On Messaging

About On Messaging

Interviews with top product marketers detailing the stories, skills, processes and advice on developing high quality messaging. Hosted and written by Josh Chronister. onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast)

Publisher

Josh Chronister

Category

business · technology

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

24 Dec 2024

Latest episode

11 Mar 2026

Latest episodes

17 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   11 Mar 2026

   A Look Inside the Messaging & Launch Process Behind Vector's Product Launch of the Year Nomination

   Alex Virden joined Vector as their first product marketing hire in April 2025. By October, she had pulled off a full repositioning, a pricing and packaging overhaul, a website redesign, and a Halloween-themed launch — all at a seed-stage startup with fewer than a dozen people. The launch generated a 41% increase in site traffic, $1M in pipeline, and a Product Launch of the Year nomination from the Product Marketing Alliance. Alex is full of PMM knowledge. I hope you learn from her as much as I did. Listen now on YouTube (https://youtu.be/f04b33PcGXw), Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/episode/7F0z5jZwRLfy7WYhWHoaJv?si=t8MiNUm8Rt2TVdhKrhM5HA), and Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-look-inside-the-messaging-launch-process/id1787098696?i=1000754644250) 🎙️ During our conversation, we discuss: * Why Startup Life Requires a Creative Outlet * The boo.o Launch: Results & Recognition * Choosing a Messaging Approach: Jobs to Be Done vs. Use Cases * Brand Tone and Product Messaging: Two Sides of the Same Pancake * What the Messaging Framework Actually Looked Like * Getting Messaging Adopted Across the Team * Customer Interview Process and What She Was Looking For * Talking to Closed-Lost Prospects * How They Tested the Messaging Before Launch * What Reactions to Watch for When Testing Messaging Enjoy 💛 Here are my top takeaways from our conversation: 1. When a messaging project starts pulling threads, let it. What started as a homepage refresh turned into a full repositioning. Alex could have scoped it down and shipped something faster. Instead, she made the case that messaging alone wouldn’t hold if the pricing, packaging, and product framing didn’t all tell the same story. Pulling that thread is what made the launch land. 2. Start with pain, then product. During customer interviews, Alex deliberately separated customers from talking about Vector. She wanted to understand what was keeping them up at night before she ever brought the product back into the conversation. Feature requests have their time and place. But messaging research needs to get at the core problem first. 3. Talk to all the customer. The happy ones and bad fits. Alex made sure to interview a mix: current customers across different levels of usage, closed-lost prospects, and people who never converted. Each group gives you something different. Your best customers validate. Your worst customers warn. Your closed-lost prospects tell you where the message breaks down at the moment of decision. 4. Brand tone and product messaging should mirror each other. Alex described them as, two sides of the same pancake. At Vector, product updates, help articles, and marketing content all sound like the same company — friendly, down to earth, a little irreverent. When tone and messaging are misaligned, the brand becomes unmemorable. When they’re unified, even your release notes feel like part of the story. 5. Messaging adoption doesn’t happen with a Slack message. The launch went well in part because Alex brought people along the whole way — listening to sales calls, crediting reps when their language made it into the messaging, keeping the founder aligned throughout. When the launch arrived, it didn’t feel like a product marketing initiative. It felt like something the whole team had built together. 6. Test for the fans, and the skeptics. When testing messaging with marketers in the field, Alex wasn’t just looking for people who said they liked it. She was looking for confusion, eye rolls, and the gray zone — people who were uncertain or didn’t feel the value justified the price. That’s where the real signal lives. 7. Be willing to make the big ask. The biggest lesson Alex took from the launch: don’t be afraid to recommend a pivot when you see one. Had she scoped this as a messaging project and nothing more, the launch wouldn’t have had the impact it did. Product marketers are often well-positioned to see the full picture. Trust that. Where to find Alex: * Alex’s LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexvirden/) * Vector’s website (https://www.vector.co/) Where to listen to On Messaging Follow On Messaging If you’ve made it this far, thank you 💛 Like this episode? Subscribing to On Messaging on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@OnMessaging) and following on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=a2dc368f102f421a) or Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696) go a long way in supporting the show. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

2. 

   6 Jan 2026

   Danger Zone: Reducing Your Messaging to Fit Into Templates

   Fluvio founder Devon O’Rourke discusses with Josh Chronister why overly simplistic messaging and reliance on templates can damage credibility with technical buyers in product marketing; this is an interview.

3. 

   18 Nov 2025

   How to Position & Message Yourself for PMM Career Growth w/Yi Lin Pei

   Product marketing career coach Yi Lin Pei shares her framework for self-positioning and career differentiation, discussing how to evolve personal messaging and master the "T-Shaped" framework in this interview.

4. 

   11 Sept 2025

   From Competitive Intel to Killer Messaging: How to Differentiate Your POV w/ Talya Heller | Down to a T

   Host Josh Chronister interviews Talya Heller, Owner of Down to a T, on weaving competitive intelligence into messaging that truly differentiates your product's unique value.

5. 

   26 Aug 2025

   Stop Selling Features — Teach a Story Buyers Remember w/ Ryan Yackel | Databand.ai

   Host Joshua Chronister interviews Ryan Yackel, CMO at Databand.ai, about using narrative design to teach memorable sales stories instead of just features.

6. 

   29 Jul 2025

   Create Messaging Reps Use (And Customers Remember) w/Madeleine Work | Chili Piper

   Senior Product Marketing Manager Madeleine Work joins Joshua Chronister to discuss how to develop memorable messaging that sales representatives use, emphasizing internal buy-in and continuous feedback loops in this interview.

7. 

   10 Jun 2025

   From Single-product Messaging to Platform-level Narratives w/ Emily Pick | Clari

   Host Joshua Chronister interviews Emily Pick, Lead Product Marketing Manager at Clari, about platform messaging and tailoring narratives, revealing how to create unified messaging across multiple products.

8. 

   27 May 2025

   How to Align Sales & Marketing Messaging w/Gaspard Pastural | PurpleOceans

   B2B SaaS Product Marketing Consultant Gaspard Pastural discusses aligning sales and marketing messaging with host Josh Chronister, emphasizing relevance over features and consumption-first websites in this interview.

9. 

   13 May 2025

   7 Messaging Principles Every PMM Should Know w/Collin Mayjack | GoFundMe

   On the show today, I have Collin Mayjack, Principle Product Marketing Manager at GoFundMe. Before joining GoFundMe, Collin worked in product marketing at Oncue and Dataro and is the creator of Holy Shift. // What you’ll learn: Why Collin believes clarity always beats cleverness in B2B messaging—and how to avoid “junk food” copywriting The seven messaging principles Collin uses to drive alignment across product, marketing, and sales How to translate complex products into human-first stories that resonate with buyers (and actually get repeated by sales) The secret to testing messaging without fancy tools—including Collin’s scrappy process using real customer calls How to navigate internal messaging politics—balancing SEO, brand voice, and product truths without losing the message A framework for driving influence across teams—even when you don’t own the pen or the process How to write messaging that sticks: Collin’s 20-second talk track technique that sales teams love Why side projects are the ultimate messaging gym—and how they make you a stronger communicator at work A fresh take on feature vs. benefit messaging (hint: your buyers are smarter than you think) How Collin builds buy-in by leading with positioning before assets—and how you can do the same And so much more. // In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 – Intro: Welcome Collin Mayjack to the show 01:33 – From pastor to product marketer: Translating complexity into clarity 03:53 – Why side projects make you a better writer and messenger 06:17 – The origin of Collin’s 7 messaging principles 08:32 – #1: Clear is better than clever (and why most messaging fails here) 09:57 – #2: Differentiate or die—how to bring product strengths to the surface 10:55 – #3: Jargon is the enemy—cut through corporate fluff 11:25 – #4: You can’t say it all—focus on what matters most 12:24 – #5: Customers do care about features (with a twist) 14:21 – #6: Talk to your champion like a human 15:50 – #7: Good messaging flows from good positioning 18:22 – Bonus: The best messaging is clear and clever—but clarity wins 19:17 – How Collin tests messaging without fancy tools (and why he goes rogue) 20:44 – Partnering with PMs to pitch new features to real customers 21:43 – Using customer reactions to validate and refine messaging 22:37 – Real-world naming feedback: letting customers vote live 23:31 – Testing messaging in startups vs. larger companies 24:49 – Scrappy tactics: using social, email, and founders to test ideas 26:00 – How to choose the right customers for feedback 26:58 – The politics of advisory boards and enterprise obsession 28:11 – The PMM cheat code: bring the story, get invited to the table 29:04 – Balancing product messaging with SEO and brand voice 30:33 – Winning influence by starting with positioning, not copy 31:31 – Using Emma Stratton’s VBF framework to earn trust and traction 33:01 – The “mild sauce” effect: how messaging evolves through compromise 33:59 – The power of pen-to-paper: why the strategist shapes the outcome 35:45 – Influence, humility, and the politics of feedback 36:43 – Why being likable matters more than being right 38:10 – How Collin enables the sales team with clear, human messaging 39:21 – “Tuesdays with Enablement”: internal sessions that drive adoption 40:14 – How Collin builds 30-second sales stories that actually stick 41:43 – The James story: an example of sales messaging that works 43:07 – Talk tracks over taglines: why real talk wins 43:49 – Being active in Slack and jumping on sales calls to support deals 44:55 – Lightning round: One messaging tip you can implement tomorrow 46:21 – What is living all about? Collin’s personal reflection 47:00 – Where to find Collin and lift him up // 👉 Where to find Collin LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) Holy Shift Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/company/holy-shift-pod/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) 👉 Where to find Josh LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) // 🎙️Referenced Alex Eaton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) Mark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) Gab Bujold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

10. 

    29 Apr 2025

    "How We Almost Botched Our Messaging..." w/Alex Eaton | UserEvidence

    On the show today, I have Alex Eaton, Director of Product Marketing at UserEvidence. Before joining UserEvidence, Alex worked in product marketing at Help Scout and Lessonly. What you’ll learn: 1. The 3 traits that separate great product marketers from good ones—and why “execution” is the most underrated 2. How Alex avoided a messaging disaster at UserEvidence—and the simple question that unlocked the right positioning3. Why most messaging gets overlooked inside companies—and how Alex ensures people actually use it4. A tactical breakdown of messaging docs that get read—why yours should be under two pages 5. The “gut tension” test Alex uses to know when messaging isn’t ready yet—and how to push past it 6. How to tailor messaging for multiple personas without breaking consistency 7. The role of customer evidence in brand messaging—and why UserEvidence leads with faces, not product shots 8. How to enable sales without being the “messaging cop”—Alex’s exact approach to feedback, coaching, and internal buy-in 9. What Alex learned from working with messaging consultants like Fletch—and when to bring in outside help 10. The mindset shift from “being right” to “driving outcomes”—why collaboration beats ownership in product marketing And so much more. // In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 – Intro & Welcome 00:51 – What Separates Good from Great Product Marketers 03:32 – How to Get Teams to Rally Behind You 06:19 – The Anxiety of Surface-Level Messaging 07:48 – Execution Over Strategy: Getting In the Weeds 09:23 – How Alex Nearly Blew the Messaging at UserEvidence 12:02 – The Phrase That Almost Made It: "Evidence-Based Content Platform" 13:57 – The Simpler, Stronger Message: Customer Evidence Platform 14:56 – Rolling Out the Messaging: Site, Deck, Personas, and More 15:43 – Connecting Problem and Solution: From Evidence Gap to Platform Fit 17:36 – Working With Fletch on Messaging: Why External Voices Matter 21:37 – Simplifying Messaging for Global Understanding 23:23 – Leading With Customer Stories in Messaging 25:51 – Becoming the Best at Customer Evidence—In Their Own Marketing 27:31 – Leading With Personas, Not Product 28:26 – Why Real Faces > Stock Photography 31:32 – The "Two-Page Messaging Doc" Philosophy 34:06 – How to Layer in Nuance After the Message Sticks 36:24 – Giving Feedback Without Micromanaging Sales 41:43 – Enabling Sales to Use the Message Consistently 44:53 – Tailoring Messaging for Personas Without Losing Focus 50:11 – Final Takeaway: The Power of Gut Tension 51:36 – What’s Living All About? 53:13 – Where to Connect With Alex // 👉 Where to find Alex LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) 👉 Where to find Josh LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) // 🎙️Referenced Mark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Jillian Hoefer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianmacnulty/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Evan Huck: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanhuck/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Ray Rhodes: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-rhodes-a0672568/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Robert Kaminski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) David Ogilvy: https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Jason Oakley: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakleyjason/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) UserEvidence: https://www.linkedin.com/company/userevidence/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Lessonly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lesson-ly/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Gong: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gong-io/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Help Scout: https://www.linkedin.com/company/help-scout/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) Fletch: https://www.linkedin.com/company/fletch-pmm/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

11. 

    15 Apr 2025

    How to Get the Most From Every Customer Interview w/Shoshana Kordova | Peel Product Marketing

    On the show today, I have Shoshana Kordova, creator of Peel Product Marketing. She truly defines what it means to be a curious product marketer and I think you’ll see what I mean throughout our conversation. This episode is for product marketers who… - Are coming from a writing or editing background and how that experience is a huge plus - You’re looking to run customer interviews that go beyond surface level - How to create messaging for very technical products - How to understand the core needs of sales and why they are asking for enablement - Why it’s about understanding the story first, then the telling - And how to break into product marketing at a high tech start up And so much more. // In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 Introduction to Shoshana Kordova's Journey 03:31 Transitioning from Journalism to Product Marketing 06:13 The Importance of Research and Interviewing 08:51 Understanding Messaging through Customer Insights 11:32 The Role of Internal Stakeholders in Messaging 14:19 Exploring Customer Needs and ROI 17:03 Peeling the Onion: Digging Deeper in Conversations 19:44 Crafting Clear Messaging for High-Tech Products 24:57 Understanding Diverse Messaging Needs 29:10 The Power of Visual Storytelling 34:25 Crafting Compelling Stories in Marketing 38:13 Mentoring and Building Confidence in Product Marketing 44:59 Key Messaging Takeaways and What Living is All About // Find the full transcript at: https://onmessaging.substack.com/p/how-to-get-the-most-from-every-customer (https://onmessaging.substack.com/p/how-to-get-the-most-from-every-customer) // Where to find Shoshana: Website: https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shoshana-kordova/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) How To Get Insights From Customer Interviews (Playbook #7): (https://jetpack.productivepmm.com/playbooks/playbook-7-customer-insights-and-messaging)https://jetpack.productivepmm.com/playbooks/playbook-7-customer-insights-and-messaging (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Where to find Josh: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OnMessaging (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) // Referenced: Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Amanda Natividad: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandanat/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Steven Dubner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-dubner-2a066578/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) The Smithsonian: https://www.si.edu/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Marketo: https://business.adobe.com/products/marketo.html (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Hubspot: https://www.hubspot.com/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Gong: https://www.gong.io/ (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) Peel Product Marketing: https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys (https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

12. 

    1 Apr 2025

    An Accidental Marketer's Approach to Messaging w/ Pete McCarthy | Open Road Integrated Media

    On the show today, we have Pete McCarthy, chief marketing officer at Open Road Integrated Media. Before joining Open Road, Pete led consumer insights at Ingram content group, co-founded a marketing saas, and led marketing at places like Penguin, and Random House. Pete’s been in marketing at start-ups, mid sized companies, large orgs, and as an agency owner. In our conversation he shares, 1. How messaging strategy varies across business sizes 2. The method behind the right book, to the right reader, at the right time 3. How customer relationships drive messaging 4. The CMO’s role on messaging 5. Why product marketers are positioned to be marketing executives And so much more! // In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 Introduction 01:44 Pete's Marketing Background 13:17 The Evolution of Marketing Messaging 22:20 Positioning and Messaging Across Business Sizes 31:26 How Messaging was Created for Marketing Insights 36:52 Building Relationships in Corporate Marketing 41:19 The Role of a CMO in Messaging 49:49 How a CMO Thinks About Data and Marketing Measurement 01:00:01 Advice for Aspiring Marketing Executives // Where to find Pete: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Where to find Josh: Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OnMessaging (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) // Referenced: Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Jess Johns: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessjohns/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Open Road Integrated Media Inc: https://openroadintegratedmedia.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Ingram Content Group: https://www.ingramcontent.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Penguin Random House: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) The New York Review of Books: https://www.nybooks.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Granta Publications: https://granta.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Google: https://www.google.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Yahoo: https://www.yahoo.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Marketing Insights Apple: https://www.apple.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Microsoft: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Dell Technologies: https://www.dell.com/en-us (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Pixar Animation Studios: https://www.pixar.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) GE: https://www.ge.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Costco Wholesale: https://www.costco.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Walmart: https://www.walmart.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

13. 

    18 Mar 2025

    How to Align Brand & Product Messaging w/ Jeff Chase | Vitally.io

    Listen now on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/episode/1KIfUhZbngRtDbf3Y3nv98?si=x0CdN76oR_CeHPIV-LTwCw), YouTube (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg), and Apple (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-align-brand-product-messaging-w-jeff-chase-vitally-io/id1787098696?i=1000699578318). On the show today, we have Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io. Before joining Vitally, Jeff worked in product marketing and community at places like Plume Design, Verkada, Eero and Amazon. Jeff’s been a two time founding product marketer at high-growth B2B SaaS start-ups. In our conversation he shares, * His process to creating positioning and messaging at high growth start ups * The crucial role of customer conversations to develop messaging * Gaining buy-in from leadership for messaging and positioning * How to create effective interactive demos And so much more! Key takeaways from the conversation: Rethinking the Product Marketing Role Jeff argues that the term product marketing doesn’t do justice to what we actually do. In B2B SaaS, product marketers are core to go-to-market strategy, sales enablement, and positioning. The title “product marketer” might even be limiting our influence. Jeff suggests that the best product marketers today operate more like strategic advisors, not just content creators. So, should we be calling it something else? Time will tell or maybe a little debating will too… Creating Messaging and Positioning in Startups Step one for building messaging? Talk to the founders. Not about what the product does, but why it exists. Focusing on the product's features will come later. You should aim to understand the founders' motivations, like: * Why they built the product. * How they plan to differentiate it in the market. * The pain points they identified. * Their firsthand experiences with these pain points. When you understand these foundational elements, you can grasp the essence of why the product exists. This is crucial for building effective messaging that highlights the product's differentiation, especially when entering an existing market. Jeff mentions, in competitive spaces, it's not enough to explain what a product is (like a CRM); you need to tell people why your product is being built the way it is. The Role of Customer Conversations You’re never done with customer research. Messaging should evolve as your customers’ challenges evolve. Jeff shares how he refines messaging at Vitally by constantly listening to sales calls, customer success feedback, and direct interviews. * Reach out to customers within 30 days of starting. Have open-ended conversations to reveal recurring themes and the specific language customers use to describe their problems and what’s been solved so far. This customer language is invaluable for crafting messaging that resonates authentically. * Look to ongoing conversations. These reoccurring conversations are essential for continuously refining your messaging and positioning to remain relevant and impactful. This feedback loop helps prevent your messaging from becoming stagnant. What biggest takeaway here? The importance of humanizing your message by putting yourself in the shoes of the buyer and understanding their perspective. Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work. Gaining Buy-In for Messaging and Positioning Rolling out new messaging isn’t about unveiling a finished product—it’s about bringing internal stakeholders along for the journey. Here’s Jeff’s process for getting buy-in from leadership: * Open the Conversation: Present your positioning and messaging not as a final decision, but as a starting point for discussion and feedback. Frame it as "here's what I'm thinking based on what I've heard," inviting thoughts and feedback to build something everyone can rally behind. * Proof Points: Support your proposed messaging with evidence like quotes from customer interviews and even relevant Reddit posts. Back this up with data from market reports and original research. * Balancing Perspectives: Recognize that founders and leaders have their own vision, and it's crucial to balance that with the realities observed in the market and feedback from customers. If these perspectives are too far apart, a foundational conversation about potential repositioning might be necessary. * Engaging Stakeholders Early: Don't present your messaging as a surprise. Involve key stakeholders from different teams like sales, customer success, and product early in the process to get their input and build alignment. This will helps prevent pushback later on. Getting buy-in from the sales leadership is particularly important as they are on the front lines and often have the ear of senior leadership. * Iterative Testing: View positioning and messaging as something to be tested and refined continuously. Use the sales team to test different messaging (talk tracks, slides decks, etc.) during calls and gather feedback on what resonates. Brand and Product Messaging Alignment At early-stage startups, your brand is your product. Often times, you’ll notice other companies rely heavily on abstract messaging without clearly showing the product in action. We’ve all seen it. Lazy category creation or buzzword messaging. By making the product essentially the brand, you showcase its value and differentiation directly. This provides a competitive advantage by reducing the time it takes for potential customers to understand what the software does and how it solves their problems. In a crowded market, this directness helps stand out and can accelerate customer acquisition by immediately addressing the core question: "What does this product actually do for me?" As the company grows and the brand becomes more established, the focus might evolve beyond just the product itself. Creating Effective Interactive Demos The goal of an interactive demo? Get to the aha moment—fast. People don’t want a guided tour of every button; they want to see how the product solves their problem. Here are the three types of interactive product demos at Vitally.io: * The primary overall product tour: * This is the most in-depth demo and is designed for individuals who have no prior knowledge of Vitally. The goal is to easily educate them by providing quick, succinct steps explaining what the product is and what different features do. As Vitally is a sales-led product, this tour aims to give users a foundational understanding and vocabulary so they can have more informed conversations with the sales team. * Demos on how to use specific features: * These demos are more detailed-oriented and are created for their existing customers. The purpose is to drive self-service adoption of the different features within the platform. These demos might be harder to understand for someone who has never used the platform before. * Blueprints (dual use case for existing customers and prospects): * These demos came about as Vitally noticed their customers using the product in really great ways. The idea was to turn these customer use cases into interactive product demos to showcase how Vitally can be used or how a user could use it in their own context. These "blueprints" serve a dual purpose by showing prospects the power of Vitally and providing existing customers with ideas and templates on how to further utilize the platform. How to Know When Messaging Resonates Directly measuring the impact of messaging can be challenging. Here are a few indicators of success: * The sales team isn't reporting confusion or lack of understanding from prospects regarding the product's value proposition. * Look at business growth metrics like sales revenue increase, adoption of the featured product, customer retention, and competitive win rates. Success in these areas can indicate that the messaging is effectively attracting and engaging the right audience. * Another insightful metric for a customer success platform like Vitally is Net Revenue Retention (NRR), as it reflects both new revenue and the continued value customers see in the product. Ultimately, if sales isn’t complaining about the messaging and outputs from product marketing, it suggests what you’ve created is resonating, but that doesn’t mean you can’t make it better :) Noteworthy Quotes: "If you’re a product marketer and you're treating positioning and messaging as a check mark versus part of your process, then you're going to fail to evolve and grow your business." "If your sales team isn't complaining that people aren't understanding your message, then it's probably working." "In early-stage B2B SaaS, I think brand and product positioning should be one and the same, because you don’t have a ton of flexibility and time to speak on the airwaves." "When you're really building out an interactive demo, you want to get to those 'aha' moments as quickly as possible. People really don't want to slog through why your product exists—they need to see the value fast." "Great product marketers aren't just storytellers; they connect the dots between customer insights, competitive intelligence, and sales enablement to drive go-to-market success." "If you launch messaging and immediately get asked to redo it, that’s a sign it didn’t resonate. A good sign that it's working? Your sales team isn’t asking for changes." "To get buy-in for messaging, you need to take leaders along for the journey—not just suddenly drop a finished product in their lap and expect them to sign off." "When creating website messaging for a new product feature, don’t just describe the features—focus on the pain points you solve and why that matters to the customer." Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it. In this episode, we cover: 06:20 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=myMqy191wqN5CPb_&t=381) The Evolution of Product Marketing Roles 10:11 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=UMF90PVTy0-QlYdx&t=611) Creating Messaging and Positioning in Startups 16:05 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=-PcSh1n3TOUUc_oH&t=965) The Role of Customer Conversations 19:11 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=Eafx_6yenXEYznR3&t=1151) Gaining Buy-In for Messaging and Positioning 29:07 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=_HAOXzfCpLII92jC&t=1748) The Importance of Sales and Customer Feedback 31:23 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=HM-hT5nda6ud_H8S&t=1884) Brand and Product Messaging Alignment 35:45 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=VjkpuWEd2tPwy3_C&t=2147) Creating Effective Interactive Demos 43:11 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=BTKB8G00w-p9zLJ_&t=2591) Crafting Compelling Website Messaging 51:07 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=gyDcPPjniHNmqTRh&t=3068) Measuring Messaging Effectiveness 58:05 (https://youtu.be/ZF81mkYnOdg?si=Z1U4wC_DOEw9_UC2&t=3486) Final Thoughts on Messaging and Life Lessons Referenced: Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/) April Dunford: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/) Julien Sauvage: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julien-sauvage/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/julien-sauvage/) Vitally: https://www.vitally.io/ (https://www.vitally.io/) Jellyfish: https://jellyfish.co/ (https://jellyfish.co/) Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ (https://www.salesforce.com/) Nike: https://www.nike.com/ (https://www.nike.com/) HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/ (https://www.hubspot.com/) Eero: https://eero.com/ (https://eero.com/) Google: https://www.google.com/ (https://www.google.com/) Gainsight: https://www.gainsight.com/ (https://www.gainsight.com/) ChurnZero: https://churnzero.com/ (https://churnzero.com/) Navattic: https://www.navattic.com/ (https://www.navattic.com/) We’re Not Marketers: https://www.notmarketers.com/ (https://www.notmarketers.com/) April Dunford’s Positioning Podcast: https://www.positioning.show/ (https://www.positioning.show/) Created by Josh Chronister I interview the best product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

14. 

    4 Mar 2025

    Consistency & Storytelling in Messaging w/ Michele Nieberding | MetaRouter

    Listen now on YouTube (https://youtu.be/vakrTkjjVGQ), Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/episode/01RgW4VLMGMvWEbw42gGfZ?si=rkzblxgZTcapzJ9J0KCzkw), and Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/consistency-storytelling-in-messaging-w-michele-nieberding/id1787098696?i=1000696922079)! On the show today, we have Michele Nieberding, the Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter. Before joining MetaRouter, Michele worked in product marketing Iterable, Qualtrics, and Cvent. Michele’s been named a two time Top 100 Product Marketing Leader by Product Marketing Alliance. Here are the key themes and ideas from my time with Michele: Defining the Difference Between Positioning and Messaging * Michelle emphasizes that messaging is what gets people excited to talk to you: "It's that first impression that can make or break the the conversation because if your messaging is really off or really incorrect, you turn people off from the get-go and that's a problem. And if it really resonates, those are the moments that people are like, 'Oh my gosh, I need to show my boss or my team or whatever. about this tool and that's when the conversations really get going.'" * She differentiates messaging from positioning: Positioning defines the strategy (where you fit, why you matter), while messaging surrounds that to communicate the story or narrative. * She uses the analogy of a Christmas present 🎁 "Positioning is the core Christmas present that you're wrapping and then wrapped in a box of messaging and maybe on top is the bow, which could be like your tagline or your elevator or maybe some value props" Category Creation: A Hot Take * Michelle expresses a strong opinion against category creation, calling it a "waste of time" and "risky" 🌶️ She believes the rewards are often not worth the risk, especially for smaller companies. * She shares a story from MetaRouter: Initially built around "Customer Data Infrastructure (CDI)," a vague category, then narrowed to "server-side tag management" (too narrow), and finally settling on "data collection integration." * The problem with creating a category is that you also have to educate people about the category itself, in addition to your product. This requires significant budget and resources. * She uses the example of a company called Spekit that coined the term "just in time learning" which was not well received, and eventually pulled back to sales enablement. * Larger companies might be able to pull it off. Michelle believes Gong successfully coined "conversational intelligence", but even then, customers buy it to solve a problem, not just because of the category. Michele’s Product Marketing Bible * Let me introduce you to Michele’s "Product Marketing Bible" – a foundational messaging guide containing everything from elevator pitches and personas to use cases, stats, and customer stories. * This document serves as a single source of truth for all teams (sales, customer success, partnerships). * She does quarterly audits of the messaging, updating the document and holding enablement sessions to explain changes. * The messaging guide is a great starting place for training AI tools to help better know the product, market, competition and value props for future prompting. Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it. Using AI for Messaging and Research * Michelle describes a powerful AI workflow using Perplexity and Google Notebook LM. * Perplexity is used for research (market trends, competitor analysis) because it provides citations. * Google Notebook LM indexes internal (pitch decks, documents) and external (websites, PDFs) information, consolidating it with the Perplexity research. * The mix of both AI tools is great for building battle cards quickly. * She also recommends "Prompt Genie" for generating better prompts for tools like ChatGPT. How to Craft Messaging for Technical Products * Technical messaging can fail if it doesn't clearly communicate the value and impact of the product. It's important to explain why people should care about the technical solution, avoiding reliance on buzzwords. * Storytelling is crucial, even in technical fields. Use customer stories or strong narratives to help explain the "so what" and why it matters. * Talk to subject matter experts (engineering, product) and ask questions to help build accurate messaging. "If you're not saying the right things or using the right verbiage, especially in a technical solution, you can turn people off pretty quickly. There's like some big implications to to getting that right.” * She uses the example of a news story that went viral about Target exposing a teenager's pregnancy to her father based on her purchasing data. She used this story as a campaign about data protection and not letting Facebook WebMD your customers. Messaging for Multiple Personas * MetaRouter's users are often product managers and data scientists, while the budget holders are marketers. * Find shared pain points and unified outcomes between the different personas. * She recommends focusing on a "common enemy" to unify messaging to everyone. (Like making sure data is compliant) * Tailor specific language and benefits to each persona. * She advocates for quality over quantity, limiting personas to 3-5 max. Too many, and you won't be able to support them effectively. Knowing When Your Messaging Resonates * Personal validation comes from hearing positive feedback from the CEO, sales team, or customers who say they've seen the messaging "everywhere." * From a data-driven perspective, win rates are the most important metric. If deals aren't closing, there's a problem with the messaging. "If sales isn't hitting their goals, I'm doing something wrong." * There's a difference between top-of-funnel and bottom-of-funnel messaging. * Top-of-funnel: Focus on who you are, what you do, and solving the right pain points. * Bottom-of-funnel: Focus on the technical details, how you're different, and customer testimonials. * Customer testimonials are not important until bottom-of-funnel. * Validating messaging is like tuning a radio. She says it's about finding the point where the message "sounds just right," cutting through the noise and static. These moments of clarity are validating and demonstrate the impact of product marketing. Quick Advice on Messaging * Clarity is key. Don't try to cram everything into your messaging. * Consistency is key. Use the same words your customers use. Repeat the message. * Don't be afraid to be creative! Elevate the core messages with creative campaigns. Find recent news stories you can tie a campaign to. B2B doesn’t have to be boring! What is Living all about for Michele Living is all about making the most of every moment. This means finding a balance, whether in professional or personal pursuits, that brings happiness and allows one to feel energized and purposeful. If that spark of life is lost, it is time to make a change. For Michelle, maintaining this spark involves: * Finding joy and meaning in work, even if it's challenging. * Having personal interests, such as golf, that provide enjoyment and teach valuable lessons like patience. * Embracing new experiences and being willing to learn, even as an adult. * Seeking activities that re-energize and provide a sense of accomplishment, helping to balance out difficult moment. Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive each new episode. Here’s what’s covered in our conversation: 00:00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=0s) Introduction to Product Marketing and Messaging 01:25 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=85s) The Importance of Messaging in Product Marketing 02:45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=165s) Michele’s Definition of Messaging 07:26 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=446s) Category Creation vs. Messaging: A Hot Take 10:07 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=607s) Understanding Customer Perspectives on Categories 13:10 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=790s) Maintaining Messaging Consistency Across Teams 16:17 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=977s) Leveraging AI Tools for Messaging and Research 19:18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=1158s) Crafting Messaging for Technical Products 22:11 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=1331s) The Role of Storytelling in Technical Messaging 25:20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=1520s) Engaging with Subject Matter Experts for Accurate Messaging 34:26 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=2066s) The Impact of Targeted Advertising 39:06 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=2346s) Navigating Multiple Personas in Messaging 46:50 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=2810s) Measuring Messaging Resonance 50:04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=3004s) Understanding the Messaging Funnel 53:32 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakrTkjjVGQ&t=3212s) Key Messaging Takeaways Referenced: MetaRouter: https://metarouter.io (https://metarouter.io) Iterable: https://www.iterable.com (https://www.iterable.com) Qualtrics: https://www.qualtrics.com (https://www.qualtrics.com) Cvent: https://www.cvent.com (https://www.cvent.com) Product Marketing Alliance: https://www.productmarketingalliance.com (https://www.productmarketingalliance.com) Tealium: https://tealium.com (https://tealium.com) Spekit: https://spekit.com (https://spekit.com) Gong: https://www.gong.io (https://www.gong.io) We're Not Marketers: https://werenotmarketers.com (https://werenotmarketers.com) Claude AI: https://www.anthropic.com/claude (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbHI1c1RKZFhnVEZrVGxtX0o2NVk4Q2tOLVVhZ3xBQ3Jtc0tscTkwLTUzVnYzak80LU1FSlZtdG1naG1tWURRSE5nSnMtR2M4dWtWZlJlNDNlWjBCbU9jbVFIRnFnUTgtMjVoMF93X2VuaFcwb2FKRG4xTDFHUVNJcEN5REZLV3hUMWh4YUQ5UnJkdzlSYzRzX0RVaw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.anthropic.com%2Fclaude&v=vakrTkjjVGQ) Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai (https://www.perplexity.ai) ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com (https://chat.openai.com) Google NotebookLM: https://www.notebooklm.google (https://www.notebooklm.google) Prompt Genie: https://www.promptgenie.com (https://www.promptgenie.com) Gartner: https://www.gartner.com (https://www.gartner.com) Forrester: https://www.forrester.com (https://www.forrester.com) G2: https://www.g2.com (https://www.g2.com) Target: https://www.target.com (https://www.target.com) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com (https://www.facebook.com) TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com (https://www.tiktok.com) Opus Clip: https://www.opus.pro/ (https://www.opus.pro/) Instagram: https://www.instagram.com (https://www.instagram.com) WebMD: https://www.webmd.com (https://www.webmd.com) Riverside: https://www.riverside.fm (https://www.riverside.fm) Created by Josh Chronister I interview the best product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

15. 

    18 Feb 2025

    How to Run Message Testing Like a Seasoned Pro | On Messaging w/ Gab Bujold

    Listen now on YouTube (https://youtu.be/o8_Qc4b6Ojk?si=UY5fGC61aJygoFjD), Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/episode/3OWNY2FEeJJSwgmNrcke8I?si=uO5S8IPRQOaZgh7Dw9usqA), and Apple (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-run-message-testing-like-a-seasoned-pro-on/id1787098696?i=1000692092210)! On the show today, we have Gab Bujold, messaging strategist and co-host of the We’re Not Marketers Podcast. Gab’s helped 30+ B2B SaaS worldwide nail their product messaging. Here are the key themes and ideas from my time with Gab: Messaging is a Long-Term, Iterative Process: * Messaging is not a "set and done" task, but rather a continuous initiative that needs to adapt to changing market conditions, competitors, and customer needs. "Messaging to me is a long-term initiative because it's never a set and done thing, right?... Markets are shifting, new competitors are going in... There's always moving parts." * You need to prioritize your understanding of why customers buy, love, and stay with your product/service. It’s fundamental to messaging. The "Product Marketers Aren't Marketers" Debate: * Gab and his co-hosts (Eric Holland & Zach Roberts) on the We're Not Marketers podcast hold the controversial view that product marketers aren’t traditional marketers. * The origin of this belief stems from the observation that a PMM’s skills don’t directly translate to a traditional marketing role focused on lead generation. * Product marketers are viewed more as strategic thinkers, enablers, and business strategists. "[Speaking about Eric] Basically, I very much believe that PMMs are not marketers... my skills from being a PMM don't really translate to the new role that they're asking me... So he just said, well I mean we're not even marketers and then it kind of just stick..." * The purpose of the debate is to remove the existential crisis in product marketing, define the role, give more influence and set up guard rails for the function, not to diminish or demean the role. * I argue the opposite, that product marketers are marketers, because they do the core functions of marketing ("4P's": product, price, promotion, place). * Gab’s counterargument is that “everyone does marketing” and the focus has been lost on the core principles. It was a fun little debate :) The Importance of Customer Understanding: * The process of building a strong messaging foundation starts with a deep understanding of customers. * Key questions to ask yourself: * "How are we bringing money today?" * "Why are we bringing money today?" * "Why do people love us?" * "Why do they keep staying with us today?" * This understanding encompasses customer problems, aspirations, fears, and frustrations. * Gab’s approach involves reaching out directly to customers to gain understanding through direct conversation. He emphasizes that it's not a sales call, but a genuine effort to understand them * Active listening and empathy are crucial. * The goal is to listen to understand, not to listen to fix. Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive new posts like this every 2 weeks! Message Market Fit (MMF): * MMF is defined as the "baby step" to product-market fit. * MMF is an indicator of whether messaging resonates with the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) under current market conditions. * It is not a one-time event, but a continuous assessment that requires iteration. "To me message market fit is kind of like the baby step to product market fit. It's an index that tells you if your messaging resonate with your ICP with the current market conditions.” * MMF is a sign to double down on marketing efforts and push campaigns harder. * The components to achieving MMF include: clear ICP, key messages, and the ability to test them effectively. * 30% of MMF is based on the ICP. If you get the ICP wrong, then your foundation for success is flawed. Message Testing: * Message testing requires more than just running A/B tests. * Key steps: * Ensure your ICP is clear. * Make sure you have enough volume to test, to reach statistical significance. * Categorize your data into qualitative (e.g., ICP alignment, differentiation, emotion, clarity, consistency) and quantitative (e.g., reply rates, conversion) components. * Gab uses LinkedIn Text Ads as a fast and cost-effective way to test messaging. * Message testing is done to see if the results match the hypothesis and to make adjustments based on the data. Differentiation: * The first step to differentiation is understanding the current market and context. * Don't copy competitors. Instead, develop a unique point of view that might be considered “unhinged” or “different”. Kind of like We’re Not Marketers. * Focus on your customers and why they choose you over alternatives. * The key is to offer a different experience, value, or product, not just a better version of what's already out there. "The first step to differentiate is to understand what's the current state, right? What's your market? What's your context? What big shift happened? And then ensure you understand why would people go with you instead of going with the competition..." * Use questions during customer interviews to understand why customers choose you over alternatives to help identify differentiators. * “What are the 3-5 solutions you looked at before choosing us?” * Ask prospects “In what category would you put this product?” to gauge how well your positioning is working. Connection between Business, Product, and Positioning Strategy: * Messaging falls under the positioning aspect of the overall strategy. * Your positioning directly impacts how relevant your messages are. * Understanding your product strategy and what problems you’re trying to solve in the context of the market drives your messaging. * Business > Product > Positioning strategy. They should all flow together and align. This is where the concept of PMMs being business strategists originates. PMM are the most well-rounded department (or should be!) in the org. they know the market, customers, and product. The Power of "Without": * The word “without” in messaging adds definition and eliminates doubt to drive home the point of what a product/service offers and what problems it solves. * “Without” is a word that can be used in defining positioning, setting clear messaging and written in the actual copy for your audience. * Example from Freckle.io homepage: “It’s like Clay…without the learning curve.” Actionable Takeaways: * Adopt a long-term mindset when it comes to messaging, continuously refining based on feedback and market changes. * Seek a deep understanding of your customers through direct conversations and listening to understand (not to fix). * Prioritize message market fit as a crucial step before product market fit. * When testing messages, don’t start with A/B testing. Ensure you have a clear ICP, a big enough testing volume, and you’re categorizing data correctly. * Dare to be different by developing your unique POV. Don’t copy competitors. * Ask prospects “In what category would you put this product?” to gauge how well your positioning is working. * Leverage the word "without" in your messaging and copywriting to help your audience quickly understand what your product is and the unique value. Here’s what’s covered in our conversation: 02:04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=124s) Are Product Marketers, Marketers? 11:07 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=667s) Messaging is a Long-term Initiative 13:45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=825s) You Need to be Speaking with Customers 17:16 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=1036s) How to Speak with Customer 21:42 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=1302s) Listening to Understand: The Key to Effective Communication 22:34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=1354s) Junk Food Advice: The Dangers of Surface-Level Messaging 24:35 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=1475s) Understanding Message Market Fit: A Crucial Step for Startups 30:00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=1800s) Running Effective Message Testing: Steps and Strategies 36:49 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=2209s) Differentiation in Messaging: Standing Out in a Crowded Market 49:55 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=2995s) Aligning Messaging with Business and Product Strategy 55:24 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_Qc4b6Ojk&t=3324s) Practical Messaging Advice: Context is Key Where to find Gab: * Website: https://pressxtomarket.com/ (https://pressxtomarket.com/) * Message Market Fit Scorecard: https://mmf-scorecard-lp.carrd.co/ (https://mmf-scorecard-lp.carrd.co/) * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/) * Podcast: https://www.notmarketers.com/ (https://www.notmarketers.com/) Referenced: We're Not Marketers podcast: https://www.notmarketers.com/ (https://www.notmarketers.com/) Eric Holland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketer/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketer/) Zach Roberts: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zgroberts/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zgroberts/) Product Marketing Alliance: https://www.productmarketingalliance.com/ (https://www.productmarketingalliance.com/) Yi Lin Pei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yilinpei/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/yilinpei/) BizDev Labs: https://www.bizdevlabs.com/ (https://www.bizdevlabs.com/) V2 Cloud: https://v2cloud.com/ (https://v2cloud.com/) Mitch Solway: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/) Lenny's podcast: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/podcast (https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/podcast) Mindstone: https://www.mindstone.com/ (https://www.mindstone.com/) Jonathan Hoffsuemmer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhoffsuemmer/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhoffsuemmer/) Message Market Fit Book: https://www.fltrd.in/book (https://www.fltrd.in/book) Robert Kaminski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/) Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/) Fletch PMM: https://www.fletchpmm.com/ (https://www.fletchpmm.com/) Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/) April Dunford: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/) Freckle.io: https://www.freckle.io/ (https://www.freckle.io/) Clay: https://www.clay.com/ (https://www.clay.com/) PowerBI: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/power-platform/products/power-bi (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/power-platform/products/power-bi) Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it. Created by Josh Chronister I interview the best B2B product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

16. 

    4 Feb 2025

    Messaging Clarity: How to Be Perfectly Understood by Your Audience | On Messaging w/ Zach Messler

    Listen now on Apple (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/messaging-clarity-how-to-be-perfectly-understood-by/id1787098696?i=1000683671518), Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/episode/1IN0kAXzqrLNyPSjSgSabH?si=nV-nEoARQeu3Sz9KUzJhaw), and YouTube (https://youtu.be/iJ2uq5r0FyA)! On the show today, we have Zach Messler (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/), messaging consultant and educator. Before moving into being a consultant, Zach was heading product marketing at Appian. Zach’s been doing product marketing and messaging for over 20 years. Here’s what’s covered in our episode: 01:17 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=77s) The Evolution of Messaging in Product Marketing 18:28 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=1108s) Understanding Audience Resonance and Feedback 23:04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=1384s) Distinguishing Between Messaging and Copy 29:38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=1778s) The Simplicity of Messaging 30:56 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=1856s) Understanding Message Clarity 32:06 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=1926s) Conciseness vs. Completeness in Messaging 35:36 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=2136s) Awareness of Bias in Messaging 38:57 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=2337s) The Key to Effective Product Marketing 48:46 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=2926s) Flipping the Message for Audience Engagement 50:07 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2uq5r0FyA&t=3007s) Living with Purpose and Love Where to find Zach: * Website: https://zachmessler.com/ (https://zachmessler.com/) * LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/) Where to find Josh: * Newsletter: ⁠https://onmessaging.substack.com/⁠ (https://onmessaging.substack.com/) * LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) Referenced: * We're Not Marketers: ⁠https://www.notmarketers.com/ (https://www.notmarketers.com/) * Gomocha: ⁠https://www.gomocha.com/ (https://www.gomocha.com/) * Wynter: ⁠ (wynter.com)https://wynter.com/ (https://wynter.com/) * The 4-Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss: ⁠https://fourhourworkweek.com/ ⁠ (https://fourhourworkweek.com/ ) * Message Clarity Workshop: ⁠ (https://zachmessler.com/message-clarity-intensive/)https://zachmessler.com/message-clarity-intensive/⁠ (https://zachmessler.com/message-clarity-intensive/) * Zach Messler: ⁠https://zachmessler.com/⁠ (https://zachmessler.com/) Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it. Created by Josh Chronister I interview the best B2B product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

17. 

    24 Dec 2024

    Welcome to On Messaging

    Hey everyone, welcome to On Messaging. I’m your host Josh Chronister. Creating product messaging that actually resonates with buyers is one of the most difficult tasks of being a product marketer. You get it. A lot goes into crafting quality messaging, but you’re still left wondering if it’s good enough to push ‘publish’, and share across the company. This is the show for product marketers to learn how to craft messaging that resonates emotionally with the buyer, builds credibility, differentiates from the competition and gets in front of your ideal customer. Join me twice a month as I sit down with top messaging experts and in-house product marketers to dig into the stories, skills, and advice from our friends who are crafting messaging that resonates every day. On Messaging launched February 4th, 2025. Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit onmessaging.substack.com (https://onmessaging.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

Who has been a guest on On Messaging

Names identified in recent episode analyses. Showing up to five guests.

• Devon O’Rourke
• Yi Lin Pei
• Talya Heller
• Ryan Yackel
• Madeleine Work

Reach and audience

Public platform figures. Ratings count people who left a rating, not total listeners.

YouTube views

4,131

Score snapshot 15 Sept 2025

Apple Podcasts (US)

5.0 / 5

8 ratings

Podcast Authority Score: 24 / 100

A composite of feed quality, social presence, YouTube performance and engagement. Read the methodology.

Quality

8

Social presence

0

YouTube

68

Engagement

32