ODD vs. PDA: Understanding Demand-Driven Behaviors and School Supports
Host Aleia Mastroianni welcomes DCSD mental health leaders Dr. Stephanie Crawford-Getz and Dr. Bernadette Pigeon to clarify oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) versus pathological demand avoidance (PDA) and how they may appear at home and school. They define ODD by patterns of irritability/anger, argumentativeness, and vindictiveness, and describe PDA as an autism-associated profile (not a standalone diagnosis) marked by avoidance of demands, driven by anxiety, sometimes even when the child wants the outcome. The discussion stresses these are not “bad kids,” warns punishment can worsen cycles, and explains disorders involve persistent, severe impairment rather than typical misbehavior. They address stigma around labels, emphasize trauma-informed, compassionate responses, and recommend consistent, individualized supports such as IEP/504 accommodations, FBA/BIP processes, neutral private feedback, rapport-building, flexibility for PDA, and proactive parent-school collaboration.
00:00 Welcome and Topic Setup
01:54 Meet the Experts 03:09
Defining ODD 04:22
Understanding PDA 07:25
ODD vs PDA Differences
11:04 What Disorders Mean 1
5:36 Consequences and Self Advocacy
17:51 Why School Is Hard
20:38 School Supports and Accommodations
28:04 Stigma and Labels
34:47 Fighting Bias With Data
36:32 Trauma Informed Approach
39:50 Partnering With Schools
42:04 Ask for an FBA
45:45 Closing Encouragement
Facebook Page for Educator Guides - original source
https://www.facebook.com/groups/443109524542575/user/100083947278806/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/443109524542575/user/100083947278806/)
ODD vs PDA Picture Book Resource
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LZ1fgviujuTCYXui_VT5e2JvFIhEA0IimX73woajduw/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LZ1fgviujuTCYXui_VT5e2JvFIhEA0IimX73woajduw/edit?usp=sharing)
ODD: Classroom Resource Guide
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1DDVQcqnLaFrqwEeGVwdrGcSLYBtoK40huFwwvOppWSo/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1DDVQcqnLaFrqwEeGVwdrGcSLYBtoK40huFwwvOppWSo/edit?usp=sharing)
Co-Regulation Strategies for PDA and Anxiety
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ywjZMDQautc1FQLRJhP_xnXgqv9iBbA24A3y36bhlpI/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ywjZMDQautc1FQLRJhP_xnXgqv9iBbA24A3y36bhlpI/edit?usp=sharing)
19 Oct 2026
Co-Regulation
Show Notes — Co-Regulation
Special Ed IEPs 504s, Oh My! · Conversations with DCSEAC
Host: Meredith, with DCSEAC board members Aleia and Kelly Mayr Guest: Kelli Schow, LCSW
Episode Summary: Meredith, Aleia, and Kelly Mayr sit down with therapist Kelli Schow to unpack co-regulation — what it really means, why it's often misunderstood as "gentle parenting" or boundarylessness, and how parents can regulate their own nervous systems in the moments that matter most. The conversation covers quick 30-second strategies, completing the stress cycle, advocating for regulation spaces in IEPs and 504s, and why repair matters more than perfection.
Resources Mentioned
Books
Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski — discusses the concept of completing the stress cycle through tears, movement, and co-regulation
Apps
Calm app (Daily Calm feature) — meditation app recommended by Aleia's physical therapist for daily 10–12 minute regulation sessions
Therapy Modalities
DBT (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy) — the "opposite action" intervention: doing the opposite of your urge when a recurring behavior isn't working
IFS (Internal Family Systems) — attachment- and nervous-system-focused therapy
EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) — trauma-focused therapy with attachment focus
Play therapy — referenced by Meredith for modeling emotional language with kids
Practitioners & Podcasts Referenced
Dr. Becky Kennedy — podcast and book club referenced by Meredith; concept of "two things can be true"
Kelli Schow, LCSW — guest; completely virtual private practice serving clients throughout Colorado; specialties in perinatal mental health, attachment, IFS, and EMDR; accepts most insurance
Website: www.kellischowLCSW.com (http://www.kellischowLCSW.com)
Organizations
DCSEAC (Douglas County Special Education Advisory Committee)
Website: dcseac.org (http://dcseac.org)
Email: info@dcseac.org (mailto:info@dcseac.org)
Key Takeaways
Co-regulation = regulating yourself so you can share your regulation with your child — it's not about dropping everything; it's about pausing and asking "how do I regulate myself as we move through this?"
Two approaches to nervous system regulation: (a) Remind your body of safety through deep breathing, muscle relaxation; (b) Complete the stress cycle through physical activity — jumping jacks, stairs, shaking it off (like a gazelle after a chase)
Opposite Action (DBT) — when a behavior consistently isn't working, experiment with doing the opposite of your urge
Repair over perfection — secure attachment only requires attunement 30–50% of the time; what matters is coming back and completing the story after you've been dysregulated
Two things can be true — you're doing the best you can even as you work to improve
5 Oct 2026
Stepping Down the Supports-
Special Ed, IEPs, 504s. Oh My! – Conversations with DCSEAC
Hosts: Meredith & Kelly
Episode Summary
Meredith and Kelly have a candid table-talk discussion about one of the most emotionally charged moments in a special education journey: when a child transitions out of Significant Support Needs (SSN) or loses their IEP. Despite often being framed as a "victory," both hosts share that it can feel more like being pushed off a cliff — triggering grief, panic, and uncertainty.
Topics Covered
The emotional reality of losing services — why it's not always a celebration
Meredith's experience: her son repeating kindergarten twice in SSN, then being moved to mild/moderate in first grade despite teacher concerns
How overcrowding and program consolidation can affect placement decisions
The difference between SSN and mild/moderate support, and why the "all or nothing" nature of the system is so difficult for families
Kelly's story: her daughter coming off an IEP in high school after years of services, and the transition to a 504
Why qualifying criteria (e.g., being below the 8th–12th percentile) can still leave a significant gap between a child and their peers
IEP vs. 504: key differences — IEPs modify instruction; 504s provide accommodations
How to think about 504 accommodations thoughtfully (not just defaulting to extended time)
Homework as a major stressor — setting boundaries as a parent
Supporting your child emotionally through transitions, especially in middle and high school
Advocating for your child even after they lose formal protections
Stepping down services gradually rather than going from full support to nothing
Connection vs. compliance: why preserving your relationship with your child matters more than the parent portal
Key Takeaways
Losing an IEP or moving out of SSN is neither inherently good nor bad — it's about whether the right supports are still in place.
Always ask: Who is providing the support minutes? Is there an EA in the general ed classroom? Does the gen ed teacher understand my child?
A 504 requires a diagnosis and is managed by the guidance counselor — you may need to be proactive to get it written quickly at the start of the school year.
The "I" in IEP stands for Individual — advocate for what your specific child needs, not what's typical.
Self-advocacy skills built during IEP years are invaluable, especially in high school and beyond.
There are many paths to success — not all of them look the same academically.
Resources Mentioned
DCSEAC website: dcseac.org (http://dcseac.org)
Email: info@dcseac.org (mailto:info@dcseac.org)
DCSEAC social media
If this episode resonated with you, please like, share, and follow the podcast — and let other parents know about it!
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