PITY PARTY OVER

Stephen Matini

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68
Episodes: 2022
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About PITY PARTY OVER

Breakfast with Stephen feeds the mind with stories and insights on agency and leadership. breakfastwithstephen.substack.com (https://breakfastwithstephen.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast)

Publisher: Stephen Matini
Category: business · education
Language: en
Explicit: No
First episode: 14 Apr 2022
Latest episode: 6 Nov 2024

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6 Nov 2024
Bridging Divides: Dov Baron on How Curiosity Shapes Leadership in Polarized Times
This episode of Pity Party Over couldn't be more timely following the US presidential election results, which have left voters and the world feeling equally joyful and hurt. This pivotal moment highlights the importance of listening to bridge divides and overcome polarization, which destroys relationships and the opportunity to create a system that accommodates everyone's needs. Dov Baron (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dovbaron/), a leadership consultant, author and speaker, helps leaders find more profound meaning and fulfillment in their work. Our conversation centers on the transformative power of authenticity and curiosity in creating genuine connections in our polarized world. Cultivating curiosity means actively seeking to understand others' perspectives, fostering compassion, and reducing divisiveness. By focusing on the broader context rather than just content, we can gain empathy for others and build meaningful relationships that transcend division. Listen to the episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast platform. Subscribe to Pity Party Over for more insightful episodes. Questions? Email Stephen Matini or send him a message on LinkedIn. #Belonging #Curiosity #Authenticity #Purpose #Integrity #EmotionalIntelligence #LeadershipDevelopment #SelfAwareness #PersonalGrowth #Mindfulness #Kindness #PainAndGrowth #Transformation #Innovation #ContextOverContent TRANSCRIPT Stephen Matini: Since you and I met, there's one word that is really dear to me, but I also know that is dear to you that I would like to ask you why it is dear to you, which is belonging. Dov Baron: Belonging is a really important thing for me. And at a very real level, it's real to me and important to me because I never did belong. I didn't feel like I belonged when I was a kid. Coming from that to the present tense, I think belonging is really important because we, particularly since COVID, since the lockdown, people had a lot of problems. I remember calling the CEOs that I work with and saying, "When pandemic happened and you're going to lock down, you're going to want to fire me. You're going to want to take me off your regular paycheck, and it's the last thing you should do." And they're like, "Why?" And I said, "Because you're going to have way more problems after than you have now." And they were like, "Well, why?" And well, it'll soon get back to normal. Well, A, normal is never coming back. That's over. And B, when you come back, you're going to see human beings are tribal. We need interconnection with other human beings. So whatever this does, we can talk about how it impacts our nervous system, our limbic system, how it affects the gut biome, and all the other things that it's going to affect. But psychologically, we are going to be hungry for community because we're being removed from communities. And we've all set up our own communities. If we're not ready for that, when they come back, people will find themselves drifting into communities that they don't really belong into. And they go, "What do you mean?" Well, they're going to find communities where they can distort themselves and they can make themselves fit in. And let's face it, you and I both understand this. In the corporate world, everything was about fitting in. Yeah The whole thing that everybody was excited about is get the right people on the right bus in the right seat. Yeah, well, that means distort yourself to be in that seat. Belonging means I can show up with all of me. Gay, straight, wearing a dress and a mustache, artistic, creative, highly intellectual. You know Any flavor, shade of context that person wants to bring is where you belong. But in a fitting in culture, we have to disenfranchise parts of ourselves. We have to remove parts of ourselves. We have to distort parts of ourselves in order to fit in. So belonging is very important now more than ever. It's always been important because we're tribal, and it's important to me because I never felt like I fit in when I belonged when I was a kid. Stephen Matini: When did you start feeling that you belonged? Dov Baron: Probably not until my early to mid-40s. Stephen Matini: And what happened? Dov Baron: I got married to my bride, who I've been with for 27 years when I was 39. We've been together 27 years. And she was the first person I felt like I belonged with. I remember asking, I say to my friend, we went for a drink and he said, "How's it going with Ranuka?" And I said, "Magnificent." And I said, "I think I'm going to ask her to marry me." And my friend's like, "Oh, you can't do that." And I said, "Why not?" He goes, "Well, you're the last dying breed of Bachelor." And I'm like, "Yeah." And he said, "But you can't ask her to marry you." And I said, "Why?" He says, "I know your highest maxim." And I said, "Yeah, so do I." And he goes, "Well, has it changed?" And I said, "No." He goes, "Is still freedom?" I go, "Yeah." He goes, "Well, how can you get married?" And I said, "Because freedom for you is your accessibility to different vaginas." That's not what freedom is to me. Freedom to me is access to more of myself. The more free I feel to be me, then the more free I am. And in this relationship with this woman, I have another area I didn't even know I'm allowed to express or I give myself permission to express. So that was the beginning of it was freedom of being with her. She was so powerfully in her own space that it gave me permission to stop doing my shit that I did in relationships. And so I started to feel like I belonged. But it was also at that point in time that after at 39, it was 20 years of work. So I'd been working on myself personally with therapists and mentors and all the rest of it for 20 years that I suddenly got comfortable with the fact that I was a polymath. I wasn't specialized and I didn't know enough in a particular area, but I knew vast amounts in a lot of different areas. And I started to surround myself with other polymaths. Belonging my tribe or a tribe of polymaths. People who have incredible specialties, but you don't know. They also have these other 18 things that they're so deeply embedded in. And being around them made me feel like I belonged. So that was the beginning of it. And that's where I live now. I live in that place of being surrounded by them. Stephen Matini: So if I understood correctly what you're saying, you start belonging when you have license to be yourself or someone gives you that opportunity to be yourself. Dov Baron: I don't know that anybody gives it to you. I think that you give yourself permission to not distort or disenfranchise and allow people or groups to fall away that you thought you wanted to be in. So this is the challenge we're seeing with the very polarized partisan political system and political followers. You have people who used to hang out together who can't talk to each other anymore because they're polarized politically. The question is, can I be all of me and can I allow you to be all of you? So if it's not okay for me to be all of me or I feel like I have to put you in your place, then that's not my tribe. You know My religion, I tell everybody, my religion is curiosity. So if I'm going to live in the blood of that curiosity, I'm going to eat, sleep, breathe that, then I have to be willing to show up. Now, that's me showing up to them. On the other side of that, they may want to shove me in some box, and that's not where I belong. So I know where I belong, which is where you where I don't have to disenfranchise or repress or deny some part of myself in order to be with you. And at the same time, be respectful, of course. Stephen Matini: Some people, maybe you heard this, may say, "you know Dov, that's easy for you to say this because you are an independent professional. You don't work for anyone you know so you're not actually in an organization. But me, I am part of this thing, so I have to be extra careful. So I don't know if someone ever made the comment to you, but if they did, how do you respond? Dov Baron: I respond with, "If you don't feel like you belong, you should be somewhere else." Sorry. I mean, I know that that sounds like an easy solution, but it is an easy solution because there are companies that you have access to, whoever you are. So for me, the key is not in, "Well, I can't leave." You've not taken ownership of your specialization. You've not taken ownership of your power yet. When you take ownership of that, then you can go anywhere, anywhere at all. So if you're in a place where you have to disenfranchise yourself, that's too high a cost for a salary because it means you have to take off your personal head and put on your professional head in order to be there. It's fascinating. I'm often asked this question, "How is this possible? Many of your friends are your clients." Yes. Because they're not paying me to be their friend. I can make the separation between those two things. So I am going to work with you and I'm not going to change anything. So in fact, you still get the same guy. I'm just not coming at you from the same position as a friend. Yeah So I speak to you the way I speak to my friends. I speak to you the way I speak to my clients. I speak to you the way I speak to anybody. And if that works for you, that's fantastic. And if it doesn't, that's also fantastic. So if you're working somewhere where you feel like you have to disenfranchise yourself and you have to take off your personal head and put on your professional head, then there's two things to look at there. One, the environment, which I just said, if it is someplace that forces you to disenfranchise, that's something to look at. But there's also the other side, which is you have to look at yourself. And you have to look at yourself, A, why am I so willing to disenfranchise? Why am I so willing to distort myself? That's a question in and of itself. And B, if I'm pissed off with this place that makes me disenfranchised, what is it in me that I'm not bringing forward? What is my own discomfort? What am I not examining that I need to bring forward? Because I'm facilitating this. Like What's magnificent about you that you're facilitating being shoved in the corner? Stephen Matini: Maybe one of the reason why that happens is because all of us, to a different extent, we are afraid that if we set the boundaries, if we said the no, we would not belong. Dov Baron: If you don't do those things, you won't fit in. You will belong, but you won't fit in. And you've got to get the distinction. Particularly you know English is a difficult language because we use so many alternates of the same thing. But fitting in and belonging are vastly different. I love beautiful clothes, and I love beautiful shoes, and I have pretty exotic shoes. But if I'm going to find some nice shoes and I buy them, I'm not going to force them into the closet. I either have to get rid of some and make some space for it, or are they going to get damaged? So if you think about anything that you shove into something to make it fit, it has to distort. If I buy a nice new shirt and I put it in there and the shirts are full, and I've not emptied some out, then the shirt's getting all creased and crinkled and doesn't get to shine. So it's the same thing. We make things fit in rather than belonging. This is your place. When I met my bride, I felt like I'd come home. I didn't have to go, "Oh, you know should I minimize this or maximize that?" It was like I was over that before I met her. It was like, "No." I mean, when we met, we went on a blind date and spent five hours on a blind date. And halfway through the blind date, she said, "I feel like I'm being interviewed." And I said, "That's because you are." And she said, "Really?" And I said, "Yeah." She goes, "Well, can I ask you anything?" I said, "Anything at all because I'm not going to hide anything from you, and I don't want you to hide anything from me." And I realized that socially in the world, you've been trained to say the right thing or do the right thing. We're all trained that way. It wasn't a criticism to her. And I said, "And this may be your first experience of not having to do that, but I'm not going to do that." So I'm going to say things that you might think are sexually inappropriate or politically incorrect or whatever it is. I'm not going to hide any of it because I'm not politically correct. I say things that some people will find offensive. All you have to know is my heart and soul are deeply embedded in love and kindness and generosity and curiosity. But that doesn't mean I won't piss you off or say things that are in a or you have been conditioned to be inappropriate. And this is how we're living our lives. And this is what's really important in my work around the emotional source code. It's called the anatomy of meaning. You have to look at the meaning you give everything because it has anatomy to it. You have to go below it and see, okay, well, where did this connect with that? And how is that part of this? Because these words that you're holding don't mean anything except to you. And part of the problem with our society today is we're imposing meaning. So when they, whoever they are, whether it's your boss, whether it's an employee, whoever it is, when they use a term, your only response is, "Tell me what you mean by that." Because you may discover that they do have horrible intent, and you may discover they have playful intent. But you don't want to write people off based on the intent that you're making up because nothing has any meaning but the meaning you are giving it. And this is what's so vastly important for us to understand that. Nothing has any meaning but the meaning we give it. So question that meaning because it's not truth because the meaning you give it, you hold as truth. And if you don't question it, you won't know if it's real or not. Stephen Matini: How do you deal with a tribe of people, a tribe meaning could be an organization, could be whatever that is in which somehow there are certain words that have a specific meaning for that tribe and they consider it to be appropriate or not to use them? How do you face the situation if you want to belong to the group of people? Dov Baron: Well, again, you're talking about fitting in versus belonging. So my tribe, where I belong, we all know that we're all going to say things that out in the world would be, quote, “inappropriate." It doesn't mean we're not discerning. So please be clear here. I'm not going to say to my friends those things that I might say on a CNN, right? Or I might say on another national I'm not going to say those words because I'm not an idiot. And by that, I don't mean that I'm afraid of being canceled. I don't care about being canceled. It means I understand that people are going to associate a meaning. So here's the thing. My wife and I teach speakers how to speak, the Speaker's Academy for Authentic Leadership. And one of the things we'll talk about in that is if you're going to use a piece of jargon and by the way, almost everything is jargon, right? But you're going to use jargon, right? Or you're going to use a word that is not part of the lexicon of the language. So for instance, I was born in Britain, so my vocabulary tends to be much larger than the average North American. There are words that I use that are French in heritage, that are part of the English language. I just can't use them here. Not because people are dumb, it's just because it's not used. But one of my words that is just part of my lexicon is the word ubiquitous. Ubiquitous. Now, ubiquitous is part of my I say it all the time in a reference point. I cannot say that in America or North America without giving a short explanation because then what I'm doing is I'm giving meaning. So I say, you know it seems like polarization is ubiquitous these days. If I stop there, I'm as smart as using a big word. There's nothing good about that. For a lot of people, yeah. Right? That's all I am. But if I say it seems like polarization is ubiquitous, meaning everywhere you look, people are on either one side or the other. They're fighting against some kind of polarization. Now that person has learned the word ubiquitous. So now instead of feeling distressed or disrespected or talked down to, they now feel smarter. What if we do that with politically incorrect statements, which is what I do? So we get this understanding. What we're doing there is transferring meaning so that you can still be offended. And by the way, if you're committed to being offended by something, that's something for you to really consider having a look at. Just as I would tell you this, and just so you understand, if you're committed to anything, have a look at it. If you're committed to being a Christian and you've never thought about it, if I say to you, "you know, what faith are you?" And you say, "I'm a Christian." And I say, "Why? Because I am. That's what I've always been. Then question it, please. Not because I'm anti-Christian, but because I'm pro-curiosity, because I'm pro-consciousness, because I'm pro-expensiveness, because I'm pro-human being. And I want you to understand that there are other ways to see things. And the only way we can grow as human beings is by looking at things from different perspectives. So what if it doesn't mean this? So this is how we develop ourselves. This is how we grow as leaders is by putting aside our assumptions of meaning and embracing curiosity to discover meaning that may have nothing. Like you may be blown away to discover these other purposes. And that meaning might be insane. That's fine. But at least you know they're not coming at it from the way you're coming at it. And that allows you to grow. And that allows you to find where you actually belong rather than where to distort yourself to fit in. Stephen Matini: You know As you're talking, I'm thinking other words that seem to be important to you. One is integrity and purpose. Integrity and purpose, you know I'm thinking out loud, do they come before what we're talking about? Dov Baron: If you and I walk around your city center and ask people, are you integral? Do you have integrity? I guarantee you that 99.9% of people say yes. So integrity is a complete waste of time if you don't understand it. So that's the proviso. Integrity is something that you have to understand. What are you integral to? So if I ask you, was Adolf Hitler integral? 100%. So integrity is not a good or a bad thing. It just means your commitment to what it is you say you're committed to. So for me, if you don't know your purpose, then what are you integral to? You know most people will say, "Well, I do what I say and I say what I do." Okay. Why do you say what you say? Well, I thought about that. Well, then I don't know what you're integral to because you don't. So that's a harder question, a much harder question. This is why you know my clients work with me is because they are highly intelligent people. They are highly successful people. They've done amazing things, but they've not received the kind of pushback at a deep curiosity. Not to be argumentative, but to allow them to expand, allow them to explore deeper parts of themselves so they can have a deeper relationship with life. So from that integrity, we come back further, which is into purpose. But here's the thing, we can't get into purpose because even I say people, "What's your purpose?" Most people in the business world will say, "Yeah, they know what their purpose is. They read Simon Sinek’s “Start with Why.” I know my purpose." And then I tell them to tell me what it is, and I go, "Do you want the good news or the bad news?" And they go, "The good news." And I go, "You read the book, and the book is called Starts With Why?" And they go, "Okay. What's the bad news?" “The first word of that book title is what?" And they go, "Starts?" And I go, "Yep, you've started. You're not there." And they go, "What do you mean?" You have constructed purpose out of mission. It's a construct. It's a manufactured thing. You can't find purpose unless you self-examine at a very deep level. Purpose actually comes from pain. It's the thing that you are pained about. I'll give you an example. I had a conversation with someone who is insanely highly respected about being mindful. And deservably so, this person has done insane amounts of research, written books that are magnificent on it. I have spent time with this person on several occasions, and this person speaks mindlessly. And this is not once. This is always. Now, I get being a quick thinker. I'm a quick thinker, but that's different. No room for anybody to breathe because it's just like, "I'm going to suck all the air out of the room." It's like, "Oh, that's interesting." So why is this person's mission, purpose, around mindfulness? What I know about this person that they never told me, but I know by observing is there was a primary caregiver or somebody of incredible importance who never let this person speak, who spoke to them mindlessly and never gave them room to speak. So this person has made their life's purpose about being mindful, including making sure that you think about what you're saying and letting other people have space to say it and be aware of your own thoughts. But this person is still living in the wound. Your purpose is always connected to your pain. If you're not willing to look into the dark shadows, you'll never find your purpose. In the words of Joseph Campbell, "The treasure you seek can only be found in the cave you fear to enter. And most of us intellectually go there, but we don't emotionally and spiritually go there. That's why they work with me because they've been to all the top coaches. They've been to the top therapists. They've been to you know the Tony Robbins weekends in Fiji or whatever it is. And like how come it's still not there? Because this is the deep work. If you don't want to do that, that's great. You shouldn't do it. And I taught people out of working with me more than I talked them into it. But if you want to take that on, the majesty of that journey is so beautiful, so fulfilling. But you should know this. If you're in a company and you want innovation or you're an individual who wants enlightenment, the path is the same. And they go, "Well, what's that?" Destruction. You know We think about enlightenment as being, "Oh, the angels are singing." We think about innovation as, "Oh, you know we're going to develop this new technology." But the truth is that all innovation and all enlightenment burns everything down because otherwise you just cling to what you knew. And so most people you know don't want to burn anything down, so they go to Tony Robbins or whatever it is, and that's great. Nothing wrong with it. And when I say burn it down, I'm not talking about, "Oh, well, now I'm going to destroy my business when you work with me." No, you're actually going to be more successful. I always tell people, "I have no interest in making you more successful, but I know it's going to happen." It's a bonus. You will be more successful, but you'll be far more deeply fulfilled, and that's more important. You'll be on purpose with your life, which is more important. But you have to burn down beliefs that you've clung to that you actually think are you. We've all been there. I was certainly there. I was like, "I'm certain this is who I am. I'm the savior. I'm the superhero." That was my shit that I carried around for 32 years. That was a hell of a burden to put down. But imagine it like you know it's like you're atlas. You're carrying this weight on your back. And somebody says, "You can put it down now." And you're like, "Well, who will I be? If I put down the world and stop carrying the world, who will I be? Who's going to even recognize me in the marketplace if I'm not this identity that I've clung to?" Guess we'll find out. So we cling to our identity. We manufacture purpose out of that identity. So you can't have purpose without dealing with identity. And then as we manufacture purpose, we then say we're integral to purpose, but it's a purpose that was manufactured that is rooted in a false identity. So now you see how it's flipped back into your question. Stephen Matini: What is the best way to experience that pain that you were talking about? Because the pain can be really scary for a lot of people. You know. Dov Baron: Of course! Stephen Matini: Last time you said, well, you just said it. Enlightenment is a destructive process, which I love that. But what is, I don't know, a healthy way to stay in that pain? Dov Baron: So let me be clear. Nobody wants to stay in the pain. I didn't want to stay in it when I was in it, and I've been in it several times. If you put your hand on a hot plate, you're going to pull your hand away. It's another form of pain. You're going to pull away. The answer is to become anti-fragile. It's not my word. But to become anti-fragile. So let me give you an example. You work out at lunchtime. Yeah Do you lift weights or what do you do? Stephen Matini: A little bit. A little bit of everything. Yeah. Dob Baron: Okay. So you lift weights? Stephen Matini: Yeah. Dov Baron: So I've been a bodybuilder for many, many, many years. I used to do these videos from the gym that were called “sweaty leadership tips.” I'd be all sweaty. There's a bunch of them on YouTube somewhere. And you know I would hold my phone, but every now and then, I would flip the phone just a little bit off angles over my shoulder, looking at gym equipment or looking at other people. And so I did it this time, and I said, "See that guy there?" There's a guy working out. And I said, "That guy's been here every day that I've been here and I'm here dedicatedly five days a week for at least two hours every morning. He's here five days a week for at least maybe he's here more, I don't know. But he's definitely here the five days I'm here, and he's here for at least as long as I'm here. He's usually here before me, and he sometimes leaves just before me, but mostly he's sometimes often after. Now, you've seen me in a semi-clothed state and you know that I'm muscular, right? I'm not trying to show that off. You know That's my form. Okay. Now, if you look at him, I realize he's far away. You probably can see that he's not particularly muscular. What's the difference? And you might say, "Well, maybe he doesn't want to be muscular." And I can say, "Sure, of course. Everybody has that choice." But let's remember he's here as long as I'm here as often as I'm here. What's the difference? You don't know. Like It would be kind of puzzling, right? And the reason it's puzzling is because he kind of looks out of shape. In fact, he looked like he was in the same shape as he was two years before when I first and I'd gotten to meet him and said hello. And, you know, I, I actually have an enormous amount of respect that he'd show up every morning for two hours. But what I noticed was he never increased the weight. He did his four sets of 10 for everything over and over again. So his body had adapted and never gotten any better. He was doing all the right things, but he wasn't willing to embrace the pain. When you go to the gym, you know that's enough for me to stay the same. And you know that you have to enter into the discomfort in order to grow. You have to run for 10 seconds longer than you feel like you're capable of. You have to hold the pose for 10 seconds longer than you think you can in yoga. You have to 10% more weight on. You have to do all of those things. You have to do that in order for it to work. The way to understand embracing the pain is anti-fragile rather than resilient. So resilient means that you get knocked down nine times eight times and you get up nine. That's stupid. That means you're not learning. I know I used to be the king of that. That's dumb. Be anti-fragile, which means you get knocked down once and you go, "How can I get up stronger?" Your muscles are anti-fragile. They have to be torn and broken in order for them to grow. That pain that you're in in your growth process is celebratory. Wow, I'm growing. If you go to the gym and the next morning you wake up and you're kind of like, "Ooh, ow, ooh, ooh, ow." And your friend says, "What's going on?" He goes, "I worked out yesterday. Are you okay? Oh, yeah. I had a great workout. I'm just sore. You celebrate that. Celebrate the pain because it's taking you to an outcome that you can't get to unless you embrace being anti-fragile until you embrace being stronger. Stephen Matini: It feels like you are giving me a recipe with all these different ingredients. And so while you mentioned this ingredient, but I would like to know where does kindness go in your recipe, as I call it? Dov Baron: If you want to insult me, call me nice. If you want to compliment me, call me kind. Stephen Matini: You are so kind. Dov Baron: Right. Thank you. Nice is an insult, NICE, neurotic, insecure, controlling emotions. Kindness is something we're talked out of. I believe with every fiber of my being that our nature is kindness, but most of us will mix kindness up with niceness. So I'm just being kind. No, you're not. You're lying. I didn't want to be unkind. No, that's not being unkind. Tell the truth. If you have a big decision in front of you and you have a friend over here who will always be nice, and you have a friend over here who loves you and cares about you, but will always tell you the truth, and you got a major decision. Who are you going to? You're not going to the nice person. You know, they're going to just say something nice. This is a major decision of your life. You're going to go to the person who's kind and truthful. I used to call myself in my 20s. I was brutally honest. No, I was brutal. I was brutal. That's what I was. Because it lacked kindness. Kindness is compassion. It's caring. It's loving. But I will not lie to you. Does my ass look fat in these pants? That's a question that every man who's ever been in a relationship has heard. Let's just say the answer is yes, right? So is that kind? Not really. If I'm nice, I say, "No, love it. It looks great." Ugh. I'm lying, but if I have kindness, I will say, "The fact that you ask me means you feel like it is. I would suggest you change. No, I want your opinion. Okay. I love your ass. But those are not the most flattering pants in the world. I don't have to deliver it with a hammer. I can deliver it with kindness. And kindness to me, if you sort of boil it down, where I go to is this. I need to remember that everybody I meet, no matter how deliriously happy they seem or how miserable they seem, everybody I meet is in some kind of pain. They may have a magnificent mask. They may have a mask they don't even know they have. But everybody's in some kind of pain. Everybody wants to feel better about something. So I can approach them from that place of, "I'm not here to make you feel miserable. I'm not here to rub salt in any wound. I'm here to have compassion for you. And how do I have compassion for you? I become deeply curious and discover what's going on for you. Why are you this way? Because you're in pain. The person attacking you isn't attacking you because they're an asshole. They're attacking you because they're in pain. And you look like somebody who might cause them more pain, so they're attacking you. And you go, "But I was being really, really nice to them. Yeah, well, I might attack you if you'd be nice to me too because nice is shit. They're lying." So it's really important to realize that everybody's in some kind of pain. Have compassion for that. Ask yourself, "I wonder what kind of pain this person's in. I wonder why they're being that way." Again, curiosity is my religion. Become deeply curious about them. When you do that, people will open up to you. People will not be as offended. Remember, attack is defense and defense is attack. If somebody's attacking you, it's a defensive move. They feel like you're attacking them. And you go, "But I wasn’t... I understand that you weren't. And I understand that that was not your intent. That's not relevant. What's relevant is that's how they feel. All little children are kind and they're caring and they're loving and they're cuddly and they're deeply curious. They want to know why the sky is blue and why the grass is green. They don't have all these assumptions. So if that's inherent, then everything else that's showing up that isn't that is showing up because that person had to fit in somewhere in order to not feel alone in the world. Okay. Maybe that somewhere was their own family. That happens a lot. Stephen Matini: I have one last question for you, because it's beautiful how all these ingredients come together. And you have explained them to me very clearly. So I'm very grateful, and very peaceful, you know because a lot of things that you said make total sense to you. But the way you say it, it helped me reconciling some discrepancies that I may have on how I connect them. But I was wondering ... Dov Baron: You know what I just want to say before you go any further, that's really important. Like I want the listener to understand that. The challenge with today a lot of the time is we deal in content, not context. And in order to deal in context, which gives us a deeper understanding, we have to look at all the pieces of the puzzle. All this puzzle is one big sky, right? Well, you're holding one piece of the jigsaw puzzle that has blue on it. That's just one piece of the puzzle. There's so much more. And so when you like listening to this conversation that we've had, if somebody started at the beginning and kicked out after 10 minutes because I said a certain word that offended them, they have no context. But even if you have discrepancies in your head as I'm speaking, by the time we get to the end, you can then look at, well, what came together? What made sense? Am I in the same place? Again, as you said Stephen before, it's that willingness to change and not be so rigid and fixed. So I sincerely appreciate you saying that, that it brought the discrepancies together and, "Oh, now I see how this connects to this." But if you take it out of context, everything's lost. So this is why it's important to listen to the full conversation. And moreover, listen twice. And you suddenly hear what you know because now the second time you're not listening with your own biases. So thank you for bringing it up. It's really important. Stephen Matini: Maybe it's also the combination of my own curiosity. I'm also very curious. And the fact that anything you say to me comes from a place of kindness, you know including the jokes or anything you said. You know For those who are going to listen to this episode, you pointed out all these amazing ingredients, you know integrity, purpose, meaning, belonging, and kindness. You talked about context, assumption, pain, loving, love. If you had to tell to our listeners, what could it be a starting point? Where should they start with all these ingredients? Which one is the first one to tackle? Dov Baron: Without doubt, it's curiosity. I sign off everything I do with stay curious, my friends. Stay curious. I'm very philosophical and very spiritual in my background before I became a psychologist, before I became somebody involved in neuroscience and quantum physics and geopolitics and all the other stuff. There is a philosophical understanding that life is in quest of knowing itself. I believe that if there is a force in the world that you or in the universe that we call God, that intelligence is expansive. And if God is the ultimate in intelligence, then it is the ultimate in expansion. If it has to expand, then it has to constantly experience and learn. And the only way to do that is curiosity. Of course, I don't have that power, but if I was to say, "What are the exhibits of the presence of God," it would be love and curiosity. But curiosity still comes first. I love that. Because if I love without curiosity, I lack discernment. If I'm curious, I'm constantly learning and I'm willing to constantly change. And it means I'm willing to constantly let go of my biases. So all the things I talked about, get curious about, get curious about what pain might be underneath that fake smile. What pain might be underneath my need to fit in rather than belong? What is the pain that stops me from being curious? What is the pain that stops me from being loving or kind in a situation? Because if I wasn't in pain, if I wasn't protecting, I'd probably be kind here. Yeah. You probably would. What is the pain that stops me from experiencing my purpose? What is the pain that I feel that has me fear the depths of my emotions, my shadow self? What if my purpose actually comes from my pain? What if my purpose is to serve in the world in a way I've never considered? What if my purpose is to serve in the world with some part of myself that I disenfranchised, that I've got boxed away somewhere in the shadows of myself? Every time you're about to answer, think about how you can change it to a question for yourself, not for the other person. Because you're not going to turn into some interrogator, but a question for yourself. You want to be more innovative in your organization? Be curious. Don't jump to assumptions. You want to be a better leader? Be curious. You want to be a better manager? Be curious. This applies to every area of your life. Be curious. It's the essence of what I do on my podcast on The Dove Barron Show. It's always about curiosity. I'm curious about this. Tell me about that because everybody's formed by their curiosity or quote their lack of it. Stephen Matini: I’m very grateful for this time you're giving me. Thank you so much, Dove. I've learned a ton. Thank you. This has been absolutely wonderful. Dov Baron: My absolute pleasure, Steven. Thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this. Thank you for inviting me to speak with your audience. And by the way, for you, dear listener, dear viewer, you know I want you to understand something. I understand that the highest value in this crazy world is time. Even more than that, time is the engagement. So you actually being engaged with this. And if you've made it from A to Z, from the beginning to the end, you know I really want to thank you for taking the time. And if I pushed your buttons, thank you for letting me push your buttons and not flip it off, not because I want to irritate you, but because I want to irritate the parts of you that are stuck so that you can have connection to that, what I would call your soulful, more soulful self, because I believe in your magnificence. And it may have been a little too in your face for you, or it may have been a little too direct compared to what you used to. But you do need to know that I love you, and that's why I push you. And that being said, podcasts is a one-way street. We do this. It's not like that. We don't know if you're listening. We don't know if you're enjoying it. We don't know any of that. So here's what I want you to do. I want you to write to Stephen. You can write to me too, dov@dovbaron.com, yes, that is my email, really, dov@dovbaron.com, I know I'm insane. It's okay, and write to Stephen, write to me. And tell us what you got out of this. Moreover, tell us what you're going to do with it because it matters more. I hear from people 10 years ago after you did a podcast you know 10 years ago, and it really changed my life like, "Great. Wonderful." Or you did a podcast or you did an interview. You were on this TV show you know seven years ago, and you really pissed me off. And I was like, Fantastic. Write to Stephen. Tell him what you got out of this. This man brings you the very best people to interact with so that you can learn. He puts the time, the energy, the effort, sits around for hours doing all the prep work and all the post work. You have no idea. It's much longer than this. And he brings on people who cost thousands of dollars an hour to give you their time for free. Appreciate the man. Go on to wherever you listen to podcasts with Apple or wherever it is. Rate, review, and subscribe to the show, and then share the show with everybody you know. Don't hoard it. Be abundant in your thinking. Share the show out. And I'm not just talking about the episode with me on. I'm talking about this great show this men puts together for you. Share it out there. Write to him. Tell him you appreciate him. It's not a one-way street. Have reciprocity in his generosity. Stephen: Dov, all my love to you. Thank you. Thank you.
17 Oct 2024
Shift Energy: Michelle Kuei on Why Permission to Reset Is Your Superpower
Michelle Kuei is a visibility marketing coach. At age 11, a car accident left Michelle permanently disabled. She shares her journey, highlighting how growth and transformation stem from shifting our mindset, embracing personal responsibility, and allowing ourselves the permission to be vulnerable. Michelle highlights about the importance of recognizing when we’re stuck in a negative space, allowing ourselves to feel those emotions, and then consciously choosing to move beyond them by focusing on our strengths and making deliberate decisions. In our conversation, we explore the importance of taking agency over our journey, learning from life's patterns, and showing up authentically while giving ourselves grace along the way. Listen to the episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast platform. Subscribe to Pity Party Over for more insightful episodes. Questions? Email Stephen Matini or send him a message on LinkedIn. #VisibilityMarketing #Resilience #MindsetShift #PersonalGrowth #Empowerment #OvercomingChallenges #EnergyShift #Vulnerability #PermissionToReset #SelfCompassion #MentalHealth #TransformYourLife #PositiveChange #LeadershipMindset #WomenEmpowerment #Authenticity #PityPartyOver #StephenMatini #MichelleKuei #NewPodcastEpisode TRANSCRIPT Stephen Matini: When you feel the way I do now a little bit overwhelmed, what do you do? Michelle Kuei: There’s so many things I do. But first of all, what comes up to my mind is when my energy is down, I actually do quite the opposite. I go onto a treadmill, I start working. If I'm feeling stressed, there's a lot of things on my plate. I've learned to drop everything and just go into a physical activity. So a lot of times, you know, when we think about mental stress and burnout, we're in our mind, right? We're thinking about, oh my God, how am I going to take care of this? How am I going to process this? How am I going to tackle this? So we're doing a lot of thinking. So when we're thinking, our mind is working, but our body is not. And so what I have learned, and that really worked well for me, is if I were to just stop the thinking, stop the thinking mind, and just drop it and go do something that involves my body, activity, running, jogging, walking, whatever it is that you get into that physical mode, then you start taking your mental processing into, OK, I need to make sure that I step at the right place so I don't fall down. So your mind starts to think about something else other than the things that you're feeling stressed about. And when you start doing that, you're making room and making space for what needs to come. And the creativity comes when you make room for it. And how do we make room for it? When you shift from a mental stress to a physical activity, you allow your energy to flow. And everything is energy in this world, right? So if you shift one energy from one place to another, then things start to shift as well. When I was overcoming that physical disability, I realized that you know my muscle groups, muscles, they need to learn and get used to the activity I'm giving them. So every single muscle in our body has a job. Just like we have a purpose in this world, they also have a purpose in our body. And so when you give that purpose to the muscle that you're working on, sometimes you need to give it a break, right? Because when we overwork, the muscle will snap, the muscle will break. And same thing with ourselves, you know if you don't start taking a break or realizing that I need to try something else that will relax me, that will keep me into a calm state. I need to take some vacation. I need to make sure that's in my schedule before I snap and break. And so I feel that a lot of us don't realize that, you know yes, resilience is great. Resilience is powerful. Being able to bounce back and getting back on your feet and staying strong is important. But it is also important to allow yourself, giving yourself the permission to say, you know what, I'm going to take a day off. I just need a day off, or I just need a week off. And we were talking about this earlier. I took a week off because I needed a week off. Stephen Matini: My ideal world would be probably work for three months and then take a break, or maybe three, four months, you know, every three, four months, I think it should be a stop, you know, somehow. And I guess it depends also how you work. But I'm one of those people that tend to go, you know, full force. I mean, seriously, there's no a second during the day that is empty. And so after a few months, I do feel it. So you mentioned disability. And in the past, when we talked about it, you mentioned that disability is one of the ingredients that are part of your life. You know, your life is ginormous. What does disability mean to you today? Michelle Kuei: It means that there's something that I am not gifted. I am not talented to do. And I use the word gifted and talented because we have a lot of talents within ourselves, right? And talent is something that you develop. It's something that you train yourself to recognize that this is what I can do, and this is what I can do well in. And there's other areas where I might not be interested in performing or doing at all. I am not interested to become the next athlete who's running a 10K marathon. That's not my interest, but someone else is. Someone is really happy to do that as a profession. For me, disability, it just means that there's part of us that we're just not trained and we're not passionate to do. Now I don't see it as a limitation. Rather, it's just like my hair, my finger. It's just a natural part of me of who I am. And it may be a disability, physical disability on me, but it may be an emotional disability on someone else I cannot see. But that person doesn't mean that that person is not doing well or not performing well. It's just that there's something else that person is so good at that I don't need to see the limitation on that person. It's a change of mindset. It's a change of feeling about what we choose to see, what we choose to embrace this whole entire self and recognizing that there is something that I'm really good at and nobody can beat me to that. And I'm very proud of it. I'm taking ownership of it. And I can do Christmas countdown whenever I want to. But there's also a part of me that, you know what? Someone else can do that. Someone else has the purpose of doing it. So I'm just going to let them serve. I'm just going to let them do it. For example, in the past, I go to grocery and there's always stuff on the very top shelf. And the most important item, like your toilet paper, is always on the top shelf. And that is the most essential thing that people need. And so every time I go to a grocery, I'm looking on the top of the shelf and I can't reach it. So in the past, when I felt my limitation, it was a limited ability to me, I hesitated to ask for help. I hesitated because I was looking at the perspective of I'm not good enough. I'm not normal. I'm too short to reach to the shelf. But then there is a shift. There's a moment where I started to recognize and realize that, hey, yeah, I am short, but this is why we have tall people. Right? This is why we have tall people. The universe makes tall people for a reason. So that's put them to use, right? Because the universe created everybody. And so we're all equal. Stephen Matini: You make it sound so flowy and real beautiful, you know, when you're talking. And one thing that I always wonder is how is it that some people are able to change their mindset as you did, you know, and to really overcome it and others instead get stuck there, you know? So what did you do? How did you make that humongous shift in yourself? Michelle Kuei: Before I answer that question, sometimes I joke about myself that I have this young looking Asian body, but my soul is really old. I have a very ancient soul. And so to answer your question is that you have to be ready. And there's no rush into getting ready for that mindset shift. And so this is something that I observed, also something that I experienced is no matter how I know the podcast is called Pity Party. A lot of us are staying in that pity party for a very, very long time. But it's not because we don't want to get out of that pity party, or we don't want to, you know, advance ourselves or better ourselves. We don't want to look at the positive aspects of things. It's just that we're not ready. And I think the universe by design has a lesson plan, a giant project plan for everybody. I don't know what it looks like. I don't know what the agenda is, but there is a universal big plan for everybody. And each lesson on that universal plan, it's teaching you a lesson, right? So maybe the lesson I need to learn during this stage of my life is gratitude. I need to learn how to appreciate. Or the next stage in my life, I need to learn forgiveness. I need to learn how to forgive to people. And so we're going to see evidence and lessons or teaching moments where we continue to experience the emotional triggers or external trigger that teaches the lesson of forgiveness. I want you to forgive this person. I want you to forgive that person. I want you to let go of yourself. And so we continue to find ourselves learning those lessons repeatedly until we can master it. And once you master it, then you can move on to the next lesson. But how does that agenda look? I have no idea. I don't know, but I trust it. I trust there's a universal plan. And so the people who are stuck in the pity party still in that pity party have, we have everything, the ice cream, the chocolate, everything full on. We're not ready yet. We're not ready to move on to the next stage of life. And so for me, that stage of life, I felt it was evolutional. It was ever evolving. And when I finally got out of my pity party, I was gifted a book and it was from Eckart Tolle, The Power Now. And he made me realize that there's two thinking mind, right? There's an unconscious mind and there's mind that's just in our everyday evolution, the conscious mind. And so it made me realize that I have this dual identity of myself. One is who I believe I am, and one who I truly am. And it is the one that I truly am that overrules everything else I experienced in this life. And so I was on a journey to discover who I truly am. And that was the moment that made me realize that, huh, pity party is something I can choose to attend or to choose to thank you very much for the invitation. I am not here to party, right? So you started to see the options of making that choice and making a decision for yourself. And I think the roots from decision come from a Latin roots of you need to sever, right? You need to decide. It means that you have to pick, choose between the two. You have to make a sever between the choices that you have. And so to me, that was the moment where I realized that, oh, I don't have to feel and think and look at this way about my life, how sorry I am, how small I am. I can choose to see the other way. And that was a pivotal moment for me because everything else changed when I started to recognize the fact that I can choose to see my life differently. Stephen Matini: Do you ever have sleep ups moments that somehow you may go back to the old behavior? Michelle Kuei: All the time. I think it's a constant thing because we're living in a real life and there's a lot of things that whether it's causing by ourselves or triggered by someone else, when I see someone else's success, it makes me think about, hmm, what am I not doing to be that person, to be that successful, right? And so I go into this comparison mode very quickly in comparing myself and how poorly I am doing in my life, how much less money I'm making, how much less title I have and how slow I'm moving. So I'm constantly comparing myself to others. Stephen Matini: You're describing me? (laughing) Michelle Kuei: I think I'm describing a lot of people, you know, I would love for people to if you're listening to the podcast, you know, just drop a comment in Stephen’s feed if you resonate with this, because that comparison mind is just never quiet. And one of the good things about comparison is this is how we improve. This is how we become better. And so we can choose to see comparison as, oh, it's something negative. You should never compare. I would encourage people to actually compare yourself. Use someone else to be your aspiration, right? Compare yourself to that person. But what you want to think about is how can you better yourself to be even better than that person is? And this is how we continue to master our skills, master our knowledge, mastering everything that we do so that we can be better than that person. I can be a lot more creative. And then that successful person who's making a lot of money, I can outgrow that person. And only if you believe that your ability and your strength and your superpower is within you, nothing else is going to matter. Stephen Matini: But when you feel that the moment of whatever, you know, self-doubt that you may go back to, you know, to the whole posture, the whole behavior is about to happen. Is there anything specifically you do? You mentioned that you are very physical, you know, is there also other tools that you use in order to make sure, nope, I'm not going to go that way. I'm going to choose, you know, this one, this path, which is more, you know, which is better for me. Michelle Kuei: I keep a judgment journal. So I have like journals in the back. I have books and everything. I keep judgment journal. And judgment journal, basically, it's very simple, very easy to do. And listeners can do this at home. You take out a sheet of paper and what you do is you write down the things that you're judging. You're judging whether you're judging someone else, you're judging yourself. What is it that you're saying to yourself right now? And usually it's very negative. It carries a lot of like, I need to be better than this. I should do this. I have to do this. So it's very negative. So you write down that phrase that you're telling yourself that you're judging yourself or others. And then what you do is your next step is to come up with three different ways of how you're going to say that same thing, but you're going to look at it in a more positive way. So let's say I'm too short. Stephen is too tall. And that's a judgment statement. That's a fact, but it's also a judgment. I'm too short. I wish I can be I can be taller. You know I asked for this for every Christmas, but never, I never got it. And during the Christmas, I don't believe in Santa. No, that's another story. But so I would write down, I am too short and I feel too short, too small. And I would come up with three different ways of saying this again in a positive way. So I am too short, but I am very gifted in public speaking, for example. I am small, but you know great thing comes in small packages anyway. Like the Tiffany, the Tiffany rings. Everybody wants. It comes in the tiniest, smallest package. So I'm OK with that. So you come up with three different ways of saying the same thing, but in a positive tone of voice. When you start building a habit in doing that, you'll notice the next time you judge someone or judging yourself, you're very quickly, it's like the muscle that we train in going to the gym, right? So you're very quickly, you're going to come up with an alternative perspective of, eh, yeah, this is what I'm thinking, but this is what I can think. And so now I have choices. Which one do I want to choose? So you're allowing yourself to giving yourself an option to choose. If you do it regularly and it becomes a habit, it becomes second nature to us. The moment that you judge, you're going to choose the one that's more positive because it makes you feel good. Stephen Matini: So it's a mental gymnastics, basically. Michelle Kuei: Mm-hmm. Yep. Stephen Matini: And by the way, while you're talking, I'm comparing myself to you and I feel a bit of a loser. If I have to be honest, no, I don't do this. I'm not doing that. Not all the time, but you know. Michelle Kuei: You see, we're all equal. You know, our feeling is all mutual. You know, for me, it was my height. My height was driving me nuts. It was like, I wish I could be taller. I wish I could be prettier. You know, I wish I could be sexier. I wish I could wear this. You know, I can wear that. But, you know, at the end of the day, we all have some similar thoughts and idea around that. Oh, I wish I can talk like her. I wish I have her. Yeah, it's always like that. Stephen Matini: Last time, there was another, when we talked, there was another word that goes to my head that you mentioned, which is the notion of visibility. And I love the word. So what does visibility mean to you? Michelle Kuei: Visibility means that you're showing up and being an authentic self. I know it's an overused word, but you know it's about showing up and just genuinely being who you are. And you know what's interesting is a lot of people think that visibility, whether it's on social media or in person, it's about making yourself high up being perceived as someone who has the authority, someone who is celebrity. But in reality, visibility means that when you have an opinion or when you want to say something, you say it, what's on your mind without thinking that, you know, I'm going to make people feel offended. I'm going to you know making sure that I side with the popularity of the people pleasing side. Visibility is about being truly who you are, saying what's on your mind, telling people what you truly believe in. So you show up with value, authenticity, you show up with character, your voice, and your opinion. And you do it in a way that is going to elevate everybody. When I speak, whether it's in person or on social media, I always ask myself, what is the purpose of me talking? And if there's no purpose, then why am I still talking? I'm not teaching anybody. I'm not elevating people's consciousness or mindset, or it makes them feel better for their day, making their day, then why am I still talking? It sends off a message to me that when I'm visible, I'm going to show up with my character. I'm going to show up with my value. I'm going to show up with my belief. And all this becomes so loud and clear that you don't have to do anything else. People see you, people hear you, people recognize you for who you are. And it's just a natural thing for people who are just attracted to you. And so how do we use this is a lot of time, if you're a business owner, you can use the visibility of what I talked about, the character, the value, and how you're showing up, your voice, your opinion, your beliefs. This becomes your natural attraction, your client attraction mode. People attract to the people who they resonate with character, values, and beliefs. And so you become this natural attraction magnet that people just draw into you. It doesn't need to have any reason. People will just come to you. And if it's in a everyday activity and interaction, visibility becomes something that you simply living in your purpose. You're living with the intention of today, this is me. This is how I am. I am true to myself. This is what I believe in. And when everybody starts doing that, our whole world become a better world. And that is my goal. Stephen Matini: What if someone somehow did not have much of an understanding of her authentic self? You know, just I'm not sure who I am authentically. What could it be the first step to take to go in that direction? Michelle Kuei: The first step would be to hire a coach. What to start working with, Stephen .. Stephen: Who’s clueless! Michelle Kuei: Who’s a little more advanced. The reason why people are not seeing their true authentic self or they don't know who they are is because there's a lot of that beliefs, that unconscious world that we have been conditioned to. We've been training schools to believe that we need to behave. We need to follow the agenda. We need to follow the classroom. We need to follow the society rule. We need to follow everybody else's rule. But underneath all the rules, the rules are created by people for people. But we're more than just the people. We have the soul. We have the body. We have the thinking. We have the superpower that's within that we don't even recognize that we have the superpower. And so if you take away all the conditioning, all the teaching, all the rules that we had to follow, it is up to you to decide who are you globally. I think the reason why we have so many different disasters and things and conflicts is because we forget our true identity. And so we find ourselves in this identity crisis. We have no idea why we're doing things for what we do. I really love Simon Sinek, his book, Start With Why. And when you find yourself in that identity crisis, I call it a crisis. If you don't know who you truly are, then you're in this identity crisis. You're just following everybody else's rule and that you believe that this is who you are. But in reality, you're so much powerful than what you believe in. And in order to recognize what you're capable of, you have to understand your why. Why are we here? Why are you here? What is your big mission? What is your big purpose? And some people are like, wait, what? You mean I have other purpose than going to a job? Yeah, you have bigger purpose than going to a job. Can you believe that? Yes. You have better, bigger purpose than going to be a husband, a wife, you know, a teenager who take your school bag and go into the school, you have bigger purpose. But you also have to do the lessons that the universe is showing you and teaching you. Because each time you learn those lessons, it's showing you a piece of who you are. We learn our values. We learn our characters. We learn all these from our life experiences. Stephen Matini: Michelle, how do you find out what lesson or lessons you're supposed to learn? Michelle Kuei: I saw patterns in all the things that I have experienced. There was a period of time where I was in my 20s and you know in my twenties and thirties, I was like ready to be in the dating world, right? So I was trying out different dating apps. I went out a couple of dates with guys. And each time I go and I got rejected, I felt bad. I felt terrible. I felt miserable. I felt like there's something wrong with me. And this is why they don't want me. This is why they don't want to be with me. And initially, that was my thought. That was my idea. But when I started to see the reputation, repetition of people are rejecting because they're going after the physical, the physical appearance, the physical attraction. And what they made me realize was, OK, I don't have that. So that's what you want. Goodbye. That's not me. What I do have, I started to recognize what I do have. I have big heart. I'm always willing to give. Generosity was one of my big gifts to a lot of people, even in my business today. Generosity is something that I'm very proud of. And so I started to recognize the pattern of what people are showing me by rejection, by telling me that, oh, this is what I'm looking for. And this is what you're presenting. And this is what you don't have. I'm not going to say that at that moment, it was not hurtful. It was pretty hurtful. And I took a while. I was in my pity party. I had balloons. I had party hats on. I was in the full mode pity party. But then after that pity party, I started to recognize the fact that that may not be something that I have, but I have something else that others don't. And that's okay. So I'm going to embrace what I have and I'm going to stand proud of what I have. Stephen Matini: So it's about being mindful of patterns and things that repeat patterns and what they're trying to teach you. I agree. I call them whispers because they are all over the place. They are all around us, but you have to be aware of them. You know If you go too fast, if you're not that present, it's very difficult to see them because they're not super loud. They happen all the time, but I always sense they're kind of, you know, whispers, like very subtle sounds, you know, I believe that in your business, you specifically focus on empowering women. Why you decided to the women was your thing? Michelle Kuei: First of all, I'm a woman. And there's certain things that in a society as that we live today, there's still the community of women who do not get the same equality, who does not get the same treatment compared to the men, compared to all these other people on the top as a leadership. It's a very unfortunate and very sad moment for us to continue to work on, because the women's history has been over 100, I believe by now it's 105, 105 years, right? So we celebrated women's history. But over the last 100 years, women still remain to be somewhat, I know I'm going to say this and men are not going to like it. We still remain to be the minority in decision-making. So a lot of the important things that's being made on the top, women are still kind of like, here's your job, you do more, but this is what you're getting paid for, right? And so women, when they come home, not only do they have to do the job, they have to go home and take care of the family, there's still a lot of expectation out of women. But a lot of these women are very, very gifted and talented. Only if the society and the world give them an opportunity, a stage to show their expertise, to show their talent, the world would be a much better place. Coming from women, you know of course I'm going to say that. But I do believe that if we give women an equal opportunity with pay, with the opportunity, with the leadership, with the expertise that they're capable, they're demonstrating. If we treat everybody the same, then these women are going to move the world. They're going to change the world. So I have this vision in my business where I am that someone who may be a few steps before them, and I'm reaching to the top, almost to the top, I'm turning around and I'm holding on a chain, a woman. I'm holding on to one woman, and that woman is holding on to the next woman. So we create this human chain one person at a time. And I'm about lifting one woman up so that that woman can go out and create that ripple effect to make a change for anyone who's coming to her world. And so I chose women community because, first of all, I'm one of them. And when I was building my business, when I was in the world, I wanted to have a community of women where I share the same vision. I share the same energy. You know When we talk, it's like, you know we're having a pajama party. I know yours is pity party, but you know we're having a pajama party. And so it's a very different dynamic when we have a group of women together. I would say that a lot of men nowadays has become the minority on the contrary because the woman empowerment is like all over, right? So now people are looking at to the equality and diversity. But I think personally, I still have that affinity. It's my sisterhood. And we just need to find our tribe that we feel comfortable in supporting. And sisterhood is where I find my passion. It's where it lights me up, just thinking about them. It brings a smile to my face on a daily basis when I work with them. And so it's in the community that I chose to serve. Stephen Matini: So does your chain of women have space for a feminist guy like me? Michelle Kuei: Absolutely. You are invited to our pajama party. You do have to put on your pajama. Stephen Matini: You know, I'm not a woman and I will never know what it feels to be a woman. So I can only, you know, listen. But I agree with you 100%. And I also do believe, and I sense that the future really needs female leadership for a bunch of different reasons. And you covered a lot of them. But yeah, there's something very distinct about being a woman that I believe the world needs right now. So I agree with you, you know, full heartedly. Michelle Kuei: I believe the world needs everybody. And so earlier, I talked about the purpose, right? So every single one of us has a purpose. And no matter what gender you are or what identity you choose for yourself, the world needs everybody and everybody has a role in it. There's no exclusion. There's no inclusion. There's just us. There's just we, right? We're all in this together. And however that you decide to serve in this world, it's good because it's a purpose. You're serving your purpose. And that in itself, it's the ultimate goal of what the world needs to be. So no matter what identity that you choose, the world appreciate you. And that's more important. That's the belief that we need in this world. Stephen Matini: Yeah, and probably it's a way of being that we need. I know I call it feminist. I don't know what it is, but gender for sure historically has a huge weight. But it's a more distinctive way of being and showing up in the world with the people, you know, and all that. You know, of all possible directions that your career has taken, you have developed such a fond passion for marketing. Why marketing? Michelle Kuei: Marketing makes me alive. I think I've been, my personality has always been, I'd like to be with people. I'd like to have conversation with people. So people are my people. And I find all ways to be with people in conversation. And marketing in the core of it is about having conversation. It's about building a relationship. It's about serving that person to exactly what that person needs. And you do that by understanding what that person is going through. And one of the things, I can't remember, it was this week or last week, I was talking about the core of what makes a good marketer or good coach being a good coach. And one of the essence of being a good coach is that you have to have empathy. Empathy is your superpower, both in coaching and both in marketing. Marketing relies on a lot of your empathy. You have to understand what your client is going through or your customer is going through in order to understand and meet what is it that they're looking for, what their need is so that you can create product, you can create services for that person. And so empathy is really your superpower. And I think empathy has been a big lesson for me to learn from my journey when I was very young. After the accident, I spent five years within a rehab center and I was exposed to a lot of different other children, other teenagers who experienced a similar trauma. And back then, we had a group of people who are experiencing polio. Back then in the '70s, there was an outbreak of polio in Taiwan, in Asia country. So a lot of these children, they're having polio. And so when I was exposed and saw what they have to go through, it taught me how to empathize with them. I may not look the same way, but I knew their struggle. I knew that, you know, being, bound on a wheelchair, you cannot reach to the top. And I knew just by interacting with them, I knew what it feels like. And so it was teaching me how to empathize with people who may look different, who feel different. And it taught me to recognize their emotion, their feelings, their limitation, and how I can help them to serve them, to make it easier for them, right? So I learned that skills at a very young age without recognizing that this is empathy. And so I took that lesson later on in life, and I was still practicing empathy along the way. And when I finally got into marketing, I was like, oh my goodness, this is exactly what I need in order to understand what my client is going through. In order to help them to see that your client is experiencing this, how can you position your service to help your clients? And so in other words, I wasn't just teaching them about marketing. I was teaching them how to empathize so that they can create the product and services that they can help their clients. Stephen Matini: We covered so many different things. All of them are really super, super important. If you have to point out, one, that somehow you believe a listeners should pay attention to, what would you say that is? Michelle Kuei: Permission. I think from what we have talked about today, it's really that permission to be vulnerable in a position or a permission to allow yourself, there's going to be days that totally doesn't make your day look great and you feel miserable. So the permission is to give yourself to have that moment, to OK, to put the balloon up, put your potty hat on, and have that pity party, but give you permission also to get into that moment of, I feel bad about myself, but I'm going to put on the time clock. I'm going to allow in the next five minutes to feel miserable. But after that five minutes, I'm going to take off my party hat and move on and think about what is the opportunity here? What do I need to learn? But permission is important because it allows us to reset and it allows us to bounce back. So just like the coil, you need to stretch, but you also need to allow it to go back to its original state so you can stretch further. Stephen Matini: Michelle, you are, to me, you are gigantic. So you feel huge. You feel immense. Thank you so much for all these insights and for your energy. I absolutely love it. Thank you. Michelle Kuei: Thank you so much for having me. Even though this is our second time meeting each other, but I feel like I know you forever. Stephen Matini: Me too.
2 Oct 2024
Show Up for Myself: Selena Blackmore on Becoming Independent and Finding Purpose
When we constantly prioritize others' expectations over our needs, we become mentally and emotionally exhausted, leaving little room to focus on what truly matters to us. In this episode of Pity Party Over we explore how embracing authenticity and purpose can lead to both personal and professional freedom, even in the face of fear and uncertainty. Our guest today is Selena Blackmore, an intuitive life and transformation coach who helps individuals reconnect with their life purpose. Selena spent nearly 20 years in the corporate world, constantly seeking new challenges. However, she ultimately felt unfulfilled by the persistent politics and lack of connection to her values, realizing her calling lay elsewhere. Having a personal conversation about meaning, freedom, and legacy is crucial, whether we decide to be independent professionals or continue in the corporate world. Being true to ourselves is more than just a career move—it’s a lifelong path of growth that helps us stay aligned with who we truly are. Listen to the episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast platform (https://linktr.ee/pitypartyover) to learn how to become an authentic and emotionally engaging leader. Subscribe to Pity Party Over for more insightful episodes. Questions? Email Stephen Matini or send him a message on LinkedIn. TRANSCRIPT Stephen Matini: My first question for you is actually something that I see in a lot of people's eyes when I talk to them, you know, to professionals. At some point, you decided to become an independent professional. So how was the transition for you? What inspired you to make the leap? Because that's something a lot of people would love to do, but somehow never bring themselves to the point of doing it. Selena Blackmore: Because I spent almost 20 years in corporate and a great company, and I moved around a lot in that space. So I had, I call it a luxury of having a very big company where even within that company, I could almost sort of redefine myself. So I would purposely, every two to three years, would go out and look for something different, something new, something I hadn't done before. I have, I would call probably a fairly I don't have low attention spans the right way, but I get bored quite quickly. So I get someone that I like learning and I like doing new things. So I felt like if I was in a job for two, three years, and I kind of I feel like I'm there now, I wouldn't kind of stay with it and be like, OK, let's just, you know, let's just enjoy the ride. I'd be like, no, I need to go and push myself out somewhere else. And it wasn't really like a conscious decision, I'm now going to set up my own company. I always knew since, you know, very early on that at some point I wanted to be independent, self-employed, and go into that direction. But I'd always thought it would be later in life when my children were older, etc. And it was just things that happened. So my position basically was there was a reorg. My position didn't exist anymore. And I spent three years doing different things in the company. And again, I had a luxury. This was a very it's a very good company, right? So I was allowed to go and try out different things. Again, new areas. And I just felt the same things were coming out that just they weren't aligning with me. So it was just the same things that this thing is still bugging me. You know, it's still the politics, or it's still this, or it's still that. And there was just a moment when I was like, you know, why not just go for it? And when I decided to make the move, I didn't have a big plan. It wasn't like I had a detailed business plan. I hadn't got it all figured out. It was very much a hard decision of this is try. What's the worst that can happen? I guess I kind of went into it thinking, you know, worst case scenario, if it doesn't work out, I can just go get a job again. And I just knew I didn't want to stay in that company. So I just thought, well, let's go. Let's go try. And I have to admit that I am a bit of a risk taker, so I am someone that probably does take risks in life. I think I also just had a sense of trust. It will work itself out. Or even if it doesn't, that's also okay. So I kind of went in feeling kind of open to however it turns out. Stephen Matini: Back at the time, did you sense that there was something missing from your corporate life that you needed to find that somewhere else? Selena Blackmore: Absolutely. I think someone said beautifully, becoming independent is like the biggest journey of personal growth disguised as work or disguised as a job. And I think that's really true. I think what I was missing in my corporate world was the connection to me. So I was very lucky towards the end of that time. I was working with leadership development, so I was getting more closer to the work, I think, that was more attuned to me naturally. But I think I was just missing where I could really feel my values connecting. So, you know, my purpose in life is to serve others and support others. And I was kind of missing that I didn't really feel I was being able to do that. Or it was it felt superficial. It didn't feel real. And I think what I was missing sometimes was, even though the purpose we were working towards was was a great purpose, a fantastic purpose, I felt people were losing sight of that. So there was a lot of, you know, people got lost in the politics and wanting and looking good and all that stuff that goes on in these big companies and kind of lost sight of the purpose of why are we here? And I think I just got to a point and said, no, I want to I really want to work with people and companies and businesses that are really aligned with their purpose and still have that clearly, clearly in front of them, because it just matches more with my my values as well. Stephen: You pointed out two things that sometimes don't go hand in hand, which is you have the politics, the organizational politics and the ability of people to live their values and purpose. In your opinion, if you had stayed, hypothetically, is there something that could have been done in order to create a more authentic, driven purpose environment? Or this is just a dream that is impossible in organizations? Selena Blackmore: So for me personally, absolutely. I think where I am now, and this is actually also the kind of work that I'm now engaging in, that I think that when you are, you can be aligned with your purpose and kind of living your truth, it matters where you are, but you can do that in different environments. And I think at the time, I wasn't a space where I knew how to do that, or maybe I didn't, you know, have the right people around me there to kind of help me find how to do that. But I think, absolutely, I think finding your truth or finding your purpose may change where you're working, or it may shift, you know, exactly what you're doing, but it also may not. Because I think a lot of it's around really, when you feel that sense of being comfortable with what you do, and it's really like, you know, this is really me. This is why I wake up every morning, and I feel super excited about being me and going out there and doing work and helping others, whatever my purpose is, just that energy in itself when you're bringing it into the space you're going in, whatever that work looks like, or that job or that career, I think you can absolutely be in your purpose. From my experience with working with a lot of people and also my space of coaching, I think people feel, as you said, this is often a conflict. And I think it can be brought together. Obviously, you can only own you, right? So I think you can decide how much work you're going to put in into yourself and how you want to show up. You're going to have less control on what's going on outside. So I think you also have to be okay with you're not going to be able to maybe, you know, you can't change the other people. You're not going to necessarily change the organization. But I'm of course a big believer in like, you know, the ripple effect. So if you start showing up differently, if you start maybe bringing different energy into meetings or how you connect with people or how you lead, that will have a ripple effect on others as well. Stephen Matini: Have you ever seen the level of authenticity in your corporate experiences in someone that openness? Have you ever witnessed it? Selena Blackmore: Yes, I have. After a couple people there was so there was one person I was working in in leadership development. He was heading that group. It was so different to anything else I'd experienced in that organization. And I had moved a lot. And the organization had also transitioned a lot since when I started, also in terms of how, you know, people were being treated and how people, the expectation of how people should show up. But he just said what he thought and shared his truth. And what I specifically really respected, that he didn't care whether it was the CEO of the company, or it could have been the cleaning lady. So the way he showed up and shared his truth, he had no, he wasn't he was anti-political. So there was no like, Oh, you can't say that to that person. He was like, Well, I mean, why not? Why is that person worth more than this person? And he really lived that. He really lived that. It's hard to be like that. I think it's not easy. So I think, again, as a person to really show up like that, yeah, it takes a lot of inner strength and inner work. And I think also the awareness that, you know, you're not necessarily going to be liked by everyone. And I think it's letting go of the sense of, you know, this is going to be challenging for some people and being OK with that. And again, he wasn't he was quite open about I'm not here to be liked. I'm here to create change. I'm here to ask the difficult questions and to kind of, you know, put the elephant on the table and kind of be like, what are we talking about? And I really admire that. He's still one of my big inspirations in that company. Stephen Matini: What you just said, it must be probably the main reason why I am an independent professional, because of the luxury, the beauty of being able to create a space with people in which you can be yourself. In all these years, working with different so many people, thousands of people, from CEOs, managers, you name it, I haven't seen a single time, a moment in which people with me in that some sort of sacred space didn't feel comfortable to be themselves. And I love that because it's a space of possibilities in which people can really think. And fun enough, sometimes in that space, I have people that normally within the organization may have some difficulty of being transparent, but then when you create that bubble, people can be that. So I really wish that there was some easier way for everyone because people really suffer tremendously as a result of politics. One thing that I often investigate with people as you do is their sense of purpose. So it seems to be a gigantic question, like, you know, the meaning of life. How would you make it simpler for people? What would it be a first step to get a sense of who the heck you are? What is your purpose? Selena Blackmore: I'm actually going to share something that I just an experience I had yesterday. So I had a beautiful experience yesterday, where I was with a group of women, and it was kind of a mixed sort of art manifestation, sort of vision purpose workshop. So basically, you had you had a beautiful dinner, and then you kind of did a painting that represented just what you said, kind of what is your purpose? What's your goal for the year or your purpose? The lady that was running it, she the way she got us to introduce ourselves, which I found very profound, is she said, I want you to answer the question, Who are you? Sounds like a simple question. But then she said, but I don't want you to use your name. I don't want you to say, you know, how old you are, you know, how many kids do you have? Are you married? What is your job? What are your hobbies? Nothing that defines you kind of that we associate, we associate we create these associations, right? Well, I'm, you know, I'm single with three kids, I'm married with two, or, you know, I do this job. So leave that all away. And who are you as a person? Who are you? So who is who is Stephen? Who is Selena? And it was such a profound question and really made me sit back and I think I was like, I don't know if anyone's ever asked me to basically describe myself like that. And it's a very simple question. And I think starting with simplicity to really start thinking about who am I? Who am I as a person without all the external stuff going on is a fantastic way to really start doing exactly what you said, to really start checking into ... who am I? And then I think leading on to that is something also like, how do I want to show up for myself? I think again, and I'm sure you're familiar with this, particularly within kind of the coaching space, a lot of people, you know, want to focus up like, how do I show up as a partner? How do I show up as a parent? How do I show up as work, you know, to my family, to my friends? And these are all great questions, right? I think these are all good things to be thinking about. But I think a lot of us don't start with how do I want to show up for myself? And really kind of consciously kind of tapping into thinking about who am I? And then how do I want to show up for me? Because would you start starting from there, that's going to then automatically or the other spaces where you're going to show up, it's going to be much easier. That's going to be more in flow, because you're going to know who you are, what your essence is, you know what your purpose is. And then automatically, that will start flowing and also how you show up. It's actually a really hard question to answer, but it can be as simple as asking a question. And then, you know, you might not know. You might be like, actually, I have no idea who I am. And that's great, right? That's also good. Then, you know, but it started that process, you know, in your head and your heart. So you might then, you know, on that run or in the shower or drawing a paint, whatever you do to maybe connect in with yourself, you may then be thinking about that and then have an aha moment to be like, Oh, maybe it's not. I'm also a big fan of journaling. I don't know if you journal, Stephen? Stephen: I do. Selena Blackmore: Oh, that's fantastic. I love journaling. I've made it really my morning, my morning ritual. And I think journaling is also a great way, right? So even just writing things down that come up to you can help you sort of really think about these kind of questions. Who am I? How do I want to show up? Even asking yourself that question every morning and writing it down. And again, no judgment. There's no right or wrong. It's just what feels right to you. And then maybe things come up that you never expected or never thought about. And that's the exciting part of getting to know yourself, right, and kind of transforming. And I mean, I'm 43 now. I'm turning 44 this year, and I feel like I'm only really starting to get to know who the real me is. And I spent a long part of my life thinking or pretending to be something maybe wasn't quite me. And now I'm like, oh, no, actually, this is actually what I think I really am. And I think it's a lifelong journey. I think until we our last breath, I think it's the journey of getting to know yourself is one of the best investments I think you can do in terms of relationships that I think will have huge impact on all the other relationships you have in your life. Stephen Matini: When you made this commitment of being really authentic with yourself and decided to go, you know, to be independent professionals, what was the reaction of people around you where they are supported, where they are critical? Did you get crap? Selena Blackmore: So there was a mix. And I should maybe add that when I made the choice to go independent, that the timing was really off, right? I was quite freshly divorced. I had I have three children, a single parent, and the divorce was financially not good for me. So I was kind of kind of financially starting against the timing really wasn't good. It wasn't like, this is a smart financial, smart decision to kind of go out there and kind of put your family into risk. So there were some people that were basically like, are you sure? I think I didn't get I didn't get crap from anyone. I think no one was anywhere to my face. I put it that way. I don't know what they said behind closed doors. There probably were quite a few stuff like, Oh my God, what is she doing? So I did have people that were just you could tell like, are you sure? Again, the company I left, it's a well known company. I've been there a long time. The pay is very good. You know, I have really good paid jobs. So I was losing leaving, in theory, something very secure to go to something completely not secure and quite random. And there was kind of no plan to that. So there are definitely people that were just like, what are you doing? People closest to me, and one of my oldest friends we've known since like 13, she was probably I always say she's my biggest cheerleader. So she was definitely like, Oh my God, this is fantastic. You've got this. This is so right. And during all my time now, and I think as you know, any any person who's taken the leap to be independent, you know, it's not all fairy lights and sunshine, right? It's a bit of a rollercoaster. So you're going to have good times, you're going to have lots of good times. And she's a fantastic cheerleader. So there's been times when I've been like, oh, I'm not doing this anymore. This is too hard. And she's like, no, you've got this and hang in there. And I think having cheerleaders in your life is super important. You need to have those people. You don't need to have like a whole like a whole cheerleading team, but just having one or two is super critical. And Germany was interesting. So a lot of people were just kind of said, oh, you're very brave. So it's kind of like you're a little bit crazy, or you're very brave, or you're kind of both. But I was interested. A lot of people were actually quite positive in terms of like a bit of a sense of, as you mentioned before, like, oh, wow, I'd love to do that. Like, that's almost a little bit, I'd love to do that, but I don't feel safe enough to do that. Or people often share their ideas like what they'd like to do. But yeah, but, you know, the kids are small, or I'd be nervous about, you know, how it would work. So it was more positive than negative. Again, to my faith. What I've also learned is particularly when you're working on new ideas and they're not quite formed yet, to be a little bit careful with who you share them with as well. I think that's something I've learned, you know, sharing with your cheerleaders, right? Because they're going to be like, yeah, absolutely, you know, go for it. This sounds amazing, or it sounds great, but maybe adjust, they'll be honest with you. But be careful, you don't share with too many, because I think people can also pull you down energetically or also be kind of like, Oh, are you sure? And, you know, and yeah, if it's not going well, maybe just look for another job or, you know, do this. And that's not necessarily what you're needing to hear. So I've learned to be more careful with who I share certain things with. And yeah, definitely get make sure you have a couple of cheerleaders in there because we all need them and do it yourself as well, right? So I always then try and be a cheerleader for those around me too. Because I personally think anyone can set up their own business or become an entrepreneur or do their own thing. And interesting, if you look at it generationally, I think there are more and more younger people that are actually doing this, right? So I think it's the younger generations coming through seem to just have more of this sense of trust or like, you know, I'm going to try it and see what happens. And I think, yeah, maybe people more in my or our generation are still like quite risk adverse. But yeah, I mean, I think anyone can. I think you have the vision and you have the motivation and your hearts in it. I mean, why not? I think that's when we start going out, distracting ourselves, right? We start going out, finding external things to try and feel because it gives you that feeling of there's always something missing. And I think I mean, I did that, right? There's that sense of something missing, and then you'll distract yourself with working too much or, you know, doing excessive, like people that, you know, do excessive sport or whatever it is you do, you know, or, you know, change relationships a lot. You'll find your search for external ways of trying to fill that gap, because it's not a nice feeling, right? And at some point, you might realize that nothing's going to fill that gap, right? Because that gap has to be filled by you and you looking inwards and kind of connecting. When you lose a lot in a short space of time, it makes you realize, you know, everything is just so in the moment, right? What we have now could disappear very, very soon. I mean, I lost my dad when I was 25, so I lost him quite young. And then I had a period when I kind of, you know, separated with my husband, worked myself into a burnout, got divorced. And then I actually also lost my mom when I was five months pregnant with my daughter. And she was similarly she was my rock. Like, she was my she was my everything. I mean, my mom was literally like my best friend. She was in and out of my house all my time. You know, she was helping my kids. And I lost like this, this like rock in my life. While I was five months pregnant, she never got to meet my daughters. I have two boys and a girl. She never got to meet my daughter. And, you know, there's a point when you're like on your knees, you're just like, this is I can't, you know, and you can take it because I also believe that life puts obstacles in front of you that you can deal with. But and there are opportunities for growth. But at the moment, it's really hard. But when you get through that, when you grow through that, I do believe it takes away a lot of that sense of being scared of maybe smaller things, because when you've kind of lost everything that defines you, and I remember when I was in the burnout, and I felt like I failed on my marriage, I failed at my job, everything that I felt defined me as a person, and you're left with nothing. You're like stripped bare. It's very humbling. It's a humbling experience, right, where you really need to think about, okay, well, what am I then? I think that was really the first one of the first nudges when I had to start thinking about, well, who am I? You know, if I'm not, you know, this family unit that I wanted to be, I'm not the successful corporate person that I thought I was, and that kind of taking that step back or being forced to take that step back and reevaluate who am I is humbling. But it does, as you said, help you to maybe take more high risk decisions later on, because you're like, well, I've lost it all. So as you said, what's the worst that can happen? And I think, you know, I'm the most grateful every day for my health, because I think health is just the utmost thing we can have. And for the health of my children and my loved ones, and everything else is just cherry on the top, right? I mean, if we're healthy, if we can wake up every day and we're healthy, we can move our bodies, then everything else is, it's the sprinkles and the fairy dust that adds to our lives. Stephen Matini: And even now, when I think about what is the worst possible thing that it can possibly happen to me, whereas before, it was a lot of fear. And now I think, oh, wow, that would be really, really hard, but I'm going to live it. I'm going to experience it no matter what that is, you know, because that's really, that really is what makes me alive. So I think for me, it was a lot of trying to avoid, you know, that pain. And it's something you cannot avoid because inevitably life brings you that. So ... Selena Blackmore: yeah, and then it's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that because it just makes me think of when you said we're trying to avoid pain. And it's also a lot of it's what we have in our heads, right? So we create this, we create this. I'm going to say fake reality. And I know because I used to do this all the time. I mean, when I was a child, I was this huge worry. I'd worry about anything and everything that could ever happen. I had quite high anxiety as a child. And we create these like stories in our head about everything that's going to happen. And we tend to default to the negative, right? So, you know, you get an email from your boss that just said, oh, can we meet? You know, can we meet in half an hour? And you don't have a meeting plan. And automatically, I had to go, have I done something wrong? Why do they want to see me? Well, you know, oh my God, have I not done something? And you go to all the things instead of like, you know, my manager wants to check in with me. And I'm really looking forward to it. So I feel we default very quickly to the negative and create these stories about, you know, all these terrible things that can happen, I still catch myself doing this. And then after you're like, Oh, okay, you know, it wasn't. And I personally say, I find it's actually really hard work to consciously like stop yourself from doing that, to really work in, you know, being in the present and be like, No, I'm here now, because the future is not is not reality, right? Because it hasn't happened. It's just in our heads of what we've created. This avoidance of pain or, you know, being being left, you know, the sense of lack of something. Again, it's not real. It's just what we are telling ourselves with this story we're creating in our head. And I think we're finding ways of whether it's, you know, through mindfulness, meditation, or whatever, journaling, lots of different ways of really helping yourself to be more in the present. I'm a big believer in breath work. So you know, kind of like breathing. If you're feeling, as you said, you said beautifully, you learn to feel more in your body. Where am I feeling anxiety? Is it my chest, my heart, my stomach, and breathe into that? And that can that can have huge shifts. I mean, just it can be simple things. I think people sometimes think, Oh, I need to meditate every day for half an hour, and I don't have time for that. You don't, you don't. I don't have time to meditate every day for half an hour. But it can be just literally sitting and breathing for like a minute, 30 seconds, breathing into the ocean and then letting that go and then being like, OK, now I'm ready. And I'm going to go on. And as he said, I'm going to go forth into it. And I think releasing that sense of all that worry in your head, finding spaces where you can connect to you, I think is such a pivotal practice in embracing, you know, who you are. And as you said, going through the emotions, because they're all there for a reason. I mean, fear is a good thing, right? We have fear for a reason. I mean, fear, we have fear millions of years ago. We need to have fear to survive, right? We need to when we had to run away from the Sabertooth tigers and, you know, whatever else is trying to eat us, basically. So I've had to do a lot of work with embracing my fear and basically saying to my fear, thank you for being there. You've kept me safe in situations that could have been dangerous for me. You've kept me safe and I could have, you know, done stupid things or hurt myself. But there are going to be times when I just don't need you. So again, it's I think the sense of and I love how you describe it, letting all the emotions be a part of you, because as soon as you reject something, the way the universe usually works, it's going to throw it back in your face, right? I mean, it's like, even you drive, I don't want to have fear or I don't want to feel pain. It's like, yeah, okay, we know you don't, but you're going to get it. And then usually what happens is that you're going to attract more of it until you decide to have a look at it. So learning to love all your emotions goes back to what we discussed is, you know, who you are and showing up as yourself and loving yourself, right? I think falling in love with yourself more, which is, I think, again, something we're not used to doing. It's really hard for us to love ourselves, truly. And something, this is my lifelong mission. I think I will be doing until the end is really working on, you know, loving myself and loving me. Stephen Matini: You know, if you can be of any consolation, because you are still so young, bear in mind that when you pass 50, that feeling becomes even deeper. Yeah. Selena Blackmore: Oh, so I'm excited now. So now I can look forward to that. Thank you. Stephen Matini: Yeah, like, you know, when I when I turned 40, I thought, oh boy, I thought I knew something at 30 now, you know, and it was really in 40s, I think a wonderful. But now, you know, my 50s, it's almost like you tear apart another layer, another layer, another layer, like everything, anything you're saying, it becomes even much more so, you know, so you'll see. Selena Blackmore: I'm excited now. Thank you. You've helped me look forward to me turning 50. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because if I think back when I turn 30, you kind of think, oh, I've got to all fit it out now, right? And you're just like, no, you don't. But it's funny how you go through those stages of thinking like, you know, you've got you have this image in your life, image of how you want your life to be, and you set it up that way. And then, yeah, you realize that it's maybe not. And that's good. I think it's good. It's part of your part of the learning curve, right, of experience yourself in different stages. Stephen Matini: It does. And for me, being free is such an important thing. Being free means a lot of stuff. It means exactly what you said, like, have a sense of who I am, enjoy my life. And as time goes by, I do see the freedom becoming more and more and more. So I think it's a beauty probably of aging. Certain things, unfortunately, you just do not know when you're younger. But as you age, you have that. It's difficult for all of us to age, but the understanding and the, I don't know, awareness that you have, it becomes so much richer for sure. As a result of all this transformation, how do you define success these days? Selena Blackmore: Very differently to probably actually even five years ago or a couple of years ago, even actually no, even since to when I started my business, it's changed, evolved a lot. I think for me, success now is being able to really live my truth. So do follow my purpose, be able to live that, be able to do that every day, and kind of make that also how I earn my money. So kind of, you know, make that into also how I attract abundance into my life. And also, for me, success is, and you touched on it. I think having a having a clearer sense of what's really important to me in life, that makes sense. So I think when I was younger, I was probably I haven't been super driven by money. Money's not been super motivated for me, but I think I was much I was used to be more driven by kind of position and role. And I definitely have, you know, I was quite driven about where I wanted to go career wise. And I think now it's one of my I say my biggest luxury I have now is time, like time has become so important to me. You know, time I have with my children, time I have with my friends, time I have with me. It's like I spent a long time of my life where I put myself really far back behind everyone else. And I feel now I'm really starting to change that balance. There needs to be a balance, right? So just time is a huge definition of success for me. And as you said, you know, the sense of freedom. So I feel it's a huge luxury that I can have time for me. I'm not in this kind of nine to five space where I have to be somewhere and take part in seven hours of meetings a day. But I really can, you know, choose the people I want to work with, choose the spaces I want to work with, work in, and just be authentic. Yeah, be authentic to me, live my truth, be authentic to me. And in that also could follow my purpose to serve, to serve others. And time, yeah, time is a huge definition of success for me now, because it's a huge luxury. When you're in the hamster wheel of work, you underestimate it because you're just kind of in it. And once you step out, and I think that was a big thing also, when I have my burnout, is once you're out of it, all of a sudden, you're like, Oh, wow, oh, there's something else. This is also kind of cool. I think it's something that I still see, particularly from a lot of my friends and social circle there, a lot of them are both working parents and with children and, you know, jobs that take quite a lot out of them. And there's always this constant sense of stress and rush and this and that. And I feel really privileged that I've been able to step back out of that and just give myself more space, give my family more space, give those around me more space. Because again, it goes back to that, how do I want to show up? And if I want to show up as being true and present for people, and if I'm constantly stressed and constantly running from here and there and there, you know, I'm not going to show up with the best version of me. Stephen Matini: When people, our listeners are going to listen to this episode, if there's someone that feels not quite authentically herself, you know, feels a sense of misalignment. Where would you say they should pay attention to? Where should they start in order to create the better alignment? Selena Blackmore: I think it's a very individual journey. And I think that's what I find so kind of exciting about working with people is that people are very different stages or very different spaces. And I think it's also very important, as you know, with the coach, you know, you need to really pick them up where they're at, right? There's no point going out there and telling, "Okay, you need to do all this big stuff?" And they're just not there yet. I mean, as I said, you can start with simple things. If someone's already started asking themselves the question, or they've already noticed, you know, something doesn't feel right, and they've already started asking themselves the question, what is it? You know, what we talked about earlier, who am I? How do I want to show up? They've already kind of planted that seed. I don't, do you know, do you know Gabby Bernstein? Stephen Matini: No. She's written several books and a lot of work around manifestation, and she talks about the power of planting a seed. And I love this analogy. So it's almost the second you kind of start putting that out there, planting that seed in you, and again, as you mentioned, not just from in your head, but also in your heart, in your body, in your emotions, that's starting to create momentum. And I think it's like starting, if you spark that seed and start to create that momentum of energy, you're already doing it. And that's why I think a lot of people underestimate you're already starting to do the work. People often feel like they need to fill in a form, or they need to do something, or they need to like, you know, go to a workshop or do X, Y, Z to start the process. But the process starts from when you've actually started recognizing, I need to change something, or something doesn't feel right, or, you know, every time this happens, I feel this thing, or I'm getting sick all the time when I do this, for example, that's already putting momentum into the energy of your inner journey, right, to recognize, what do I need to do? And then I think to take it from there, it can be a variety of things, right? It can be array of beautiful, wonderful coaches, therapists, workshops. I'm a great believer in also when you sow the seed, kind of putting that energy out there and asking for what needs to come to me to come to me. So almost rather than worrying about, okay, but what coach should I take? And what will be the right therapy? Because again, we go back into that head of, what if I don't find the right person? And I don't know what I need, but just say, you know, I want someone to help me with this, or I would like some guidance, and then let that go. And I swear, because it's happened to me so many times, it will come to you, right? You'll either Google the right person, or you'll bump into a friend, and they'll be like, Oh, you know, I know someone, you know, Stephen’s a great coach, you know, you should get in touch with him. Or, you know, if you think about even how we got connected, right? I mean, that was through someone we both know, someone who I worked with, you know, about over four years ago, I haven't, you know, seen for a long time. So there are constant nudges out there. So it's a sense of just letting that go and seeing what comes to you and being open, and then the right people will come to you. It's important to be open. That's why I go back to that. If you're too much in your head about worrying about the right coach, the right therapist, the right, what you should be doing, it will block it. But yeah, I think it's the work started from when you first recognize that there's something to be done. So you're already doing it. Be compassionate with yourself, right? I mean, again, give yourself a pat in the back that you're even exploring this, because there are so many people out there that just aren't. And again, there's no judgment, but just aren't doing this yet. And the fact that you're even thinking or exploring what else is there, you know, who you are, why something doesn't feel aligned, that's already amazing. They're already doing that's already amazing. So be compassionate with yourself and be kind and say, Hey, wow, you know, I'm already doing something, because we're hard on ourselves. I try and be compassionate with so many people. And I had a coach once say to me, like, you don't leave any compassion for yourself. Where's your compassion part in that in that? And I think it's, yeah, we need to be a little bit give ourselves a bit more self love. Stephen Matini: In addition to what you said, I agree with you 100% in terms of where to start, one thing that I've learned over the years is to seek the help of people that have been there, that have done that, that have a lot of experience. Yeah, I think I owe a lot to amazing mentors and coaches and professionals that provided that. I call it the craftsmanship, you know, the experiences. They really helped me taking so many shortcuts in many, many different ways, rather than having to experience every single possible thing myself. And so for that, because you have been through that, I think people should talk to you because you know how it feels, you know, you know how it feels. You know how difficult it is. So people should get in touch with you. Selena Blackmore: They’re more than welcome to. They're more than welcome to. But I agree. I think authenticity of the people you speak to is very important. And it also probably depends a little bit on if there's a certain area in your life you really want to work on, right? It could be whether it's, you know, more with parenting, you know, relationship with children, relationship with partners, work yourself. But again, that's what I think I was I meant before. I think if you put it out there, you'll attract those people that will have that experience or have that space that will help you. And I think it's also the experience, but also inspirational. As I mentioned, this great art and manifestation workshop we did, I was able to be part of it was just inspiring. It's just a lot of inspiration of talking to people, as you said, that being through the same. And there's a sense of automatic connection and that sense of presence that it disconnects you as well. And I think it helps you to kind of grow from that. So absolutely. I think we should there's so much knowledge and love and learning from people around us, and we don't tap into enough. I think there's a lot more out there and we don't tap into enough. It's a huge space where we can get better in as a community in the world is tapping more into the people around us. Because I think there's a lot more out there that we realize. Stephen Matini: Selena, I've learned a lot today. Thank you for sharing with me your authenticity. Thank you very much. Selena Blackmore: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you. It's been great.

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