“In Depth: Psychoanalysis in the Academy” is a podcast of the Academics for the Advancement of Psychodynamic Psychology (A2P2). We are a group of scholars, clinicians, and educators working to promote psychodynamic research, training, and practice in the field of clinical psychology. This podcast features insightful interviews with psychoanalytic academics who are actively shaping the future of psychotherapy and psychology education.
If you’re drawn to depth-oriented thinking, critical scholarship, and the enduring relevance of the unconscious, welcome! You’re in the right place. Through these regular conversations, you’ll gain insight into how psychodynamic theory and practice intersect with contemporary academic life.
A2P2 is a community-driven organization working to shape the future of psychoanalytic education, from undergraduate study to postdoctoral training. Our projects focus on improving mentorship and educational resources, supporting psychoanalytic research, and expanding public discourse around psychodynamic training.
If this work resonates with you, visit a2p2group.org (http://a2p2group.org) or reach out to us at asquaredpsquared@gmail.com (mailto:asquaredpsquared@gmail.com) to get involved. We’re actively looking for volunteers and we especially encourage students to participate.
Follow us on Instagram and X (@asquaredpsquared) and LinkedIn (@a2p2) to keep up with our work.
Bridging the Gap: How Research and Practice Diverge in Psychology with Dr. Jonathan Shedler
This interview with Dr. Jonathan Shedler explores the systemic issues in psychology and psychotherapy, including the research-practice divide, the rise of CBT, and the challenges facing psychoanalysis. Gain insights into how these trends impact clinical practice, research validity, and public understanding.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Jonathan Shedler
01:12 The research-practice divide in psychology
02:26 Historical roots of clinical psychology post-WWII
09:18 Limitations of psychotherapy research methods
16:29 Influence of politics and ideology on psychology
26:43 Psychoanalysis' contribution to its own decline
30:04 The potential for psychoanalysis to meet public hunger
38:32 Personality and holistic approaches to treatment
40:28 The hierarchy of evidence and scientific methodology
50:37 Closing remarks and hope for the future
Resources
'The Efficacy of Psychodynamic Psychotherapy' (https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/amp-65-2-98.pdf)
Shedler-Westen Assessment Procedure (https://swapassessment.org/)
Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual (https://www.guilford.com/books/Psychodynamic-Diagnostic-Manual/Lingiardi-McWilliams/9781462558711?srsltid=AfmBOooRD37n9dVUSYvRTXgvvrY4ijDN5NrR7-jeLi08qVkzNDHk4Pj9)
Client-identified outcomes of individual psychotherapy: a qualitative meta-analysis (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(24)00356-0/abstract#:~:text=The%20meta%2Danalysis%20showed%20that,into%20understanding%20dimensions%20of%20change)
“That was then, this is now: Psychoanalytic psychotherapy for the rest of us” (https://jonathanshedler.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Shedler-That-was-then-this-is-now-R10.pdf)
Hans Reichenbach's philosophy of science (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/reichenbach/)
Experience and Prediction (https://philpapers.org/archive/RICEAP-4)
Context of Discovery and Context of Justification (http://www.zeww.uni-hannover.de/019_Hoyningen_ctxt_disc.pdf)
Schopenhauer's Porcupines (https://www.amazon.com/Schopenhauers-Porcupines-Intimacy-Dilemmas-Psychotherapy/dp/0465042872)
Guest Links
Professional Website (https://jonathanshedler.com/)
Publications (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=_qT8drIAAAAJ&hl=en)
LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-shedler-932b72140)
Substack (https://jonathanshedler.substack.com/)
Faculty Page (https://profiles.ucsf.edu/jonathan.shedler)
Credits:
Host & Executive Producer - Bevin Campbell, Psy.D.
Guest - Dr. Jonathan Shedler
Audio Editor & Co-Producer - Ellis Feldman
Composer, Writer, & Co-Producer - Brian Mageo-Sausser
1 Jul 2026
The Future of Psychoanalysis in Academia: Insights from Dr. Paul Wachtel
In this interview, Dr. Paul Wachtel discusses the evolution of psychoanalysis in academia, the importance of integration with other therapeutic approaches, and the future of psychotherapy research. He shares his personal journey, the challenges and opportunities in the field, and practical advice for aspiring psychoanalysts.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Psychoanalysis in Academia
02:35 Dr. Paul Wachtel's Academic Journey
04:29 The Evolution of Psychoanalysis in Academia
08:30 Integration of Psychoanalysis and Other Therapies
14:00 Current State of Psychoanalysis
16:03 Personal Reflections on Psychoanalysis' Journey
22:26 Research in Psychoanalysis
29:17 Students' Perspectives on Psychoanalysis
32:11 Advice for Aspiring Psychoanalysts
43:33 A Day in the Life of Dr. Wachtel
Resources
Psychoanalysis, Behavior Therapy, and the Relational World (Psychotherapy Integration) (https://www.amazon.com/Psychoanalysis-Behavior-Relational-Psychotherapy-Integration/dp/1557984093)
Race in the mind of America: Breaking the vicious circle between Blacks and Whites (https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1999-02194-000)
Relational Theory and the Practice of Psychotherapy (https://www.guilford.com/books/Relational-Theory-and-the-Practice-of-Psychotherapy/Paul-Wachtel/9781609180454?srsltid=AfmBOoo0MQuhTpbVRqi6IKFfKwmsjy1r8tegqwBwdOgXO75n28rijg5K)
Therapeutic communication: knowing what to say when (https://archive.org/details/therapeuticcommu0000wach_k3i4)
Inside the session: What really happens in psychotherapy (https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2010-19900-000)
The Poverty of Affluence (https://www.amazon.com/Poverty-Affluence-Psychological-Portrait-American/dp/1632460211)
Cyclical psychodynamics and the contextual self (https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2014-16201-000)
Making Room for the Disavowed: Reclaiming the Self in Psychotherapy (https://www.guilford.com/books/Making-Room-for-the-Disavowed/Paul-Wachtel/9781462553174?srsltid=AfmBOoqmx8Bb_IrGhkO6k7n6NpnyEfGbUWw_BSArI1sD-XwSvsFqFD3j)
Ackerman Institute for the Family (https://www.ackerman.org/)
Society for the Exploration of Psychotherapy Integration (https://www.sepiweb.org/)
Westen (1998) - The Scientific Legacy of Sigmund Freud: Toward a Psychodynamically Informed Psychological Science (https://hewittlab.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2020/04/Westen-1998.pdf)
Guest Links
Faculty Page (https://www.ccny.cuny.edu/profiles/paul-wachtel?srsltid=AfmBOooryKTyrLnBTEXNUTte1Y7W7GTB8-wA5hruKspVffvwtVv2Akxp)
Publications (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paul-Wachtel-2)
Credits:
Host & Executive Producer - Bevin Campbell, Psy.D.
Guest - Dr. Paul Wachtel
Audio Editor & Co-Producer - Ellis Feldman
Composer, Writer, & Co-Producer - Brian Mageo-Sausser
24 Jun 2026
Integrating Psychoanalysis and Quantitative Research in Psychology with Dr. Chris Hopwood
In this interview, Dr. Chris Hopwood shares his journey into academia, his integration of psychodynamic and interpersonal theories into quantitative research, and his perspectives on personality assessment, clinical orientation, and the role of psychology in addressing global issues like climate change and animal rights.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Chris Hopwood
01:55 The Journey into Academia
04:08 Discovering Psychoanalytic Theory
06:30 Interpersonal Theory and Its Impact
08:49 Debates in Personality Assessment
10:40 The Evolution of Personality Disorders
12:54 Understanding Personality Functioning
15:14 The Intersection of Personality and Clinical Psychology
16:40 The Importance of Theoretical Orientation
18:58 The Role of Scientific Method in Psychoanalysis
20:38 The Future of Psychological Theory
22:33 Experiences in Zurich and European Perspectives
25:19 The State of Psychoanalysis in Academia
27:38 The Relevance of Theoretical Orientation
29:41 Human-Animal Relations and Moral Crisis
31:53 Addressing Climate Change in Clinical Practice
33:12 Confronting Eco-Anxiety and Human Cruelty
36:50 Navigating Academic Paths and Choices
41:52 Balancing Academia and Personal Life
44:38 The Role of Psychoanalysis in Modern Psychology
51:26 Exploring Human-Animal Relations
55:08 Addressing Climate Anxiety in Therapy
Resources
Psychology of Human-Animal Intergroup Relations (https://phair.psychopen.eu/index.php/phair)
Major Theories of Personality Disorder (https://www.guilford.com/books/Major-Theories-of-Personality-Disorder/Lenzenweger-Clarkin/9781593851088?srsltid=AfmBOopLdgrlplw47dmqlz1tkn_F30_rXMWDj79rtGUUFfSEYXbMjg1H)
Society for Interpersonal Theory and Research (https://sitarsociety.org/)
Harvard Medical School Psychiatry Department (https://medschool.harvard.edu/)
Robert Karen’s work (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert-Karen)
Les Morey’s work (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ef7-oHkAAAAJ&hl=en)
“Interpersonal theory of personality” by Aaron Pincus (https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2003-04682-009)
“A Contemporary Interpersonal Model of Personality Pathology and Personality Disorder” by Pincus and Hopwood (https://personality.faculty.ucdavis.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/467/2017/08/Pincus-Hopwood-2012-interpersonal-Oxford.Widiger.pdf)
Guest links
Faculty page (https://www.psychology.uzh.ch/en/areas/sob/perspsy/team/hopwood.html)
Publications (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=10KBQ-IAAAAJ&hl=en)
Credits:
Host & Executive Producer - Bevin Campbell, Psy.D.
Guest - Dr. Chris Hopwood
Audio Editor & Co-Producer - Ellis Feldman
Composer, Writer, & Co-Producer - Brian Mageo-Sausser
17 Jun 2026
From Psychoanalysis to Policy: A Journey of Systemic Change with Dr. Kimberlyn Leary
This interview explores the diverse career of Dr. Kimberlyn Leary, a psychoanalyst turned policy expert, highlighting insights on leadership, negotiation, and the intersection of clinical practice with public policy. Discover how her background informs her approach to systemic change and equity initiatives.
Chapters
00:00 Career Trajectory and Early Influences
03:00 Expanding Focus: From Clinical Work to Policy
06:13 Experiences in the White House
08:58 The Through Line of Diverse Interests
12:05 Negotiation and Conflict Resolution
15:09 The Role of Psychoanalysis in Policy Work
18:03 Negotiation as Collaborative Problem Solving
20:57 Teaching and Classroom Dynamics
23:50 Leadership and Adaptive Challenges
27:00 Advice for Aspiring Academics in Policy
29:58 Reflections on Early Scholarship
32:46 Balancing Multiple Roles in Academia
Resources
Advancing Equity for Women and Girls of Color (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/documents/ADVANCING_EQUITY_FOR_WOMEN_AND_GIRLS_OF_COLOR_REPORT.pdf)
Getting to Yes (https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-Without/dp/0143118757)
The Boston Psychoanalytic Institute (https://bpsi.org/)
Austin Riggs Center (https://austinriggs.org/)
University of Michigan Psychology Department (https://lsa.umich.edu/psych)
Race as an adaptive challenge: Working with diversity in the clinical consulting room (2012) (https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-10030-001)
Guest Links
LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlynleary)
Faculty Page (https://www.hks.harvard.edu/faculty/kimberlyn-leary)
New America (https://www.newamerica.org/people/kimberlyn-leary/)
Publications (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=MoqfvQUAAAAJ&hl=en)
Credits:
Host & Executive Producer - Bevin Campbell, Psy.D.
Guest - Dr. Kimberlyn Leary
Audio Editor & Co-Producer - Ellis Feldman
Composer, Writer, & Co-Producer - Brian Mageo-Sausser
10 Jun 2026
Bridging Traditions: The Power of Pluralism in Psychotherapy with Dr. Chris Muran
This interview with Dr. Chris Muran explores the evolution of psychotherapy, the importance of process research, and the value of pluralism in training future therapists. Discover insights on rupture repair, training methods, and integrating diverse therapeutic traditions.
Chapters
00:00 Journey into Academia: Foundations and Influences
02:56 The Evolution of Therapeutic Approaches
05:58 Research in Psychotherapy: Process vs. Outcome
08:52 Bridging Psychoanalysis and Empirical Research
12:03 Pluralism in Psychotherapy: A Modern Perspective
29:50 The Importance of Dialogue in Therapy
38:25 Training Future Psychotherapists
46:30 Experiential Learning in Psychoanalytic Training
52:43 A Day in the Life of an Academic
Resources
Society for Psychotherapy Research (https://www.psychotherapyresearch.org/)
Work on Rupture and Repair (https://www.apa.org/pubs/books/rupture-repair-psychotherapy)
Guest links
Faculty Page (https://www.adelphi.edu/faculty/profiles/profile.php?PID=0502)
Publications (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=9LHd_UwAAAAJ&hl=en)
Center for Alliance-Focused Training (https://www.therapeutic-alliance.org/about-us.html)
Credits:
Host & Executive Producer - Bevin Campbell, Psy.D.
Guest - Dr. Christopher Muran
Audio Editor & Co-Producer - Ellis Feldman
Composer, Writer, & Co-Producer - Brian Mageo-Sausser
3 Jun 2026
Decolonizing Psychoanalysis: Social Justice and Therapy with Dr. Daniel José Gaztambide
In this conversation, Dr. Daniel Gaztambide explores the intersection of psychoanalysis, social justice, and decolonial theory. He shares his personal journey, challenges in academia, and innovative approaches to expanding psychoanalytic thought beyond traditional dyadic models.
Chapters
00:00 Mapping Identity and Interpersonal Dynamics
03:02 Journey into Psychoanalysis and Academia
12:28 Navigating Challenges in Psychoanalytic Research
17:09 Resilience Amidst Academic Barriers
22:46 Serendipity and Finding a Place in Academia
29:37 The Existential Fear of Psychoanalysts in Academia
31:06 Navigating Academic Challenges in Qualitative Research
34:34 The Intersection of Psychoanalysis and Social Justice
40:57 Balancing Empathy and Accountability in Therapy
43:37 Religion's Role in Psychoanalysis and Social Justice
48:54 Decolonizing Psychoanalytic Techniques and Theories
Resources
Frantz Fanon Lab for Decolonial Psychology (https://www.thefrantzfanonlab.com/)
A Caballo Regalao no se le Mira el Colmillo: Colonial Mentality and Puerto Rican Depression (https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/cou-cou0000347.pdf)
Frantz Fanon, “Black Skin, White Masks” (https://monoskop.org/images/a/a5/Fanon_Frantz_Black_Skin_White_Masks_1986.pdf)
Jessica Benjamin's “Beyond Doer and Done to” (https://www.routledge.com/Beyond-Doer-and-Done-to-Recognition-Theory-Intersubjectivity-and-the-Third/Benjamin/p/book/9781138218420)
Elizabeth Danto's Freud's Free Clinic (https://psptraining.com/wp-content/uploads/Danto-E.A-2005a-Freuds-free-clinics_reduced.pdf)
Jessica Benjamin's work on intersubjectivity (https://www.n-c-p.org/_Library/Misc_documents/Benjamin_Jessica_Like_Subjects_Love_Objects_PP_27-48.pdf)
Rutgers University Department of Religion (https://religion.rutgers.edu/)
Freud’s “Civilization and its Discontents” (https://www.stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FreudS-CIVILIZATION-AND-ITS-DISCONTENTS-text-final.pdf)
Peter Fonagy’s work on attachment (https://otherpress.com/product/attachment-theory-and-psychoanalysis-9781892746702/)
Guest links
Professional Website (https://drgpsychotherapy.com/)
Faculty Page (https://www.qc.cuny.edu/academics/psychology/d_gaztambide/)
The Action Lab (https://www.actionlabny.org/team-members/daniel-jose-gaztambide)
Publications (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=daniel+gaztambide&oq=daniel+Gaztam)
X (https://x.com/DGaztambide)
Credits:
Host & Executive Producer - Bevin Campbell, Psy.D.
Guest - Dr. Daniel José Gaztambide
Audio Editor & Co-Producer - Ellis Feldman
Composer, Writer, & Co-Producer - Brian Mageo-Sausser
24 May 2026
Revitalizing Psychodynamic Thinking in Academia: Insights from Nancy McWilliams and Leora Trub
This episode explores the shifting landscape of psychodynamic training and the future of psychoanalytic thought in universities. With perspectives from Dr. Nancy McWilliams, a seasoned clinician and educator, and Dr. Leora Trub, founder of A2P2, we examine the profound changes in psychotherapy education, the importance of diverse voices, and the hope for restoring depth-oriented approaches amidst a landscape increasingly dominated by protocol-driven treatments.
Chapters
01:04 - The purpose of A2P2 and the future of psychoanalytic psychology in academia
05:40 - Clinical and ethical implications of narrowly focusing on DSM categories
09:16 - Data on the shrinking presence of psychoanalytic faculty in universities
15:10 - Leora Trub’s journey from clinical training to academia and founding of A2P2
22:42 - The future outlook: more hope than pessimism for psychoanalysis in the academy
23:47 - The role of teaching, publishing, and mentoring in fostering depth-oriented thinking
30:39 - Expanding psychoanalytic thinking to include diversity, cultural humility, and anti-racism
39:38 - Reinventing tenure and academic recognition to value different kinds of contributions
45:15 - Psychoanalysis’ role in cultivating diversity, equity, and inclusion in mental health
53:19 - Practical insights on balancing clinical work, writing, teaching, and family life
56:26 - The importance of visibility, mentorship, and modeling a balanced professional life
57:20 - Advice for students aspiring to combine psychoanalysis with academic careers
Resources & Links:
A2P2 Website (https://ambitious-asquaredpsquared.wordpress.com/)
Saving Talk Therapy by Enrico Gnaulati (https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Talk-Therapy-Insurers-Slanted/dp/0807093408)
Psychoanalytic Research Studies (Peter Lilliengren (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter-Lilliengren/publication/317335876_Comprehensive_compilation_of_randomized_controlled_trials_RCTs_involving_psychodynamic_treatments_and_interventions/links/65798a1ecbd2c535ea20f3cd/Comprehensive-compilation-of-randomized-controlled-trials-RCTs-involving-psychodynamic-treatments-and-interventions.pdf))
Guest Links:
Nancy McWilliams
Website (https://nancymcwilliams.com/)
Publications (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nancy-Mcwilliams-2)
Leora Trub
Faculty Page (https://www.pace.edu/profile/leora-trub)
Publications (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=s_8Ck5cAAAAJ&hl=en)
Credits:
Host & Executive Producer - Bevin Campbell, Psy.D.
Guests - Nancy McWiliiams, Leora Trub
Audio Editor & Co-Producer - Ellis Feldman
Composer, Writer, & Co-Producer - Brian Mageo-Sausser
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