Manager Minute-brought to you by the VR Technical Assistance Center for Quality Management

About Manager Minute-brought to you by the VR Technical Assistance Center for Quality Management

ONE CENTER. ONE TEAM. ONE MISSION.

Publisher

VRTAC Team

Category

business · business

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

10 May 2021

Latest episode

30 Sept 2026

Latest episodes

66 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   30 Sept 2026

   VRTAC Manager Minute: The Employer Ripple Effect: How One Success Opens the Next Door

   What happens when a successful employer partnership becomes the start of something much bigger? In this episode of Manager Minute, Carol Pankow talks with Paul DiBello, Director of Business Services at Missouri Vocational Rehabilitation, about Missouri's Nexus network. What began with one collaborative group has grown to approximately 18 groups connecting VR, workforce and community partners, and businesses across the state. Paul shares how regular meetings, employer involvement, "Nexus Mission Moments," and a one-team approach have helped sustain the work—and why employers who experience success often become VR's most powerful ambassadors. During National Disability Employment Awareness Month, this episode celebrates the partnerships and practices that create meaningful employment opportunities and keep opening doors for people with disabilities. Listen Here Full Transcript {Music} Paul: The Nexus, it's really a collaboration of community partners and local businesses. We started, like I said, with one, and I think we're up to 18 different groups now. Once you have that one success story with a candidate and business, it can really snowball into that business sharing nexus with other businesses. We've seen that where they call their friends at other businesses and say, hey, you've got to check this out. These folks have a talented pool of candidates or you can learn about resources. I have to say, word of mouth is still a great marketing tool in this business. Carol: That's good stuff. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Paul DiBello, Director of Business Services at Missouri Vocational Rehabilitation. How are things going in Missouri, Paul? Paul: Things are going great, Carol. Thanks for asking. Carol: Awesome. Good to have you. Well, October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month, and this conversation offers a wonderful opportunity to recognize not only the contributions of workers with disabilities, but also the partnerships and practices that help create meaningful employment opportunities. And what makes today's story really interesting is that it began nearly a decade ago, back in 2017. Missouri VR shared with our old WINTAC grant how the agency was collaborating with workforce partners and employers to strengthen business engagement across the state. And so nine years later, my colleague Doug Keast circled back to see what happened, and he freaked out. He's like, Carol, you have got to call Paul. He's got to be on a podcast. And Doug had found that it wasn't simply that the work had continued, but it had expanded, it matured. It was even more deeply embedded in your system. And so today, Paul is joining to talk about how that collaboration grew and what helped to sustain it, and what the rest of you listeners can learn from this. So let's dig in. So, Paul, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you came into the VR world? Paul: Sure. It's kind of a little bit of a curvy road for me, to be honest. My undergrad degree was in music education, and actually I was a high school band director for a couple of years, then followed my new wife out to Virginia. She got a job in her field, and we lived out there for a while, and I somehow got into accounting. So I went back to   school and got an accounting degree and worked for a couple of fortune 500 companies out there over the course of about eight years, and then three kids and a dog and a cat later, we decided we lived too far from family. So we moved back to Missouri, closer to family and I ended up getting a job with the job center, actually with our WIOA title one Youth folks. So I started there and really fell in love with the work. I started there as a Youth Job developer in the Job Center, and then later became an assistant Youth Program Coordinator for all of our youth services within the 19 counties in central Missouri, under the Workforce Board there. And it was kind of it was at that time that I really started to get to know a little bit about VR services. I have to give a shout out to my good friend and Missouri VR coordinator programs doctor Elizabeth Perkins. I partnered with her back then. She was actually a VR counselor, and she would come into the job centers and work a day or two there, take customers there. So we got to know each other real well. I learned more about VR. We started to partner on some things and it really opened, kind of opened my eyes to how awesome VR is. I'm just going to say it's different and I love all of our Workforce partners, but there's something special about VR counselors. So anyway, kind of fell in love with it then, but again, kind of a curvy path. My next stop, I worked as an EO officer for the central region. So I actually worked directly for the workforce board. And there I got to work on our state's non-discrimination plan and got to do some disability projects and stuff with partners. So a little bit closer to VR there. And then I was recruited as a actually a statewide job center provider for one of our WIOA program providers who also was a community rehabilitation provider. So even a little closer to VR, because I got to work on some contract management, and I was actually the assistant director of workforce programs for that company. So got to see both sides, the job center side and the CRP side. And then finally, in July of 2019, there was a VR job became open. And Elizabeth kind of encouraged me to apply for it. It was actually in procurement. So I started, then got to move into some case management stuff and then round about all the way back to business services where I started with WIOA. So that's where I am now. Carol: Holy smokes, you did take a long and winding road with a stop off with an accounting degree. Like where did that come out of the blue? Paul: Really weird. Carol: I love it. We're gonna have to bring you over to our fiscal management community of practice. Paul: Ok, that sounds fun. Carol: Yeah. You're like, no, I got out of that. I don't want to do that. That's awesome. So I know you weren't in Missouri in 2017, actually at the VR agency, but you were doing things out and about. So what was Missouri trying to accomplish back then? If you could like, put on that view from way back through that collaborative business engagement? Paul: Yeah. And I do remember even I wasn't with VR. I do remember how things were starting to come together back then. It was really just building partnership with WIOA partners. And it was through the development of a really a state level workforce system business committee, I guess you would call it didn't really have a formal name back then, but VR helped kind of host events with WIOA partners. And that's also where I got to know VR a little better, too, through some of that, to survey businesses together kind of as a team. And this eventually developed one of the very first lasting collaborative business and community engagement Nexus groups. And I think we're going to talk about Nexus here soon, but that was in the Kansas City area, and it consisted of monthly meetings that kind of brought community partners together with businesses to expand employment opportunities. And this would be for individuals with any barriers to employment. So it wasn't just focused on disabilities, but that was part of it. It was a great way to get all that collaboration with all of our state agency and partners. And then we really realized like, just so, you know, like the word nexus, we realized we wanted a system that was defined really by the very definition of the word nexus. And according to Merriam-Webster, nexus is a connection link or tie between people or things. It can also mean a central hub, or the core place where multiple parts of a system meet and come together. So that's really what we wanted for our state workforce system, just to have some really solid partnerships and where we were working together as a team. So that's kind of what was going on then. Carol: I love that. So nine years later, you look at, okay, what's changed the most for you guys? Paul: I would have to say, first of all, for VR, we've expanded our business team from, I think it was about three members. I'm not I wasn't there yet, but we have expanded to seven, which is huge for us. It gives us the ability to really get out across every region of the state and our VR business services team. It's really gained more clarity in our responsibility in terms of providing that menu of individualized and relevant services to meet those dual customer needs. So in essence, I think above all else, we've focused on being strategic connectors between VR, the workforce system, businesses, and then ultimately our dual customer, our clients as well. Carol: I know talking to Doug, he said, in talking to other people, like you guys have been able to sustain and move this stuff along. Like you not only started it, but you've made this even better. That is not the case everywhere there have been starts and stops, and it almost seems like with WIOA, you know, people went in great gangbusters and then it kind of petered out in some places. But you've been able to really sustain and strengthen the work over time. What helped you guys to be able to do that? Paul: Some of it was, I guess, probably trial and error, but definitely just continued development and expansion of these partnerships. Our blind agency Rehabilitation services for the blind. Our sister agency was a huge part of that too. And then really just working with the local Workforce boards and the Job Center staff, I know that it helps, you know, with our infrastructure agreements with the Workforce boards and making sure that because, you know, I don't always think of Missouri as I know some states are more of a one stop where people are actually under the same roof. We are not that, but we really do try to partner very closely. And those infrastructure agreements with Workforce really helped make sure there was a place for our counselors and our business folks to be under the same roof some days of the week and things like that. So I think that helped strengthen just partnerships in general. And then our employment Nexus groups, as they started to grow, just played a huge role in maintaining the partnerships. In a way, having these regularly monthly collaboration meetings have kind of built a mechanism for continued contact and communication. So I don't want to say it's forced, but it's there every month. Like we have these meetings every month and we're going to see these folks. And so we might as well work together. And it's just taken off in a really good way. Carol: Well, since you keep bringing up Nexus, we might as well talk about that next. Paul: Okay. Carol: How does that Nexus model really work at the local level? Paul: Nexus, it's really a collaboration of community partners and local businesses. We started, like I said, with one, and I think we're up to 18 different groups now. So we are very close to having all 114 counties in Missouri covered by at least one Nexus group, which I think is outstanding. And that's been our goal for the last few years to just really expand it and give opportunities for everyone in every county. Basically, there's a statewide planning committee, which is basically all of the local Nexus group planning committees, and we have a quarterly call and meeting. But as far as the local meetings go, there's a small planning committee and then there's a monthly meeting schedule and it's always it's the same time, same day every month. A typical agenda. It's open to all. We really try to invite an employer or a partner to do somewhat of a formal presentation, you know, on what they have to offer. And then there's usually an open forum where people can ask questions, and then we invite as many businesses as we can to join as well. And then there'll be time for networking and also time for those businesses to report out and tell us what they need. What are they seeing on the ground? What kind of candidates are they looking for? What kind of problems are they having that we might be able to solve? And then a real big part of those meetings are what we call Nexus Mission Moments. We actually establish a time toward the end of the meeting where people can kind of report out, like how Nexus has helped them. And it could just be a connection, it could be a connection to a candidate or maybe an existing employer with its existing employees that found out about a program that can help their employees. And those are the best. Because when you have a new partner or a new employer on the call or in the room, they hear that. And then it's kind of like, okay, what's in it for me? Well, that might be in it for me. So all of those things together have really that makes up what a Nexus meeting is. And we've just been able to, to keep the movement going. And every month we do them. So it's good. Carol: Well, I'm sure that your states, like other states where you have different sectors and different regions, like every state is different. You know, you have different parts that maybe there's more manufacturing or you might have more other kind of agricultural industry or whatever's going on depending on the quadrant of the state. And so I'm just thinking about those employer needs that are in those different areas. How do those employers in those specific regions really help shape the work of the Nexus team? Are they intricately involved? I know you've alluded to some of this, but is there something really direct that they do? Paul: Yeah. well, I can say in a few of our groups They are on the planning committees, which is great. Mercy Health and Saint Louis is a huge partner with VR and they're a great inclusive hiring partner. But yeah, they're actually on the planning committees and bring other employers with them. So that's good. And then as far as the regions, yeah, sometimes we can specialize a little bit if we're in a more rural area or an area where there's a lot of manufacturing, then we're going to be able to bring those employers into the fold and show them that, you know, we do have a talented pool of candidates that can help them. Yeah. Carol: I like it, I like it. So how is this collaboration expanded opportunities for people with disabilities? Paul: Well, I think it's created great partnerships with employers first of all. And we at VR, we might have otherwise overlooked some of those employers, to be honest, that show up for these meetings. We also at the same time, we're connecting our agency to other area partners that have complementary services, which can also help our clients. We've been able to set up company tours for entire Nexus groups, which has been awesome. You know, a company will actually invite the whole Nexus group to. Maybe we might even meet on their campus, get a tour. Learn more about a business. That way we can come back to our vocational rehabilitation counselors and clients and tell them about that. And then in some cases, we've learned about like new resources available by some local area community agencies, like community action agencies and things like that that can directly also help our clients. Nexus groups, they've partnered together to hold reverse job fairs and other events. So that's becoming a kind of a big thing. And we call them talent showcases in Missouri. But probably most importantly, I think VR has had the opportunity to educate our partners and employers just on the advantages of hiring from a talent pool of qualified individuals with disabilities. It's just a bigger audience. So it's been great. Carol: So what kind of results or changes tell you that this approach is working for you. Paul: I think anecdotally, repeat business customers as well as new business customers in attendance at our Nexus meetings in general, to me, is a huge indicator that we've made progress with relationships and partnerships. The ability to have a single point of contact within Nexus also is really big. If that works best for an employer and they've requested that we can do that within a Nexus group itself, so business can come to a Nexus meeting and basically learn all the ways our wioa partners can serve them, you know, at one meeting sometimes. Most importantly, I think we've gained access to businesses that we know are interested in our candidate pools because they return. And I can say beyond anecdotally, our employer services have increased, you know, that we would record as a direct result of attending Nexus groups and making these newfound partnerships. And I can also say, once you have that one success story with a candidate and business, it can really snowball into that business sharing nexus with other businesses. We've seen that where they call their friends at other businesses and say, hey, you've got to check this out. These folks have a talented pool of candidates, or you can learn about resources, all the things. So I have to say, word of mouth is still a great marketing tool in this business. Carol: That's good stuff. So what advice would you give another VR agency that would like to build this kind of network? I know folks have struggled like there's been this starts and stops or they're all in and then it all like kind of peters out. What advice do you have for folks? Paul: I think really building a solid foundation with your community partners and other agencies is paramount. If you start a group like Nexus or that kind of a working group with some of our Nexus groups, we had more than one initial planning meeting for networking and just to really get to know our agency partners and how they serve customers and just really get to know each other intimately before we even invite businesses to the meetings. I just think it really helps to start with like a genuine partnership where you leave like any territorial issues at the door, so to speak, and just present the group as a united team that's just simply there to serve the needs of employers without worrying about who gets the credit. It just needs it really needs to be a one team approach. And that's what's I think worked for us and kept employers coming back. I think they do recognize that. Carol: I like it. Well, and it feels like to Missouri's Workforce system is really cohesive, you know, and I'm sure looking at the role that you all are playing as part of that big network. What do you think that looks like today, maybe compared to before? Like, as you've grown this over the years, that leadership role that Missouri's taken in the Workforce system? Paul: Hmm. I think, uh, are you saying Missouri or VR? Carol: I'm talking about Missouri VR within the bigger Workforce system. Because I know you all seem to drive a lot of things that are going on down there. Paul: Yeah, I think just the growth of our Nexus groups in particular, VR can take some credit for that, for sure. And that was part of that was expanding our business services team. But we've really, really made that a priority for ourselves and our partners. Carol: And I'm sure Chris Claus, your director, who is like amazingly astute and thoughtful and loves partnering, has been a big champion for all the work that you're doing. Paul: He has been a huge champion for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Carol: Well, as we recognize National Disability Employment Awareness Month, what do you hope employers and workforce professionals take away from Missouri story? Paul: I will say for us, partnership has been just the key to success in Missouri. Don't take your WIOA and other community partners for granted. Together as a team, honestly, we've learned so much from each other and once our partners understand the way we can help our clients with disabilities and get to share in some of the successes, they really only want to contribute more. And I think that goes for our partners and our employer, partners and businesses. Carol: Good stuff. Paul, Missouri story reminds us that meaningful disability employment, it's not created through just one event, one program, or one agency working alone. It really grows through those relationships that are built locally, supported statewide and sustained over time. And you all have done a bang up job. I really appreciate having you on today. Thanks so much. Paul: Thank you. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

2. 

   1 Sept 2026

   VRTAC Manager Minute: Who's Next? Moving Beyond Vacancies to Build the VR Workforce

   VR doesn't just have a vacancy problem. It has a pipeline problem. What if the answer to VR's workforce shortage isn't simply filling the next vacancy? Across the country, VR agencies are competing for talent, losing experienced staff, and trying to prepare a new generation of professionals—many of whom may not even know that VR is a career option. In this episode of the Manager Minute, George Michna of Connecticut and Mario Lucero of New Mexico join Carol Pankow to talk about a different approach: intentionally building the VR workforce pipeline. Drawing from their National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute (NRLI) project, George and Mario explore how career pathways, mentorship, apprenticeships, stronger onboarding, and leadership development can help agencies move from reacting to vacancies to developing talent for the long term. They also tackle an equally important question: once we bring talented people into VR, what makes them want to stay? If your agency is thinking about recruitment, retention, succession planning, or developing its next generation of leaders, this conversation is worth a listen. Listen Here Full Transcript {Music} George: One of the biggest values of NRLI was the opportunity to step outside of your day to day work and to engage with colleagues, people who eventually become good friends of yours that live across the country, who are dealing with many of the same challenges. Mario: We've really invested hard in our leadership team, and we're seeing the results of that now. We got out of a cap. We're really making positive progress towards meeting our performance metrics. We have a way better understanding of our data, and now we're really focusing on leadership and culture within our agency. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today are George Michna, Bureau Chief for Community Living from Connecticut Bureau of Rehabilitation Services, and Mario Lucero, Field Operations Director for New Mexico General. So, George, how's it going in Connecticut? George: It's going good. Actually, the weather's finally holding it up here, so it's kind of nice to finally enjoy. Hopefully, a really nice summer. Carol: Yeah, that is awesome. I know we've all been talking a lot about the weather in Minnesota. It's hot and sultry. It was 95 yesterday so you never think of that here. And Mario was so great to have you here as well. How are things on your end in New Mexico? Mario: Thanks for having me, Carol. We're doing good here in New Mexico. Had a little bit of rain the last two weeks, which is really welcomed because we have been so dry and we have problems with forest fires here in New Mexico. So any rain that we get is welcome. So we're doing well. Carol: Well, I never think of New Mexico and forest fires. I'm sorry Mario, I just think of you as being more deserty. But I know you have trees. I know you have... Mario: We do. Carol: So today we're going to talk about a topic that's coming up across the country and it's the workforce challenges in vocational rehabilitation. And George and Mario, part of a cohort from the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute, or NRLI, which is a leadership program that brings together emerging leaders from across the VR system to take on some of the field's biggest challenges. And as part of that experience, their group developed a project focused on career pathways as a strategy for recruitment and retention in VR. And we're going to unpack what they found and why it matters right now. So let's dig in. So let's start with each of you. How did you get into VR and what has kept you in this work? And Mario, I'm going to go to you first. Mario: Thanks, Carol. Well, for me, vocational rehabilitation is always aligned with who I am personally and professionally. I've spent my life around ministry, teaching, and helping professions. My father was both a minister and a teacher, and I think that shaped how I view people and purpose. I also live with significant physical disabilities myself, so I understand firsthand the importance of opportunity, independence, dignity, and meaningful work. VR gave me the opportunity to turn that into a lived experience and into a career where I could help others overcome barriers and pursue employment goals they may have once thought were impossible. What's kept me in this work is honestly the mission. We're not just processing cases or authorizing services. We're helping people build lives, support families, and regain confidence in themselves. You get to see real transformation in people's lives, and that's hard to walk away from once you've experienced it. Carol: I love that, Mario, Thanks for sharing that. George, how about you? George: So my pathway into vocational rehabilitation started in education. I was a special education teacher, later taught pre-service teachers. It was also a school administrator and then worked for the Connecticut State Department of Education. A lot of it has just been through those roles is that one thing that became clear that we put a lot of effort into supporting students while they're in school, but there's a disconnect. when it came to what happened after they exited school. So students would graduate, but the transition to employment or post-secondary pathways was not always strong or consistent. And I think that's really what drew me into vocational rehabilitation. It's one of the few systems that is specifically designed to bridge that gap between education and employment. And I think that what's really kept me here is both the impact and the work that we do. You see real outcomes when someone moves into employment and independence. And in my current role, I'm focused on kind of how those systems connect, both on the employment side and within community living, as well as education through a grant that we're running. So that's really kind of what's kept me engaged in the work, and just having those meaningful conversations with individuals about finding success in their lives. Carol: Yeah, I had no idea about you. George: Yeah. Carol: Being an educator, that is very cool. It's always fun to see people's stories and how they get into this sort of a career. Appreciate that. So I know you both participated in NRLI, and I just wondered if you could tell our listeners a little bit about what that experience was like. And how did that shape your thinking as a leader? And George, I'll tag you first on that. George: First and foremost. NRLI gave me the opportunity to step outside of my state and look at vocational rehabilitation from more of a national perspective. We were teamed with about, I think, 30 individuals or so as our cohort, and they represented both VR, general VR Blind and also combined agencies. And so you really get a mix of perspectives from individuals. And I think that's really powerful. And the other thing was, is that what really started finding, for example, was, is that, you know, you start looking at issues with your workforce, challenges that you might have, bringing in counselors and the like, and you start finding out that others are facing similar challenges. So you're able to have these kind of sidebar conversations throughout the time that you spent together. And you really get to learn from individuals about what other states are doing and how to kind of effectively problem solve. Mario: And NRLI was an incredible experience because it forced us to step back and think beyond just our own state systems and day to day operations. You're sitting in a room with leaders from all over the country who are dealing with many of the same challenges, but often approaching them in different ways. For me personally, it challenged me to think more strategically and systemically as a leader, instead of only asking, how do we solve today's problem? It pushed me to ask, how do we build sustainable systems for the future? One of the biggest takeaways for me was realizing that many of our workforce challenges in VR are not isolated problems, they're national trends. That realization helped reinforce the importance of collaboration, innovation and leadership development across the entire VR system. Carol: Well, I think we're definitely better together. NRLI, I love that bringing that sense of community because you can feel very isolated, you know, in your individual states and your agencies, and you learn how to do things a certain way. So you guys bring up a good point. You know, you hear other people with the same challenges, but they've tackled them differently. And so I love that kind of that transplanting of ideas that happens naturally through that cohort model. And you get, you know, you're with your group a whole year and you really get to know people. And I think that transplanting of ideas and that building that network that you can rely on later, because I'm sure you probably each have like email groups and all of that good stuff or chat groups with your folks from NRLI that you can just like, hey, we have this going on. What do you know about this? Or what are you guys doing? I think there's a lot of value in that. So I know as part of NRLI, your group focused on workforce and career pathways. How did you guys come up with that as your project? George: Well, I gotta say this, it wasn't a project that we landed on right away. The way NRLI is structured, we do have multiple weeks that we meet across the year, and we also had opportunities to connect virtually to work through how the paper would shape out. Really, in the beginning, it was a lot of brainstorming where we were sitting, you know, outside by the pool on a break. And I still remember this to this day. And we went around the group just kind of mentioning some of the hot topics that we had and what were we thinking about. And really kind of what we started coming back to was the same issue was kind of a staffing piece. And I think that's kind of where we ended up thinking about the staffing and then kind of what solutions could we bring from our various states to address that? And I guess from a point of view, it was kind of a self-discovery process of the group in realizing what to write about. Carol: Very cool. I love that organic. I know. Other groups too. They said they struggled like they might have come up with a particular topic. And then they were like, hey, we don't want to do that anymore. And they kind of move through the year and got exposed to different things. Other ideas came forward and they pivoted to something else. George: I would say that was exactly the same experience that we had, and almost feeling at some point that we had to figure out something because time was running out. Mario: I still remember that first day that you said when we sat around the pool and we were just brainstorming and we threw out like 50 million ideas. I think how we finally settled on career pathways and recruitment and retention was that we saw that this was a problem that we could realistically solve. We didn't want to bite off too much that we couldn't chew. And so we thought that maybe this was something that we could have an actual impact on. Carol: So Mario, a little more about that. You know, it's a problem you were trying to solve. Why do you think this is so important right now. Like what's going on? Give it kind of the picture of what's happening out there. Mario: Well, you know, Carol, the biggest problem we identified was that vocational rehabilitation is facing a workforce pipeline issue at a time when demand for services continues to grow. Across the country agencies are struggling with vacancies, burnout, retirements and turnover. At the same time, fewer people are entering the field intentionally because many people simply don't know that VR exists as a career pathway that creates a long term sustainability problem for the public VR system. What made this especially important to us is that workforce shortages don't just affect agencies internally, they directly impact the participants that we serve. Vacancies can lead to delayed services, increased caseload sizes, and less capacity for innovation and individualized support. So our group started asking instead of only reacting to vacancies after they happened, how do we intentionally build built pathways that introduce people to VR earlier. Developing future talent and creating opportunities for long term career growth within agencies that shift from reacting to shortages to proactively developing talent really became the foundation of our project and our paper. Carol: Nice. So what are you guys seeing right now across the states in terms of the staffing shortages and turnover? I just wondered if there's been any kind of movement where it's getting a little bit better. I just, what did you find out. George: When we looked at the work, kind of to build out the paper, we were seeing kind of a consistent piece where I think states were kind of dealing with this combination of persistent vacancies and high turnover, and that some states are, you know, obviously making a little bit of better progress in that. I think, you know, going back to looking at with Connecticut, I came to our agency on the heels of the Covid 19 pandemic. If you think about it, about five years ago, I was coming out of that rebounding. From that, we saw individuals with disabilities wanting to get back into employment. So you had this influx of people requesting services, but what you saw on the staffing side from the agency was, is that we had a lot of staff that either retired early or had kind of exited the employment of the agency. And so we were in the process of trying to refill those positions as we could. And we've done a really good job at that. But the implication of that is, is that we now shifted the agency from a mid to late career group of counselors to a workforce that's now more heavily weighted towards early mid-career staff. And that has implications for us because newer counselors often require smaller caseloads and more support to kind of ensure the quality services, as well as trying to ensure how do we prevent burnout among those staff as well? Also, what's happening is, is that we're seeing an added strain on our community rehabilitation providers in the state, and we see them as a critical part of the service delivery system. And so this now speaks to kind of the broader system that how can it then support individuals in achieving career goals? So that's kind of the perspective here in Connecticut. Carol: Here you bring up a really good point, George, you know I hadn't thought about that with the newer counselors coming in. I guess just the way you had stated it and having people earlier in their career, you are shaping then you have in a smaller caseload, which impacts then your overall capacity for serving folks. So when you have a big bulk of people in that early part, even though you have the same number of people, they can't produce the same amount of work. George: Exactly. Carol: Yeah, you always need exponentially more folks to carry that out. And it takes a while. This system is hard, like to learn and understand and really feel like you're getting good and proficient at it. So we've kind of lost those later career counselors that were also serving as mentors and such. And I know in some states people are saying like, hey, we've got a whole new group. You've got 90% of your people have been there five years or less. You don't have that other group that can help to support them. George: You know, it kind of then impacts your ability for supervisors to effectively mentor those staff because the added impact on them as well. So the entire system starts feeling that strain. Carol: Yeah, it's really a ripple effect for sure. So I know you guys have mentioned before that people don't always choose VR as a career. So why does that matter for recruitment? Mario: It matters because many of us in VR didn't grow up saying, I want to work in VR someday. Most people find this field accidentally through counseling programs, disability services, workforce programs, social work, education, or even personal life experiences such as myself. The challenge with that is that people don't know the profession exists. They're never going to intentionally pursue it. Other helping professions like teaching, nursing or social work. They have clear career pathways and pipelines and stronger public awareness. VR doesn't have that. So VR agencies are competing for talent in a field that many potential candidates never even heard of. That's why career pathways and apprenticeship models are so important. They create exposure. They allow students, paraprofessionals, community partners, and individuals with lived disability experience to see VR as a meaningful career option before they're already established somewhere else. I think the field has a huge opportunity here, especially because VR work is incredibly mission driven, that once people understand what we actually do and the impact we have, they'll be drawn to it, and the challenge is getting them exposed to it early enough. Carol: Well it does really fit with our new administration. I mean, maybe not so new with our president now he's, you know, in his year two, but very big emphasis on apprenticeships and career pathways. And so it lines up with the administration's thinking on that as well. George, I know you've had a little touch with this. What would it look like, kind of the career pathway and apprenticeship model in a VR agency. George: in Connecticut, we're starting to put together a formalized kind of mentorship program, if you will, where we're bringing in staff within our community, rehabilitation providers, where we can then provide a structured mentorship for them to kind of upskill their knowledge of working within kind of the VR space. The hope there is, is that they can gain experience in the areas like eligibility, plan development, employer engagement, and being able to kind of have that mentorship and feedback that's built into the process. And so our hope really is, is that kind of, you know, if you think about this as about opening the door wider at the front end, so that way we can become more intentional about how we develop staff once they're within our agency or within a provider. Again, this isn't about just simply filling positions. It's more about creating a pathway where someone can enter the field, develop the necessary skills over time, and see a future in the work. And I just want to say, you know, to your question before, if I can, I'm kind of a perfect example here because coming in from education, right? At no point in my kind of career trajectory was vocational rehabilitation presented as kind of a viable option for what I was doing. But an interesting note here is, is that within our NRLI cohort, and I was thinking about this, you know, in kind of getting ready for this podcast, there was at least three other individuals who started in special education and eventually ended up in VR. So I think there's something powerful there in terms of how we think about where we can draw upon individuals to help do the work that we're doing. Carol: Absolutely. There definitely is a natural alignment there. I know back in the day, even in Minnesota, there was a while where school districts were laying off school counselors because they didn't have the funds. And we found that the school counselors had such a interesting background in the training they had that was super transferable over into VR because they're helping students think about employment goals. You know, think about all of that and then that group of people and you're like, why didn't we think of this before and had some really lovely staff come in from that background. I love that. Yeah, it's smart to think about what we align with. Now, I know in NRLI, the fourth week is always the DC week and that can be super impactful. You get to meet the, you know, agency kind of heads from all different, you guys were at Labor and Department of Ed with the Rehab Services Administration. Did you guys have an opportunity at all to share your work and get any sort of feedback from the feds about what you were working on here with this paper? Mario: Yeah, we did. We had the opportunity to discuss our project and our paper and engage with leaders and stakeholders who are thinking about these same workforce challenges. One of the encouraging things was that the feedback we got really validated that this issue is being felt across the country. People recognize that recruitment and retention challenges are not just temporary, they're systemic issues that require long term strategies. And there was strong interest in the idea of developing intentional career pathways and apprenticeship style models because they create a more sustainable workforce pipeline instead of relying solely on traditional recruitment methods. I also think people appreciate that our approach focused not just on filling vacancies, but on developing leaders, increasing retention and creating growth opportunities within the VR agencies. That's important because recruitment and retention really go hand in hand. Bringing people in is only half the battle. You also have to create environments where people want to stay and grow, right? Carol: Yeah. Excellent point Mario, because if you bring people in and they don't stay, you just have a churn that's not going to help anything. You've got to create that inviting, welcoming, wonderful environment that people can learn and grow. Because that's what lots of our, you know, our young people coming in, they aren't coming to the state to just work for 40 years like maybe their parents had or someone else. They want a job they can grow into. Mario: And to add to that, Carol, I've been in the field of VR for almost 19 years now. I can remember going back to the early 2000, when a lot of the people in VR had a master's in VR, and there were plenty of people within the field offices to mentor new counselors coming in. But ever since the mid 20 tens, you know, WIOA came out, that's really dwindled. And we have people with less and less experience and really nobody to mentor. And as George mentioned, really heavily, depending on the program managers to be those mentors and trainers, It's just too hard because they're also having to drop below their 3000-foot level, down to the 1500 zero foot level to take on case load work, you know? Carol: Right. Mario: And he's not able to provide that mentorship as well as we maybe once did in VR in previous generations. Carol: Yeah, we got to look at this in a whole different way. So speaking of looking at this, looking ahead, what's one change you guys hope to see in the VR workforce because of this work? And George, I'm going to throw it to you first. George: It's like the million dollar question right? Carol: Yes. Drum roll. George: Drum roll. (laughter) George: I think the biggest thing I would like to see is a shift in how we think about building the vocational rehabilitation workforce. And what I mean by that is, is that a lot of energy goes into reacting to vacancies and trying to fill positions quickly. And I think what we really need to do, kind of what Mario was mentioning earlier is, is that, you know, building something that looks a little bit more intentional that we have these clear pathways into the field. We have strong mentorships, better onboarding, and real opportunities for growth over time. And I also think that I'm really hoping that we are able to continue strengthening the professional identity of VR. This is incredibly meaningful work for anyone that does this. It truly sits at the crossroads of education, workforce development, disability services, employment, and a host of other things. But what's kind of unfortunate is, is that a lot of individuals are just not aware about the field or the impact that it can have. So it's kind of an interesting paradox, and I would love to see individuals more intentionally choose VR as a career because of how powerful the mission is. I think Mario had mentioned that before about a mission, and I think that that kind of holds true there. If I had a wish, I guess that's what it would be. Carol: I love it. Mario, how about you? Mario: Well, if I could say ditto, I would. But what George and I have said today is that our paper and our project, we wanted to be more intentional about workforce development within the VR system. We'd love to see students, interns, apprentices, and professionals from all related fields become aware of VR much earlier in their careers. We also hope that agencies continue building cultures that invest in mentorship, leadership development, and professional growth so employees can see long term futures within the system. But ultimately, we hope this work helps strengthen the stability of the VR workforce because when agencies are fully staffed, supported and developing future leaders, participants receive better services and better outcomes. And at the end of the day, that's what we're really all about, right? Carol: Absolutely. I think it'd be super cool if somebody came up and did this and came up with that. Like the registered apprenticeship for this, for the VR program, if someone took that on and, and did the thing because it would set the way for the rest of the country. And who knows, you could end up getting some credentials there, Mario and George, You know that you could report on your common performance measures and all of that. I think it would be pretty incredible. Okay. I'm going to throw you guys one last question. I wanted just to circle back to NRLI. I know we have lots of listeners and people are on the fence about whether, you know, to do something or make that investment because it is an investment of time and money for that year. In doing that kind of training, do you have any kind of little parting comment or little plug you could do for NRLI? And George, I'm going to throw out to you first. George: To me again. Oh boy. All right Mario, you can't say ditto. Okay. Without a question, 100% hands down. I would recommend it. I can't even talk enough about it. It was an amazing experience. You're absolutely correct, Carol, it is a lot of work. There certainly are some time constraints, me being on the East Coast, for example, having to go out to San Diego three times a year and then DC also, you know, just kind of the impact on terms of like how you can do your normal job, right? And as well as kind of your personal and family commitments. But I think we said this earlier was, is that one of the biggest values, if you will, of NRLI, was the opportunity to step outside of your day to day work and to engage with colleagues and actually people who eventually kind of become good friends of yours that live across the country, who are dealing with many of the same challenges. We have text groups, we kind of have friended each other on social media. And, you know, we're kind of, you know, shooting questions back and forth to each other to this day. And I think that speaks a lot to what NRLI can give to an individual. So it's certainly about value and relationships and this national network of individuals that are still kind of keeping in touch with. And I think probably the saddest part of the entire experience, if anyone wanted to ask, was that last day when we were all leaving DC and kind of realizing that we're not really going to have an opportunity to see each other. Carol: Yeah, well said George, well said. Mario, you get our last word, but it can't be. Ditto. George: Yeah. Mario: All right. You know what I would have to say is, if I'm speaking to the directors of VR agencies, and especially those that are kind of on the fence of sending staff from their agency to NRLI, What I would definitely say is it's a commitment and it's a long term commitment. And what I mean by that is you can't just send a few once and think that that's enough value added to your agency. You've got to commit over a long time horizon to send staff each year. And you know, Carol, you worked with New Mexico VR through the VRTAC. I'm sure that you've seen our leadership team within New Mexico really grow and develop over the last few years. And that's because the New Mexico VR agency has sent cohorts to the last, I would say at least six, maybe even seven cohorts. And so we've really invested hard in our leadership team in New Mexico. And we're seeing the results of that now. We got out of a cap, we're really making positive progress towards meeting our performance metrics. We have a way better understanding of our data. And now we're really focusing on leadership and culture within our agency. And we're really hoping that going forward, New Mexico VR will be a real place that people want to work at and stay. Carol: Yeah, it really is an investment in your people. I've seen it all over the country and my own, my work with you all, I've seen it, seen the deck chairs move. People have been in interline. They've moved up in their career in New Mexico VR, like I've seen folks in new positions. And it's really been lovely, lovely to see. And I've been appreciative of the management they're investing in VR and we are just so our listeners know why I'm plugging NRLI. It is part of our VRTAC grant and so we do support NRLI. A number of us on the TAC also serve as instructors throughout the various sessions, in addition to there's a faculty for NRLI. So I appreciate you both. I think you did a great job on your paper. If people want to see your paper, they can go to VRTAC.org and go to our top nav NRLI. There's a whole section on NRLI. And you can see the cohort's paper right there. So thank you both. I hope you have a great day. Thanks for joining me. Mario: Thanks, Carol. George: Thank you, Carol. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

3. 

   3 Aug 2026

   VRTAC Manager Minute- Turning NRLI Research into Suggestions for Reform: A Fresh Look at the RSA-911

   What if better data did not have to mean more paperwork? In this episode of Manager Minute, Sarah Leonard from the South Carolina Commission for the Blind and Pamela Clayton-Johnson from Maryland DORS join Carol Pankow to talk about their National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute research on the RSA-911. Their project takes a hard look at the growing administrative burden of federal reporting and asks a timely question: Are we collecting the right data for the right reasons? Sarah and Pamela discuss their recommendation to remove 71 data elements they believe exceed statutory requirements, while still maintaining accountability and protecting the integrity of VR data. The conversation also explores the importance of involving frontline staff, using data to improve services, and creating space for counselors to spend more time doing what matters most: helping individuals with disabilities achieve meaningful employment. Tune in for a thoughtful, practical, and refreshingly candid conversation about smarter data, stronger services, and leadership that challenges the field to think differently. Listen Here Full Transcript {Music} Sarah: That's kind of my whole philosophy of who I am as a person. I'm always looking for how we can do things better and questioning, like why we're doing things like, why are we reporting this? Why are we doing that? And so I think that kind of shows up in the paper. Pamela: I think we chose to focus on streamlining the RSA nine over 11 report, because we recognize how much time and energy staff spend on administrative tasks and reporting requirements. Sarah: Were spending all this time to report this data. It must be important. It must be being used somewhere. but, I am not seeing that for some of this. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today, we're joined by Sarah Leonard, planning and reporting director from South Carolina Commission for the Blind, and Pamela Clayton-Johnson, program manager for the Eligibility Unit at Maryland DORS. So how are you doing today, Sarah? Sarah: Good. I'm doing great. How are you? Carol: Awesome. And Pamela, how about you? Pamela: I'm good. Enjoying all this rain that we had within the last week. Carol: Oh, nice. Well, we're in a heat wave. I'm in Minnesota, and, boy, it's been smoking hot. Sarah: It's been hot here. Carol: So Sarah and Pamela recently published a cohort project through the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute that takes a thoughtful and timely look at the RSA 911. Their paper, Smarter Data, Better Outcomes, explores how reporting requirements have evolved over time, and the growing administrative burden on agencies, and what it would mean to streamline data collection in a way that would better support the core mission of vocational rehabilitation, which is helping individuals achieve employment and strengthening America's workforce. Their work raises important questions for the field about the balance between compliance, data, and outcomes, and offers practical ideas for rethinking how we can approach federal reporting moving forward. So let's dig in. So let's start with each of you. How did you get into vocational rehabilitation and what drew you to this work. And Pamela, I'm going to go to you first. Pamela: Okay. My interest in vocational rehabilitation began in 1999, after one of my close friends sustained a gunshot wound and became a quadriplegic. He was no longer able to do the work he had done before, but he still had a strong desire to work and remain independent. I began to help him research for programs and resources that could support him. And during that process, I discovered the Division of Rehabilitation Services DORS. So that experience changed my life and inspired me to pursue a career helping individuals with disabilities achieve their goal and match their full potential. I later earned my graduate degree in adult Education with a minor in Rehabilitation counseling, which allowed me to combine my passion for education, advocacy and services to others. Carol: That is an amazing story. You are the first person I've heard with like a story like that. And how is your friend doing today? Pamela: He is doing great. He is living independently. He has services in place for him. It's been so many years and he is doing well and he's thriving. So oh. Pamela: Yes. Carol: He's lucky to have a friend like you. I think that's awesome. Pamela: Yes. Carol: Sarah, how about you?How'd you get involved in VR? Sarah: My journey to VR is a recent one. I just started in VR in 2023, and I actually started my career as a public education teacher. And when I was looking to kind of make a career change, I was looking to kind of stay in the public service realm and ended up finding some job openings with the Commission for the blind and kind of my experience as an educator and everything. It just was kind of a natural fit. So I really enjoyed kind of the past three years now, and I'm excited for what's to come. Carol: Very cool. I remember when you first started, I feel like it was longer ago than three years. Time passes really fast. Sarah: It does. Carol: You both participated in NRLI live, and I just want to know a little bit about what that experience was like. And how did it shape your thinking as an emerging leader? And Sarah, I'll ping you first on that. Sarah: NRLI was an amazing experience and I learned so much from the staff from NRLI, but also just from connecting with so many VR professionals across the US. The way it's structured, you meet four times over the course of almost a year. And I think kind of as the year progresses, you are in different places in like kind of what you're doing at work. So when you come together each time as a group, you're kind of experiencing something different and everyone else kind of brings their own experiences and their different kind of situations currently occurring in their agencies to those conversations. So as like an emerging leader. It's just really helped me kind of see the bigger picture of VR on the national scale and how I kind of fit into that on the state level. Carol: Yeah, I love that so much because you see people from start to end because I get to help participate, at least in one of the weeks with doing some of the training, but really seeing how kind of the light bulbs are going on for you guys with that whole bigger national picture. I think that's awesome. Sarah: Yeah. Pamela: Right. Carol: How about you, Pamela? Pamela: Well, participating in the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute was a very rewarding and eye opening experience for me. It gave me the opportunity to connect with rehabilitation professionals across the country, and who all share the same passion for helping individuals with disabilities succeed. The experience helped shape my thinking as an emerging leader by teaching me the importance of collaboration, advocacy and being servant leadership. I learned that leadership is not just about managing people, it's about listening and supporting others, creating positive change of course, and making sure the voice of the people we serve are heard. The institute also encouraged me to think bigger about the future of vocational rehabilitation and the impact we have in helping individuals achieve independency, employment and a better quality of life. It strengthened my confidence as a leader, and it also reminded me that growth happens when you are willing to learn from others and step outside of your comfort zone, and being a part of the group really helped me step outside my comfort zone. So it was an amazing experience for me. Carol: I love that, and I know they have that coaching component. And so you each get a like a mentor coach that is with you throughout the whole time. And that I just think adds an extra element, like a personal touch for you specifically and all of that. So it really is a great, great program. NRLI is about building leadership capacity and driving change. How did that show up in this project that you chose to take on? And I'll throw that to either of you. Sarah: I mean, that's our whole project. Pamela: right. Sarah: Our whole goal was to kind of advocate for some changes in terms of reporting, specifically the 911. So I think that's kind of my whole philosophy of who I am as a person. I'm always looking for how we can do things better and questioning like why we're doing things like, why are we reporting this? Why are we doing that? And so I think that kind of shows up in the paper. Carol: So what led you guys specifically to go after the RSA 911 for your project? I know you went through some iterations of different topics you were going to pick. Pamela: Yes. I think we chose to focus on streamlining the RSA 911 report because we recognize how much time and energy staff spend on administrative tasks and reporting requirements. Our goal was basically to look at ways to reduce the burden, so vocational rehabilitation staff could spend more time focusing on what truly matters, which is helping individuals with disabilities prepare for, obtain and maintain employment. We wanted to help shift the focus to building America's workforce and improving outcomes for the people we serve. This project taught me that leadership is about identifying the challenges and working together to find solutions, and being willing to advocate for meaningful change that benefit both the staff and consumers. It also showed me the importance, of course, of innovation and thinking about how systems and processes can work more effectively while still meeting federal requirements. So we ponder over a lot of different topics, and this is the one that we end up with. So I'm happy with all that we did with this particular paper and all that I have learned in this process. Carol: So Sarah, you specifically, I know have lived this burden of the RSA 911 every day. How would you describe it to other folks that may not understand? Like, what's the big deal about that? Sarah: I think what people don't realize is how much that report really drives like agency processes, just like day to day. The data that we collect as VR agencies as a part of the intake process, the closure process, all of that that gets reported on the 911. And then for those who aren't kind of in it every day, kind of one of the biggest shocks when they start kind of looking at what is all involved, especially, I think Pamela did this. She went to her person in Maryland who oversees the 911 and asked to see kind of the whole data file that gets submitted up to RSA. And I think that's kind of what puts it into perspective. So for those that haven't seen that, there's a line for every single consumer at your agency who has an open case or was applying for services that quarter or who has closed within the past six quarters. And they stay on that report for those six quarters after they close. And for each of those participants, those individual people, there's a ton of columns of data that gets reported for each of those consumers. And those are the data elements of the 911. And so for those that haven't seen that, I would really encourage them to just ask the person at their agency who is in charge of the 911 just to kind of it puts things in perspective. I think that all of those entries into the case management system, like all of that gets reported out in some sort of fashion on that 911. And so there's stuff that has to go on in the background too. Like our field staff, of course have to collect the data, but most agencies have a whole case management system team who kind of keeps their case management system running. And those data elements all have to be maintained with coding in the back of the system, so that it can get reported out correctly on that report. So there's field staff hours that go into this report. There's technical staff hours that go into this report. And then of course there's data collection that may be involved as well that has to go into the report. So that's a collaboration between technical and people in positions like myself, but then also the field staff to make corrections if those are needed on the 911. So. Carol: And how many data elements are there exactly? Sarah: Over 300. Yeah. Pamela: Yes, it was over 300. And we understand how important that report is for the vocational rehabilitation industry. So we recognize that the counselors and employees spend a large amount of time entering and reviewing data, which can sometimes take away from the direct services to consumers. So we just wanted to explore ways to make the process more efficient. Carol: Well, you guys make the point because you say in your paper the reporting requirements expanded beyond what's required in statute. And so why does that matter to the field right now? Sarah: Well, it's just extra work. Like if we're going to expand the requirements beyond what is like actually legally required, there should be a reason for that. And some of these data elements that are beyond kind of legal requirements, you know, like with the rehab act and everything, some of those data elements, I don't see them being used by RSA. I don't see them being used by Congress in any way. So RSA puts out an annual report to Congress every year, and the amount of data that actually goes into that report is very small, compared to the over 300 data elements that are reported for each consumer at every VR agency in the country. Pamela: And it just increased the workload for staffing agencies. You know, when reporting requirements continue to grow for the counselors and staff, they can spend more time focusing on paperwork instead of the data entry and working directly with the consumers and employees. You know, this can impact, of course, you know, the efficiency, staff morale and overall ability to provide timely services. So it's especially important because the VR agencies, which is us, are focused on helping build America's workforce by supporting individuals with disabilities in reaching their employment goals. So the field wants to make sure that the focus stays on serving people. That's the main goal, creating opportunities and improving employment outcomes, not becoming overwhelmed by administrative tasks, you know? So that was our main focus. Carol: Yeah, I hear that a lot. You know, people are like, I'm just pushing paper now. Pamela: Right? Carol: I'm the data collector. Instead of having time to actually talk to the people. So was that like your biggest realization that all that data wasn't actually going into the reported to Congress? Sarah: That was one of them for me. I think because I just would expect, if we're giving this data out, it would be being used in some sort of way. We're spending all this time to report this data. It must be important. It must be being used somewhere. But I'm not seeing that for some of this. When I kind of came to that realization, I was like, well, then why are we doing all this work? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Yeah, that for me, it was. Pamela: Yeah, we still understand that equity and good data are important, but there also needs to be balanced so agencies can effectively carry out the mission and the best support the people that we serve. So that's our main focus. We want to make sure that we're providing, you know, services to consumers instead of spending a lot of time on paperwork and things that, you know, they're not even looking at or is not meaningful. So it's just like, we're just trying to focus on what matters and balance out the workload. Carol: You did a really thorough job on being super specific on the data elements you recommended that got removed. I mean, it was like, I'm like, holy cow, because it was like you went through the whole entire directory and there were a lot, I don't even know how many, but how did you guys go about doing that to decide the elements that you were recommending to remove? Sarah: We spent a lot of time reading the laws and the regulations. I read the Rehab Act and spent time kind of analyzing that to determine like, what is actually required by the Rehab Act for us to report on. And after doing that review, I came to the conclusion that these 71 data elements that we proposed in our paper. There's no kind of legal requirement for those to be reported in the way that they're currently asking us to report them. Pamela: Right. Sarah: So most of the data elements that we propose to remove are related to service provider type. And the Rehab Act stipulates that only aggregate data on the types of providers and agency uses needs to be reported in some sort of fashion, but it does not stipulate that it needs to be reported on an individual case level for each of the services every quarter, which is what we're essentially doing right now through the 911. Pamela: And Sarah has so much experience because this is what she does every single day. So she was very, very helpful in teaching me about all the different data elements and what is used and things like that. So it was very informative. I had learned so much throughout the process when we were researching this paper and just trying to make sure that we're accurate on what we're reporting. Carol: Yeah, I liked it because I felt like you guys were very thoughtful and you approached this in a really good way and did an extremely thorough job. I would think RSA would be super interested in what you did. Have you spoken to RSA and maybe if you did, like what was that conversation like? You're kind of calling their baby ugly, you know? Pamela: We actually met with them. We met with Michael Quinn and he provided great insight and was very open to hearing our ideas and concerns regarding the RSA 911 report process. One of the biggest things that we learned was the importance of collaboration and having honest conversations about the challenges VR agencies face. It was encouraging also to hear that he believed our paper and research were realistic and thoughtfully developed. He also shared that his team will review our paper and take our recommendations into consideration, which showed us that there's value in bringing forth ideas that could improve processes within the vocational rehabilitation system. For me, it reinforced the idea that meaningful change starts with research, communication, and a willingness to work together to find practical solutions. Of course, that benefits both agencies and the individuals we serve. So meeting with his team was very informative and he was very realistic with the expectations and things like that. It was good. Sarah: We actually met with him twice, so we met with him once while we were kind of developing the paper. And that's what really shaped kind of our approach to writing the paper and research that we did. He told us in a bit of a cryptic way. He told us that we needed to think inside the box first and then think outside of it. So he encouraged us to read the laws, read the regulations. So that's kind of what shaped our method to collecting all of the research and the knowledge that we needed in order to be able to propose these changes. And then just meeting with him and his team kind of after the paper was done, when we went to DC for the final session of NRLI, It was really encouraging because him and his team were really open to the recommendations that we were making. And also, they said it was like getting public comment before the public comment period. So as everyone knows, the RSA 911 is up for renewal and was recently posted for public comment through the OMB. So they, I think, genuinely are looking for feedback on their reports and things like that. And I would really encourage agencies to take advantage of the public comment period on these reports, not just on the 911, but on the RSA 17, the 15, all of those different reports that we have to do, because RSA genuinely, I think, wants our feedback and wants to know the burden that it's putting on agencies and our ideas for streamlining. Carol: So I'm sure you're quoting this paper in the public comment, correct? Pamela: Yes. Sarah: Yes. Carol: Yeah, that's great. Well, you both bring up a really good point about being able to like do the research and speak up because I have heard for years people complaining about the 911, but I have never seen anyone do the job that you two did to dig in deep, do your research, do all the homework, and I'm glad Michael steered you down that path. Like read the rehab act... Pamela: right. Carol: ...look at the things, what's required, and then going back and meticulously, like coming up with 71 data elements. Wasn't 78 or 69. You came up with 71. You go, these are the ones. We don't need them. And I think a lot of times in VR, we kind of complain about things, but we don't always bring it up to the source that could do something about it because they just hear us anecdotally like, oh, you know, it's too much. But what exactly and what exactly could be removed? I think you did the work. People are going to be super happy about this if you get some success with that. Pamela: Yes. Carol: So if your recommendations were implemented. What do you think would be the biggest shift agencies would feel in their day to day operations? Pamela: I believe the biggest shift for VR agencies will feel is having more time and flexibility to focus on serving consumers, instead of spending so much time on administrative tasks and data entry. You know, counselors and staff will likely experience a reduction in paperwork as well and reporting burden, which could improve efficiency, reduce stress and allow more attention to be placed on counseling, job placement, employee engagement, and consumer support. I think agencies will still be able to collect important data and maintain accountability, because that's still important, but the process could become more streamlined and meaningful. The goal is not to remove the reporting, but to make sure the information being collected truly adds value and support that better outcomes. So overall, the biggest change will be shifting more time and energy back to the mission of vocational rehabilitation, which is helping individuals with disabilities prepared for, obtain and maintain meaningful employment while supporting America's workforce. Sarah: I think as well, like we call for removing those 71 data elements, but we also call for RSA to take a genuine look at the number of burden hours through the Paperwork Reduction Act and determine a more accurate estimate of those hours. And then also, we call for them to explore some opportunities to develop some centralized federal databases and data sharing systems, so that information on other WIOA program involvement and things like post-exit wages and credential data, that data could be more easily obtained by agencies. So a lot of agencies right now, they have to kind of manage these individual agreements with these... Carol: Right. Pamela: Right. Sarah: ...different entities to obtain some of this data. And so if we could in some way centralize that, so that whole process is easier. Agencies wouldn't have to kind of independently maintain these agreements with separate Agencies or organizations. Pamela: Right. Carol: Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting point. Thinking about that centralized data collection, I know like DDS, Pamela, you worked in that, you know, Pamela: yes. Carol: There is our centralized system. I used to manage DDS. And so thinking about kind of that nationwide database or whatever that you could possibly have. Now, I suppose people would say it's a little easier said than done, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Was there any traction? Did you get to talk to Michael about that concept at all? Sarah: We did, and his comments back were kind of similar to what you just said, that it's easier said than done. But, you know, we have things like the Swiss data right now for wages. So I think it could be done. It just wouldn't be, you know, at the snap of your fingers, it would take some time to develop those. Carol: Well, you guys can be part of something like magnificently great. That could happen with your recommendations. I love it. Pamela: Yes. Carol: So stepping back as emerging leaders, what advice would you give others about like balancing compliance, data collection and achieving those real employment outcomes? What advice would you give agencies as they're facing all this? Pamela: I would say that it's important to remember that compliance data collection and employment outcomes all matter, but the mission should always stay centered on the people we serve. Data reporting are important because they help show accountability, measure progress, and tell the story of the work being done. However, we have to be careful that the process does not become overwhelming, that it takes away from direct services and meaningful engagement with consumers. My advice would be to focus on balance, use data as a tool to improve services and outcomes, not just a task to complete. Encourage teamwork, open communication and innovation when looking at processes and systems. It is also important for leaders to listen to frontline staff because they often understand where the biggest challenges exist and most importantly, never lose sight of the ultimate goal, which is helping individuals with disabilities achieve independency, meaningful employment, and success in their lives. Sarah: Pamela, I think you summed that up beautifully. Pamela: Thank you. Sarah: Yeah. I think my biggest advice to agencies is to start looking at your data and looking at your data with your front line workers who are in it every day and doing the job. They deserve to see that data and be involved in conversations surrounding that data. And it's a culture shift to kind of get your agency talking about that data, especially if you've not done it before. Some field staff, I'm sure, have never heard of the RSA 911 before in some agencies. So I think they deserve to be in those conversations and those conversations. I think it equips them to do their jobs more efficiently and effectively. Carol: I think people get so exhausted. I feel like sometimes with the collection of the data and making sure it's accurate, and then you submit it. And then on the other end, I know when we go on and do TA and you ask people about like the data or the observations, this isn't everywhere, but I think sometimes it gets so exhausted by the process, you forget to, on the other end, actually like use it and take a look at what the data is telling you. And I love that you said, you know, to involve your frontline staff because there have been different times we have like, say we look at the data dashboards and we're doing a little training with an agency and we have the field staff in there. They've never seen any of it. They don't know where this goes. They just know they have to do this thing where they're collecting all this stuff and it goes to some mysterious place, but they have no idea what it says. And it really is the story of your agency that does get communicated to Congress. Otherwise, they don't have any way to know about the anecdotal, awesome, wonderful things that are happening and getting people into employment unless you have something you can share. So we don't want to fall down at the very last minute and go, okay, we did all the thing, but we're not letting anybody know internally about what's going on with our data and then making changes as a result of it. You know, when you see different trends or things happening, being able to go in and go like, hey, what's up? You guys and the frontline people are sometimes, well, not sometimes they are the best people to talk to. They see what's happening and it comes out in the data. And everybody's sitting in central office like, mm, what's going on in that region? Go talk to that region and find out what's happening. Pamela: Exactly. The frontline staff, we need them. We need to get feedback from them because they are important in the decision making regarding things that, you know, the input and things like that for the different data elements. And I had a conversation with some of my staff because I work, you know, on the front line, just getting answers regarding, you know, different data entries at the time that they spend gathering information. So it was a lot of information that I learned. And just looking at the RSA 911 for the first time, it was overwhelming because I didn't even know all that information was being collected and used. So it was eye opening for me. Carol: And bless her heart, she does it all day, every day, I know. Are you sure you're happy you left public to do this? Sarah: And I think talking with our field staff about like the 911 data, for instance, like that, like just like NRLI, how we kind of came to this realization of how we fit into this bigger kind of national picture. I think for our staff, having conversations around our data and things like that can help them see that as well. Carol: Yeah. That's cool. So one last thing for you all. What about a little plug for NRLI, is there any like if we have listeners out there going like, what's this thing you all participated in? Do you have any kind of little plug you want to tell them about why they should do that program? Pamela: It was a leadership program, a leadership program where all people from all over the world, different walks in their career path participated. And I learned so much from people networking in itself. We still stay in contact, and their system sometimes may be a little different from how we do our things in Maryland. But just being around those folks that we are passionate about, the vocational rehabilitation process was just amazing and very fulfilling for me, and I think it will be an amazing experience for anyone that wants to be a part of this career path to participate. It was an awesome experience for me. Carol: I love that. Sarah: I really appreciated how, I guess intentional the whole entire experience like is designed like. So I think it's really intentional that it happens over the course of like basically a whole year. And then the different sessions or each week has kind of like a different almost like theme, I guess, or concept that you're learning that week. And then by the time you get to the final session in DC, it's kind of the culmination of everything that you've learned. But since time has passed and it's not just kind of like a one and  done thing, you have also kind of matured in your career. At least that's kind of how I felt as I went through it. I also started supervising two new people during that time period. So it was all very relevant and very, I guess, eye opening. But then also there's something I think, really important about it being a leadership program that's also in the lens of VR, right? Like there's tons of leadership programs out there, but they're not kind of tailored towards being a leader in VR. And so I think that's what makes NRLI so unique and different. Pamela: Most definitely. Carol: Yeah, I've seen over time, you know, those cohorts, you make those networks of friends, you guys have, you know, chat groups and all different things and getting together when you're at a conference or, you know, just people to call on and get ideas. If you run into trouble at your agency. You're like, oh, I'm gonna pick up the phone, I'm calling Pamela now, or I'm calling Sarah because they might have a different perspective on that. And I just love that transplanting of ideas across the country. There's such great benefit in that. I'm so glad you guys had a great experience. Pamela: I did, it was amazing. Carol: Thank you both today for this conversation. I'm expecting great things from your paper. I'm really hoping that it is the start of some cool changes. And thank you for joining me. Appreciate you both. Sarah: Thank you. Pamela: Thank you so much. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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