About From Two Sides to All Sides: Resilient Listening and Compassionate Conversations in the Midst of Conflict
An independent podcast with Rory Michelle Sullivan and Nashira Pearl
using the Mahloket Matters methodology from The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies
In this four episode podcast, Rory Michelle and Nashira - two committed, passionate American Jews who care deeply about Judaism and productive dialogue - share our learning and unlearning about the Israel-Palestine conflict from a place of humanizing everyone implicated. We explore the perspectives we’ve encountered through organized trips to the area, our own reading, and how that plus our own upbringing has influenced our understanding of the issues. Our goal is to share what we’ve learned, including how to have constructive, generative disagreement with others, using the Mahloket Matters methodology from The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies which combines Jewish wisdom and social psychology to generate discussion, critical thinking, personal growth, and the deepening of relationships. Listen if you’ve ever wondered: “How could they possibly think that?!”, sometimes feel that there is no hope for talking with people who think differently, or if you are afraid to talk or even ask about these issues and don’t know where to start. Our intention is to expand the conversation on the Israel-Palestine conflict from two sides to all sides while giving you hope and tools to talk about it productively in your own life.
Transcript of all episodes here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MUnyLP0JYBouUbdVPLo--3vSaJgf9dc_/view?usp=sharing).
Credits:
Thanks to:
The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies, Zvi Hirschfield & Monica Kleinman, and our Mahloket Matters Fellowship Winter 2024/5784 cohort
Chaim Landau and Sam Sussman for creating and running incredible programs to engage in deep conversation and resilient listening with those directly affected by the Israel-Palestine conflict
Nashira for being an incredible friend as well as partner in this podcast journey. This podcast is what it is because of your enthusiasm, thoughtfulness, courage, and insight.
Nashira’s husband and parents for ensuring a kid-free, quiet home for our recording marathon!
Podcast Editing: Alex Kontis at Sonics Podcasts https://www.sonics.io/ (https://www.sonics.io/)
Audio Engineering: Conor T. L. Sullivan https://conortlsullivan.com/ (https://conortlsullivan.com/)
Recorded using Riverside.fm (http://riverside.fm)
Equipment & Studio:
RM recorded at WXPN Podcast Studio at REC Philly on a Shure SM7B via a RØDECaster Pro mixer
Nashira recorded at home with a Blue Yeti with pop filter.
Rory Michelle offers Artist/Educator in Residences (including workshops using the Mahloket Matters Methodology from The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies) exploring "how to human" that help individuals and communities blossom and thrive. More here: rorymichelle.com (http://rorymichelle.com).
Thank you to these amazing Patrons for supporting what Rory Michelle creates!
Danielle Selber
Delen Heisman
Rick Kitei
Irene Tenenbaum and Daniel Verbit
Jerry Shinfeld
Alicia Jo Rabins
Michael Spanier
Julie Meyers
Heidi Tehilla Newman
LeeAnn Suen
Susan Schapiro
Jesse Bernstein
Jim & Sherry Leffert
Nashira Pearl
Join them here: https://www.patreon.com/rorymichellesullivan (https://www.patreon.com/rorymichellesullivan)
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy (https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.
Publisher
Rory Michelle Sullivan & Nashira Pearl
Category
education · religion & spirituality · society & culture
In this fourth and final episode, we share a few specific tools from Pardes's Makhloket Matters Fellowship, taught to us by Rachel Dingman, facilitator for Resetting the Table and Senior Director of Jewish Enrichment at BBYO. Using signposts and following meaning questions, we have a different conversation about where we disagree than we would have had without the Makhloket Matters methodology - and we hope that you can apply these tools and skills to have more resilient, compassionate conversations in the midst of conflict as well.
Content warning: Specific acts of violence are named between 35:30-35:52 and 37:06-37:30.
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Transcript here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/162S-QVtY1tYxtiR8ViAkJBQb99y3aRQO/view?usp=sharing).
Notes
The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies Mahloket Matters Methodology (https://www.pardes.org.il/mahloket-matters/)
Resetting the Table (https://www.resettingthetable.org/)
"Resilient listening" credited to Encounter (https://www.encounterprograms.org/)
Do We Need to Read the News? (https://www.theschooloflife.com/article/do-we-need-to-read-the-news/) | On Switching Off the News (https://www.theschooloflife.com/article/on-switching-off-the-news/)
The Noahide Laws (https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/)
The “pregnant pause” referenced at 43:38 was 26 seconds long before editing.
So You Want To Talk About Race - Ijeoma Oluo (https://www.amazon.com/You-Want-Talk-About-Race/dp/1541647432)
Peter Beinart suggests (https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine) that once people have freedoms, they will be happy to be free and go about their lives.
Other voices to listen to:
Shaul Magid: The Necessity of Exile (https://ayinpress.org/the-necessity-of-exile/)
Rashid Khalidi (https://history.columbia.edu/person/khalidi-rashid/)
Bassam Abun-Nadi: PreOccupation: A Not-So-Brief History of Palestine (https://open.spotify.com/show/1m3DU30YUEMY74t7BH3T18?si=b10403f4029a443f)
Amira Mohammed and Ibrahim Abu Ahmad: Unapologetic: The Third Narrative (https://open.spotify.com/show/5CT8QicPO31pe7AX0jA4Wp?si=1b3bc5e915d3465a)
Layla F. Saad: Me and White Supremacy (https://laylafsaad.com/meandwhitesupremacy)
“An Israeli and a Palestinian discuss 7 October, Gaza – and the future (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/13/israel-palestine-7-october-gaza-orna-guralnik)” - relevant example of a compassionate conversation
Conflict advice from a clown (https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAt1BXssSmZ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) - Rory Michelle is loving these great tips from a local Philly clown (@sterlingduns)
Get bonus content on Patreon (https://open.acast.com/public/patreon/fanSubscribe/198362)
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy (https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.
11 Oct 2024
3: A People for a Land or a Land for a People?
In this third episode, based on a learning session from Pardes' Makhloket Matters Fellowship, we focus in on two Jewish perspectives on our relationship to the land of Israel-Palestine. Is the land an essential part of who we are as Jews? Or is it simply functional, and we could be happy anywhere we're safe and can study Torah? Turns out (spoiler alert!), both of these perspectives are embodied in our textual tradition and lived experience - and have been for a long time.
_____
Transcript here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/17DM-umBSIjsj-6Op8wIL6qypbJ_1pk88/view?usp=sharing).
Notes
The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies Mahloket Matters Methodology (https://www.pardes.org.il/mahloket-matters/)
Shaye J. D. Cohen - From the Maccabees to the Mishnah (https://www.wjkbooks.com/Products/0664239048/from-the-maccabees-to-the-mishnah-third-edition.aspx)
The Sabbath - Abraham Joshua Heschel (https://yale.imodules.com/s/1667/images/gid6/editor_documents/life_worth_living/heschel.pdf?sessionid=5b241cb6-b2ab-4afa-9e24-c6c4386d9e01&cc=1)
History of Jews in Israel and North Africa (https://www.jimena.org/jimena-country-by-country/)
Extend Tours (https://www.extendprograms.org/) / Perspectives Israel (https://www.facebook.com/PerspectivesIsrael/) / "Resilient listening" credited to Encounter (https://www.encounterprograms.org/)
Native American Oral Traditions course, Lisa Brooks (https://www.amherst.edu/people/facstaff/lbrooks)
Wisdom Sits in Places - Keith Basso (https://www.unmpress.com/9780826317247/wisdom-sits-in-places/) (Note: American English speakers generally say ah-PATCH-ee (or plug this /əˈpɑːʃ/ into an ipa reader (http://ipa-reader.xyz/)). The Apache call themselves Indé, which means “the people.” Source here (https://blog.nativehope.org/history-of-the-apache-nation).)
The Art of Gathering - Priya Parker (https://www.amazon.com/Art-Gathering-How-Meet-Matters/dp/1594634939)
Sources quoted from the Pardes Mahloket Matters Fellowship source sheet:
Letter from a Cherokee named Aitooweyah to the Principal Chief of the Cherokees, John Ross
Paula Gunn Allen (1939 - 2008), a Native American poet of Laguna Pueblo and literacy critic, activist, professor, and novelist
Rav Abraham Isaac HaCohen Kook - The Lights of the Land of Israel, Chapter 1
Tosefta Avoda Zara, 4:3
Babylonian Talmud, Megillah 29a
Leo Pinsker - Excerpt from Auto-Emancipation, 1916
Other voices to listen to:
Rashid Khalidi (https://history.columbia.edu/person/khalidi-rashid/)
Bassam Abun-Nadi: PreOccupation: A Not-So-Brief History of Palestine (https://open.spotify.com/show/1m3DU30YUEMY74t7BH3T18?si=b10403f4029a443f)
Amira Mohammed, Ibrahim Abu Ahmad: Unapologetic: The Third Narrative (https://open.spotify.com/show/5CT8QicPO31pe7AX0jA4Wp?si=1b3bc5e915d3465a)
Get bonus content on Patreon (https://open.acast.com/public/patreon/fanSubscribe/198362)
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy (https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.
11 Oct 2024
2: Competing Commitments
In this second episode, we discuss a term we learned at summer camp that helps us understand what social and cultural psychologists Jonathan Haidt and Jesse Graham refer to as "Moral Foundations." In other words, what do we value, and how does the value someone is prioritizing impact their perspective? We focus especially on Israel's competing commitments between being a democracy and being a safe haven for the Jewish people.
_____
Transcript here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1072Ocplq3ZDI55MvzqOZKif59jmbg8MH/view?usp=sharing).
Notes
The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies Mahloket Matters Methodology (as well as Teen Curriculum and Adult Fellowship) (https://www.pardes.org.il/mahloket-matters/)
Peter Beinart (https://peterbeinart.net/), namely: "Yavne: A Jewish Case for Equality in Israel-Palestine (https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine)" and The Crisis of Zionism (https://peterbeinart.net/bookshelf/the-crisis-of-zionism/)
History of Jews in Israel and North Africa (https://www.jimena.org/jimena-country-by-country/), link shared by Mariana Pardes
How White Christian Influence is Reshaping Israel (https://emorinstitute.org/how-white-christian-influence-is-reshaping-israel/), link shared by Mariana Pardes
Moral Foundations Theory (https://moralfoundations.org/) by Jonathan Haidt & Jesse Graham
Elephant/Rider concept from Jonathan Haidt, author of The Righteous Mind (https://righteousmind.com)
Extend Tours (https://www.extendprograms.org/) - Rory Michelle highly recommends!
Perspectives Israel (https://www.facebook.com/PerspectivesIsrael/) - No longer running, but Facebook group provides insights
"Resilient listening" credited to Encounter (https://www.encounterprograms.org/)
Nashira notes that maps of Israel she saw growing up did not distinguish between Israel and Occupied Territories. Today, Peter Beinart speaks about “Democratic and Undemocratic Israel” - thanks to Andrew Davies for pointing out this phrasing.
Mikhael Manekin (https://www.academicstudiespress.com/9798887193243/)
Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib (https://x.com/afalkhatib)
Rabbi Megan GoldMarche shared this “competing commitment” of Universalism vs. Particularism with a group participating in Embark (https://www.embarktogether.org).
Other voices to listen to:
Rashid Khalidi (https://history.columbia.edu/person/khalidi-rashid/)
Bassam Abun-Nadi: PreOccupation: A Not-So-Brief History of Palestine (https://open.spotify.com/show/1m3DU30YUEMY74t7BH3T18?si=b10403f4029a443f)
Amira Mohammed and Ibrahim Abu Ahmad: Unapologetic: The Third Narrative (https://open.spotify.com/show/5CT8QicPO31pe7AX0jA4Wp?si=1b3bc5e915d3465a)
Get bonus content on Patreon (https://open.acast.com/public/patreon/fanSubscribe/198362)
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy (https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.
10 Oct 2024
1: From Two Sides to All Sides
In this first episode, we discuss the role of identity in one's perspective on a conflict. Rory Michelle shares some categorizations of different groups among the Israeli and Palestinian people that help expand the conflict from two sides to all sides.
_____
Transcript here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/17ICFeWtGwMlwtkb9r6P65LMRtU7D-weG/view?usp=sharing).
Notes
The Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies Mahloket Matters Methodology (as well as Teen Curriculum and Adult Fellowship) (https://www.pardes.org.il/mahloket-matters/)
Peter Beinart (https://peterbeinart.net/), namely: "Yavne: A Jewish Case for Equality in Israel-Palestine (https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine)" and The Crisis of Zionism (https://peterbeinart.net/bookshelf/the-crisis-of-zionism/)
The West Bank: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqK3_n6pdDY)
Never Split The Difference - Chris Voss (https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/1847941494): “tactical empathy” referenced in Chapter 5, pp.96-112
Extend Tours (https://www.extendprograms.org/) - Rory Michelle highly recommend these tours
Perspectives Israel (https://www.facebook.com/PerspectivesIsrael/) - This trip is no longer happening, but you can get a sense of it from its Facebook group.
The term “resilient listening” that we learned on the Perspectives Israel tour was credited to Encounter (https://www.encounterprograms.org/).
Unapologetic: The Third Narrative (https://linktr.ee/thirdnarrative)
Christian Evangelicals: How White Christian Influence is Reshaping Israel (https://emorinstitute.org/how-white-christian-influence-is-reshaping-israel/)
The history of the Jews in the Middle East/North Africa (https://www.jimena.org/jimena-country-by-country/) (thanks to Mariana Pardes for naming these last two aspects of what Peter Beinart's article doesn't cover)
Other voices to listen to:
Mikhael Manekin (https://www.academicstudiespress.com/9798887193243/)
Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib (https://www.facebook.com/afalkhatib)
Hannah Arendt
Shaul Magid, Distinguished Fellow in Jewish Studies at Dartmouth: The Necessity of Exile (https://ayinpress.org/the-necessity-of-exile/)
Rashid Khalidi (https://history.columbia.edu/person/khalidi-rashid/), Edward Said Professor Emeritus of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University
Mira Sucharov, Professor of Political Science at Carleton University
Joshua Shanes, Professor of Jewish Studies at the College of Charleston
Bassam Abun-Nadi: PreOccupation: A Not-So-Brief History of Palestine (https://open.spotify.com/show/1m3DU30YUEMY74t7BH3T18?si=b10403f4029a443f)
Get bonus content on Patreon (https://open.acast.com/public/patreon/fanSubscribe/198362)
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy (https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.
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