Oriental Journeys

About Oriental Journeys

Guided and inspired by Ibn Battuta’s (d.1369) footsteps, in a series of conversations with international scholars and prominent practitioners, the Oriental Journeys Podcast aims to deliver intriguing, historically accurate, relatable, curiosity-provoking and well-researched episodes that open a portal into the world of the East for people who are curious about the past, contemplate the wonders of cities and hunger for the marvels of travelling.

Publisher

Rey Behboudi & Kate O'Connell

Category

history

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

28 May 2023

Latest episode

12 Sept 2026

Latest episodes

12 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   12 Sept 2026

   Bookish Societies: Social and Cultural History of Knowledge Transmission in the Islamic World with Konrad Hirschler

   In the 14th century, Ibn Battuta’s travel accounts vividly captured great cities such as Cairo and Damascus. Far more than busy urban centers, these cities were dynamic cultural hubs that actively shaped how knowledge was preserved and shared in the Middle Ages. Rihla’s eyewitness stories reveal a bustling educational scene: lively scholarly reading sessions, numerous grand and local colleges [madrasas] catering to different Islamic schools, free primary education for children, and a massive ...

2. 

   21 Feb 2026

   Musk: A Little Scent of Heaven on Earth with Anya King

   Musk-a strongly scented substance and highly-prized commodity, has a long and captivating history. Famed throughout the world in late antiquity – especially the Sasanian Empire in Iran - with the emergence of Islam, musk attained a distinctive position. For centuries, the sensual fragrance of musk has been synonymous with the rare and exalted: indispensable to royal treasuries; an integral part of religious practices at the shrines and later onto the shelves of pharmacists and parfumiers in t...

3. 

   24 Oct 2025

   Ibadis of Maghrib: Community Building through Peoples and Texts With Paul Love

   The Ibadi Muslims, a little-known community, have lived in towns and villages of North Africa for over a thousand years. This Muslim community originated from Basra in 7th century, found their way in 8th century in part of the north Africa- also called the Maghrib - and evolved throughout Middle Ages. Passing through a turbulent history, Ibadi Muslims developed a unique system of knowledge transmission, combining peoples and texts with the holy mission of preserving their traditions beyond ge...

4. 

   8 May 2025

   Treasure Trove: Delicious Delicacies of a 14th Century Cookbook with Nawal Nasrallah

   Kanz al-fawāʾid or Treasure Trove is the enticing title of a medieval Egyptian cookbook, written by an anonymous author. This exceptional text comes from the Mamluks era, in the 14th century- and it preserves a variety of delicious delicacies and their various benefits for the modern reader. Compiled from multiple sources, the cookbook includes more than 800 colorful recipes earnestly detailed and carefully explained. Reflecting a delightful culinary snapshot of this region and era, the ...

5. 

   21 Nov 2024

   The Arabs: In Search of Identity and Solidarity in the Murky Centuries with Tim Mackintosh-Smith

   Acclaimed historian Tim Mackintosh-Smith explores the evolving shared values and identity of the Arab world across three millennia, revealing a rich tapestry of solidarity and diversity.

6. 

   7 Apr 2024

   Kohl: A Cultural History of a Distinctive Fine Line with Zahra Hankir

   Kohl is a generic term for a cosmetic eyeliner made using naturally-sourced materials, a pulverized powder which darkens the edges of the eyelids. A cosmetic with a long and captivating history, kohl has been widely used by men, women and children throughout the ages across swathes of Africa and Asia, altering the appearance for a range of purposes and effects. In this episode, we will trace the history of kohl to its known origin and will unveil the depth and multi-dimensionality of this near-universal make-up. Zahra Hankir in her latest book Eyeliner: A Cultural History explores the intersections of history, culture, and society over the ubiquitous cosmetic: eyeliner. She traces the history of the naturally-sourced eyeliner commonly known as kohl, over millennia. She traverses space, time, and cultures to delve into the deeply human importance of a makeup tool which symbolizes power, religiosity, and commitment to moral codes. What we cover in this episode · What’s Kohl? · What do we know about the historic roots of kohl? · What has inspired Muslim communities to apply kohl? · What were the various ingredients of sormeh in Iran? · What role does kajal play in Indian traditional dancing? Conversation key insight · I hope people would realise that when they are wearing eyeliner, it carries much more than just an aesthetic, it carries history. · When you start seeing eyeliner you can’t unsee it, you can see it pretty much everywhere. · Eyeliner lent Nefertiti a very regal look and helped her to channel her power. · Muslim communities around the world have been wearing eyeliner not just as a form of protection of their eyes but also as a channel to practice their religiosity, because it’s sunnah, because it’s the way of prophet. · Juniper tree bark and Farsetia plants are widely-used for kohl-making among bedouin communities living across Jordan, Palestine and Lebanon. · In Iran, nuts are being used to produce sormeh: walnut, hazelnut, pistachio. Also, precious stones including pearls, emeralds, rubies, diamonds, gold, and silver were crushed, and the powder was used to form the most prestigious and expensive sormeh, this substance was called the sormeh of Seven Jewels. · Kajal is worn in a very distinct way in in performance art in India. In kathakali dance, eyes are decorated and adorned very heavily and can indicate the qualities of the characters. Eyeliner plays a big role in dances and performances in making the eyes very distinctly visible from afar, so people in the audience can be drawn into the eyes. Terms · Ḥalāl (Arabic): Permissible according to the Islamic laws · Eid (Arabic): A religious holiday A passage from the book Next came my journey from Cairo by the route of the Sa'id, with the object of crossing the noble Hijaz. I stayed on the night following my departure at the convent which Sahib Taj al-Din ibn Hanna' built at Dair al-Tin. It is an enormous convent built by him for the sake of certain possessions of great pride and illustrious relics that he deposited in it, namely, a fragment of the wooden basin of the Prophet, the pencil with which he used to apply kohl to his eyes, the dirafsh, that is to say, the awl, which he used for sewing his sandals, and the Qur'an of the Commander of the Faithful 'Ali b. Abi Talib, written in his own hand. [Travels of Ibn Battuta translated by Hamilton Gibbs, Hakluyt Society] We acknowledge the Aboriginal peoples as the enduring Custodians of the land from where this podcast is produced.

7. 

   10 Jan 2024

   Hajj Mahmal: The Semiotics of Pilgrimage Carriage with Richard J. A. McGregor

   A ‘Mahmal’ was an empty, richly decorated carriage, which was mounted on a camel and journeyed annually from Cairo to accompany the Hajj pilgrim caravan to Mecca. On his journey toward Mecca in year 1326, Ibn Battuta was lucky enough to witness the illustrious mahmal procession ceremony in the bustling streets of Cairo. In this episode, we try to unfold the meaning of this devotional object and associated practices. Professor Richard J. A. McGregor explores religion at the intersections of philosophy, theology, aesthetics, and embodiment. His latest book Islam and the Devotional Object: Seeing Religion in Egypt and Syria published by Cambridge University Press traces the turbulent lives of key religious objects: the precious dress sewn for the Ka’ba: Kiswa, and large colorful sedan chairs mounted on camels: the Hajj Mahmal. What we cover in this episode What is the Hajj mahmal The role of Egypt in dispatching annual Hajj Mahmal to Mecca The historic, social, and political context of Hajj Mahmal Conversation key insights Mahmal guards its secrets; there are plenty of outstanding questions that we have never been able to answer. The guiding structure of the Islamic calendar is pilgrimage. Making a Kiswah, the dress covering the Ka’ba, happens every year, from pre-Islamic era up until today. The political story of producing and dispatching both Kiswa and Mahmal has been always an inextricable part of the ritual. We can mark middle of the 13th century to the early of 20th for the Egyptian Mahmal, we can call it Cairene Egyptian Mahmal Parades. With the rise of the House of Saud, inspired by Wahhabi version of Islam, mahmal ritual entered the last chapter of its 700 years life. Mahmal was not simply a symbol of a royal authority, instead it had a rich interpersonal life with Muslims all along its life at each stage. The energy of mahmal ceremony was contagious, whether you are Egyptian, Copt, Muslim, or non-Muslim, the Mahmal would get you. Terms Barakah: Blessing Zovvar: plural for Zaer, pilgrim A passage from the book This is the day of the procession of the Mahmil round the city, a festival day. Their ceremonial on this day is as follows. The four Grand jurists, the Intendant of the Treasury, and the Muhtasib, all are mounted, and along with them ride the principal jurists, the syndics of the heads of corporations, and the officers of state. They all proceed together to the gate of the citadel, the residence of al-Malik al-Nasir, whereupon the mahmil comes out to meet them, borne on a camel,  and preceded by the amir who has been designated for the journey to the Hijaz in that year. All classes of the population, both men and women, assemble for this ceremony, then they go in procession with the mahmil round the two cities of al-Qahira and Misr.... This takes place in Rajab, and thereupon resolves are inflamed, desires are excited, and impulses are stirred up, and God Most High casts into the heart of whom He will of His servants the determination to set out upon the Pilgrimage, so they start to equip themselves and to make preparations for it. [The Travels of Ibn Battuta, Translated by Hamilton Gibbs,  Hakluyt Society] Recommended reading Islam and the Devotional Object: Seeing Religion in Egypt and Syria (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/islam-and-the-devotional-object/C80CF983A16FF1A3B19C9DE3E97B35A4#:~:text=Book%20description,destined%20for%20Mecca%20and%20Medina.), Richard J. A. We acknowledge the Aboriginal peoples as the enduring Custodians of the land from where this podcast is produced.

8. 

   24 Nov 2023

   Mamluks II: The Sultanate of Slaves? With Doris Behrens-Abouseif

   Inspired by Ibn Battuta observations from Cairo in the 14th century, in this episode we walk through Cairo at the time of the Mamluks (13th-16th CE) and reach across the ages to touch upon dazzling facets of the city, as well as the sultanate - with a guest whose heart is always in Cairo. Doris Behrens-Abouseif is Professor Emerita at SOAS, University of London. Her many publications encompass a wide range of subjects within socio-cultural and art historical contexts, with a focus on Egypt and Syria covering architecture, urbanism, material culture and the decorative arts. She has written a widely-admired book on the golden era of the city, Cairo of the Mamluks: a history of the architecture and its culture. What we cover in this episode Cairo of the Mamluks: cityscape, socio-cultural, political, and religious landscape Mamluks’ contribution to Cairo’s evolution into a metropolis Why the Mamluks supported a multi-rite policy, respecting all branches of Islam Why the Mamluks so generously supported the Sufis and Sufi foundations Why the Mamluks were fond of amusement and ceremonies. Conversation key insights ‘Mamluk rulers were ambitious builders, with the urban vision to expand the city’s boundaries. A collective building activity - to have as many buildings, mosques, minarets, baths, charities, as possible - was representative of the Mamluks’ identity and patronage.’ ‘With a non-hereditary succession system, the Mamluks focus’ was on building and construction of monuments, as a strategy to leave their mark on history: to not be forgotten and to be commemorated after their death’. ‘The stability of Egypt, at the time of Mamluks, being safe from the external threats, encouraged many migrants to come to Cairo from the territories in the East and beyond, to reside, study, and make commerce in Cairo’. ‘There was a distinct caste in Mamluks’ society, between Man of the Pen (learned locals to hold positions like judges and scholars) and Man of the Sword (Mamluks in military positions), who were identifiable by their dress codes’. ‘Ethnicity and religious identity played a key role in the medieval setting, rather than national identity’. ‘Sufism worked as a melting-pot across the Muslim world, whereby people from different origins could find a common platform’. ‘Parade and processions were an integral part of the communication between sultans and its people at the era of Mamluks’. Terms Maristan [Bimarestan]: hospital khanaqah: Sufi hospice A passage from the book It is said that in Cairo there are twelve thousand water-carriers who transport water on camels, and thirty thousand hirers of mules and donkeys, and that on its Nile there are thirty-six thousand vessels belonging to the Sultan and his subjects, which sail upstream to Upper Egypt and downstream to Alexandria and Dumyat, laden with goods and commodities of all kinds. On the bank of the Nile opposite Cairo is the place known as al-Rawda ['the Garden'], which is a pleasure park and promenade, containing many beautiful gardens. The people of Cairo are fond of pleasure and amusement. I once witnessed a fete there which was held for al-Malik al-Nasir's recovery from a fracture which he had suffered in his hand. All the merchants decorated their bazaars and had rich stuff, ornaments, and silken fabrics hung up in their shops for several days [The Travels of Ibn Battuta, translated by Hamilton Gibbs, Hakluyt Society] Recommended reading Dress and Dress Code in Medieval Cairo: A Mamluk Obsession, Doris Behrens-Abouseif, Brill, 2023 (https://brill.com/display/title/20156) We acknowledge the Aboriginal peoples as the enduring Custodians of the land from where this podcast is produced.

9. 

   24 Nov 2023

   Mamluks I: The Sultanate of Slaves? With Doris Behrens-Abouseif

   Inspired by Ibn Battuta observations from Cairo in the 14th century, in this episode we walk through Cairo at the time of the Mamluks (13th-16th CE) and reach across the ages to touch upon dazzling facets of the city, as well as the sultanate - with a guest whose heart is always in Cairo. Doris Behrens-Abouseif is Professor Emerita at SOAS, University of London. Her many publications encompass a wide range of subjects within socio-cultural and art historical contexts, with a focus on Egypt and Syria covering architecture, urbanism, material culture and the decorative arts. She has written a widely-admired book on the golden era of the city, Cairo of the Mamluks: a history of the architecture and its culture. What we cover in this episode The Mamluks' origin, sultanate, historic context Territories ruled under the Mamluks sultanate An Impression on the prosperity held within the mega-city of Cairo during Mamluks era Conversation key insights ‘Walking through the medieval Cairo should have been an overwhelming experience for any traveller, in terms of the size, the density of population, the wealth of its monuments, the luxury of goods, richness of markets and its cosmopolitan character.’ ‘Mamluks’ was the period which created the medieval Cairo: there is something fascinating about this old Cairo which has held great appeal for intellectuals like Najib Mahfuz and Hussain Fawzi.’ ‘Mamluks were neither a dynasty nor slaves. They were not a dynasty because their succession system, despite the exceptions, was mainly non-hereditary; on the contrary, the system mainly worked based on a system of appointment and recruitment.’ ‘In conjunction with their religious patronage, Mamluks were trusted because they fulfilled the challenge of military expectations by standing up against and repelling the Mongols and Crusaders.’ ‘Egypt, Greater Syria - including Lebanon, Palestine, and a big part of southeast Turkey - were all part of the Mamluks’ territories; they had also the privilege of being the guardians of the holy cities in Hijaz: Mecca and Medina.’ Terms El-Qahira: Cairo A passage from the book I arrived at length at the city of Misr [Cairo], mother of cities and seat of Pharaoh the tyrant, mistress of broad provinces and fruitful lands, boundless in multitude of buildings, peerless in beauty and splendour, the meeting place of comer and goer, the stopping-place of feeble and strong. Therein is what you will have of learned and simple, grave and gay, prudent and foolish, base and noble, of high estate and low estate, unknown and famous; she surges as the waves of the sea with her throngs of folk and can scarce contain them for all the capacity of her situation and sustaining power. Her youth | is ever new in spite of the length of days, and the star of her horoscope does not move from the mansion of fortune; her conquering capital has subdued the nations, and her kings have grasped the forelocks of both Arab and non-Arab. She has as her peculiar possession the majestic Nile...; her territory is a month's journey for a hastening traveller, of generous soil, and extending a friendly welcome to strangers [The Travels of Ibn Battuta, translated by Hamilton Gibbs, Hakluyt Society] Recommended reading Cairo of the Mamluks: a history of the architecture and its culture, Doris Behrens-Abouseif, I.B.Tauris: London, 2007.  (https://aucpress.com/9789774160776/) سندباد مصری، حسين فوزي، دار المعارف، 1969 We acknowledge the Aboriginal peoples as the enduring Custodians of the land from where this podcast is produced.

10. 

    28 May 2023

    The Call of Caravan III: In Search of Ibn Battuta with Tim Mackintosh-Smith

    In this episode we will explore Ibn Battuta's multiple motivations for stepping into 29 years of traveling and search to find out more about his multifaceted personality with Tim Mackintosh-Smith who has dedicated his life tracing Ibn Battuta. Tim Mackintosh-Smith is a British, Oxford-educated Arabist, writer, traveller, translator and lecturer, based in Yemen for many decades but currently nomadic. He is one of the foremost scholars of the Moroccan traveler, Ibn Battuta. Mackintosh-Smith has published a trilogy recounting his journeys in the footnotes of Ibn Battuta: Travels with A Tangerine (2001), The Hall of a Thousand Columns (2005) and Landfalls (2010). In 2007, Mackintosh-Smith presented a major BBC documentary series, Travels with a Tangerine, recounting his experiences tracing Ibn Battuta's fourteenth-century travels in the present day. In 2016 he published an edited abridgement of The Travels of Ibn Battuta with Macmillan Collector's Library. What we cover in this episode Ibn Battuta multiple motivations for stepping into 29 years of traveling. Ibn Battuta’s dream in Munyat and its interpretation. Multilayered personality of Ibn Battuta. Conversation key insights 'Never so far as possible to cover a second time any road’ [A quote by Ibn Battuta in his Travels]. ‘Ibn Battuta is a very attractive character: fun to meet, he has a big head but also a big heart.’ 'Most travelers follow a path…When you look at Ibn Battuta's path, it is like a crazy spider or something running across the world. It is only when you look into his motivations does it begin to have its own logic. He was always in search of something.’ ‘Ibn Battuta saw humanity in everyone.’ Recommended reading The Travels of Ibn Battuta, edited by Tim Mackintosh-Smith, Macmillan Collector's Library, 2016. (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781909621473/thetravelsofibnbattutah) Thanks to the episode contributors: Kate O’Connell | Editor, Creative Consultant Aydogan Kars (https://research.monash.edu/en/persons/aydogan-kars) | Academic Advisor Ashkan Bahrani (https://research.monash.edu/en/persons/ashkan-bahrani) | Academic Advisor Frank Youakim | Narrator Ali Gorgin | Music Tia Goodwin | Cover art designer We acknowledge the Aboriginal peoples as the enduring Custodians of the land from where this podcast is produced.

11. 

    28 May 2023

    The Call of Caravan II: In Search of Ibn Battuta with Tim Mackintosh-Smith

    In this episode we will explore how the Travels of Ibn Battuta has been written and why the Travels is an important historic source with Tim Mackintosh-Smith who has dedicated his life tracing Ibn Battuta. Tim Mackintosh-Smith is a British, Oxford-educated Arabist, writer, traveller, translator and lecturer, based in Yemen for many decades but currently nomadic. He is one of the foremost scholars of the Moroccan traveler, Ibn Battuta. Mackintosh-Smith has published a trilogy recounting his journeys in the footnotes of Ibn Battuta: Travels with A Tangerine (2001), The Hall of a Thousand Columns (2005) and Landfalls (2010). In 2007, Mackintosh-Smith presented a major BBC documentary series, Travels with a Tangerine, recounting his experiences tracing Ibn Battuta's fourteenth-century travels in the present day. In 2016 he published an edited abridgement of The Travels of Ibn Battuta with Macmillan Collector's Library. What we cover in this episode Some of the Ibn Battuta’s observations on Yemen How the Travels of Ibn Battuta has been written What makes Ibn Battuta and his travels special Why the Travels of Ibn Battuta is an important historic source Rihla genre in the Islamic literature Ibn Battuta’s profile and character Conversation key insights ‘As a historical observer Ibn Battuta can be every exact.’ ‘The travelogue is a witness to history, politics, architecture and believes. Ibn Battuta Travels is like a slice through time. Ibn Battuta was a historian despite himself, he was a geographer despite himself. You can get a history by chance in his Travels. We would not know a lot about the history of that time if not for Ibn Battuta Travels.’ A Passage from the book ‘My departure from Tangier, my birthplace, took place on Thursday the second of the month of God, Rajab the Unique, in the year seven hundred and twenty-five, with the object of making the Pilgrimage to the Holy House [at Mecca] and of visiting the tomb of the Prophet, God's richest blessing and peace be on him [at Medina]. I set out alone, having neither fellow-traveller in whose companionship I might find cheer, nor caravan whose party I might join, but swayed by an overmastering impulse within me and a desire long-cherished in my bosom to visit these illustrious sanctuaries. So I braced my resolution to quit all my dear ones, female and male, and forsook my home as birds forsake their nests. My parents being yet in the bonds of life, it weighed sorely upon me to part from them, and both they and I were afflicted with sorrow at this separation. My age at that time was twenty-two [lunar] years.’ [The Travel of Ibn Battuta, translated by H. A. R Gibb, The Hakluyt Society, volume 1, page 8, paragraph 13] Recommended reading The Travels of Ibn Battuta, edited by Tim Mackintosh-Smith, Macmillan Collector's Library, 2016. (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781909621473/thetravelsofibnbattutah) The Travels of Ibn Jubayr, translated by Ronald Broadhurst, Good word Books, 2007.  (https://www.goodwordbooks.com/products/travels-of-ibn-jubayr) Thanks to the episode contributors: Kate O’Connell | Editor, Creative Consultant Aydogan Kars (https://research.monash.edu/en/persons/aydogan-kars) | Academic Advisor Ashkan Bahrani (https://research.monash.edu/en/persons/ashkan-bahrani) | Academic Advisor Frank Youakim | Narrator Ali Gorgin | Music Tia Goodwin | Cover art designer < We acknowledge the Aboriginal peoples as the enduring Custodians of the land from where this podcast is produced.

12. 

    28 May 2023

    The Call of Caravan I: In Search of Ibn Battuta with Tim Mackintosh-Smith

    In the first episode we will explore Ibn Battuta's travelogue, and search to find out more about him and his travels with a guest who has dedicated his life tracing Ibn Battuta. Tim Mackintosh-Smith is a British, Oxford-educated Arabist, writer, traveller, translator and lecturer, based in Yemen for many decades but currently nomadic. He is one of the foremost scholars of the Moroccan traveler, Ibn Battuta. Mackintosh-Smith has published a trilogy recounting his journeys in the footnotes of Ibn Battuta: Travels with A Tangerine (2001), The Hall of a Thousand Columns (2005) and Landfalls (2010). In 2007, Mackintosh-Smith presented a major BBC documentary series, Travels with a Tangerine, recounting his experiences tracing Ibn Battuta's fourteenth-century travels in the present day. In 2016 he published an edited abridgement of The Travels of Ibn Battuta with Macmillan Collector's Library. What we cover in this episode Some of the most mind blowing experiences Tim has encountered in his journey tracing Ibn Battuta travel route. Some fascinating layers of Ibn Battuta character. Why Tim decided to retrace Ibn Battuta travel path with the space of 700 years. Conversation key insights ‘Marco Polo is a bit of stick figure... Ibn Battuta in comparison is a fully rounded character' [Ross E. Dunn, The Adventures of Ibn Battuta: A Muslim Traveler of the Fourteenth Century, University of California Press, 2012]. ‘Literature is what collapses time…. Get inside this book and you can cross time'. ‘Ibn Battuta seeing a widow woman jumping into the fire, he has reported the horror of the scene which has been horrific to a Muslim observer or to most people, I saw the traces of the fire, it was like seeing a ghost but ghost didn’t go away, I was almost overcome by myself, it was a very creepy place, you can get inside the book and cross time, like a time travel, but that’s only one from many places, that was the most striking.’ A passage from the book ‘We came to a little island in that archipelago in which there was but one house, | occupied by a weaver. He had a wife and family, a few coco-palms and a small boat, with which he used to fish and to cross over to any of the islands he wished to visit. His island contained also banana bushes, but we saw no land birds on it except two crows, which came out to us on our arrival and circled above our vessel. And I swear I envied that man, and wished that the island had been mine, that I might have made it my retreat until the inevitable hour should befall me.’ [The Travels of Ibn Battuta, translated by H. A. R Gibbs, The Hakluyt Society, volume 3, page 845, paragraph 163] Recommended reading The Travels of Ibn Battuta, edited by Tim Mackintosh-Smith, Macmillan Collector's Library, 2016. (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781909621473/thetravelsofibnbattutah) The Adventures of Ibn Battuta: A Muslim Traveler of the Fourteenth Century, with a New Preface, Ross E. Dunn, University of California Press. 2012.  (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520272927/the-adventures-of-ibn-battuta) Thanks to the episode contributors: Kate O’Connell | Editor, Creative Consultant Aydogan Kars (https://research.monash.edu/en/persons/aydogan-kars) | Academic Advisor Ashkan Bahrani (https://research.monash.edu/en/persons/ashkan-bahrani) | Academic Advisor Frank Youakim | Narrator Ali Gorgin | Music Tia Goodwin | Cover art designer We acknowledge the Aboriginal peoples as the enduring Custodians of the land from where this podcast is produced.

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