On the Rights of Nature - we follow the transformative movement where people, by challenging the foundations of law, shift the story of how human society relates with the living world.
In this podcast we will explore the emergence of expanding legal frameworks to include nature; rivers, lakes, mountains and land. We will hear from academics, activists, lawyers and indigenous voices who are doing this profound work.
13. Living beings in organisational governance with Niels de Fraguier
Niels de Fraguier is an ecopreneur, coalition-builder, and expert in regenerative business working at the intersection of nature, governance, and future generations. He is the author of the books The Regenerative Enterprise and Cartography of Inner Worlds. The Regenerative Enterprise (https://theregenerativeenterprise.com/) offers a visionary and practical pathway for entrepreneurs wanting to combine economic prosperity, positive social impact and ecological regeneration.
Niels is the co-founder of Vivøices, a not-for-profit initiative focused on giving nature and future generations a voice in governance. Through research, training, experiments, and nature shareholding, Niels is committed to democratising access to future-fit governance models.
His work centers on systemic change, inclusion, and regenerative economics, with a strong emphasis on designing institutions that recognize the interests of the living world alongside the wide diversity of human stakeholders.
LINKS:
Vivøices website
https://www.vivoices.org/
The Bill for representation of nature in companies (french)
https://www.vivoices.org/blog/notre-proposition-de-loi-pour-repr%C3%A9senter-la-nature-en-entreprise-avec-le-d%C3%A9put%C3%A9-charles-fournier
Article: Rethinking Generation
https://niels-defraguier.medium.com/rethinking-generation-an-invitation-to-embrace-a-life-centered-approach-c95138160124
Book: The Regenerative Enterprise
https://theregenerativeenterprise.com/
14 May 2026
12. The Land that owns itself with Mari Margil
This episode I am joined by Mari Margil, the Executive Director of the US Center for Democratic and Environmental Rights, to talk about their pioneering initiative to develop new frameworks where land can own itself. Mari is one of those pioneers in the rights of nature movement. She has served as the Associate Director of the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF). In 2008, she acted as a consultant to Ecuador's national Constituent Assembly, helping to draft the world's first rights of nature constitutional provisions. Mari works with national and local governments, tribal nations, indigenous communities and NGOs in Australia, the Philippines, Nepal, Sweden and elsewhere, to advance legal and policy frameworks regarding rights of nature.
Mari Margil supported us to write a proposal for including the rights of nature in the constitution of Sweden. This was then developed into a parliamentary motion by the green party, which has been presented several times. It was denied again just a few weeks ago. It is difficult to introduce RoN into law, which is why innovative measures like the land that owns itself is so interesting.
LINKS:
Mari Margil Center for Environmental Rights
https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/team/mari-margil
The Land that owns itself Center for Environmental Rights
https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/the-land-that-owns-itself
First mountain to own itself Center for Environmental Rights
https://www.centerforenvironmentalrights.org/news/crestone-eagle-pyramid-mtn-becomes-the-first-mountain-to-own-itself-indigenous-led-council-to-serve-as-guardian
Mari Margils text on The Guardian: Our laws make slaves of nature. It's not just humans who need rights
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/laws-slaves-nature-humans-rights-environment-amazon
The proposal to amend the swedish constitution with Rights of Nature:
https://naturensrattigheter.se/2019/05/15/amendment-for-the-rights-of-nature-in-the-constitution-of-sweden/
Earth rights conferences in Sweden
2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H82s6kmjr9w
2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHV2dhTk4FE
23 Apr 2026
11. Is a River Alive? with Robert Macfarlane
This is a special episode, a conversation between Robert Macfarlane, Pella Thiel and Ingrid Rieser as Macfarlane's remarkable new book, Is a River Alive?, was published in Swedish.
Robert Macfarlane is a British writer and academic, best known for his lyrical books about landscape, nature, place, and language. He is Professor of Literature and the Environmental Humanities at the University of Cambridge, and his works - such as Mountains of the Mind, The Old Ways, Landmarks, and Underland - have won multiple awards, made him one of the leading voices in contemporary nature writing and even made him figure as a potential laureate of the Nobel Prize in literature. Is a River Alive? is a meandering story about waterbodies and their humans, investigating rivers as subjects with interests, needs, and agency.
The episode begins with a presentation by Robert, followed by a conversation hosted by Ingrid Rieser in a big lecture hall in KTH Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm. The session ends with great questions from the audience. This is a collaboration with the podcast Forest of Thought and Environmental Humanities Lab at the KTH Royal Institute of Technology.
LINKS:
Video version here: https://forestofthought.substack.com/p/live-is-a-river-alive
Robert Macfarlane book Is a River Alive? https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/455147/is-a-river-alive-by-macfarlane-robert/9780241624814
The Swedish version of the book: Har floden ett liv? https://oceanbooks.se/bok/har-floden-ett-liv/ (https://oceanbooks.se/bok/har-floden-ett-liv/)
Environmental Humanities Lab on KTH Sweden - https://www.kth.se/ehl/kth-environmental-humanities-laboratory-1.1225452
Forest of Thought Podcast - https://forestofthought.com/
21 Mar 2026
10. Zoöps: Governance for the Living with Klaas Kuitenbrouwer
Klaas Kuitenbrouwer is the director of the Zoönomic Institute in the Netherlands, one of the organisations with most experience in designing structures for organisational governance from a more-than-human viewpoint. They tend to the roots of the Zoöp movement, supporting organisations to become regenerative by adding a person with a special function: a Speaker for the Living.
Klaas studied history at the University of Utrecht and has since the late 1990s worked at the intersections of culture, technology and ecology. A key element in his work is the intersection of different knowledge practices: technological, artistic, legal, scientific, and nonhuman. Currently he works as a senior researcher at Het Nieuwe Instituut in Rotterdam and was responsible for – among other projects – the Garden of Machines (2015), 51Sprints (2016) and Gardening Mars (2017). He co-curated the Neuhaus Temporary Academy for more-than-human knowledge (2019), where he initiated the Zoöp project. A Zoöp is an organisation that collaborates with the other-than-humans in its operational sphere. Together they work on ecological regeneration and foster the emergence of a regenerative economy, or human-inclusive ecosystem. The Zoöp model can be adopted by all organisations.
https://zoop.earth/en/ (https://zoop.earth/en/)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016328725000461
11 Feb 2026
9. A Voice of Nature with Dominique Hes
Dominique Hes, Voice of Nature on the Board of RegenMelbourne, discusses creating a built environment beneficial for both people and nature, in this interview.
20 Nov 2025
8. The Embassy of the North Sea with Christiane Bosman
Christiane Bosman introduces the Embassy of the North Sea, which advocates for the sea's representation and access through art and public programs, fostering conversations about human and non-human relationships in this interview.
22 Sept 2025
7. Art and Artificial Intelligence speaking for Nature with Nonhuman Nonsense
Leo Fidjeland and Linnea Våglund from Nonhuman Nonsense explore art's role in representing nature, discussing their AI-supported project, Council of Forest, which amplifies nonhuman perspectives on environmental issues in an interview.
15 Aug 2025
6. Rights of nature in Constitutional law - Hugo Echeverria
Attorney Hugo Echeverria discusses Ecuador's constitutional recognition of nature's rights and its impact on environmental law.
30 Jun 2025
5. Rights of Nature in the Philippines - Yolanda Esguerra
Yolanda Esguerra, National Coordinator of the Philippine Misereor Partnership Inc, discusses integrating ecological justice into Philippine systems and the Catholic Church's role in the Rights of Nature movement; this is an interview.
21 May 2025
4. Fire law in aboriginal culture - Oliver Costello
Oliver Costello is a first nations Bundjalung man from the northern rivers of New South Wales in Australia, with a diverse range of personal and professional expertise in culturally connected stewardship. Oliver has extensive experience working within Indigenous land and sea management and conservation and has been particularly interested in empowering Aboriginal perspectives on fire, as well as threatened and culturally significant species. He has set up the Firesticks initiative and currently serves as a director of the Jagun Alliance Aboriginal Corporation and Vice President of the Northern Rivers Fire and Biodiversity Consortium.
This conversation happened in the context of the Small Giants’ Wisdom and Action Forum in Melbourne. Oliver describes his relationship with fire, what he has learnt about fear and how aboriginal people coexist with Country in close relationship with fire. Fire is often perceived as something wild, scary and unpredictable. Oliver explains how fire is actually lawfully responding to its environment. We also talk about complex and sophisticated indigenous protocols around balance and reciprocity.
This is only scratching the surface of Olivers rich experience and multitude of stories. It feels appropriate that we are in a lively place, surrounded by birds and flowers and people and an airplane in this conversation.
Host: Pella Thiel, producer: Fredrik Arestav, music: “Nightjar” by Cosmo Sheldrake, art: Scene from "Thanatopsis" by Asher Brown Durand.
1 May 2025
3. Ecological jurisprudence as a quantum leap of law - Alessandro Pelizzon
Alessandro Pelizzon is associate professor in the School of Law and Society at the University of the Sunshine Coast in Australia. He has been part of the movement for rights of nature since its inception as a co-founder of the Global Alliance for the Rights of Nature, the current chair of GARN’s Academic Hub, and an expert member of the UN Harmony with Nature programme. Alessandros classical education has led him to go far back in time to find the legal and philosophical roots of the norms and perceptions we navigate today, something he eloquently develops in his new book Ecological Jurisprudence – the law of nature and the nature of law (https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-96-0173-8). The book is open source and a keystone publication in understanding the roots of the developing field of rights of nature. We speak about the ethical grounds of ecological jurisprudence, how placing law in an ecological context is a development of law comparable with how quantum physics expanded physics, and much more.
Host: Pella Thiel, producer: Fredrik Arestav, music: “Nightjar” by Cosmo Sheldrake, art: Scene from "Thanatopsis" by Asher Brown Durand.
14 Apr 2025
2. Eduardo Salazar Ortuño - Mar Menor, first case of legal personhood in Europe
Eduardo Salazar Ortuño is an environmental lawyer. Together with professor of law Teresa Vicente Giménez, he supported the salt water lagoon Mar Menor in Spain to attain legal personhood, as the first ecosystem in Europe. Eduardo has been practicing environmental law for 20 years. He is an expert on the Aarhus Convention, which empowers citizens and NGOs to defend the environment using access to information, public participation, and access to justice. Eduardo talks us through the process of getting the legal subjectivity of Mar Menor acknowledged and the importance of leadership from civil society. He explains how representation of the lagoon is developing through tutorship (representation), informed by the example of Río Atrato in Colombia. Eduardo also shares how rights of nature shifted his own perspective as a lawyer, and the importance of his personal connection to Mar Menor.
Host: Pella Thiel, producer: Fredrik Arestav, music: “Nightjar” by Cosmo Sheldrake, art: Scene from "Thanatopsis" by Asher Brown Durand.
29 Mar 2025
1. Craig M. Kauffman - An academics way to Rights of Nature
Craig Kauffman is a professor of political science at the University of Oregon and author of the book The Politics of Rights of Nature together with Pamela L Martin. Craig is one of the first academics to engage with the rights of nature. He gives an overview of how rights of nature frameworks started to emerge simultaneously in different parts of the world as a response from common pressures that communities were facing, where they experienced how the law did not protect them or their lands. Craig has been part of developing the Eco Jurisprudence Monitor (https://ecojurisprudence.org/), a tool to keep track of the emerging field of ecological jurisprudence; legal initiatives that transcends anthropocentric law. They have been growing exponentially since those first steps almost 20 years ago, and at the time of recording there are 500+ documented cases.
Host: Pella Thiel, producer: Fredrik Arestav, music: “Nightjar” by Cosmo Sheldrake, art: Scene from "Thanatopsis" by Asher Brown Durand.
26 Mar 2025
Introduction to On the Rights of Nature with Pella Thiel
Welcome to On the Rights of Nature! In this podcast we will explore the emergence of expanding legal frameworks to include nature; rivers, lakes, mountains and land. We will hear from academics, activists, lawyers and indigenous voices who are doing this profound work.
Pella Thiel, ecologist, author and teacher living in Sweden, will be your host. In my view, Rights of nature is a necessary foundation for the transformation we find ourselves in, to orient towards regeneration and peace.
With over a decade in this vibrant movement I am delighted for the opportunity to share the exciting stores from the people who make rights of nature go from a good idea to a lived reality.
I could not do this without my brilliant producer Fredrik Arestav. A big thank you to Cosmo Sheldrake for the music.
Hope to see you along the way!
Who has been a guest on On the Rights of Nature
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Christiane Bosman
Leo Fidjeland
Linnea Våglund
Hugo Echeverria
Yolanda Esguerra
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