by Pella Thiel
On the Rights of Nature - we follow the transformative movement where people, by challenging the foundations of law, shift the story of how human society relates with the living world. In this podcast we will explore the emergence of expanding legal frameworks to include nature; rivers, lakes, mountains and land. We will hear from academics, activists, lawyers and indigenous voices who are doing this profound work.
Language
🇺🇲
Publishing Since
3/26/2025
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June 18, 2026
<p>Niels de Fraguier is an ecopreneur, coalition-builder, and expert in regenerative business working at the intersection of nature, governance, and future generations. He is the author of the books The Regenerative Enterprise and Cartography of Inner Worlds. <a href="https://theregenerativeenterprise.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">The Regenerative Enterprise</a> offers a visionary and practical pathway for entrepreneurs wanting to combine economic prosperity, positive social impact and ecological regeneration.<br /> <br /> Niels is the co-founder of Vivøices, a not-for-profit initiative focused on giving nature and future generations a voice in governance. Through research, training, experiments, and nature shareholding, Niels is committed to democratising access to future-fit governance models.<br /> <br /> His work centers on systemic change, inclusion, and regenerative economics, with a strong emphasis on designing institutions that recognize the interests of the living world alongside the wide diversity of human stakeholders. <br /> <br /></p> <p>LINKS: </p> <p>Vivøices website<br /> <a href= "https://www.vivoices.org/">https://www.vivoices.org/</a></p> <p>The Bill for representation of nature in companies (french)<br /> <a href= "https://www.vivoices.org/blog/notre-proposition-de-loi-pour-repr%C3%A9senter-la-nature-en-entreprise-avec-le-d%C3%A9put%C3%A9-charles-fournier"> https://www.vivoices.org/blog/notre-proposition-de-loi-pour-repr%C3%A9senter-la-nature-en-entreprise-avec-le-d%C3%A9put%C3%A9-charles-fournier</a></p> <p>Article: Rethinking Generation<br /> <a href= "https://niels-defraguier.medium.com/rethinking-generation-an-invitation-to-embrace-a-life-centered-approach-c95138160124"> https://niels-defraguier.medium.com/rethinking-generation-an-invitation-to-embrace-a-life-centered-approach-c95138160124</a></p> <p>Book: The Regenerative Enterprise<br /> <a href= "https://theregenerativeenterprise.com/">https://theregenerativeenterprise.com/</a></p>
May 14, 2026
<p id="docs-internal-guid-88a0960e-7fff-1cf9-d2c0-513ba67dee78" dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> This episode I am joined by Mari Margil, the Executive Director of the US Center for Democratic and Environmental Rights, to talk about their pioneering initiative to develop new frameworks where land can own itself. Mari is one of those pioneers in the rights of nature movement. She has served as the Associate Director of the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF). In 2008, she acted as a consultant to Ecuador's national Constituent Assembly, helping to draft the world's first rights of nature constitutional provisions. Mari works with national and local governments, tribal nations, indigenous communities and NGOs in Australia, the Philippines, Nepal, Sweden and elsewhere, to advance legal and policy frameworks regarding rights of nature. </span></p> <p> </p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Mari Margil supported us to write a proposal for including the rights of nature in the constitution of Sweden. This was then developed into a parliamentary motion by the green party, which has been presented several times. It was denied again just a few weeks ago. It is difficult to introduce RoN into law, which is why innovative measures like the land that owns itself is so interesting. </span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> </p> <p id="docs-internal-guid-86252885-7fff-0ad4-cd2c-8d1326d6ae6e" dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> LINKS:</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> <br /></span><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mari Margil Center for Environmental Rights</span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><a style= "text-decoration: none;" href= "https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/team/mari-margil"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/team/mari-margil</span></a></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> The Land that owns itself Center for Environmental Rights</span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><a style= "text-decoration: none;" href= "https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/the-land-that-owns-itself"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/the-land-that-owns-itself</span></a></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> <br /></span><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">First mountain to own itself Center for Environmental Rights</span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><a style= "text-decoration: none;" href= "https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/news/crestone-eagle-pyramid-mtn-becomes-the-first-mountain-to-own-itself-indigenous-led-council-to-serve-as-guardian"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/news/crestone-eagle-pyramid-mtn-becomes-the-first-mountain-to-own-itself-indigenous-led-council-to-serve-as-guardian</span></a></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> <br /></span><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mari Margils text on The Guardian: Our laws make slaves of nature. It's not just humans who need rights</span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><a href= "https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/laws-slaves-nature-humans-rights-environment-amazon"> <span style="text-decoration: none;"><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/laws-slaves-nature-humans-rights-environment-amazon</span></span></a></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> The proposal to amend the swedish constitution with Rights of Nature: </span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><a href= "https://naturensrattigheter.se/2019/05/15/amendment-for-the-rights-of-nature-in-the-constitution-of-sweden/"> <span style="text-decoration: none;"><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://naturensrattigheter.se/2019/05/15/amendment-for-the-rights-of-nature-in-the-constitution-of-sweden/</span></span></a> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> <br /> <br /></span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Earth rights conferences in Sweden </span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> 2017:</span> <a style="text-decoration: none;" href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H82s6kmjr9w"><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H82s6kmjr9w</span></a></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> 2019:</span> <a style="text-decoration: none;" href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHV2dhTk4FE"><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHV2dhTk4FE</span></a></p>
April 23, 2026
<p id="docs-internal-guid-360def42-7fff-3142-b2bd-da5496bc6350" dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> This is a special episode, a conversation between Robert Macfarlane, Pella Thiel and Ingrid Rieser as Macfarlane's remarkable new book,</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Is a River Alive?</span><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, was published in Swedish.<br /> <br /></span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Robert Macfarlane is a British writer and academic, best known for his lyrical books about landscape, nature, place, and language. He is Professor of Literature and the Environmental Humanities at the University of Cambridge, and his works - such as</span> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Mountains of the Mind</span><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">,</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> The Old Ways</span><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">,</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Landmarks</span><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Underland</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> - have won multiple awards, made him one of the leading voices in contemporary nature writing and even made him figure as a potential laureate of the Nobel Prize in literature.</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Is a River Alive?</span> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> is a meandering story about waterbodies and their humans, investigating rivers as subjects with interests, needs, and agency. <br /> <br /></span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> The episode begins with a presentation by Robert, followed by a conversation hosted by Ingrid Rieser in a big lecture hall in KTH Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm. The session ends with great questions from the audience. This is a collaboration with the podcast Forest of Thought and Environmental Humanities Lab at the KTH Royal Institute of Technology.<br /> <br /> <br /></span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> LINKS: </span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Video version here:</span> <a style="text-decoration: none;" href= "https://forestofthought.substack.com/p/live-is-a-river-alive"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://forestofthought.substack.com/p/live-is-a-river-alive</span></a><br /> <br /></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Robert Macfarlane book Is a River Alive?</span> <a style= "text-decoration: none;" href= "https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/455147/is-a-river-alive-by-macfarlane-robert/9780241624814"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/455147/is-a-river-alive-by-macfarlane-robert/9780241624814</span></a><br /> <br /></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> The Swedish version of the book: Har floden ett liv?</span> <a href="https://oceanbooks.se/bok/har-floden-ett-liv/"><span style="text-decoration: none;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://oceanbooks.se/bok/har-floden-ett-liv/</span></span></a> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> <br /> <br /></span></p> <p dir="ltr" style= "line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Environmental Humanities Lab on KTH Sweden -</span> <a style= "text-decoration: none;" href= "https://www.kth.se/ehl/kth-environmental-humanities-laboratory-1.1225452"> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://www.kth.se/ehl/kth-environmental-humanities-laboratory-1.1225452</span></a><br /> <br /> <span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #000000; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Forest of Thought Podcast -</span> <a style= "text-decoration: none;" href= "https://forestofthought.com/"><span style= "font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1155cc; background-color: transparent; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: underline; -webkit-text-decoration-skip: none; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> https://forestofthought.com/</span></a></p>
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On the Rights of Nature - we follow the transformative movement where people, by challenging the foundations of law, shift the story of how human society relates with the living world.
In this podcast we will explore the emergence of expanding legal frameworks to include nature; rivers, lakes, mountains and land. We will hear from academics, activists, lawyers and indigenous voices who are doing this profound work.
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