Centering actors and behavior in systems change efforts
What does it take to map a system in a way that will actually lead to change? Traditional models can make change look like a straight line from input to impact, but real systems rarely work that way. In this episode, Jeff Mohr talks with Mark Oldenbeuving, co-creator of the Actor-Based Change framework and founder of Ripple CoLab, about why he moved away from linear theories of change and toward mapping people, behaviors, and relationships instead. They explore: Why traditional th...
8 Dec 2025
Reimagining the future through systems change | Episode 16
What happens after the systems map is complete? An increasing number of organizations understand the value of engaging with complexity, but the challenge comes when, after doing systems analysis, people fall back into the usual plan-control-implement-measure approach. Treating complexity as if it were just... "complicated". In this episode, Jeff Mohr speaks with Viliana Dzhartova, co-founder of ReImagined Futures, about what it truly takes to move from systems analysis to systems change. Th...
23 Jul 2025
The systems behind the symptoms | Episode 15
What if the real problem isn’t what we think it is? When simple solutions don’t actually move the needle, it’s often a sign we’re treating symptoms, not systems. In this episode, Jeff Mohr talks with Matt Healey, founder of First Person Consulting, about how systems thinking and evaluation can help us move beyond surface-level problems. They explore: The difference between program evaluation and systems evaluationMoving from problems to possibilitiesMonitoring system health and finding levera...
7 May 2025
Creating new patterns for learning and leading | Episode 14
What patterns are shaping how we learn, lead, and live, and how might we begin to shift them? In this week’s episode, we’re joined by Jessica Kiessel from (Re)Patterning Lab. Jessica stewards spaces and builds infrastructure to support the learning, creativity, and shapeshifting needed to live into the patterns we hope to see in the world, both for individuals as well as inside organizations. Tune in to explore more around: Seeing and making patternsBuilding containers for learningPoking at o...
23 Jan 2025
The way of the forest: Supporting ecosystems with a nature-inspired lens | Episode 13
In this episode we’re joined by Santiago Bunce, founder of Via Bosque, a company that helps clients achieve transformative change by integrating leadership tools with nature-inspired principles. Santiago shares his unique perspective on building ecosystems and how it can be applied across different contexts to create positive, lasting change.Tune in for a deep dive into:Designing ecosystems through a nature-inspired lensApproaching systems thinking in different cultural contextsEvolving from ...
16 Aug 2024
Uncovering networks & the future of AI in research | Episode 12
After a long hiatus, we're excited to return and bring you the voices of those tackling tough problems! In this episode, Kumu Founder and CEO Jeff Mohr sits down with Cassandra Gould van Praag, Senior Community Manager at The Alan Turing Institute. Cassandra plays a key role in fostering and growing a dynamic community of researchers, practitioners, and enthusiasts. She recently launched a captivating Kumu project that visualizes her community and is now sharing with us what she learned from ...
13 Jan 2020
Cultivating energy for systems change | Episode 11
This week we’re joined by Chris Block, who is currently the Chronic Homelessness Initiative Director at Tipping Point Foundation. Previously he was the CEO of American Leadership Forum, Silicon Valley, as well as a number of other roles all really in the thick of it, as a systems leader working on systems change. I think you’ll find he has a fascinating background, with lots of insights to share, so let’s dive in.Read the full transcript on the In Too Deep blog.*Audio is not optimal for this ...
27 Aug 2019
Leading with questions, not answers | Episode 10
This week we are joined by Gene Bellinger. Gene is one of the most prolific systems thinkers, an early founder of Systems Thinking World, and one of the earliest and most influential evangelists of Kumu (there are a number of features that you should be thanking Gene for). In this episode we explore Gene's path to systems thinking, what it takes to do it well, and why he so rarely uses that term anymore.Head over to the In Too Deep blog for the full transcript.
4 Jun 2019
The case for smaller, more humble systemic interventions | Episode 9
This week we’re joined with Odin Mühlenbein who is a partner at Ashoka Germany and also a lead of the systems unit at Ashoka Globalizer. He’s also the co-author of a recent report, From Small to Systemic which looks at the multi-billion euro potential in social innovation.Head over to the In Too Deep blog for the full transcript.
23 Apr 2019
Everyone a network weaver | Episode 8
This week we're joined by June Holley, who is a longtime network weaver and author of The Network Weaving Handbook. She's spent much of her career working with communities, often times low-income communities, on complex issues, taking both a systems and a network lens informed by complexity principles.In this conversation we touch on lots of different topics from the basics of how do you collect really good, compelling information about the people in your network and see how that network chan...
13 Mar 2019
Discovering our common humanity through participatory mapping and collective impact | Episode 7
This week we have longtime community member Aldo de Moor joining us. Some of you may remember him from one of our original podcasts. Since we last spoke with Aldo, he's been busy refining his CommunitySensor participatory methodology with communities across the globe.In this episode we catch up with Aldo to learn about how his approach has evolved, what he's learning about how to engage communities in shared sensemaking, what it takes to make maps that are meaningful to communities, and how p...
12 Mar 2019
Experimental, multi-disciplinary approaches to systems change and social innovation | Episode 6
We’re joined today by Sam Rye. Sam is a self-described unapologetic generalist who has left his mark on a number of different organizations. Enspiral, Social Labs, Lifehack to name a few. In today’s conversation we’ll touch on a variety of topics. Anything from the role of nature in encouraging greater presence and leading to strategic insight. How to have a more experimental focus and combine systems analysis, strategy, and prototyping. And the need to focus way more than we do on relationsh...
12 Mar 2019
Exploring complex systems through lived experiences using System Effects | Episode 5
Luke Craven is a research fellow at the University of New South Wales and the developer of the System Effects methodology. Today we'll explore a number of different topics: why Luke decided to create this approach, what some of the challenges were with traditional systems mapping approaches, and find out about some of the secrets that Luke has come across for how to bring the user understanding of complex systems and recenter that lived experience in social science and policy making practice....
22 Jan 2019
Co-creating investment opportunities with marginalized communities | Episode 3
Jenna Nicholas is the CEO of Impact Experience, an organization that helps build deep relationships between impact investors, foundations, entrepreneurs, artists and local leaders to co-create solutions with marginalized communities. Listen to learn about her work ensuring insights and leadership are coming from communities themselves, and how they use a curriculum that builds a foundation of trust and understanding to unlock greater forms of capital and partnerships.
22 Jan 2019
Reshaping how we design, execute, and adapt strategy over time | Episode 1
Karen is founder of Engaging Inquiry, a consulting practice whose mission is to bring light to complexity. Engaging Inquiry works with teams around the world to reshape the way they think about designing, executing and adapting strategy over time to have impact in the world.
22 Jan 2019
Creating a future where nature and people can thrive together | Episode 4
Josh Goldstein is a Director of the Bridge Collaborative at The Nature Conservancy, where he works to bring about fundamental changes about how we think, plan and fund work across the environment, health and development communities. Josh's work pushes against the dominant paradigm that we can either support economic development OR protect the environment, and instead looks at how The Nature Conservancy's work can benefit both nature and people.
22 Jan 2019
Embracing complexity and interconnection in governmental policy development | Episode 2
Jolyon Swinburn is a Policy Analyst at the Ministry of Environment in New Zealand. In this role, he brings a multi-domain approach that recognizes how interconnected our various natural assets are and how we can use that mindset to create more effective policies.
Reach and audience
Public platform figures. Ratings count people who left a rating, not total listeners.
YouTube views
1,171
Score snapshot 15 Sept 2025
Apple Podcasts (US)
5.0 / 5
6 ratings
Spotify
5.0 / 5
4 ratings
Podcast Authority Score: 29 / 100
A composite of feed quality, social presence, YouTube performance and engagement. Read the methodology.
Quality
19
Social presence
0
YouTube
68
Engagement
32
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