Brotherton. (00:30:00): And when Jonathan Tran is talking about what I would call post-evangelicals, (00:30:06): his question is, (00:30:07): well, (00:30:07): what did you expect? (00:30:09): What did you think the church was? (00:30:14): The church is full of people. (00:30:17): We definitely don’t get it right. (00:30:19): Yeah, yeah, yeah. (00:30:20): So I always want to be cautious with any critiques. (00:30:26): I think one of the things I thought of with this church in particular... (00:30:31): It was a small church plant that sadly had to close their doors a couple years after COVID. (00:30:37): But I thought a lot about the music and the music required a backing track and (00:30:45): backing tracks are really great if you want to fill out sound and if you don’t have (00:30:49): musicians. (00:30:52): Man, I had a church plant. (00:30:55): What’s the piano with the mouth? (00:30:58): Like two Have you ever seen that instrument? (00:31:01): Yes Yeah Like you’re blowing into the piano It’s like I know what it looks like I (00:31:06): don’t know what it’s called I don’t know what it’s called Yeah Anyhow I was part of (00:31:09): a church And like we led worship with that And with somebody on a djembe Like that (00:31:14): was it That’s all we had So I get it Yeah Yeah But what I walked away from With (00:31:20): this church was like Oh This church is referencing another church As to what (00:31:26): faithfulness looks like (00:31:28): It’s almost like they are pointing outside themselves to like, (00:31:31): this is what we’ve seen on YouTube or this is the videos of what we think it looks (00:31:37): like to faithfully worship in music and song. (00:31:40): And I would even say like the sermon to some degree felt like it was shouting over (00:31:47): the people in the congregation. (00:31:49): I mean, (00:31:51): to the point where I thought I’m like, (00:31:52): you probably don’t need amplification with this many people. (00:31:55): Mm-hmm. (00:31:55): Mm-hmm. (00:31:56): Mm-hmm. (00:31:58): It felt like there was a sense of like, (00:31:59): we’re not doing church if we don’t do church the way that we have seen kind of (00:32:06): mainstream evangelical Christianity do it. (00:32:09): Yes. (00:32:10): And one of the things I ran into quite a bit, (00:32:14): and this is actually what I wrote my dissertation on the church I had planted, (00:32:19): which is a college church. (00:32:22): For years, we had people visiting us and asking us how we did what we did. (00:32:27): and the implication was how do we replicate this and I gave them some ideas some (00:32:32): practices but I also said you’re probably not going to be able to do this and it’s (00:32:37): not because we’re so special it’s because this is a very particular embodiment of (00:32:41): the church and there are certainly some practices and principles that can be (00:32:46): carried on but it’s not going to look like us (00:32:50): So I really hope that churches aren’t looking elsewhere for a reference. (00:32:55): It’s almost like in junior high, (00:32:57): I remember going to the junior high dance, (00:33:01): and I was not a good dancer, (00:33:02): and I was still not a good dancer. (00:33:03): But my big problem was I lacked the confidence to dance. (00:33:07): So I remember you’re on the dance floor, (00:33:10): and there’s these little circles, (00:33:11): and you’re not really dancing. (00:33:12): You’re kind of just making fun of each other. (00:33:14): But everybody would watch my one friend, Greg, because Greg danced... (00:33:19): like nobody was watching and you know so you kind of dance and you’re kind of (00:33:24): looking at Greg and you’re like am I doing it right and like everybody’s just like (00:33:27): looking around am I doing it right am I doing it right this high level of (00:33:32): consciousness if you’re actually being if you’re being evaluated and if you’re (00:33:38): doing it correctly yeah so when you’re in a church like that you get the sense that (00:33:42): there’s not I guess I (00:33:47): a level of satisfaction with how God has called them to embody the gospel yeah I’m (00:33:54): building on some theories that are stirring in my mind kind of following our (00:33:57): conversation with Johnny which was so good but you know I think you know we talked (00:34:03): about how architecture like in the absence of significant architecture like (00:34:07): physical buildings stained glass like there’s not much to signify that a modern day (00:34:12): church building in American culture is (00:34:16): Anything distinct Like a third space in a strip mall Or something like this And so (00:34:24): I talked about with Johnny, (00:34:27): the words we use in a sermon are theological signifiers to signify tribe, (00:34:31): but I think also we’re moving maybe post-word into like, (00:34:36): is it the worship music? (00:34:37): Is it these expressions? (00:34:39): Is it this way that we’re trying to copy each other? (00:34:42): And I think some of that’s tied up in we’re still holding to an attractional model of church. (00:34:46): And so in order to signify to people that we are a good church, (00:34:51): we’re a faithful church, (00:34:52): we’re the kind of tribe you’d want to be a part of, (00:34:54): there are these signifiers, (00:34:58): worship music styles, (00:35:01): lighting, (00:35:02): all these things that signify like, (00:35:03): hey, (00:35:03): no, (00:35:04): this is, (00:35:04): we’re this, (00:35:06): we are the cultural expectation, (00:35:08): please come in to what this is because you know what it is. (00:35:12): But that’s built on a (00:35:14): it’s christians from other areas or other churches coming to your church and just (00:35:17): continuing to move around yes so the the lack of place and contextualization was (00:35:25): not necessarily because of a lack of saying things that would make them distinctly (00:35:32): that place but that they were trying to be somewhere they weren’t in the sense of (00:35:37): like yeah yeah (00:35:39): Well it’s comforting you know I think about Fitch he’s gonna go to McDonald’s (00:35:43): everywhere he goes because he doesn’t have to think about the coffee menu (00:35:48): And that’s why McDonald’s works the way it works. (00:35:52): I mean, people have written, I think, about the McDonaldization of church as an easy target. (00:35:56): But there is a comfort for people knowing, (00:35:58): like, (00:35:58): I walk into a space and I know what the space is because it’s just like this space (00:36:03): in California or South Carolina or wherever it may be. (00:36:08): But it just happens to be in this, you know, rented space in a strip mall in Chicago or... (00:36:14): Yeah, (00:36:15): I think that’s really helpful, (00:36:18): Mike, (00:36:18): because with people that might be listening, (00:36:21): hearing that one of the ways to contextualize is to actually be where you really (00:36:26): are and don’t necessarily attempt. (00:36:29): Well, (00:36:30): and contextually, (00:36:31): the appeal is, (00:36:31): are you trying to appeal to some sort of internet-style Christian culture? (00:36:55): Or are you trying to appeal to the people who actually live in your area? (00:36:59): And appeal is a strange word here, (00:37:01): but are you trying to be contextual to your local geography and culture? (00:37:04): Are you trying to be relevant to some sort of perceived internet Christian culture? (00:37:11): Yeah. (00:37:12): Yeah. (00:37:13): I mean, we could riff on Christian music and worship. (00:37:16): I won’t go down that rabbit hole. (00:37:17): I mean, I could just go for a long time on that. (00:37:24): I was thinking about it this is this is related that in the last my last semester (00:37:29): at Northern in the master’s program I redid this office in my basement and I got (00:37:34): this paneling that looks like the paneling that almost every YouTube (00:37:38): influencer uses and it was because it was on sale and I was getting texts from (00:37:43): people in the zoom class like did you do that for your sermon I’ve actually (00:37:47): reconfigured my office because of what that paneling was signifying to people that (00:37:53): I was aiming to do so I’m when you when you open it up to those kind of cultural (00:37:59): references it’s really important to me that I’m not trying to put off this image of (00:38:05): what that I’m not that I am not (00:38:09): Wow, I want to see what your office view used to look like now. (00:38:13): I’ll send you the YouTube videos from some of those last classes. (00:38:17): Dolan Empoliu, he’s got really colorful strip lights that he just does not have on right now. (00:38:22): Oh yeah, that’s true. (00:38:23): From a church that closed, I have colored strip lights in my office. (00:38:27): I can turn it to Good Friday red really quick, man. (00:38:31): Okay. (00:38:32): Not yet. (00:38:34): Not yet. (00:38:34): Too soon. (00:38:35): Too soon. (00:38:36): Mike, you mentioned your thesis. (00:38:38): Can we talk a little bit about that? (00:38:39): Spend a little bit of time? (00:38:40): What was it on? (00:38:41): And I mean, you said it was on the church. (00:38:44): You planned it at the college. (00:38:46): So what was that kind of the focus? (00:38:48): Your research question? (00:38:49): I’m actually kind of embarrassed for both of you that you haven’t read it yet. (00:38:53): It’s kind of shocking. (00:38:56): Send it my way You didn’t stumble upon it at some point in all your doctoral research? (00:39:05): Okay, (00:39:05): yeah, (00:39:05): so I got kind of fixated on something when I was doing the doctoral program and at (00:39:12): the same time I was planting a church and actually I was part of planting two (00:39:15): churches but the one church in particular is a university church I know Gino, (00:39:22): you know the pastors that are there now so (00:39:25): Long story short I went to Loyola University to do some campus ministry and got (00:39:30): really integrated with the with the university system became like a contracted like (00:39:38): pastor so functionally the church looks like an intervarsity Christian fellowship (00:39:43): but but it is a church of all college students and the students that were there (00:39:52): 10 years ago are now the pastors and now they’re raising up the next generation (00:39:56): which is crazy we just celebrated 16 years a couple weeks ago and I went there and (00:40:02): I preached and I’m telling you my jokes do not land like they used to (00:40:06): It was the first time where I felt like I was dying on the vine. (00:40:13): I was doing an intro and I was like, oh my gosh, this is really becoming kind of awkward. (00:40:17): And I was eventually able to save it. (00:40:18): I was able to save it. (00:40:19): That’s good. (00:40:22): But I really became convicted that it wasn’t church indeed. (00:40:27): And I noticed how whenever we talk about college ministry, (00:40:32): men’s ministry, (00:40:33): women’s ministry, (00:40:34): we’re talking about the church. (00:40:36): But when we talk about campus ministry, we’re talking about the parachurch. (00:40:43): And so part of my critique was about the parachurch and how I think that’s a really (00:40:47): unhelpful distinction. (00:40:49): And the way this came up was a student came to faith in our ministry. (00:40:54): He asked me, how do you get baptized? (00:40:56): And I said, well, church baptizes you. (00:40:58): And he’s like, well, what church should I go to? (00:41:01): I can email some of the churches around here to get baptized. (00:41:04): And I was like, well, (00:41:06): You know, we’re doing Bible study. (00:41:08): We’re like doing a small group. (00:41:09): We eat together a couple of times throughout the week. (00:41:12): We’re fellowshipping. (00:41:14): You became a Christian through your lab partner who is part of one of our ministries. (00:41:20): I’m like, I think we’re the ones who would baptize you. (00:41:24): Like, why would I send this 18 year old down the street to join a church? (00:41:30): and be part of a service once a week when there are a hundred college students (00:41:35): worshiping on campus every single week. (00:41:39): So part of my dissertation is making the argument that it is indeed a church and (00:41:45): what is required to be the church. (00:41:47): I’ll say as an aside, the people that have the hardest time with this are evangelicals. (00:41:53): The people who find it to be the easiest are the Catholics. (00:41:56): Yeah, right. (00:41:58): Like the Catholic chaplains like (00:42:02): I didn’t have to explain it to them. (00:42:04): They assumed that’s what it was. (00:42:06): They’re like, well, why would any part of a ministry not be part of the church? (00:42:11): Why would you break those two things up? (00:42:15): They never had to be argued that it was a church. (00:42:17): They’re just like, oh yeah, you’re part of a tradition. (00:42:19): You do church things. (00:42:21): Yeah. (00:42:23): The people that we had the hardest time with is the denomination of the Christian (00:42:25): Reformed Church, (00:42:26): which didn’t have a kind of a polity imagination for that. (00:42:31): So I was spinning on that stuff. (00:42:34): I guess the last thing I will say is one of the things that really unlocked it for (00:42:37): me, (00:42:38): which has become a major conversation topic in the last 10 years, (00:42:42): is doing work around liberalism. (00:42:46): Liberalism being the philosophy of the individuated self, (00:42:49): the unencumbered self, (00:42:50): the autonomous individual. (00:42:52): And I would critique how the powers and systems of higher education were (00:42:58): counter-formation to the practices of the church. (00:43:03): And how what the university does is it’s not just a marketplace of ideas, (00:43:08): but it’s a marketplace of ideas. (00:43:12): of students where the university tries to distinguish themselves from other (00:43:17): universities in order to bring in some revenue and become a profit institution that (00:43:24): then puts students in the position of having to chase after the goals of capitalism (00:43:30): rather than the goals of the kingdom. (00:43:34): So Howard Watson wrote this book, The State and the University. (00:43:39): There’s another book by William Cavanaugh called Conflicting Allegiances, (00:43:42): but those books really were the linchpin for... (00:43:45): Big William Cavanaugh fans over here. (00:43:47): Yeah. (00:43:47): William Cavanaugh. (00:43:48): Torture in the Eucharist Top 10 books Amazing You told me about that Mike and I (00:43:55): read that a few years ago I was going to say Luke He was setting me up for my (00:44:00): Hauerwas Like every episode I have to mention Hauerwas Well you mentioned it But (00:44:05): William Kavanaugh But you said Kavanaugh too And now Luke’s all excited (00:44:10): Oh, (00:44:10): I love William Kavanaugh I probably just put everybody asleep No, (00:44:15): no, (00:44:16): no, (00:44:16): no, (00:44:16): no We are wide awake We’re wide awake I wanted to Actually, (00:44:19): I know we’re kind of pushing near the end of the time But I wanted to I wanted to (00:44:24): kind of reflect on that Just from some things that I observed I was a new Christian (00:44:30): And connected to a campus ministry That’s not how I came to faith But I had friends (00:44:35): that led one I was in a college town (00:44:38): And I really couldn’t understand this new thing that I was experiencing, (00:44:43): the church, (00:44:44): and this thing I was experiencing over here that was a parachurch ministry. (00:44:49): So what it felt like to me, (00:44:52): my observation was, (00:44:53): oh, (00:44:53): you guys just don’t like the church and you don’t like the parachurch. (00:44:57): Because what you said is really helpful to me. (00:45:00): Isn’t that just the church? (00:45:01): Yeah. (00:45:03): Is it that you’re just doing church light and you don’t want some of the (00:45:05): responsibilities or is there something else going on and so it makes perfect sense (00:45:09): to me that it would be evangelicals that couldn’t understand this because they’re (00:45:13): just trying to get you in on Sunday and that’s not all evangelicals but that’s how (00:45:18): they determine church whereas the Catholic way of like (00:45:23): life together is something a little bit different than just a Sunday service. (00:45:29): So where you attend on Sundays determines the church for some versus who you spend life with. (00:45:35): Which is a very clumsy ecclesiology versus a really robust ecclesiology. (00:45:40): It is. (00:45:41): It is. (00:45:41): But it’s a really good way of coming about naming that for us, I think. (00:45:47): It’s really interesting to me. (00:45:49): I mean, we kind of stumbled into it. (00:45:51): I mean, we were gathering for two years until we ever had a worship service. (00:45:56): I mean, that was never the goal. (00:45:58): It wasn’t to have a worship service. (00:46:00): But I do think the critique comes down to some of it’s about money. (00:46:05): But the other thing is about intergenerational relationships. (00:46:09): So I always admit, if you’re part of the church is called Agape. (00:46:14): Agape and Ecclesia in Rogers Park at Loyola. (00:46:18): So I’ll be really candid and I’ll say if you’re part of this church you’re not (00:46:22): really going to have intergenerational relationships for a couple years Also you (00:46:28): will not be here for longer than four years You’ll be here nine months out of the (00:46:33): year So this church is absolutely limited If it’s important that you be in that (00:46:38): kind of context where there can maybe be some more mentorship I mean we absolutely (00:46:42): had mentorship and we have mentors Then you need to go to a different church Mm-hmm (00:46:47): But just like I wouldn’t go to a church down the road and say, (00:46:51): you’re all white, (00:46:52): so this isn’t the church. (00:46:54): Or like the church out in the far suburbs, (00:46:58): you have 40 people and everybody’s over the age of 60. (00:47:01): We wouldn’t say that’s not the church. (00:47:03): So we’re not going to say to 100 college students, well, this isn’t the church. (00:47:09): We will say you are limited in some ways. (00:47:12): You’re going to be more immature. (00:47:13): You’re going to have less experience. (00:47:14): You’re going to have less money. (00:47:16): but this is still a faithful embodiment and the reason we would do that is because (00:47:20): then when we send students out we want them to do the exact same thing in their (00:47:24): context so if I send them to Philly if I send them down to Texas I’m going to say (00:47:28): find a church in your neighborhood become part of it do all the things that you did (00:47:32): here but you’re still part of the church we would say you’re not waiting to (00:47:38): graduate to become part of the church you’re part of the church now yeah that’s (00:47:41): good nice okay last question what are you reading right now (00:47:46): Oh, that’s a good question Okay, I just finished (00:47:52): okay guys I’ve been reading a lot of fiction that’s great we want to hear it we (00:47:56): want to hear it well okay well I actually am also reading I have a literature (00:47:59): degree let’s talk about it do you really I didn’t know that well you guys know this (00:48:05): one Bo Lim oh so good contextual okay I highly recommend pairing that book with (00:48:12): Mark Glanville’s Preaching in a New Key they fit so well together okay that’s my (00:48:17): aside (00:48:19): I need to read that before tomorrow because we’re interviewing him. (00:48:24): I just finished A Gentleman in Moscow, which is a piece of fiction. (00:48:29): And then, okay, I gotta give this book a recommendation. (00:48:32): I’m reading it again. (00:48:33): Or listen to it on audio. (00:48:35): The book How to Stay Married by Harrison Scott Key, which is a memoir, satire. (00:48:40): Yes, I’ve read that. (00:48:42): It is the funniest thing. (00:48:45): He has some chapters that have nothing to do with his marriage. (00:48:48): They’re just theological reflections because he’s a professor of English at SCUD? (00:48:55): Savannah’s... Where is that school? (00:49:00): Anyhow, I think that’s going to be SCUD. (00:49:01): Savannah College of Art and Design. (00:49:02): SCUD? (00:49:03): Boom. (00:49:03): Got it. (00:49:04): Yeah. (00:49:05): That book is so funny. (00:49:07): And he has some sections where he’s just waxing and waning theologically that are (00:49:10): absolutely beautiful. (00:49:12): Okay, Fitch is going to disagree with me. (00:49:13): I recommended him this book and he got through the first 10 pages and he’s like, (00:49:17): I couldn’t do it. (00:49:19): For me, it is how Hauerwas talks about marriage actually embodied. (00:49:24): It is the best example, I think, of embodied marriage. (00:49:28): It takes all the theology and lives it out. (00:49:30): And you will laugh (00:49:32): So hard and you will probably cry How to Stay Married by Harrison Scott Key (00:49:37): Fantastic book It also has some If I remember correctly I read it a few years ago (00:49:43): It has some great Reflections on Ecclesiological structures And what they mean For (00:49:50): embodied relationships To withstand Some of those when you find yourself Married to (00:49:56): the stranger you didn’t think you married Yep (00:50:02): Thanks for bringing that one up Thanks for being nerdy with us Oh man, (00:50:07): you guys are great I love that you guys are doing this Also, (00:50:12): great questions I wish Fitch and I could have this kind of rapport I mean, (00:50:16): fantastic Would you mind telling him that we have a great radio presence? (00:50:23): Yes, (00:50:23): episode one, (00:50:25): it scarred us for life that we were not radio-y enough, (00:50:29): which I think is code for we’re just too nice and like mutual in our relationship. (00:50:35): Yeah, yeah. (00:50:36): I don’t need to put you guys down to get lifted up. (00:50:38): You guys are doing great. (00:50:41): Well, we will end the show and then we’ll read some reviews out loud of your show. (00:50:51): What a delight What an amazing idea this podcast is It’s been fun Thanks for being (00:50:59): here Thank you This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

9. 

   29 Apr 2026

   Episode 05 - Why Ethnography?

   For Context: Ethnography Interlude Episode # 05 🎙️ Episode Overview Ethnography and Theology — Holding the Tension Together. In this special episode of For Context, hosts Gino Curcuruto and Luke Stehr dive into the unique intersection of ethnography and theology. They explore why social science is a critical tool for the modern pastor and how their personal research projects—ranging from church planting in Philadelphia to CrossFit gyms in Texas—revealed the hidden “backpacks” people carry into their faith. Listen in! Episode Highlights * Defining the Method: Luke breaks down the difference between quantitative sociology (surveys and big data) and ethnography, a qualitative approach involving participant observation, field notes, and semi-structured interviews. * The “Backpack” Analogy: Drawing from Clemens Sedmak’s Doing Local Theology, the hosts discuss how every person arrives at faith with a “backpack” full of cultural assumptions, family traditions, and past experiences that shape their theology. * Gino’s Research: Investigating why people stay at his church plant, The Table Philadelphia (https://www.thetablephilly.org). He discovered that the “pace” of the community and a deep sense of belonging were more impactful than the theological framework alone. * Luke’s Research: A study titled “Muscles, Faith, and Friends.” Luke immersed himself in a CrossFit-based men’s Bible study to observe how shared physical struggle facilitates emotional vulnerability and shapes masculine theological identities. * The Prophetic Voice: Why a theology must be firmly rooted in a local context to be genuinely prophetic. To speak truth into a culture, you must first understand its language and “embodied participation.” Resources Mentioned Doing Local Theology- Clemens Sedmak Writing Ethnographic Field Notes -Robert M. Emerson, Rachel I. Fretz, and Linda L. Shaw The Glass Church - Mark Mulder & Gerardo Marti Ecclesiology and Ethnography Network: https://www.ecclesiologyandethnography.net/ (https://www.ecclesiologyandethnography.net/) For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) (00:00:10): I’m Gino Curcuruto. (00:00:12): I’m Luke Stehr. (00:00:14): And you’re listening to For Context. (00:00:16): A podcast about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology. (00:00:24): Okay, (00:00:24): well, (00:00:25): we are doing kind of a shorter, (00:00:27): different episode today, (00:00:30): where it’s just Gino and I talking specifically about... (00:00:35): He’s here. (00:00:37): But today we’re just talking about ethnography and why it’s such an integral part (00:00:41): of Northern’s contextual theology program and why you would even do ethnography as (00:00:47): part of a doctorate where you’re focusing on theology. (00:00:51): Because it’s not, (00:00:52): I think we’re discovering that this program sits in a pretty unique space where we (00:00:58): are trying to hold some things together that don’t often get held together. (00:01:03): Yeah. (00:01:04): So, yeah. (00:01:06): Yeah, (00:01:06): I think the one of the questions that maybe people might have is like, (00:01:11): what is ethnography and then why ethnography? (00:01:15): I want to just say from the beginning that while I do have like a top three (00:01:19): favorite sociologists and ethnographers, (00:01:23): I think that I didn’t have a handle on that. (00:01:26): You don’t have to be that nerdy to do this program, by the way. (00:01:29): before I was unaware of the controversy between like the all theologians and social (00:01:37): science like I just wasn’t you know I didn’t I didn’t grow up in the church didn’t (00:01:41): grow up in those conversations of like now we’re gonna we’re gonna lose our (00:01:45): theology if we just move to what sociologists say or we’re gonna lose our (00:01:50): verifiableness if we don’t think like social scientists in the church and so I (00:01:56): don’t know Luke I don’t want to put you on the spot but like (00:01:59): Your experience with that, (00:02:00): your understanding, (00:02:00): or maybe even some responses to how these things are important together. (00:02:06): Yeah, I think there’s a growing familiarity with sociology in the church because I think... (00:02:14): But it’s more along the lens of a quantitative sociological approach. (00:02:17): And by that, I mean it’s analyzing survey data, watching kind of statistical trends. (00:02:24): It’s the administration of surveys and trying to get kind of the biggest. (00:02:28): Mm-hmm. (00:02:46): And I actually interviewed for that program. (00:02:48): I didn’t make it in, so that’s not really me bragging. (00:02:51): But I interviewed for that program years and years and years ago. (00:02:54): But it’s a quantitative program. (00:02:57): And so the focus of the program is in this administration of and making sense of (00:03:05): basically huge data sets. (00:03:07): So it’s a statistical analysis to try and make sense of what’s happening kind of at (00:03:11): a macro level across the board. (00:03:14): Yeah. (00:03:15): I’m a little salty because my proposed research topic, (00:03:19): and we’ve talked about this, (00:03:21): was the religious dimensions of the anti-vax movement. (00:03:23): And I proposed this in 2018, 2018. (00:03:30): And man. (00:03:31): You would have had like a National Institute of Health grant. (00:03:34): I would have, man. (00:03:37): So, Kevin Doherty, you could have had me. (00:03:42): Look at you. (00:03:43): Yeah. (00:03:44): So, yeah, I called out. (00:03:47): I have nothing but respect for that program. (00:03:49): But it’s a very different approach to sociology than ethnography, (00:03:52): which leans into the qualitative dimension of the social science. (00:03:56): And so, ethnography is not demography. (00:03:58): Demography being like the study of demographics. (00:04:01): It can make use of demography to help kind of formulate the background assumptions. (00:04:05): But it... (00:04:06): In some ways, (00:04:08): bleeds more into like a cultural anthropology lens in my mind and that you’re a (00:04:13): participant observer is kind of one of the hallmarks of ethnography. (00:04:17): So you situate yourself within a context. (00:04:20): Yeah. (00:04:21): At varying levels of participation, (00:04:23): and we can talk about that and how we conducted our ethnographies later. (00:04:28): But you situate yourself as a participant in a context where you let people know (00:04:34): that you’re observing them because you want to be ethical. (00:04:37): But then you take field notes. (00:04:39): So you kind of are trying to make some shorthand notes about what you’re observing, (00:04:44): what you’re seeing. (00:04:45): There’s a surprising amount of methodology behind how you do field notes. (00:04:49): Well, we read a book for Mark Mulder’s class called Writing Ethnographic Field Notes. (00:04:55): And it was a doozy of a book about how you take field notes. (00:04:59): And then you conduct semi-structured interviews. (00:05:01): So as you’re observing people... (00:05:04): As a participant, not some detached, objective person watching behind a one-way mirror. (00:05:10): You’re in it. (00:05:12): You also conduct interviews with people to get a sense of their experiences. (00:05:15): And then on the back end, (00:05:17): after you’ve done that observation and interviewing, (00:05:19): you want to basically use a coding process to pull together that data in a way that (00:05:25): starts to make sense of it. (00:05:27): So how do you start analyzing the themes that people... (00:05:30): Talked about the things that you noticed in the environment, the interactions. (00:05:35): Yeah. (00:05:36): That’s a very long-winded way to describe what ethnography is. (00:05:40): I think that’s a really helpful baseline for our conversation. (00:05:44): I mean, we’re not doing a podcast describing a class in ethnography. (00:05:49): We’re talking about ethnography in this program and our experience. (00:05:53): And so starting with that description of what it is, (00:05:54): I think when we talk about ethnography and theology – (00:05:59): it’s really interesting to me. (00:06:00): I have a very simplistic understanding of it as saying, (00:06:04): if we think that the church actually is a social institution in any ways, (00:06:11): then we could conduct interviews to see how people are functioning socially, (00:06:17): rather than just staying theoretical in our, (00:06:21): well, (00:06:21): this is what we believe theologically and (00:06:24): And we I see as a participant observer, (00:06:27): I see all the indicators that that’s working right as the pastor, (00:06:32): as one of the pastors. (00:06:33): But actually getting into doing the interviews and hearing how other people’s like (00:06:38): subjective response and experience. (00:06:40): And then you kind of gather this qualitative data to say, yeah. (00:06:45): Maybe there’s something here. (00:06:46): Maybe there’s something. (00:06:47): So for me, (00:06:49): I understand, (00:06:49): and we read, (00:06:50): we had some readings where we saw there’s this controversy between this, (00:06:55): and I never really felt that. (00:06:56): I felt like, (00:06:58): I’m not saying I’m putting one, (00:06:59): I’m not putting social sciences over our theology or anything. (00:07:03): I just think checks and balances seems pretty reasonable. (00:07:06): Maybe, I don’t know, is that too naive of you or... (00:07:10): No, I think we’re both contextual theologians. (00:07:14): Can we call ourselves that if we haven’t completed the program yet? (00:07:17): We can. (00:07:17): We can. (00:07:17): We are. (00:07:18): We will. (00:07:21): We are. (00:07:22): We’ve talked about this on other episodes. (00:07:24): One of the core convictions of contextual theology is that all theology emerges out (00:07:28): of a context. (00:07:30): And a context is inherently a social phenomenon. (00:07:34): It is the interaction of people. (00:07:35): And (00:07:36): process of doing theology is, in most cases, a social activity. (00:07:41): I don’t even think about, (00:07:43): like, (00:07:43): if I were to write a paper for an academic theology conference, (00:07:48): even if I was sitting alone in an office to do that, (00:07:53): I would be (00:07:55): interacting, whether with people alive or dead, through their written works. (00:08:00): And then I would then take that paper and present it and field questions and (00:08:04): navigate responses and have to respond to people’s assumptions, (00:08:08): questions. (00:08:09): So theology, (00:08:10): even at an academic level where we may be tempted to think of it as an isolated (00:08:14): individual doing an intellectual exercise, (00:08:17): is inherently a social activity between people. (00:08:22): And if you’re, I think, a committed Christian... (00:08:24): Unless you’re making it up. (00:08:26): Because if you’re a committed Christian, (00:08:27): you still believe that God is the God of the living and not the dead. (00:08:30): So even if you’re referencing the things that dead people have written, (00:08:33): you’re engaging in some sort of social activity with the retired saints. (00:08:40): Yes, that’s great. (00:08:40): There’s a discourse happening and that is social. (00:08:44): That’s a great way of putting it. (00:08:45): We don’t just make this up. (00:08:47): We don’t make it up. (00:08:48): Yeah, I’d love to go down there, but I want to stay on topic. (00:08:51): We took this class, (00:08:53): and part of the class was we got to, (00:08:57): with Dr. (00:08:58): Mark Mulder, (00:08:59): who’s a sociologist, (00:09:01): written. (00:09:01): written a number of books that are ethnographic studies and had us read others, (00:09:06): was fascinating and really exciting, (00:09:09): and then gave us the opportunity to kind of set us loose and say, (00:09:13): do an ethnography. (00:09:15): And we did. (00:09:17): We did wildly different ones. (00:09:19): And I want to talk about those. (00:09:20): But yeah, (00:09:22): I want to talk about those because we came as contextual theologians, (00:09:26): not sociologists. (00:09:27): I had taken one class in undergrad in sociology. (00:09:31): Loved it. (00:09:32): It was many, many years ago. (00:09:35): And so I’ll just say I’ll just say I I my ethnography was of the church that I (00:09:40): pastor that we planted and looking at interviewing people that were mostly leaders. (00:09:46): And we were asking the question. (00:09:47): We’re asking this question. (00:09:49): We know why people leave our church. (00:09:53): We have that data. (00:09:54): People often will come and tell us why we’re leaving. (00:09:58): Not always angrily or with hostility, (00:10:00): but just, (00:10:00): you know, (00:10:01): there’s, (00:10:01): you’re not this enough or there’s not this. (00:10:03): But I’d never asked the question and investigated, why do these people stay? (00:10:08): And so that was kind of my research question. (00:10:11): And it opened up so many things, (00:10:13): particularly more through the interviews than the participant observer field notes, (00:10:19): which were very difficult because I lead lots of the things that I do. (00:10:22): But that’s a method thing that we could talk about. (00:10:25): But my paper was (00:10:28): asking and investigating why do people stay? (00:10:31): Because I have ideas, (00:10:32): particularly as the planter and pastor, (00:10:34): I think like, (00:10:35): well, (00:10:35): they all agree with my design for the church. (00:10:38): That’s why. (00:10:40): And that is part of it. (00:10:41): But that wasn’t what I found. (00:10:43): So we could talk about that. (00:10:45): But Luke, we did different things. (00:10:48): What did you do yours on? (00:10:51): I did not set out to write about this. (00:10:53): This was like we had to go in and present our ideas to Mulder. (00:10:57): And I threw out a couple. (00:10:59): And the one I ended up writing about was the one he got super excited about. (00:11:02): And it was the one I was least excited about. (00:11:06): So, Dr. Mulder, if you’re listening, thank you. (00:11:11): But I had gotten invited to a men’s... (00:11:17): Bible study, for lack of a better word, happening in the context of a CrossFit gym... (00:11:23): Uh, (00:11:23): one person in my church was part of it, (00:11:25): but most of the people were part of other churches or not part of churches and (00:11:27): we’re just loosely connected. (00:11:29): So I spent the summer, I, I’ve never lifted weights in my life. (00:11:33): So I want to start that out. (00:11:34): I was not like an active CrossFitter when I started this participant observation. (00:11:39): Um, (00:11:40): so I went, (00:11:41): uh, (00:11:41): every Sunday to a CrossFit gym where I would work out with people who have arms (00:11:47): bigger than my legs, (00:11:48): uh, (00:11:50): And then sit down in a circle and do a men’s Bible study curriculum with them. (00:11:59): And so again, a very different type of participant observation. (00:12:01): So I was not writing field notes while I was working out the curriculum. (00:12:05): that they used was a video-based curriculum. (00:12:06): So I would basically sit down as soon as the workout’s over. (00:12:09): I can barely hold a pen because my arms are shaking. (00:12:12): And I would scribble down as much as I could remember from all the interactions I (00:12:18): was trying to watch. (00:12:20): Before the workout happened, what happened during the workout, what happened immediately after. (00:12:24): And so I wrote basically a paper studying the intersection of masculinity, (00:12:29): community, (00:12:29): and vulnerability within this setting. (00:12:32): And it was a really... (00:12:34): uh, just insightful process. (00:12:36): Uh, and I think I had the advantage of you were studying a group you were familiar with. (00:12:40): I entered basically a brand new group where I had no context. (00:12:44): I was a relative stranger to almost everyone. (00:12:48): Um, and just learned a lot, uh, in the process. (00:12:50): Yeah. (00:12:52): Yeah. (00:12:52): Let me, maybe, maybe just to frame, uh, the conversation on these so we don’t get (00:12:58): too deep into the papers, which maybe that would be of interest. (00:13:02): If people are interested, you can definitely access them. (00:13:04): You can read Gino’s on his substack. (00:13:06): We’d be happy to share it. (00:13:08): But I wonder if maybe some questions could be about method, (00:13:12): though we’ve kind of described that, (00:13:14): would be about what did we discover? (00:13:16): What did we learn? (00:13:18): And maybe what surprised us in that learning? (00:13:24): And then maybe our general thoughts, (00:13:26): maybe we could close our time with like, (00:13:28): what is ethnography and theology to us now that we had that experience? (00:13:32): Because I want to say thank you to Dr. (00:13:35): Mulder too, (00:13:35): because I found I really enjoyed this a lot more than I expected. (00:13:40): And I thought I was going to really enjoy it. (00:13:42): But what I learned really kind of is shaping me now. (00:13:45): So should I go first? (00:13:48): Should I answer my own question? (00:13:49): Or do you want to ask me a question? (00:13:53): Gino, why don’t you tell us? (00:13:54): I’m going to answer my question. (00:13:55): Why don’t you tell us? (00:13:59): I had this thought that people with our church, (00:14:02): without going too much into detail about the structure, (00:14:06): but we’ve talked on other episodes about the three circles and these kind of (00:14:10): localized communities as part of one larger church. (00:14:14): I thought that people would really be people that they would resonate with the (00:14:18): framework, (00:14:19): which was true, (00:14:20): but what (00:14:21): And what came out was the sense of belonging was what people... (00:14:27): And they named the belonging as a place where they were seen and known and (00:14:32): understood. (00:14:33): And that had aspects of like... (00:14:36): The ecclesiological structure was conducive to their belonging. (00:14:40): The theological, (00:14:42): like, (00:14:43): I guess some of our kind of distinct distinctions were our distinctive ways of (00:14:49): thinking about things were part of that. (00:14:51): But also the pace. (00:14:53): The pace of how we do life together and church was a big factor. (00:14:59): And so they kept using language that I thought they would say some of the things (00:15:04): that we don’t do well would be coming up at the surface and maybe getting in the (00:15:10): way of their belonging differently. (00:15:12): But what they what they seem to say was that actually we just need to keep doing (00:15:17): what we’re doing in some ways. (00:15:19): And now these are a lot of people that have been participating for a number of years. (00:15:23): So they have a little bit more of a grasp on that. (00:15:26): What surprised me, though, was the idea. (00:15:28): of the pacing being such a thing along belonging. (00:15:31): So we move at slow paces. (00:15:33): We’re not a growth-driven church, (00:15:35): though we’re not against growth, (00:15:36): but we want to learn a common language so that we can tell the truth to one another (00:15:44): and care for and shape discipleship in those ways. (00:15:49): And as a result, (00:15:49): I think one of the things that I was interested in researching further is how this (00:15:54): kind of ethos (00:15:56): of the church is antithetical to what I would call the church growth movement. (00:16:02): And which was also something that our professor has written on with the glass (00:16:06): church, (00:16:06): his book on Shuler and the others. (00:16:08): And then also his kind of partner in those books, (00:16:12): Gerardo Marti has written quite a number on a number of books, (00:16:16): ethnographies on churches. (00:16:17): Do you know how would you rate those books? (00:16:20): I gave them four stars until I was told that I had given them four stars. (00:16:24): Yeah, (00:16:24): Gerardo Marti called Gino out at a diner in Chicago over his four-star reviews of (00:16:31): his books. (00:16:32): So, Dr. Marti, if you’re listening, we have not forgotten. (00:16:35): And I thank you for letting me be there for that interaction. (00:16:39): He did. (00:16:40): He is such a gracious man and an incredible scholar. (00:16:44): He shared my post of my paper and he got it. (00:16:49): And then I said, you know, it’s like four stars. (00:16:53): That paper is like four stars at best. (00:16:55): So I derailed you, but I’m going to quote your paper to you. (00:17:00): Oh, wow. (00:17:00): Thank you. (00:17:01): Because I have it pulled out because I love you and I value you and your thoughts. (00:17:05): I’m actually going to quote one of the people you quoted. (00:17:07): And so just to get an idea of like, here’s the table. (00:17:10): You did these semi-structured interviews to kind of get at, why do you stay? (00:17:14): Why are we different? (00:17:14): And you’re talking about this tension between the church. (00:17:16): growth model and the way that the table operates. (00:17:19): And you have one of your leaders in your church said this, (00:17:24): I feel like we’re just not a traditional model. (00:17:27): I think on purpose, (00:17:28): because that’s, (00:17:29): I think, (00:17:30): a lot of people prefer a transactional church where they can pop in and pop out (00:17:33): when they want to. (00:17:34): They don’t want to have to be deeply involved. (00:17:36): For example, the way that we have a homily and then a discussion. (00:17:39): I love the discussion time. (00:17:40): We recently had a young man visiting say, this is awesome. (00:17:43): I love that you guys discuss a homily. (00:17:44): Are you kidding me? (00:17:45): I’ve never done this before. (00:17:47): He was so excited and got emotional about it. (00:17:50): And so you start to, (00:17:52): by interviewing, (00:17:52): you’re starting to kind of peel some layers back on what, (00:17:57): not just what do you as a leader in the congregation notice, (00:18:00): but what do the people in the congregation notice, (00:18:02): believe, (00:18:03): assume? (00:18:03): Yeah, yeah. (00:18:04): Yeah. (00:18:05): I’m going to comment on that and say that one of the beautiful things about this (00:18:11): experience for me was I feel like I do a lot of work in silence in some ways. (00:18:21): I’m not making any kind of negative statement about the people at the table, Philadelphia. (00:18:26): We just don’t have a lot of margin to talk about the things that we’re doing (00:18:32): because we’re doing them. (00:18:33): And some of those reflect. (00:18:35): So when I’m talking about church structure and strategy, (00:18:38): I’m often thinking about, (00:18:39): yeah, (00:18:40): I think this is working and that’s because no one’s complaining or, (00:18:43): you know, (00:18:43): I heard a couple of positives or whatever. (00:18:46): But what I don’t always know is, is it doing the thing that we were aiming for it to do? (00:18:52): And I sit down and do these interviews and I’m like blown away by the way that (00:18:56): these amazing people are describing this. (00:19:00): the way God is at work in their lives through the spaces that we’re opening up and (00:19:04): the intentional directions that we take. (00:19:08): And so that was just a huge positive because I thought, (00:19:11): oh, (00:19:11): actually, (00:19:12): they’re picking up a lot more of this than I may have been aware of. (00:19:17): And I don’t mean intellectually, I mean embodied participation. (00:19:21): They’re doing these things and have these stories to tell. (00:19:25): And I don’t always get access to every one of those just because of limits of time. (00:19:29): So if you’re listening and you’re at all involved in the church, (00:19:34): sociology is super helpful to kind of check and see if your theology is actually (00:19:40): working out to the ground the way that you wanted it to. (00:19:44): Yeah. (00:19:46): Yeah. (00:19:47): I think we read another book for Roxborough’s class, (00:19:51): which I think gets at this and why there’s this interplay of contextual theology (00:19:56): and why you would do ethnography as part of that. (00:19:59): So there’s this book by Clarence Sedmak, (00:20:02): and he writes that theology is always done with a backpack. (00:20:05): And in this backpack, (00:20:06): we find all the things that our family and friends, (00:20:08): our culture and tradition, (00:20:09): our training and experience have packed for us. (00:20:11): We have packed only a few things ourselves. (00:20:13): We hardly know about all the things we carry. (00:20:16): No question. (00:20:17): It is a mess. (00:20:18): Our backpack is full of things we do not use and it lacks other things we need. (00:20:22): It contains Proverbs we’ve heard, (00:20:24): the books we’ve read, (00:20:24): our memories of people and encounters and experiences, (00:20:26): and our favorite words and ideas. (00:20:28): No two theologians have the same backpack. (00:20:31): And so by doing ethnography, (00:20:33): what we’re attempting to do, (00:20:34): if we’re going to use Sed Mac’s analogy, (00:20:37): is we’re trying to open up the backpack of whatever, (00:20:40): maybe a congregation, (00:20:41): maybe it’s a men’s group in a CrossFit gym. (00:20:43): We’re trying to open up the backpack and pull out stuff and go, well, what is this? (00:20:47): And why is it here? (00:20:48): And what is it? (00:20:49): What is it doing in the backpack and how is it impacting how you’re carrying out your life? (00:20:54): So ethnography is an attempt to analyze the contents of the backpack. (00:20:58): Yeah, that’s great. (00:20:59): I just happened to find out that in the backpack were a lot of positive things. (00:21:04): And so if I could do if I had done more interviews, (00:21:07): if I could have done a broader, (00:21:08): I probably would have gotten to some of the the people that had some questions or (00:21:14): concerns. (00:21:15): So I think my paper reads way too positive and. (00:21:18): Because of what was in the backpack, (00:21:20): the experience of the others as well, (00:21:22): and how they were maybe living out those things, (00:21:26): which was greatly encouraging. (00:21:28): And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. (00:21:29): But I think sometimes that could become... (00:21:33): It could sound too aspirational in some ways, but it was good. (00:21:37): It was a good experience. (00:21:38): So how that’s changing me, (00:21:40): I think was part of my other question or how it’s changing is I am thinking about (00:21:44): further research. (00:21:45): I mean, we will be writing a dissertation and I probably will do the one. (00:21:48): work on our church. (00:21:50): I don’t know. (00:21:51): But I did submit this paper, (00:21:54): and I know you did as well, (00:21:55): but I’m not going to steal your thunder, (00:21:57): to the Ecclesiology and Ethnography Networks Conference and got to present on it in (00:22:03): Chicago. (00:22:04): And I further research, (00:22:06): I presented it more as a work in progress to say I want to expand because I think (00:22:11): there’s something to when I’m studying some social theorists about acceleration and (00:22:16): the pace at which life is moving. (00:22:18): And then when you think about AI, just kind of speeding things up. (00:22:23): And then giving people free time, (00:22:25): not just unemployment, (00:22:26): but I’m talking about if the computers do the computer things and people can do the (00:22:31): embodied human things in a most positive sense, (00:22:35): then the pace of our life is still going to change. (00:22:37): keep going fast. (00:22:39): And what does that mean for the church? (00:22:41): And what kind of counter witness could a slower paced church that says, (00:22:47): hey, (00:22:47): we’re going to move at the pace of relationship, (00:22:49): not the pace of society around us. (00:22:52): And so I’d like to dig into that more. (00:22:53): I think there might be something more there than what I initially thought. (00:22:58): That’s exciting. (00:23:01): I want to correct myself. (00:23:01): I said Clarence Sedmek and it’s Clemens. (00:23:04): I (00:23:04): Clemens said Mac. (00:23:05): Yeah, that’s right. (00:23:06): What was the name of that book? (00:23:07): Do you have that in front of you? (00:23:08): Doing Local Theology. (00:23:10): Doing Local Theology. (00:23:11): We read that for Roxborough, right? (00:23:12): Correct. (00:23:14): Yeah, that’s good. (00:23:17): Doing Local Theology was a fantastic book as well. (00:23:20): We should have a list of books in our show notes or something. (00:23:23): We’re going to have show notes. (00:23:25): We’re up in our game each episode. (00:23:28): Not just a transcript anymore, folks. (00:23:30): Show notes. (00:23:31): Show notes. (00:23:32): So I’ve read your paper. (00:23:37): I’ve seen you present on it. (00:23:39): There’s the spoiler. (00:23:41): I love your paper. (00:23:42): I love the work that you did. (00:23:44): I think it’s fascinating in so many ways. (00:23:46): Yeah. (00:23:48): what, what did you get surprised by? (00:23:51): What did you learn? (00:23:54): Oh man. (00:23:55): Uh, so many things. (00:23:57): Um, I’m such a man’s man, you know, we’re laughing. (00:24:04): I’m not, you can’t see me. (00:24:05): Your sarcasm might not come through on this episode. (00:24:08): I’m five 11 skinny. (00:24:11): Uh, I have better hair than half the women in my church and they would agree. (00:24:16): Um, (00:24:18): And you’re in Texas. (00:24:19): I’m in Texas. (00:24:21): And I don’t wear cowboy boots. (00:24:22): I don’t drive a big truck. (00:24:24): I am not a stereotypical man in Texas. (00:24:26): That’s where I live. (00:24:29): So I went really hardcore into the participant observer role that you do in (00:24:34): ethnography in that I quite literally showed up every week and did whatever the (00:24:41): heck you do at a CrossFit gym. (00:24:43): um i still don’t know what i did uh lifted some heavy things and almost passed out (00:24:48): a few times and all of that um and in the you know with the intention of like (00:24:55): there’s something happening here relationally between these men there’s something (00:24:58): going on uh with an emotional connection and a display of vulnerable like an open (00:25:06): vulnerability with one another that (00:25:09): was really surprising and so I part of ethnography and when you do an ethnography (00:25:14): is you review the literature and kind of the social science literature in your area (00:25:18): and so I delved a little bit into masculine theory which is not something I’d ever (00:25:23): really read much of I’ve read a decent amount of feminist literature had not really (00:25:27): read any kind of serious study of masculine theory learn there are actually a (00:25:32): variety of masculine theories and so it’s interesting to try and like okay well (00:25:36): what (00:25:37): what I actually see playing out. (00:25:40): Um, and then how is it impacting the theology of these men in this group? (00:25:44): And not just how’s it impacting, (00:25:45): but what’s the theology that they’re actually talking about, (00:25:49): that they’re embodying, (00:25:50): that they are letting guide and shape their lives. (00:25:54): And so honestly, I discovered a lot of things that are just intention that I think, um, (00:26:02): we don’t necessarily make a lot of space for. (00:26:05): We want to just say, like, complementarianism is bad and always has bad results. (00:26:11): I’m not a complementarian, so before you come at me, I’m not one. (00:26:17): But it was interesting to see people responding to super complementarian biblical (00:26:22): studies, (00:26:23): Bible study. (00:26:24): There was actually not a lot of Bible in it. (00:26:25): So... (00:26:28): It was interesting to watch them respond to that and then the conversations that (00:26:31): emerged afterwards and then also, (00:26:34): you know, (00:26:34): have that complementarian theology be taught. (00:26:38): But then to have this counterbalance of like, there are men who are just openly crying. (00:26:44): Like we’ve done a workout together and we’re sitting around and having a discussion (00:26:47): and they’re openly crying and... (00:26:51): talking about how it’s okay and good for men to be emotionally expressive and to (00:26:57): support one another and to hug one another and to like have rich, (00:27:01): deep connections with one another and how that’s necessary. (00:27:04): And so it was just really interesting to walk into this space where I really didn’t (00:27:08): know anyone, (00:27:09): which I think helped me. (00:27:10): Like I was definitely a participant, (00:27:13): but I also got to kind of have that role because I’m so new to the group. (00:27:16): I definitely have this observer role. (00:27:18): And it was a little more natural for me to like be quieter and hang back and just (00:27:22): kind of watch things. (00:27:25): I think of I’m sorry, I just interject. (00:27:28): I think of that statement like you don’t judge a book by its cover kind of idea. (00:27:35): When you when I think about. (00:27:37): What I envisioned as I knew you were doing this because we were in class together (00:27:40): and you’re doing these notes and I’m thinking like my expectations of CrossFit in (00:27:45): Texas kind of with this Bible study video curriculum that I was like, (00:27:51): I don’t like any of these people. (00:27:52): They’re not going to be my, that’s not going to be my people. (00:27:54): And Luke is going to have a hard time. (00:27:56): And so I just want to, (00:27:57): I want to try to connect this, (00:27:59): or maybe you can do it of like, (00:28:02): as a contextual theologian, (00:28:04): how important it is for you to show up and be present and listen and participate to (00:28:10): understand more about what’s going on than what I might assume wrongly about (00:28:17): muscles, muscly guys, lifting weights. (00:28:20): My paper is called Muscles, Faith, and Friends. (00:28:23): There it is, yes. (00:28:25): Muscles, Faith, and Friends. (00:28:27): Watching a very, like, complementarian... (00:28:32): Loosely Bible study curriculum that and so what I’m what I’m trying to communicate (00:28:38): is I might differ with every aspect of this and you might, (00:28:44): too. (00:28:45): We might have like a counter. (00:28:47): for everything but when you were there you saw goodness and beauty and and things (00:28:52): happen that was surprising probably to you but actually to me it was even more (00:28:58): surprising as a non-participant like you just telling me this is what i saw so i (00:29:02): don’t know can you speak to that a little bit more i think there’s and maybe this (00:29:08): is like on a pastoral side and then i’ll try to speak to a more academic side like (00:29:11): you can’t pastor people you don’t love um (00:29:16): And so I think part, (00:29:18): and then on the more academic side, (00:29:19): I don’t know that you can really do ethnography well if you’re not going to try and (00:29:22): empathize. (00:29:25): And so I think part of allowing yourself to be a participant observer is to allow (00:29:29): yourself to observe and be aware of the emotional experiences of the people that (00:29:38): you are participating with and observing and allowing yourself to (00:29:46): Just appreciate those for what they are, (00:29:48): to let them be what they are, (00:29:50): and not to judge them for what they’re not. (00:29:54): There’s a lot that was said in the Bible study I didn’t agree with. (00:29:58): There’s some interesting theological things that got said. (00:30:03): I think I only interjected once, and that was part of my... (00:30:07): I had a church member there that... (00:30:09): something was said that it was like this is not at all okay like and all the things (00:30:14): that i think are not okay this is really not okay and i’m gonna say something and (00:30:17): like it was basically like a prosperity gospel uh like man if you just do (00:30:21): everything right and you don’t swear and you work hard jesus will bless your life (00:30:26): um and mike you’re rich and i’m like (00:30:28): yeah no jesus says life gets harder if you follow him uh more wonderful but yeah (00:30:38): harder like this is not easy and so yeah do i agree with every single thing that (00:30:45): was said nope i don’t and it’s actually okay i don’t have to agree with everything (00:30:50): because i can also recognize that like (00:30:52): Even if I disagree with the contents of this Bible study at the end of the day, (00:30:55): I’d encourage a lot of them to go home and be loving and supportive husbands and (00:30:58): devoted fathers. (00:31:00): And I may not agree with the assumptions that got them there. (00:31:04): Yeah. (00:31:05): Yeah. (00:31:06): And I’m not a pragmatist, so I’m not trying to argue that the ends justify the means. (00:31:11): Right. (00:31:14): Go ahead. (00:31:14): I’m sorry. (00:31:15): I can appreciate that group for what it is and those people for who they are. (00:31:19): the key thing to me that you said is like, is, is how this cultivates empathy. (00:31:24): And if it doesn’t, (00:31:25): I mean, (00:31:26): that, (00:31:26): that’s, (00:31:26): that to me feels like a statement about the intersection of theology and (00:31:32): ethnography, (00:31:33): because I can imagine you could be a social scientist and not necessarily have to (00:31:38): have any empathy for what’s going on, (00:31:41): but the, (00:31:42): the kind of the environment that you were in, (00:31:44): what they were doing and who you are as a person, (00:31:47): um, (00:31:49): That connection, (00:31:50): because I was talking about my prejudgment of people and you going in and finding (00:31:57): that you can be empathetic as you’re in a space, (00:32:00): is what we talk about as followers of Jesus to be present. (00:32:04): to see how God is at work in a space. (00:32:08): I think this is why I find ethnography so helpful to cultivate these skills of (00:32:14): awareness, (00:32:15): of observing. (00:32:16): And then also you’re talking about the connection as humans, which is beautiful. (00:32:20): Yeah. (00:32:21): And then I think on the theological side, like, (00:32:24): we have to recognize everyone is a theologian. (00:32:25): That’s the backpack that Ted Mac is talking about. (00:32:28): Everyone’s coming with a backpack and that’s their theology and it’s shaped by so many things. (00:32:34): And there may be some things in their backpack that just really aren’t good. (00:32:37): Um, but I can’t, (00:32:40): help bring about a more good beautiful and true theology if i don’t understand (00:32:45): what’s in their backpack yes and i can’t like and i think even said mac talks about (00:32:50): like there’s a prophetic role here and he’s talking about jesus challenging local (00:32:54): culture and said mac in doing local theology says jesus raises his prophetic voice (00:33:00): after having been introduced to the local culture he does not start from scratch (00:33:04): genuine prophecy has to use familiar concepts in order to have an impact (00:33:10): Only a theology firmly rooted in a culture can be genuinely prophetic in that culture. (00:33:16): Prophecy is effective when it reorganizes knowledge already part of the culture. (00:33:20): To stand completely outside is to be ignored. (00:33:24): Thus, (00:33:24): the more contextually rooted a theology, (00:33:26): the more acute can be its prophetic voice and action. (00:33:29): So I can’t speak to the theology of a group of people. (00:33:33): whether they be the table philly or a group of jabronis doing crossfit when it’s (00:33:39): 115 degrees outside in dfw um unless i enter into that space and i start to try and (00:33:45): understand what they’re bringing in and that’s why ethnography and theology go (00:33:50): together yeah amen amen the the um (00:33:57): Also, (00:33:57): with that, (00:33:58): I was thinking that the idea of being in a context, (00:34:03): we’re not just talking about a linguistic thing, (00:34:05): like knowing the language. (00:34:07): I feel like a lot of theologians want to just say... (00:34:11): You’ve got to know the language and then you can speak the truth to them. (00:34:15): I think there’s a relational thing. (00:34:16): That’s why I want to come back to empathy. (00:34:19): And it’s not merely they’ve got to know that you love them before they will listen to you. (00:34:24): It’s partially that. (00:34:26): There’s something about, in a world of antagonisms... (00:34:31): And all of these things like being present in some ways demonstrates that you’re (00:34:36): not going to bolt as soon as there’s controversy. (00:34:39): You’re not speaking something so that they will change and you can leave. (00:34:43): You’re saying, I want to unfold and unwind. (00:34:47): our differences here. (00:34:48): I feel like that’s how prophetic words in context are very helpful, (00:34:54): is I don’t see, (00:34:55): maybe you do, (00:34:56): I don’t see a lot of people instantly changing when people (00:35:01): People are being truth tellers to them in some way. (00:35:03): I see people going, (00:35:05): wait, (00:35:06): but if that means if you’re saying this, (00:35:08): I have to change this about my life and I’m really scared about that. (00:35:12): What do I do with that? (00:35:13): And then we have to like be present. (00:35:14): You see what I’m saying? (00:35:15): Like there’s. (00:35:16): And I think that’s why your point is so important to me, (00:35:20): that of being present, (00:35:21): of having the understanding through the ethnography of what actually is happening (00:35:27): here in this culture, (00:35:29): and then the theological understanding to speak into that through the language of (00:35:34): the culture and in the place with presence. (00:35:38): Yeah. (00:35:41): Couldn’t have said it better if you were David Fitch himself. (00:35:44): Oh, geez. (00:35:45): That’s problems. (00:35:46): That’s problems. (00:35:47): So you submitted your paper and it was accepted to the same conference. (00:35:52): Actually, three of us from our cohort, which is like... (00:35:54): Which is super exciting. (00:35:56): Super exciting. (00:35:58): really, really proud of both of you. (00:36:00): Uh, I only got to, I got to see our other cohort members presentation. (00:36:03): I didn’t get to see yours, so I’m very sorry. (00:36:06): Um, and I only got to see the end of his cause we presented at the same time. (00:36:10): Uh, (00:36:10): but, (00:36:11): uh, (00:36:12): yeah, (00:36:12): what, (00:36:13): I mean, (00:36:13): it was just truly exciting to get to, (00:36:16): to share what I’d worked on. (00:36:18): Um, I honestly expected more like critical pushback than I got. (00:36:23): I know that that experience varied for all of us. (00:36:27): Um, (00:36:28): But I think it was exciting for me to see that my paper gave people hope for the (00:36:34): men in their lives. (00:36:36): And that there could be significant spaces for men to experience deep human (00:36:42): connection with one another. (00:36:44): And I think one of the things we have maybe lost... (00:36:49): And I think men’s ministry and women’s ministry often get this wrong. (00:36:53): So I’m not trying to... (00:36:55): do this uh but i think we’ve neglected the significance of homosocial relationships (00:37:00): relationships between people the same sex platonic homosocial homosocial (00:37:04): relationships um (00:37:08): And I think for men, (00:37:09): especially what this paper shows is there’s a real necessary component for, (00:37:16): I think, (00:37:16): one of the things that fueled the emotional connection was an intense shared (00:37:20): experience of struggle. (00:37:23): And I think that’s fairly well documented. (00:37:25): So that’s not a shock. (00:37:27): But I think if we’re thinking about, (00:37:28): you know, (00:37:28): if you’re someone out there running a men’s ministry for your church, (00:37:31): don’t just always make it a breakfast. (00:37:33): Yeah. (00:37:35): Think about some sort of shared physical tactile activity because I think you will (00:37:41): see some sort of opening up afterward. (00:37:45): So pair that with your emotional disclosure time, whatever that may end up being. (00:37:50): Yeah, that’s good. (00:37:52): That’s good. (00:37:53): I think maybe as we kind of wrap up our time on this one, I’m thinking – (00:37:58): I want to share a little bit and then maybe you could as well about just being in (00:38:02): that academic conference. (00:38:03): I’d never presented a paper before. (00:38:05): Maybe you have. (00:38:06): Nope. (00:38:07): OK, so it was new to both of us. (00:38:09): We threw our names in there because we’re like, hey, this was really interesting. (00:38:12): And one of the things that I thought was fascinating was. (00:38:19): with the three of us being there from this class, (00:38:22): we had a perspective that was very church centric. (00:38:25): I mean, (00:38:26): I know you were doing a men’s ministry, (00:38:27): not your church, (00:38:29): but it was like a representation of we’re not sociologists trying to understand (00:38:34): religion. (00:38:35): We’re, we’re church people trying to understand humanity in some ways. (00:38:41): And, and I’m not, I’m not taking anything from any of the other presenters. (00:38:44): There’s some amazing work there, but, (00:38:47): But I found so much hope (00:38:50): for the church in the conclusions that we and others made in that. (00:38:56): And so I was surprised and encouraged by that. (00:38:59): But I also thought if we weren’t there, (00:39:03): I’m not sure how much the voices of the everyday pastor would be included. (00:39:10): And it’s not because they’re excluding it. (00:39:12): This is a group, ecclesiology and ethnography. (00:39:16): They’re not just all social scientists. (00:39:17): Yeah, they want to bring it together. (00:39:18): Yeah. (00:39:19): They want to bring it together. (00:39:20): And they’ve been doing this for a while. (00:39:21): And I just found it such a welcoming group for someone with very low academic (00:39:25): credentials, (00:39:27): but a high view of the church and ethnography. (00:39:31): And so my experience was really, (00:39:33): really positive, (00:39:34): even though it was definitely disrupting me in a lot of good ways. (00:39:39): Yeah. (00:39:39): Yeah. (00:39:40): I would agree. (00:39:41): And I think I would say to anyone out there who’s leading in a ministry context, (00:39:46): these tools are so helpful. (00:39:48): They’re so beneficial. (00:39:51): I think learning to be a good ethnographer can only help you as you try to be your (00:39:57): congregation’s theologian in residence. (00:40:00): Yeah. (00:40:01): Yeah, (00:40:02): it’s going to give you the tools you need to understand how to open up people’s (00:40:06): backpacks and not in a way that’s like you’re going to rip it off their shoulders (00:40:09): and start dissecting what they’ve got. (00:40:10): But a way to journey with people and start understanding what they’re carrying as (00:40:14): far as background assumptions, (00:40:15): culture, (00:40:16): stories. (00:40:17): uh kind of what’s under the water what’s under the surface and so i would say uh (00:40:24): maybe you have started listening and you’re like maybe this program’s for me do it (00:40:28): yeah look into the contextual theology program at northern and that’s my shameless (00:40:32): plug for it because it’s changed my life it’s made me a better um a better pastor (00:40:39): just to be able to understand what what is going on what is (00:40:44): the thing that people are carrying with them? (00:40:46): And how do I understand that? (00:40:47): And now how do I speak to it in a way that they can receive? (00:40:51): Man, that’s good. (00:40:53): I want to do an episode with you one time where we talk about the ways this program (00:40:56): is changing us as humans or helping us as humans in ways, (00:40:59): because I think about almost every single day, (00:41:02): something I’ve learned from this program or the MATM program, (00:41:06): Theology of (00:41:06): mission um it helps me relate with my kids all gen z-ers and like understanding (00:41:14): these like constructs of everything it’s just really helpful so yeah but i also (00:41:19): want to just thank everyone for listening and uh go ahead and give us a review (00:41:23): we’ve never asked for a review but we because we’re not really great at these whole (00:41:27): podcast things but we want you to like and share and give us a review we’ll take (00:41:31): negative reviews just give us a review it’s super helpful (00:41:35): And if you’re on Substack, subscribe. (00:41:37): Yes. (00:41:37): Because I don’t think you can really review a podcast on Substack. (00:41:40): But anywhere else, leave a review. (00:41:43): So thanks for listening. (00:41:44): We’ll catch you next time. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

10. 

    15 Apr 2026

    Episode 04 - Jonny Morrison

    For Context: Dr. Jonny Morrison Episode # 04 🎙️ Episode Overview On this episode, we welcome another program grad in Jonny Morrison. Jonny is a pastor, writer, and church planter based in Salt Lake City, Utah. He’s known for his integration of theology, culture, and everyday life in ways that are thoughtful, creative, and accessible. Whether preaching, writing, or hosting conversations, Jonny is passionate about helping people develop a bigger imagination for God, experience the radical love of Jesus, and learn to recognize and join God’s work in their everyday lives. This conversation digs deep into the class on leadership from Dr. Alan Roxburgh. From there we discuss atonement theories and contextual theology. Another brilliant guest and discussion. Listen in! For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Jonny Morrison: Prodigal Gospel (https://jonnymorrison.substack.com/) * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) * Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) Episode Transcript Gino Curcuruto: I am Gino Curcuruto Luke Stehr: I’m Luke Stehr Gino Curcuruto: And you’re listening to For Context, Luke Stehr: A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology. Gino Curcuruto: On this episode of For Context, we have Jonny Morrison. He’s a graduate of the Contextual Theology program. He’s a pastor, a writer, a church planter based in Salt Lake City, Utah. And whether he’s preaching, writing, or hosting conversations, Jonny is passionate about helping people develop a bigger imagination for God, experience the radical love of Jesus, and learn to recognize and join God’s work in their everyday lives. This was a fantastic conversation and I hope that you will listen in and enjoy it yourselves. Welcome back to For Context. I’m Gino. Luke’s here with me. You want to say hi, Luke? Usually I talk Luke Stehr: Hey everyone, all five listeners. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Our guest today is Johnny Morrison. Jonny, excited to have you on. Would love for you to just maybe introduce yourself to our listeners and we’ll tell ‘em why we’re having you on later, but I think it’ll become very self-evident as you speak. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, yeah. It’s so good to be with you both. Excited to be a part of the podcast, as you said. I’m Jonny, I’m in Salt Lake City, Utah. I’m a pastor of a church here called Missio Day, written a couple books, Prodigal Gospel and Light Is Air, and I was in the doctor of Ministry contextual theology program, graduated in 2021, so I think I got a walk right after COVID, which I feel very grateful for. So we actually got to walk. We were masked, but we got to walk, Gino Curcuruto: But you got to walk Jonny Morrison: And none of our classes were disrupted by COVID, so nothing was on Zoom. Everything was in person. I wrote during COVID. I was kind of like the perfect cohort for that moment. That’s a great window. Yeah, it was perfect. We went to a Cubs game. This is not what you asked, I’m sorry. Gino Curcuruto: No, this is great. Tell the story. in Chicago when we were there to graduate and it was the first Cubs game that was open to the community, so the energy was insane. It was the best time to graduate. There was so many people there. Bill Murray comes out and sings “Take Me out to the Ball Game.” It’s like the city opens for a moment and then I get a walk and I was like, this is the best experience That is the first good story around COVID and education I think I’ve ever heard. So thank you. My heart is warmed. Luke Stehr: You just, like, hit that window perfectly. Jonny Morrison: I just feel so grateful because then I was with them, I was talking to some friends who did the program almost right afterwards, like Jim Pace and they were on lockdown for so long and they had one of my favorite classes they had to do on Zoom and it sounds like it was one of the worst classes because they had to do it on Zoom with Roxburgh. But I loved that class and I loved being with him. That’s why I was like, that would be brutal. Gino Curcuruto: Also, that class, that particular section of that class is kind of legendary in the lore of Northern Seminary. Yes, Luke Stehr: That’s probably another podcast. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, I won’t go into it. Luke, you could ask Jonny a question, change the subject. Luke Stehr: Well, while we’re on the subject, what was your favorite class? That’s one of the questions we would’ve asked at one point, so we’ll just get into it now. So why was your time with Alan Roxburgh so formative? What stands out to you about that class? Jonny Morrison: I loved my time with Roxburgh. That class I thought was so helpful. Roxburgh was so the way he thought was so helpful to me, he could think so historically, so contextually and he had such a power of narrative, historical narrative to be able to lead us to a moment in time. And I’m in the program at such a fascinating moment. I mean everybody probably says this, but I’m in the program at such a fascinating moment. I start 2017, 2018, so I’m the everybody’s wrestling with how did the Evangelicals vote for Trump? Everybody’s wrestling with what is this doing to our communities? And then we’re about to enter into, well, we’re already entering into Black Lives Matter movements. We’re entering into a reckoning with racial and gender justice in the church and then the pandemic is about to happen. And I felt like Roxburgh, I’d read lots on race, I’d read lots on critical theory. What Roxburgh did though was give me a historical accounting that I felt was so helpful to hold those things together. It was like, I mean to do contextual theology and then to give tools, which is Fitch does this very well too, but to give tools about engaging in the neighborhood really well, and I loved the level of rigor that Roxburgh required. So Roxboro was also my supervisor on my thesis and I loved working with him again, which I was warned against it. People were like, “he’s really intense.” I was just grateful. I was like, He sent my proposal back to me like fourteen times though that’s not even an exaggeration. It just kept coming back again. I felt pretty grateful for. I’m still really proud of my thesis in the end, but that was my favorite class maybe by far. Luke Stehr: That’s awesome. So for people who maybe have never thought about contextual theology, have never read anything by Alan Roxburgh, how would you give a Cliff Notes version of his accounting of history that you referenced? Jonny Morrison: That’s a good question. So Roxburgh’s work is broad and I think that you could, there’s a lot of things that he’s talking about, but a lot of what he is wrestling with is the leadership structures of churches and maybe you could say the corporatization of local churches and the professionalization of clergy and how did clergy become sort of a management class versus stewards of the spirit. And that’s I think so much of his work if I was to simplify it is about that, like, when did seminary become about training managers and executors versus training midwives and artisans? And one of the languages is detectives of Divinity Roxburgh’s also a real poetic, which I’m such a sucker for. And so that’s so much of his work and I found that that’s ended up being what I wrote on in my own thesis is that was the exact question I was wrestling with in our local context is why did we have the imagination for pastoral leadership that we did and what were the other options available to us? Gino Curcuruto: I want to dig, Question into ask. Luke Stehr: That was a beautiful answer to that question. Gino Curcuruto: Beautiful. I do want to get into a little bit more about your thesis, but first, if it’s okay, I kind of want to hang out in this Roxburgh space. Jonny Morrison: I’m happy, I love it. Gino Curcuruto: It it’s, it’s great timing. That was our last seminar and so full disclosure, Luke Stehr: We’re working on our papers for him, Gino Curcuruto: We’re working on our papers. He also Luke Stehr: Subscribes to this, so if you’re listening, Dr. Roxburgh have mercy on us. Gino Curcuruto: I found his class very similar. It was fantastic. And his ability to just put any, he was just asking us what’s on your mind? What are you experiencing is what it felt like. Then he would just go back in history and bring us up to the current time, whatever the subject was. The breadth of his knowledge and his ability to put it inside of a narrative like you’ve said was amazing. I’m also thinking that if you’re not thinking as a contextual theologian, you may totally miss the value of what he’s doing as just a guy telling stories. Jonny Morrison: Yeah. Gino Curcuruto: Does that make sense? Yeah. Jonny Morrison: Oh, Gino Curcuruto: Totally. Jonny Morrison: It’s almost like a history class if you don’t understand contextual theology. Gino Curcuruto: And because he’s a more seasoned, experienced theologian and philosopher, it’s just like, here’s the old guy telling us stories from the old days, but that’s not at all what he’s doing and his ability to give us maps for things and be poetic. And so I’m not sitting here just trying to compliment Al Roxburgh, though I will. I was just going to say, I think that the idea of it being contextual theology that he’s inside of what he’s doing, his leadership teaching is really important and I think that some people, I won’t speak for anyone in our class, but I’d wonder if historically through this, if there have been people that have missed that and just thought, “That class was just a bunch of stories. Let’s move on to the next one.” Jonny Morrison: Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. I think that people, when we did the cohort, I remember people wrestling with his reading list. It was, I don’t know if it’s the same list, but you had books like Cosmopolis and you had some other ones that were sort of narrative historical accountings of the philosophical moment that we find ourselves in. And I think people often wrestled with, this is not kind of as you named, it’s not straight theology and it’s not even about our moment. And so then I think people were like, “Well, what does this have to do with now?” But I do feel like Roxburgh was giving us a map of all the wilderness spaces sort of around the moment so that we could kind of find our way and understand how we got to where we are. And again, I found myself so dependent and so thankful for his work and for Cosmopolis is the one that comes to my mind. I referenced it a ton in my thesis to understand how we got to the modern moment and then the bibliography shaped so much of my later research and reading and even the paper that I wrote for that class, which was probably fine, but it had such an impact on my thesis later where I don’t know that many of the other papers I wrote so directly impacted it. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, that’s good. I think he has updated the list a little bit, but I happen to be familiar with that book from another class that I took and had to read. So that Cosmopolis is great, but I could imagine if that’s the book and you’re doing a history of philosophical thought into modernity that you’re going, “Where’s the theology bro? What are we doing here?” Jonny Morrison: What was the other one? I probably have it somewhere. It was something at the eye and it was about the, I remember it was such a large part of it was about the development of grid systems in Europe and roadways. Do you have it? Gino Curcuruto: Yes. Seeing Like a State Luke Stehr: We we’re talking about Seeing Like a Stat which basically the premise if you don’t want to read this book, which you should, is basically clarity only exists for the people at the top of hierarchies. Jonny Morrison: Yes. Gino Curcuruto: That’s a great summary. Jonny Morrison: That’s a great summary. That’s what I don’t know. I loved it. I loved that class. I think even the reading was like you are wrestling with something. You’re like, I’ve never, my seminary experience maybe didn’t bring me these resources, but they just felt so shaping and helpful and clarifying to, again, leadership structures in the local church. I mean especially in 2017, 2018, what I was witnessing politically around me, it felt like such tools to make sense of the world. Gino Curcuruto: Guys, this is totally a tangent, but I love that book. Seeing Like a State, it was so helpful. And then I read an essay from Stanley Hauerwas, here we go. It’s not a podcast with me if I haven’t mentioned Hauerwas, and it’s called an essay. He wrote “How Not to be a Political Theologian” and he references one of the author’s other books about being an anarchist as a way of entering into being a Christian political theologian. Anyway, we’re already in the weeds, but I just want to tell you, I would’ve never even known who that was if it wasn’t for Al Roxburgh. So I understood the conversation because without reading, this Jonny Morrison: Podcast has just become an Al Roxburgh fan club, which I’m here for Luke Stehr: Me too. But as we think we keep talking about contextual theology, I’m aware that someone who just stumbles on this may not have a clear framework for what that is. They may have heard of systematic theology or they may not know that theology and biblical studies are even different disciplines. So for you, Johnny, how do you just when someone’s like, oh, you got a degree in contextual theology, what’s that? What do you say? Jonny Morrison: That’s a good question. I’m still working on my elevator answer to that question. Luke Stehr: Me too, so I’m trying to steal yours. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, we’ll do this together. We’ll workshop it together. I like to try to explain it as theology that takes two very serious convictions with it, which is that we stand in line with a tradition and we speak to a place. And so I feel like it’s theology that’s in conversation with two different groups of people. And then we could add so many other dimensions like the living spirit of God, but my community matters to the theological work that I’m doing and the place that we all come from matters to the theological work that I’m doing. And so a good example of this is we’ve done a lot of work in our community around atonement because a lot of our folks come from evangelical-ish environments where penal substitutionary atonement is the only atonement theology. And so what I’m trying to do with them in that moment is actually less about penal substitutionary atonement. It’s specifically and more about the contextual theology that got us there and why in evangelical churches, that’s the only atonement theology that you’ve ever heard of, even though church history has many options, and these are contextual theologies, like Luther is developing penal substituionary atonement where the reformers are to deal with contextual realities and does that help us engage with our contextual reality? So I feel like I’m using this all the time and it’s like where we came from, where we are having a dialogue between those spaces. I know that’s less complicated than Fitch’s contextual theology graph that I never could understand exactly, but that’s the way I would summarize it. Gino Curcuruto: That’s fantastic. Luke Stehr: Yeah, it is. Well, I think it’s so helpful too as we think about contextual theology, one of the kind of affirmations of the discipline is that all theology is inherently contextual. And so when I think about it, when I talk to people about it, I talk about the earliest Christological statements that make use of Greco-Roman philosophical terminology to explain Christ. Those are contextual theological choices. They’re using language, cultural images of the time in order to explain the theological concept., So all theology is contextual. So how do we make sense of the cultural factors both then and now? I think that’s a really helpful way. So let’s talk atonement, cause you’re in it. You’ve written books on it, you think about it a lot. So as you think about kind of on the ground theologically, how do you do a contextual theology of atonement for now and for the location you find yourself in? Jonny Morrison: That’s a great question. That’s a great question. Yeah. I’m sort of obsessed with atonement and I’m getting more obsessed with atonement. And I think it is actually for contextual reasons. I mean there’s the Christian reasons like the saving significance of the cross for my own sake and there’s being a pastor and all that. But I think contextually it’s so important because the cross for my people, and I imagine this is true for so many people who are listening in their churches, is often a symbol of how terrifying God is, not how loving God is. And so then I feel like that’s what started to make me obsessed with this thing is the very central symbol in work and act of our cross. When I would do contextual work, listening to our people, having those conversations, sitting down with folks who come from a myriad of traditions. I’m in Utah, so we have former LDS people, we have Catholics, we have Evangelicals, Baptist, Presbyterians, Methodism, everybody’s kind of forming here. And I’m hearing that story consistently. So that’s what made me obsessed was the initial contextual work of why does this symbol that John says in 1 John 4 is the revelation of the love of God. Why does it invoke such terror in our community? And so maybe the first part of that is a contextual theological read of our community is that the cross is a kind of a wound point for us. Then the thing that I did next and I’m doing with our community actively, and I’m writing about this on my substack a lot, shameless plug there is I’m trying to do a historical survey of atonement theology to introduce a bit of epistemic curiosity to our community who have never heard that there is other atonement theologies. I’m not even trying to take shots at PSA in this work. I’ve done that other places. I’m almost trying to level the playing field though and to be like, “do you know that the early church didn’t hold to PSA?” All the writing around the early church is a theory that looks far more like recapitulation theory thanks to St. Irenaeus and it’s narrative and it’s embodied and it’s participatory. And then you get to ransom and Christus Victor models, and again, sin is debt and guilt are way less significant parts of that narrative than they are around bondage, enslavement, forces of evil. And you’re like Joel Green, the theologian, talks about a kaleidoscopic view of atonement. If that’s all I could give you that would be beautiful, cause you’d have a bigger view of atonement, and I think that’s a contextual work. It’s absolutely contextualizing all of it together. So that’s a long answer. Gino Curcuruto: No, that’s good. I want to keep going, but I want to just interject some of my own story in this and have you kind of riff on this. So I didn’t grow up in the church right before I turned 30, I became a follower of Jesus, spent eight years in a church that was very much like Reform Baptist kind of thing. And so I say all that to narrate this moment. It was the moment when I realized that the church did not begin 500 years ago and what that meant for my atonement theory, I was simultaneously, and maybe this is something that is very prevalent in your context, it is in mine as well. I was simultaneously really pissed off and more excited about Jesus than I’d ever been ever. But I didn’t have a map of where to go. And then I was trying to as a wasn’t a theologian at the time, I was working as a chiropractor and I’m a dad. I’m like, what do I study? What do I do? And so I know you’ve probably wrestled through this. I’m not asking you to tell me what’s the best resources, but if I’m the person in your congregation, if I represent anything like that, and you’re developing these contextual theology around atonement of atonement theories, I understand what you just said is really helpful to that. But maybe dig in a little bit deeper with someone with that kind of story if you could. Jonny Morrison: So something I have found really effective because been doing so our community is so similar, Gino, to what you just said, we can get to this later, but Missio Dei, the Church that I pastor is a church plant of a church called Imago Dei in Portland, Oregon. Imago Dei is the very first Acts 29 church plant. So we are Driscoll’s great grandchildren in a sick twisted universe. And so that is our story. So let’s just talk about contextual work. And we were always different because Imago leaves A29 before it kind of becomes a really big movement around the issues of women in ministry. It wants to ordain women in ministry, not as elders, but as pastors, and they leave over a very specific woman, my co-pastor. It’s not like an abstract conversation, it’s about does Heather Thomas get ordained and now she’s my co-lead pastor. So again, we’re deep in the world of contextual, but it means that so many people from that community come with that neo reformed atonement. Almost like in my thesis, I describe it as an evangelical emerging and neo reformed perspective because a kind of deconstruction that’s happening, there’s an aesthetic of questioning and then a really reformed foundation that you’ll run into eventually. So all that to say that’s exactly what they come with. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Jonny Morrison: So one of the things that we have found really helpful in that is to try and get to the root of what atonement is and see it as a banquet table with many dishes on it. And we have been fed basically only one dish for many years. For 500 years we’ve all been kind of really honing in on roast chicken and that’s PSA and is it good? Totally. It’s fine. We could prepare it a little differently, absolutely. But there’s actually lots of other dishes on the table and atonement is the full table. The phrase atonement is an invention of a word by William Tyndale when he is translating his English Bible to make sense of this complicated Hebraic and New Testament context, boom, contextual theology. And he invents a word to try to translate that to his context by taking the phrases at one and mint and putting it together to express what the cross does. And we found this really effective in our community to be like at the very foundation, the table that is laid is a story about how the cross makes us one with God and one another. And this is actually what we all agree on Greek Orthodox Catholics, protestants of almost every stripe. That’s actually the thing that we sort of agree on. Now we get real fighty as soon as we come out of that and that’s fine, but can we get back to that foundation? And I found that with our folks who come out of that reforms perspective, that’s almost like a bit of a safety raft, which is like, okay, Gino Curcuruto: Yeah Jonny Morrison: This is what scripture says the cross does, and that gives me enough room to start to look at the rest of the dishes that are on the banquet and see how they’re a part of that at-one-ment story. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, yeah, that’s so helpful because to me that sounds like something that’s true all the way through and opens up space to leading to some unwinding as Fitch might say, of some of the things. Because I would say that when you eat that particular roast chicken all the time, it has particular effects on your emotional health and physical health in certain ways. Don’t want to stretch out the metaphor so it becomes unusable. We don’t have to go there, but I just say that it’s really interesting when you’re not saying no to that, but you’re saying yes, and which is what I find that as I’m interviewing people and talking to people, that’s what contextual theologians seem to say more than any other Christians that I know is like, yes. And have you heard the other person’s story? Have you heard this story? Let’s take that all into account. Jonny Morrison: Well, I think we go back to that definition of contextual theology, which is you do theology in a place and that isn’t abstract. These are your people. And I dunno, you can condescend them all you want to in your head, but that doesn’t help you do anything with them. It doesn’t help you do life with them. And people with deeply held PSA convictions and other really reformed or Southern Baptist convictions are in your church or I dunno, if you’re doing church in a Jesus centered way, they should be. And if they’re not, you actually have some other contextual questions to ask yourself. And I think I found it didn’t help my own heart to see them contemptuously. And so at some point I had to take responsibility as maybe this is another Roxburgh term, is it an artisan of a new humanity? I didn’t take that responsibility serious and be like, if I can dream something, I have to include them in the dream and I don’t get to reject them. I’m responsible for them also, not in a paternalistic way, but just like, this is my home, this is my people, Luke Stehr: Yeah. There’s a commitment there and I think that’s the stability that Roxburgh would write about. And so many others have written about stability in those cases too. And I don’t know if you’ve read his latest book, I think it was certainly a kind of cornerstone of our conversations in January when we had him. But yeah, it is that stability piece of like this is the people and this is who you have to work with. So Jonny Morrison: Whether we like it or not, Luke Stehr: Unless you’re my church members, in which case I love you every day. Jonny Morrison: That’s right. Luke Stehr: But yeah, and I think that’s just an amazing way to frame it. I think for everyone that atonement is this table and there’s so many dishes on it. Are there, I think there obviously the different atonement theories come out of different cultural moments. Do you feel that there is maybe one or two atonement stories? I think that’s how James William McClendon frames them. He calls them atonement stories, not theories. Are there one or two atonement stories that fit our cultural moment better or in a really hyper-local sense? Your context in Salt Lake City better? Jonny Morrison: Yeah. Oh, what a great question. That’s so fun. I am becoming a bit obsessed with recapitulation theory, which is one of the earliest known church theories. We associate moth with St. Irenaeus who is a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. So there’s good reason to value this theory way back. It goes way back and it may represent something that looks like what the early church was articulating to one another. One. I just find it beautiful because it’s an atonement theology that incorporates incarnation to ascension and Pentecost and second coming for sure. But we’re just like, we got to frame it somewhere because the whole thing is about incorporation into the story of Jesus or into the life of Jesus. Irenaeus doesn’t use story language, but I think contextualizing it to our modern world story is maybe the most helpful way to think about it. But it is this notion that Christ is the new Adam who there’s a substitutionary component there, a solidarity component there who lives the story humanity was always meant to so that humanity can then re-participate and that story is recapitulated in Christ. So then there’s this heavy participatory element to that atonement theory, which I find in our context, and I would imagine true in many other people’s context is so empowering because one, the cross has been often framed in western spaces as a one time event. But Irenaeus is saying that the life of Christ is an ongoing invitation for all of us to participate in something, to pick up our cross, to join the new humanity, to live a renewed story. It’s like Christ is Aragorn where humanity had been Isildur and in the Aragorn rejection of the power of the ring on the cross also, we get to be participants in new Gondor. We get to live a new kingdom. And I find that so compelling. Irenaeus also talks a lot about healing and healing of wounds, Which he’s way before a trauma-informed atonement theology, but that is what he’s speaking about is that the fall, he calls it the old wound, which I just think is so beautiful in that humanity is arrested in their development. He’s so sophisticated for a dude who’s writing in the second and third century and that in the story of Christ we get to a development is freed so that we can be mature and whole and flourishing. And I know again, contextually I think that has so much power to people who want so much more I think in life than what is offered to them. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, yeah. They see, I’m sorry Luke, do you want to go? Luke Stehr: Go for it man. Gino Curcuruto: I was thinking about the opportunities that I have to spend time. I teach inside a prison theology and Bible inside a prison, and then just friends that I have that are in recovery after addiction and maybe aren’t familiar with the term recapitulation, but are absolutely pursuing a new story. And the connecting point that is so valuable is saying like, Hey, the people of God, the people that are created are always walking in a story that has a starting point before them and many of us don’t do it well, but what would it look like to actually consent to someone else incorporating you into a better story in some way or living it out or So even that healing idea of atonement that there is a true and greater atom who did it in a way without flaw and then gives you a blood transfusion in a sense to heal not only your infection of sin, but also to give you renewed life in a new way. I love that. Also, the last thing is I never hear a church named Recapitulation Church. We got Redeemer, Renewal, all of these churches, but there’s an R word that the church has not really latched onto, so maybe your work will do it. Jonny Morrison: Maybe our people are already confused enough about our church’s name being Missio Dei. I don’t know that we need to add another level of complexity and theological nuance to our church naming. Luke Stehr: Valid. Oh man. Some of the things I think about as you’re preaching, as you’re teaching, as you’re helping people understand the ins and outs of recapitulation theory, like you’re talking to a person in your church who’s like, “how do I talk about this with my friends who don’t know Jesus?” Or you’re in Salt Lake City, so it’s safe to assume your people are bumping into a lot of Mormons. How do you teach people to talk about recapitulation theory and just a natural not Irenaeus kind of way? Jonny Morrison: Yeah, I’ve, other than when doing a historical survey of atonement theories, I dunno that I’ve ever used the word recapitulation on stage. So that’s maybe the first Luke Stehr: That’s probably wise. Jonny Morrison: And we do a lot of preaching training in our community and have invested in this a lot. And so high value for me is to strip our language of religious veneer, jargon or Christianese, and this is true, I think everybody should do this, but Utah is a fascinating context in that. So we’re in Salt Lake City. Salt Lake is, I think It is quite a progressive city. People often think about it as maybe like Utah itself, but it’s better thought of as Austin in Texas. It’s a city in rebellion to the conservatism of the state around it. And so we were the 12th city to legalize gay marriage back in 2008, and then our governor vetoed it at the time. So then our state was, it only became legal when it became federal. So that’s our state’s tension all the time. And I think we were one of the first cities in the United States have a queer mayor. So there’s this real progressivism in the city that’s always budding against conservatism, but it’s a progressivism, all that to say that is shaped by a post-Mormon religious context, not a post-evangelical or post-Catholic or post-mainline. And that already sets us up into a fascinating dynamic. And then the city is populated by so many transplants. Like many cities, young people want to live there, they want to be there. There’s a college, a big college, and then we’re an outdoor state. And so many young people move to Utah, take their first major job or second major career job because they want to ski and they want to hike and they want fish and whatever. So I say all of that to say that Missio is a community that is shaped by that religious heritage, like post Mormons who have deconstructed Mormonism evangelicals who have deconstructed evangelicalism, folks who moved here and couldn’t find a Catholic church, and we were the most liturgical thing around. So they started coming to us. That’s the strange dynamic of the community. And even my staff is a really good example of this. I grew up Pentecostal, found anabaptism in college. I’m like a Pentecostal Anabaptist. And then solid, my co-pastor Heather grew up in a tiny Anglican church in England and then helped plant an emerging neo reform church. And then it’s here today, our third pastor is a 62-year-old retired Presbyterian USA pastor, and then my staff is Foursquare folks. They’re all over the place like megachurch folks who, so I say all that to say is a long answer to say that I really want us to use language that cuts through tradition because you cannot assume that people in the room understand the word the same way you do. And so that’s why we’ve done so much work around atonement in part is like what do we mean when we use the word atonement? What are we saying when we talk about the cross? What do we believe the cross is accomplishing? And at its most basic, at its most foundational, and one of the things that we talk about a lot, this is where I’ll close, is that so John talks about this is in the letter from John 4, 1 John 4, he talks about how this is how we know what love is that God sent his son to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins. And then he goes on to say, God is love. So this is the primary way that we would talk about atonement is that the way in which scripture describes to us atonement is that it is the great reveal of God’s love. It’s not the only reveal, but it is the perfect snapshot of God’s love for us. And so then everything else we understand has to have that Jesusy other oriented sacrificial love on it. What the scripture says is the primary reveal. And for us that’s so important because Mormons have a very unique understanding of who Jesus is. But evangelicals, Baptist Presbyterians, we all bring that, and so it’s like what holds us, and it’s like the cross reveals that God is like Jesus, and that’s going to be our big atonement crux. So there’s lots of other things I can say there, but I just feel like I talked to you for 30 minutes. Gino Curcuruto: No, that was great. You really had me at just the idea of staying away from certain language so that you could communicate well, and I was just thinking about how much of our work is translation in so many ways and just listening to how you are thoughtfully going about doing that was just a real encouragement to me. So I was just listening. You could go longer as far as I’m concerned. That was really helpful. Oh, thank you. Luke Stehr: I’d be okay with that. Jonny Morrison: It’s interesting. I’d be interested to hear you guys’ thoughts on this. Translation is also an interesting work because doing contextual theology with people who are religious, there’s a kind of way in which they want certain religious words used also. And so one of the things I’ve had to learn in this work is that the pushback is sometimes that we don’t use the religious word enough, and so then because they don’t hear the symbol that represents a whole world of meaning behind it, all that front stage backstage stuff, you guys did that with Roxburgh, they don’t hear the front stage performance that indicates all that. Then they’re like, oh, you’re not actually talking about sin. That’s the big one. If I talk about wounding and trauma and systemic injustice or racism, but I never used the word sin, then they’re like, oh, you didn’t talk about sin at all. These all good stuff, but where’s sin and where’s the cross. And you’re like, yeah. You’re like, oh no. Gino Curcuruto: Yes, I can relate to that particularly around that word sin of, but also maybe this is another episode, but even my own personal Anabaptist non-violence kind of convictions that I’ve had multiple conversations with people that visit on a Sunday and they’re like, I love this church, but I’m really uncomfortable with the non-violence. I’m trying to understand what that means. You want me to be more violent? You are not a violent anyway. Let’s just stick to the sin one maybe. Yes. That’s a’s something about it makes me question whether people are listening for the symbolic gestures to what they already believe or are listening to the thought. What I hope is a thoughtful presentation on how we’re bringing joining with the spirit together and using language. So it’s not that Johnny and I are pro sin and we’re just going to keep it under wraps by not using the word, we’re just trying to use language that moves away from individual guilt as the only imagination for what sin might be. Is that a fair assessment? Luke Stehr: Yeah, I think that sounds fair. And as I’m listening, as I’m thinking, I think people are looking for these theological signifying words. I think in the American development of Protestantism, once you start moving past Appalachia and into the frontier, I mean churches were not elaborate spaces. They were pretty simple structures. And there’s almost a virtue once you get past the east coast of a simplicity and architecture in particularly Protestant life. And so in the absence, if you’re a Roman Catholic, you’re going to walk into a Catholic church or an Anglican church even, or an Episcopal church and you’re going to walk in, you’re going to see stained glass, you’re going to see a baptistry font as you come in. Maybe there’s going to be a certain layout out to the architecture that’s actually going to let you know that you’ve entered a certain kind of theological space where your theological expectations will be met. And this is, I think, true across Catholicism. For one of the classes we took with Mulder, I went to a Vietnamese Catholic church in town, and even at this super Vietnamese Catholic church, I walk in, it looks very Vietnamese, but I know that I’m in a Catholic church. Well, Protestants don’t have that kind of defining visible architecture. So I think in the absence of that, particularly in our emphasis on the spoken word as the main component of worship, we rely on those signifying words to let us know that we’ve, Gino Curcuruto: But we just lost your Mic, but I was going to say that as Luke’s saying that he’s going to come right back on here. There. Yeah, there you are. I’m sorry, Luke. I was just going to say that I think that’s really important because what I should have said also is that it’s not wrong for people to want to have those signifiers because of what it means for them, right? Contextually is I need to know that I’m safe here. And most of us, we don’t have those other symbolic gestures other than our words, especially in Protestant spaces, and most of us, including myself, are too impatient to have the time to hear each other out, for lack of a better term. Jonny Morrison: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I would be interested, Luke, to tap in on what you just named and hear what you guys think about this. So I want to present a theory, like a contextual theological theory to you about the future of the church and have you dialogue with me about it. So I think that what you just named is so true about spaces feeling like churches, and I think that will become more important to a de-churched people, not less, and I think that the missional, I love the missional movement, but its emphasis on home spaces misses this pretty large that my Gen Z friends who come to church are very nervous to just show up at a home. They actually really want a religious space as the first place to welcome into and to clearly see it as a religious space, and so for Missio, but they want to do, okay, maybe one more point add this. So they want to do it in a way that is maybe stripped of some of its baggage. So this is the trick. I think that has to be the line that has to be walked. So Missy, our church, our space has a very specific design to it that is meant to do some of the things that you just named Luke. So our room has a really long communion table down the middle of it that’s always there. We do communion every single week, and that is the center of our space. Then we do have a stage, the play, kind of like the orientation of word, and then on its left side is a baptismal font that’s always there. It on its right side is a prayer station which forms across, so there’s a cruciform nature to the space. The chairs are oriented, so they’re kind of angled towards one another, which is again, so that there’s a participatory element, and then the design of the stage is very simple, but it’s all this geometric shaped hardwood because we are in a warehouse, but we’re in a warehouse in which the presence of God is. And so we have the sense that God redeems spaces, but makes them fully what they’re supposed to be, not less than they were supposed to be. Then there’s the lobby, and then the lobby faces a big prayer chapel, which has big glass windows, that same geometric shaping, and then a view of the window that we exist for, or a window that shows the city that we exist for the city. We built the building, you had a view of the capitol, and then immediately afterwards a parking garage went up. So now we have a view of a parking garage and apartment buildings. So all to say something about that, that’s our space. And thankfully more apartments have gone up in front of the parking garage. It was, we built the space and it was finished in 2015 for a full year, had this beautiful view of the capitol and it was like, ah, so cool. We’re praying for the city. And then end of 2015, the parking garage starts going up and we’re like, no, it’s just big concrete six story edifice or whatever. But all that to say, so we’ve alluded to your point, we have tried as a contextual experiment to be very deliberate about the design of our space. Our services are actually quite liturgical while being, we would say our tradition is Anabaptist, charismatic liturgical, those three streams sort of shape the feel and texture of our church. And so I’d be interested, yeah, this is like here’s our experiment, and I’m putting on the table in front of you is our contextual theological church planting pastoring experiment that we’re trying to do. I think it’s the future of the church. That’s my premise. Luke Stehr: Yeah, no, I think you’re right on the money. I think the first thing that came to mind is the success of Knives Out: Wake Up Dead Man just had this huge cultural moment, and it’s such an overtly religious film, but it’s Rian Johnson is not religious. He grew up religious, he grew up Christian, but he’s not anymore, but just makes this profoundly religious film. And so I think people actually want to feel that. I think there’s a Canadian author, and I can’t remember the name, but I think it’s like Wisdom from Babylon or Wisdom from Exile, something like that. But one of the things he talks about and argues for is that as we move into these increasingly post-Christian environments, which are only going to increase, even hearing heard Ed Stetzer speak two weeks ago, but even he was very explicitly clear revival is not happening, which so to hear Stetzer say that the decline is only going to continue people, but in that kind of cultural environment, people actually want to know what the feeling is. I live in a context where Islam is growing pretty quickly, so I think I’m in the heart of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex in my city alone. We’re the third largest city in the metro. There are five mosques and the first Spanish language mosque opened in Fort Worth, and so Islam is growing, but you know that you’ve gone to a mosque. There’s no doubt about the space that you’ve entered into what’s happening there. I think people actually desire some sort of tactility to a space. I think in a time when people actually don’t know the narrative of scripture, don’t know the theological language, the words as signifiers of tribe or identity don’t mean anything, and you could argue that we’re moving into a post-literate society or whatever, but there’s a reason people started using stained glass and used statues and used art in religious spaces, and it’s because it communicated it was the signifier of the kind of space you had come into. And so I think that’s only going to become more essential. I think routine practices of communion, regardless of your tradition. I’m at a Baptist church when I came, we were doing quarterly. I made a push. We moved to monthly, and I feel really good about that. I’d love to do it more because it’s the most concrete and tangible expression of what happens in atonement that you can do week over week. And so even if you’re preaching some bonkers passage out of Haggai, you’re still going to do communion and you’re still going to convey what happens in a really tangible way that makes sense narratively, but maybe in a way that’s not necessarily aimed at a literate sense of meaning. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, I think that’s so true. No, no, I think that’s so true. Our liturgy, and this is so shaped by Fitch, this is, I think doing work in his class really helped me shape our, we were always a bit more liturgical, but I really started to hone it more and more. And so All of it’s written in-house unless we, sometimes we’ll pull prayers from the book of prayer from scripture specifically, but it’s all contextualized for our people in our community. I think what Luke you just named is we’re trying to narrate the story of scripture and invite people to participate in the good news embodied, and that all has to happen contextually. So you’re called to worship, then there is music, then there’s moments that are for the community. Then we do multiple collective prayers in the service, and then the table comes after the sermon. It’s like the chief responsiveness, the prayer station is open. Then there’s doxology and a benediction always. And so the goal being that there’s a movement to the service you’re invited in to know and experience the goodness of Jesus. You’re centered on the table where you belong to one another and to Christ, and then you are sent back into the city, the people of church. And I think about Fitch’s three spaces being like, you have to have the second two spaces. And I think the missional church where I was so shaped by theologically, we emphasize those two so well, and then kind of forgot the value of the closed circle to use fitch’s language or that first space and the learning in experimentation. And I think with younger communities, you still value religious spaces. It’s like, oh, the social architecture of the church all has to be operating pretty healthy and you can’t overemphasize the Sunday, but you also can’t deemphasize it because of the formational power that I think it has still in our communities. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, there’s definitely been, I’m familiar with those same missional movements if we use quotes around them that you are was formed in that myself as once to quote Luke Stehr: Roxburgh from when he taught us the missional church is dead. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Did he say that? Luke Stehr: He did. Gino Curcuruto: He’s working on what is mission post missional movement, I think was what he said he was working on now, interesting. But the idea of almost, I hate to use the idea of a pendulum swing, but my experience was many people were just moving outwards so much as a rejection of what they were experiencing in those Sunday settings as being highly just attractional light, not really significant in many ways. And they were just saying, actually, we can just be with our neighbors. And embodied presence has value, which the church had been saying since the beginning. It’s just not our American west churches. And so now there are some that are just moving so inward that they might also now be saying, come and see our experience of the liturgy. I’m not making this claim about you. We’re highly liturgical with our Sunday gathering too. And so by you naming the three circles, I feel like that’s the healthy thing a church exists in multiple spaces because a church is made up of people that do more than just hang with their neighbors or invite their neighbors to a Sunday worship. So I think that’s really helpful. But what I was also keying in on the two of you’s conversation, just so I can reflect, was that the importance of having something beyond what is spoken to signify What this space is, who these people are, what they represent, and I think there is a hunger for that more than I’ve seen in my own lifetime. Jonny Morrison: Yeah, I think in some ways it’s about reclaiming the purpose of those spaces, having all three, this is again, so thankful for Fitch for this work. It’s like you have the full embodied social architecture of the church knowing that one space alone is not enough, and then you reclaim the purpose. Evangelicals made the purpose of the Sunday entertainment. I know that’s not what they would say, but that’s what they did. And if the purpose of the Sunday is, this would be my pitch, it’s about imaginative formation really shaped by Brueggeman in that and by other political theologians. If that’s the goal, then the Sunday needs word. I think we have to be good proclaimers of the gospel. You actually need to hear the good news to help us story it, to renar it. But it also has to be embodied, and it has to be, I think there has to be an imaginative music component, a practiced component, a participatory component, and that all then, I mean this is all Fitch. It all then frames when we leave and we enter into the second space to have a place to practice it. But it’s all the same things. The metaphor we use here a lot at Missio to help people understand this is that Sundays are sort of like physical therapy. I’m your physical therapist or the other pastors or your trained physical therapist, and we’re going to walk through all the practices of the Christian life in a highly curated fashion. We’re going to gather the table, we’re going to practice confession. I’m going to proclaim the gospel. But if that’s the only thing that this ever does for you, it’s just not enough for wholeness, for healing to get back on the mountain and ski again or to run your marathon again, you have to then go to the second space, which is the gym with your homies, and you have to start doing table there again, all this all fits. So grateful for him in this. And then even that space isn’t for itself. That space exists for everyday life. You go to physical therapy, you go to the gym. This says Utah, so that you can ski again, right? You tore your ACL, let’s get you hall and back on the mountain so that you can ski again, so you can climb again. So you can go to work and live the gospel so you can be in your neighborhood embodied presence. But I do think you actually need those first two spaces to get you to that third one at least to get you there as strong as possible. I guess I’m continue using the metaphor. Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. Luke Stehr: Okay. Well, last question. What are you reading right now? Jonny Morrison: Great question. So as we talked about earlier, I’ve been so in the world of Atonement, and I have a podcast called Prodigal Pastor, and I’ve been interviewing people about atonement. So I’m reading Michael Gorman’s book right now, the Death of the Messiah, the Birth of the New Covenant, which is his, he’s offering kind of his own model of atonement, which is really fascinating. That one’s very fascinating too, because most of the book is actually about practicing atonement, and so it’s like reclaiming baptism and all these kind of old practices that sometimes in Western atonement models they don’t have a place for, but his is like, well, they’re essential, right? You die with Christ, you rise with him. What does this mean? So that’s been really, really good. I’ve been reading that. And then I’ve also been on a weird fantasy kick, so I’m reading a book right now. This feels like a different take between, it’s called Between Two Fires, and it’s like a Catholic, medieval novel that takes place in real Europe, like an actual place during the plague. And then it’s kind of like, it’s all framed by deep religious superstition around the moment. What kind of fear would’ve emerged during the plague and how that would’ve shaped your view of God and one another. But then it’s a story, it’s a fantasy novel, and I have been absolutely delighting in it, so Gino Curcuruto: That’s awesome. That is. Wow. Oh, Johnny, this has been so good. This has been Rich. Enjoyed this conversation and know that we could probably continue, but you I’m sure have other things that you need to do today, Luke Stehr: No one needs a two hour podcast. Jonny Morrison: That’s fair. Gino Curcuruto: But thank you so much for coming on with us and sharing some wisdom. It’s been really, really good. Jonny Morrison: Oh my gosh, you guys have been so fun. To be here and to talk to people in the program, that’s always a gift I miss. Maybe that most of all is being able to hang out with the cohort and chat through theology and we’re reading, and thanks for doing this, and huge shout out to everybody who’s been involved in the program. I feel so grateful that it exists. I think our church sort of exists because of it, so I’m really indebted to Fitch and all the professors and grateful you guys are here telling the story. Luke Stehr: Yeah. Well, thanks for being here. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

11. 

    1 Apr 2026

    Episode 03 - Jon Massimi

    For Context: Dr. Jon Massimi Episode # 03 🎙️ Episode Overview On this episode of For Context, Dr. Jon Massimi, another Canadian, joins Luke and Gino to discuss contextual theology. Jon is a graduate (second cohort!) of the Doctorate in Ministry in Contextual Theology program at Northern Seminary. They discuss how contextual theology works in every day life by changing our posture toward our neighborhood. Whether the conversation is focused on the Eucharist or AI and Pentecostal memory, this episode is worth your time. Listen in! For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) Episode Transcript Gino Curcuruto: I am Gino Curcuruto. Luke Stehr: I’m Luke Stehr Gino Curcuruto: And you’re listening to For Context, Luke Stehr: A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology. Today on For Context we have Jon Massimi. Jon Massimi is a professor, speaker, and experiential learning designer who helps leaders, educators, and the curious turn experiences into insight and connection. His work explores how faith community and the gifts of ordinary people can reshape how we face complex challenges. Gino Curcuruto: I loved having this conversation and I know you did too. Luke, this is a great episode and I hope that you all listening enjoy it as well. Luke Stehr: All right, Gino. Today we’ve got Jon Massimi who’s here with us. Jon, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about yourself, where you are and how long ago was it that you went to Northern? Because I’ve never met you. I don’t know that Gino’s ever met you, so I think it’s been a little bit since you graduated. Jon Massimi: Well, I find myself in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada. Before that, I was in a town called Branford, Ontario. I’m mentioning that because it is the birthplace of Wayne Gretzky and since nice, Luke Stehr: Notable Jon Massimi: Hockey, it’s a Gretzky town there. Luke Stehr: Do you feel like being from the same town as Gretzky helped you with Fitch? Jon Massimi: Somewhat. Somewhat. I think navigating the hockey metaphors and Hauerwas was a skill. Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. Jon Massimi: So when did I start the program? I started in 2013 and then from there graduated 2017. Luke Stehr: That’s awesome. What made you want to go into a program focused on contextual theology? Jon Massimi: When it first started it was Missional Leadership and that was the buzz at the time. So we all started Missional Leadership, my denomination, so I’m an Anglican priest, like that idea of leadership and wanting people to take charge. And then midway through the program it changed to” contextual theology, which I think is actually a better term to use. So what drew me into the program, it was very much relationships. I saw Fitch at a couple of gatherings in and around town here, so London, Ontario. So that’s about two hours where I am, and just found that he had similar connections and we knew similar people and I was just sharing my desire to continue my education and he goes, “Hey, I’m starting this new program.” And he goes, “come check it out.” So I missed joining the first cohort. I was the second cohort of the program. So before putting an application, I took a drive to Lombard and met with Fitch, brought my family, went to the old seminary, I guess Fitch comes out of his office with t-shirt and jeans and hey, he’s like, dude hugs me. And I said, I drove from Kitchener. This is about eight hour drive. You have any free books for me? He goes, “Hey, I’m not Scot McKnight.” And then I already know the dynamic there, but I already had his books that he had. So anyway. Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. Gino Curcuruto: Jon, what do you spend your time doing these days? You said Anglican priest, but also I believe you’re a professor as well. Jon Massimi: Yes. So the trajectory I was doing church planting when I first started the program and like all good Anglican diocese, they’re really great at that. No, they’re not. You got things started and it’s like, oh, there’s some traction going on here. Let’s create a regional ministry. That didn’t really work out. And I transitioned to working with United Way in neighborhoods, and That shift occurred kind of I would say midway point of the program. So I had a particular topic in mind and it completely shifted because of that work with United Way I started off. It sounds a position that sounds a little bit more important than it was. It was at first a neighborhood development officer. There were no badges involved, so just there it was building relationships within the community. And then I moved to being a manager of community development and then from there started working with my municipality. So I became a supervisor of community centers. So I had five community centers and every community center had a church plant in it. Gino Curcuruto: Oh, wow. Jon Massimi: So I was meeting with more pastors than ever and I started just gathering at my house. I’m like, let’s talk about what’s happening in the neighborhood and maybe it’s put some theological framing around it. And one of the participants worked at Martin Luther University College, so that’s where I’m at as an adjunct and they needed someone to teach a course and she goes, “I know someone.” So that started the journey there. I think I’m up to eight courses. I don’t teach ‘em altogether. It’s like eight courses. Luke Stehr: That’d be a crazy load. Jon Massimi: Yeah, it would be most definitely. And then with that, I also do consultancy work, so I do work with neighbor associations, municipalities, I’ve worked with churches and from that I landed in, started a travel company too. I do educational travel and experiences. So there’s been situations where I’m working with a client and I’m like, that’s really a cool idea. Let me take you somewhere and that somewhere could be up the street, another city, or let’s go to another country and see what this is about. So that’s where I’m by myself and I’m currently in my home office with my kids barred in another room, so Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. I’m also curious about your experience in the program knowing that it was, you said the second cohort, so I’m sure some things have developed and maybe you’ve had a view of that on the way, but what were some of the seminars that were impactful for you? Jon Massimi: Well, I think right out of the gate, my first class with Fitch where we were talking about what are the essentials of the church. So framing that, and I think I came... so back up a bit. I’m not a cradle Anglican, so my family was Roman Catholic, grandpa became Pentecostal. So the emphasis growing up for me was Jesus in your heart, personal relationship. And I’m going to throw this out right now because Fitch is also known for his Hauerwas interpret or impressions. So I was at this Hauerwas event and someone asked, “Dr. Hauerwas, what’s your view on having a personal relationship with Jesus?” And I’m not going to do the impression. He’s like, “well, I don’t find having a personal relationship with Jesus that interesting.” And she, because Christianity is a mediated faith. So for me, that was one of the main learnings because I came in with this, yes, I was in the Anglican church, liturgical formation was big, but there was still this theological hangnail where it was, Hey, I need to have a personal relationship here. And in that it was this Christology that came first, but emphasizing, okay, ecclesiology first this appreciation of the church and that we have this mediated faith and we receive a story that we in turn pass on in our shape by. So that was one of the main learnings. Gino Curcuruto: That’s good. Jon Massimi: The second thing I appreciated was our after class hangouts with Fitch. So that’s where I found in the class we did listening and we had some discussions, but the heavy lifting I think happened around Fitch’s kitchen table or patio where we, and that would also be the opportunity. He would come out with his letter from Hauerwas show us that, and then later This was a later edition, the autograph picture by Wayne Greg from Wayne Gretzky. So that was my connection to Branford. We hooked up that deal for him, but it is that, and I truly appreciated how he made time for all of us, and I think that also helped us forge relationships with one another. So we weren’t just relying on him, we were also bouncing ideas off of one another. Gino Curcuruto: Wow, Jon, that’s so good. That’s come up with in other discussions we’ve had with people. I’m glad to hear it. It’s a good reminder because the program in a lot of ways is promoted, if I can say it that way, as look at these amazing professors that you get to learn from. And that’s true and that’s good. Luke Stehr: Yeah, they’re amazing. Gino Curcuruto: They are amazing and I hope that draws people in. But at the same time, it seems like the people who have gone through this program emphasize yes, the professors and maybe even more so how they cultivate these relationships in the cohort. Luke, I don’t know if some questions come to mind for you, but I could go down that Hauerwas rabbit trail with Jon no problem. And might do that. But I’m going to give you this. Luke Stehr: I think before we get there, I think this is helpful because I know there are probably some people who are listening who are deeply familiar with contextual theology and the majority probably are not familiar with contextual theology as a concept. So you talked about this transition of the program being a missional leadership program to a contextual theology program and why you think that’s ultimately a good thing. So can you explain why that’s a good thing, why that transition makes sense? Why we would want to think about missional leadership and contextual theology in different ways? Jon Massimi: I think when we emphasize leadership, there’s an assumption at play that we’re entering into spaces with answers and authority and particular power postures. So when I say I’m the leader, I’m at the front of the room and other people follow me. So when I talk about missional leadership, it was that we as leaders were the primary guides into the community And we set the terms of engagement and we were the paid professionals that others relied on. So the shift when we’re talking about contextual theology, so it’s that shift from being, having the answers to entering into spaces with questions. So when you’re a leader, I think there is the temptation to be helpful; when you’re entering in contextually it’s entering with as someone who’s curious, asking questions like, “what may God be up to here?” It’s also allows you or opens space for others to participate in it. So the other component I appreciate it is this wrestling with our context, the message that we received, and there’s also this idea of discernment of how does the message that we received apply to where we find ourselves and in turn, how is God speaking to us through our context? My thesis or dissertation topic was around asset-based community development. So that is a practice created by John McKnight, and in short, it’s entering into places and communities seeking abundance, not focusing on scarcity. So that transition or even the idea of leadership could lead you toward a model or an approach that seeks out needs and focuses on scarcity. When I find with the contextual is God’s already active, God’s doing things, God’s not absent and God gives us the gifts and the resources we need to engage with that context. Gino Curcuruto: So do you ask different questions? I guess you ask different questions right from the beginning then when you’re thinking contextually what are the assets here versus what are the needs? But also do you think about how the idea of the context is shaped by the cultures that are there. And so we also have to take into account the self that comes in as the help is also shaped by a context or how we even view the self as well. I don’t know, did you engage with that in your work there? Jon Massimi: Yeah, we enter with baggage. So ethnography is a big part of the program. So you have participant observers, you’re entering into spaces, you are observing the space, but as you were mentioning, your presence shapes the space as well, being attentive to that. And it is uncovering stories and seeing how the stories draw us into God’s story. That’s how I understood it. And when I am listening to stories, I found that there were two impulses happening. So the first was this nostalgic impulse where people would look back on how things were and would grieve that and said, “if only we could go back to the good old days,” whatever that was. The other impulse or perspective is this utopic. So it’s like looking to a state of perfection or so Thomas Moore, utopian means no place so we can never actually attain it, but saying if only we can get there. And what I’ve learned is those two impulses both start with if only we, and that “if only”t invades the present with scarcity, It’s saying that we don’t have what we need now. We had it then and it’s gone. That could be larger crowds, buses of kids coming to Sunday school, whatever. And we also look at the present and say, we don’t have enough to take us into the future. So I spent years as a youth pastor on 10 hour a week contracts because it was, we need young people in our church and we need someone who’s hip and young to get them in. So we’re going to hire you and we’re going to expect you to bring in young people. Mind you, the congregations that did hire me were predominantly seniors. So when I’m looking at this with the scarcity mindset, then bringing it into conversation, liturgically for me, the Eucharist is central. The Eucharist teaches us two different impulses. So how do we look to the past, not grieving it or with nostalgia, but with thanksgiving. And then again, the Eucharist is not just a remembering, it’s a, there’s some eschatology happening, it’s looking to the future. So it gives us and allows us to look to the future with hope. And it thoroughly grounds us in the present. And in the present. It teaches us that God gives us what we need in the bread and wine and that God is enough and that we are enough for the moment. So that’s the framing over the years that was going on in my head. So again, starting in, Hey, I’m a leader. Let me be helpful. Let me show you the way. And then people start telling me their stories. Oh, do you remember when, let’s recreate this. Do you remember when we used to sing Shine Jesus shine or shelter the Lord? And how many people raised their hands? Okay, let’s forget about that. Let’s look on that at thanksgiving. Thank you God for what you’ve done and what is God doing now? And when I would enter as a youth pastor in those contexts, I didn’t have that language even to make sense of it myself. And I found that this program gave me a language not only to help me understand what was happening, but also to share with others and frame the conversation in different ways. Gino Curcuruto: Jon, you just connected something for me that’s really feels very significant in your discussion of the Eucharist right there. And it’s the quote that you’ll know that because Fitch always says it as Hauerwas when someone says, where is this church that you are talking about? And Hauerwas will always say it’s right where you are. But I think you just gave some framing for that because this church exists where you actually are, not where you long to be in the past or hope to be in the future, but where you’re thankful for the past and the future is invading the present eschatologically in some way. Is that a connection that you’ve made to when you hear that quote or when you hear if it is poor impersonation of Jon Massimi: Yeah, I do. I do. Gino Curcuruto: That’s super helpful to me. Jon Massimi: Yeah. And again, it is that because if we start seeking, I know in Canada, especially for the mainline church, so I’m working with Lutherans and I’m working with Anglicans, and it is a difficult time because those that have come through seminary we’re told that if you give a bang up sermon, if you do an amazing children’s focus at the front of the church, if you have soup kitchens and maybe a contemporary band, a lot of people will come. And our context and the communities around us are changing. So the pocket in which I find myself in is there’s a new mosque that opened up the street. So what does that mean? What does that mean for Shrove or Fat Tuesday pancakes and sausage. Hey, you want to come and have some non-halal sausage and pancakes, or is there a way that we can reach out in different ways? So it’s also that idea, and I know this comes out in the course as well, this attractional model that we set up all these things and people come to us, but it’s actually us going out. And when I look at the Eucharist, one of the things pronounced at the Eucharist is taste and see that the Lord is good. And I think when we gather around the table, it trains our palates so that we’re able to taste God in the neighborhood. What does God taste like? Luke Stehr: What a way to say that. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, Luke Stehr: That’s beautiful. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, that’s really good Luke Stehr: I mean, so, as you think about where you are now because of this program, what does life look like for you as a contextual theologian on the ground day to day? Jon Massimi: Well, first, I no longer have dreams of being a mega church pastor, so a little Luke Stehr: This program will cure you of that. Jon Massimi: Yes. In my day to day, what I find is I seek ways or I would say I try to be more attentive to what’s happening around me and to what God may be doing. So when I’m interacting with my neighbors, when I’m out, and I even think using the practice of ethnography allowed me to take in everything. How is this space speaking to me, how people are interacting around me, what is that saying? And one of the practices that I also engage in because of ethnography is I’ll walk my neighborhood during garbage day because what people throw out say a lot about them. So if I’m seeing a house with a lot of toys on the lawn and loads of pizza boxes, I’m like, okay, and hockey net, oh, maybe this is a hockey family that they’re always on the go and pizza is their primary meal on the go, and they’re very networked if you want to say it. They’re doing a million different things. So that’s one thing. Or I dunno, maybe some people drive by or walk by my house and say, what’s with all the beer cans anyway? Sometimes they have parties in the back area. We have a fire pit, Like I said, I grew up Pentecostal, but Italian Pentecostal. So you’re allowed to drink wine but don’t dance. Fair Luke Stehr: Fair enough. So I want to draw on something really interesting that I think this program does and has done for you. And I think it’s a really good counterpoint to what we talked about earlier is I think in the process you’ve actually encountered what truly is a personal relationship with Jesus, which is this attentive life versus I think that kind of personal relationship we receive maybe out of the frameworks of evangelicalism where it’s really more of an intellectual like me and God are good kind of thing. Whereas you are now basically talking about this program has made you attentive to Christ’s presence everywhere you go, which is truly what a personal relationship with Jesus is. And I would just love it if you would elaborate on that. Jon Massimi: Well, I would say when you’re talking about the personal relationship, it’s the recognition that Jesus comes to us through others. So that’s that ecclesiology piece, but also Christ is coming to us through the stranger That we’re interacting with. So it is that openness, but it’s also the recognition that I enter into spaces as a stranger as well. And when we look at strangers, one of the things that we teach our kids is don’t speak to strangers and it’s a hidden curriculum. They’re saying fear the other because the other can do you harm. But with this program it’s saying, well, the stranger could potentially be God speaking to us, and then in turn we can be the revelation of Christ to others. Luke Stehr: That’s what I was getting at with the personal relationship. That’s not that interesting, but that’s that intellectual evangelical ascent model, not what you’re describing. Jon Massimi: Yeah. So year two of the program, I was doing the church plant thing and some people in the congregation were musicians. So, they were like, “Hey Jon wanted to come to one of our gigs?” Well, the gig was on a Saturday night and they were on at one in the morning being a good Anglican priest. My next service was at 8:00 AM morning prayer. So I went and I didn’t wear the collar, I didn’t want to be identified. And the bar was called Two Doors Down. I went in, ordered my drink and I was off in the corner. Then some other people walked in and they were recognized by others in the bar and they yell out, “Hey Michelle, what are you doing here?” And then she yells, “I’m here with my priest,” and she points at me in the corner. Well, what ended up happening, this little group starts gathering around me and people started asking me God questions. And I made the joke that God was two doors down and it was already at work, it was already preparing things there. I wanted to hide, but I was called out and people shared their horror, their horror stories of the church. And one person was like, “well, if I come, will you accept me? I would like my daughter to be baptized. Will you accept her?” So that conversation, so I think we got out of the bar at four in the morning and I just went right to the church and slept in the office. I went right to doing morning prayer, I don’t remember what I was speaking on. It was a little groggy, but just that, right. It was okay, this is happening to me. And I was learning not to push it. It was like, just listen. I didn’t need to be the Bible answer man, in that moment. Right. You share and it’s a yes. I hear you. Luke Stehr: Absolutely Jon Massimi: People. So the other thing that comes out of it is Fitch’s three circles. So that was the semicircle, right? Gino Curcuruto: Right. Jon Massimi: How are we received? How are we a guest? I said he needs to Luke Stehr: A bit of a pause because not everyone’s familiar with the three circles model. So one of you two, because you both have, Gino especially has really oriented his life around it. You can just brief explanation, Jon Massimi: Take it on. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Well, I would say that the way Fitch describes it, he has three circles. He says that the church exists not in just one space, time and place, but in all of life. So as you described, these three circles also have a shape that’s designed to be memorable. There’s a close circle, which is a full circle, close, not closed. And that would be where we would enter that space as the recipients of God’s presence. There’s a connecting circle is what we call it. I think he calls it the dotted circle. Luke Stehr: I think you’re right. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. So that would just be a circle, like a dotted circle if you can visualize that as you’re listening. And that is the place where we go as hosts of the presence of God in some way. So we might be welcoming people around a table in our house or somewhere else. And then there’s also the half circle, the semicircle, the open circle where we go as guests of God’s presence, seeking to find where God is present and at work, and then name that to others. So it could be two doors down literally or figuratively. Luke Stehr: People are laughing and having a party. So with that in mind, you found yourself in that semicircle that night. I totally interrupted you and derailed, but I wanted to make sure. Jon Massimi: Oh yeah, yeah. No, no, it’s fine. It’s fine. That’s good. Giving people context, right? Yeah, I found that helpful. And it’s also a tool to share with congregations. So the close circle is important. It’s where you learn how to be good hosts within the community and in turn be guests. Because in that process, it’s this reciprocal relationship where Christ is both host and guest in the lives of the believers. In the Eucharistic moment, I joke with Fitch, I’m like, you got to update those circles. You need one more. And I’m like, you need a Trinitarian circle. Start with that, how the life of Trinity extends into, and then let’s move forward. Gino Curcuruto: That’s really good. Luke Stehr: Let’s write that book. Jon Massimi: That’s an update. Yeah. The fourth circle. Gino Curcuruto: The fourth circle. I like what you said earlier, that close circle, if I’m using some of your language, Jon, is where we learn to develop the palette for moving into the other circles in a sense around tables and tasting and seeing and sharing that the Lord is good. Jon Massimi: And entering into the Anglican church and liturgy has been very important for me and it grounds me as well. And the thing is, when we’re looking at even the program I entered as an Anglican and those around me, so one of the benefits I had was hearing from different traditions as well. I think there was another Pentecost, I knew how to speak the Christianese enough to understand what he was saying, right, because I grew up. But what I loved about Fitch and his approach is he also valued tradition and liturgy and saying that those are important elements of our faith that help shape our postures in the world today. So wasn’t this abandonment of, let’s just go back to tax chapter two, right? No, there’s a church history, right? Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. You’ve heard him say this, but he said this multiple times in our first seminar. You don’t make this stuff up, you don’t make this stuff up, Luke Stehr: You don’t, Gino Curcuruto: And he’s right. Luke Stehr: Gino, one more question for Jon. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, Jon. And I think as we kind of come towards our time to close here, I was wondering, it sounds like you’ve mentioned this, but maybe is there one other takeaway from the program that you’d want to share with us? Jon Massimi: Well, I would say that the importance of building relationships with other pastors. So I found that many, again, I’ve worked with Baptist, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Anglicans, et cetera, and we tend to, especially if you’re in crisis mode, you want to be so insular and saying, okay, let me just focus on the growth in my church and my experience of connecting with others in the class and seeing others’ experiences positioned me to say, well, I can learn from other traditions as well. Let me build relationships and see what God is doing in and through other leaders and other congregations. So how can we encourage and work together? And I guess this is a good comedic thing, a callback. So going back when I was supervisor of community centers, seeing all those pastors together and saying, you need to come and talk and work with each other. Because it ended up, and it wasn’t happening as much, but it could have where it was like, let’s see who can set up their brand the best rather than how can we work together for God’s glory? Gino Curcuruto: That’s so good. That’s so good. Luke Stehr: Okay. Secret surprise question. What are you reading right now? Jon Massimi: Oh my goodness. I’m really getting into spirituality and AI. I’m reading around that. So there’s a book here, Understanding Religion and Artificial Intelligence: Meaning Making in the Digital Age Luke Stehr: Gino was on a Panel about AI, and he’s totally an expert. Gino Curcuruto: I could have used that book four days ago. I was on a panel. Yeah, no, that’s fascinating. Who’s the author on that? I’m sorry. I don’t mean to put you on the spot if you have it in front. Randy Reed. Luke Stehr: Randall Reed Jon Massimi: And Tracy Rohan. Gino Curcuruto: Excellent. Jon Massimi: I I’ll show it too. It’s right here. Gino Curcuruto: There it is. Wow. Beautiful. Jon Massimi: I did listen to what Fitch was saying, I guess the first episode and how some students are going on to do other things academically. So for me, I’m in the process. I’ve applied to a program in Europe and I’m looking to write about this. So going back to my Pentecostal roots saying, how does AI shape Pentecostal memory? So we are a people of memory, and my worry is when we’re working in communities, we are no longer are able to hold memory and we’ve lost our sense of artifacts, everything’s own, right? So how are we passing on the faith in ways that are faithful and how are we accurately, or how are we holding memory? And when we’re looking at Pentecostals, eschatology is huge and they seek to interpret currently events well, if those events are already being curated through algorithms, there’s another layer of discernment that needs to occur as well. Luke Stehr: Man, that’s going to be good. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Wow. Keep going. Sorry, I don’t want to interrupt you. I was just going to say, Luke, I think we’re so new into this podcast and we already have someone that’s going to need to come on again already to talk about that whole thing. Luke Stehr: Yeah, there will be a part two, Jon, so stay tuned. Jon Massimi: Yeah, I could just upload my consciousness. Luke Stehr: I watched the show Upload and I think that’s a bad idea, but Well, Jon Massimi: And it is something for you both or whoever’s listening, I did do a class on the meaning of life in ai. So the three, I use movies to set out a framework. So the first movie is Lars and the Real Girl, the second is Her, and then the third is Ex Machina. And I brought that into conversation with Wendell Berry and he has three concepts that work there because of the draft tours package and the tractor package. And I’ll leave it at there. That’s little breadcrumbs for the next episode, man. Luke Stehr: Jon, I say this with zero sarcasm. I bet you are a lot of fun at parties, Jon Massimi: Let’s say there’s some cigars present. I refer to him as burnt offerings to make them sound like get under the radar with some people. But yeah, that’s good. We have fun. That’s so good. And the invitation to you both Luke and Gino? I do have, so I have a basement apartment, so my son lives there now, but anytime you want to stop in. Gino Curcuruto: Oh man, Jon Massimi: I invited Fitch. He came a year ago and we had a bonfire invited pastors in the area and we hung out, and then we did a Saturday night with him, and then he spoke at a church. So Gino Curcuruto: Nice. Jon Massimi: It’s slowly being referred to as the philosopher’s basement, so different people are coming and Gino Curcuruto: I’m there. I’m coming. Yeah, Luke Stehr: I make get to Canada like twice a year, so this may happen. Jon Massimi: Yeah, you’re more than welcome. And it’s in the summer. It’s a bonfire winter. We’ll figure it out. Gino Curcuruto: Well, I return the offering, but no one wants to come to the US right now. And I totally understand. But if you ever do, we’ve got a spot for you as well. Oh man. Luke Stehr: Thank you. We’re good. Well, Jon, thank you. And to everyone out there, thank you so much for listening. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

12. 

    18 Mar 2026

    Episode 02 - Bernard Tam

    For Context: Bernard Tam Episode # 02 🎙️ Episode Overview In this episode of For Context, Bernard Tam joins Luke and Gino to discuss contextual theology. Bernard had just turned in the first draft of his dissertation for the Doctorate in Ministry in Contextual Theology program at Northern Seminary. On this episode, they discuss a bit of the program’s impact on Bernard, life and ministry in Toronto, and Bernard’s dissertation. Listen in! For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * Bernard Tam: The Living Room Church (https://www.thelivingroomchurch.ca/) * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) Episode Transcript Gino Curcuruto: I am Gino Curcuruto. Luke Stehr: I’m Luke Stehr. Gino Curcuruto: And you’re listening to For Context, Luke Stehr: A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology. Gino Curcuruto: Welcome back to For Context. This episode we have as our guest, Bernard Tam. He’s a pastor and he’s finishing up the Contextual Theology program at Northern. He just, I believe he’s submitted his, a draft of his thesis. So he’s going to be, he lives in Toronto. I’m probably saying that wrong. They probably say Toronto, Canada, Ontario, Canada. And he’s a dear friend of mine. I’m excited to have this conversation with him and Luke. So listen in. We are Fitch really critiqued how we don’t have a radio dynamic. So I thought just a flat line silent introduction would be a really cool way to start this episode. Now welcome back to For Context. I’m Gino with Luke and Luke Stehr: I’m here. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, good, good, good. Luke Stehr: Dave Fitch was right to critique our radio dynamic. Gino Curcuruto: He was, we’re more contextual theologians than performers. So that’s a little juke there. Got him, Luke Stehr: Got him. But today we’ve got Bernard Tam with us and I’m so glad Bernard could be here. Bernard, I think I’ve met you exactly once in real life. Bernard Tam: Yes. Luke Stehr: But it’s really great to be with you digitally again, so thanks for joining us. Bernard Tam: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m excited to just chat and hang out. Luke Stehr: Yeah, well if you can’t tell from the accent. Bernard, where are you from? Bernard Tam: I’m from Toronto, Canada. Luke Stehr: Not Toronto. Gino Curcuruto: It’s not Toronto. Bernard Tam: Some people can call it that, Luke Stehr: Who? Who may call it Toronto, Bernard Tam: The un-Torontonians. Gino Curcuruto: Ah us. Luke Stehr: It’s a Shibboleth, so Gino Curcuruto: That’s good. That’s good. Well, I want to tell you, I want to say before we jump into the questions, Bernard and I have become friends because of this program. In some ways we were introduced through Fitch for something else. We’re both part of the Christian and Missionary Alliance, but then through our overlap in seminars when I was in the master’s program, we’d hang out and got to spend some time with him and then we’ve become friends. So I’m excited to see you though. I do talk to you regularly. I’m excited to see you. I am also excited for you to share about your experience in the Contextual Theology program. I understand you have just submitted your final thesis. Bernard Tam: First draft. Yes Gino Curcuruto: First draft. Okay. Bernard Tam: Waiting for all the critiques and the red marks. Luke Stehr: Well maybe you can talk some of it out now and those critiques and red marks won’t feel so bad when they come. You’ll think, oh, I should have done that maybe. Bernard Tam: Yeah, we’ll see how it goes. Luke Stehr: But why don’t you tell us just about your ministry context and your church structure? Bernard Tam: Yeah, totally. I’m part of a church called the Living Room Church. It’s in what is known as Midtown Toronto. So just imagine the city of Toronto and then you draw a giant circle around kind of the core. We’re kind almost dead set in the middle, So we’re kind of straddling the urban center and what eventually becomes a suburbs. So we’re kind of like this unique space where interestingly in my research, it’s really hard for people to define. It’s almost like a little bit of a nebulous space that people are constantly trying to figure out the definition, but it’s just never a clear one, but in the midst of it. So I’ve been a part of this community for about 13 years and over the last 10 we’ve been kind of emerging into a network of house churches and part of which is just realizing where our points of connections with our neighborhood is that it’s actually not necessarily a Sunday service that people are looking for, but it’s the deep relationality in our living room that people have an openness and a willingness to kind of embrace and engage with one another. So we’ve been doing that for a little bit. We’re still learning. I feel like it’s never a simple, you don’t just do one thing and that’s it. There’s always learning, there’s always changes. So we are kind of coming at it with humility as much as we can. What’s kind of unique about our neighborhood is often it used to be known, so the main intersection of our neighborhoods called Yonge and Eglington, and it was once known as the young and the eligible because it was actually where it was a little bit more affordable. The young urban professionals are able to move in and they’re all singles and they’re all trying to figure out life in this big city. But now over the last couple of years, it’s really has changed. The neighborhood is very diversified. It’s not young and eligible anymore. When we first moved in, we were worried I had a 2-year-old. Then we’re like, oh, is he going to have any friends young and eligible? There’s gonna be no kids? And then all of a sudden an explosion happened and there’s so many kids in our neighborhood to the point where some of the new developments in our community have signs that says, even though you are going to be living beside a school, your kids will not guarantee a spot in the school. Wow. That’s kind of how crazy it gets, but it’s been beautiful to see kind of the intermingling, the mixture of culture in our neighborhood. When I go pick up my kids from school, English is not the common language for you to hear. There’s people from all over, from Europe, from Asia, from Latin America, and there’s this kind of become this eclectic mixture of culture in our community. And so it’s been a gift and a fascinating space to do ministry and learn. Luke Stehr: Yeah. What do you feel like as you’ve been in that neighborhood for quite some time now, what are some of the things that as you sit in that space that have emerged for you just as you’ve learned to listen to what’s happening there? Bernard Tam: I think one of the things that I’ve observed and learned, and maybe it’s been unearthed through many conversations, is the deep longing for relationships. Just the depth of loneliness living in the city is exposed through many conversations. So I remember when we first moved down into the neighborhood, I was really inspired by Caesar Kalinowski. There was a post that he put about how he was new to the city, I think it was New York, and he just threw himself a welcome to the Neighborhood party. He knows nobody. I’m like, that’s a brilliant idea, let me do that. And so we did. And with Fear and Trembling and my cute 2-year-old in my arm, I made up these little flyers and just passed around the neighborhood like, Hey, hosting this thing, I want to get to know the neighborhood and weren’t sure if anybody going to show up. I remember it’s like we were doing it at six o’clock and by 5:55 nobody was there and 6:10, nobody was there like, oh man, maybe this is just like Susan and I and my son and that’s it. And then all of a sudden neighbors kind of start coming out. I think at the end we had about 30 or 40 people that had come by the row. So I live in this townhouse complex and in the midst of some of those conversations, one really resonated with me. There was a lady who came up to me later and said, I lived here for seven years, but I have not met so many neighbors tonight. And more and more in these kind of conversations, there’s just this realization that I think everybody’s longing for relationship, but there’s no catalyst for that. There’s nobody to set the table for people to be together to curate the spaces for conversations, to even just be the one to draw people together in the common space. And so I think that was probably one of the biggest learning amongst the hidden socioeconomic realities in urban centers. So there’s just a lot of complexities I find once you’re actually living in the neighborhood. Gino Curcuruto: Speak more to that, Bernard. When you look at the changes in your neighborhood, and as you have just explored your context over the years, has that affected the way that you organize as a church or what you do as a church? Bernard Tam: Yeah, I think that’s a good question. I think in some ways it has kind of drawn us to think about where and who are the population that God might be opening spaces and doors for us as a church to connect and engage with. One of which I think it’s the doors that open for the marginalized seniors in our community. As I mentioned before, this neighborhood was known as the young ineligible urban professionals. They are lively now. We have a lot of young families. But at the same time, being in this community, we also gotten to know there are hidden communities within a community. So we have actually found out that there’s seven subsidized housing, city subsidized housing complexes. And actually of the seven, there’s actually a couple that are mainly for seniors. And so we’ve, through the years, started building relationship with some of these buildings and some of the seniors and through which I think we realized that, oh, God might be inviting us into these spaces to be ones who are bearing the good news to be Christ as we are entering these buildings. So that was actually quite a big shift at our church to see not just doing church with our kind of younger, we do have an intergenerational group, a group of 40 people, so it’s as intergenerational as you can get with 40 people. But the beauty is, I think when we have these relationships and then conversations begin and through one conversation, it kind of opens up like a door. And then the next thing you know, we are invited in to be a part of the Christmas celebration at the senior care homes, by the care groups itself, which is run by the government. Usually churches and religious organizations are kind of kept at a distance, but because of the relationship we’ve built and some of the seniors kind of becoming a part of our church community, there’s a trust and there’s an openness. And that’s kind of been what we’ve been learning to respond and to engage with. And I can tell another story about what we’ve been learning. As I mentioned earlier, there’s a lot of youth in a lot of kids in our community because the population here has changed so much to young families. The rapidity of growth is just incredible. I was looking at my oldest son, he was 12. He is part of a middle school. So here in the city of Toronto, there’s a primary school and it is a junior school. And then this high school, so junior school is kids from grade six to eight. So in our neighborhood currently there’s a one middle school or junior school, and their population is 600 kids. So imagine 600 grades, six to grade eights in one school. I can’t even imagine one which I have, but it’s just so many kids. And then also hearing that after the redevelopment of the school, the capacity of that school is going to be 900 kids. So I’m blown away. I would be petrified walking through those doors. Gino Curcuruto: Can I just tell you that I guess taught a class of 18, maybe 17 sixth graders for my daughter who’s an English teacher, I needed a sabbatical after one hour. Luke Stehr: Yeah, you’re still alive. You made it. Bernard Tam: It’s a gift, man. Teaching kids is such a gift. And I’m setting the context a little bit about the junior high kids because it was something that our church and a couple other churches begin to recognize. There’s so many kids in our neighborhood, but why isn’t there more spaces for youth to experience Christ, but also just a safe space for kids to be, we live in an urban center. There is not a ton of space, a common space and third space. And so out of that came a conversation with a friend of mine who is starting Young Life Toronto, which is a ministry with kids. And together, out of that conversation, we just started saying, what would it look like for us to just explore starting something? I remember him telling me, oh, we need about 20 families. Then I told him, well, I have one me. And then I was like, well, can we start with that? And out of that conversation began a dream of like, oh, let’s invite other churches. Let’s see what we can do with other people. And so we started reaching out churches from different theological backgrounds, traditions, and began a conversation of dreaming of what would it look like for us to collaborate. And so out of that, actually we launched our first youth group. I think it’s been over a year. And it’s just been a very humbling journey of learning and working with different partners and seeing how to work with different groups of kids from neighboring midtown communities. But the beauty of seeing what collaboration and partnership emerges out of a recognition of an opportunity in a dream that is so much bigger than one single local church. And recognizing that we are co-laborers and sojourners in the work of God here in our local contexts. And so that’s been a lot of fun and kind of crazy at the same time. Luke Stehr: So if I can ask, we’ve talked about some of the ways you’ve seen your church just move into the community. What does an average, because you’ve also talked about you’re not a Sunday centric model, and so for some people that’s a really new concept for the other two people I’m on this call with. It’s very familiar to them. But what is an average week in the life of Living Room Church look like? Bernard Tam: That’s such a hard question, man. I don’t know if there’s an average week. Luke Stehr: What did last week look like? Bernard Tam: I’ll explain a little bit. We kind of operate a little bit of an alternating week schedules. So on the first, third and fifth, we gather all the house churches together for a service that’s a little bit more traditional, this preaching, there’s prayers, worship, musical worship and communion together. And then on the second and fourth, we invite people to be a part of house communities where they’re now, so typically meeting on Sundays, but our encouragement is that you don’t have to meet on Sundays, find a day that works for everybody, be intentional in coming together and be around a table that you can share life and just the stories together. And then in between, we don’t really have a ton of stuff. We do have a bible study that a couple of people who are really keen on kind of theology. We have a lot of people who are inclined to theology. So we were kind of a weird church, people who actually read a heck of a lot. And so there are different groups that people kind of form and build throughout the week, but nothing really particular. I think we are still working that out, if I’m really honest. And Gino would probably have heard a lot of my sharing. It’s about we’ve been doing this for 10 years, but we’re still trying to figure it out. Luke Stehr: I think any institutional Sunday centric church would also say they’re still trying to figure it out. Gino Curcuruto: We’re all trying to figure it out. Bernard Tam: We’re all trying to figure it out. Luke Stehr: That’s so great. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, thinking about trying to figure it out. I mean, you’ve already touched on some of what I would say is some of your brilliance with contextual theology and practice and would love to dive more into that. But specifically in the program, the contextual Theology program, you probably learned some of this somewhere, maybe some of it’s intuitive for you, but in the course of your studies at Northern, was there a seminar that was more important to you? I mean, I’d hate to say favorite, how do you choose? But also, I don’t know if our listeners even know the structure of it. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that since you’re at the tail end of it. And we’re kind of in the beginning. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what the sequencing was like for you and why that might’ve been important, and was there a class that really stands out to you? Bernard Tam: It’s funny you talk about sequencing. So I have another friend who actually was the one who brought us into this program. By us, I mean, there’s three of us from Toronto that have been friends already. And then we were thinking about doing more studies, and as we were talking, we were like, oh, maybe we can check out Northern. And then eventually we became kind of the Canadian contingent of our cohort, which was kind of cool. We have five now. And my friend who introduced us kept talking about this dialogue box. He’s like, once you get the dialogue box, you understand what you’re doing. And we were like, what are you talking about? We’ve never heard of this dialogue box. Fitch has never told us about this until we did thesis design, which is the very last course Luke Stehr: You say, I haven’t heard of this. So we’re not there yet. Bernard Tam: And then we were learning about, oh, this is the space where culture and theology and all of that kind of collide, and you begin to learn how to dialogue between it. And then we’re like, oh, that totally makes sense. And so I think when we talk about sequence, although I understand why thesis design needs to be last, so many building blocks of learning about contextual theology, understanding incarnating, the gospel, the scriptural background, the physiological leadership, all of those are kind of building blocks towards the end. But I think even having a little bit more on the concept of how do you put all of this together is kind of that dialogue box. So I think for me, that was very helpful at the very end, but I had wished that it was also explained to us earlier so that we are already mapping out how these pieces come together. So I think that’s the only thing about sequence. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah. Yeah. I think we’re getting some of that. I think maybe we’re getting these little intros. This is probably really in the weeds now information, but we’re getting like, okay, this class fits into this part of your thesis design in seminar three, so maybe he’s listening, Luke Stehr: Which for these people who are not part of Northern’s program, I get asked all the time, oh, what’s your thesis about? I’m like, I’ve been told not to even think about that. You’re really discouraged from even beginning to approach thinking about what your thesis will be until the end of this program. Gino Curcuruto: Yes, Luke Stehr: I’ve learned, I have no idea what it’s about. Gino Curcuruto: I tell you that the one time when I got to have coffee with Stanley Howard was, and he asked me what my thesis was about, it was very embarrassing to say, I’ve been told not to think about that right now. And he’s like, “What’s Fitch doing?!” Luke Stehr: Straight from the lips of Stanley himself? Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bernard Tam: Should have recorded that. Gino Curcuruto: I wish I had. I wish I had. Well, was there one of the seminars that has been impactful maybe in some of the things that you’re doing right on the ground right away? Was there one more than others or how would you describe that? I mean, maybe that’s a better question. Bernard Tam: I think I’ll say it from this way first. I think more than the seminars, I think the gift of studying in cohorts has been an incredible gift to have the same people journeying together and keeping in touch with each other, even though we meet each other six months at a time every six months. But in between the still conversations and the week long seminars has been just very generative and been a part of the development and the formation journey. So I think I’m a big supporter of cohort learning because there is something about being through it together that is just very special. Luke Stehr: In terms of the question, well, maybe to riff on Gino’s question. Oh, sorry. Bernard Tam: Maybe Luke Stehr: To riff on Gino’s question, are there moments with your cohort that have stood out to you? Bernard Tam: I’ll say a fun one, and then I’ll say it kind of a real one. I think the cool thing about our cohort is that there’s foodie in our mist. And so people who are really into food and they’ll Google the best restaurants in our neighborhood or try things. I think one of the coolest experience we had was to go to a Chinese hot pot and where Jonathan Tran was also with us, and we were there as a whole cohort and people who’ve never had hot pot before, they’re like, what is this? Why are we boiling our meat? And then it’s like, what is this a baby octopus? We’re going to eat that. And it’s like, yeah, Chinese, we eat everything. And just the ability to share a meal and share live and share experiences together. I think that’s been such a great gift. But in terms of the seminars itself, I think as a cohort, I know a couple of the people have shared the same sentiment when we were with Al Roxburgh to not just focus on the lecture and his wisdom, what was most captivating for us, I think it’s the slowing down in the practice of dwelling in the word. Because every day we had the practice, I think you guys just finished taking the course. I don’t know if he did the same thing, but Gino Curcuruto: He did. Bernard Tam: He had us every morning start with dwelling the word, I think in the afternoon too. And at a doctoral level to experience something like that has been so disruptive in a healthy way because I think we often think we need to come in here, we need to take as much knowledge as possible, but then we are reminded the point of this is not just to incur knowledge or wisdom, but it’s to actually encounter and experience the disruption of Jesus, even in this week with your cohort together. And so I think that was in terms of very transformative and influential, I think that was one of them, one of the experiences that comes to mind immediately. Luke Stehr: Yeah. I know that was really profound for our cohort too. I think we’re still all processing all the things that Roxburgh did to us that week. Bernard Tam: I’m sure there’s a lot going on, Luke Stehr: But it was good. I want to hear you two talk about Bernard’s thesis. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, let’s talk about it. Why don’t you start, obviously Bernard, it’s your thesis. I’m curious if some of the learning from the young life and other networking with other churches was influential in your thesis design or what you did, but maybe you should describe what it is and then you can answer some of that. Bernard Tam: How technical do you want me to go? Luke Stehr: Let’s go super technical Gino Curcuruto: Do it. We’ve got two listeners. Luke Stehr: It’s for the nerds. Gino Curcuruto: Yes, do it. Bernard Tam: So I think genuine you’re saying that how does the young life and kind of a collaborative spirit and some of the stuff that we’ve been doing in the neighborhood kind of inspire the thesis? I think that is kind of the heartbeat of it. It was really funny, just kind of taking a step back. I was talking to my wife about preparation for thesis, and you guys have said, we’re not supposed to really know what we were writing on until till the very end. And so she always thought that I was going to write my thesis on house churches and that I would resolve all the unclarity of house churches through this thesis. And then I told her, no, I’m actually writing on how churches can collaborate. She’s like, what? I was waiting for you to solve all our issues. But I think I’ve always kind of wrestled with why is our witnesses as church so poor because we can’t collaborate and connect with one another? And that has always been kind of a driving question with me. I remember when I was a youth pastor, just this deep conviction from God to get to know our neighboring churches because I’m in our kind of one kilometer block this seven churches, and I’m like, why aren’t we even having some sort of a dialogue? It was kind of funny. I remember just cold calling everyone and just showing up at the door. And then usually the first question that they asked is, well, what are you selling? And then I’m like, I have nothing to sell. I just want to get to know you. I just want to have a relationship just down the road. And I think all of that transpired to this research on exploring, well, what does that look like? So my research question, which kind of changed a little bit at the very end, and I’ll explain a little bit more. So I began with this question of what does the mission imagination of five Midtown churches move them towards kingdom collaboration? So I do focus on mission because I still believe that that is a big part of the ecclesial identity of the church. But as we are thinking and wrestling with mission, what does that kingdom relationship look like? But through the process of the interviews, it kind of became clear that everyone kind of has a clear missional identity. But the problem with that missional identity is that it is hyper individualized. It’s kind of my preferred mission. It is compiled and define and discern just by us. There’s no an extended discernment together. And also there is this aspect of being in the urban center and what Hartmut Rosa would describe as social acceleration, the pace of our lives, the influence of technology we’re always chasing and trying to accomplish. And these become the factor of how we view our understanding of mission, our view on church, how we relate with other people, and even the purpose of seeing other local churches beside us. And so out of that, I kind of started to dig a little bit deeper into these secular theories and trying to unpack what are these cultural forces that are at work? And out of which I had kind of used two other theories to describe the kind of experiences in these cultural climates to which I had defined it as facelessness and this experience of this embodiment. And so in the thesis, I was trying to unpack a little bit more on how in our relationship with one another, the other actually becomes an idea. They’re distance. They do not have a face, they do not have a story. They’re just a concept. But our call as the church is not to conceptualize the other, but actually to incarnate and to enter with the other. So a lot of my kind of theological work was surrounded in Miroslav Volf’s work on Exclusion and Embrace and this kind of theology of embrace, which I really appreciate, even though it was a really hard read, and it took a long time to try to figure out how does this help unpack a little bit. But I’ll share a little bit about what I’ve also found in a theology. Gino Curcuruto: Can I jump in? Jump in right before you do that because No, that’s good. Because there’s so many questions that are in the background of this. You’ve mentioned even on this, in this time together about how do we even define Midtown Toronto? And I wonder mean we could talk about that, what your research found. That’s not the most compelling thing. The other thing is how do we relate to each other as churches theologically with our differences? And how does that contribute to othering or the facelessness? I think that you’re kind of getting to, If I’m tracking with this correctly, but I mean then all of that contributes to a social witness. It’s not a positive one so far. And so you’re going to talk about moving towards embrace of the other, I believe the faceless ones Or how do you, and so that’s not even the goal, though. The goal is not just simply to see the other, it’s actually a shared mission, if I remember your question. So yeah, with that little recap or my interjection to make sure I’m tracking, please continue. This is great. Bernard Tam: No, thanks Gino. Sometimes when I get rolling, I feel like, oh my gosh, there’s so much going on and how do I unpack it? How do I bring it all into a simpler understanding? But I think thanks for reminding about the social witness part, because part of my wrestling in this thesis is that churches in the community is not just defined by what we do, but is how and who we are doing it together. This social witness idea, it is I think, very significant in a time where antagonism and the kind of violence that we are experiencing with the other and where the church needs to be, then now a different space that operates in a way that reflects a form of humility, of love, of patience, of mutuality. Because if the church is not embodying that kind of love, the message of love is almost untenable. Right. Well, Luke Stehr: I love that, even in what you’ve just said, I think for anyone with a theological ear, but if you don’t, what you’ve done is you’ve already in what you’ve said, that’s you putting Hartmut Rosa and Miroslav Volf both into conversation, this technological acceleration, the facelessness really pairing that with the idea of exclusion, this the way we say no to the other, and moving that more towards a theology of Embrace. It’s really well done. I think, way of putting those two thinkers into conversation with one another towards a missional end, which is I just love it. Bernard Tam: Thanks. Luke Stehr: But keep going. Bernard Tam: I hope Fitch loves it too, because Luke Stehr: He has to grade you. Bernard Tam: Yeah, no, I think thanks for that. I think that’s encouraging. I’ll share this side note, since we’re talking about the program as a whole. I find at this very last leg of the program where I’m writing a thesis where our class is talking, we have a cohort chat, the feeling of imposter syndrome is so real. There’s always kind of this uncertainty of like, am I on the right track? Is this even meaningful? Is this even purposeful? But at the same time, recognizing that this is part of the humbling process, this is actually the way that I think we should all approach academia, is that it isn’t that we become experts, but we become more curious and we become more open to the way that we are approaching learning. And so that’s been kind of a helpful kind of wrestling with the approach of learning. So yeah, Gino Curcuruto: That’s really good. That’s really good. So you’ve done a lot of analysis. You’ve done some interviews, keep going, share. What are some of your findings along, or I don’t want to jump to the conclusions or your way forward where you always propose further research needs to be done or something like that. But I Luke Stehr: Think this is also a good aside for people who aren’t going through Northern’s program but are curious about it. This is, I’m guessing you’re getting to ethnographic research methods. So that’s part of the training we receive as students is in conducting ethnography. So field work, semi-structured interviews, the whole thing. So I’m curious to how you’re forming this bridge from your theological work and your theological analysis to what you’re actually discovering on the ground as you’re talking to people. And I think that’s where Gino’s going too, but for, again, the non northern crowd, we’re really trying to make this theological ethnographic bridge. I haven’t seen the dialogue box, so I guess that’s where we’re going. Bernard Tam: I think actually the, what’s interesting is we have an idea, we have a proposal. We have set up these concepts that we are going to try to explore and focus on. But I think the beauty of this practice is that a lot of these cultural engagement and theological reflection actually comes out of the ethnographic research. So doing the ethnographic research, doing the interviews, doing the observations, all of that becomes that which informs back or informs first into how you approach culturally, because I could have a certain idea of where I want to go, but if the research is actually not about that, then this doesn’t really make sense. And so there’s got to be this openness. And I believe that’s kind of part of the dialogue is that we begin somewhere, but in these different pieces that are coming at it, learning to listen and see kind of the threads and the connections that are beginning to form and then kind of leaning in into those pieces. The research is going to be wide. There’s going to be a lot, but there will be particular things that maybe the Holy Spirit will be revealing and prompting and emphasizing and showing that lean into this space. And so I think that’s what I had experienced. I think in this process, I actually started off focusing on two other social theorists like Levinas, Emmanuel Levinas, and in Maurice Merleau-Ponty, which I still used in the thesis, but I had to realize that this part needed a bigger and better framework because of the ethnographic research, because what I’ve seen, I’ve heard. And then they began to inform back into how do I approach it culturally? Well, these boundaries and these settings are needed in order for me to dive deeper into these people, which actually fits well in engaging with the dialogues. Gino Curcuruto: So you didn’t just come up with a, yeah, you up with a question imposed your theological imperatives on your context, and then write your paper to say what happened. I’m obviously joking, but I think you had a question. You did some ethnographic research. It maybe reframed your question, or at least some of the social theorists and theological questions that you’d have around that, which is kind of like a dialogue. Bernard Tam: Yeah, a hundred percent. And even my research question in the end, I had to share a little bit about how that’s kind of shifted, not shifted, but I think part of the finding is that maybe the question had, it’s not wrong, but it’s through the research, the reflection, the learning. It’s not actually the mission imagination of churches that leads to kingdom collaboration, but it’s an imagination of kingdom collaboration that is a missional imagination in our community community. So that’s been kind of interesting to approach. I remember talking to my supervisor, he’s like, did I do this wrong? That’s not my question. And then he’s like, no, no, this is good. This is meant for what it’s supposed to do. And I was like, oh, okay. Alright. Gino Curcuruto: And that’s the social witness that you’re talking about, correct. Yeah. Yeah. Bernard Tam: Correct. Gino Curcuruto: That’s Great. That’s great. Wow, Bernard, thank you for that. Luke Stehr: Oh, that’s going to be good. I’m excited. I hope I get to read it one day. I’m excited to see. Bernard Tam: Yeah, happy to share it. Yeah. Gino Curcuruto: Well, maybe I’m Luke Stehr: At the end. Gino Curcuruto: Go ahead. I’m sorry, Luke. I was just going to say that I think we have a little delay, but I was just going to say that that summary statement seems like a huge learning for us, but also maybe for you as well in the process of just what mission is or what that missional witness is. Are there any other things, maybe as my last question to you, any other things that stand out to you as learning that’s really significant in this whole process throughout this whole process of the cohort? Bernard Tam: Any other like? Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, in your thesis writing that you would say, yeah, I think this, it’s going to help me embody something different than I may have. When I started Bernard Tam: The thesis process or the thesis project, Gino Curcuruto: I’d say the project or the entire time in the program, Bernard Tam: I think the entire program definitely had pushed a, I would say us, because I believe our whole cohort experienced that a much deeper wrestling with culture, especially the underlying narratives that actually has informed our thinking and our practices. Flipping back to what you guys had asked me earlier, are there seminars that has really influenced and shaped us? The “Incarnating the Gospel” seminar with Jonathan Tran was very challenging, both because it’s in a context that I’ve never really studied a ton. It ended up focusing a lot on racial capitalism, which is I think his specialty that helped us begin to really unravel the cultural new that has informed this trajectory of where culture was moving towards. But we needed to break that back into that point. And so I think this whole process has been very helpful and challenging for us to not just see culture as it is, but even seeing what’s behind the culture, the formation of the culture that’s around us, but yet still having the hope and recognizing that God’s still at work and God’s still doing something new. And actually this one moment in that class with Jonathan Tran was so encouraging. I think he was probably one of the, okay, that might be too harsh, I would say. He is one of the professors that we have engaged with that has so much hope in the church. And he was unabashed to say that. And in one of the lectures he ended up, I think he just went on and just started preaching to us about the hope of the church and how we need to be a part of that. And I think that’s kind of the tension that was really healthy through the process. And that’s part of what we were learning because I think when we go back to our context, when we go back to our areas of ministries and the places that we are serving, we will struggle with the heaviness of the cultural brokenness that is around us, but also the hopefulness of how God is at work. And we kind of tend to that tension. And I think this program has been really helpful in walking through these tensions. Gino Curcuruto: That’s great. Luke Stehr: Well said. Here at the tail end of your time with Northern, what are some things you just want to celebrate about the doctorate of ministry in contextual theology? Bernard Tam: Oh, there’s a lot to celebrate. I think this has been, everyone that I’ve known has gone through the program has really been challenge and changed through it. I think the rigor of the readings, the reflections, the dialogues, really, it’s not just like you’re doing another degree, but the purpose behind it is to really take some of the learning and seeing how it actually directly intersect in the spaces of our ministry. I think that is actually what every seminary education is meant to do. But this one was, I think for many of us, it’s been a very sharpening space and a place that we are learning how to articulate some of the things that maybe we’ve been wrestling with too, because sometimes we have all these thoughts and ideas, but we don’t know how to frame it. We don’t know how to put it into a way that makes sense culturally, makes sense, theologically makes sense practically. And this last four years I think has been part of not putting the words, but giving an environment where these vocabularies are not just words, but they’re meaningful way of framing and shaping how culture meets church meets mission and God being at work in our neighborhoods. Gino Curcuruto: Wow. That’s so good. Bernard, thank you so much. It’s always good to talk to you. It’s always good to listen to you talk as well, and just appreciate your time. And Luke, I don’t know about you, but I’m pretty excited about what the next couple of years have for us. Luke Stehr: It’s going to be good. Bernard Tam: Yeah, you guys will have a blast, I’m sure. Thanks for having me. Luke Stehr: Well, thanks for being here. Good luck on getting feedback on here for draft. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

13. 

    4 Mar 2026

    Episode 01 - Dr. David Fitch

    For Context: Dr. David Fitch Episode # 01 🎙️ Episode Overview In this inaugural episode of For Context, Luke and Gino interview David Fitch. Fitch is the founder and director of the Doctorate in Ministry in Contextual Theology program at Northern Seminary. On this episode, they discuss a bit of the program’s origin story as well as why and how contextual theology works as a discipline. Give it a listen! For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary (http://www.seminary.edu). To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (https://www.seminary.edu/programs/doctor-of-ministry-in-contextual-theology/) (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu (http://seminary.edu). 📚 Resources * David Fitch: Fitch’s Provocations (https://davidfitch.substack.com/) * Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary (https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/) * Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ (https://faithinsitu.substack.com/) 🤝 Join the For Context Community If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news. * Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com/) Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/for-context/id1882393137) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3LYDQA3bxeMREKWdyTppyI?si=006f6c6ee7f444da) Episode Transcript Gino Curcuruto: I’m Gino Curcuruto Luke Stehr: And I’m Luke Stehr Gino Curcuruto: And you’re listening to For Context Luke Stehr: A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology. So today on For Context we have Dr. David Fitch, who heads up the Contextual Theology program at Northern. He’s a ton of fun, we hope you enjoy the episode. Gino, do you want to say anything more to introduce Fitch? Gino Curcuruto: Well I think it’s good we were able to start this podcast with an interview with Fitch, so he can kind of give us a history of the program, what the intent back in the day was, and where it’s heading in the future. Luke Stehr: So it’s a great episode, we had a ton of making it, and we hope you enjoy it, and it’s enough that you wanna stick around. It’s our first For Context ever, and we hope it is enough you wanna keep sticking around. If you’re on Substack, go ahead and hit that “Subscribe” button that way you can make sure you know when new episodes release. Gino Curcuruto: For our first episode of For Context, we are happy and pleased to have as our guest Dr. David Fitch. We are, both Luke and I are both as those who have listened to our intro, know that we’re students in the Contextual Theology D.Min. program at Northern Seminary, of which Fitch is the director, the founder, the chief instigator, and all of those other things that people will call him. So we wanted to get him on the podcast from the beginning and ask him a little bit about the history of this, where the idea for this program started. What was the inspiration, why the need you go ahead and riff on those ideas for us please. David Fitch: First of all, I’m honored to be on the first podcast of this podcast. Luke Stehr: It’s an honor. David Fitch: I’m feeling very, very honored. But you guys need to work on your radio vibe. We call it in the business, we call it the radio vibe. Gotta have a vibe. Luke Stehr: We did almost call this “Fitch’s Old Time Radio Show.” Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, we were thinking about that as the name, “The Old Time Fitch Radio Show.” David Fitch: Definitely by choice on name don’t go that direction. It’s going to, Luke Stehr: It would’ve been a tribute to someone we’ll keep nameless. David Fitch: You’re going to go from, we now have three listeners, all three of us being ourselves, and we’re going to go down to two if you do that. Luke Stehr: We are, David Fitch: We just, ladies and gentlemen, it’s just great to be on this podcast. What’s it called again, Luke? Luke Stehr: For Context. David Fitch: I dunno. Luke Stehr: He’s not sure about this. Gino Curcuruto: Wow. Wow. We didn’t know we were doing critique. We thought we just going to get a little bit of a, David Fitch: Can I just give you two words? Radio vibe. You got to have a radio. I know. It’s a podcast. Radio vibe. Alright, this is amazing ladies, gentlemen, great to be on For Context here, live in whatever studio this is. I have no idea where we are. And let’s get going with the show. Yeah, do Luke, let’s get going with the show. I know you have some questions. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, David Fitch: Tell us Luke, by the way, Luke actually sent me the questions. I did not have time to actually read the questions. Luke Stehr: You don’t need them. You don’t need them. We’re off the cuff. It’s even better. David Fitch: It’s even better. Luke Stehr: So live radio feeling that you just so desperately crave. David Fitch: Yes. Luke Stehr: So this program started several years ago. What was the inspiration for starting a contextual theology program? And maybe there are some people out there, like the many people I talk to week in and week out who go, what the heck is contextual theology? So what’s the inspiration for it? And maybe define some terms in there. David Fitch: There’s a little bit of history here. We started, started by calling it, I don’t know, D.Min. in missional theology or missional, I can’t remember. And then the name didn’t thoroughly capture what we were trying to do. We were trying to give pastors a theological frame to engage the cultures that they’re surrounded in for the gospel. And the missional thing kind of got lost in a bunch of the whole missional movement. This is like 20 years ago when I was Gino’s age 20 years ago actually. I would be possibly slightly younger than you. But anyways, all that to say, all that to say that, yeah, there are issues all around us in the culture that we operate. Pastors, churches, theologians operate out of a mindset of a Christendom, the mindset we’re in charge. We get to tell people where they’re wrong. We get to go out and give them the gospel on our terms. And all of this is no longer functioning well in the places it still functions in maybe Southern Baptist worlds and where Luke lives. But that was a beneath, that was a little surprising turn there. But doesn’t, Luke Stehr: Not a Southern Baptist, just for the record, David Fitch: but doesn’t work in places where Christendom and Christianity and the culture have split. And so we wanted to give people tools, understandings, ways of thinking, how to engage a local culture for the gospel. And there are issues out there. There’s racism, there’s sexuality, gender, there’s economics, there’s politics. It’s all become very divisive. How do we engage it for the gospel? We believe God’s at work in these spaces to bring not only healing transformation to these spaces, but bring people to himself in Jesus Christ as Lord. So that’s my opening salvo, the D.Min. in Contextual Theology. But for you two guys who are still in the middle of your program, what do you think, I mean, where is the touch point that is of importance for you in this program? Give me a touch point. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, well, you mentioned it there of what does it look like to take the gospel into the many cultures that we live around among. And oftentimes one of the things that attracted me to this program is oftentimes we give lip service to that and we try to contextualize the gospel without learning the context in which we live. So the heavy emphasis on knowing the cultures on learning and reading broadly and studying these concepts is really helpful. That I’m not just giving lip service to this idea, but actually engaging my neighbors and understanding things. Sometimes actually understanding why they live the way they do more clearly than they do. Luke Stehr: And I think for me, I had a pretty good robust foundation coming out of my master’s studying missiology, culture, all these things. And so I was already very used to thinking kind of along those terms, particularly from a more world Christianity perspective, but increasingly found myself in more secularized spaces and western contexts and wanted to go more specifically into the issues that present in those western contexts and environments, which Northern’s program is not exclusively talking about those things, but there’s a strong focus on the North American, European post-Christian context that I wanted to expand my knowledge and my ability to be a good practitioner in those spaces. David Fitch: Yeah, yeah, very helpful. The complexity here is often missed by the context that I’ve come out of, which is mainly white evangelicalism. Although I come out of a brand that is more like holiness Pentecostal. And that in and of itself is a different, it’s got a different theo-vibe than say most reformed theologies. But having all that, there’s still a problem here. I like to use the example of sexuality. I like to go right there to the most conflictual issue of our... Luke Stehr: Nice and easy. David Fitch: And I like to say, okay, we as a church like to make pronouncements. We affirm LGBTQIA+ used to be just LGBT or we do not affirm. And these are postures and policies which we think address the cultural issue of sexuality, but written into this approach is a posture of A.) power over, and B.), not listening to our surrounding cultures and even understanding what it might mean to say I’m gay. We assume because we are caught in these Christendom postures that we know what it means to say I’m gay. We do not. And this of course is now a most recent book that was published last year, the end of last year by Yarhouse and his co-author, who I can’t remember her name right now, I think it was 72 different sexual identities. If you think you know what your, the struggling students, let’s just say the 10 year olds, the 15 year olds they’re going through and you just assume, we do not affirm or affirm you’ve missed the whole engagement process. Likewise, if you just assume that the average person who’s going through these identity locations or struggles or whatever you want to call it, that you understand their histories and what brought them there and where the issue is, you will never connect. And all you will do is reinforce the existing ideological things that are going on in sexuality as well as the very ways culture is shaping sexual identity, much of which even Judith Butler would say is caught up in the sins of the world. I’m talking about misogyny, patriarchy, et cetera, et cetera, other objectification of bodies, commodification of attraction, all this stuff. Now you just see, we just riffed on that for like three, five minutes and there’s multiple layers. And so now can just, so the first thing maybe you want to learn if you’re going to be a contextual theologian is just stop yourself. Stop yourself and go listen to people and what’s going on so that the gospel can be proclaimed and people can be invited into this reconciliatory presence of Jesus Christ to save the world. Okay. That’s my little speech comments on that, Gino, or Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, I want to say something Luke, but you go ahead first, Luke Stehr: I think too, as I think about how do you explain this, we’re both serving in ministry, in churches. How do you explain this stuff? Someone in your church is like, what are you studying? What are you talking about? And so Gino and I are in the middle of our program, which we’ve talked about, and I think we both just finished a book by Bo Lim a Contextual Theological Interpretation. But basically the idea is how do you get from there to here? One of the difficulties of biblical studies as it’s been done is it keeps the text isolated in its historic context. And so how do we make this bridge between the text of scripture and the context of where we live today? And so contextual theology for me, if I was going to steal a line from Mark Glanville, it’s the through line of how you get from the text to the context. So learning to understand the current context and connect it back to that context. And that’s not always a one for one equal translation, which we talk about all the linguistics behind that, but it’s really how do you get from there to here and how do you help people here understand there? David Fitch: Yeah. And in a minute, I thought you were going to go this direction with your comment, Luke. I thought you were going to say something like how do we explain this to the people we’re ministering to? The first thing, I’ve been in many of these conversations about the sexuality discussion. By the way, it’s not just sexuality, it’s not just gender, it’s racism, it’s economics. It’s the way we think about our jobs. It’s the way we think about money. It’s the way we think about the poor. It’s the way we think about salvation. Everything. In order to enter the world and proclaim the gospel, you have to listen to what God’s saying, doing and discern what is of God and what is of savior, if I can put it, what is of the world, what is of destruction. And so I thought you were going to say, how do I explain this to our people? I can’t imagine trying to, one of our co-classmates, Greg Armstrong talked to me the other day and he said, I’m just blowing my leader’s mind with the stuff they have no idea. When I go, I go, what are you crazy? Are you trying to make them to contextual doctorates? This is not what your goal is to do with this program is turn all your leaders into doctorates in contextual theology. No, this gives you the tools to lead through and open conversations, deepen the conversations, and then illumine the Holy Spirit’s work so as to cooperate and proclaim the gospel. I thought you were going to go that direction, Luke. I’m very thankful. Surprised. I’m thankful you did not by the way. Gino Curcuruto: Well, I was thinking as you were using the example of sexuality that we get caught up often, and maybe I’m oversimplifying this, but we get caught up in binaries in just saying that there’s a binary, there’s a right and a wrong or there’s a this way or that way, whether it’s sexuality or it’s politics, anything we could talk about and say, we don’t even know what we’re saying, we just say it’s this or that. And then we argue from that perspective. And so one of the things that I do say to people in our congregation when they ask about this is that I’m learning to complexify things so that they meet what actually humans are like to actually get that there isn’t just one simple answer that we’re engaging. We need to understand people, we need to understand more of the complexity and not just get caught up in ideological arguments. David Fitch: That reminds me of something our pal Greg Boyd once said to me, we refuse at this church to make people into policy statements. Luke Stehr: Yes. David Fitch: Because really a lot’s going on. I don’t appreciate being made into a policy statement. It happens to me all the time. By the way, I need grace and mercy to give people grace and mercy when they make me into a policy statement. I’m going to go off on a rant here in a minute, but I am a white, an old white dude. People want to caricature me based on that, what do you call it? Category. And they have no clue as to my history, my life, what I’ve lived. I’ve lived through the suffering, the pain parts of my life. Anyways, so all this to just reiterate folks, can the church please stop itself and can it go be among and with people and listen, learn to ask good questions, and then out of that discern what God is doing. I think of the average gay or lesbian person. I know for a fact this might get me in trouble, but I know for a fact that a lot of what is going on in their interrelational connections is goodness. There is a lot of goodness there. And matter of fact, I would say that maybe the average, the several gay men I have met have better ways to make friendships with other men than what we call straight male, our pathetic ability to have good relationships with men or women for that matter. Do you think that that’s not where God’s working? And then do you think that that’s also not that the structures of sexuality and gender have been so screwed up in our culture that maybe some of what’s going on here in LGBTQIA is a response to the sinful, the corrupt things going on in culture with that? We often respond to sin by going deeper into sin, and we can’t just give everything a blanket right up, oh, it’s all good, it’s all of God. That’s another blanket overstatement, caricature policy statement, movement of power over. You are now exerting your power over. Can we please stop doing that? Did that that make sense? It does. Luke Stehr: It absolutely makes sense. Yeah. And so I think it’s a willingness to question and not take the base assumptions of culture, but it’s an interrogation or a curiosity and it’s a call to a curiosity of the local as opposed to trying to make universal proclamations that may not fit everywhere. And if you want to, I could go off on so many side tangents on that that I just don’t need to get into. But yeah, I think at its core that’s what this program, at least for me has been about. I haven’t finished. We’re going to interview some grads and see if I’m on the right track there, but yeah. Yeah. Gino Curcuruto: I’m wondering if you would share Fitch, some of the influences on you for seeing a need for a type of program like this. Where did that come from? Who have you learned from that influences this? David Fitch: Can you still hear me? I just got a notice. Okay. Before I do that, Gino, something is pressing in upon me by the Holy Spirit that I feel the need to talk about. Gino Curcuruto: Great. David Fitch: A lot of people, a lot of people hear me when I’m talking like this. Let’s just say about the hot topic of sexuality or racism or a lot of people hear me as somewhat of a relativist that I’m going to change the doctrines of scripture, history, tradition, Christianity, historic Christianity to fit in with a context because after all fits, you’re complexifying gay sexuality here and you’re making it fit into scripture. First of all, I just want to ask, how do you two answer that question and then I just want to blow that up because I refuse to be a relativist when it comes to contextual theology. How do you two? Gino Curcuruto: Well, when people ask me, isn’t Fitch just relativizing scripture? Because people ask me that, they don’t necessarily ask me the question directly as far as what was the way you said it, including gay sexuality into my theology. Was that or scriptural or scriptural understanding? I mean, I get called a lot of things and that would be one of them. I think that I’m asking them how they interpret what is in the scriptures directly to something that isn’t mentioned in the scriptures. David Fitch: Alright, well that was kind of boring, but anyways. Okay, just kidding. Luke, what would you do? Luke Stehr: I think I work in a Baptist setting, so it’s always good for me to kind of make these appeals to scripture as a good place to start. And I think most people are just unaware of just the complexity of scripture itself. You start peeling back the layers of the Bible and even just the translation of scripture into English or other languages. And it’s just so much more complicated than I think we can come away thinking when we just hold an English Bible in our hands going like, well, this is it. This is what I’ve got. And so one of the things that came to mind as we’re talking is we even forget just how complicated of a decision it is to contextualize the name of God into a local language. And so if you’ve only ever read the English Bible, then one of the things you don’t realize is one of the biggest debates in translation is how do you translate the name of God into Chinese? And you have different approaches advocated by different Bible societies, but they effectively make really strong theological statements just by how they name God in a local language. And so again, for me, contextual theology is about how do we get there to here. So when we think about scripture, when it talks about sexuality, well, A, we’ve got to be good contextual theologians of the past. I think that’s where we lean on good methodology of historical critical interpretation, which does a good job of analyzing the social, cultural, political, historical factors of the past, but then recognizing that it’s not a one for one to the present. And so specifically on issues of gender and sexuality. Well, Gino, you’ve said there’s no direct conversation about that from there to here Greco-Roman and Hebrew views of sexuality, in some ways they’re just so radically different than the way we think about sexuality here today, that we can’t make one for one, but we can try to do some good theology of how people relate to one another on the basis of gender, on the basis of sex. I’m still thinking we’re getting ready for our New Testament and context class this summer just finished reading Paul and Gender by Cynthia Westfall. Super excited to have her, but I once again come away realizing that Paul in writing about gender is just a brilliant human being who subverts the categories of his time Is effectively a contextual theologian of his own time, taking the categories of gender, of sexuality, of power, and really tweaking them, subverting them, reworking them towards the ends of the kingdom. And that’s what we have to do here today. So what are the categories? So to do that we actually have to have a conversation about what is happening in contemporary sexuality and gender studies. What is the cultural belief about gender and about sexuality? Because if Paul was going to use the metaphors and images of gender and sexuality in his time, well, we have to do that here too. We have to analyze what those categories mean in order to subvert them and put them under the lordship of Christ. David Fitch: Yeah. So I’ll take it one more step than the two or three steps you just talked about. And I’ll just say we don’t get to make things up. We didn’t just land out of the, I don’t know, off of the planet Saturn and became a Christian. There is a long history here, both in the west and the east. We are part of the west. We live where we live. And so there is some wisdom in there. There’s some wisdom in understanding what scriptures did. What Paul did was basically Jesus upended and overturned the patriarchies and the hierarchies within the sexual gender space, but he did so by entering into those household codes. So he went in and talked and said, but here’s how Jesus takes what is and transforms what is into something so much more, so much different. I want us to be able to do that with the current sexual paradigms we have, find ourselves in not just accommodate, endorse blanketly affirm, give our approval, which is a Christendom posture, not just say no to it all and give our disapproval, which is a Christendom posture, but enter in and how does Jesus and his transforming power overturn and reveal and heal the brokenness between genders. But we don’t give up that for centuries that we’ve understood marriage is now monogamy, not polygamy, not not polyamory, not no. For some reason, and lemme just be very specific for the way that Jesus comes to redeem and restore male and female and the two shall not be put asunder from which. So when Jesus said there is no more divorce, and the disciple said, I think it’s Matthew 18 somewhere, are you kidding me? Why anybody get married if there’s no more divorce? Okay, he’s overturning and transforming the ways that people think about being male and female to restore it to, and this is only possible in Jesus Christ. So anyways, all that to say, we don’t give any of that up. When we enter into what’s going on in the sexuality crisis or confusion or multiplicities and alternatives in our culture, we enter in and do discipleship. And I think that’s so important. So if anyone’s hearing me always a relativist far from it, I’m a contextualist. I know we’ve gone on too long on this. I found that post evangelicals often go into the text and say, well, they we’re not talking about the frame of homosexuality. We don’t call it gay or lesbian sexuality. That was not this. So they disarm the scripture and what it’s saying about past current day sodomy and so forth. But at the same point then they go, but we bless this because of certain principles like covenant monogamous principle. But all I’m trying to say is you can’t just leave the one behind and not extend into the present what Jesus has been doing and what he continues to do in terms of the healing and transformation of sexual identity, gender constructs the brokenness between genders, et cetera, et cetera. And that’s what, if we get anywhere in contextual theology, that’s what we need to understand. Those two dynamics. We go into the context, but we don’t just enter with nothing. We extend what God has done in Christ through the scripture, through the church, into these realities. Gino Curcuruto: Are there times and places where going into the context does change how we understand what we’re extending in there? David Fitch: Change. Change I don’t like. Gino Curcuruto: I’m intentionally vague David Fitch: Change. Gino Curcuruto: I’m Intentionally vague there. David Fitch: I get worried about the word change. We’re going to change the gospel. No, we’re not. We’re going to extend The gospel. So I’m currently trying to write a book. I’m not too far into it and the deadline is looming, but I’m writing the book about the many gospels and I talk about the various entry points to the gospels. And I got into an argument on Facebook recently about, Luke Stehr: it’s a great place for an argument. David Fitch: Reform theology and reform theology kind of lifted up the idea of substitutionary, view of the atonement and justification by faith alone. And what it did was it individualized salvation. And it also changed the terms from a Roman Catholic church that at that time was corrupt and you had to go through these processes and if you disobeyed this, you were going to hell, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So in that context, that understanding of salvation and atonement really, really changed Europe and really, really brought a lot of people into the fold of Jesus Christ in a way they hadn’t been before, But go across the ocean and go into the present time. Is that the view on salvation atonement, soteriology the way we need to understand what Christ is doing, or is there another part of the story that Christus Victor emphasizes his victory over the powers and the principalities? That to me is where I find most people struggling with the overwhelming powers and principalities of addiction or the powers and principalities of government and evil. And how do I live my life in victory over that Jesus has already accomplished a victory over that. Now let’s live into that and let him be Lord of our lives and bring Satan down. Okay. Anyways, all that to say, did I change the gospel? No, the gospel is this one long story. I just emphasized one part over another because of the contextual implications of our time that are no longer the same as 15th century Reformation Europe. Is there an amen in the congregation? Luke Stehr: Amen. Oh, there’s amen here. And I think that’s again, we’re going to borrow from Bo Lim, but just other people who talk about the translatability of the text, every time we translate the text of scripture into a new language, the theological vocabulary just expands. And it’s not that we’ve changed the text per se, but we’ve added just a new range of richness, a new depth to what we can actually talk about theologically because we learn as we translate and as we contextualize. But does it change the text? Gino Curcuruto: Well, I think that I’m asking the question from the perspective of the person saying that Fitch is a relativist and seeing, I wanted to hear a clear articulation of this isn’t a change, this is contextualization, this is a bringing forth of something into a new context, maybe in a way that hasn’t had to be described this way because this context is new and that’s helpful. People might see that simplistically as change and that’s not what it is. Luke Stehr: And I think for those people, I would just say go look at the history of translation. Go look at the history of the gospel spreading into new cultures around the world. Now how that’s happened over time and the concepts that get just used to explain what’s happening. David Fitch: Absolutely, absolutely. Now, there are some people that would disagree with what we’ve said in relation to the gospel Horton’s view of the gospel, this classic justification by faith and the ordo salute us, the order of salvation comes, then comes sanctification, comes glorification. Anyways, he claims in that book on the gospels four views of the gospels, he claims that that was always there. That’s always been the gospel from the first day on. It just got lost or it got somehow obscured and it was the Reformation. And Dr. Horton, if I’m misrepresenting you, I apologize, but I read that I think pretty carefully. And then I read another one of your books on justification. It appeared that you were doing the same thing. We have a minor, maybe it’s not minor disagreement. Okay. Because I think that the reformation found this like Luther was actually on the toilet when he was reading Romans. And he found justification by faith alone. And this made so much sense in the struggle that he was going through in his own life with the Roman Catholic Church. And it by the way, God used them to save hundreds of thousands, maybe millions who were wandering aimlessly discouraged by their future through what had become a corrupt Roman Catholicism. So all I’m saying is there are people that are disagree with us. Yes, let’s just talk amongst ourselves and see, I think we need to contextualize the gospel all the time, especially when now we’ve become a multi-ethnic multicultural world, multiple cultures. Let us not think, if you don’t believe in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement, you’re going to hell. That might not be the entry point. We need to reach people with the gospel. Maybe we’ll get there eventually. Maybe people will find the, I prefer the representational view, which kind of encapsulates that substitutionary view of Jesus. But we don’t need to start at the same place every single time. Gino Curcuruto: Wouldn’t you be more comfortable with calling Horton’s view? Maybe not his saying we lost it and now we found it again. But if this was just a view from the reformation that is a contextual theology, if he could see it as a contextual theology and say that is for a time and place helpful. I mean, I know that we have to talk about language and we have to talk about so many things to do that, but it seems like we kind of get stuck in and maybe ossify our theology in a context and then make it that for all time and argue against it. Luke Stehr: I think this is the challenge of contextual theology to systematic or historic approaches is that we recognize that every theology is a contextual theology and that’s actually advantageous. That’s by design. I think that’s how God has wired the Kingdom, the Church, scripture. It’s meant to be contextual. Things that come to mind as we make an argument if we have to make an argument for contextual theology. Lamin Sanneh talks about how in Africa when translating the Bible, again, translation is just such a good test case to prove the validity of contextual theology. So in African translations, when a foreign word was chosen for the name of God, those people who ended up converting to Christianity were actually significantly more likely to then convert to Islam because the imposition of a foreign notion of God felt un-African but Islam felt more African than the foreign Christianity which they had converted from their tribal religions. But when an indigenous word was chosen for God, like a local linguistic name for the high God was used in the translation for God’s name, those people were actually significantly more likely to stay Christian because it felt natural, contextualized to them. Contextual theology is necessary for us to effectively be God’s people in a place and at a time and to demonstrate and live out the good news where we are. That’s good. David Fitch: Yeah. That’s so huge. And there’s complexity there. So a lot of people are listening to this going, oh my goodness, this is relativism. They just changed the name of God. Now this foreign country that we’re bringing the gospel to now thinks of God in terms of their God. We’ve just done a shift there is Lamin Sanneh, I think he said Christianity is the most translated contextual faith in the world. A hundred thousand different tribes. Peoples have learned the gospel through their own languages, but it’s not a unilateral thing, which is what Lamin Sanneh is saying. I don’t translate my ideas into their language holding onto my ideas. I got to be in the language long enough to understand what’s going on to even have a cross. Oh, that’s what that means and makes sense in relation to who Jesus is. But we don’t give up Jesus and we don’t give up what God has done in Jesus and God is still God. But we need to find ways to communicate. And so often translation, this is what Willie Jennings does in that one chapter of that guy, I can’t remember now where he talks about how the guy landed in Peru and just basically translated Euro-Christianity into Peruvian terms, Thereby enforcing his worldview on them. And what ended up doing was creating a white Christianity among a non-white peoples. Luke Stehr: And that’s a huge risk. Missions history is full of those stories, David Fitch: Right? But also missions history is full of a lot of good stories too. But it is, I happen to be on a call, a theology circle, Jesus collective, and my African brother Edam goes, look, look, I know you white people want to insist you colonized us all here in Africa. We see on the call he’s speaking from Africa. But look, you did a lot of good things. Let me tell you three or four things that have changed my life because some person missionary from North America came here a hundred years ago and proclaimed Jesus. But at the same time, there’s a lot of bad things, cultural things. So I just want to say this is the navigation. It is that we’re all in and we’re in hit now here in North America. Can we be true to the call, the challenge to engage our new culturals, which are by and large post-Christian except for Southern Baptist, where Luke lives there to declining. Can’t we engage these populations for the gospel of Jesus Christ and see what God’s up to? Amen. I think we can engage the Southern Baptist for the gospel of Jesus Christ as well. Okay, I hope no one’s in trouble after this podcast. They’re going to come for me. Luke Stehr: So they’re not paying attention. But what’s different about this program as opposed to other programs? What’s unique about Northern’s Contextual Theology D.Min. that you can only really get here and by here, I mean there because I’m in Texas and you’re in Chicago. David Fitch: Well, let me try to be diplomatic for a change. I do believe that most doctorate of ministry programs have turned into some sort of pastoral self-help programs. Is that diplomatic? It’s diplomatic enough. There’s a lot of programs out there that, and rightfully so, pastors need spiritual formation and building up of their own formation in Christ and they’re out on an island somewhere and they’re getting slaughtered by the, I mean being pastors very, very difficult, especially in the environment that we’re in today. So I don’t want to take anything away from those programs, but this program’s, not that you get a lot of that here in our program, but we are really building a ability or a wherewithal to navigate the cultural challenges that we’re facing really for the first time. Last 25 years have just presented unbelievable new challenges to being a pastor. If you’re going to engage the culture for Christ and people are lost, I don’t mean lost going to hell lost. I mean pastors are just going swimming in this, what am I going to do? Responding to this conflict into my church over sexuality? How do I navigate racism in my context? It seems like we’re divided and fighting each other. How do we understand what’s going on ideologically? It’s everywhere. It’s taking over my church. And so this is going to give you a breath of theological understanding where you can take a deep breath, trust Lord, and navigate with good questions and leadership and probably help a whole lot of other pastors as well as well. I think a good half of the program graduates are teaching in either a seminary or in a denominational processes helping people understand these issues. We have people going to do their doctorate PhD from this program because it gives you such a good foundation. You can go to a Euro doctorate where you really don’t get the classwork foundation to go with a few, three or 4,000 euros. Not that that’s nothing. And develop yourself if you want to go that route. It’s a different kind of program and we’re very proud of it because we really have been, I don’t know of another program that quite does what we do and puts it all together in one place. We got some of the premier teachers in their fields teaching in all these various, we just talked about scriptural interpretation for context. We got Cindy Westfall coming. We talk about how to engage cultural issues like racism, economics. We’ve got Jonathan Tran, we’ve had Mark Mulder teach ethnography for the last 10, 15 years. He’s a sociologist from Calvin that just does a great job. Al Roxburgh has been a part of this program since its beginning. He’s kind of thinking about leadership and how do we lead churches into context and he’s dealing with all the frameworks. I don’t know anyone who else who does that. So we have just figures guiding and teaching in the program and I don’t know anybody else who quite puts it together like this. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, that’s really helpful. David Fitch: Course I’m bragging like crazy right now. Gino Curcuruto: Well, no, Luke Stehr: I think’s well deserved. Let another lips praise the David Fitch: I know Proverbs 27 Gino Curcuruto: I do think because of time we probably want to wrap this up. It’s been super helpful to hear from you on this Fitch. I mean, I think we probably do have a couple of listeners, maybe not tons of people, so don’t worry about boasting a little bit about the program. We’re asking you to do it Luke Stehr: It’s probably just people in our cohort at this point. Gino Curcuruto: So you’re good. Chances of Michael Horton listening to this podcast, absolutely zero. So if you do, David Fitch: Michael, I love you and we have a disagreement. Let’s do a podcast on this one. Let’s get Michael Horton on this podcast. That’s great context and soteriology. Gino Curcuruto: That sounds great. We’re going to do that. So we’re going to wrap up for now, but thank you for being with us Fitch. Luke, always good to talk to you. We’re not going to say over and out because that’s like a radio thing that some other guy does, but we’ll just say we’ll catch you next time. David Fitch: Love you guys! Luke Stehr: Thanks. Gino Curcuruto: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

14. 

    24 Feb 2026

    For Context

    We’re excited to announce For Context, a podcast coming soon that celebrates Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology. We’ll interview faculty, graduates, and current students from the Contextual Theology program at Northern. Northern Seminary’s Contextual Theology program has already been so helpful for us. And we thought it would be great to dive into all of the amazing things that Northern’s graduates and students learn as they become contextual theologians. Go ahead and subscribe to this page to stay up to date with new episodes as they release. Thanks for reading/listening! Subscribe for free to receive new posts This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit forcontextpod.substack.com (https://forcontextpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

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Apple Podcasts (US)

5.0 / 5

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Spotify

5.0 / 5

2 ratings

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