by Jim Zarkadas
A SaaS product design podcast for non-designers. The Love At First Try Podcast explores how SaaS products become unforgettable. We unpack the idea of taste in product and brand design, deconstruct what makes beautiful products beautiful, and show how to merge growth with delight. If you’re a SaaS founder, CEO, or developer building products people love, this is for you.
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Publishing Since
9/16/2025
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June 5, 2026
<p>Most SaaS founders assume a growth plateau means something is broken with the product or the marketing. Asia Orangio has spent eight years helping over a hundred SaaS companies figure out what is the actual reasons for stalls in growth.</p><p>Asia is the founder of DemandMaven, a growth consulting firm focused on bootstrapped SaaS companies. Her whole approach to growth is holistic, looking at team structure, retention, segmentation, and product together, not one layer at a time.</p><p>In this conversation we get into why growth stalls at predictable moments, why NRR is the metric that actually tells you what's going on, and how to figure out which customer segment is worth doubling down on. </p><p>🧠 What you'll learn in this episode:</p><p>0:00 - Why acquisition is the least efficient growth lever and what to focus on instead<br>1:41 - How Asia began work in holistic growth consulting and why the shift happened<br>6:24 - The three ARR milestones where SaaS growth most commonly stalls<br>7:22 - How Asia diagnoses a growth plateau using pirate metrics, team structure, and processes<br>8:39 - Why the founder is almost always the bottleneck at a million ARR<br>10:06 - Why NRR is the most important metric and what below 80% actually means for your growth<br>14:31 - What team structure looks like at a million ARR versus three to five million<br>16:17 - Why the founder being the bottleneck is a structural problem, not a personal one<br>21:59 - The time tracking company stuck at four million and why their flat org made it nearly impossible to grow<br>24:20 - The clinic management company with four senior marketers and no one actually leading marketing<br>35:57 - Why 12-month churn is scarier than monthly churn and why it should keep you up at night<br>39:23 - How to decide which customer segment to focus on when you have competing options<br>43:12 - The clinic management case study where one segment had three times the NRR of everyone else<br>47:45 - How Ben Chestnut built NRR cohort reports by hand at Mailchimp to find his best customers<br>53:00 - Why not everyone on your team is wired to seek out and use new information<br>1:02:37 - Why Asia is obsessed with Granola and how she uses it with Claude to query her meetings<br>1:05:02 - The Mangomint activation experience and what it teaches about building for your actual audience</p><p>💡 Actionable takeaways from Asia</p><p>Steal these quick wins:</p><p>1. Pull your NRR report right now and look at it by segment</p><p>If you have ProfitWell, you already have an NRR chart. Asia's suggestion is to go look at it today, not next quarter. The number you're looking for is 12-month net revenue retention by customer cohort. If it's below 80% for your primary segment, that's the thing to fix before anything else. </p><p>2. Run a cohort analysis to find your best customer, not your most common one</p><p>Ben Chestnut used to build NRR cohort reports by hand at Mailchimp, flipping through different customer attributes until he found which segments had the strongest retention. That process told him who to focus the whole company on. Asia recommends doing the same: look at which segments have the best NRR, whether the team actually likes working with those customers, and whether you have a compelling enough story to attract more of them. </p><p>3. Treat a growth plateau as a diagnostic problem, not an execution problem</p><p>When Asia comes into a new engagement, the first thing she does is look at baseline pirate metrics, team structure, and how the team operates. The instinct for most founders is to push harder on marketing or ship more features. What she usually finds instead is that either the founder is the bottleneck, the team isn't structured to own the work, or the company is building for the wrong segment. Knowing which of those is true changes everything about what you do next.</p><p>4. Don't restructure your roadmap until you know which segment actually stays</p><p>Asia's story about the clinic management company is worth sitting with. Ninety percent of their customers were solo practitioners, but when she ran the retention analysis, the segment with staff had three times the NRR. Before you decide who to build for, pull the retention numbers by segment. The answer is usually already there.</p><p>5. Look at your 12-month churn number, not just your monthly one</p><p>Asia is direct about this: your monthly churn number might look fine while your 12-month churn is quietly killing growth. The customers who leave at month eight, ten, and twelve are the ones who tried to make the product work and couldn't. That churn shows up in NRR and it compounds. She recommends making 12-month retention a standing metric you review regularly, not something you check when growth slows down.</p>
June 4, 2026
<p>A lot of SaaS teams are adding AI to their stack and hoping it shows up in output. This episode is about what it actually looks like when you build the whole workflow around it and why the thinking behind it matters as much as the tooling.</p><p>Guido Schmitz is the CTO and co-founder of OneTeam, a mobile platform that helps hospitality and retail companies connect, engage, and develop their frontline workforce. They've been building for 11 years and are shipping faster than ever without growing headcount to do it. In this conversation, we get into how they use AI across every department, how they think about product quality and delight in B2B software, and what actually happened when they stopped selling features and started selling outcomes.</p><p>🧠 What you'll learn in this episode:</p><p>0:00 - What Love at First Try is about and who it's for<br>0:55 - How Guido started OneTeam at 19 and what problem they were solving<br>5:24 - Who OneTeam is built for and why the ICP is so specific<br>10:30 - What the employee experience looks like before OneTeam, and why onboarding matters more than most companies think<br>17:10 - The €3,000 cost of losing an employee and why reducing turnover by 1–2% pays for the tool many times over<br>19:23 - The aha moment for new employees: introducing yourself before your first shift and getting welcomed by colleagues<br>21:57 - How OneTeam thinks about empty states, animations, and the small details that make B2B software feel less like a chore<br>25:30 - The growth challenge that comes with building a multi-product platform and how messaging for a broad product is genuinely hard<br>26:11 - How going from feature selling to outcome selling and narrowing the ICP doubled their win rate<br>34:32 - The SaaS apocalypse debate and why vibe coding your way out of a $100/month subscription usually doesn't make financial sense<br>40:55 - How OneTeam adopted Cursor two years ago and why they're seeing roughly 7x the code volume per developer<br>42:16 - How Guido uses Lovable to prototype feature improvements and get real customer feedback in two to three days<br>44:26 - The agentic workforce running in Slack: a marketing agent, product agent, engineering agent, analyst, and sales ops agent — and what each one actually does<br>46:23 - The error-monitoring agent that researches bugs, proposes fixes, runs tests, and opens pull requests for developer review<br>47:22 - The competitor intelligence report that lands every Monday morning — and why it would have taken five or more people before<br>1:01:34 - The mental model behind it all: ask what you'd do with 10x the team, then figure out if you can do it agentically<br>1:05:34 - How AI is changing the design process, and why the idea is now the constraint — not the execution</p><p>💡 Actionable takeaways from Guido</p><p>Steal these quick wins:</p><p>1. Start your agentic setup with one scoped job, not a big rollout</p><p>A good entry point is a single, specific job like a competitor intelligence report that runs every Monday morning. Define what the agent should look at, what it should extract, and where it should drop the output. Build confidence there before you add more.</p><p>2. Give new employees a social introduction before their first shift</p><p>OneTeam built a feature where new hires introduce themselves on the company's social timeline before they even start, and colleagues respond with a high five or a welcome message. It's one of the strongest early signals of belonging you can create, and it costs almost nothing.</p><p>3. Narrow your ICP before you touch your messaging</p><p>If your win rates feel stuck, the problem might not be how you're describing your product. It might be who you're describing it to. OneTeam went from "any company with non-desk employees" to a very specific type of hospitality brand. The messaging got sharper because the audience got sharper. </p><p>4. Flip the question when thinking about AI and headcount</p><p>Instead of asking "what can AI help us with?", ask "what would we do if we had 10x the team?" Then figure out which of those things can be done agentically. OneTeam is processing thousands of prospects a week with an agent that would have needed five or more SDRs before. The constraint isn't capability. It's imagination.</p>
May 29, 2026
<p>A lot of SaaS products ship fast and skip the thinking. This episode is about what happens when you don't, and why that actually matters for growth.</p><p>Bob Baxley spent 35 years designing software at Apple, Yahoo, Pinterest, and ThoughtSpot. Products he worked on have been used by hundreds of millions of people. He's one of those people who has spent a long time thinking carefully about what makes software genuinely good, not just functional, and why so few companies get there.</p><p>In this conversation, we get into how to build a culture where quality is the standard, how to get your whole company to care about design without a single presentation, and how the decisions you make at the conceptual level shape everything downstream.<br> <br>🧠 What you'll learn in this episode:</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew">0:00</a> - Why the tech industry is in a speed race and what that means for product quality</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=457s">7:37</a> - How Bob fell in love with computing at 11 years old and why that shaped everything after</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=751s">12:31</a> - Why timing matters as much as talent when it comes to what you can build</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=838s">13:58</a> - How economic pressure from VCs is changing the pace of design work inside companies</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=1476s">24:36</a> - The real difference between sales-led and product-led companies, and why it never changes after founding</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=1625s">27:05</a> - Why design teams have hurt themselves by hiding their process from the rest of the company</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=1800s">30:00</a> - How Bob's team ran an internal influence campaign at ThoughtSpot using weekly Loom videos</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=2149s">35:49</a> - What a head of design actually does on a sales call and why it worked</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=2262s">37:42</a> - Design tenets vs. design principles, and which one actually helps teams make decisions</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=2550s">42:30</a> - What choreography over control looks like in practice for a design leader</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=2871s">47:51</a> - The difference between micromanagement and being in the details, and why it matters</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=3295s">54:55</a> - How to think about quality within constraints instead of chasing world class as a target</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=3646s">1:00:46</a> - Why taste is hard to compete on, and which layer of the market you actually need to nail first</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=3675s">1:01:15</a> - A simple exercise to raise the taste level of your engineering team</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=3968s">1:06:08</a> - The three stages every market goes through before design becomes a competitive advantage</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=4356s">1:12:36</a> - What it really means to design for the person on the other side of the glass</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=4617s">1:16:57</a> - Why user research needs to be a ritual, not a one-time sprint</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=4844s">1:20:44</a> - The Post-it note observation that turned into a multi-billion dollar company</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in95y6B0Pew&t=5069s">1:24:29</a> - Bob's favorite apps and what they got right at the conceptual model level</p><p>💡 Actionable takeaways from Bob</p><p>Steal these quick wins:</p><p>1. Run the "three favorite apps" exercise with your team</p><p>Ask everyone to name their three favorite apps .Not the ones they use most, their actual favorites. Getting your team to sit with that question starts a real conversation about what quality actually means versus what just has good distribution. </p><p>2. Show the work before it's done</p><p>Bob's team at ThoughtSpot made a 22-minute Loom video every week for 35 weeks, showing projects at every stage and sent it to the whole company. It shifted how every department understood and valued design work, without a single big presentation or formal pitch. If your team feels invisible inside the company, this is a low-cost way to change that.</p><p>3. Replace your design principles with tenets</p><p>Principles like "be clear" or "feel responsive" don't help anyone make a decision because nobody argues the opposite. A tenet is a hard-edged statement your team agrees on once so they stop relitigating the same debate. </p><p>4. Go watch your users outside the context of your product</p><p>When Bob was asked about ZenMaid, his recommendation was to visit cleaning business owners and understand how they think and run their business, not just how they use the software. Watching how someone actually works, before you introduce your product into the conversation, gives you better ideas than any feature interview.</p><p>5. Ask an LLM you've been using regularly: "What outdated mindset am I holding onto that's no longer serving me?"</p><p>The answer Bob got shifted how he thought about control and leadership. His suggestion is to run it with an LLM that has enough context on you to give a real answer, not a generic one.</p>
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A SaaS product design podcast for non-designers. The Love At First Try Podcast explores how SaaS products become unforgettable.
We unpack the idea of taste in product and brand design, deconstruct what makes beautiful products beautiful, and show how to merge growth with delight.
If you’re a SaaS founder, CEO, or developer building products people love, this is for you.
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