Outlaw's Evidence of the Unseen

About Outlaw's Evidence of the Unseen

Exceptional discussions for those of us on the outside. Join hosts Ray Curenton and Tim Dillinger for uncensored, unfiltered, and unraveled conversations that weave together history, faith, arts, and social politics into the fabric of our greater cultural narrative. There's always an exception to the rule.

Publisher

Ray Curenton & Tim Dillinger

Category

religion & spirituality

Language

en

Explicit

Yes

First episode

5 Sept 2021

Latest episode

13 Jun 2025

Latest episodes

12 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   13 Jun 2025

   SPECIAL — God's Not Dead: Unpacking the Michael Tait Allegations

   Who said a finale had to be final? In this very special episode, Tim and Ray dust off the mics to delve into the recent sexual assault allegations against Michael Tait, a prominent figure in Christian music, including his time with DC Talk and the Newsboys. The conversation highlights the broader issues of sexual misconduct, substance abuse, and the hypocrisy within the Christian music industry. The hosts critique the industry's inconsistent handling of scandals, particularly the forgiveness of men over women. They also reflect on the lack of affirming voices for LGBTQ+ individuals in Christian music. The episode concludes with updates on the hosts' personal projects, including new music releases and ongoing work. Content warning: sexual assault, substance abuse, spiritual harm. Resources/References: “EXCLUSIVE: Former Newsboys Frontman Michael Tait Accused of Sexual Assault, Grooming, and Substance Abuse, Dating Back to 2004” (https://julieroys.com/former-newsboys-frontman-michael-tait-accused-sexual-assault-grooming-substance-abuse-dating-back-to-2004/) by Jessica Morris | The Roys Report “Julie Roys and LGBTQ+ People” (https://www.celestefinally.com/p/julie-roys-and-lgbtq-people) by Celeste Irwin | Celestial Navigation “Michael Tait Breaks Silence” (https://www.ccmmagazine.com/news/michael-tait-breaks-silence-my-confession/) by CCM Magazine Follow Tim Dillinger at God’s Music Is My Life: ⁠https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/⁠ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/) Milik Kashad TV: http://www.youtube.com/@MilikKashadTV (http://www.youtube.com/@MilikKashadTV) Follow Ray Curenton: https://raycurenton.com/ (https://raycurenton.com/) Imagination Fury Arts: https://imaginationfuryarts.com/

2. 

   18 Mar 2024

   Honk for Jesus (with Juba Kalamka)

   In the series finale of Outlaw's Evidence of the Unseen, hosts Ray Curenton and Tim Dillinger are joined by artist/activist Juba Kalamka, author of Son of Byford (published by Black Lawrence Press), to discuss Adamma Ebo's mockumentary Honk for Jesus. Save Your Soul., a film that examines the construct of the megachurch and how it intertwines with capitalism, homophobia, and sexism to create a machine through which greed, shame, and power coalesce. Follow Juba Kalamka: @jubakalamka Get Juba’s book, Son of Byford at https://bookshop.org/p/books/son-of-byford-juba-kalamka/18559472?ean=9781955239318 (https://bookshop.org/p/books/son-of-byford-juba-kalamka/18559472?ean=9781955239318) Follow Juba’s band, Commando: @commandosucks Support Juba's music on Bandcamp: https://commandothebando.bandcamp.com/ (https://commandothebando.bandcamp.com/) Follow Tim: @timdillinger Follow Ray: @raycurenton Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/) and listen to his new podcast God’s Music Is My Life at https://tr.ee/UE8VxIegZk (https://tr.ee/UE8VxIegZk) Support Ray’s music on Bandcamp https://raycurenton.bandcamp.com/ (https://raycurenton.bandcamp.com/)

3. 

   7 Jul 2022

   I’m a God Warrior!

   The FOX network once called her frenzy “the most compelling footage ever caught on tape.” We’re talking, of course, about Marguerite Perrin, most commonly known as “The God Warrior.” Tim and Ray revisit both of her classic appearances on the reality show Trading Spouses: Meet Your New Mommy, including her infamous “mother of all meltdowns” that has inspired memes and parodies ever since it first aired in 2005. The hosts discuss how Southern Christian paranoia and fear of the “dork-sided” got its first major mainstream showcase in possibly the most epic moment of reality television ever. Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/) Support Ray’s music on Bandcamp https://raycurenton.bandcamp.com/ (https://raycurenton.bandcamp.com/)

4. 

   25 May 2022

   I Wish We’d All Been Ready

   We’ve been promising it for weeks and here it finally is! In this very special episode, Tim and Ray discuss the Christian obsession with end-time prophesy. In addition to talking about their individual deconstructions around believing in the rapture, our hosts review six of the most well-known rapture films and analyze the use of the promise of an impending apocalypse as an evangelical scare tactic. Time stamps for the start of each film review below: 0:20:03 - A Thief in the Night (1972), dir. Donald W. Thompson 0:52:08 - A Distant Thunder (1978), dir. Donald W. Thompson 1:09:28 - Image of the Beast (1981), dir. Donald W. Thompson 1:31:55 - The Prodigal Planet (1983), dir. Donald W. Thompson 1:40:04 - Left Behind: The Movie (2000), dir. Vic Sarin 1:51:24 - Left Behind (2014), dir. Vic Armstrong Further Reading: “A Thief in the Night: The Christian Apocalyptic Thriller That Spawned an Industry” (https://medium.com/indian-thoughts/a-thief-in-the-night-the-christian-apocalyptic-thriller-that-spawned-an-industry-39f63607e504) by Dustin T. Cox Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/) Support Ray’s new single “Make it with Me” on Bandcamp (https://raycurenton.bandcamp.com/) Purchase Cheryl Wills’ Isn’t Her Grace Amazing!: The Women Who Changed Gospel Music (https://bookshop.org/books/isn-t-her-grace-amazing-the-women-who-changed-gospel-music/9780063050983) at your local bookstore

5. 

   11 Apr 2022

   Hillsong: A Docuseries Reviewed

   G’day, mates! In this episode, our hosts review the new three-part Discovery+ documentary series, Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed. Founded in Sydney, Australia by Brian Houston and made famous through its never-ending worship music products, Hillsong is an international megachurch, media conglomerate, and Christian college mired in a plethora of abuse scandals. Throughout the episode, Tim struggles to retain former Hillsong pastor Carl Lentz’s name (or remember who Chris Pratt is) while also wondering how none of the leadership of the church saw his improprieties coming. Ray contemplates the culture of sexual abuse in evangelicalism and the notion of growth and wealth as false evidence of a church’s righteousness. What pastor isn’t a narcissist? What were people even getting from these Ted Talk sermons? Are evangelical churches meeting or dictating consumer demand? Along the way, they also discuss the obsession with clothes and “looking expensive” in church culture and the dangerousness of “mainstreaming” churches by integrating the conceptions of celebrity, influencers, and prosperity. Is Hillsong an outlier or just a highly visible example of the everyday norm in evangelical churches today? Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/)

6. 

   9 Mar 2022

   Looking for a Miracle

   In this episode, Tim and Ray talk all about science⁠—or more so⁠, all about how science often gets thrown out the window in faith-based communities. What are the origins of this ideological clash? Galileo and his heliocentrism? Darwin and his common ancestors? Are faith healers and their promises of “miraculous healing” completely full of it? Why do evangelicals give more authority to their pastors when it comes to health outcomes and natural phenomena than they do to actual doctors and science experts? Is the Bible ableist? And why do so many Christians keep it a secret (or just flat out ignore it) when they take ill? The hosts close the show discussing how these seemingly personal problems are to the detriment of all of society when played out on a macro-level (think: dominion theology and Christian nationalism), and offer some alternative ideas for reconciliation. Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/)

7. 

   3 Feb 2022

   You Don't Know What You're Missing: Why Andraé Crouch Matters

   He expanded the possibilities of the gospel sound. He dared to defy the borders of race and integrate Christian music audiences. He shared his platform with many of the most brilliant vocalists and musicians of our lifetime. And then he brought gospel music to the rest of the world. In this episode, Tim and Ray discuss the life and music of gospel legend Andraé Crouch. As always, they dig in deep, covering his beginnings in COGIC (and his first group, the COGICs), his top-notch rolodex of collaborators (including Billy Preston, Bill Maxwell, Danniebelle Hall, Táta Vega, Phillip Bailey, Stevie Wonder, Howard Smith, Linda McCrary, Kristle Murden, and his very own twin sister Sandra Crouch), his prolific works released through Light and, later, Warner Bros. Records, his right-wing politics, his 1982 drug arrest scandal, and his crossover era working in major Hollywood films (The Color Purple and The Lion King, anyone?) and with pop megastars like Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones, Madonna, and Rick Astley. Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/)

8. 

   19 Jan 2022

   The Jesus Music (Extended Edition)

   Well, at least they didn’t hate the film as much as they thought they would. In this follow-up episode to their discussion on praise and worship music, Tim and Ray review the latest documentary on contemporary Christian music, The Jesus Music. In between giving their thoughts on what they (mostly dis)liked about the film, the hosts do their best to supplement the narrative with all of the Jesus movement and CCM history left out of the movie—from the dozens of essential Christian artists that went completely unmentioned (How do you tell this story without Randy Stonehill?) to the avoided industry and religious politics that defined the trajectory of the music over its 50+ year history. (Side note: Why were so many music acts shown as being interviewed for the film if nothing they actually said was going to make the final cut?) Opening banter includes part one of a two-part, long-overdue rant about our societal and governmental failures regarding the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. Stay tuned for the second half of this conversation which will dig deeper into the life and career of gospel and CCM legend Andraé Crouch! Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/) Resources/References: The Jesus Music (2021) (https://thejesusmusic.movie/) dir. Andrew and Jon Erwin Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher (2005) (https://www.amazon.com/Frisbee-Life-Death-Hippie-Preacher/dp/B00L40IW1Y) dir. David Di Sabatino Fallen Angel: The Outlaw Larry Norman (2009) (https://www.amazon.com/Fallen-Angel-Outlaw-Larry-Norman/dp/B00IIJJ9W0) dir. David Di Sabatino Jesus People (1972) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjWUo1DLrfY) dir. David Adams Not By Might Nor By Power: The Jesus Revolution (https://www.amazon.com/Not-Might-Nor-Power-Revolution/dp/0978543335) by Lonnie Frisbee with Roger Sachs Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music? Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock (https://www.amazon.com/Should-Devil-Have-Good-Music/dp/110190707X) by Gregory Alan Thornbury God's Forever Family: The Jesus People Movement in America (https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Forever-Family-Movement-America/dp/0195326458) by Larry Eskridge “Jesus, drugs and rock ’n’ roll: How an O.C. hippie church birthed Contemporary Christian music” (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2021-10-05/jesus-music-calvary-church-contemporary-christian-documentary) by Randall Roberts “Who killed the contemporary Christian music industry” (https://theweek.com/articles/555603/who-killed-contemporary-christian-music-industry) by The Week “CCM industry stays silent on LGBTQ inclusion as queer artists carve inroads” (https://religionnews.com/2021/11/15/ccm-industry-stays-silent-on-lgbtq-inclusion-as-queer-artists-carve-inroads/) by Kathryn Post

9. 

   7 Dec 2021

   Glory to Glory to Gimme a Break

   Formulaic songwriting that reduces music composition to nursery rhyme chants! Self-deprecating, unimaginative lyrics in appeal to the most narcissistic version of God possible! Chord progressions of…well really just about 2 or 3 chords. But synth strings! Don’t forget the synth strings!! In this episode, Tim and Ray discuss the bane of their existence: praise and worship music. What is the difference between CCM, gospel, and praise & worship music, and how have these differences been rendered almost completely moot by the monopoly of the latter? How does the music reinforce Christian gatekeeping and the hierarchies that allow only the singers with a certain sound, look, and “lifestyle” to be worship leaders? And what of how the creation of a consolidated Christian “worship” experience has disproportionately redefined the identity of the Black church and eradicated the viability of traditionally Black-sounding gospel music? Tim digs into the history of the genre from the early days of the Jesus People and Maranatha! Music to Integrity’s Hosanna Music to Hillsong Worship. And Ray critiques the current leading purveyors of Black worship music, Maverick City Music, and the collective’s role in upholding white supremacy in the Christian/Gospel music industry. Opening banter includes this year’s Grammy nominations and why the awards (especially those in the Gospel field) are so bad at actually honoring the best music of the year. Disclaimer: you may hear the occasional little snore or cough from a sleeping dog on Tim’s lap in the background. Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/) Resources/References: “We’ve No Less Days to Sing God’s Praise, But New Worship Songs Only Last a Few Years” (https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/december/worship-music-lifespan-shrinking-faster-study-tanner-ccli.html) by Daniel Silliman “Meet ‘J.C.’ — The First-Ever A.I. Gospel Artist Making His Debut On Meta” (https://getuperica.com/441337/jc-first-ever-artificial-intelligence-gospel-artist/) by Keenan "HIGz" Higgins “How Maverick City Music Is Breaking the Worship Music Mold,” (https://www.relevantmagazine.com/culture/music/how-maverick-city-music-is-breaking-the-worship-music-mold/) Relevant Magazine

10. 

    2 Nov 2021

    I'm Not Gay No More

    It’s all things gay and Christian in this episode, with a specific look at the history of the ex-gay movement and reparative therapy. What do Tim and Ray think about Biblical infallibility and the “clobber verses”? What about the concept of deliverance? Is gay identity a choice or are we born this way? Is ex-gay identity a fallacy? Is the “decision” to change one’s sexual orientation really just the result of coercion? Tim and Ray review a pair of documentaries on the subject, including the new-ish Netflix film Pray Away, and take to task the narratives of former ex-gay church leaders who have now embraced their queer identities. There are a few focus points along the way: Dave Chappelle, the relationship between anti-science and anti-LGBT rhetoric in the church, Donnie McClurkin, exvangelicalism, and the problem with leadership models and the power structures in affirming LGBT faith spaces that mirror their conservative counterparts. Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/) Resources/References: Abomination: Homosexuality and the Ex-Gay Movement (2006) (https://www.amazon.com/Abomination-Homosexuality-Movement-Alicia-Salzer/dp/B0038T6E1E) dir. Alicia Salzer For the Bible Tells Me So (2007) (https://www.kanopy.com/product/bible-tells-me-so) dir. Daniel G. Karslake For They Know Not What They Do (2019) (https://www.kanopy.com/product/they-know-not-what-they-do) dir. Daniel G. Karslake Pray Away (https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370) (2021) dir. Kristine Stolakis “Clobbering ‘Biblical’ Gay Bashing” (https://www.believeoutloud.com/voices/article/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing/) by Rev. Mark A. Sandlin “The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality” (https://youtu.be/ezQjNJUSraY) by Matthew Vines “For Gay Christian Musicians, Work Balances Faith, Art, Love” (https://www.npr.org/2011/07/31/138782702/for-gay-christian-musicians-work-balances-faith-art-love) by David Person “1 man, 1 woman isn't the Bible's only marriage view” (https://inchatatime.blogspot.com/2013/06/1-man-1-woman-isnt-bibles-only-marriage.html) by Hector Avalos, Robert R. Cargill and Kenneth Atkinson (archived by Susan Russell of An Inch At A Time: Reflections on the Journey) “The Bible: So Misunderstood It's a Sin” (https://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/02/thats-not-what-bible-says-294018.html) by Kurt Eichenwald “So What If Homosexuality Were a Choice?” (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/so-what-if-homosexuality-were-a-choice_b_3375761) by Cindy Zelman

11. 

    28 Sept 2021

    Juanita's Sheets

    “What are you bringing to the table?” In this tour de force, we discuss none other than Prophetess/Dr./Ambassador Juanita Bynum II—the controversial juggernaut whom The New York Times once called “the most prominent black female television evangelist in the country.” Was Juanita Bynum a chosen vessel? A megalomaniac? A misunderstood victim? We start with a quick overview that covers it all, from her breakout success under Bishop T.D. Jakes to selling out stadium conferences around the world to hosting Praise the Lord on TBN to signing with Matthew Knowles’ Music World. We then do an in-depth critical analysis of her 1997 video sermon that started it all, “No More Sheets,” detangling the pathologies of Christian sexual politics, prosperity gospel, and internalized misogyny along the way. What was it about this particular message that resonated with an entire generation of single, Black Christian women (and gay men)? Finally, we close the episode by revisiting Juanita's career milestones through the lens of “No More Sheets,” highlighting her continual rise and eventual fall from grace due to the very sexism she commoditized, and contemplating what lessons might be gleaned from such an eccentric, polarizing figure in American Christendom. Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/)

12. 

    5 Sept 2021

    Pilot

    Welcome to Outlaw's Evidence of the Unseen! In our first episode, we tell our origin stories and talk about what we hope to bring to the table with this new podcast. From growing up in Christian fundamentalism to coming out and rediscovering faith as pro-Black, pro-feminist queer musicians, we discuss our desires for building community with the show and what you as the listener can expect moving forward. Follow us: Tim: @timdillinger (https://twitter.com/timdillinger) Ray: @raycurenton (https://twitter.com/raycurenton) Subscribe to Tim's newsletter at https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/ (https://godsmusicismylife.substack.com/)

Reach and audience

Public platform figures. Ratings count people who left a rating, not total listeners.

Apple Podcasts (US)

4.9 / 5

8 ratings

Spotify

5.0 / 5

7 ratings

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Guest appearances

Does not typically book guests

Based on episode analysis; this does not confirm that the show is currently accepting guests.