Needling To Get To The Point Podcast

About Needling To Get To The Point Podcast

Needling to Get to the Point is a conversation series with Dr. Bex Groebner, LAc about what acupuncture looks like on the ground right now: in clinics, in rural towns, in hospitals, and inside the realities of debt, burnout, integration, and hope. Through candid interviews with practitioners, researchers, and leaders, we explore what’s fragile, what’s durable, and what might actually move this profession forward. needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast)

Publisher

Dr. Rebecca Groebner, DAc, LAc

Category

education · health & fitness

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

10 Feb 2026

Latest episode

15 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

16 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   15 Oct 2026

   Kim Christensen: Queering the Clinic

   Dr. Kim Christensen is a trauma-informed acupuncturist in Minneapolis. She co-owns Constellation Acupuncture and Healing Arts with her business partner, Amy Kuretsky. Kim says they employ 13 people on W-2 payroll and take no insurance. She tells me how an untreated tick bite and years of illness led her to Chinese medicine. She describes a treatment room she calls a sandbox, where patients get to define themselves and set their own terms. We talk about accessibility beyond cost, and about her doctoral capstone on Chinese medicine and gender-affirming hormone therapy. Kim says yin and yang were not overtly gendered for much of the history of Chinese medicine. She put the capstone away exhausted, and now she’s thinking about bringing it back. Michael McMahon, whom I interviewed on August 25, 2026, introduced us. We also talked about a part two on Kim’s teaching. Guest: Dr. Kim Christensen, Licensed Acupuncturist, Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine. Co-owner of Constellation Acupuncture and Healing Arts in Minneapolis. Master’s degree from Northwestern Health Sciences University. Pediatric Integrative Health Fellowship at the University of Minnesota Masonic Children’s Hospital. Studied at Henan University of Chinese Medicine in Zhengzhou. Doctorate from the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine in 2023. Works with the Earl E. Bakken Center for Spirituality & Healing at the University of Minnesota. Chapters * 00:00 — Meeting Kim, craniosacral work and running a clinic * 10:36 — The tick bite and the path into Chinese medicine * 18:28 — The treatment room as a sandbox * 27:32 — Yin, yang and gender in the history of Chinese medicine * 35:17 — A clinic that works for everyone: tables, food therapy, draping and mentoring * 50:04 — The capstone, and Chinese medicine as a queer practice Quotes * “I really see the treatment room in some ways as almost like a sandbox or a playground for people to express themselves.” — Kim * “Patients are the most incredible teachers and the most incredible mirrors we could possibly ask for.” — Kim * “Matter is never a settled matter.” — Karen Barad, quoted by Kim Content notes: Eating disorders and diet culture (around 43:07). The linked Hedva essay discusses suicide attempts, childhood abuse and police violence.A note on the history of yin and yang. Kim says yin and yang were not overtly gendered for much of the history of Chinese medicine. Here is how the timeline runs, as scholars tell it. The characters first appear on oracle bones more than 3,000 years ago, meaning sunlight and shade, as separate words. A text called the Zuozhuan, set in the sixth century BCE, has a physician name yin and yang among six forces that can cause disease. By the Han dynasty, yin and yang are a paired system joined with the five phases, and the pairing with male and female is explicit. The Yellow Emperor’s Inner Classicwas compiled in the Han. Sources: Robin R. Wang, “Yinyang (Yin-yang),” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and a review of Donald Harper’s Early Chinese Medical Literature. Links are in the sources list below. Find Kim * Constellation Acupuncture & Healing Arts (https://www.constellationacu.com/) * Mentoring sessions with Kim or Amy Kuretsky (https://constellationacu.janeapp.com/#/professional-mentorship) * Kim says practitioners in their first year of practice get 50% off. * Earl E. Bakken Center for Spirituality & Healing, University of Minnesota (https://csh.umn.edu/) Sources and further reading (in the order they come up) * Michael McMahon, interview recorded August 25, 2026 (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/p/michael-mcmahon?r=1m9eta&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web). * Alaine D. Duncan and Kathy Kain, The Tao of Trauma: A Practitioner’s Guide for Integrating Five Element Theory and Trauma Treatment, North Atlantic Books (paperback released January 2019). https://northatlanticbooks.com/?p=56189 (Kim trained with Duncan) * Oregon Administrative Rule 836-053-0017 (https://secure.sos.state.or.us/oard/view.action?ruleNumber=836-053-0017), additions to essential health benefits for plan years beginning January 1, 2022. Requires up to 12 acupuncture visits per year in plans that must include essential health benefits. * Karen Barad, “On Touching—The Inhuman That Therefore I Am,” differences 23(3), 2012, pp. 206–223. The corrected version (v1.1) is open access through Diaphanes: https://www.diaphanes.com/person/karen-barad-1827 (https://www.diaphanes.com/person/karen-barad-1827). An essay on touch, quantum field theory and ethics. Kim’s line comes from it. * Charlotte Furth, A Flourishing Yin: Gender in China’s Medical History, 960–1665, University of California Press, 1999. https://www.ucpress.edu/books/a-flourishing-yin/paper (https://www.ucpress.edu/books/a-flourishing-yin/paper). A history of fuke, medicine for women, from the Song to the end of the Ming dynasty. Kim points to its chapter on the Yellow Emperor’s body. * Smarthistory, “Who was Fu Hao?” (https://smarthistory.org/?p=59817) A consort of King Wu Ding and a military leader, known from oracle bone inscriptions and from her intact tomb at Anyang, found in 1976. * Association for Size Diversity and Health, “Health at Every Size® Principles.” https://asdah.org/health-at-every-size-haes-approach/ (https://asdah.org/health-at-every-size-haes-approach/). The organization’s description of its framework as an alternative to weight-centered care. * Catherine J. Lumenello, Gender and Sexuality in Chinese Medicine, Singing Dragon, 2019. https://us.singingdragon.com/products/gender-and-sexuality-in-chinese-medicine (https://us.singingdragon.com/products/gender-and-sexuality-in-chinese-medicine). A handbook for students and practitioners on gender, physiology, relationships and sexual attraction. Lumenello was Kim’s capstone mentor. * Nigel Ching, “Chinese Medicine is Queer,” The Lantern (year and issue not shown in the file). https://ching.dk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Is-Chinese-medicine-queer-The-Lantern.pdf (https://ching.dk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Is-Chinese-medicine-queer-The-Lantern.pdf). Argues Chinese medicine sits in a “queer” position, outside the norm, relative to Western medicine. Kim quoted Ching’s 2016 talk at the Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) Kongress in Rothenburg, Germany, in her capstone introduction. * Johanna Hedva, “Sick Woman Theory,” first published in Mask Magazine, January 2016. https://topicalcream.org/features/sick-woman-theory/ (https://topicalcream.org/features/sick-woman-theory/). * Johanna Hedva, How to Tell When We Will Die: On Pain, Disability, and Doom (https://johannahedva.com/how-to-tell-when-we-will-die.php), Hillman Grad Books (Zando), September 2024. * Robin R. Wang, “Yinyang (Yin-yang),” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. https://iep.utm.edu/yinyang/ (https://iep.utm.edu/yinyang/) * Review of Donald Harper, Early Chinese Medical Literature: The Mawangdui Medical Manuscripts. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/4620 (https://muse.jhu.edu/article/4620) Also recommended by Kim (not discussed in the episode) * Howard Chiang, After Eunuchs: Science, Medicine, and the Transformation of Sex in Modern China, Columbia University Press (2018, confirm). https://cup.columbia.edu/book/after-eunuchs/9780231185783/ (https://cup.columbia.edu/book/after-eunuchs/9780231185783/). * Yi-Li Wu, Reproducing Women: Medicine, Metaphor, and Childbirth in Late Imperial China, University of California Press, 2010. https://www.ucpress.edu/books/reproducing-women/hardcover (https://www.ucpress.edu/books/reproducing-women/hardcover) * Sophie Strand, The Body Is a Doorway: A Memoir, Running Press, March 4, 2025. https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/sophie-strand/the-body-is-a-doorway-a-memoir/9780762487417/?lens=running-press (https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/sophie-strand/the-body-is-a-doorway-a-memoir/9780762487417/?lens=running-press). A memoir of chronic illness, ecology and the stories we tell about the body. Kim often recommends it to patients. Get full access to Needling To Get To The Point at needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4)

2. 

   29 Sept 2026

   ACAHM at the 2026 NACIQI Hearing

   ACAHM, NACIQI, and Why the September 24 Hearing Mattered In this episode, Bex explains what NACIQI is, what ACAHM does, and why the committee’s finding of noncompliance on student achievement matters for acupuncture schools, graduates, and students. The episode walks through the hearing, the long-running debate over earnings and debt outcomes, and how public comments from clinicians, employers, association leaders, and a current student helped shape the outcome.This is a solo explainer built for listeners who want the full backstory without jargon. The main throughline is simple: for the first time in a long time, affected people showed up, and it changed the conversation. Key topics * In this episode, Bex Groebner breaks down the roles of ACAHM, the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine, and NACIQI, the federal committee that reviews accreditors. * She explains why accreditation matters so much: ACAHM approval is tied to access to federal Title IV student loans. * She lays out how the September 24 hearing worked, including public comments, assigned committee readers, and the Department of Education’s review process. * Bex traces a 12-year paper trail showing ACAHM and related acupuncture organizations repeatedly arguing against earnings-based accountability measures. * She contrasts those arguments with borrower outcomes, including examples of graduates carrying heavy debt and using Borrower Defense to Repayment. * She highlights how public commenters such as Cris Monteiro, Jamie Mohabali, Lauren Morse, Danielle Reghi, Rachel Firak, and Jennifer Briggs brought real-world experience into the hearing. * She notes that ACAHM’s executive director, Mark McKenzie, framed graduates as people who can make choices, while committee members challenged that framing. * The committee’s response was stronger than expected, with Bob Shireman saying the problems were more severe than he realized. * NACIQI voted 10 to 0 to recommend ACAHM keep its recognition, but with conditions and a 12-month window to address admissions transparency, curriculum requirements, and career earnings to debt ratios. * The committee also found ACAHM noncompliant on the federal student achievement standard, which is the key headline from the hearing. * Bex closes with practical next steps for listeners who may qualify for Borrower Defense to Repayment or want to file complaints with ACAHM. Timestamps (00:00) What NACIQI (https://sites.ed.gov/naciqi/) and ACAHM (https://www.acahm.org) are, and why this hearing matters (01:27) ACAHM’s role in acupuncture school accreditation and federal loan access (02:24) What NACIQI does and how the federal review process works (03:43) Why public comments were unusual and important in this review (05:02) The long-running fight over earnings-based accountability (06:27) The 2014 ACAHM letter (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11THXwImdBYZW0L-ulSRwUdvxQcQTEDx1/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=113926416459779426550&rtpof=true&sd=true) and the same argument resurfacing years later (07:24) Borrower Defense to Repayment and why the schools opposed stronger protections (08:28) ACAHM’s 2026 comment against the newest earnings test (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MdwWAu-cHuOAI9HJAXdNXl52ABH0Bj_U/view?usp=sharing) (08:53) The review cycle that brought ACAHM back before NACIQI (10:16) The people who spoke: clinicians, employers, leaders, and a current student (12:42) The common themes across all the testimonies (13:11) ACAHM’s response and how it framed the room (13:41) The committee pushback and Bob Shireman’s reaction (14:11) The 10 to 0 vote and the new conditions imposed on ACAHM (14:39) The finding of noncompliance on student achievement (15:08) What happens next in the review process (15:37) What listeners can do now: Borrower Defense, complaints, and staying engaged What you can do * Keep paying attention. The next real checkpoint is about a year out, when ACAHM has to show the Department it fixed what NACIQI flagged. * Get your Borrower Defense to Repayment application (https://studentaid.gov/borrower-defense/) in if you think you qualify. * File complaints with ACAHM (https://www.acahm.org/policies/complaint-review). Complaints have to be reviewed, and they go on the record. * Go to the AHM Coalition town hall on September 30 (http://url6134.ncbahm.org/ls/click?upn=u001.m0brzzp1PPu4m-2BLNtRAZB-2BFwVPrJegNDL0mJ6qBR8FhSEJz7LNspxlbjmMg-2BwpgwFdtnKVJe4BALih634d1otw-3D-3DGVb2_FbCX6AT9G6400jkpyZ3VYBZUA40LY0o55M9-2BJJtxlzCmCVouUrLG-2Fy5l9FtRYkzcjETtteqmWcLi1f3yQx8zJItGihN31eyPr98zQVtLmTWDm4EVizGAigt8WA3gGTJrKjNc2tUCxqFvtIxr06UiW6oejIuf7p1dJRo51Rc9FOTkQqZhIiB47GZAvUmEi83XWPh33HyPPPvk5NjaYzDDXbps-2FH01oUZ5AHc1XpwJY4Why0rfx45hOvZnETsIB3ZaEN9kTTE6xEFNCCgvNI-2FFYaSK0rJOM7qnd1yT98dDiBPuMgiotkJAI0rw3GvRL2RdzgPw-2Fgr1vioZoa5gy6Iqye3m4-2B5eKdCu-2BO83LNAPT3A5Uo7340ZZhXckrupsoFDPpcRR0BkEyuKM6LsQ5kyQmztJX-2BY0IdIWjg-2FqlT30gwx9s8iJyAN79Rtv-2FV4NHESuVjlna-2FI-2BvjPcETrJYtlZjYttK9hcjbOqg9f6PZE7ZyfpH7PkKFxYrMFcd4nzO4xl-2Bhp00CSh9e4W4itve300bf3UgxcIZ6-2B1iqrWZXsMtXYEjxLP7KFqR9O5Y4XQKmN8FvbJGKDEeh4OtE3iTajdMxQ1Bg8QHLIHzS-2Fz1BG3CmFQwyN1I2T9PcBBBk1MzvQKBoucUzPd3tYj32sVZCj0P8nfNAIimtjibXvoyUuuEC9MMoljGBRq7oXsKbg8cjCQHblRtNBlXkRNKRW84qM-2BM9e5vyrtTh4WUPUR73tpl6FYI-2Fu0dCdKXfoIf7EbuCbw8lcZkS-2BLFLi3Z6toAUg0srROC-2B15APQSaJQA4LKT18MDfyz8dYSGan3kR2mklIN9yBdVztuQsgIcft9ulO-2B5BVwrAzUzdTNB9WnLzAW6KC6j8QEoyCFsZ2QZ8C85W-2Fd67-2BlohJOz3Ego3jWx0GLj3o7nBYgvKwpkcM3ahEFN2zlmqG97bTobOk4p05zjPCRqxPROCXEAai4bbdppA8po4ub-2FuqIlq9Orq2C6prt06mbV9UoqYGeqxLTTEJz707poPHtTFpFcaKuroj5HQ1q0lXMXcim-2Fb5yc5i-2F0idZvFLE-3D), where the hearing will be reviewed. Go informed, so we’re not just hearing the same story told on repeat. Thank you for listening and participating in learning this stuff! It will give you more power in the situation. More to come… Get full access to Needling To Get To The Point at needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4)

3. 

   27 Sept 2026

   Adrianna Locke

   Take action first Oregon’s governor and legislators are considering limiting or removing acupuncture, chiropractic, physical therapy, massage, and naturopathic care from the Oregon Health Plan. The governor’s budget is due December 1st, and legislators are meeting in Salem this fall. Now is the time to write. * Find your legislators: Oregon Legislature – Find Your Legislator (https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/FindYourLegislator/legislator-lookup.html) * Adrianna’s Patient Testimonial Template: [Find it here (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rMvomtPPEX5UzLl-25K0Re7Gk05_MuLJ?usp=share_link)] * Let us know you sent it: Tracking form (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfu576wJ7W_TZR65MZkfxH7YNbMUMOU5k1f8e9j6ZOB18eWEQ/viewform?usp=dialog) It takes about 15 minutes. If you’re a practitioner, share the template with your OHP patients. There’s also a handwritten version and flyers for your waiting room below: About this episode Adrianna Locke and I go way back. We went to school together and trained under the same Sifu. She’s been practicing in Portland since 2011, and her path runs from social service work in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to community acupuncture research at Helfgott, to Working Class Acupuncture, to founding Zócalo Wellness. Zócalo is a culturally specific clinic serving communities of color and queer clients, and it takes OHP. We talk about: * How Oregon became one of the few states to cover acupuncture under Medicaid, through the HERC and the Prioritized List * What the governor’s advisory group has proposed, and the difference between limiting the benefit and removing it * Why a full cut could threaten acupuncture’s essential health benefit status and affect private insurance coverage, not just OHP * Why this matters even if you don’t take insurance * Health Care for All Oregon and the push for single payer * Ceiba Medicine, Adrianna’s ancestral lineage healing practice Correction In the episode, I said about 60% of Oregon’s Medicaid funding is federal. It’s closer to 75%. Connect with Adrianna * Ceiba Medicine (ancestral lineage healing, free consults): ceibamedicine.com (https://ceibamedicine.com/) * Zócalo Wellness: zocalowellness.com (https://zocalowellness.com) Resources mentioned On the Medicaid budget: * Governor’s Advisory Group on Medicaid Sustainability – Final Report (https://www.oregon.gov/oha/OHPB/MtgDocs/4.%20Advisory%20Group%20on%20Medicaid%20Sustainability%20Report%20to%20Governor%20Kotek%20Final.pdf) * OPB: Oregon eyes $421 million in Medicaid cuts (https://www.opb.org/article/2026/07/07/oregon-medicaid-cuts-fewer-benefits-prescription-drugs/) * Oregon Capital Chronicle: GOP tax law will cost Oregon nearly $1.3B for Medicaid (https://oregoncapitalchronicle.com/2026/09/09/2025-gop-tax-law-will-cost-oregon-nearly-1-3b-for-medicaid-over-next-four-years-officials-say/) Research: * Tippens, Chao, Connelly & Locke (2013), Patient Perspectives on Care Received at Community Acupuncture Clinics: A Qualitative Thematic Analysis (https://bmccomplementmedtherapies.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1472-6882-13-293). Adrianna is a co-author. * Chao, Tippens & Connelly (2012), Utilization of Group-Based, Community Acupuncture Clinics (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22551075) Organizations: * Health Care for All Oregon (https://www.hcao.org/) * Ancestral Medicine, Daniel Foor: ancestralmedicine.org (https://ancestralmedicine.org/) * Oregon Association of Acupuncturists: https://www.oregonacupuncturists.com (https://www.oregonacupuncturists.com) Thank you to Amber Reding, whose template Adrianna’s letter builds on. Get full access to Needling To Get To The Point at needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4)

4. 

   14 Sept 2026

   Why Your Voice Matters on September 24th

   What does meaningful accountability in acupuncture education look like and why does it matter now? Join Bex Groebner, Danielle Reghi and Ryan Hofer for a detailed conversation about accreditation, student debt, career outcomes, and the future of acupuncture education. We unpack the role of ACAHM and NACIQI, the gap between program costs and real-world earning potential, and why professional organizations, students, and practitioners all have a role to play in shaping stronger standards. The conversation also offers practical guidance for anyone who wants to participate in the upcoming NACIQI hearing through written or oral testimony. Major details: * Review happens September 24th (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2026/08/21/2026-17135/national-advisory-committee-on-institutional-quality-and-integrity-notice-of-meeting) * You must register by September 16th (https://web.cvent.com/event/fbdea96e-bccf-4541-bda3-8e8fd6e7d9e7/summary) to be able to watch/listen 🍿 * To make an oral or written comment, you must email ThirdPartyComments@ed.gov (mailto:ThirdPartyComments@ed.gov) by September 16 To make a comment: * Submit an email to the ThirdPartyComments@ed.gov mailbox. * In the subject line, write: “Oral Comment Request: [NACIQI review Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine]” or “Written Statement: [NACIQI review Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine]” * The email must include your name(s), title, organization/affiliation, mailing address, email address, and telephone number. In this episode * How practitioners and former students can make effective written and oral comments * What accreditation is meant to do for students, schools, and the profession * Why rigorous standards should include real career readiness, not only academic requirements * The student-debt crisis in acupuncture education * How tuition, loan structures, and earnings data can create misleading expectations * Why self-employment and limited hospital employment matter when evaluating outcomes * The importance of financial stability, transparency, and independent oversight * How practitioners and former students can make effective written and oral comments About the guests Danielle Reghi is president of the Oregon Association of Acupuncturists and owner of Zen Space Wellness in Portland. She is an acupuncture practitioner, policy advocate, and co-lead of the OAA Education Task Force. She writes about the acupuncture profession at Holistically Driven (https://holisticallydriven.substack.com/). Ryan Hofer is executive director of the Pain Relief and Education Collective and a specialist in pain management. He has represented student borrowers in federal negotiated rulemaking and writes about debt and healthcare education at Debt by Natural Causes (https://debtbynaturalcauses.substack.com). Resources mentioned * NACIQI hearing registration (https://web.cvent.com/event/fbdea96e-bccf-4541-bda3-8e8fd6e7d9e7) and oral-comment information * Written-comment guidance * 34 CFR 602 accreditation standards (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-34/subtitle-B/chapter-VI/part-602) * ACAHM 2014 letter against accountability metrics (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11THXwImdBYZW0L-ulSRwUdvxQcQTEDx1/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=113926416459779426550&rtpof=true&sd=true) * ACAHM 2026 opposition to AHEAD accountability metrics (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MdwWAu-cHuOAI9HJAXdNXl52ABH0Bj_U/view?usp=sharing) * DOE approval for ACAHM accreditation (https://www.ed.gov/laws-and-policy/higher-education-laws-and-policy/college-accreditation/institutional-accrediting-agencies) * NCBAHM Test Score pass rates (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZmC1-dOa6XHx6WSwji0PMo9O_llyQcrk1x84xkrxC5c/edit?usp=sharing) * Sorted HEA group data (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11mHo1mPSlDa7znGdRRRVHrk0sol7Fu8j/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=113926416459779426550&rtpof=true&sd=true) * Bureau of Labor and Statistics (https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes291291.htm) data acupuncturists * Qiological Wayfinding the Future Series (https://qiological.com/podcast-category/wayfinding-the-future/) with Danielle and Ryan episodes Listener takeaway If you have personal experience with acupuncture education, student debt, school closures, or career outcomes, consider sharing a concise, specific, fact-supported written comment and registering to speak at the hearing. Get full access to Needling To Get To The Point at needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4)

5. 

   25 Aug 2026

   Michael McMahon: Teaching as Freedom

   Michael McMahon has been a licensed massage therapist and acupuncturist in Portland for 25 years, and is the founder of Moving Mountain Institute (https://www.movingmountaininstitute.com). He’s one of the most thoughtful educators I’ve ever encountered and one of my oldest friends and mentors in this work. Michael came to bodywork and acupuncture through a convergence of many things, including a cancer diagnosis in massage school, a lifelong love of classical Chinese poetry, and many years of leading wilderness programs for teenagers. His approach to teaching is rooted in Paulo Freire, bell hooks, Linda Barry, Fred Moten and Stefano Harney’s The Undercommons, and the simple, radical idea that if you spend 80% of acupuncture school sitting in a chair, you’ve taught people how to sit in a chair. In this conversation we talk about what it actually means to teach this medicine, flipped learning, backwards design, why safety and fun belong in every anatomy syllabus, and why the institutional status quo is often standing in the way of best educational practices. We also get into the financial realities of running a small business as a bodyworker, including debt, retirement, SEP IRAs, raising your rates every year, and what it means to be scared about your future in a profession that never teaches you to plan for it. This one is for practitioners, educators, students, and anyone who has ever sat in a chair for four years and wondered if there was a better way. Resources mentioned in this episode: Michael’s Work * Moving Mountain Institute (https://www.movingmountaininstitute.com/) * Sign up for Field Notes (https://www.movingmountaininstitute.com/blog) — Michael’s newsletter, worth every email! * Community Events and Anatomy Talks (https://www.movingmountaininstitute.com/education/community-events) * Gil Hedley (https://www.gilhedley.com/) — the best anatomy resource for bodyworkers and acupuncturists Financial Tools * The Thriving Acupuncturist Calculator (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EHrfY_I0mAKRe_mMr33Zq73EU19GbHVZ/edit?usp=share_link&ouid=113926416459779426550&rtpof=true&sd=true) — the spreadsheet Bex and Michael built together Books We Referenced * Cold Mountain Poems (https://penguinrandomhousehighereducation.com/book/?isbn=9781619022133) — Han-shan, translated by by Gary Snyder * Pedagogy of the Oppressed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed) — Paulo Freire * Teaching to Transgress (https://multcolib.overdrive.com/media/4056137) — bell hooks (Michael says start here before Freire) * Syllabus: Notes from an Accidental Professor (https://www.powells.com/book/syllabus-notes-from-an-accidental-professor-9781770461611) — Lynda Barry * The Undercommons (https://transversal.at/books/undercommons-en) — Fred Moten and Stefano Harney Workforce and Policy * Acupuncture Workforce Alliance (https://acupunctureworkforcealliance.org/) Get full access to Needling To Get To The Point at needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4)

6. 

   16 Aug 2026

   In Conversation with Jen Maiorana

   My guest today is Jen Maiorana, a second-year acupuncture student who’s already transferred through three different Chinese medicine schools trying to find solid ground. She’s got a background in environmental studies, business, and running her own wellness practice, and she spent the last few months trying to figure out something most students don’t even know is an option. So we’re gonna talk about that along with funding and mentorship. It’s a big compost pile out there, but flowers grow out of compost. Below, you’ll find some important links from our conversation today. You can watch the video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Y4BhJMD38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Y4BhJMD38) Find Jen Maiorana at her Linked In page (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jen-maiorana-18348a126/)here. You can find information on California’s Tutorial Program (https://www.acupuncture.ca.gov/ed_providers/tutorial.shtml) here. If you’re weighing whether to keep paying acupuncture school tuition right now, you might want to check out the program Jen talks about. It runs through the California Acupuncture Board (https://www.acupuncture.ca.gov/). Instead of enrolling in a school, you apprentice one-on-one with a licensed supervising acupuncturist who’s held their license in California for at least five years and has at least ten years of practice experience. The state requires a structured curriculum (2,250 hours of supervised clinical training plus 1,548 hours of theoretical and didactic coursework (https://www.law.cornell.edu/regulations/california/16-CCR-1399.425)) that comes to 3,798 hours total, completed over a minimum of four years, with a cap on how many hours can count per 12-month period so the program can’t be rushed. Application runs through the Acupuncture Board for a $1,000 fee, and once you’re approved and complete the hours, you sit for the same California state licensing exam as anyone graduating from an approved school. California law prohibits any tuition being paid to the tutor. That protects students from being charged twice, but it also means you’re responsible for finding your own supervisor and negotiating what you’ll offer in exchange for the training. Jen talks about admin support, scheduling, marketing, and even carpentry skills. It really has to do with your personal talents, since there’s no statewide matching service. Pine Street Foundation (https://www.pinestreetfoundation.org/education/caat) in the Bay Area is one of the longest-running tutorial programs in the state (supporting tutorials since the early 1980s). It’s not a shortcut, and it’s not for everyone, but if school tuition is what’s standing between you and this profession, it’s worth knowing this door exists. Other things we talked about in this conversation include: * Pine Street Foundation’s information page on the California Acupuncture Tutorial Program (https://www.pinestreetfoundation.org/education/caat). * NCBAHM Certification Handbook (https://ncbahm.org/wp-content/uploads/pdf/NCCAOM_Certification_Handbook_Jan_2024.pdf) that includes information on NCBAHM Route 4 pathway and the Frequently Asked Questions fact sheet (https://ncbahm.org/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Apprenticeship-Route-Elimination-Q-A_07-26-2022.pdf) about why NCBAHM eliminated the Route 3 apprenticeship pathway. * Michael McMahon and Moving Mountain Institute (https://www.movingmountaininstitute.com/). * Gil Hedley’s site (https://www.gilhedley.com/) where you can sign up for a membership to watch anatomical cadaver videos and earn continuing education credits. * Here is the website for Acupuncture Relief Project in Nepal (https://www.acupuncturereliefproject.org/) that has a news blog and more information as well as the program application. Thanks so much for listening! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

7. 

   19 May 2026

   The Treasure Chest: Dr. Tia Trivisonno

   Dr. Tia Trivisonno is a naturopathic physician and licensed acupuncturist who has been in practice for 15 years in Long Island, NY, a state where ND licensing still hasn't passed. She surfs and rides a cherry red Harley Sportster, both beautiful tools in what she calls the "Treasure Chest." Tia has figured out how to use that Treasure Chest and self-discovery to keep the lights on. This isn't through bypassing the hard stuff, but by using this as a collection of things to bring oneself back to center when the grief, the debt, and the weight of a profession under pressure start to feel really heavy. If you've been feeling the weight of this moment in our profession, Tia is exactly the kind of company you need. She's a solutionary out there riding the waves and the roads and she's bringing all of us along for the ride. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

8. 

   21 Apr 2026

   Nobody Wrote Down Pain

   Zachary Krebs came to acupuncture through love, a decade of Tai Chi, and a brain cyst that went undiagnosed by pretty much everyone he saw until he typed his symptoms into ChatGPT and got an answer in seconds. In this episode: what martial arts teaches you about the body that acupuncture school doesn't, what happened when he sat in a CEU class in severe neurological pain while practitioners took his pulse and nobody wrote down the word pain, and why he thinks pretty much all acupuncture is decent and you should be skeptical of exceptional claims. Zachary is the co-founder of Fire Rabbit Acupuncture in Oregon City, Oregon. He trained at POCA Tech, now the Oregon College of Community Acupuncture, and graduated in 2022 with no debt. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

9. 

   17 Apr 2026

   OAA Education Task Force Town Hall (video below)

   On April 11, 2026, the Oregon Association of Acupuncturists and Education Task Force held our first community town hall on the proposed Oregon administrative rule revision that would create a state-regulated, competency-based alternative pathway to acupuncture licensure. If you couldn’t make it, here’s what we covered: * Why the RISE Rule and AHEAD Framework put virtually every ACAHM-accredited program at risk of closure by 2028 * What a parallel, OMB-approved licensure pathway would actually look like and what it wouldn’t change (scope of practice, clinical hours, exam) * Where we are with NCBAHM on exam eligibility for state-pathway graduates * What we need from Oregon acupuncturists between now and our May 1st AAC submission deadline The full proposal goes to the Acupuncture Advisory Committee on June 5th. We want to hear from you before then, especially if you're an employer or know someone who is. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

10. 

    12 Apr 2026

    From Interpreter to Clinic Director

    This is available as a Videocast on Substack with captions. Some interviews you schedule around convenience. This one we scheduled around continents.Sushila Gurung lives and works above the clinic she runs in Bajrabarahi, Nepal, which means that when we finally found a time that worked for both of us, it was late at night for me in Portland and early in the morning for her, with a wifi connection that did its best and occasionally reminded us just how far apart we actually were. Sushila joined the Acupuncture Relief Project as a medical interpreter when she was 18 years old and she now works as the Clinical Director for Good Health Nepal, where acupuncturists work as primary care providers in a rural region with a catchment area of 150,000 people. In this conversation we talk about what it means to become a practitioner in a country where acupuncture isn't yet fully regulated, the education pathway that exists and the one that doesn't yet, what the COVID reopening really looked like from the inside, and what she wants practitioners everywhere to understand about this medicine and what it can do.You can find out more about the Acupuncture Relief Project. https://acupuncturereliefproject.org (https://acupuncturereliefproject.org/donate).And you can make a donation to support Sushila, Satyamohan and their team (https://acupuncturereliefproject.org/donate) at: https://acupuncturereliefproject.org/donate (https://acupuncturereliefproject.org/donate) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

11. 

    9 Apr 2026

    You Can Make Any Place Holy

    Felicía Desrosiers found acupuncture in Quito, Ecuador in the year 2000. She went on to attend POCA Tech in Portland, teach there, and found North Portland Community Acupuncture, a pop-up clinic in a bar that she made feel sacred every single day she opened it. She is now in Madrid, Spain, doing it all over again. In this episode: why she thinks acupuncture is an adaptogen for the medicine and for the people who practice it, what it actually takes to make a space feel holy, why a practitioner who knows ten points and shows up with intention can change someone's life. Also: a temescal in Mexico, a Scrabble word on a train, and why she thinks we should have acupuncture clinics everywhere the same way we have restaurants. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

12. 

    13 Mar 2026

    You Have to Spend Money to Make Money

    Danielle Reghi graduated from OCOM with $220,000 in student loan debt: a number she didn't borrow, but accumulated through compounding interest nobody explained to her. In 2021 she filed a Borrower's Defense application. Four and a half years later, she received full discharge of every loan under her name. In this episode, Danielle, owner of Zen Space Acupuncture in Portland and current president of the Oregon Association of Acupuncturists, talks about building a multi-location practice from $24,000 a year, what a realistic living wage looks like for an acupuncturist, and why she thinks the cost of acupuncture education is the single biggest threat to the profession's future. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

13. 

    4 Mar 2026

    The Horseman and the Abyss

    Matthew Bauer has been practicing acupuncture in Southern California since 1986. In this episode: why acupuncture research keeps underestimating the medicine, and what a debt-ridden new grad can actually do with that information, the four cornerstones of this profession and how they failed each other, and what it means when a patient says I wish I'd have known. Also: Making Acupuncture Pay. A good read. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

14. 

    21 Feb 2026

    Debt, Dogs, and the Medicine We Love Anyway

    Bex sits down with Debbie Yu, Doctor of Acupuncture and Chinese Herbal Medicine, owner of Little Si clinic in North Bend, WA, former Bastyr faculty, and creator of the Doggy Oracle Card deck (https://www.instagram.com/bibeknpawan/). They met in Nepal in 2015 doing rural primary care through the Acupuncture Relief Project — and a lot of what shaped both of them about this medicine happened there. In this episode: the real numbers behind Debbie's student debt ($70k for a doctorate she'd skip if she could do it over), why raising cash rates isn't as simple as it sounds when most of your patients are on insurance, the crossroads the profession is actually at, and what it felt like to finally, after twelve years, make a livable income. Also: dogs as medicine. Seriously. Honest, funny, and a little bittersweet. This one's for anyone who loves this medicine and is still figuring out how to make it work. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

15. 

    17 Feb 2026

    The Work Nobody Sees

    Kelly Ilseman has spent four years as the unpaid Research Committee Chair for the Oregon Acupuncture Association, doing the behind-the-scenes work that keeps our profession moving. We talk about what it takes to get insurance coverage, how to translate between East Asian medicine and biomedical language, and what integration into hospitals and the VA actually requires of us. Plus: the OAA is looking for someone to take over Kelly's role. Could that be you? This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

16. 

    10 Feb 2026

    Enterprise Building: A Rural Acupuncture Practice

    Terry owns Eagle Cap Wellness (https://www.eaglecapwellness.com/) in Enterprise, Oregon, a small town in the Wallowa Mountains near the Idaho border. She graduated from OCOM in 2013, went straight to Nepal with the Acupuncture Relief Project (https://acupuncturereliefproject.org/), got certified in Sports Medicine Acupuncture (https://sportsmedicineacupuncture.com/smac-program), and then in 2022 made what she calls an impulsive but necessary leap: moving from inner southeast Portland to a town where her old neighborhood probably had more people than the entire county. She bought the supplies from the departing acupuncturist, stepped into the space, and started seeing patients within weeks. What she didn’t anticipate was how much she didn’t know: that running a small business while carrying graduate school debt would make her nearly invisible to mortgage lenders. That she and her husband would end up living in a 24-foot travel trailer behind the clinic for eighteen months. That getting called for jury duty on a Thursday,her busiest day, would genuinely stress her out because there is no buffer, no FMLA, no unemployment. Just the constant low hum of what if. And yet her practice is full. Her patients refer their neighbors. The physical therapist at the local hospital sends people her way. She is, by most measures, exactly what a rural community needs and can’t easily find. This conversation covers what rural practice actually looks like on the ground: the seasonal rhythms of ranch life, the collaboration with PTs, the mortgage application that didn’t go through, and the gratitude list she and her husband keep on the wall of the clinic for the hard days. Also the deer that graze behind the building and the quail that live in the bush down the hill, because sometimes that’s what keeps you going. Terry is clear-eyed about the fragility of all of it. She’s also clear that she loves this medicine, and that when a patient comes back saying they felt amazing, it still makes her squeal. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com (https://needlingtogettothepoint.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

Reach and audience

Public platform figures. Ratings count people who left a rating, not total listeners.

Apple Podcasts (US)

5.0 / 5

5 ratings

Spotify

5.0 / 5

2 ratings

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Guest appearances

Books guests

Based on episode analysis; this does not confirm that the show is currently accepting guests.