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Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas

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by Tommy Thomas

120 episodes

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Dedicated to equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders. This will be accomplished by interviewing people whose business, nonprofit and life experiences might be valuable on an emerging leader. When we use the term leader, we are referring to organizational and Board leadership.

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October 1, 2024

Lessons in Resilience, Leadership, and Teamwork - Deneé Barracato’s Story (Part 2)

[00:00:30] Tommy Thomas: We're continuing the conversation we began last week with Deneé’ Barracato, the Deputy Director of Athletics for Operations and Capital Projects at Northwestern University. Deneé reflects on her transition from a professional basketball player to a senior leader in higher ed athletic administration. She also shares personal reflections on balancing her professional role with her responsibilities as a spouse and a mother. This is a must listen for anyone navigating the complexities of leadership. [00:01:06] Tommy Thomas: Let's move away from your basketball career and sooner or later you decide that was a chapter in your life that was closed and you moved into higher education administration. Take me back to your first management job when you first led a group of people. What do you remember about that? [00:01:27] Deneé Barracato: Wow. Okay. So, I remember having the opportunity to lead a group of Graduate Assistants. And when I first started at Adelphi University, my Athletic Director took a chance on me once I decided to move into administration and move away from professional basketball and I had the opportunity to work with these talented young adults who just wanted to continue their career and their education. And as there were three graduate assistants that I had an opportunity to work with, and then a host of different student workers and staff that will work our games. And that was at the division two level. And I remember just being so in awe of their work ethic, right? So, I was a Division 1 women's basketball player. There were some perks that came along with that, whether it was gear or whether it was a scholarship, whether it was charter bus traveling or flights or those sorts of things. Pregame meals, but starting out at the division two level, just seeing their love, pure love for the sport. [00:02:33] Deneé Barracato: The way that they fundraise for things that weren't just given to them. And then seeing them work on top of having to be a student athlete, I was just really put to shame. I remember, and then even the grad assistants that I had an opportunity to oversee, I had one traveling all the way from Brooklyn, New York to Long Island, and she would do that on a daily basis. She would come in early, she would go to her classes, she would come into the office afterwards, she would work long hours, work our games ,organize and do all the things that I asked of her. And then she would get on the train later at night, go back to her home and then come back the next day and do it all over again. [00:03:15] Deneé Barracato: And for me, I was just like, oh, my goodness. I thought I had some work ethic. And then I had an opportunity to work with them and to lead them and to guide them. And I think we learned from each other. And I was younger then, I think I was about 24. And I was just like, holy smokes, I just missed out. I thought that I had a pretty good work ethic and no one really had to motivate me. I was motivated. But then you see this caliber of student and student athlete that really motivated me. Inspired me to just be better for them. Being a better leader, being a better administrator, trying to communicate with them effectively so that way we were efficient with our time, and they felt like they were getting something out of their experience. So, for me, that experience with them was probably more of an educational opportunity for me than anything else. And we still keep in touch to this day. I really appreciate how they helped me grow into a professional. [00:04:14] Tommy Thomas: In his book, It's How You Play the Game: The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith, David Chadwick, one of his ball players wrote “the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball, leadership, and society”. When you think about that from a macro perspective, how does that resonate with you? [00:04:37] Deneé Barracato: Yeah, I spoke about it before. Team is critical to your success especially when you're playing in a team sport environment or when you're working in an office setting with a group of individuals that have a common goal. Whatever that goal is, working together collaboratively and understanding that goal and doing it intentionally. Understanding everyone's differences, inviting their gifts to the table and just embracing that with intentionality through relationships is so very critical. So, I couldn't agree with Dean Smith more. It's attributed to the success that he had at Chapel Hill over the years. And so, I would agree with him. The concept of team is so important and sometimes we have to remind ourselves as administrators that they’re watching. [00:05:24] Deneé Barracato: Individuals are watching that will then translate to what they do in a group setting on their team. And so, we have to be very cognizant of that on a daily basis that we're embodying the things that we teach them and the things that we reiterate and the things that really, hopefully they will take with them beyond just college athletics and beyond their team into society and into their community post, higher education. I think, certainly his comment was very impactful and important because without people around you, and sometimes we talk about that as a village, without a village around you helping you to be successful. It'll be really difficult. Rome wasn't built in a day. But you need a team to help build it over time. And so I think, certainly that's something that I think about with a team, anything's possible. You have to do it with intentionality and understanding that everyone comes with all different shapes and sizes, but different gifts as well that can help you be successful. [00:06:31] Tommy Thomas: If I were to come to one of your team meetings next week, and maybe after a few minutes we convince you to leave the room, I asked them two questions. I asked them, what was the most rewarding thing about working with and for Deneé, what would they say? And if I ask them what was the most challenging thing about being on your team, what would they say? [00:06:54] Deneé Barracato: I'll start with the latter. The most challenging thing I think that they'll say is that I'm not around enough. That if I was around, if I was able to say hello every single day it would be more impactful, right? My leadership would be more impactful and, oftentimes I challenge myself daily to do that. I just find it really difficult to do my job at a high level with all the things that I'm responsible for while still finding my way through two campuses. Two different sides, a mile away, and going through each of the buildings. And so that's something that I know over the course of my time here and Northwestern and even some of my other stops along the way that I probably need to improve on. So that's the one thing I think that they'll say is we don't see her as much as we’d like but when she is around, I try to be encouraging. I try to thank them for their good work and all their efforts. And then I would say the most impactful thing would be, I'm hoping that they would say my energy. [00:08:01] Deneé Barracato: The support that I give them. I always try to find ways in which we can thank them for their hard work, for their time, their diligence or due diligence and everything that they do, their intentionality. Because currently in the unit that I oversee is operations, right? So, everything from events and facilities and equipment and recreation and murals. The way I describe it to them is that we're the engine in the car, and unless that engine starts or works, the car will just sit there looking pretty, but it won't move from zero to 50 or 200. And so, I encourage them in that way that the engine works really hard, but without the engine, the whole team likely won't be successful. So, I think that the thing that I try to remind them is that they're valued and that they're important. And I try to bring energy, I always talk about Let's Go Cats. We're doing this together. Thank you for your time. And I hope that goes a long way. But I certainly know as a leader, I have a lot of things to work on. [00:09:03] Deneé Barracato: And when I feel like I have it figured out, I might as well just retire. So, I'm not ready. I'm not close to retirement. So, I would say that I still have a lot to learn to get better at and more to give back to our team. But we also talk about teamwork and being great teammates and being communicative as well. So hopefully those are the things that they might say. +++++++++++ [00:09:22] Tommy Thomas: I remember from the conversation you had with Ty, y'all talked about the current building project is probably not a strong enough word to say what's going on at Northwestern right now, but take us into that and just the ambitious nature of such an endeavor. Give us a little background of that. [00:09:40] Deneé Barracato: Yeah, I'll give credit to a lot of my colleagues. A lot of our leaders on campus and our board of trustee members, our president who really stood behind what our head football coach wanted to see in terms of the momentum of the season that we finished last year in Las Vegas, when we played in the Las Vegas Bowl against Utah, and we won. It was a challenging year which started very tumultuously. And with our transition of Head Coaches and we went into the season after I think the year before we were either three and nine or one 11, I apologize. I can't remember, but it wasn't a successful season the year before. And we had high hopes for that upcoming season, but then we ran into this transition with our head coaches and it was a difficult time for our team. It was something that was well documented in the national realm. And so, what we wanted to do is we wanted to really galvanize our team and really get them to focus on why they came to Northwestern. Why that season was so important, not because they wanted to prove something to anyone else, but to themselves and what they were there to do and really embracing and coming together as a unit. And they did do that. They did that very well. Before I talked about being in awe of student athletes and our student athletes here in Northwestern are not behind. They are so very impressive and our coaching staff as well. So, our Head Coach really took that to heart and he really brought them through a very difficult season to a very successful outcome. We ended the year eight and five and we wanted to continue that momentum into this season finishing eight and five. And it would have been challenging to do that off campus, even though we had started to investigate different venues that we could potentially play in the Chicagoland areas, some on the outskirts, but nothing, as is the same as playing at home and in front of your students, fans, faculty, staff, those family members that want to come and support you. [00:11:50] Deneé Barracato: And it would have been really difficult if you took that show on the road every single week and to different venues. And for those of you that don't know, we were constructing a brand-new football stadium. And we're in a two-year period of construction. And so, for that reason, we were without a home. So, we had to figure out okay, whether or not we were going to take the show on the road or whether there was an opportunity for us to play at home. And so initially when the idea came to us from our former head coach and some of our board of trustee members. It was something that we had to look into because we, what we didn't want to do is we want us to support our team, but we also didn't want to impact some of the other Olympic sports that utilize the same footprint. [00:12:31] Deneé Barracato: And so, we wanted to ensure that was something that we could do. And through some investigation, intentionality, some collaboration and people that were pushing and all the right places, we ended up with this unbelievable lakeside venue that holds around 12,000 people. And we're slated to open this Saturday against Miami of Ohio at 2:30 PM on BTN. And so, we're just excited. It was something that came together in a matter of, wow, 70 plus days. We had a plan and then we pivoted and, now we're really excited that we're able to give our student athletes a home field advantage an opportunity to have momentum leading into this season, coming off of an incredible season last year, giving our students an opportunity to see them on campus and not have to travel far. And I would say the same thing with our faculty and staff and our coaches and the family members that support our student athletes as well, that want to come and see their sons, participate in the sport they've invested themselves into, it's certainly been an endeavor. We worked collaboratively in production, which is a company that helped put together this temporary facility and then also worked with Nations Group, who helped manage the project for us, as with something like this. [00:13:49] Deneé Barracato: There's so many different moving pieces, and we had a host of others on campus across campus, centrally and within our department that really took this seriously. And as a result, I think you'll see a beautiful lakeside facility on Saturday and then throughout the next four games after that. And then we'll culminate at Wrigley field for our last two games. Yeah, it was certainly an undertaking, but the reason is because we really wanted to give our football program an opportunity to be successful, not just last year, but leading into this year and then the following year, and we found a way to do that. As we've been talking about throughout this whole podcast, we did it with a team that brought so many different talents, so many different areas of expertise and we all worked together collaboratively to do this in a very great way. And so, I'm just proud of being one member of that team that really put it all together. [00:14:44] Tommy Thomas: At what point in your life did you begin to get comfortable in your leadership skin? [00:14:52] Deneé Barracato: Oh, I think that's an evolving thing for me. I always challenge myself to continue to be a better leader not just to be a manager, but someone that can invoke some inspiration, I think. I even work at it at home with my own children, inspiring them to be, the best that they can be at school with their extracurricular activities, whether it's an instrument or whether it's in sport or whether it's a sibling or mother to my children and I always think about well, how can I be a better mother? How could I be a better administrator? How could I be a better colleague? How could I be a better mentor? And so, I don't know that there's been one moment where I felt like I've, okay, I've done it. I think that for me it's been an area that I've been very conscious about wanting to be better for those around me. And one that I really asked the Lord for guidance and help on, right? Every day I say, I pray for wisdom and an opportunity to be better for those around me. And so, I don't know that I've gotten there yet. I aspire to be as good as some other leaders that we've seen, but I'm still a work in progress. [00:16:00] Deneé Barracato: So, we'll see when I'm ready to retire or what they say about me in the books at some point if I do make it there, but certainly a never evolving aspiration that I have with myself. [00:16:13] Tommy Thomas: When you came to Northwestern, you obviously had to evaluate the job or the situation they offered you. At this point in your life, knowing yourself as well as you do now, what do you look for in a leadership opportunity? What makes a good fit for you? [00:16:31] Deneé Barracato: At this point in my life unfortunately, I cannot only think about myself. I often think about my children, what's a great fit for them right now. My children are 14, soon to be 11 and 9. And, they're growing, and they have their own friends now. They have their own comfort levels. So, when making a decision, I always keep them in mind, certainly my husband, we never make decisions unaligned. And we also, we always try to come together and talk about what's in the best interest of our family unit. And so there might be opportunities where I think might be a good fit for me based on my background or where I've been successful and what positions might be of comfort to me. But I always try to be intentional about making those decisions. If I did have an opportunity with my family in mind first and foremost, and then, I try not to make any decisions without praying about it and without asking for guidance and wisdom and direction and where the Lord will have me even if I think it's a perfect fit or my husband or my family thinks it's a perfect fit. It might not be. [00:17:40] Deneé Barracato: Over the last five years, I've loved my time at Northwestern and certainly we've gone through many challenges just like everyone else has across the country. And I've always found peace here to a certain extent where; okay, this is where I'm supposed to be for one reason or another. And, as sometimes what you believe is good for you may not be or what you think may not be good for you is where the Lord wants you. I always make any decision based on prayer first and guidance from the Lord, but also with my family in mind. [00:18:16] Tommy Thomas: Let's talk about authenticity for a minute. Oscar Wilde said, be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. St. Catherine of Siena put it, be who God meant for you to be and you'll set the world on fire. What lessons have you learned about authenticity over the years? [00:18:37] Deneé Barracato: It's important to be yourself while evolving and hopefully growing. In your own skin, being open to having a growth mindset, one that you're not just stubborn about just because of how you were raised or, what was instilled in you, I think sometimes as people that do have faith, we're short sighted and the fact that maybe not, and not everyone thinks the same way. And hopefully carrying yourself in a way where people see you as an advocate and as a light instead of someone that they're afraid to come to or someone that you might judge them or someone that may not understand is really important to me. And so just being authentically me, who I am, I'm a Hispanic woman from the city of New York then moved to the suburbs of New York that loves sports, loves basketball, but also loves being a mom. [00:19:38] Deneé Barracato: I think it's really important, but also being open to others that might not have walked that same journey or even those that might not know the Lord or might not have embraced that side of their spirituality and really helping them understand that my job here on earth is one to be a great person to them, one that's to love them and one that will be there to support them through their life and through their journey. And that's so very important to me because I think oftentimes, we may not be seen as advocates in that realm. And so, it's important to be an advocate for all the things that I described. Being a woman of color, being a woman of faith, all those different types of things, but also being an advocate to others that might not have walked that same path and maybe don't understand. So, my job is always to try and walk in the light, be a reflection of the Lord and let people know that I'm authentically me. I'm going to have my New York accent. I'm going to represent the Latino community and represent the Lord when I have the opportunity. But also embrace people that are different and let them know that I love them despite their differences, and I want them to love me the same way. [00:20:52] Deneé Barracato: And so that's my goal. And then that's what I really hold myself to that standard. ++++++++++++ [00:20:59] Tommy Thomas: You've had to hire a lot of people in your life and probably you've had to fire one or two, maybe not too many, but when you go into the hiring mode, what are you looking for at the cabinet level? At your level, what are you looking for in a person? [00:21:15] Deneé Barracato: I'm looking for someone who has the ability to work within a team setting, someone that has great work ethic, someone that has potential, someone that's eager. A lot of times people talk about, oh this person doesn't have experience. This person doesn't have this. This person doesn't have all these credentials on their resume. And depending on the job, sometimes you do need that. But in other cases, I think it's important to give people an opportunity. I think those are the things that you as a leader or as an administrator can teach them on the job, but without great work ethic, without a great vigor for the job, for life, someone that's positive, someone that's willing to learn, someone that's excited about the job. Those things are really hard to invoke in someone. [00:22:02] Deneé Barracato: You really have to have that ambition, that work ethic. Those are some things that you can't teach. You can't teach drive. You can't teach optimism. You can't teach an interest to learn. And so those things for me are really important. When I interviewed someone, just someone that is truly interested in the job, truly interested in the organization that they're applying for, someone that's excited about the opportunity, someone that's grateful for the opportunity and someone that's willing to work really hard within the role that they're applying for. And that's one of the first things that I look for because I can't teach that. Excuse me. So just coming into a role once they have that, they've got me hooked. And now I can focus on your credentials, your educational background, your experiences, and all the things that I think that they would bring to the position that would make them successful. But unless they have those initial things, for me, it tends to be a little bit more difficult to get them beyond that point. [00:23:11] Tommy Thomas: So you mentioned earlier in our conversation, you use the phrase, take a chance and the like when you decided to move from the ranks of the professional athletics and administration somebody took a chance on you. And I certainly remember when I was much younger people took a chance on me. Have you had a situation where you took a chance on somebody and it didn't work out? And if so, how did y'all reconcile that? [00:23:42] Deneé Barracato: I would say, yes, that has happened. I think the way that I approached it was with patience, giving them an opportunity to learn from the things that I would bring to their attention. An opportunity to reflect on some of the things that I may have wanted them to improve on. And not just looking at one isolated incident, but also helping them through that process and at a certain point if they're not willing to make those corrections or improve the things that we've set out for them. And that could even be a performance plan or anything that I would want them to do in order to be successful would be really difficult for us to move forward because like I mentioned before, unless you're curious, unless you're motivated, unless you're willing to learn and grow in whatever position you're in, it's really going to be hard for you to advance and specifically with individuals that you take the time to help grow and to help motivate to the next phase of their life or their career. [00:25:06] Deneé Barracato: If they're unwilling to make those adjustments, then, at that point, it becomes very difficult. So for me, I tend to just give a little bit more, because I often believe that everyone deserves, not just one chance, but, several opportunities to grow from their experiences and make some self-corrections. But at some point, there have been instances where, unfortunately I haven't been able to maintain them within the environment that I am in because at that point, it becomes an opportunity for that to then rub off on some of the other staff members and culture is really important. And without bringing on a detriment to the team, sometimes you just then need to step away. And I would say I even saw that in my own career now, my own life as a senior in college, when I had to take a step away from the team, because at that point I didn't believe that I was productive for them. I didn't believe that I was going to be the best version of myself in order for the team to be successful. So, I took a step back and sometimes that happens in life and whether it's professionally or personally. [00:26:21] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, let's bring this thing to a close. Maybe get a little introspective. How have you changed in the last five years? [00:26:30] Deneé Barracato: How have I changed? I've changed in the way that I've looked at life. I think COVID taught us a really big lesson in that, and that you can do more with different resources, with different ways of interacting with people, like we talked about at the beginning of this call. I don't know if this platform was available to us, that you and I, Tommy would even be speaking. And so, we learned a lot about how technology can impact relationships and can flourish them in a very different way than we even imagined. And so as a professional over the last five years, just being more innovative in the way that I've communicated. And the way that I've maintained relationships certainly as a mother, just be more in tune to my children as they grow the differences and, in their life, and their interests and being present, having to sit down and listen to my daughter be interested in things that I may not be interested in. [00:27:38] Deneé Barracato: And at that point in life, I have to say it's not about you, it's about her, it's about her life, it's about her, what's interesting to her and just being there as a listener and as someone that can guide her and give her advice or answer any questions that she might have. So, I would say as a mother growing into someone that can help her children navigate through life not through my lens, but through theirs. And I would also say, through this ever-changing landscape at Northwestern, we're hopefully going to be appointing a new Vice President - Director of Athletics soon here. And through some permanent positions and interim, it's going to be my seventh leader in a five-year period. And so, learning how to adjust and be flexible to new leadership, and then demonstrating that flexibility to the team and the staff, and keeping them abreast and communicating with them on new expectations or different expectations and how we can pivot and navigate has certainly helped me professionally. [00:28:35] Deneé Barracato: It's been challenging because every leader maybe has a different style, maybe has different expectations, but growing into that and having patience and knowing that my team is relying on me for that continuity in order for them to be successful. So, I would say patience, thoughtfulness, and in terms of how I interact with not only my daughter and my children, but also those around me. And then, utilizing technology to maintain relationships and build upon them and really grow in that space that five years ago wasn't very familiar to any of us, but also critical in this space that we're all navigating today. [00:29:30] Tommy Thomas: Final question. If you could tell a younger version of yourself something. What would you tell her? [00:29:40] Deneé Barracato: I would tell her continue to believe in yourself, continue to trust in the Lord, continue to be curious, continue to embrace life and be proud of your accomplishments, but know that you've done them and accomplished those things with so many people behind you and then, continue to embrace those individuals that have come into your life that have made you better. Rely on them and appreciate them and love them the way the Lord loves you. And, as long as you have those things at the forefront of your mind, hopefully you will inherit what the Lord says that you will inherit at the end of the day. But knowing that you've done it with peace and you can go to sleep at night, knowing that you've tried your best and you've given your best at life and given back to those that are around you and hopefully that's enough and people appreciate that. [00:30:48] Deneé Barracato: But my goal in life is always to be a reflection of the Lord and try to do that to the best of my advantage. And if I can't, if I'm not doing it the right way, Lord, please convict me, please correct me. And I would say that to my younger self is, hey, you're not going to do this alone. Believe in yourself but know that you have a responsibility to be a reflection of the Lord. And that's a big thing to ask, but it's something that you can do. So that's what I think. That's what I would say. [00:31:19] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast. If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable. Links and Resources <a href="https://www.jobfitmatters.com/">JobfitMatters Website</a> <a href= "https://www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast">NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas</a> <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Search-Tommy-Thomas/dp/0978762096">The Perfect Search</a> - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO <a href= "https://nusports.com/staff-directory/dene-barracato/6507">Deneé Barracato Bio</a> <a href= "https://nusports.com/news/2020/5/14/barracato-named-to-ncaa-womens-basketball-committee"> Barracato named to NCAA Women’s Basketball Committee</a> <a href= "https://venuesnow.com/women-of-live-2023-Dene%C3%A9-barracato/">Women of Live 2023 – Deneé Barracato</a> Connect <a href= "mailto:tthomas@jobfitmatters.com">tthomas@jobfitmatters.com</a> <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/tommywthomas/">Follow Tommy on LinkedIn</a> <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/dene%C3%A9-barracato-9332407/">Follow Deneé on LinkedIn</a> Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: <a href= "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/next-gen-nonprofit-leadership-with-tommy-thomas/id1568190205"> Apple Podcasts</a> | <a href= "https://open.spotify.com/show/2ktzuRAybk5x7CjWUOISCv?si=s0jSaTL6SVue1gJDmoG_FQ"> Spotify</a>

September 24, 2024

Lessons in Resilience, Leadership, and Teamwork - Deneé Barracato’s Story

[00:00:30] Deneé Barracato: Kelly Watts was a former assistant coach at several different institutions before she ended up at Hofstra. And she was a woman of color that was just so vibrant. She loved sports. She loved people. She loved the Lord. And every time I was around her, I just felt this spirit of joy. And she was just always so fun to be around, and she put things in perspective for me at a very impressionable age in my life as a young adult, where she always reminded me to keep the Lord first. Trials and tribulations are going to come, and adversity is going to come, but you need to stay focused and centered, and she really poured her optimism into me and I appreciated that. And then she was actually great at basketball. So, she taught me as a guard the skills that I needed to be successful on the next level. ++++++++++++ [00:01:19] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Deneé Barracato. She's the Deputy Director of Athletics for Operations and Capital Projects at Northwestern University. Her career path to Northwestern has taken her to leadership roles at York College, Queens College, and Adelphi University. She did a stint in Indianapolis with NCAA as the Associate Director of Division I Women's Basketball, and she even did a stint at Madison Square Garden's Company as Director of Strategy, where she worked with the Knicks, the Rangers, and the New York Liberty teams to further advance the marketing and business objective of the Madison Square Garden business partners. [00:02:00] Tommy Thomas: She took her undergraduate degree from Hofstra University, where she was a four-year basketball letter winner. As a student athlete at Hofstra, she led the nation in steals for women's Division I basketball and earned America East All Conference honors. Following graduation, she played professionally in the Women's Professional League in Puerto Rico for the Saints of St. Juan, as well as with the National Women's Basketball League as a member of the Atlanta Justice. In addition to her undergraduate degree from Hofstra, she earned a master's degree in exercise science and sports management from Adelphi. She's married to Michael, and they have three children, Grace, MJ, and Mia. [00:02:41] Tommy Thomas: Deneé, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:02:45] Deneé Barracato: Thank you for having me, Tommy. I'm humbled. It's a pleasure to be here with you all just to talk about sports and my journey thus far. [00:02:54] Tommy Thomas: Thank you. My guests sometimes want to know where I find all these people. Ty Brown has a podcast on leadership, and I listened to it. And I heard Deneé about maybe two months ago, three months ago. And I thought this is somebody I would love to have as a guest. You're so gracious to carve out some time for us in the midst of what I know is a busy prelude to your intercollegiate athletics this year. [00:03:19] Tommy Thomas: But before we dive too deep into sports or your current role, take me back to your childhood and tell me what was it like growing up? [00:03:29] Deneé Barracato: Oh, wow. Growing up, I had a very active childhood. I was a tomboy at heart. I loved activity. I loved sports. I wouldn't say competitively, but just out in the park, a city kid originally from the Bronx, and my parents are from the city as well. First generation here in the United States, although Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States, but they were born there and moved here at a young age, and then raised us in New York city. And later we moved out to Hempstead, Long Island where I went undergrad near Hofstra. I was a very active kid, loved life, and loved sports. And when I was in middle school, I was introduced to women's basketball or just basketball in general, from an organized standpoint. And I remember I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the idea of playing something that was pretty cool at the time. And then I realized that I was actually decent at it. [00:04:32] Deneé Barracato: And it was interesting because I have two sisters, two older sisters. I'm the youngest of three. And my father ended up coaching the middle school team, and we were all on it. And I remember my older sister, Damaris, she was actually pretty good. She played at a junior college. And then my older sister, she just wanted nothing to do with it. She didn't like the physical interaction. And as I mentioned, I embraced it. My father encouraged me to continue to play, and the rest is history. I then transitioned to a public school and started getting engaged in summer basketball, AAU later in my high school career and ended up at Hofstra university. [00:05:17] Deneé Barracato: So, I would say my family, certainly my parents both being educators, but both being Hispanics growing up in the city, tried to instill in us work ethic, education, and just avenues to further my educational career. And basketball was one of those endeavors that helped me do that. And so now in my career, I can say that I will be forever indebted to basketball, but also this industry for giving me so much. And so that's why I do what I do to give back to potential student athletes and young adults that one day want to take advantage of that opportunity to do something very similar to myself. Yeah, so that's my childhood in a nutshell but one that I'm very proud of. [00:06:01] Tommy Thomas: So, when you were in high school, what kind of career aspirations did a young 15-year-old have? [00:06:08] Deneé Barracato: I have to be honest with you. I was so enamored with the sport of basketball. I was so tunnel visioned. I was determined to play Division I Women's Basketball. I didn't even know what that meant at the time. I just wanted to play at the highest level, wherever it was. And I worked tirelessly to ensure that happened, whether that was working out two days on my own as a 15, 16-year-old doing whatever I had to do, because I really came on to the AAU summer league basketball scene pretty late. [00:06:39] Deneé Barracato: My parents really didn't know the first thing about college scholarships and what sports can actually bring to an aspiring, young individual like me wanting to play on the next level. I don't know that they fully understood that there could be possibilities to getting a full scholarship that would allow me to be educated at no cost. And so once my parents learned that, then we fast forward through everything. So, my main focus was maintaining my grades so that way I can then play Division I Women’s Basketball. And then from there, obviously, the sky's the limit with potentially playing overseas. [00:07:16] Deneé Barracato: At the time when I first started, I think it was my freshman year. I don't know that the WNBA was even a thing. I don't know that it became a thing until my senior year. Back when I was 15, 16, that was my focus and I'm a bit taken back because if that is my daughter's focus at 15, 16, then I think we're going to have a different conversation. But certainly, it was one that I was really enamored with. And I had to be honest with you, even my relationship with the Lord probably wasn't first and foremost, the way it probably should have been back then. And it's later in life that I realized that there's more to life than just basketball, sports, and my own personal ambitions. And we could talk about that a little bit more, but that was what was going through my mind back then. ++++++++++++++++ [00:08:00] Tommy Thomas: What is something that people are usually surprised to learn about you? [00:08:06] Deneé Barracato: Oh, that I actually have three children. Every time I share with them that I'm married with three children and I'm closer to 50 than I am to 40 they really get surprised. And I guess that's a compliment in a lot of ways, but one that hopefully I balance really well. At work, I work really hard and I'm hoping that my children will see that work ethic in me, but at the same time sometimes that comes back to impact the amount of time that I do spend at home. [00:08:33] Deneé Barracato: Because they see me so often, whether it's at work or at conferences which is where you heard Ty Brown's podcast, because I was at the NACDA conference and convention. Sometimes they don't realize that I actually have a family at home that's waiting for me, that depends on me. Obviously along with my husband, but yeah, I think that's something that they're surprised about. And even then, I even played professionally at the next level beyond just Hofstra University. And that was a wonderful experience too. And I think the last thing that might surprise them that I probably don't talk about as often as I should is my father is a pastor. And so, I was raised in the Word and although I didn't always walk in faith, it was instilled in me and that verse that talks about raising your children in the ways of the Lord and they shall not depart and those teachings. I think my life is evidence of that. And I'm hoping that I can certainly do the same with my children. [00:09:25] Tommy Thomas: Part of this sub theme I've got going here is the coaches in my life. And I've interviewed six or seven people like you who played intercollegiate sports. And we talked about things they learn from sports and things they learn from the coaches in their lives. So, thinking back, which coach do you think got the most out of you? [00:09:46] Deneé Barracato: Yeah, I've often talked about her. Her name is Kelly Watts, and she was a former assistant coach at several different institutions, Temple, I think she was at Rutgers for a little bit before she ended up at Hofstra. And she was just a woman of color that was just so vibrant. She loves sports. She loved people. She loved the Lord. And every time I was around her, I just felt this spirit of joy. And she was just always so fun to be around, and she put things in perspective for me at a very impressionable age in my life as a young adult, where she always reminded me to keep the Lord first. Trials and tribulations are going to come, and adversity is going to come, but you need to stay focused and centered, and she really poured her optimism into me, and I appreciated that. And so, she was one. And then she was actually great at basketball. So, she taught me as a guard the skills that I needed to be successful on the next level. [00:10:44] Deneé Barracato: And we still stay in touch to this day. I've been around her parents, or her mom and her sister. And she's always someone that I admire and that I often seek advice from, and, again, she was probably the most impactful person that was from a women's basketball perspective, but also Jay Wright, who was the men's basketball coach. She's a hall of fame coach, many people remember him from his days at Villanova and now CBS, but he was actually the head men's basketball coach at Hofstra university, my entire four-year career there. And we've just stayed in touch since then. He's been a mentor as well. [00:11:21] Deneé Barracato: Someone that I can pick up the phone and call. And we talk about different things going on in the industry right now. And I often pick his brain, but also brag about him and, back when I was at Hofstra on my off days, when the men's basketball team was traveling and we were home, I would help babysit his children. And I knew Patty, his wife, and now his children are grown. They're adults and so very successful, but he's someone else that I admired just the way he carried himself, how he invoked a championship mindset with his players and how he carried himself was just top notch and bar. [00:11:56] Tommy Thomas: Tell me about the best athletic team you were ever on and what made it the best athletic team. [00:12:05] Deneé Barracato: That's a good question. I would say my experience with the National Women's Basketball League. I was drafted in the fifth round and that was a league that started when the ABL folded. And so, the WMU was there. The ABL had just folded. That would be the CBA to the NBA. And they started this league because there were certain WNBA players that maybe didn’t want to go back overseas during their off season, but still wanted to maintain their conditioning and just play competitively. So, they started this league, and I got drafted in the fifth round to the Atlanta Justice team. And I moved over there to play for a season and I just met incredible athletes, incredible humans: friends that I have to this day, friends that helped me through my wedding and playing at that top level, playing with some of the best players in the country. And Rebecca Lobo, the Miller twins. And I think maybe Tina Thompson also played in that league. There were just so many that I admired as a basketball player leading up. And obviously now they’re household names, when we talk about women's basketball. I really enjoyed my time playing at that level and playing here in the States, in Atlanta. And so, I would say that would be my most impactful team. [00:13:25] Tommy Thomas: So how did basketball change for you between high school, college and the pros? What were the transitions? [00:13:37] Deneé Barracato: I think for me, it was maturity. When I was younger, I was still tunnel visioned, very selfish and my thought process, having this ambition to play and do well for me. That I forgot the team component. I forgot the humanity component. I forgot, that, hey, I know as a woman of color, I have to fight to really get the positioning that I need, really prove myself beyond many other individuals that were in front of me. Through maturity and through grace and patience, learning how to be a great teammate was something that I saw grow in me, and I can say that now as an adult, as a mother raising my children from high school to then college and then collegiate or professional sports just understanding that being a great teammate should be your first focus. [00:14:31] Deneé Barracato: Because if you can support your teammate, if you can have a like mindset, if you can be supportive of your coaches if you can understand what it is to go through adversity with your team, but go through positive moments with your team, like winning and doing it together as a collective unit, you're going to go that much further than if you're doing it on your own. And, I think over the years, I learned that it is so critical in any environment, not only playing on a sports team, but also in the office environment or in society or in your home, right? Instilling those things into your family members and your teachers, and even as a spouse. Knowing that we have to be one unit, and we have to be a team. And sometimes that takes compromise and all those things. And so, over the years, I think that I learned that through tough experiences and teachable moments that helped me be a better person, teammate, and partner to all those that are in my life. [00:15:31] Tommy Thomas: You referenced the lady that was such a strong influence in your college career, at what point did you realize that she might be teaching you something other than basketball? [00:15:42] Deneé Barracato: Oh, that's a good question. She had such an infectious personality that it is a good question because you can see the light and the energy in her, but it wasn't until one day we were talking about her time in Long Island. At some point she lived in Long Island and we were just talking and I think I may have shared with her that I had family out in some part of Suffolk County in Long Island and she mentioned to me that the church she was going to was Upper Room and she really loved that part of Long Island and that kind of led me into a different conversation with her about that part of her life. [00:16:19] Deneé Barracato: And then seeing how she was able to marry the two. Her love for basketball and her love for the Lord. And there was nothing to be ashamed about, but there was a balance that you can have with both and do it so very well. And to see her do it at such a high level really intrigued me and really brought me back to things that I was taught and instilled as a young little girl with my parents. I think it happened organically through just conversation as any coach and player should have that dialogue, not just transactional on the basketball court, but really developing that relationship off the court. And I think through that interaction, we just started talking about life and it just made it all the more special to me in terms of that relationship. [00:17:08] Tommy Thomas: No matter how hard and dedicated you are to something; failure is always an option. So, what did you learn from team sports about failure that you brought into your career? [00:17:20] Deneé Barracato: Oh, wow. I learned to again, be patient and know that growth is critical in life. Some of the student athletes that I speak to now are just curious or, if I have a moment to spend with them, they learn that as a senior, I actually ended up waiting for four games because I was going through, now we talk about mental health and that being such a critical component to student athletes. [00:17:48] Deneé Barracato: And back then we didn't know what that was. We were thinking maybe that was depression or whatever the case may be. But my senior year, coming off of a very successful junior year, I ended up getting injured in my junior year and ended up having surgery that delayed my recovery leading into my senior year, which was for me supposed to be the pinnacle because that's when the WNBA was coming out and, to be quite honest with you, was I good enough to be in the WNBA? I don't know, it's still a college girl's dream to play on the next level. And some nuances happened within that year because of my surgery, and I didn't end up starting and that kind of impacted my psyche going into that season. And I just, for whatever reason, just didn't recover. [00:18:32] Deneé Barracato: And I couldn't get over the fact that I wasn't starting, and I wasn't going to be, in my mind, as impactful. And I couldn't just sit back and say, you know what, some of my other teammates were sitting behind me for three years when I was starting. And now it's my opportunity to sit behind them and cheer them on and encourage them and give them an opportunity to play. And so throughout that time just learning how to overcome adversity, and I mentioned before, just maturing through that process, being a great teammate, thinking of others before thinking of myself and understanding that you can still be successful. Perhaps not in the way that you envisioned, but you can still find a way back while still being supportive of teammates, while still being supportive of those around you, and improving yourself and getting back to what you believe you can actually accomplish. [00:19:28] Deneé Barracato: And so, for me, that maturity in that moment of time led me to then come back to the team, apologize and really find my way back to a team and a sport that had given me so much. And was I really going to give all that up because of my own selfish thoughts? And maybe there was some validity at that time in my life, but I think now I would have approached it very differently and taken the time to take a step back and be reflective and be a great teammate and really find ways to fill that void with support, with encouragement, with cheering, and all the things that we teach our young adults now to do. And so I use that story to share with some of our student athletes when they're in a slump or when their things aren't going their way, just to share with them that there is light at the end of the tunnel, but there's also a component of patience and of taking a step back and looking at the situation and seeing what part of that situation is in your control and how could make the best of a tough situation. ++++++++++++= [00:20:38] Tommy Thomas: So, what did you learn about trust and communication from team sports? [00:20:45] Deneé Barracato: Trust and communication in team sports is so critical. We talk about this kind of team environment, team impact, and nothing that happens with a group of people is successful unless you have great communication, unless you have a great relationship, unless there's authenticity, intentionality, and all that you put into a relationship. Just understanding the different dynamics of individuals that make up a team or a group is really important. Understanding that different people bring different attributes, bring different skills, bring different gifts that would help propel a team to success. And just knowing that it all starts with intentionality, communication, and embracing people's differences. [00:21:29] Deneé Barracato: And so those things are really critical to the team environment that I've again grown to understand over my period of time as a young adult, but even into the professional realm as an administrator is learning that people have so many different attributes. People have so many different leadership qualities, but it's embracing all those and then in that group setting, just encouraging people to talk about those different things through communication. And putting those things into action for success as a group of individuals may be different. So that way there's a common goal and then, that can hopefully blossom into something beautiful. And in our line of business, that is championships. Just embracing the group setting, knowing that people have different gifts and talents that they can bring to a group. And then, really emphasizing the communication and the embracing of those different skills for success. [00:22:28] Tommy Thomas: Things get tough in someone's career. You get hurt. You don't always win. What motivated you to keep pushing yourself even when things weren't as good as you might have wanted them to be? [00:22:40] Deneé Barracato: I never want to be a quitter, right? Though sometimes things didn't go your way, I was always taught to believe the Lord calls us to be our best selves. And he equips you with the things that you would need to overcome adversity. And I know I didn't always understand that. But I just have this innate thing in me where I always just want to work really hard. I always want to represent my family to the highest extent. I always saw my mother and father working really hard and they provided me with an example of work ethic and being good and great, despite their circumstances. And I always wanted to ensure that I was doing the same thing and that I was making them proud. I was really pushing myself to be the best version of myself, despite my circumstances. Now, did I always follow through on that? No, I think I'm human and I've grown through that. [00:23:37] Deneé Barracato: But I always wanted to ensure that I was making my family proud that I was really taking advantage of all the things that God gave me and provided me and blessed me with. And so, I never wanted to squander that, although there were many times as they mentioned, even my senior year, but I came back and I had this realization that no Deneé, you cannot quit. You have to move forward and overcome the adversity and really tune out the noise. And I would certainly say, my parents, all the things that they instilled in me as a young girl, and then just my personal endeavor to be my best self and the best version of myself was really important to me. [00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: So as a person of faith, how do you deal with competition in athletics? [00:24:26] Deneé Barracato: One, I don't think there's anything wrong with competition. You just can't take it to the next level, right? You have to be gracious. And I have to say I wasn't always gracious on the basketball court. I was a tenacious competitor and sometimes I would have to curtail my competitiveness so that way, people could see the light through me. And, as I mentioned before, I grew into that. And even now I play a mean game of monopoly. I am competitive with my kiddos and my kiddos are competitive with me. But it's all in good fun. I think just coming away with it, knowing that you can be competitive, you can have aspirations to win and there's nothing wrong with that. [00:25:11] Deneé Barracato: As the Lord calls us to be great and he expects that from us. And so just embracing that while also loving your neighbor, while also being gracious, while also having a good attitude and being a good sportsman and really saving some of the things that may not be appropriate in that moment. Allowing the Lord to watch that under the blood, Tommy, we just allow the Lord to take the wheel and go. But certainly, throughout my time in undergrad and just through my life just asking the Lord to guide me and direct me and give me grace when I'm not a reflection of Him, but also reminding myself that it's really important that when people see me, whether it's in a competitive environment or a non-competitive environment, that they see the Lord through me. [00:25:59] Sometimes I fall short of that, but I always ask the Lord for guidance and for favor. And he gives that to me often. And hopefully throughout my life and my career, people have seen that through me. And if they haven't, that means I have more work to do. +++++++++++ [00:26:14] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed Dr. Linda Livingstone, the President at Baylor, and she had played ball at Oklahoma State, and she said that the game of women's basketball has just changed so much since she was a student athlete. [00:26:32] Tommy Thomas: How have you seen it change at the Division I level? [00:26:36] Deneé Barracato: I would agree with her, and I have met her. She's phenomenal. We visited there a couple of years ago not once but twice and she was such a gracious host. I would say, yes, the game of women's basketball has grown to success. We saw that this past year with the women's final four and the viewership and broadcast ratings and all the personalities are certainly Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese and all those that continue to play and will be excited about women's basketball on the collegiate level again, as we're excited about the WNBA happening right now. And I think that the skill level has certainly enhanced since I was playing. The things that these women are doing are incredible, logo threes and the passes and the work ethic and the fitness and the dedication that they put into it is just at a different level. And I think that's attributed to just administrators and the industry putting more into and supporting women’s sports and women’s athletics. [00:27:31] Deneé Barracato: And showing people that know that they're great too. And they deserve to have a platform so people can see how wonderful and how great they are. Certainly, a lot of the banter that you see, I think, I believe is synonymous with just sports in general. But it's how you carry yourself and, how you correct, having those teachable moments on the court, I think we've all had those moments where you're just like, man, I could have probably handled that better. And I think sometimes you may see that on the basketball court. [00:28:08] Deneé Barracato: But I would say that the level of talent has enhanced because the focus and the dedication, and the resources have really been poured into the game of women's basketball in a very unique way. And so we've seen that be evident and what has happened over the last five years. And I've seen it more intimately because I serve on the Division I National Women’s Basketball Committee, and we started back in San Antonio during kind of COVID days. And now to see it progress the way it has over the last four years. Now I'm going into my fifth and final year on the committee and just seeing the explosion on TV, the interest from so many different viewers. And we're talking about the demographics of viewers are just from young children to older men and women that are just so interested in what's happening with women's basketball. It has just been incredible to see. ++++++++++ [00:29:00] Tommy Thomas: Next week we'll continue this conversation with Deneé Barracato. She shares her journey from professional basketball to higher education administration. She reflects on the importance of team dynamics and the need for authenticity and leadership. Deneé also discusses how she balances her leadership role with family life, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and patience and managing multiple responsibilities. Her insights offer valuable lessons on resilience, teamwork, and leading through change, making this episode a must listen for anyone in or aspiring to leadership roles. Links and Resources <a href="https://www.jobfitmatters.com/">JobfitMatters Website</a> <a href= "https://www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast">NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas</a> <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Search-Tommy-Thomas/dp/0978762096">The Perfect Search</a> - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO <a href= "https://nusports.com/staff-directory/dene-barracato/6507">Deneé Barracato Bio</a> <a href= "https://nusports.com/news/2020/5/14/barracato-named-to-ncaa-womens-basketball-committee"> Barracato named to NCAA Women’s Basketball Committee</a> <a href= "https://venuesnow.com/women-of-live-2023-Dene%C3%A9-barracato/">Women of Live 2023 – Deneé Barracato</a> Connect <a href= "mailto:tthomas@jobfitmatters.com">tthomas@jobfitmatters.com</a> <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/tommywthomas/">Follow Tommy on LinkedIn</a> <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/dene%C3%A9-barracato-9332407/">Follow Deneé on LinkedIn</a> <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/dene%C3%A9-barracato-9332407/"> </a> Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: <a href= "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/next-gen-nonprofit-leadership-with-tommy-thomas/id1568190205"> Apple Podcasts</a> | <a href= "https://open.spotify.com/show/2ktzuRAybk5x7CjWUOISCv?si=s0jSaTL6SVue1gJDmoG_FQ"> Spotify</a>

September 17, 2024

Dianne Ogle on the Power of Community in Leadership

[00:00:00] Dianne Ogle: I love creativity. It's one of my favorite things. So that's why I like questions, because even if I think I know the answer, if I ask the question, it's just beautiful to hear what inspires somebody or what was bubbling in them or how they see it, quite frankly. It isn't the way I always see things or think it might play out. So, you give people a door for their own strengths, their own creativity, to participate and join in. And most of the time it's so much better than when we could do it alone. [00:00:32] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the discussion we began last week with Dianne Ogle. In this episode, Dianne shares her extensive leadership journey focusing on the importance of authenticity, community and resilience. She discusses the danger of pride and leadership and emphasizes the need for leaders to rely on their teams and build strong, supportive networks. Dianne also reflects on the power of prayer and how it has shaped her leadership approach, particularly in empowering women leaders. Her insights offer valuable lessons for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of leadership with integrity and faith. This episode is a rich resource for leaders at any stage of their career. Let's pick up where we left off last week. [00:01:25] Tommy Thomas: I'm sure you've observed this in both men and women, but give me your thoughts on the dangerous traits that can derail a leader's career. [00:01:35] Dianne Ogle: Pride, absolute pride. And thinking that you can do it alone. And you don't need anybody else, because what got you here won't get you there, as one of the books says that I use a lot. Because we need each other. We were built for community, and we need each other. And as soon as we think that we have arrived in that corner office, we don't grow. We don't desire. We don't let people in to speak truth to us and have iron sharpens. Iron is when we start digressing, and regressing, we've all seen it. We've all known people. They think they're all there. Even Christians. We're flesh, we're sinful, and we start moving backwards. So that's probably the greatest. [00:02:25] Tommy Thomas: I know, all this is broached in a blanket of confidentiality, and I won't ask you to go there, but does it take the women a while to get used to sharing everything and trusting that their cohorts, that's not what you call it, but their peer, not anymore. [00:02:43] Dianne Ogle: I think originally, initially the first group that was called into it, but they were in need of a group like this that I think they were willing. And when they saw that I was doing a confidentiality statement that they all signed and that it was going to be a safe place. Then they started testing it. Now our foundation is so strong that women will either understand what we've got and be ready to jump in. As soon as they come and join I take them through an onboarding program, and I also have them start meeting with the women one on one, but they immediately come to a meeting after they've joined, and they start seeing how honest, authentic, just real. And the prayer requests that we share, we've really grown in the power of prayer together. And that is authentic because they're sharing every aspect of their lives, not just their work. [00:03:42] Tommy Thomas: So how do they work together from the four pillars, you're bringing people from the nonprofit sector. You've got executive women from Fortune 500 companies. [00:03:53] Dianne Ogle: Now Tommy, the cool thing is we call it repurpose. We don't call it retirement. And some of them, like we had one who was the chief diversity officer at Coca Cola. And she'd been with Coke for 20 years and in her career and near the end of her career, she started being tapped for a paid board of director role. So, she's now repurposed and now she's a board director and still highly engaged with us in linking arms. We have another one who repurposed and now she's helping one of our other members who is the president of the National Day of Prayer, helping her with grant writing and supporting ministry of the National Day of Prayer. [00:04:34] Dianne Ogle: It is beautiful. [00:04:36] Dianne Ogle: We believe we don't compete. We complete. And so there are times where some will work together or we will have an opportunity to like this next National Day of Prayer in May. Kathy Brent sells the President, and she's opened the invitation for all of us to come to the Capitol and to all the festivities to help pray over the nation and all the pillars that involve. [00:05:03] So yes, we are highly diverse, Tommy, both in skin color and political views and career pathing and titles and positions. The beauty is in the foundation we love Jesus. And yes, we've worked through the weathers. [00:05:21] Dianne Ogle: I would say our women are even diverse in age. We've got some in their late thirties to the mid to late sixties. And all my nonprofit or ministry women, that's what shocked me because initially when I saw that pillar of nonprofit, I'm thinking, oh, it'd be like an exec with the Red Cross. And I just assumed it would be those kinds of women coming towards us. And it has been. There have been high level executive women in ministry work. So that's been beautiful. Andrea, who you had on your show before, she was my first one in that category. And I went to her after four months with us. [00:06:01] Dianne Ogle: And I said, I consider her Sage. She is the most amazing woman. I said, Andrea, are we meeting your needs? That was just important for me. And she goes, she's so thoughtful in the way she answers. She goes I come from a big family. I have a big donor base. I've been well supported at Cru since I became a Christian in college. And she goes, but this is so beautiful for me to have a safe place with true peers in other sectors and see the commonality or the similar pain or listen to maybe a different perspective outside of ministry that I can glean from, or I could speak into. And I'm like, okay, Lord, here we go. That's it. [00:06:46] Tommy Thomas: That was going to be a question, and, yeah, I would probably have assumed that, but you say that, regardless of what sector you're in, there probably arises a pattern of issues that you're going to face regardless if you're a private sector or government service or public service, and so y'all are able to work with the whole person. [00:07:10] Dianne Ogle: Absolutely. In and out of season. We've lost a member to death, which was really hard on the group, and it was very sudden. We have walked through lots of personal pain together. And there are groups out there for just professionals, but we work on emotional, spiritual, financial, relational issues. Some of our women are single, some are divorced, some are married, some have children, some do not. And so, you can imagine we all step into this place, but to see the love and the respect and the camaraderie, it always brings tears to my eyes. Just to go, Lord, these are your girls. You've risen us up for such a time as this and we are better together and we need to encourage one another as long as it's called today like scripture says, because it's tough out there. And we need each other. [00:08:10] Dianne Ogle: I tell my coaching clients. Part of my core purpose is to be the Hur, like in Exodus 17. I’m the Hur of Moses and we need people to come by our side to speak into, to give us rest, to help raise our hands. Because these battles that we're in spiritually, professionally, personally, they're weary. It's tough. So, we all need each other. ++++++++++++++++ [00:08:39] Tommy Thomas: If you're writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the CEO can bear, what are some of the topics you would address? [00:08:51] Dianne Ogle: This loneliness is a big one that I hear consistently. Whether I'm talking to a brand new high level woman or talking to one of our Arete’ women, even though they're in the group, they will remember how lonely it can be and misunderstood because our churches a lot of times don't understand us or get our giftedness. A lot of times the other peers, like if they're in childbearing age and they're going to the school, a lot of those mothers don't get them. So, it's hard for them to have community. And then when you're at that senior level, as a CEO, as a board director, just the level of confidentiality and all that you have to take in and feel responsible for is unbelievable pressure. [00:09:41] Dianne Ogle: And so, where do they have their safe place, their place, just to be them authentically, have a place, a table, they could just lay an issue out like an advisor we call, like our own personal advisory council. Here's my issue, help me with this. Or let me just speak it through so I can hear my own voice talking about it in a safe place where it's not gonna go to the media, it's not gonna go to my board directors. It's just something I need to wrestle through to make sure that I've got the wisdom, discernment, knowledge, and understanding for this role. Each and every day I've been called to it. [00:10:24] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned early on, you came out of an athletic family and have done the statistics and all that. So, you'll appreciate a couple of these athletic kind of questions. [00:10:33] Tommy Thomas: David Chadwick, a pastor in Charlotte has written a book on Dean Smith’s life: It's How You Play the Game. The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith. [00:10:42] Tommy Thomas: And he says the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball leadership and society. Your thoughts on that. [00:10:53] Dianne Ogle: Amen, brother. Amen. Like I said earlier, we are not called alone, and we need our teams, both in our organizations and outside of that, because that's when … I tell people I have one brain, like I just have one. And so I gather even my women say, okay, let's talk about our content. Let's talk about our annual retreat. And even though I might come to the table with my own ideas, I want to have an open heart and ask questions. I feel really strong about the power of questions to gain others’ ideas and inspiration, and God uses us all so uniquely with the way he wired us with our personalities and our strengths and the way our stories have unfolded. [00:11:38] Dianne Ogle: We do a lot of assessments in Arete too, over the years, not all it wants to beat us up, but so that we can not only know ourselves better, but the people that we work with in our different teams. And we have deeper understanding and appreciation, and we know who to tap for what assignment. [00:11:56] Tommy Thomas: Here's a quote from Mother Teresa and I like to contextualize this. In the context of Arete’, I'm not called to be successful, but to be faithful. And so is there a tension there between the context in which the women you're working with that’s their existence. [00:12:18] Dianne Ogle: And a lot of my women, as you can imagine, are high achievers. They're highly responsible. When you do these assessments on Strength Finders, they're big-time learners. They're always insatiable to continue to grow and learn. And there is this tension, from the world's expectations and definitions of success and what God sees as success. And sometimes that's not the same. And are you okay with that? In different seasons, sometimes you're more front facing and other times he might have you in a prayer closet. [00:12:51] Dianne Ogle: Or going through a tougher season to sharpen you and to get the dross off of us so that he can use us again. Yeah, that's just really important. [00:13:03] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from General George Patton. Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. [00:13:13] Dianne Ogle: Yes, I love creativity. It's one of my favorite things. So that's why I like questions, because even if I think I know the answer, if I ask the question, it's just beautiful to hear what inspires somebody or what was bubbling in them or how they see it, quite frankly. It isn't the way I always see things or think it might play out. So, you give people a door for their own strengths, their own creativity to participate and join in. And most of the time it's so much better than when we could do it alone or to your point, overreach and over lead and overmanage, then it's all about me, versus it's about us and how we're perfect, how we're navigating and pressing forward. [00:14:01] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one. The best bosses aren't usually those who boost the bottom line as much as it is those who make you a better person and better at your job. [00:14:13] Dianne Ogle: And that's called development, leadership development, and the organizations that get the value, and that's what my husband does. That's his sweet spot with large organizations. [00:14:26] Dianne Ogle: And the organizations who believe that, whether it's coaching like what I do, whether it's the big-time strategies of leadership development, if we miss or you start pulling those budget dollars back from really pouring into your people, it will negatively impact your bottom line when you're too focused on the money and not the people. [00:14:47] Dianne Ogle: And then you lose your legacy. When we're focused on the people and where they're going and have a true sense of wanting to see them succeed and learn and grow and step into their authentic, strong self and grow every stage and step of the way. That's part of our legacy, isn't it? [00:15:10] Tommy Thomas: We talked about creativity and innovation a few minutes ago. Here's another quote. If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change. [00:15:21] Dianne Ogle: And then it gets dull and boring and antiquated. It's then we're no earthly good, and we serve a creative God Elohim who all we have to do is step outside and see the ocean, like where you live or the beautiful flowers that my husband's planted in the trees that I live around here in Georgia. And we see his beauty in and out of season. So, creativity and innovation is like water to the soul. It should be that fresh flowing spring for any individual and organization to continue to thrive and strive for each season. [00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one from Coach Smith. What do you do with the mistake? Recognize it, learn from it, admit it, forget it. [00:16:14] Dianne Ogle: Confess it. Yeah. You got to confess it and go, Lord, help me. If I have a blind spot, am I not seeing this? Did I know it? Is there sin here? Do I need to apologize to somebody or the team or the organization? Learn from it. Have a humble heart. There's nothing more beautiful about a leader who has a cloak of humility that can admit and model when they've made a mistake. And then how are they learning from it? Doesn't mean we have to be perfect. And that's the air that so many leaders believe, is that, oh, I'm in this position, so, I've got to be perfect. No, we should all be learning. And part of what we learn is to model when we have failed or made a mistake and that it's not the end of the world. [00:17:06] Dianne Ogle: We'll pick ourselves back up. Hopefully, the consequences aren't too great, and we can keep navigating forward and we can shift and learn from it quite frankly, and model it to others to learn from. [00:17:19] Tommy Thomas: No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your academic credentials, 15 percent by your professional experience and 80 percent by your communication skills. [00:17:34] Dianne Ogle: Well, communication is critical, isn't it? Whether it's in writing, whether it's oral, whether it's your prayers to the Lord, having that grounded and rooted time where you have the vertical in line so that you can do the horizontal for all that he has called you to do. Not what your talents tend to want to take us up, take over. No, he gave us our threading and our talents and our strengths, but we have to align it to his pace, his cadence, his work and his will every step of the way. [00:18:12] Tommy Thomas: Peter Drucker, the most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said. [00:18:19] Dianne Ogle: And that's called discernment, leaning in. I think if leaders talk too much, they really miss out on pressing in and seeing and hearing using those languages in hearing beyond what is physically said or heard. And sometimes then a strong question can elevate and illuminate something brand new. Or a way to go in and comfort somebody or encourage them or help them out of an area where they might be stuck. +++++++++++++++ [00:18:56] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to staff leadership for a minute before we bring this to a close. [00:18:59] Tommy Thomas: What would go into a decision you might make to give somebody a second chance who had of course, I guess the degree of egregiousness would factor into that, but we all would like to have a second chance. [00:19:11] Dianne Ogle: Absolutely. And God's a giver of second chances every day, right? None of us are perfect. We've all sinned and fallen short of his glory. So why wouldn't we model that as Christ followers and Christ leaders? If we're truly being cloaked with his spirit and his power through us, we should be modeling second chances. Now, does that mean we're fools? No, sometimes we have to do the hard thing and fire people. [00:19:38] Dianne Ogle: Nobody likes doing it that I've ever met, but sometimes it might be in the best interest of the institutional organization that you are entrusted with. Sometimes God's not done writing their story either. And it may be the best thing so that he can continue to do his work in and through them apart from the organization. But yes, he's always in the business of second chances. Thank you, Lord. [00:20:06] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard to get at the health of a nonprofit organization, what would some of your dials measure? [00:20:15] Dianne Ogle: Just the health of your people and where are your priorities? What's that vision, mission, values that hopefully you've aligned with what the Lord wants you to do in that nonprofit and having the metrics. So many times, I find nonprofits not wanting to have measurements and metrics. I don't really understand that because it's just in the spirit of excellence. It's not to shame you or to say you're a failure. But if we don't know where we're going, how are we going to know we ever got there? And so just having those benchmarks on a dashboard and in a visual way, which they make so beautifully these days, it can use it to help us to renavigate, to encourage, to inspire, to help make sure maybe we need to hire somebody we don't have on our team that needs different skill sets to contribute to where we're going. [00:21:11] Tommy Thomas: If you were a judge on a non-profit version of Shark Tank where nonprofits were coming to you for early-stage investment, what questions would you need to have solid answers for before you would open your checkbook? [00:21:26] Dianne Ogle: I'd want to know their viewpoint and their philosophy on leadership right from the beginning. [00:21:33] Dianne Ogle: And you hear that on Shark Tank, it seems like they get invested if they believe that person has the passion and that they will lead well through every stage of those businesses. Same thing with non-profits. You can say you can have all these ideas, and a lot of people start opening for nonprofits because they are visionaries. [00:21:52] Dianne Ogle: They might have a vision. They may not be great executors. So, can I hear from that senior leader that they would have the wisdom to know that they need to put a team into place? To be able to get that momentum going. The name of our business is business momentum group but getting that ministry momentum going is to make sure that you've got the people, you've got the willingness to get the people and resources and talent in place. [00:22:18] Tommy Thomas: Let's bring this to a close. I have some lightning round questions. Some of them sometimes don't seem to lend themselves to lightning round answers , but I'll let you do that. What's one small act of kindness that you were once shown that you'll never forget? [00:22:37] Dianne Ogle: I'm a cook and I have a gift of hospitality, but when I was having the boys, people brought me a meal or hosted me in their home, which doesn't happen a lot these days. That's just very sweet to me because I'm usually the one going, oh, I’ll bring it. Dianne, have you in her home? And I love doing that, but it's really nice when it's done for you. [00:23:03] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anyone's ever given you? [00:23:09] Dianne Ogle: To stay authentic and to stay in the game so that God can use me all my days. [00:23:18] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in life or go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you tell her? [00:23:26] Dianne Ogle: Hold on loosely. It's going to be a ride through the ups and downs and that you will weather through it with God by your side. He never leaves us. He never forsakes us. This great pain that you might think you're going through now is for greater good later. So stay encouraged, my daughter. [00:23:50] Tommy Thomas: What do you understand about your life today that you didn't understand a year ago? [00:23:56] Tommy Thomas: A year ago, or five years ago? [00:23:59] Dianne Ogle: That he continues to amaze me with what he raises me up to do. I had the joy of praying at the National Day of Prayer. They asked me to pray over the sphere of business. And I said, are you sure? Because I pray privately. So I had never been asked to pray publicly in that kind of context. And I knew how important our words are, talking about communication earlier, but if I'm going to speak, I'm like, Lord, then you need to write that prayer because it needs to not be Dianne at all. But just the surprise of what he taps us to do in different seasons is just beyond what we could ask or imagine. [00:24:44] Tommy Thomas: If you could get a do over in life, what would it be? [00:24:50] Dianne Ogle: I don't think anything because I think he uses it all. I just think, whether he's moved us, whether we've had hurts, he uses pain to make us greater. And makes us deeper in his rootedness of our lives. I used to have this, I had this vision one time and I had a friend say, if you had it to do over, would you just get rid of that pain? I'm like, no, because it's a gift no one can take from me. It's part of my threading and it makes me who I am today. If we let him use it. So there is such a gift of pain. [00:25:28] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast. If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable. Links and Resources <a href="https://www.jobfitmatters.com/">JobfitMatters Website</a> <a href= "https://www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast">NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas</a> <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Search-Tommy-Thomas/dp/0978762096">The Perfect Search</a> - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO <a href="https://arete-ewi.com/about-us/">Areté - Executive Women of Influence</a> Connect <a href= "mailto:tthomas@jobfitmatters.com">tthomas@jobfitmatters.com</a> <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/tommywthomas/">Follow Tommy on LinkedIn</a> <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianne-ogle-8b307b6/">Follow Dianne on LinkedIn</a> Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: <a href= "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/next-gen-nonprofit-leadership-with-tommy-thomas/id1568190205"> Apple Podcasts</a> | <a href= "https://open.spotify.com/show/2ktzuRAybk5x7CjWUOISCv?si=s0jSaTL6SVue1gJDmoG_FQ"> Spotify</a>

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What is Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas?: Dedicated to equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders. This will be accomplished by interviewing people whose business, nonprofit and life experiences might be valuable on an emerging leader. When we use the term leader, we are referring to organizational and Board leadership.
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