Life's Booming

About Life's Booming

DARE: The Time of Your Life Now hosted by Jean Kittson, DARE: The Time of Your Life, formerly Life’s Booming, is a podcast series by Australian Seniors, for Australian seniors. Now in our 7th series, we explore the many facets of senior life – from tearing up the ageing rulebook, relationships and travel to mortality, legacy and everything in between. Jean taps into her guests’ inner worlds, uncovering their dreams, fears and desires. Step into the lives of over 50s Australians and download an episode today. The podcast is available at seniors.com.au/podcast (http://seniors.com.au/podcast) or: Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@australianSeniors/featured) (https://www.youtube.com/@LoveUro) Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/lifes-booming/id1531981819) (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/below-the-belt-with-dr-christopher-love/id1671919668) Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/7FR8byyGrWh7VisoLo9vkE?si=8f35af1b9a914925) (https://open.spotify.com/show/1RyosjAaUWbK7zv3pCvbCN) For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast (http://seniors.com.au/podcast) Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency (https://mediumrarecontent.com/), in conjunction with Myrtle & Pine (myrtleandpine.com)

Publisher

Australian Seniors

Category

society & culture

Language

en

Explicit

Yes

First episode

15 Sept 2020

Latest episode

26 May 2026

Latest episodes

50 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   26 May 2026

   Creative Renaissance with Denise Scott and Dr Helen English

   See omnystudio.com/listener (https://omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

2. 

   19 May 2026

   Playing The Long Game, with Neil Perry and Dr Amanda Ferguson

   Keeping yourself fit and healthy and in shape is vital for life’s long game. And no-one understands that more than celebrated chef Neil Perry, who chats with organisational psychologist Dr Amanda Ferguson about what it takes to survive the demanding restaurant game for more than 40 years. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA. Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background, who instead continue to survive and thrive in the long game of life. Neil Perry (https://themargaretfamily.com/venue/margaret/) is Australia’s most decorated chef. The culinary genius behind Rockpool and winner of the 2024 World’s 50 Best Icon Award, Neil has spent 40 years at the very top of his craft, including his latest venture, the Margaret Family Group (https://themargaretfamily.com/). Staying there hasn’t been accidental. It takes relentless passion, resilience, and an unwavering belief that what you put on the plate – and into your body – genuinely matters. Dr Amanda Ferguson (https://www.dramandaferguson.com.au/) is a registered psychologist, organisational psychologist, author and speaker, whose three-decade career has been devoted to helping people find meaning, motivation and wellbeing in work, life and relationships. – Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcXERmUA72rvqHUCc_Bq2n4lG6cZenGJx) (https://www.youtube.com/@LoveUro) (https://www.youtube.com/@LoveUro) Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/lifes-booming/id1531981819) (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/below-the-belt-with-dr-christopher-love/id1671919668) Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/7FR8byyGrWh7VisoLo9vkE?si=8f35af1b9a914925) (https://open.spotify.com/show/1RyosjAaUWbK7zv3pCvbCN) For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast (http://seniors.com.au/podcast) Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency (https://mediumrarecontent.com/) -- TRANSCRIPT: Jean Kittson: DARE the time of your life, formerly Life's Booming, is brought to you by Australian Seniors in partnership with RSPCA. For more episodes of this and our Life's Booming series, visit seniors.com.au/podcast. Hi, I'm Jean Kittson. Welcome to the latest season, Better with Age, where we are celebrating Australians who are living, working, and ageing on their own terms. No ageing stereotypes for them. This week's episode is called Playing the Long Game, and no one exemplifies what that means more than our first guest, Neil Perry. With a career spanning more than four decades, he is one of our most influential chefs. Indeed, he's the only Australian to receive the prestigious World's 50 Best Restaurants Icon Award, the food oscars. The culinary genius behind Rockpool, and his latest venture, the Margaret Family Group, Neil has survived the often brutal hospitality world without disappearing or burning out. And joining him is Dr Amanda Ferguson, registered psychologist, organisational psychologist, author, and speaker whose career has been devoted to helping people find meaning, motivation, and wellbeing in work, life and relationships. Neil and Amanda, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Neil Perry: Thanks, Jean. Good to be here. Jean Kittson: Neil, the restaurant business is often very brutal, long hours, highly competitive, stressful, fickle market, lots of pressures, all that, not that I want you to feel any pressure from me about this, but you've not only survived, but you've thrived for over 40 years. So, what do you think is the key ingredient or the secret ingredient to your longevity? Neil Perry: Well, I think just the enthusiasm of which I approach every day because, I mean, you know, it is an old cliche, but they say if you find a job you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life. And I am lucky enough to have found, you know, something that's intrinsic in lifestyle. So I kind of dream about food. I eat food, I wake up, I work in it. You know, my whole focus on a daily basis is about my restaurants, my staff and how we grow and continually evolve. So, I've kind of spent the last 51 years in the industry continually evolving rather than, you know, sort of deciding, oh my God, I've gotta change what I'm doing. I'm just day by day trying to do better than I did the day before. And that's a kind of mantra that we roll into the entire team so that they're always thinking about getting better and more focused and getting the best out of themselves and growing as people, which is really important. So, I think that's helped me keep an edge to continually keep thinking that. You know, I've got a role in the industry and I wanna keep moving forward. And, you know, tomorrow is another day and it's another day that I get an opportunity to be better than I was the day before. Jean Kittson: And you translate that to your teams by the sound of it, that is important. Neil Perry: Until I was 25, I was working front of house and managing restaurants and running restaurants, which has kind of helped me become a restaurateur rather than just a chef. And then at 25 transitioned into the kitchen and it was really obvious to me that there tended to be a kind of ‘us and them’ culture in the restaurant business. And we see with a lot of things at the moment on chefs and the way they treat people and they have treated people, and particularly in Europe, that it can be a very hard place to be. But, I made a very conscious decision to try and make it, you know – more about the way my personality is anyway – but to make it a place where it was really, everyone working together as one team, no front and back of house. It was, you know, really everyone coming together to make sure that the most important person in the room was the customer – and that we were supporting each other. So through the care philosophy, which, you know, is a really simple word, but it embodies itself in so many things that we do. So, you know, we care about our incredible suppliers. They're the lifeblood of our restaurant. Our amazing farmers and fishermen and, you know, incredible vignerons and so forth. And then it's really about caring about the place in which we work, because I really love to have a restaurant that's as beautiful 10 or 15 years down the track as it is the day that it opens. More patina, of course, but like a great pair of shoes – loved and comfortable – and that's really important to me. And then core to, I guess, the whole thing is we gotta care about each other. So we try to make sure that, you know, we're checking in. Are you okay? You know, are you doing your mise en place or can I help you set up the restaurant? And make sure that if we think somebody's coming in and they've got issues at home or with relationships, or even with a relationship within the restaurant, that we're trying to solve that and make sure that we can get to the point where we're all pulling in the same direction. And then for us, community's key. So caring about our community. We've always been involved in fundraisers and trying to help people that are less fortunate than us. We're in a very privileged position to be able to do that as restaurateurs and chefs. And then care about the environment because if we don't have clean air and clean water and clean earth, we can't get that amazing produce. It's my role to make them better chefs, better waiters, better sommeliers, better managers. But I like to make them better people. I always say at every large staff gathering, probably most of them under 30, that, you know, my generation kind of sucked the marrow out of the world, and it's up to them to make sure that the next generation of leaders are held to account. So, I do try to get them to think about community, you know, sustainability and politics – and their role in it. And that makes them hopefully, you know, more rounded people. Jean Kittson: Well, it sounds to me that longevity we're talking about and that success, so it would go the other way too. Do you get a lot of support from them? Because you give them so much care and attention and your expertise and you're bringing them up. And do they support you when there's challenges as well? Neil Perry: Yeah, of course. I mean, I always say that I'm kind of like a vampire. So, you know, I run this amazing team of people with huge amounts of energy and youth and they need to be guided and sort of, you know, given opportunities in life. But in return, I get so much energy and so much joy from them that that actually keeps me young. I look through my eyes and I actually think that I'm their age, you know? Jean Kittson: And Amanda, in your work, in different industries, do you see this teamwork as part of an essential ingredient as well in different industries? What helps your clients? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Every industry is different in terms of how much teamwork you're gonna have and gonna need. Certainly in Neil's area, you can see the necessity of people there physically, and yet we've got a lot of remote working now and a lot of organisations have pivoted that way. But I think, Neil, you were talking beautifully about a whole lot of organisational psychology concepts like growth mindset; that the growth factor of helping these younger people moving forward and growing. And we know that the growth mindset is important for all ages and you know, fundamental to performance anyway, but then to ageing performance, this engagement Neil's talking about, what makes him engaged and motivated internally. That's what we know, as we get older, matters even more than when we're younger. So a lot of your younger staff, they're really motivated by extrinsic, which is external reward, which is building their careers and gaining money and being able to put down any roots that they can do at the time of their lives. And yet, these internal motivations are what are driving us as we age increasingly, which is about contributing, which is the influence you're having, the legacy you're creating. And that clearly motivates you as well with the care concept there, which is a wonderful driving factor. Jean Kittson: Do you think that keeps people more engaged with the work they do and able to meet challenges better? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, as long as you shift with your motivation. So we change across the lifespan, and Ericsson talked about the tasks of different ages and stages of life. Those travel with us during, staying at the top of our game. And so as long as we keep negotiating them, which is where our motivation's gonna change. So now, you know in our 60's, the main motivation there for the life stage is about legacy, and then it's gonna become wisdom, and moving into the wisdom part that we're negotiating with. So it's like in any generation pivoting, continuing to pivot even in older age. And you know, not giving up, you know, that there is a choice there that people make and have to be conscious of. Ericsson said at 63, it's a real challenge of; are you gonna regenerate or are you going to degenerate? Jean Kittson: Right. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. Neil Perry: I think it's really important for people to recognise that a lot of things that happen to them are within their control. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Mm-hmm. Neil Perry: So for me, you know, I'll be 70 next year, so in 10 years I'm 80. So, you get a choice of thinking, well, you know, I've got 11, hopefully, very mobile years ahead of me. Because there's no guarantee physically, particularly when you've worked as many hours as I have and worn out most of the joints in your body, that you're going to be fabulously mobile. But it's important for me now, like, as we all know with longevity, like muscle mass is very important. So it's important for me to do enough exercise and it's really important for me to also think about balance and also flexibility. The three things that probably give you the most opportunity to get into your 80s and live the sort of life you'd still love to lead. And I know people who I always say are very inspirational to me who are like that hitting their eighties and, you know, still going out and playing golf and going on holidays and still working and doing things and I think that'll always be a very important part of my life. I couldn't imagine retiring. I could imagine taking it a little bit easier, you know, maybe not working every weekend, but I couldn't imagine not having the motivation mentally to come in and set parameters and talk to the chefs and speak to the wonderful fishermen and the farmers and the people that are the most important people in my life. So I just think for me, it's a matter of kind of putting the energy into those things that will give me the kind of outcome that I want. Dr Amanda Ferguson: And that's your internal motivation. Neil Perry: Yeah. There's a very traditional, you know, big pharma way of thinking about medicine and the body. And we now know that there's a very well documented and proven, you know, functional way of looking at it. We know diet's really important, so I eat really well. I mean, one of the things that's great for me is I don't eat really any processed food at all, probably except for bacon, which I love. Jean Kittson: You said processed. That's not processed. It's just dry. Neil Perry: Not really. It's like when I make our hamburgers, people say, ‘oh yeah, you eat a hamburger.’ Yeah, it's like freshly ground beef. That's what it is. It's got properly made sauces and it's got a bun, you know, so it's actually pretty good for you. I'm not sure about the other processed ones but, you know, I do think if you eat a lot of whole food, it's really important. I mean, my probably one sin in my life is I love red wine. So, I'm thinking a lot about, you know, how much I drink and maybe I should cut back. But every time I think about that it's just, you know. Jean Kittson: Too hard! Neil Perry: I think is it worth an extra couple of years? Maybe not. Jean Kittson: No, that's right. Benefit. Neil Perry: You gotta get the balance. Jean Kittson: Risk benefit. Risk benefit. Amanda, do you see that people with longevity in their chosen careers, do you see that as a psychological important part of them surviving, you know, playing the long game? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Oh, absolutely. And look, most of those people will either have really pivoted in their careers away from say, line management to supervising or training in a corporate kind of job. Or if you're lucky enough, I think as both Neil and I are, to actually love what you do and live to work because we get so much like a vampire back from the… Jean Kittson: Yes. Dr Amanda Ferguson: The beautiful energy of what we give out and what comes back. And that's engagement, that's called employee or work engagement, where we love and like our work. So clearly the cognition side that Neil loves, you know, the way he thinks about all his work as well as emotionally, what he's gaining and giving, and giving out cognitively – so everyone has a different long game. You know, I'll often say to people who have worked to live; ‘don't just retire, retire to something.’ And that's when they may sort of, you know, think of buying another business that is actually non-corporate, where they can have their staff if they're similarly engaged or creative outlets where they can really be more creative in the workplace or in hobbies or pursuits or golf. So, you know, the long game may be pivoting to being the brilliant golfer in your peer group. Jean Kittson: Right. Using your energy in your, yeah, well that sounds pretty good. but use that drive… Neil Perry: Frustrating game though. Jean Kittson: Yes. Frustrating game. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, yes, use the pivoting drives because as we age, the reason that we are motivated changes. So it's typically becoming, as we are entering post 50s, we're moving from – and certainly from late forties – we're moving from being really motivated by caring for others to wanting to build a legacy. And so if you feel your legacy is in the community, say, of having the surf club managed really that legacy may matter. And even having a plaque for yourself or you might become an elder to the local surf group. So, it's the pivoting and noticing and negotiating the lifespan changes that you have to go through in order to keep this motivation, engagement, growth mindset and risk failure – and have fun along the way. I mean, all those basic performance motivations and factors, they all still apply in older age. We draw on that breadth of knowledge and survive and thrive because of that, you know, it doesn't matter that the cognitive decline is happening. If you are pivoting, if you're compensating with all of that knowledge and ability and, you know, even muscle memory that you would have, definitely for your work. Jean Kittson: I think they call it crystallised experience. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. Jean Kittson: Have you heard that expression? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. Jean Kittson: Yes. So that's very valuable to workplaces. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. Jean Kittson: I know you've been talking about legacy and I would think that Neil's already got an enormous legacy. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Exactly. Jean Kittson: And you could, you know, leave the business tomorrow and you'd still be as renowned and as admired and respected. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Except the care of the younger people. Neil Perry: Yeah, absolutely. Getting young people to care. I mean, it starts really with kind of, you know, you get young 16, 17-year-old people coming and working with us. I mean, we're very lucky through COVID that my daughters were in year 9 and 11. And when we came out of COVID and staff was very difficult, we'd already been doing, sort of, takeaway and burgers and everything we possibly could to survive. And one of the things that all these young kids loved, they loved coming and working for us because they're very social. And all of a sudden, for four months of their life, they were like, you guys cannot be together. So, for them to come and work and putting little bits of sources in containers and doing all that stuff. But to see them sit around a table, eight of them, and laughing and, you know, engaging and being social was just so wonderful because I know, with my girls, you could really sense that they were struggling and they really missed that. So they then came on to be, you know, the kids who worked in our restaurants, all of their friends, and they were anywhere from 15 through to 17. And we've put many of them through university. And so, they're a really important part of what Margaret is, and that makes it an incredible family restaurant beside the fact that my three daughters and wife worked there as well. So what was really wonderful was for their parents to come in and have dinner and just say, ‘thank you, you've really taught our daughters what it is to, or our son, what it is to strive,’ you know, to try to be the best you possibly can. And I just thought it was a really wonderful impact to have on young people. And then other times where we get young kids in the kitchen, 16, 17, and they're, you know, used to eating processed food and cans of drink and, you know, all the sorts of stuff that I dislike immensely. We don't force them, but we try to make them appreciate real food and whole food. And, you know, every day we have a family meal when we're open and it's not leftovers, it's a planned meal. We buy food in and our kids, you know, get in pairs and they get to prepare a family meal. We have some fantastic… Dr Amanda Ferguson: Wow. Neil Perry: dinners because we have kids from Korea and Indonesia and Singapore and China, Greece and Spain and Italy. And so we just get these amazing, very traditional meals cooked with real food. My motivation is to move the goals for those kids and to show them not just restaurant food, but what good eating is, to value and how to enjoy because, you know, part of their training is really tasting everything that we make and making sure that everything's perfectly balanced. But I want them to understand what, you know, eating and enjoying life is really all about because we have to eat to survive. So it's really wonderful. We can get great joy out of that as well. You know, it's the icing on the cake. Jean Kittson: That is a wonderful legacy, but also then they will learn and pass it on. I mean, do you see your role as a chef and a restaurateur, in the broader community, as education as well about food? Neil Perry: Yeah. Oh, very much so. And that's been like, I think I've got 11 cookbooks that I've put out since 1994 was the first one. Jean Kittson: And your recipes are fantastic, by the way. Neil Perry: Yeah. I wrote for Good Weekend for, you know, 15 years. Nearly every book is the same, in essence, because it all starts out with good cooking is good shopping. So, you know, if you buy beautiful produce, you'll end up, and that doesn't mean spending a fortune, it means cooking with a season, and often that'll be the cheapest way to buy fruit, vegetables, whatever it might be. And, you know, eating fresh food. You know, if you prepare fresh food or eat lovely fresh food when you go out, again you know, from a lifestyle point of view, it's just so much easier to process, so much better for you. You know, I really learned how to wash, dry and dress a salad properly at Stephanie's. And that's been very fundamental to all the things that I've done through my career and like people come to my place, they go, ‘oh my God, the salad's amazing.’ Well, it's just, you know, really well washed, dried and dressed and seasoned lettuce. I hope to impart on the next generation is just the fundamentals of doing stuff properly. Jean Kittson: Properly. I'm going to make sure I dry my lettuce properly now. Neil Perry: You must have a salad dry. You must dry your lettuce properly. Jean Kittson: Yes. It's pretty old. My salad dry. But to think that even three months with an elder in your business, like Stephanie, had such a big impact, shows what an elder and that experience has… Neil Perry: Well, she was older, but she wasn't that much older than… Jean Kittson: Oh I'm sorry. Neil Perry: Steph must be like, she would probably hate it if I said it, but, you know, approaching 80 or in her eighties. Jean Kittson: Oh, not that much older… Neil Perry: But back then she was probably in her early forties or whatever, and I was 26. I guess the reason it was so impactful for me is that because I'd run restaurants and managed restaurants and my father kind of taught me pretty much everything about food. Because he was a butcher, you know, mad keen angler. So we went fishing all the time on our holidays and he came from the country, so we were lucky enough to have a small garden and grew vegetables. So he taught me all about the seasons. But when I did my year of working with a whole lot of great chefs in Australia, I was 26, I'd run restaurants, you know, I'd been buying the wine, you know, doing lots of wine tastings, buying fish for the seafood restaurant I worked for, running the books, doing everything. So as soon as I jumped into that environment of working with chefs, I was like a 26-year-old, highly motivated, knew the business really well, so it really focuses you. Dr Amanda Ferguson: You've adapted and you've pivoted with the times, like you said with COVID and, you know, that's where you regenerate all the time. Neil Perry: Yeah, well, I have a nasty habit of opening restaurants in like – if I'm about to open a restaurant, anyone in the stock market should look at it and go like, ‘okay, where's my investment opportunity or divestment?’ Because when I opened Rockpool in– I started building in 1988. I opened it in the middle of the recession. We had to have, in 89, we had 18% interest rates. We'd borrowed 1.8 million, you know, Trish and I had to pay 360,000 in interest. I mean, made $0 for working 18 hours a day, six days a week for the first year. And we were just lucky that it all of a sudden hit the spot. So we were full. And I suppose the positive was unemployment was about 10%. So, it was easy to get staff. And then when I was opening Rockpool Bar and Grill in Sydney and Spice Temple, you know, we spent $11 million on that project and the GFC came along. And then the day that I was about to open Margaret in June, 2021, Gladys got on the TV and said, ‘okay, the Eastern Suburbs is shutting down.’ And then the next day she went, ‘the whole of Sydney's shutting down.’ And about a week and a half into that, feeling very sorry for myself, and this is the first time I'd owned a restaurant, 100%, you know, my own. I'd had partners before that since ‘83 all the way through. And I just remember that feeling of like, hang on. You just cannot sit here and feel sorry for yourself anymore. You've got staff to worry about, you've gotta get yourself back into action. So it was like, you know, zoom calls, getting all the staff, getting all the management team, making sure that everybody who worked for us was having the opportunity to engage in any government relief that they possibly could through the job keeper and workforce scenarios with state and federal. And importantly recognising what we could pivot to and how we can engage with the community. And it was incredible. We worked our butts off for four months. I made absolutely $0, but I didn't lose anything. And that was with a whack of government assistance. I'd been lucky enough to do some trials and have some corporate sellouts before they shut us down, before we were supposed to officially open. And it was an extraordinary time, but it meant that those 50 people that we were all working together every day, albeit not running the restaurant, but we were living in the restaurant. We were moving through the kitchen. We were cooking, we were doing all this stuff. And then we got to retrain again, and then we opened. And it's the best restaurant opening I've ever done. So we were under restrictions, we couldn't do as many people, but it was just extraordinary. And, to this day, like in the entire, probably open 27 restaurants in my life. So, that was just, you know, the most extraordinary opening ever because we had the time to do it properly. Dr Amanda Ferguson: So, that's a beautiful vignette I think of self-compassion, which is that hang on, you know, you can't feel sorry for your self courage. And the wisdom that, you know, I’ve done it before, pivoted before with major world crises. Do it again. Neil Perry: Yeah. Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you did it. Jean Kittson: Do you find that as a common experience for people who can… Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. Jean Kittson: Have longevity? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. Because again, we've got the wisdom. We may not have as much cognitive capacity. We've got the wisdom. If you can find the courage, you know, and a lot of elderly people don't have that. They lose it because of ageism around us. It's having a big effect, the loss of self-esteem, but we have more ability to self-regulate, the research shows, generally, most of us. And so, you regulated yourself, which is very much about resilience and self-management and, you know, the wisdom that you drew on. And so it's leaning into the database that we really have inside ourselves, and the knowledge that isn't just about conscious ability. It's about, okay, I've been there before. Obviously you must have cast back to oh, we did the GFC, we did the other challenges. This is just another one. And age gives us that perspective that, okay, we are looking now from here to death, whereas people earlier– sorry younger than us are looking from how long I've been alive to where I am now. So that perspective… Jean Kittson: Right. Neil Perry: There is an end to this game. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, you're right. I mean, I probably, it's only about five years, so probably since I was 64 or 65, I just started, you know, having these odd moments not of, you know, not of depression or, you know, dark thoughts. I've only got so long to achieve what I want to achieve. You know, so before, you're right, you were kind of looking forward, just going like, oh, there's no end game to this. Let's just keep forging forward. It's certainly a life perspective change that happens to you. Jean Kittson: So do you think the long game turns into the shorter game maybe? Neil Perry: Yeah. Gotta get this done game. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Or have fun while we can game! Jean Kittson: Or how do I ensure, really. When people– I'm just a little bit confused 'cause there's self-compassion. But what Neil mentioned kept him going was not self pity. So, what’s the difference? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Self-compassion is completely different. And this is where we are finding a lot of, you know, high performing musicians and elite athletes cringe at the idea that they should take on self-compassion. No, it's about beating yourself up to get to move forward. Yeah. And then when you really counsel them that it's about courage. It's about wisdom that you're going to keep tearing your muscles if you keep pushing forward when you are actually having a weak day. Take some wisdom there and just back off a bit on the training. It's not, you know, feeling sorry for yourself. You know, a lot of people think, oh, self-compassion is self-soothing and positive talk. And if you dig deeper into the current research, it really is about this courage mindset, this wisdom mindset, even at younger ages. And once these younger people wrap their mind around it, and they take it on, they perform better. Look at Roger Federer. You know, look how he had to develop this self-compassion of courage and wisdom to learn how to play the ball. You know, he didn't retire till 41, but he was burning out and he was focused on performance and any failure, he was visibly, you know, having tantrums. He had to pivot his mindset to this courage, determination, grit, but also this mental resilience factor where it's not emotional now. And that's what you would've done too. You would've gone into the mindset that was needed, which is a growth mindset. It's like, how do we pivot? How do we learn? And Federer is a great public example, as are you, of course. Jean Kittson: When people lose their confidence as they get older because they are undermined, there is ageism, they probably feel that they are not achieving what they used to achieve on certain levels. Maybe it's, you know, they lose their confidence because of the way they talk to themselves, but also the way, external factors, some people are retrenched. How do people– how have you found that people overcome that lack of confidence? Dr Amanda Ferguson: So many different ways, Jean. You know, again, it's play to your strengths. I've counseled people who've been retrenched seven times, you know, it's like, you know, sick of that now the corporate burn and churn wheel, you know, is it time to pivot into something different if you're that jaded? And others are like no, I'm gonna start my own business. I've got a podcast on how it's an internal external conundrum – confidence. It's what you're thinking, so yes, the mindset, but it's also what you're doing to keep your confidence because the research shows that most of us know we're losing cognitive capacity. And if you’re then pivoting, accordingly, rather than feeling unconfident about that, that's just a part of life. Where’s all the rest of your confidence? Because we do know that if you do compensate with all the other confidence areas that we've got in wisdom, knowledge, expertise, experience, you know, the perspective of we’re looking towards the end of life now and that gives us a fantastic perspective that we need in our phase of life. Jean Kittson: Yes, and to pass on to others. Yeah. When you say we are losing cognitive capacity. Is it capacity or function? What ability? Dr Amanda Ferguson: It’s capacity. Yeah. Jean Kittson: Capacity. That's a scary thing because I think, oh, you mean we can't think as clearly, but I feel like I can make better decisions now than I ever could. So what is that word? Cognitive. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Information processing. It's very much up-skilling, re-skilling. We know that older people typically don't want to retrain. They don't want to relearn new things unless you can pivot them to what motivates them. Now, you are motivated about passing on and standards and excellence and your influence continuing. And so you've probably, you know, you are relearning as you go, what's happening with the economy, so that I can continue to be confident and have my capacity working for me. So, it's an unconscious thing we are doing, really, that we're compensating from capacity, which is about information processing, about retraining to, well, I'm willing to retrain. I'm willing to understand what's happening for the farmers, for the economy, for the fuel supply, for what organisational psychology calls VUCA times that we're in which is volatile, uncertain, challenging, ambiguous. You know, I'm relearning about the state of the world because my motivation is helping people of course. And so, if I wasn't motivated by that, I wouldn't use my cognitive ability that I do still have left for that. So, it's the combination of so many different factors at play as we age. Neil Perry: So Amanda, is that in speed of processing or is that just capacity of processing? Dr Amanda Ferguson: It's in speed. We don't want to work an 80 hour week anymore. So, that lack of cognitive ability that the twenties has – when we're in our twenties – we happily do an 80 hour week. We're just not interested and it's harder. The labour for that cognitively is harder because of our loss of capacity. And so, we have to keep pivoting. We have to keep drawing on the growing skillset that we do have, which is more about the wisdom and knowledge base that is so broad that we don't even realise what we're using often. And that continues to grow in middle age. Neil Perry: Yeah. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Into older age, and the research shows we can perform as well as people in their twenties. Neil Perry: By using that capacity of what we know as opposed to what they don't know. Dr Amanda Ferguson: That's right. Neil Perry: Yeah. Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you're not even conscious a lot of the times what you're drawing on. Neil Perry: Yeah. Dr Amanda Ferguson: That body of research is so robust. There's this concept that's totally misconstrued that we are less able as we get older. Jean Kittson: I think that whole cognitive decline is so loaded. I really, find... Neil Perry: Well, we live in the age of Alzheimer's and dementia and, I mean, you know… Jean Kittson: Yes, of course. Neil Perry: I just don't ever remember growing up, when I was younger, and ever hearing that term. And of course now it's like ADHD and everything that's happening with kids now, and everyone on the spectrum – and that just was not happening when I was younger. I just don't ever remember it even in my forties. But now, in the last 20 years, everything seems to be so focused on all of the various mindsets that can happen to a person. Jean Kittson: I just feel that the restaurant industry has retained so much of its human content. Neil Perry: Yeah, absolutely. Jean Kittson: Humanity, eating together with your team. And the care of food and the environment, it all goes hand in hand. So you are very lucky to be part of… Neil Perry: Yeah. Jean Kittson: That sector, rather. Neil Perry: Well, you know, somebody said to me the other day, ‘oh, when do you think you'll start using Tesla robots?’ And I said, ‘well, how about never?’ Our main focus is to create great memories, right? I tell everybody, ‘yeah, sure we're in the restaurant business,’ but our main focus is to create great memories. And that's what drives our business – word of mouth. People say, ‘oh my God, I have the best time at Margaret.’ And it was interesting because in 2002, I got a phone call from Scott Bowles, who is still doing Short Black, which is the gossip column in the Sydney Morning Herald for food. And he said a magazine in London, they asked 300 people their five favorite restaurant experiences in the world. And Rockpool finished fourth. And I thought, wow, that's incredible. And I spent seven years on that list. But, I came back to my team and I said, ‘see, we're in Sydney and most of these people would not have been to Sydney, so we must have got a lot of hits on the ones that did.’ So, that's living proof that great memories are created in this restaurant. By having you feel like this is your second home, you know, like our regulars are so important and anybody who's a first time visitor is a great opportunity to create a regular. That's how we look at it. Jean Kittson: Yes. Neil Perry: And we want people to feel like this is their second home. They're so comfortable here. You know, we know what they drink. We know what they like. We know the interactions and conversations and we want people to just think, oh, I've just gotta get back to Margaret, because I not only love the food, but I just love this whole experience of feeling like I'm part of the family. I don't think you'll ever be able to AI replace that. And I hope I'm well dead and buried if it ever happens, because it would break my heart if that happened. Jean Kittson: If we all had to do everything online and then, well, even the QR code doesn't code, doesn't… Neil Perry: Drive you crazy. Jean Kittson: In the pubs, now you order your food on the QR code. Neil Perry: I'm lucky enough to be well positioned to know people in restaurants that I want to go to or even around the world. So, I just never get online and make a booking. You know, it's always a phone call or a quick text or something, but all that stuff just takes the romance. I mean, I almost, I thought I wanted to give up restaurants when I got to the stage where we had to bring the EFTPOS machine over and leave it. I just thought romance is dead. Okay. I got over that. We moved on, and the technology works really well for everybody now. And, I guess the one thing about the stuff of the ordering and what have you as more and more restaurants move towards – potentially not even that – but different opportunities with technology on table, you'll still have waiters and all that stuff, but, you know, you get the walk, the check ability and all. It's just making life more convenient. But again, a lot of this is at the expense of the romance of what it's all about. And, you don't have a great memory of a seamless experience. You have a great memory of an interactive experience. Dr Amanda Ferguson: But you seem to be compensating for that with the care mentality. Neil Perry: Yeah. You have to. Jean Kittson: So Amanda, when Neil was talking about creating memories, do you think that translates into other businesses as well? Or even socially? I suppose, if we all thought that every interaction, we were creating some sort of memory, maybe we would get more pleasure ourselves from life and give other people more pleasure. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Well, that's one of the internal motivators for our age group is the fact that we're connecting socially with other people for those memories, for the feel good in ourself. If that's about creating memories for others, maybe having memories for ourselves as well. That's driving us more at this age group. It's about memories and it's about pleasure and enjoyment and having fun. Neil Perry: And all those experience, kind of, industries are obviously doing the same thing, you know, whether that’s in the travel industry or events, airlines, you know, whatever it might be. That interaction that you have, you want people to get a lot of joy out of it. Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you want them to remember. I want them to remember, ‘oh, that's right. Amanda said 10 years ago,’ you know, because we’re in the people business. Neil Perry: Absolutely. And conversely, the fundamental thing that you have to get is job satisfaction. If you are already enjoying what you do, all the stuff we talk about with care, it's just not gonna come through. You know, all that has to be delivered with a genuine spirit of hospitality and that can't be done unless you are loving what you do and you're getting a lot of joy out of it. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Job satisfaction is engagement. That was my PhD area, that you love and like your work. So it's cognitive and emotional. Neil Perry: Yeah. Dr Amanda Ferguson: And that's where you're giving memories. Creating memories. You're making memories for yourself. Jean Kittson: And so do you ever say to people who have not enjoyed their work and they're now in their fifties, do you ever sort of suggest they may like to find something they like doing? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. Yes. If they've not enjoyed it, but they've worked for reasons that are external motivators like money, providing that kind of thing, they've now got an opportunity – especially with the perspective of, okay, we are now living to the end of our lives. What's gonna be important to you now, so that when you're on your deathbed, you can look back at the memories and go, I have got no regrets. Neil Perry: You crystallise that very well, Amanda. When you're on your deathbed. Jean Kittson: Is there something you would've told your 50-year-old self, which you were 20 years ago? It's hard to believe, isn’t it? Neil Perry: I know it is. Jean Kittson: Is there anything that you would've told your 50-year-old self that you know now that you would've thought, I would've done that differently or anything? Neil Perry: Look, you know, I've made a couple of mistakes in the past two years that I wish I hadn't, but experience told me that I shouldn't have done it, but I did. And it was partly, you know, just being drunk on the success of Margaret and vesting a lot in Double Bay that I probably shouldn't have done. You know, I'm happy where I am now, so I always managed to fight my way out of these things. But yeah, look, I would probably just sit back and say, ‘hey, just run the numbers one more time and remember all the things that you said that you were never going to do.’ Because there were a whole lot of red flags on what I did. And I’d never do a restaurant where it’s got da, da, da. Never do da, never do this, never do that. Did all of them because I really wanted it. And I think back then, I was 50 when I started, or a little bit younger, when I started building the Rockpool Bar and Grill part of our life, which was the business that I managed to sell for quite a bit of money and set myself up for life really. But, I was very focused on not making those mistakes. So maybe my 50-year-old self should be telling my almost 70-year-old self – or my 67-year-old self when I made these decisions – stay by your code of conduct and don't get over enthusiastic. Jean Kittson: Yeah, dry that lettuce. Neil Perry: Dry that lettuce. Exactly. So interestingly, I don't regret anything in my life, really. But I do think that when you are in a situation where you've lived as long and you've been in the industry for as long as I have been, and you've managed to have as much success, it's really very satisfying to look back and think about. And it was hard work, all the hard work that you put in, but, you know, all the rewards that you got from it. Jean Kittson: All the rewards that other people got too. Bringing training and mentoring and bringing up such a team. For someone who mainly works on their own, I just admire that so much and I feel that that must be one of your greatest legacies. Not only educating us all about food and introducing us to wonderful recipes and experiences and memories, but just what you've contributed to the following generations. Neil Perry: Well, I've got to, I've worked with an enormous amount of people. I mean I don't even know how I could figure it out, but it'd be, I don’t know, 50,000 people over my career probably. Jean Kittson: Wow. That's amazing. Congratulations. Well, Amanda, like you were saying before, so we don't have regrets on our death bed – I'm gonna have quite a few. Don't you worry about that. And, I may be seeking your advice on how to manage those regrets. But, most of us will have regrets and part of the resilience of getting older is how to manage, you know, mistakes we've made and how to sort of, I suppose, work out in our minds why that might have happened and forgive ourselves or move on. And do you find that that's a very important part of getting older and keeping on going? Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, yes. Good that you mentioned resilience because that, in the research, is about self-regulation. So, managing ourselves and social competency. So, being able to manage dealing with other people and communication, relationships, conflict resolution. So yeah, resilience is the key factor to prevent burnout, to help with engagement. It's very important, and to avoid regrets. Yeah. Your example, Neil is exactly one of those that you manage yourself better now and we learned through failure. I mean, you can't avoid failure if you’re going to keep growing in your life and stay at the top of your game, failure's just part of it. Neil Perry: Oh, you've gotta embrace failure. Yeah. I mean, you know, you learn 10 times more from failure than it is from success. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Neil Perry: So yeah, that's failing and then not being afraid to reengage, that's really important. Because some people fail and it causes them to overthink a lot and it causes them to not take the opportunities that are in front of them. So, it's really making sure that you look at the next opportunity and how do I make sure that those things aren't engaged in the thing going forward. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Exactly. Jean Kittson: Well, I think that is a really great way to end this conversation about continuing to fail is not a failure. Like continuing to fail is a good thing because you're taking risks and you're growing. And you have the confidence to not be damaged by it. Dr Amanda Ferguson: As Neil says, you can't avoid failure. If you fail to continue to be at the top of your game, there's a failure. But if you’re going to stay at the top of your game, you're gonna have to face failure. And that's a growth mindset. And welcome it because you're learning. Neil Perry: Yeah. Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you're still learning as you're getting older. How fabulous. Jean Kittson: How fabulous. Neil Perry: It's really about the amount of happiness that you have. So, there's no, no point in living an extra 10 years if you're not happy. Jean Kittson: Yeah. Neil Perry: So that's the key to life is like get to the end and be happy with where you've been, what you've done, and where you are. Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Agree. Jean Kittson: I agree too. That's fabulous. Thank you so much. Thank you, Neil. Thank you, Amanda. Thanks to our guests, Neil Perry and Dr Amanda Ferguson. You've been listening to Better with Age, season seven of DARE: The Time of Your Life, formally Life's Booming. Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know and visit seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May you dare to live your best life. I'm Jean Kittson. Thank you. See omnystudio.com/listener (https://omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

3. 

   12 May 2026

   Fifty Shades of Friendship, with Wendy Harmer and Dr Tim Sharp (aka 'Dr Happy')

   Broadcaster and comedian Wendy Harmer and positive psychologist Dr Tim Sharp (aka ‘Dr Happy’) lift the veil on relationships and explore what it takes to nurture our most important connections with our partners, friends, and with ourselves. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA. Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background. Wendy Harmer (https://www.hlamgt.com.au/client/wendy-harmer/) is a trailblazing comedian, broadcaster and journalist who has spent decades at the centre of Australian media and entertainment. Wendy first made her mark breaking new ground in Australia’s stand-up comedy scene before going on to become one of the country’s most recognisable media personalities and the author of bestselling books including Farewell My Ovaries. (https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Wendy-Harmer-Farewell-My-Ovaries-9781742372730) Australia’s own Dr Happy, Dr Tim Sharp (https://drhappy.com.au/) is a leading positive psychologist, bestselling author and founder of The Happiness Institute (https://thehappinessinstitute.life/), Australia’s first organisation dedicated to enhancing happiness. With a career spanning academia, clinical psychology and public speaking, he’s become one of the most recognised voices on mental health and wellbeing. Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcXERmUA72rvqHUCc_Bq2n4lG6cZenGJx) Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/lifes-booming/id1531981819) (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/below-the-belt-with-dr-christopher-love/id1671919668) Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/7FR8byyGrWh7VisoLo9vkE?si=8f35af1b9a914925) (https://open.spotify.com/show/1RyosjAaUWbK7zv3pCvbCN) For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast (http://seniors.com.au/podcast) Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency (https://mediumrarecontent.com/) -- TRANSCRIPT: Jean Kittson: Welcome back to the podcast – DARE: The Time of Your Life, formerly Life’s Booming, brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA. I'm Jean Kittson, and this season is called Better with Age where we're flipping the script and showing how ageing is not a dirty word, but rather a time to be embraced. Australians are living longer, healthier lives, and this season celebrates over 50s who are pushing the boundaries of what ageing looks like and feels like. In this episode, we are lifting the veil on relationships and exploring what it takes to nurture our most important connections with our partners, friends, and with ourselves. We've probably all experienced how relationships shift over time. It's natural, of course, but it might surprise you to know just how important they are to our overall happiness and why it's vital to keep nurturing all relationships old and new. Which brings me to our first guest, Wendy Harmer, who knows about the importance of friendships and relationships and making new ones as we age. I first met Wendy when we worked together back in the 80s, so we've been friends a long time. She's one of Australia's most beloved entertainers, a trailblazing, standup comedian, journalist, broadcaster, performer and bestselling author. Her books include the wonderful Pearly children's book series, as well as more adult titles like Farewell My Ovaries and her memoir Lies My Mirror Told Me. And joining Wendy is Dr Tim Sharp, otherwise known as Dr Happy. Tim is one of Australia's leading positive psychologists, and the founder and Chief Happiness officer at the Happiness Institute. Also a bestselling author, including The Happiness Handbook and his most recent Lost and Found. Tim has dedicated his career to helping people live happier and more flourishing lives. Tim and Wendy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you both for coming in. Wendy Harmer: Great to be here, Jean. Jean Kittson: Oh, it's lovely to have you both here. Wendy Harmer: I've got to say, Tim, the first time I set eyes on this one, what a bombshell. She would've been on stage in a nurse's uniform at The Last Laugh Theatre Restaurant. It was, at the time, playing Nurse… Jean Kittson: Pam Sandwich… Wendy Harmer: …Pam Sandwich Jean Kittson: …in Let the Blood Run Free. Wendy Harmer: And this. All arms and legs and big boobs and blonde hair and falling over and doing all this amazing physical comedy. Everyone just adored Jean – and the men, we had to fight them off with a stick. Jean Kittson: Yeah. Well those were the days, weren't they? This is what friendship's all about Tim, right? Thanks Wendy. That was lovely of you to say that. I mean, we've known each other for, well, since the early 80s. Wendy Harmer: It would have been about ‘83. Jean Kittson: And you were on stage doing stand up. See, I was doing [characters] and you were amazing, what you were talking about, women’s things – topics for women, about women and relationships. Wendy Harmer: That's right. Well, because when I first started out doing standup, it was really a bloke's domain and I thought, well, this, you know, this is ridiculous because, you know, women's lives are interesting too, and I mean, there's one thing that annoys me above anything else is saying women aren't funny. Like the idea, Tim, that you would say, ‘oh, the pet budgie can make me laugh. The dog can make me laugh, but a woman can't make me laugh.’ I mean, it really, I think it strikes to our humanity and I get really cross about that. So I've sort of been a bit of a campaigner with that, you know, rubber chook on a stick for many years. But you know, the idea, I know you have this happiness. You talk a lot about happiness. How important is laughter? Dr Happy: Very important. Well, it's a general group, laughter, fun play, all of those things, which we too often underestimate and discount. Well, we sort of see them as a nice to have, but the research is pretty clear. It's super important for a good life. It's hard to live a best life, a thriving life, a flourishing life without laughter, without fun, without play. I mean, there are many other things as well, and I'm sure we'll get to some of those other things, but a hundred percent it is a very important contributor to living a really, really good quality life. Wendy Harmer: And it's interesting too, that our sense of humor. It's not universal at all. It's formed in that crucible of the family, or indeed your chosen family like Jean. You know, we chose each other as grownups to be a family. But that, you know, there is like the punny family, there's the practical joke family. There's, you know, each family has its own particular sense of humor, doesn't it? Jean Kittson: Well, I think friendship is a really important way of maintaining humour in your life because you get together with friends to have a laugh, don't you, often? Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Jean Kittson: I mean, they're complex relationships, friendships. I mean, you've had friendships for a long time, Wendy, long-term friends. Wendy Harmer: I still have a friend who was at my 70th birthday a couple of months ago, whom I met on the school bus when I was 13 years old. So I – Gary. So I think that's pretty cool. He's the friend that I've had the longest, but you know, Jean and I have very similar trajectories in this way. We both were sort of country girls, and then we went to Melbourne and then we moved to Sydney. And that is a big dislocator, isn't it, of friendships. It's when you, you know, and we both moved to Sydney about the same time, so we left this huge coterie of friends to move to Sydney with our husbands, and then we both had kids, which is isolating as well… Jean Kittson: …definitely, it changes everything, doesn't it… Wendy Harmer: … you know, the nature of a friendship just changes so much over the years. Jean Kittson: But in terms of friendship and happiness, I mean, is friendship a really important element? You are talking about laughing, which it is, but I know when I get together with friends, we laugh a lot. But friendship is a really important part of, you know, happiness. Dr Happy: Yeah. Well, look, I've been, well, I probably should say I started out my career specialising in unhappiness. I was a clinical psychologist to begin with and an academic. So I was studying sort of stress, depression, and misery before I even discovered happiness. But I have been studying, well, what we technically call positive psychology for several decades now. And if I had to sum up everything I've learned from thousands of research articles, hundreds of books, many, many conferences about, you know, what are the most important contributors to, well not just happiness, but wellbeing more generally, longevity, physical health, et cetera, it would certainly be positive relationships. In fact, one of the – so Christopher Peterson was one of the leaders, one of the grandfathers of positive psychology, and he dedicated his life to studying, thriving and flourishing. And he was once asked, what have you learned in, you know, 50 years as a professor? And he said, I can sum it up in three words. He said, other people matter. Wendy Harmer: Wow. That is correct. Dr Happy: So yeah, it's vitally important, almost certainly the most important contributor and the most important thing we can do is prioritise fostering and developing good quality relationships. Wendy Harmer: Well, you do hear that, don't you? That people ask on their deathbed, you know, what's your regret? And it's often that I didn't spend enough time with friends or family. You have some amazing relationships, Jean, and it's funny when you have a friend and you get to know that – and Angela, she's not a friend of mine, but I know her to be your best friend and that your friendship has been amazing over the years. How long have you known Angela? Jean Kittson: Well, I've known Angela for, since we were both teachers sent to the wilderness to teach first year out teachers. So probably since we were about 21, so 50 years. But she's a long distance friend, so I would speak to this friend regularly on the phone, and we speak all the time whenever we like on the phone, but I would only see Ange maybe once or twice a year, which is another thing about friendship. I know that our friendship endures because we speak regularly and we are in touch with each other's lives. Then I have friends who live a few streets away who I don't see for months, but I don't ring because they're only a few streets away and I lose contact – I mean, we often lose contact with friends. So, how do you manage that sort of – have you lost contact with any friends? You've got a huge cohort of friends. Wendy Harmer: Oh, well, I've lost, you know, I've lost contact with lots and lots of friends. I've only once lost contact with someone on purpose. I've done the– and that was after I spent time with this friend, and I realised that every time I walked away from spending time with this friend, I felt worse about myself. There was something just subtle in the relationship that just made me feel that I wasn't smart enough or I was like overweight or I wasn't achieving or whatever. Richard Stubbs, you know, our comedian friend, he would say, Wendy, he said, ‘sometimes you go back to that well, where it's quite clearly the person doesn't wanna be friends with you, and you are like, you won't take no for an answer.’ So I'm probably the opposite. I'm probably that needy person who wants, who needs you to be my friend, maybe. Jean Kittson: Well, I think we all need friends and we don't like it when we lose contact. And then you get embarrassed because it's been so long since you called. This is my situation that I'm too scared to ring up in case they just won't pick up and then I know I'm dropped. How do you mend broken friendships if– because they can be very painful, that sort of grief of losing someone just because of neglect, really not deliberately ghosting them or anything. Because friendships need to be nurtured, need to be fed in a way, need to be maintained. Wendy Harmer: [Like this plant..] Oh, that's plastic. That's plastic! I was going to say like this house plant! Jean Kittson: Yeah. Dr Happy: Look, it's, well, there's a couple of things there. You're a hundred percent right. We– relationships do need to be worked on. Now for some people that's easier than others. There's no doubt that some people who, at the risk of oversimplifying, may be the more extroverted people who find it more enjoyable, easier. It just comes naturally to them. Some of us, some other people, need to work a bit harder at it, but it is something you need to work at. And the other thing that came out through both of that, is that things change over time, which shouldn't be a surprise. You know, as we age and as our circumstances change and as our contexts change, you know, and you get married and you have children and then you retire, and all those sorts of things. So, our relationships will change, but we do still need to work on it. We do still, it is important to have some friends, for some people that will be fewer than others. You know, so some people, some of us are happy with one or two good friends, that's enough. Other people might need five 10 or whatever. But… Wendy Harmer: I can never have enough! Dr Happy: …and that's okay. Again, we're all different. Wendy Harmer: Well, yeah. My husband is, he has the most friendships of any person I've ever met in my entire life, to the point where every now and then, it's like barnacles on a barge. I have to go down and scrape them off… Dr Happy: Are you calling your husband a barge? Wendy Harmer: …every now and then. Yeah. But then he had his 50th birthday at our house. Mind you, 350 people came. Jean Kittson: Amazing. Dr Happy: Wow. Wendy Harmer: Lord. But it's almost… Jean Kittson: I’m jealous. Wendy Harmer: …Yeah. But it's almost like his mission, you know, mission in life. But you know, I'll tell you something though. Oh, have you ever had this Jean, have you ever been jealous of someone else's friendship? Because I remember years ago, I was a big Oprah aficionado. I loved everything that Oprah did. And then she talked all the time about her best friend, Gail King. Jean Kittson: Mm-hmm. Wendy Harmer: And they went on a road trip together and how they talked to each other three or four times a day and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I thought, oh, I wish I had a friendship like Gail and Oprah. So I had to stop reading about their friendship because it just seemed too ideal. But, I'm not sure that they weren't just lying. Jean Kittson: They–– didn't you say that they rang each other three or four times a day? Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Three, three or four times a day. Jean Kittson: I know that seems excessive. Wendy Harmer: It does seem excessive. Jean Kittson: I think it seems like there's some insecurity there even. Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Maybe. Jean Kittson: Maybe, although, you know, we all need friends for different reasons, and we all need them at different times for different reasons. Often friends are the ones that get you through the hardest times in your life and you don't want to burden your family and your partner all the time with your insecurities. Wendy Harmer: See, I wanna say something really important there, which I hate, which is, you know, where people, you know, they make their marriage vows and they say, ‘you are my best friend.’ And I think. I don't want my husband to be my best friend. My husband is my lover, but he's not my best friend. I mean, what do you think of that, Jean? Jean Kittson: Well, in some ways, I suppose, you need to have a friendship with your relationship. Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Yeah. Jean Kittson: It needs to be companionable. You need to trust them to be able to be honest with each other, and that's what friendships are like, and to have sex. You know, if you… Wendy Harmer: Be honest with each other? Are you serious? Jean Kittson: I'm serious. You gotta be honest about your– well, about how you're feeling, I mean, you don't, I mean– of course. I think honesty is really important, although, no, I don't wanna say anything too personal here, but there is a difference, yes. There is a difference between your friendship with your girlfriends, where you can just download and, I mean, do you have a really close male friend, this is the other thing? Wendy Harmer: Oh, yeah, yeah. I've got, actually, probably, I've got more male friends and female friends even. And I love my male friends. When my husband and I got married, I had an ex-boyfriend in my bridal party and he had his– one of his girl, not his girlfriend, but a female friend in his party. So we are very relaxed, you know, about all that. But as I say, you know, yes, I believe in trust, absolutely, in a relationship with your partner. Honesty? Hmm. I'll get back to you. Jean Kittson: Well, I think with really good friends, you can be honest. I often hear people say, oh, these– well, you were talking about a friend who made you feel bad. I'm not talking about that. But I think some friends, you often hear people say, ‘oh, friends should build you up’ or ‘you should always have a positive relationship with them.’ But sometimes friendships go through periods where you are there to support them through really hard times. So, it's not always gonna be someone who makes you feel better about yourself. It's maybe you making them feel better about themselves. Wendy Harmer: But sometimes also as a friend, you've got to say, listen, I think that you might be, you know, on the wrong path here. Or, you know, you've gotta put… Dr Happy: Honesty. Wendy Harmer: …Yeah. You've gotta be diplomatic, haven't you? But some– do you think that a friend, good friend should be able to say, yeah, well, maybe, I don't know whether this is quite the–– how should we go about that? Dr Happy: Oh, for sure. I think, well, if I take my sort of professional hat on and just so to speak personally, because this is something I've learned over the years and, and I haven't really seen much research on it.There's not much talk in the sort of academic community about it. But, I've come to learn, there are different types of friends and so, I have some friends who I can talk honestly about and share my feelings with, even though I'm a bloke and then there are other friends who are fun, but I would never go to them necessarily if I have a problem. And I don't think that necessarily makes them not a good friend. I think it took me a long time to learn there are just different friends who have, kind of almost different purposes for want of a better phrase, including my wife and family as well in that. And so there are some things I will call some people for and other things I'll call other people for and I don’t know if we necessarily give that as much consideration. Wendy Harmer: Is your… Jean Kittson: I think that's really true. Wendy Harmer: …Can I ask, do you think your wife is your best friend? Dr Happy: She is actually at the risk of disagreeing with you! But I don’t know if that's necessarily that common. I have, well, I suppose it depends how you define best, but we are very close friends. We've spent over 30 years now. Jean Kittson: I think you're right about friends for, you know, you don't have friends for all seasons. You have different friends for different seasons in a way. And I– there's friends I would call if I needed a bit of therapy, you know, uplifting, give me a confidence boost. And then there's friends that I would call to just take me out of my world into a whole different world. Wendy Harmer: Yeah… Jean Kittson: …And that's, that's a benefit of having many friends or a few friends. But of course, what you mentioned before, some people are introverts and find friendships more difficult to maybe maintain or they're more exhausting and other extroverts might have a whole lot of friends – like you and Brendan are both extroverts, I would say, Wendy. Dr Happy: Well, so at the risk of disagreeing, that's a bit of a misunderstanding, with introverts and extroverts, so it's not– introverts don't necessarily find friendships difficult. It's just that they don't get their energy from mixing with lots of people a lot of the time. So, they need to have time. They still could have good quality relationships, maybe not as many, but it's just that they'll need to take time out probably a bit more often and spend a bit more time on their own. So it is a bit of a– introverts aren't necessarily loners, or even lonely, for that matter. Jean Kittson: No, that's right. I'm glad you clarified that. I think I'm probably– was talking about sort of at parties and big [events] whereas extroverts get their energy, they find the whole thing… Dr Happy: Yeah. When you were describing your husband's party with 350 people, this is my worst nightmare. I was thinking, my God, I'd be out of there in five minutes. Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Tim, can I ask you, how do we kind of know, how do we know when we are deficient in friendship. Is there any universal standard or is it just every single person will feel that very differently? Dr Happy: That's a really good question. And there's probably multiple answers. Wendy Harmer: Thanks. It's a better question than Jean’s! Jean Kittson: Yeah, wow, I was– you just interview us, Wendy. I would be so happy. Dr Happy: As I say, no, great question. I think everyone is different. So again, we all need, you know, some of us are quite happy with a very small group of intimate friends, other people want the 350, whatever it might be. I guess the real question is to ask yourself honestly, like, how do I feel about my life? Do I feel I have enough, do I feel it's adequate in that context and in other contexts as well? Because there's a difference between being alone and being lonely – [we] kind of almost touched on that before. And again, there some people are perfectly happy, either totally on their own or maybe just one or two people in their lives. Other people need more than that, and it's not– one's not right or wrong or better or worse, it's just, again, we're different. So the question then is, how do you feel and if you are, if you don't feel happy with it… Although what we do need to be careful of, and you kind of touched on this a bit earlier maybe with the Oprah thing, is social comparison. Jean Kittson: Yes. Dr Happy: We do need to be careful looking at, you know, let's say you or your husband saying, ‘oh, she's got lots of friends. I don't have enough so I'm inadequate.’ Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Dr Happy: That's not necessarily the case. Social comparison is problematic and number is one, because as you hinted at, especially on social media, it's not always accurate. Not always truthful. But two, even if it does work for you or Oprah, it doesn't necessarily mean it works for me. Wendy Harmer: Mm-hmm. Dr Happy: So we've all gotta find our own right way, our own balance, I suppose. And again, for some people that will be a bit easier than others. Wendy Harmer: Mm, Jean Kittson: Yes. I suppose as you get older too, there's going to be, there's so many more responsibilities in your life. I know that as a carer, people always say, ‘oh, maintain your own friendships and maintain a social life,’ but it's almost impossible if you are a carer for someone and you're on-call and you have to cancel social engagements, and you find yourself drifting away from friends and moving – you're no longer the inner circle of your friendship group. You're getting further and further out. And I just wonder if that's– if you can repair that, if that couldn't be repaired when you are, you know, you have more time and let fewer responsibilities. Wendy Harmer: Yeah. It feels like, to me, it feels like to me that anyone that you want to have in your life would understand that. And if, if you picked up the phone and said, ‘look I've been caring for, you know, a sick relative or mum and dad or whatever,’ and I find myself now, you know, I don't have that as much responsibility anymore for whatever reason, whether there's been a bereavement or whatever that if you, if that, if you pick up the phone and that person says, welcome back and I've been thinking of you, and they welcome you with open arms, that's the person you want in your life, don't you think? Jean Kittson: Definitely. But I think the distance that can happen over years particularly means that people move on with their friendships and their lives have changed and you can no longer be intimately involved with their lives and it takes a lot to catch up. Wendy Harmer: Yeah, that's true. Jean Kittson: But you really– I think somehow you have to bridge that otherwise you will be lonely. Dr Happy: It's a really good point. As you were saying that I was, again, reflecting on my personal life as opposed to my professional life. And I was thinking, I've always found it difficult, you know, initially, busy starting my career and trying to establish my career, then getting married, having young children, and at that time, not that many of my friends had young children at the same time. So that sort of then, you know– so there was always, and now caring for elderly parents, et cetera. There's always been something that's potentially got in the way, but I am at a stage now where I'm trying to reestablish because I lost – I don't wanna bring this down too much – I lost many years through mental ill health, through quite serious depression, anxiety, and I particularly lost a lot of friendships because I isolated, it wasn't their fault necessarily. So I'm trying to reestablish it. And it's interesting, and this goes to your point, I think, to see how people respond. And some people are welcoming me back with open arms saying, ‘great, we missed you.’ Other people, not so much. And that's fine, I suppose. I guess you do learn when you do make that effort, who the real friends are. Wendy Harmer: One of the things that I'd like to talk about is that it is often women in relationships who are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to friendship. Of course this is very problematic if there is a bereavement, you know, and like my dad. My dad ended up living alone without friends. And I mean, it was very, I mean, he ended up, I think they prescribed him Prozac or some darn thing or whatever, but that happens to a lot of men, doesn't it really? It's something to watch out for, I would've  thought. Dr Happy: Certainly. Yeah, the research is pretty clear. Older men, well, men generally, tend to be not quite as good at fostering and developing those relationships. It tends to become more problematic as they age, and they tend to become more isolated, which is then a high risk factor for a whole range of problems including depression, but also other health problems as well. So yeah, it is a big problem and I think we're starting to see a real explosion as this, as the baby boomers really are hitting that, well are at that age now, I suppose, and even Gen X are getting to that point. Things are changing. So when I– I think my generation was sort of the bit of a turning point and then–– Well, when, if I look at my son, for example, is in his early twenties and how he interacts, and he might not be typical, but the way he relates to particularly his male friends is very different in a good way, I think. Jean Kittson: In a good way. Yeah. Wendy Harmer: I think I agree. Same with my–– how old's your son? Dr Happy: 23. Wendy Harmer: Yeah, mine's 28. I see them very accepting of each other. They don't have to, well, you know, maybe this, our particular sort of… Dr Happy: We might not be typical… Wendy Harmer: But they don't have to put on that macho thing, and they're very, it seems to me they do reach out to a friend who's down. You know, going through a hard time, they seem to be softer. Dr Happy: I think it is changing. So, I mean, I did a podcast series a few years ago on what does it mean to be a man? And the main thing I took, I learned from, I mean, I was meant to be teaching people, I suppose, but the main thing I learned from that is that there isn't one masculinity. There are masculinities. There are multiple ways to quote/unquote be a man. And I think I sort of try and talk a lot about that, particularly young men that, you know, there are different ways to be masculine. There are different ways to show your emotions. There are different ways to be vulnerable. Again, we'll all do that differently, but if we can be more accepting, I think that's really important because, you know, men as a result of all of that, there are significant health and mental health problems, from poor definitions of masculinity. Jean Kittson: Yes, of course. Wendy Harmer: Hey Jean, do you reckon you can make a new friend at our age? Jean Kittson: Well, I was just going to ask you that, in fact, Wendy. I think well, if we take from the men's side, often people of our age and getting older are put into retirement villages or their families say, you know, you go off and sell the family home. And they wanna put us with each other instead of a cross section. And we’re supposed to make friends like we were back at kindergarten and often people are in their 80s and they move into a whole new community. Wendy Harmer: They're quite set in their ways. Of course. Jean Kittson: …yes, of course Not flexible. Jean Kittson: Well, maybe they just have other, different incapacities. Maybe they can't see very well, maybe they can't hear very well, and you're supposed to start new friendships at that stage in life. I think that from my point of view, but I'd rather ask you both this.. Wendy Harmer: …but you've written the books about this… Jean Kittson: Well, I wrote books about being, yes, about caring for our elders and how to make sure they got what they wanted and they had the life they wanted. And not many people wanna leave their community at a late age and try to make new friends, that's for sure. It's very, very difficult. And often it comes with, because of their maybe ill health and they can't– mum had lost her sight for 20 years and mum and dad, both of them couldn't hear very well. So it was harder to make new friends, but they did through groups, like you're saying, how do you make new friends? It's like the Men Shed, or bowling for the vision impaired – which is a very dangerous sport, I must say – but you make new friends by, and we had… and there's, you know, choirs and painting and perhaps joining groups where you're not having to go out for a coffee and sit opposite a stranger and try to, you know, find common ground, that you're doing something else. It's like the friendships, I imagine, it's like those sometimes very intimate friendships you have with people on a train or a bus or a plane that you know you're never going to see again, and then you just share all sorts of things. Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm really pleased to hear that because I mean, it just sounds horrifying to me, the idea of going to an aged care home and being sat around with a whole lot of people and then think, and someone jollying and like, ‘oh, let's all be friends’. I could not think of anything worse. But you're saying that it doesn't have to be like that. Jean Kittson: Oh, there is a lot of community and if you're there for a while, I mean, people often are very– start off not very happy in those sort of places, because they've had illness. And there'll be a lot of people probably listening to this podcast who are struggling with things that are happening in their lives and thinking, well, how do I even have time for friends? But it is really important, even if you've only got one friend, don't you think? Dr Happy: Definitely, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think it is difficult, I think we all acknowledge that, but it is possible. And I think you're right. Joining clubs, societies, community– I mean, I was thinking of my mum who, after mum and dad got divorced and very later became a very passionate bridge player like multiple times a week. And that was her family. It was her second family. It was– dad's been very involved in Rotary. So some of the– you know, there are communities or groups that already exist, you know, woodworking or sporting or the Men's Sheds for example, that's a great way to do it because you're also pursuing, you know, presuming you're pursuing a passion that you enjoy or some sort of hobby, but you're interacting with other people. So that is possible and it's one of probably, the best and easiest way to do it if that's something you want to or need to do. Wendy Harmer: Mm-hmm. I did a little bit of research about this, about resilience in children, and one of the conclusions is that resilience, if a child– a child just needs one adult to make a difference to their resilience. So, and you know, that might not be mum or dad, it could be a friend, could be a relative or whatever, but just that one person, and I'm thinking it's probably the same in old age as well. Dr Happy: Yeah, well I talk a lot about happiness and thriving, flourishing, and as I had said earlier, I talk a lot about positive relationships because it's one of the most important contributors. And I often talk about what I call ‘3:00 AM friends.’ Who would you call at 3:00 AM when the [bleep] hits the fan? – Am I allowed to say that? – When something goes wrong. And well like you said, you really only need one. I mean, if you've got two or three. That's just fantastic. But if you've got one person who you can call when something's gone wrong, that's all you need and that's super important at any age really. Wendy Harmer: Well I’ve got Jean on speed dial. Jean Kittson: Call me at 3:00 AM anytime, Wendy. Oh, that's a very great point. Wendy Harmer: I've never thought of that. That’s a really good point, who would you call? Jean Kittson: Who would you call… Wendy Harmer:…who would you call at 3:00 AM? Well, I know that Jean has been such an extraordinary carer for her mum and dad that I know that she'll have every number of every medical centre, ambulance, where to get drugs… Jean Kittson: But which friend would I call? Dr Happy: Can I get your number? Jean Kittson: And have you got someone you would call after…? Dr Happy: Well, at the risk of upsetting Wendy, my wife. And then well, yeah, I'm pretty lucky to have a good family as well. So, I wouldn't say we are best buddies who speak every day, but I have a brother and sister, and we have pretty good, strong relationships. I think if I needed to, I know either one of them would do whatever they could. I have a father who's still, he's obviously getting– my mother died, but he's elderly and physically sort of isn't able to do much, but he would do whatever he could, obviously. And then, yeah, I do have a small handful of friends who I think if I really needed to and who I have, I suppose in the past, called up when I needed to. Wendy Harmer: I wanna put this, I mean, I really, really must insist here that, I'm talking about in the event that my husband is like, lying next to me dead or something, who am I gonna call? Because he would be the first person… Dr Happy: …well if he's dead there's no point calling anyone! Jean Kittson: It's interesting that, well, sometimes people would prefer, well, what am I trying to say here? Sometimes I feel guilty when I think the first people I would call would be in my family. They're the people I'm closest to, probably, and they're the ones that I– we share everything. Wendy Harmer: Yeah, of course. Jean Kittson: But then psychologically that could be called enmeshment, if I say I'd call my daughters if I, you know, needed something at three in the morning, they'd be the first people that I would. Wendy Harmer: Of course. Jean Kittson: But, I'm not sure whether that's unhealthy or not. Dr Happy: No, not necessarily. Enmeshment is maybe the three times a day sort of thing, but calling – and probably I should have put my kids in that when I was talking about earlier as well – but no, I think calling… One of the greatest myths in our society, I think, and one of the greatest myths and misconception about happiness or life generally, is this myth of independence. And I could bang on about neoliberalism… Wendy Harmer: …No man is an Island, John Donne… Dr Happy: But no, well, I think so much of a sort of quote/unquote Western society is focused on independence and individual responsibility. And that's not to say we shouldn't be responsible. Of course we should, but we are social animals. We're social beings, and there's nothing wrong at all in needing other people and relying on other people. Not every minute of every day for everything. That's problematic. But when something goes wrong, we shouldn't feel bad at all about reaching out and asking for help. Wendy Harmer: But this is also, this is also a product of the kind of society that we live in. I mean, if you look at those intergenerational households… Dr Happy: Mm-hmm. Wendy Harmer: …that you see in so many other cultures, of course everyone's enmeshed and everyone's friends, everyone's arguing, everyone's, you know, it's a whole… Jean Kittson: Ecosystem… Wendy Harmer: …in itself. That's right. And so you've got, living down the street, there's this ecosystem there and this one there and this one there. But, Australia, of course, we have this thing where, oh, you must grow up and move out of home and it's gonna be great for everyone. And I mean, it's not necessarily. Jean Kittson: Well, we're products of the nuclear family, aren't we? Where our… Wendy Harmer: Yeah, we sure are. Jean Kittson: …our parents were, they were aspirational. They wanted to leave the small towns and the… everyone seemed to think a small town was bad when I was growing up. And you had to go to the city and that was where the excitement was and the stimulation was, and that's where people got things done and they were more interesting. And now I think we're realising that small towns and villages… Dr Happy: …green changes… Jean Kittson: …yeah, exactly. They really have so much to offer. And you were talking about young people beforehand, people in villages, you know, now we need mentors for young people and this great organisation, Raise organisation, that puts mentors in schools. And that's another thing you can do if you're older and you wanna connect, you can volunteer to be a mentor for a younger person. A younger person once– you know, we had, when we were in a village, we had mentors, whether we liked it or not. We had companionship because everyone was interested in who we were and what we might contribute to the community. But that's lost. Wendy Harmer: Well, I'm glad you're asking. Yes, I will move in with you. Jean Kittson: Yes. Move in and mentor me, Wendy. Dr Happy: No, I think… I couldn't agree more. I think there's no doubt that big cities do offer something like, you know, employment prospects and entertainment variety and even, you know, cafes and restaurants and blah, blah, blah. But when we're– if you look at the research into, well not happiness at an individual level, but sort of, thriving and flourishing at a sort of higher level, the happiest places to live tend to be those regional centres that are big enough… so for example, in, you know, New South Wales it would be Orange or Newcastle or Wollongong. So they're big enough to have everything you might want, but still small enough to have a sense of connection and community. Wendy Harmer: …Geelong, Ballarat … Dr Happy: Yeah. So every state would have a version of that. And that's what you know, I think during COVID for example, we saw a significant shift to some of those places. Because that's what people were looking for, that connection, that community, and many of those people have stayed there or are continuing to move those spaces. So, I mean, I suppose if you can find that in the big city, great. That's good. That's what we wanna try and do, those of us that do live in big cities, to find that community through clubs, through societies, through whatever, you know, surf club, for example, that's a great example. Whatever it might be. Jean Kittson: That is an excellent piece of advice about finding the connection where you are. So many people reach our age and they decide they want a tree change or a sea change, and they leave their community and then they think their kids will visit, but they're back in the city with their own family earning a living, and then they find they're on their own again, and they've left the people that are really important. Yeah, would you ever move Wendy? Wendy Harmer: Oh yes. Jean Kittson: …but not far… Wendy Harmer: Oh, yes! My husband's a bit of a mollusc and a rock. We lived in, I mean I grew up moving all over the place because dad was a rural school teacher. So, I mean, when we talk about friendships, well, you know, I had to make friends over and over and over again. And so I think that's why I might just have a little bit of neediness there because I always think, oh, you know, that things that you grow up with, I suppose a pathology. I would love to move, but my husband's very content to, you know, where he is. I've got one daughter who lives next door. I mean, I adore that. And then I've got one son who's, you know, he spends a lot of time overseas, so, I've got a bit, you know, I've got a bit of both. Would I move ? Jean Kittson: Well, you could take your friends with you, obviously you would move in the same area, or would you do a really– I mean… I would be worried about community and friendship moving. Wendy Harmer: You have to understand this. Did I say mollusc on a rock? The man is immovable. It's not happening. So, yeah. But, you know, home for me is where I am. You know, I don't– because I grew up in all these different places, I don't really– if you said, Wendy, where's home? I would say, here, Wendy is home. That's where home is for me. So a little bit different. Jean Kittson: And Tim, what about you? Dr Happy: Well, we were chatting before, and we're literally in the process of selling a family home that we've been in for 25 years. But we're probably not going to move very far at all, like a few kilometers. But what we have done, because we're empty nesters now, but we've also bought a block of bush, a couple of hours out of Sydney, where we're gradually spending more and more time. So that's thoroughly enjoyable, immersed in nature. So sort of trying to get the best of both worlds. We have a smaller place in Sydney and a nice retreat. Jean Kittson: That's perfect. That's like the ideal. Wendy Harmer: …best of both worlds. Fantastic. Jean Kittson: My sister and I both married people from New South Wales and then my parents moved from Sorento where they'd been for years and years, had a great network of friends and they moved up to New South Wales to be near my sister and I. We both had young kids. We were both, you know, we needed help, and they moved there. And I went back to Sorento last week, and there were all these people – to do a fundraiser for a hospice – and there were all these people who were friends of mum and dad's. Because they were in business, they had friends that were younger. We didn't touch on this, but friends of different ages, you know, not just your peers. They had friends who were my age who thought of them really fondly and it was really lovely. It was amazing how warmly they spoke of them and how if mum and dad had turned up again after 20 years, they would just fall straight back into that friendship. Wendy Harmer: We get back to that, to the kind of culture that we live in that does not make being close as possible as it should. Jean Kittson: No, we should never have moved away from mum and dad. We should have stayed near them and they moved to be near us. And, I don't think they– they made some good friends, very, very good friends. But the friendships they'd made over their middle years were the closest friends, and long lasting. I mean, after their death, they were still friends with them. In fact, I was saying how I've got this problem because mum and dad's ashes are still in my cupboard, because mum wanted to be scattered at sea and dad wanted to be with mum, but not scattered at sea. So. I'm stuck. Dr Happy: I'm not gonna get involved in that one! Jean Kittson: No, exactly! Wendy Harmer: I've still got a whole lot of dad's ashes, because he moved around Victoria so much, I've got no idea where I should put them. I'd have to do this tour, you know, Cook’s tour and put I bit there, and a bit there, a bit there… Jean Kittson: But what I was gonna say, one of these women who– mum had given her her first job, which I didn't really know her. She has a boat and she said I'll take their ashes out and scatter them for you. Wasn't that nice? Dr Happy: There you go, a generous offer. Jean Kittson: I know… what sort of… that's a pretty good friendship, I would say. Wendy Harmer: Yeah. I'll scatter your ashes after you die. Jean Kittson: Will you? Thank you Wendy. Wendy Harmer: I think I'll do it in the shoe department at David Jones. Jean Kittson: Do it next week…! Wendy Harmer: You'd be quite happy there, wouldn't you? Jean Kittson: That's where you would be. I'll be in the local op shop. Just leave them there. Someone will probably buy them. Would either of you like to say anything more about the importance of friendship because we can wrap up otherwise. Wendy Harmer: I would like to say that I'm still recruiting! Jean Kittson: Yeah. I'll share your number! Wendy Harmer: …So if you'd like to… Jean Kittson: …this is Wendy's number Wendy Harmer: …if you'd like to be my, where's my camera? If you'd like to be my friend, do drop me a line. Look, I am Mrs Have-a-chat. My daughter just says, going down the street with you is a nightmare because I'm like, oh, there's the butcher. I might have a yarn with them. And oh, there's… So, yes. As I say, I'm taking applications. Dr Happy: Oh. Well, I think I probably already made my point, but I just to reiterate, I'd say there are multiple factors that contribute to living a good and happy life, but if I was gonna say the most important thing, I would say fostering and developing good quality relationships. So, make it a priority. It's just as if not more important than anything else you can possibly do. Jean Kittson: Thank you both very much… Wendy Harmer: …And thank you for being my friend all these years. Jean Kittson, an ornament to my life. Jean Kittson: Yeah. I'm a bauble on the Christmas tree of your friendship tower. Wendy Harmer: Indeed. Jean Kittson: Oh no. Well, I'm very proud to be your friend, that's for sure. Thank you both so much. I've learned a lot and I'm gonna ring up some friends now… And thank you for sharing your stories of friendship too. Thanks, Wendy. Thanks, Tim. Wendy Harmer: You're welcome. Thank you, Jean. Dr Happy: Thank you. Jean Kittson: Thanks. Thank you to Wendy Harmer and Dr Tim Sharp. You've been listening to DARE: The time of your life, brought to you by Australian seniors. Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know. Visit seniors.com au slash podcast for more episodes. Thank you. Goodbye. See omnystudio.com/listener (https://omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

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