Design systems are the systems of tools, processes and practices that we use to create digital products, like websites and applications. But can design systems play a role in perpetuating systemic harm? Can they do anything to mitigate it? In this series, design systems consultant and podcast host Amy Hupe interviews guests about their experiences of design systems, systemic exclusion, and how we can work to design more inclusive experiences.
Design Systems and burnout with Sara Wachter-Boettcher
To round off the series, I’m speaking to coach, speaker and author of Technically Wrong and Design for Real Life, Sara Wachter-Boettcher. Sara and I talk about why those of us working on design systems are so vulnerable to burnout and what we can do to prevent it. We talk about the importance of living your values, advocating for what’s right, and - crucially - knowing when to quit.
Episode links
https://www.activevoicehq.com/ (https://www.activevoicehq.com/)
Sara on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saraboettcher/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/saraboettcher/)
Design for Real Life: https://abookapart.com/products/design-for-real-life.html (https://abookapart.com/products/design-for-real-life.html)
Technically Wrong: https://bookshop.org/p/books/technically-wrong-sexist-apps-biased-algorithms-and-other-threats-of-toxic-tech-sara-wachter-boettcher/11186625?ean=9780393356045&next=t&source=IndieBound&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sarawb.com%2F (https://bookshop.org/p/books/technically-wrong-sexist-apps-biased-algorithms-and-other-threats-of-toxic-tech-sara-wachter-boettcher/11186625?ean=9780393356045&next=t&source=IndieBound&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sarawb.com%2F)
Content Everywhere: https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/content-everywhere/ (https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/content-everywhere/)
30 Oct 2025TRANSCRIPT
Design systems and ADHD with Brad Frost
Is ADHD a barrier to working on design systems, or is it actually a superpower? In this episode, I talk to Brad Frost, creator, web designer, teacher, speaker and writer about his recent experience of being diagnosed with ADHD, and what the past few years have taught him about resilience and self-compassion.
Episode links
https://bradfrost.com/ (https://bradfrost.com/)
Brad’s blog post on ADHD: https://bradfrost.com/blog/post/adhd/ (https://bradfrost.com/blog/post/adhd/)
Brad on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/bradfrost.com (https://bsky.app/profile/bradfrost.com)
Brad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradfrost/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradfrost/)
Design tokens course: https://designtokenscourse.com/ (https://designtokenscourse.com/)
Atomic design certification course: https://atomicdesigncourse.com/ (https://atomicdesigncourse.com/)
Brad’s newsletter: bradfrost.com/newsletter/
Wake up excited podcast: https://wakeupexcited.show/ (https://wakeupexcited.show/)
22 Oct 2025TRANSCRIPT
Design systems and big life events with Amy Hupe (featuring special guest host Luke Murphy)
What role do design systems play in supporting people navigating big life events and transitions? In this special episode, I move into the guest seat to discuss a recent life change I’ve been through, with help from special guest host and friend of the pod, Luke Murphy.
amyhupe.co.uk
Amy on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/amyhupe.bsky.social (https://bsky.app/profile/amyhupe.bsky.social)
15 Oct 2025TRANSCRIPT
Design systems and gender with Lou Downe
How do design systems fit into wider social and political systems when it comes to gender, and the inclusion (or exclusion) of trans people? How do they perpetuate exclusion, and what can those of us working on design systems do to mitigate it?
I talk to Lou Downe, author of the best-selling book, Good Services, about their experience of trans-exclusion, and using service and systems design to advocate for equity.
Episode links
https://good.services/ (https://good.services/)
Lou on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lou-downe-757a83b/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lou-downe-757a83b/)
8 Oct 2025
Design systems and accessibility with Léonie Watson
How can design systems help us to create more accessible user experiences? How can we win hearts and minds in the fight to create more equitable experiences for disabled people? Will AI help or hinder us in the process? In this episode I talk to accessibility specialist Léonie Watson, Founder and Director of Tetralogical, Chair of the W3C Board of Directors, and co-Chair of the W3C Web Applications Working Group.
Léonie shares her experience as a blind person, including how technology has created both barriers and opportunities.
Episode links
https://tink.uk/ (https://tink.uk/)
Tetralogical blog: http://tetralogical.com/blog (http://tetralogical.com/blog)
Léonie’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lwatson/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lwatson/)
Léonie on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/tink.uk (https://bsky.app/profile/tink.uk)
1 Oct 2025
Design systems and activism with Geri Reid
What does effective activism look like when it comes to design systems and inclusion? Why are so many of us missing the mark when making the case for prioritising accessibility, and what can we do about it? I talk to Geri Reid, accessibility specialist, to get her tricks of the trade.
Episode links
https://gerireid.com/ (https://gerireid.com/)
Geri’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerireid/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerireid/)
Geri on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/gerireid.com (https://bsky.app/profile/gerireid.com)
20 Jun 2023
Applying systems thinking to our design with Sheryl Cababa
To round off the series, I’m speaking to Sheryl Cababa, Chief Design Officer at Substantial, lecturer, and author of her, Closing the Loop: Systems thinking for designers.
In the episode, Sheryl and I talk about how our design work fits into the wider societal, economic and political systems around us and she shares tools and frameworks for making the invisible, visible.
Episode Links
Sheryl’s blog on Medium (https://medium.com/@SherylCababa)
Sheryl’s LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherylcababa/)
Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers, by Sheryl Cababa (https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/systems-thinking-for-designers/) (Listeners of Systems of Harm can get 15% off the purchase price with the code: cababa-soh)
13 Jun 2023
Design systems and racism with Imran Afzal
Imran Afzal is a Principal Designer working on the design systems team at Co-op digital. He’s written and spoken prolifically about his work on design systems, and his own experiences of racism and discrimination.
In today’s episode, we explore the ways in which design systems can perpetuate or mitigate racism in our digital products and practices.
Episode Links
https://www.imranafzal.com/ (https://www.imranafzal.com/)
Imran's Twitter (https://twitter.com/avimran)
Imran’s blog on racism (https://www.ithoughtaboutthatalot.com/2022/when-my-son-asked-if-we-belong-here)
UX London (https://ti.to/clearleft/ux-london-2023)
5 Jun 2023
Design systems and accessibility with Fred Warburton
How can design systems help us to create more accessible digital products and services, and what are the limits to that? In this episode I talk to design systems manager, accessibility advocate, and good friend of mine, Fred Warburton.
Fred shares his experience with sight loss, and how that motivated him to learn about digital accessibility, and create meaningful change.
Episode Links
Fred’s Twitter (https://twitter.com/FredWabz)
30 May 2023
Design systems and dyscalculia with Laura Parker
Dyscalculia is a learning difference characterised by a persistent difficulty in understanding numbers. In this episode, Laura and I discuss her experiences with dyscalculia, and how design systems can help to create more inclusive digital products for people like her.
Episode Links
Laura’s blog (https://uxwriting.co.uk)
Laura’s Twitter (https://twitter.com/LauraParkerUX)
Accessible numbers project (https://accessiblenumbers.com/)
Dyscalculia poster (https://accessibility-manual.dwp.gov.uk/tools-and-resources/accessibility-posters)
Dyscalculia network (https://www.dyscalculianetwork.com)
Plain Numbers report (https://plainnumbers.org.uk/why-we-exist)
22 May 2023
Design systems and trans exclusion with Luke Murphy
How do design systems contribute to trans-exclusion in our digital, social and political systems? What can we do to create more trans-exclusive experiences? In this episode, I talk to Luke Murphy, a design advocate and a good friend of mine who identifies as non-binary, to explore this issue.
Episode links
https://www.lurkmoophy.com/ (https://www.lurkmoophy.com/)
Luke’s Twitter (https://twitter.com/lurkmoophy)
Zeroheight blog (https://zeroheight.com/blog/)
10 May 2023
Design systems and cognitive bias with David Dylan Thomas
How does cognitive bias affect the way we design and make digital products, and the way people experience them? To kick off the series, I’m talking to author, speaker and filmmaker David Dylan Thomas, to explore these questions.
Episode links
https://daviddylanthomas.com/ (https://daviddylanthomas.com/)
David’s Twitter (https://twitter.com/movie_pundit)
UX London (https://ti.to/clearleft/ux-london-2023)
Design for Cognitive Bias, by David Dylan Thomas (https://abookapart.com/products/design-for-cognitive-bias)
The Cognitive Bias Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-cognitive-bias-podcast/id1197648130)
Inside a recent episode
Design Systems and burnout with Sara Wachter-Boettcher
Published 6 Nov 2025 · Transcript excerpt
[…] Well chronic workplace stress can come from a lot of different sources and one of the ways that it really manifests that I see constantly my work is from feeling like you don't have control and feeling like you are simultaneously charged with something that you are supposed to accomplish and then you're like awarded from actually accomplishing it. […]
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