Join the women behind the magic of Dog Gone Seattle, the largest foster-based dog rescue in the Pacific Northwest, and hear the behind-the-scenes chronicles of rescue, the comedies and the errors, the celebrations and the abject failures, and everything in between, including expert opinions on all things Dog.
3.7: “Science Says” — Stress, Welfare, and Punishment: Dogma vs. Reality with Dr. Melanie Uhde
“Science” is often invoked in dog training discussions to signal intelligence, moral superiority, and to shame those who advocate for balanced approaches. In Episode 3.7, hosts Jenny Nordin and Ashlyn Kauh sit down with neurobiologist and dog trainer Dr. Melanie Uhde to examine what science actually says about stress, punishment, welfare, and learning—and what that means for modern dog training.
Together, they unpack the studies most commonly cited to condemn punishment, explaining why many fail to reflect real-world training and why metrics like cortisol or body language alone don’t capture long-term outcomes such as confidence, resilience, and success in real homes. They differentiate acute vs. chronic stress and explore stress inoculation, highlighting research that shows how appropriate stress can build coping skills and improve behavioral and neurological outcomes.
The conversation also tackles aversive control, discussing why—when applied correctly—it can be more reliable, persistent, and generalizable than reward-only approaches. Finally, they connect the science to everyday life with dogs, addressing puppies, fosters, fearful dogs, and why aversive control shouldn’t be treated as a last resort. This is a nuanced, evidence-based discussion focused on moving past ideology and toward training that genuinely improves dogs’ lives in the real world.
Mentions:
Melanie Uhde Biograph (https://www.caninedecoded.com/about)
Michael Ellis (https://michaelellisschool.com/)
Cooper study (https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/veterinary-science/articles/10.3389/fvets.2020.00508/full)
Ivan's podcast discussion on Cooper study (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVG7OiG47-I)
Shocking rats causes aggression (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1338539)
Stress inoculation in mice (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4354359/)
Dopamine and aversive control (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8182476/)
Scientific terms defined:
Confirmation Bias
Methods
Causation
Correlation
Control
Cortisol
Stress inoculation
Hippocampus
Learned helplessness
Early Neurological Stimulation (ENS)
Social:
Dr. Melanie Uhde
Facebook: @Dr.Melanie.Uhde (https://www.facebook.com/dr.melanie.uhde)
Instagram: @caninedecoded (https://www.instagram.com/caninedecoded)
So You Want to Run a Dog Rescue
Facebook: @DGS.Podcast (https://www.facebook.com/dgs.podcast)
Instagram: @DGS.Podcast (https://www.instagram.com/dgs.podcast)
Email: soyouwanttorunadogrescue@gmail.com (mailto:soyouwanttorunadogrescue@gmail.com)
00:00 3.7: Science Says with Dr. Melanie Uhde
06:11 Why this conversation matters right now
15:03 Methodological issues with frequently cited studies
26:51 Welfare conclusions
37:08 The case for stress
44:26 Implications for epidemic of anxious dogs
49:56 The role of ENS
53:13 The case for punishment
58:14 How to prevent fallout from punishment
01:04:30 Why punishment should not be a 'last resort'
01:11:20 Advice for adopters
01:15:33 Simply daily habits for the average dog owner to build dog's resilience
01:20:08 Final last questions
28 Dec 2025
Starting with Science: A Primer on Operant Conditioning (and Where We Stand on Training, Officially)
Recorded six weeks ago—if that gives any indication of how busy things have been — Episode 3.6 is short, sweet, and sets the table for the Season 3 finale with Dr. Melanie Uhde.
Before taking listeners all the way to Science Town, hosts Jenny Nordin and Ashlyn Kauh start with the basics: operant conditioning, the four quadrants, and what “punishment” actually means—hint: the dog decides, and it’s not a squirt bottle (at least not for Jenny’s GSD, Mando).
Beyond terminology, this episode marks the first time balanced training is the main topic of discussion. Against the backdrop of an ideological war between training camps (and after experiencing some truly unhinged reactions to their willingness to stop behaviors that were quite literally going to get dogs killed), Ashlyn and Jenny discuss why balanced training is not only necessary, but often life-saving. They share real-world examples drawn from a statistically significant sample size (yes, they’re being scientific now) and explore whether lived experience can meaningfully influence the broader conversation. Or not—because, Jenny wonders, is it not just all the dogs on drugs?
The episode also includes highlights from the Michael Ellis / Melanie Uhde Aversive Control seminar, including a gummy-adjacent encounter with a local trainer/breeder that very nearly didn’t make the cut.
And for listeners less invested in the science and training discussion, skip ahead to Questions: resident nutrition savant Ashlyn shares some truly useful recommendations—especially for large breeds—you won’t want to miss.
Stay tuned for Behind the Scenes where the banter is real, and listeners will understand why Shadowfax will never be invited to a podcast recording again.
POD MENTIONS:
Melanie Uhde (https://www.caninedecoded.com)
Michael Ellis School (https://michaelellisschool.com/)
Fixers Collective Reel (https://www.instagram.com/p/DRU-WmDEthZ/)
AVSAB Veterinary Position Statement (https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf)
Nutriscan (https://www.nutriscanlabs.org/products/nutriscan-1)
Optagest (https://shop.inclover.com/collections/all-digestive/products/optagest-bottle)
Mushroom Matrix Skin & Coat (https://mushroommatrix.com/products/skin-coat-matrix)
Myos (https://myospet.com/)
Connectin (https://shop.inclover.com/collections/joint-canine/products/canine-connectin)
Cosequin (https://www.chewy.com/nutramax-cosequin-hip-joint-maximum/dp/320836)
PARTNER MENTIONS:
Fixers Collective (https://www.instagram.com/fixers.collective)
Saving Great Animals (https://www.savinggreatanimals.org)
Forever Home Dog Rescue (https://www.foreverhomedogrescue.org/)
Washington Health Outreach (https://www.wahealthoutreach.org/)
Regional Animal Services King County (https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/executive-services/animals-pets-pests/regional-animal-services)
PAWS (http://www.paws.org)
ADOPTABLE DOG MENTIONS:
Tera Tails (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/?_refresh=1765434275110#action_0=pet&animalID_0=22028708&petIndex_0=0)
Moses (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/?_refresh=1765434397868#action_0=pet&animalID_0=22028707&petIndex_0=0)
Cutie Pie (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/?_refresh=1765434525037#action_0=pet&animalID_0=22028701&petIndex_0=0)
Mango (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/?_refresh=1765441114806#action_0=pet&animalID_0=21473104&petIndex_0=0)
Thoven (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/?_refresh=1765562463461#action_0=pet&animalID_0=19603027&petIndex_0=0)
Luna (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/?_refresh=1766800312157#action_0=pet&animalID_0=18235757&petIndex_0=0)
Rico (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/?_refresh=1766816441888#action_0=pet&animalID_0=21567530&petIndex_0=3)
Ask us anything via Email: soyouwanttorunadogrescue@gmail.com
Follow us on social media at @dgs.podcast
00:00 3.6 Starting with Science
01:12 Intro and exciting announcements
03:39 3.5 Recap Dogs Biting Kids Fixers Collective
10:21 Mango return
13:16 Dogs on drugs but what are the people on?
16:41 Melanie Uhde Primer
20:43 Why we haven't REALLY talked about this before
24:56 Operant Conditioning Primer: R+-P+-
28:58 Punishment determined by behavior (dog determines what is aversive)
30:58 Why punishment matters (stopping unwanted behaviors)
34:17 Rolex breeder AWKWARD
40:35 Running out of gas
42:16 Good time at the seminar
44:43 Why this is so important
47:24 Real world experience: Luna
53:41 A couple questions for Ashlyn on nutriscan (we got Joe's back) and Myos
56:49 Myos question
01:00:00 Final thoughts on "science"
01:01:49 Behind the Scenes
01:05:29 to dish or not to dish
01:06:55 dog shot in cemetery
01:07:28 Bloopers
21 Nov 2025
3.5: Dogs Biting Kids + 9-5 Crazy F*cking Shit List = Big Feelings
Season 3 Episode 5: Feral, F-bomb heavy, and full of chaos.
Hosts Jenny Nordin and Ashlyn Kauh start off “normally” enough—updates on the Dog Detective Case Files, Fixers Collective, and some behind-the-scenes strategery involving a spreadsheet so convoluted Jenny had to learn something called Javascript just to make it work. But then… Jenny goes off the rails. Spreadsheet-induced madness? Or just every day insanity of running the largest dog rescue in the PNW? You decide.
Main topic: Dogs biting kids. Not great. Often complicated, but sometimes just screamingly obvious bad (human and/or canine) parenting.
Lately, every day (9-5 and then some) has been full of Crazy Shit so this episode throws the usual segments into a blender and hits puree. (Cue the F-Bombs.) From “Dangerous Dog" designations who "just need a CGC" to maniacal keyboard warriors and delulu adopters sending novels to an overflowing inbox, the drama is real and the feelings are big.
Grab your popcorn if you're here for the soapbox. Otherwise, skip to the Questions for super useful info on Nutriscan testing for food allergies.
POD MENTIONS:
Aversive Control Seminar (https://dr-melanieuhde.lpages.co/aversive-control-seminar-signup/)
Michael Ellis School (https://michaelellisschool.com/)
Melanie Uhde (https://www.caninedecoded.com/) [Canine Decoded]
Bite Level in Dogs (https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&catId=254077&id=10004159) [Veterinary Partner]
NutriScan (https://www.nutriscanlabs.org/products/nutriscan) [HemoPet]
Dr. Jean Dodds (https://hemopet.org/about-jean/) [HemoPet]
Animal Apologists Podcast (https://open.spotify.com/show/41ZhuRdgGgTShHprwTjgjo/” target=) [Spotify]
Kayleigh and Dogs (Animal Apologists) (https://www.instagram.com/kayleighanddogs) [Instagram]
PARNTER MENTIONS:
Fixers Collective (https://www.instagram.com/fixers.collective) [Instagram]
Crossroads Vet (https://bellevuecrossroadsvet.com/)
Dog B Good (https://www.dogbgood.com)
Double Down Dog Training (https://www.doubledowndogtraining.com)
The Good Dog Way (https://www.thegooddogway.com)
All the Best Pet Care (https://www.allthebestpetcare.com)
ADOPTABLE DOG MENTIONS:
Luna (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/#action_0=pet&animalID_0=18235757&petIndex_0=0)
Rex (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/#action_0=pet&animalID_0=21875176&petIndex_0=0)Penny (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/#action_0=pet&animalID_0=19063648&petIndex_0=0)
Leo (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/#action_0=pet&animalID_0=17301092&petIndex_0=0)
Freya (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/#action_0=pet&animalID_0=16396002&petIndex_0=0)
Rico (https://doggoneseattle.org/adoptable-dogs/#action_0=pet&animalID_0=21567530&petIndex_0=4=)
Ask us anything via Email to soyouwanttorunadogrescue@gmail.com
Follow us on social media at @dgs.podcast
Don't forget to Like, Share, Comment and Subscribe!
Chapters
00:00 3.5 Dogs Biting Kids
01:45 3.4 Updates: Luna, Sprinkles, Heist
09:01 What we've been up to (it's a lot)
12:34 Aversive Control Seminar at Michael Ellis School
14:28 Fixers Collective 2.0
17:24 Adoption Updates (Thank you Kris)
18:21 Main Topic: Dogs Who Bite Kids
19:30 Screening adult dogs for placement in homes with kids
23:21 Dog in the home and having a baby
24:55 But first: Bite Levels (The Bite Scale)
30:56 Lessons from Mando
37:48 Adding a dog to a family with kids
44:50 Ash's Adopter - Training YAY
49:28 Mango's Adopter - Not Great
55:21 Hindsight is 20-20
01:01:04 Take home message
01:05:49 A 9 to 5 of Crazy Shit
01:06:15 A 'dangerous' husky at Monroe PD who just needs a CGC
01:10:51 Most presumptuous surrender email ever
01:13:45 Freaking giant waste of time keyboard warriors
01:28:56 Questions: Nutriscan by Hemopet
01:32:08 Rico's Nutriscan results
01:38:53 Closing thoughts
01:39:32 Deleted Scenes
Who has been a guest on So You Want to Run a Dog Rescue
Names identified in recent episode analyses. Showing up to five guests.
Gina Cooley
Toni Crane
Biggy
Pebbles
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Apple Podcasts (US)
4.5 / 5
17 ratings
Podcast Authority Score: 56 / 100
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Quality
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YouTube
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Engagement
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