Uncertain

About Uncertain

Groundbreaking podcast pioneering pivotal conversations about Spiritual Abuse. Interviews with authors, artists, experts, and story tellers to validate the experience of survivors of Spiritual Abuse, providing practical insights for the recovery journey. Your host is Katherine Spearing, a Certified Trauma Recovery Practitioner with nearly a decade of previous experience working in the evangelical church. This is the affiliate podcast of TearsofEden.org , a nonprofit for community and understanding in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. Find us on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Publisher

Katherine Spearing

Category

health & fitness · religion & spirituality · society & culture

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

8 Dec 2021

Latest episode

30 Jul 2024

Latest episodes

57 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   30 Jul 2024

   S5: E16 - The Board Interviews Katherine: Celebrating Five Seasons and 110 Episodes

   The Final Episode of Season Five (and the final episode of Uncertain) is a very special episode. The Board of Directors (https://www.tearsofeden.org/team)of Tears of Eden interviews Katherine Spearing (https://www.katherinespearing.com/), reflecting on the journey of creating five seasons and 110 episodes. They'll discuss: What Katherine is most proud of during the past five seasons How Katherine has navigated carrying stories of abuse and trauma while also being a survivor What it's like working with a team and building community after experiencing abuse within a community What it's like to pioneer bringing pivotal conversations into the public eye How being a woman has impacted Katherine's approach and experience calling out abuse And More! Featuring Erin Pickersgill, Nikki G. and Brad Klausman Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners (https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners) Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s (https://www.katherinespearing.com/spiritual-abuse-book) upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about (https://www.tearsofeden.org/about) Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden (https://www.tearsofeden.org/), a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support (https://www.tearsofeden.org/support) To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com (mailto:tearsofeden.org@gmail.com) Follow on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/uncertainpodcast/) @uncertainpodcast Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain. So today's episode is a special one. It's a little bit happy and celebratory, and it's also a little bit sad. This episode is for the foreseeable future the last episode of Uncertain. It is the end of an era, the end of a journey, and also the beginning of one, I hope. Is the fifth season. We're ending the fifth season. There are five seasons of Uncertain. There's also over a hundred episodes. That's a really big deal. I was planning to sort of end the season with the episode from last week with Janai Amon talking about the How to prepare for telling your story publicly in a safe way. I was really excited about that episode. I was prepared to end on that episode. And then I met with the board of directors for tears of Eden. Yes, we have a [00:01:00] board of directors. We are a nonprofit. All non profits have a board of directors, and I was really thrilled that they suggested, hey, why don't we do like a final celebratory episode in which we, the board, interview you, Katherine, about the journey we're on. with Uncertain. And I honestly was so in the zone of like, okay, I need to finish the season. I need to wrap it up. I need to get everything out. I need to do the promo and I need to do the recording and I need to do the editing and just kind of full on just work task mode. And so the fact that the board suggested, hey, let's do an episode to sort of commemorate and celebrate. That was really helpful. I really appreciated it. It meant so much to me and this episode meant a lot to me as well. This whole journey has meant so much to me. I'm going to talk more about it in the episode itself during the interview. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, the Tears of Eden newsletter, so that you can stay [00:02:00] updated on everything that is continuing to happen with Tears of Eden, including but not limited to a book about spiritual abuse that I am currently writing and will be releasing next year 2025. Thank you all so much for listening. Uh, so before I start crying, I will turn it over to the board of directors of Tears of Eden. Here is the final episode where the board of directors interviews Katherine Spearing Erin: Will you like edit things? Oh, definitely. I'll definitely Katherine: edit it. Yeah. And I'll probably just kind of speak, speak openly, and then decide later if I care. you're gonna edit Erin: yourself. I'm definitely Katherine: going to edit myself. I probably edit myself more than I edit guests, honestly, because they're going to be going to be real about that. I was like, why do I say like so much? I say like so much. Erin: You like it. You like it. I like to say like, [00:03:00] exactly. Katherine: So can we have everybody introduce yourselves? Your name, where you're located, your pronouns, and what how you found Tears of Eden, and then what made you want to be on the board of directors aside from me coercing you into it? Brad: Nicky threatening my life. Erin: That'll do it. Nicole: That's because Catherine threatened my life, so I just was passing down the baton. Hey, Erin: I didn't get threatened. I feel left out. Brad: Well, don't worry. That means you saved on therapy bills. It's okay. And Katherine: we are not a cult. Nicole: No. No. We've had enough of those. Katherine: Nikki, why Nicole: don't you go first? Okay. I am Nikki G, and certified trauma recovery coach, and I specialize in religious trauma, cult recovery, and narc abuse, and I hail from the state of Texas. And [00:04:00] how did I find this safe space that I found that I'm in right now? Well, I met Catherine, maybe about 2021, I think and we connected that way, came on our podcast with myself and another coach. And We just hit it off. We found that we had a lot of commonality and our hearts were both centered on, obviously, recovering ourselves, but also helping those who have gone through horrendous forms of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And so, you know, Catherine reached out to me, I think the end of 2021, and said, Hey! There's a board seat. You want to get on the board? No, she didn't say it that easy, but she was just saying, I would love to have you. I think, you know we hit it off well, and I think we have the same vision. And so I came on board. I remember her. I'm not going to do that now, but I remember her explaining to me how tears of Eden, the actual name came to being, and I just fell in love with that. [00:05:00] And she didn't have the strong army. And so I said, yes. And I've been on the board since the beginning of 2022. So that's my story and I'm sticking with it Katherine: and Nikki has been with me through many a trial tears of Eden related. Yeah. And it's gotten me through many things. Very, very grateful, and also runs the support groups or has run the past few support groups that we've done. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful support group, support person, wonderful human being. Erin, you want to go next? Erin: Hi everyone so my name is Erin Pickerskill and I'm the, I'm an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Missouri. And my pronouns are she, her I've been a priest for a few years and as I was training to be a priest, I was in England and had some of my own experiences of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And as I was. Trying to find out if this thing was even real. [00:06:00] Found myself stomping around the British countryside, walking my dogs and listening to Catherine's voice on the Tia's of Eden podcast on certain and like just praying and wishing and hoping that I could find a community that would understand me and validate my experiences and ended up moving to St. Louis after that. And so did Catherine. So I asked Catherine if I could take her out for a coffee. And And thank her for all of the validation and comfort she gave me and probably many others. And then I strong armed her into being my friend and that's how I do friendship. And but it was just so great. And so then Catherine asked me to be part of the board like on a temporary basis and I loved it so much. Yeah, I just love being a part of this. community. Did I answer all your questions? Yeah, maybe that was about last year, Catherine, or about a year and a half ago. So Katherine: I don't remember, but also came on in a torrential season [00:07:00] of personal and tears of Eden nature. I remember when we both cried. I was like, I don't know. It was like, we laughed. Yeah. Erin: It was amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. To me, like you were, it was like meeting my hero. And Katherine: for me, it was just like, Whoa, we both moved here at the same time. Like, I did feel, Erin: you know, this story that I felt so, so scared, you were going to think I was so creepy because I messaged you and I was like, you're moving to St. Louis. So am I, let me get you a coffee. Like that is creepy. So I'm so glad that I'm so glad that you you took the chance and let me get coffee for you. Katherine: One day it was very special. And I'm so grateful that you're on the board. You bring so much life and laughter and fun and we need that desperately. And we ran into each other literally yesterday, yesterday. It was two days ago, one of those days at a coffee shop. [00:08:00] We're both at the same coffee shop. Yes. This Erin: is awesome. Katherine: Yes. I promise. I didn't Nicole: know you were gonna be there. Katherine: I didn't know you were gonna be there. You're like, I'm not being creepy. I swear. I was in your car route. So good. So good. Cannot escape Erin. No. She's always there. Erin: Oh, that's creepy. Brad's face is so scared. He's so scared. On that note. Katherine: Yeah, right. Brad, how about you introduce yourselves? Brad: Well, you know, I didn't know all that about Erin or I may have reconsidered. However I'm here. So my name is Brad. I short, brief history. I'm a former pastor of 20 plus years in the Southern Baptist church. I escaped with, with no hair, but I escaped and became a certified light coach about four years ago helping people that are deconstructing from religious beliefs. Ideology, trauma and whatever they may go through. My pronouns are he, him. I found out about [00:09:00] tears because of Nikki. Nikki and I met through Instagram discovered we had connection. And then she very bluntly threatened me to interview for tears. And right that same day that she threatened me, she sent me an application or something and said, you need to fill this out. And so with that began the process of, of interrogation, background checks floggings, you know, all that. I must say I was incredibly nervous meeting Catherine obviously the brains behind the operation. But I love tears. And the, the mission and the way in which this organization goes about providing resources and meet the needs of those that are, have, are struggling or have been struggling spiritually. And don't know where they're at. And so that's obviously one of my passions being who I am. I am currently pretty [00:10:00] busy because I'm in the midst of my clinical mental health counseling master's degree. I figure I need I need to replace my past master's degree seminary with something more relevant. No effect. No offense, Aaron. So you know, just a little, little me thing. It's, it's more of a me problem. So with that being said, I'm just excited to be here. I'm excited about this next step and tears life. Tears of Eden's life and what. The vision that Catherine has and what she's going to be doing next. So that's a little bit about me. No, just realize that I am the only male here. So, you know, just saying. Oh, he pulled the mail card. It's really hard for Nicole: him. Yeah. Brad: Oh, my privilege is showing. I'm so sorry Katherine: for you. Nicole: We're so glad that you're here. This is all in great spirit. Yes. I do Katherine: remember asking Nikki, like, he is [00:11:00] a white man. Are you sure? Apparently. Totally fair question. . Nicole: Yes. Katherine: No, we love that. I'm very grateful for you. I'm very grateful that you're on the board and grateful that you have been here. You've been through the support group with us too, and you're the champion of re-shares on Instagram, always re-sharing content. Mm-Hmm, super appreciate that. Yeah. So very, very glad that you're here. And I'm Catherine, she, her, and. Host soon to be former host of uncertain podcast. And this is our celebration episode for five seasons, 110 episodes. And. I guess I'll just announce that this is the final episode for now of Uncertain. That is why we were doing this episode, the special celebratory episode, Aaron's [00:12:00] idea. So glad that you had the idea. Cause I was just like, ah, we're just going to, you know, have a last episode and then we're going to be done. And Aaron was like, no, we need to celebrate. Can we, we need to celebrate Erin: you. We need to celebrate you. That's what we are here to celebrate. So all of you listeners, we're not just. Celebrating this podcast today. We are really intentionally reading it and asking Catherine, like returning the table and asking Catherine the questions about her experience over the last five years. Katherine: I really appreciate it. I'll just say that. Really, really appreciate it. Really grateful that you are, you had the idea to celebrate because it needed to happen. There needed to be just like a celebration and a, and a nice little cumulative ending. So I very much appreciate that. So thank you so much for having the idea and are y'all okay. If I just kind of surrender to you and you decide. What's next for the rest of this episode, even though I feel like the episode's already been awesome so far stories [00:13:00] like, man, why did I interview all of you? Erin: I would I would love to Nikki, were you making gestures? Do you want to me to me? You're pointing at me? Wow. Thanks. Okay, thumbs up. I'm gonna I'm gonna so gladly kick us off, Catherine. I'm going to give you a really easy. Easy starting question, and then they're going to get progressively harder, I'm sure. Sweet! I'm ready. Yeah, okay. And listeners, we did not ask Catherine to review or reflect on these questions beforehand, so these are all off the dub. 100 percent improvised. Good luck. Good thing you're good at that. Okay, so listen, I would love to know, What is, as you reflect over the last five years of podcasting podcasting uncertain, what is a highlight of all of your interviews or, or like, what are you most proud of a particular moment? Katherine: Yeah, I was reflecting mostly on that this morning. I like [00:14:00] blocked out an hour and I was like, I want to sit with, like, go through all the episodes. I didn't listen to them, but I just like, Went through and like remembered episodes and took notes on things. And I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is, well, five seasons, 110 episodes, but also that we are exploring this topic that we are really pioneering so many different conversations. And religious trauma is in mainstream culture. We're aware of that as a Western culture, but spiritual abuse is still not a super mainstream conversation. And I think a lot of that just has to do with the culture and, you know, the United States itself identifying as a Christian nation and, and folks more comfortable with the idea that they experienced trauma, but maybe not so comfortable with the idea that so many things that we see as Christianity. As [00:15:00] normal regular everyday Christianity are actually objectively harmful and coercive and controlling and abusive and shaming and that conversation is probably still about five to 10 years out in terms of being mainstream. So we are pioneering. So many conversations and we're, and we've had so many public conversations already that are conversations that are happening. Absolutely. But we made them public. And some of the topics that we have addressed on uncertain are the first time that I am aware of that they have been discussed in public. I was just thinking about one of the episodes with Keanu Hadari about Asking the question was Jesus sexually abused and exploring that subject. Like I've never, we talked about a book. We were referencing a book up until then, like I'd never heard anyone discuss that or bring that into the public light or, or have that discussion of, is that a [00:16:00] possibility? Did that happen? Could that have happened? And so just the fact that we have just pioneered and been forerunners in this conversation, that's probably going to be happening in mainstream culture in like five years or 10 years. All of these subjects that we are covering is that makes me very proud that, that, that has been something that we've been able to do and explore in a public way that has been helpful to people. So that, that makes me really proud. I'm very proud of that. Erin: As you should be. What about over to Brad or Nikki for a question? Brad: So first of all, that was awesome. And you're so right about it not being mainstream yet. Even going through a master's degree in counseling, it's a hard topic, right? Trying to get that relevant. within the education system. So let me ask you this along those lines, and then this is going to be tough for you to answer. Okay. Because it's, it's broad. All right. Give me something or give us the audience, something that you were [00:17:00] dumbfounded to learn about, you know, Katherine: on these Brad: podcasts. Katherine: Everything coming to my mind has to do with sex. So any of the podcasts that we did about sex or purity culture, I feel like I learned something and I realized like how ignorant I was. and then came to the slow realization that I was kept ignorant on purpose, like it wasn't just like, Oh, I just missed that and sex education class. There was no sex education class. There was no discussion about. So many different things. So anytime we had like a sex coach or sex and relationship coach the sex evangelicals, Julia and Jeremiah, Lucy Rowett, Kim Cavill, I would ask questions of them, like in those interviews that like, I always wanted to ask, and I was just like, I need to ask an expert and I'm going to ask you in the context of a podcast interview, having no idea what you are going to say, because I actually don't know the answer to this question. [00:18:00] And so. That is what's coming to mind for me of just like things that I thought about a lot more afterwards and realize the power play in so much of the approach to sex and the withholding of information within the context of church, Nicole: Nikki. Well, I'm going to rewind back a little bit more and kind of shift. So track back five years ago. What's entered Catherine's mind to start on certain podcasts? Bum, Katherine: bum, bum, bum. Yes. This, this origin story is tears of Eden's origin story probably came before the podcast. And in 2019, I was still at an abusive church and. I started researching with the intent of like forming some kind of [00:19:00] more formal community for people who are leaving churches like this, because as I was going through my experience, I was talking to people all over the country, all over the world, and hearing similar stories to mine, so I just realized like, oh, My church is not the only church where this is happening. It is happening in a lot of places. And so kind of seeing this as a potential need and then wanting to find other people that were maybe already doing this and couldn't find a lot, but did find individual like Or one couple that was ran like a retreat center, like a recovery center for people who had left cults. And a lot of the folks who came through their center were from Bible based cults. And so the fact that they were naming that and working with that demographic of people, that was an episode with Bob pardon. That is. And the archived episodes that are accessible for monthly donors. And and I, I think about his [00:20:00] episode a lot too, because I feel like I learned a lot just from him, I think decades of working with this demographic. But I didn't really find. A lot of organizations working with this demographic, but I just had so many interesting conversations with people. And I just wanted a way to bottle up those conversations and share them with other people. And so that's where the idea for Uncertain came from of like, why don't I just like start interviewing people thinking, Oh, this will be easy. I'd had a podcast before. It was called Frank frog hunting and which I documented my dating dating journey. And so I'd done it before I already had a mic. So I kinda, I kinda knew what to do. And so I just started Begging, bribing, coercing, and threatening people to be on the podcast. And let me, let me interview them to talk about it. And there was a long period of time where I debated, like, do I want this podcast to be something that I put on my website and it's like separate from the nonprofit? Do I want to [00:21:00] put them together? Are they the same thing? And I don't remember. What led to the choice of like, let's make this part of the nonprofit. But eventually like that decision was made. I don't remember why. And, and connected it to tears of Eden as a part of tears of Eden. And it became a very pivotal part of tears of Eden for most of tears of Eden's existence. So I'm glad that that decision was made. I made the decision to keep them together. I think I was worried about the conversations being confrontational and potentially You know, inciting, you know, kickback or whatever. And I didn't want that associated with the nonprofit. I was like, Oh, you could like kick back against me, but don't, don't do it to the nonprofit. And I mean, they became sort of integrated anyway. So here we are. I love that question. Nicole: I'll go up to that though. Where did the name Uncertain come from? You might have [00:22:00] said this a long time ago, but for those who came in, like, let's say year three and on where did Uncertain come from? Katherine: Yeah, that came from a conversation at Coffee in Los Angeles pre pandemic. So it was probably in February 2020. I was at Coffee. Thinking about the podcast, I think I maybe recorded one or two episodes at that point, hadn't named it yet. Nothing was public. I was with my friend Alex and and so I was actually very specifically talking about the name and like, I don't know what to name it. Do I name it? Tears of Eden podcast, but tears of Eden doesn't sound tears of it. It doesn't sound like. podcast. And so I, I wasn't really sure. And she was like, well, just tell me like, what do you hope to do with it? And I just, I said, I just want to have conversations. And hold space for us to be uncertain about those conversations and not really have any like agenda and have to have an answer. We can just [00:23:00] talk and we don't have to conclude those conversations and we can just, just be comfortable being uncertain. And she was like, uncertain. That's a good podcast name. And I was like. Oh, it is a good podcast name. And so yes, Alex Scott, wherever you are is the reason that it is named uncertain. Erin: I love that. I, I remember like stomping around listening to those podcasts in the early days and, and loving the name of it so much because yeah, because I felt so uncertain and I felt like all the ground around me was shaking and just to be able to know, to like link into a group and to yourself and to your interviews that, that also was engaging with uncertain topics, you know, it made me feel so less alone. Yeah. Katherine: And that's such a pivotal part of the recovery process, I think too, because when we're coming out of fundamentalism, the, the [00:24:00] main marketing tenant of fundamentalism is. The answers, we have the answers, we will fulfill all of these answers, we will tell you how to think we will tell you what to experience and how to feel. And so the converse of that is being able to sit in ambiguity and uncertainty. And confusion even, and just kind of be able to sit in that and be comfortable with that and not have to have the answers and the onus to have the answers. I think is one of the things that will lead us back into fundamentalist spaces because we're looking to satisfy that, that angst that can sometimes be caused when we don't have an answer. Erin: Yeah. And so the opposite of being uncertain is being a learner or being curious, you know, and that, that, that sort of, you, you allowed us to be inspired to do that with you, which was, which is so awesome. I kind of, in the context of being uncertain and [00:25:00] having an uncertain posture I was wondering what did the medium of podcasting. Or even the doing of the Uncertain Podcast bring out in you in terms of strengths, and gifts, and interests, and passions? Like, what did it sort of highlight for you that you maybe before that hadn't been able to explore or know about yourself? Katherine: I love this question so much. It's like one of those questions. It's like, I didn't know I want somebody to ask me it, but then as soon as they're asking, and I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad someone is asking me this question. Two things come to mind. First is I learn. And I've only discovered this recently. I learned by doing, and I learned by experiencing some watching maybe. But I learned by an experience. And so having the experience of having an interview with someone and being in that conversation with [00:26:00] someone, I learned so much and I feel like I retained so much information in that way. Also, I think when I was in grad school. Every paper that you wrote, you had like a limit of how many personal interviews you could do as, as resources for a paper. And I always maxed out every personal interview. Cause I just really liked talking to people and learning for them. And so. When I got to do the podcast, it was like, Oh, that same part of me, like, I'm, I'm going to learn from having conversations with people more than I'm going to learn from reading their book. Even though I did read the books of the authors that I interviewed, most of them I I, I really learned more and solidified more in having the conversation than I did from actually reading their book. And so that was a better learning experience for me. And now people are like, you're a [00:27:00] like, Oh, you must have read blah, blah, blah. And you must have read blah, blah, blah. And you're like up to date on all of the literature, like not really, but I have talked to so and so on my podcast and we have emailed and we've had conversations through Instagram. But. Maybe you haven't read their book. But don't read, read people's books, buy books, support authors. I will say that if you don't have the money, ask for it from a library because they will order it for you and it will be free. That's my little plug for that. But that was one thing. And then the second thing, this is a little bit interesting. That I wasn't, this was something that surprised me. So when I was growing up in a very fundamentalist patriarchal world, and there were prescribed roles for women and prescribed perspectives of how women were supposed to behave and what a good woman was. I had a lot of people either directly tell me or passively aggressively tell me that I was mean or M E A N and or, or rude or [00:28:00] harsh or abrasive. They didn't cuss, but they probably would have called me bitchy if they did at a lot of people like make those comments about me, either in the family or in the community. And so I had this perspective from myself that I was just this really mean disgruntled bitch. But then when I would listen to interviews. And I would like get to re re listen to it and edit it, edit it. And I could hear myself after the fact. And there were particular times where like I asked a question and my memory of the question was, Oh, that was harsher. That was to redirect or, Oh, I shouldn't have said it that way or whatever. And I would like ruminate on it later. And then I would listen to it back a few weeks later. And I was like, Oh, I'm not. I'm not, I'm not mean, I'm not rude. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not all of these things that people had said about me. And it took like listening back to myself in real time conversation with some [00:29:00] distance to kind of shift that perspective of myself and sort of see some of that was probably just. Put on perceptions of like what women were supposed to be like, and I just didn't fit that ideal. And I knew I didn't fit that ideal, but I didn't know that that had directly impacted my view of myself, thinking of myself as like a mean. And rude person. Which I now know it's like, I don't, nah, that's not true. I have, I have mean moments for sure. Itchy moments for sure. But that's not who I am as like my character. And so had years of that being put on me that I got to undo in real time through podcasting. So that was a surprise. That was a surprise gift. Brad: So. If I can just kind of piggyback on that a little bit because I was going to ask you a similar question when you started going that direction. I don't know if people [00:30:00] completely understand what now follow this, this wacky train of thought. Okay. So you are obviously a female calling out religious stuff. Okay. Which naturally would create angst by people that are conservative. And you're faced with even in all those episodes, you're faced with calling out trauma and and stereotypes and all kinds of stuff that religion has, I guess you could say, impressed upon the minds of many people since they were kids. When it came to podcasting, how did you not only heal, but keep yourself healthy while going through those episodes? Katherine: Well, we first have to say, am I healthy? That's a, yeah. And I think that that's one of, one of many reasons why I think that the podcast is coming to a [00:31:00] close now is. The crux of my health is on the line and like my ability to stay healthy physically I'm having to make some difficult choices just for my own personal health. And there was always, I was always aware there was going to be a time like that it was potentially going to be more than I was able to carry. And so I think. That, that was always just a NAV, a constant navigation throughout the whole experience and dealt with so much imposter syndrome, I think with the podcast of just, I just remember the first season, every episode, every time an episode would launch, I would just. And I can guess and ruminate and all of the things. And I think always, it always came up in, you know, therapy, especially if there was like a particular episode that [00:32:00] really hit home in a specific way. Early on, there were some folks that I interviewed who, there was one particular, I was remembering that never an episode that never went up. So there were several episodes that never went up. But when I was remembering, we were talking about characteristics of a toxic church. And I think this was in season one. And as we're having the conversation in real time, the woman that I'm talking to is like realizing that she is actually in real time in a toxic church as we were doing the interview. And. Before the episode went up, she emailed me and she was like, I don't feel comfortable with it going up just like where I am and I put in my journey and all that kind of stuff. Of course, no problem not going up, but I was still in this like locked into this like I have to get an episode out every week. And, and so I couldn't get an episode out that week. And, and so I couldn't because it was like care for her or. Not get an episode out. I didn't have anything else in the lineup. And [00:33:00] I just remember just feeling like such a failure because I like, couldn't get an episode up. And now I skip episodes all the time. So like going through that experience of like, like, what is the definition of a successful podcast and having to. Define that for myself because it is a frontier terrain. And I was like, Googling some articles this morning about like podcasting and statistics and all this kind of stuff. And like, there's some podcasts of like how to do a podcast. And if you want to be a successful, you must do it this way and blah, blah, blah, as every industry has. And realizing that it is kind of like a create your own journey. You can learn from things that other people have done, but you really have to create your own journey. And I realized pretty quickly that because of the nature of the subject, how heavy it was and how many heavy conversations I needed to listen to my body. And if I was exhausted, if I was, if I was in trauma [00:34:00] mode, like I was, Working through something and the podcast wasn't something that was going to be help helping that that taking a break was necessary and just had to let, let go of the, the standard of, if you, you have it, you must have an episode out every week in order to be successful. And that just became less and less important. As I realized that. I'm also a trauma survivor, and I'm also a spiritual abuse survivor, and this stuff is going to impact me, and just being aware of that, not, not pretending like I'm okay, because sometimes I'm not. Nicole: I can understand where you're coming from with that. It's hard to juggle both, you know, sometimes, but that's another reason why we're here celebrating you, because somehow or another you got through it, and you know, you were able to do this for five years. And for those who may not know, and I don't know if I can spill the beans, [00:35:00] but she Catherine was really a one man show through the whole five years of this podcast, from, you know, obtaining the guests, obtaining the questions and the content, editing all of the episodes that you guys got to hear you know, hearing the feedback sending out newsletters. Catherine was doing a lot and I think I can speak for her and say this came from the heart. This was a heart effort, you know, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the listeners really, really appreciate that, especially leading the support groups. When, when I connect with some of the group members, a lot of them say they found out about, you know, spiritual abuse and really what they went through from listening to the podcast. So the podcast was not only helping people to find a safe space but it was a place, a platform. For people to be educated to really, you know, say, oh, wait a minute. I went through that too. That's what that's called. And so I just want to honor you [00:36:00] for, you know, the sacrifices that you made to make this be a real thing. That's been a lifeline for so many. And since I'm on that. I want to focus on the listeners now because you see the numbers, you see the hits and a lot of people have tapped into Uncertain Podcasts over the past five years. And if you're out there listening, we just want to honor you and thank you for sticking with the podcast and sticking with Tears of Eden and listening to all the episodes. We really appreciate you for that. But what is some being the fact that you have focused on the listeners a lot. It's not just about, Oh, I like this, this guest. Let me grab that person and put them on. It's okay. Where are the listeners now? We covered this in season one. Now we're going to cover this in season two. You've been very Intentive as far as how you want it to lay this stuff out. What are some of the messages or some of the themes that you really hoped in your heart? Dr. [00:37:00] Listeners would, would gain from hearing the episodes. What is it that you wanted them to really know and glean from the podcast? Katherine: Yeah, and I'm really glad that you highlighted that because I think that that is important. Concept to maintain when you're creating any kind of content is who is your audience? And I had to keep in mind, and I did every time I did an interview, Like survivors. And sometimes I would be thinking of specific survivors. I had had conversations with and questions that we had asked each other and would take those questions. Sometimes I would send out emails to like, if I knew someone really liked a certain author and they had maybe written a blog post about the author, I would like send them a DM. And I was like, . And so I would like send them direct message or an email and just be like, Hey, send me some questions. I'm going to email interview them tomorrow. And so like kind of keeping that person. In mind [00:38:00] as these conversations are happening every time, every, yeah, just like even how the questions are formed. And I think that the, yeah, just the reality that there are some conversations that we've had on the podcast that I really haven't seen anywhere before publicly. We did a, a podcast with Laura Anderson on anger, and I think I've seen a few things on anger and the health of anger in other places, usually in the psychology world, not necessarily in the, in the Jesus world. So but just having that conversation also with Laura Anderson, we talked about second wave fundamentalism, the idea of like, we leave these fundamentalist spaces and then we go recreate deconstruction spaces. Using the same principles that we learned in the fundamentalist spaces. No one's talking about that, like, right now. Like, we're having these conversations that are just, like, before, before it's [00:39:00] time, you know, coming, coming up We had an episode on forgiveness. That was one episode that I was really excited about the episode that we just aired last week that before we did this episode was going to be the last episode with Jani Amon about what if I get sued, protecting yourself when telling your story? There's not information about that out there. I'm not finding it like I've looked at at a lot of, a lot of it is just like having so many conversations with people and kind of piecing it all together. I don't remember the question, Nikki, I apologize. Where am I going? Nicole: No, no, I think you're answering it. Just, you know, what are some of the themes that, you know, you really wanted the listeners to grab hold of and you just said anger and you know what to do with that and forgiveness, which is what I call the F word when you start talking to a spiritual abuse survivor. So yeah, I don't know if there's any more that you can think. Katherine: Yeah. And I'm also thinking of just like the, the numbers if we're looking at [00:40:00] statistics of like what, what episodes were most listened to people wanted pragmatic, practical advice. Those were the episodes that people will listen to the topic based on the topic for something very practical and pragmatic celebrities. Most of our listeners did not care. Like I would have on like some big name person and think that it was going to get, You know, thousands of listeners and it got like a hundred and it was like, they don't care if the person is popular, like they were, our listeners were looking for practical application and practical advice for this season. And that, you know, definitely helped tailor The content of like, this is what, what people want and what they need and what they're looking for. Yeah, so that was really, really special to kind of have that connection to our audience of like, what this audience is looking for. And then also know, like, I am a part of that audience and [00:41:00] like, Oh, Kind of pulling from what do I want to know more about and who are people that I really want to have a conversation with. I'm thinking about Makoto Fujimora. And we just talked about healing trauma through creating art. That's also an archive episode available to monthly subscribers, but that conversation was so cool. And yeah, I was just like, I emailed Makoto, like, Probably like four times. And then finally he like responded to me. I was in line to get COVID tested and I like on my phone, got the email that he was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't check this email very often. And I was like, he's going to be on my podcast. And so, yeah, so there was just a lot of conversations that were just kind of came out of like, what did I want to talk about and what was important to me to learn about too, as well. Erin: I just love how orderly we're doing this. There's like, on my screen, it's like Brad and then Nikki and then it's like so ordered. It's [00:42:00] so proud of us. Katherine: This organization is spot on. I'm very impressed. Erin: We did a lot. It's like we planned it, but we didn't. Exactly. Okay. I love that we're talking about actual podcasting. Cause when I was thinking about this, this interview with you, I was thinking about how important the actual Thing of like, the, the means of podcasting is and how you engaged with it and how it was somewhere different 5 years ago, really in the world podcasting as it is now. And my question for you about that, I kind of see you as someone who is in terms of ending uncertain for right now. The baton on. Oh, I love that. To someone or lots of people. Yeah. I don't know who they're, but you're doing that. I feel that too. Yes. I feel like you're making space and you're saying you know what you're doing. Like the responsible, beautiful thing of saying, I think. My time here now is [00:43:00] done, but someone else will come and take it on. So in light of that, in the hope of that happening, cause we would love for people, right. Like, yeah. Continue to engage with this stuff in this way. My question is what wisdom do you have for folks who are going to take the baton and engage in the intersection of, between spiritual abuse and podcasting? Katherine: Yeah. I think a lot of people feel pressure to start a podcast because it's just something that everyone's doing. And it's kind of like, if you have an organization or you have a business, like start a podcast and it's kind of something that people. I think maybe feel like they need to do. And, and so my first thing would be like, do it if it's something you really want to do and like, you're really excited about it. And like, for me, the, the excitement was having these conversations and getting able, being [00:44:00] able to bring them to people. And, and that was the foundation of the excitement for doing this. And so find out whatever your reason is for doing it and let that be. Your passion for doing it, but don't just do a podcast just because everyone else is doing it. Cause the market is saturated, not saturated with this subject. The subject is not a saturated subject. But yeah, do something that is exciting to you and you might have to discover that. As you're podcasting. And I think that that happened for me of like, I figuring out what type of guests I did like talking to and figuring out which ones I didn't like talking to and just kind of figuring out like, what did listeners, what were they enjoying and what were they maybe not super excited about? And so like, it's just like anything. Let your passion drive you and , and then be willing to kind of learn along the way. And yeah, those are some of [00:45:00] the, some of the thoughts that I had. Erin: No, that's brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for passing Katherine: it on. I like that pass the baton. I do really feel that way. I like, I feel like it is time for other people to join this conversation and carry this, this conversation through this. mechanism. Yes. It's time for other people to step into this. I do definitely feel that a little bit. Erin: Okay. So follow up question really quick in your imagination and in your knowledge of the field, who, who are they? I really Katherine: hope it's a woman. Erin: Sorry. Yeah. Katherine: Or a, or a minority person that had that lived experience. There's already a lot of white men doing this and, and I'm, I'm sorry, Brad, I'm just tired of hearing from white men. I get it. So is he, so tired of it. I am tired of this too. [00:46:00] Yeah. I just, I just feel like as I, I mean, I kind of went on a fast from. White men in terms of like, I'm not reading books by them. I'm not listening to their podcasts just to kind of, cause I just realized that I was still being drawn to the white male as a voice of authority and trust. And so I felt like I just needed to sort of detox and, and then just realizing that members of the BIPOC community members of the LGBTQ plus community, women. Are doing amazing work. Like, it's not like we're like missing something, with the absence of the white man, that we are, we're not missing anything. If we don't have the white male voice. Right now we just aren't so and so I just really hope that the folks who feel that and I think that as someone who like, that's probably my main source of trauma from the church of having gifts that were praised in men, but [00:47:00] because I was a woman, they were sidelined and silenced and shut down. And then saying, fuck you, literally. And creating a podcast where I sermoned and taught and did all the things that I wasn't allowed to do in the context of church and faced all of the imposter syndrome and all of the, all of the voices telling me that I shouldn't be doing this, that I was doing something wrong by doing this, that I wasn't qualified, that I didn't know what I was talking about. And, and recognizing that there are a lot of people out there that feel that way and maybe aren't talking. Because of that, because of that oppression and because of being shut down and silenced. And I want to hear from you. So get your mic and start podcasting. Brad: First of all, I totally agree with everything you said. Totally. Thanks, Brad. I don't even listen to white men. I don't even listen to myself half the time. But anyway right because I want to hear from [00:48:00] minorities. as well. And then they do an outstanding job on every podcast I've listened to, whatever have you, if it's not a white male, I actually enjoy it more. So that being the case and, and, and Aaron, that was a great question. And, and handing off the baton, knowing what you being considered for all my books, I'm reading school, a minority, Being female, right? What would you say to someone that's thinking about picking up the baton and going with it, that is not a white male, but has trauma from this? I mean, what, what would you like? You had mentioned about, Hey, people really like to listen to the practical application. Would you say to them to encourage them or to support them? I hate the word encouraged because it's flashbacks. Bible Katherine: hood. Brad: So what would you say to support them? [00:49:00] And, and, and picking up that endeavor. Katherine: What's coming to mind is just how deeply embedded fundamentalism was still in my body once I left. And it just took a lot of time and a lot of just like aha moments. A lot of times. In the context of a podcast interview. And so just enjoying that journey and I'm grateful that the podcast itself was called uncertain. And I said that word every time there was an episode, because I think it was just kind of like a subconscious reminder of like, just because you don't wrap up the episode with a neat little bow. To tell someone how to do X, Y, Z what's important is that the conversation happened. And you don't have to set yourself up as an expert in a subject to ask questions about it. I [00:50:00] like that. That's cool. I like that. You don't have to set yourself up as an expert in order to ask questions about it. Brad: That's awesome. Katherine: I like that. Brad: Yeah. Katherine: That's what I have to say. Nicole: Okay. Time to get a little vulnerable. I think I know the answer to this question, but I Katherine: feel Nicole: very Katherine: by you, Nicky, your voice is, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being here Nicole: since we're on the topic of, you know, the, the time being passed and you know, more conversations around this topic, I just want to bring some reality to it. Because yes, it's helpful. It's informative. It's supportive to the community, but it's not easy. You know, like I said earlier, you've done a lot of this on your own and I'm pretty sure there's been some bumps in the road. So real vulnerable question within the five year span of doing this, [00:51:00] were there any moments when you felt like giving up and just saying, you know what, I can't do this anymore. And if so, how did you overcome it? Katherine: Yes, definitely. . I think there was a, there was a time a couple of years ago, Nikki were very much a part of that season. That was really, really challenging in. The life of the nonprofit and it really impacted me physically had a genuine trauma response. I think that was the season I both met Aaron and Brad in that season. So I was definitely like at the bottom of the bottom. And I took a month off from the Podcasts from the nonprofit just didn't check email. Didn't do the Instagram, didn't interview. And I really just sat with like this and like asked myself the question I asked my body, [00:52:00] cause I was, it was a physical impact on my body and I just sat with. Like just asking my body, like you have done enough. You survived abuse as a child. You survived abuse as a teenager. You survived abuse as an adult. You've experienced so much abuse. You have gotten me through so much. Like you are in charge. Are you ready to be done? Is this the end for you? Are you, are you done? And just like really wanted, and I was really, really willing to just say, if my body is speaking to me and telling me we're done. Like be willing to, to to end the whole thing and didn't at the time feel like it was time to close up shop. Didn't feel like it was over. Didn't feel like the journey was over yet. But I definitely came out of that. Very intentionally. I just started like writing down my hours for tears of Eden. And even though I knew I had worked so [00:53:00] much for tears of Eden, I hadn't ever written it down, so I didn't know how much and realized I had worked way more than I thought I did. For Tears of Eden. And so when I'm like getting to Wednesday and I've already done 17 hours for Tears of Eden and I also have a full time job and I'm also in school and I'm also doing other creative projects, I, I was like, okay, that's enough. Like that is enough for this this work and, and having to be just really intentional about caring for myself. And I think that that's something that every nonprofit leader has to navigate of like, you do so much pouring out to help other people and finding the line of like. Where are you losing yourself in that process? And I definitely think the physical impact of that challenging season showed me that I had. Like kind of [00:54:00] fragmented a little bit and, and needed to spend some more time just integrating and, and approaching, approaching myself with the same care that I maybe approached other people with and not something that is easy to do at all and it, and it isn't. And I think that's some of the reasons for the ending of the podcast here is just Again, being in a season where my body has experienced a physical impact and wanting to care for my body and also recognizing it's for the health of the nonprofit too, because if the leader of the nonprofit is exhausted and burnout, that's not healthy for the nonprofit either. And so it's, they go together. So that is yes. So how did you keep going? Well, I kind of did it, it kind of led to some overhauling of the system. And I think when you reach that [00:55:00] point of, do I want to keep doing this or am I ready to be done, that's a beautiful moment of just. Restock reassess. And I am not a fan of anyone doing something they don't want to do. And like, if you were for whatever reason you don't want to, I'm not a fan of pushing through that. There are times sure that we do have to do that, but it's a lot less than I think that we have been conditioned to believe, especially in religiosity. And I think that. The pushing, if we feel like we're pushing through and just making it happen, that we're not really in it. Just take a beat, take a beat five minutes, 10 minutes, five days, 50 days. Whatever you need to just kind of restock. Nicole: That's that is so good. Catherine. And it's real, you being transparent not just being podcast and running the non profit, but I just [00:56:00] think for survivors religious trauma survivors, spiritual abuse survivors and this, this is, this is gonna make sense with all this, but sometimes we come out of what we've come out of, and You know, we look for justice, right? You know, we were either sexually abused or physically abused and manipulated in these spaces and we want justice. And as I always say, we can't go march down to the local precinct and say, Hey, Pastor so and so did so and so, you know? So there is this this desire, this voice that is not witness, this grief that is not witness of what just occurred. And sometimes if we haven't stopped to process and work through that, we can easily go into the activism side. Of, you know, this is wrong, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but before you know it, we're in the activism side, then maybe the advocate side, and, you know, now we have a podcast, now we have a Instagram account, [00:57:00] now we're on TikTok, and we're saying all the things, not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but taking needed breaks to say, okay, why am I doing this, right, and is this harming me physically, is this harming me mentally and psychologically, to hold all of this, And then go out and be a voice. Sometimes being a voice and having a greater reach is by resting, is by taking a break, is by getting the therapy, working through a lot of that first. And then if something opens up, then go for it. You know, but I, I sell that to say, you know, how you handled the podcast in the past five years is an example of that. You asked your body important questions. You included your body and say, Hey. What's up, because we've been through a lot together. What say you and your body and the rest of your faculties were like, you know what, this isn't the time right now, you know, I will work with you. [00:58:00] So you can continue to do the work. But now you're saying their body is saying, It's time to lay this down. And so I commend you for that because sometimes this work, it can seem so enormous. It's like, but I got to be a voice and people are depending on me and who else is going to talk about spiritual abuse this way. And I've got all these topics that have yet to be talked about. So I have to keep going. I'm, I'm putting this out to the listeners, some of you out there since the five years you've been there from the beginning to the end and you've been inspired by the guest, you've been inspired by Catherine and you're like, I'm rolling up my sleeves and I'm going to do the thing too. Not saying don't, but sit with your body. I'm pretty sure your body has been through a lot, listeners, with the, what you've been through and spiritual abuse and see if it's the time, if it's the vehicle. Is this, you know, the format. You know, really consider that. And don't leave your [00:59:00] body behind. Nobody's left behind. Can I say that? Don't leave your body behind, don, your body behind the work. Katherine: That's the title of this Nicole: episode. That's I didn't wanna get. Don't leave your body behind because your body is an integral part of the healing. You know, it's not just our soul, it's not just our spirit, but the trauma is in our bodies and it has a voice and wants to speak to. So I say that to say, Catherine, thank you for listening to your body. Of course, we will miss you on the podcast streets, but we have five seasons to go and rewind and listen to. And we are grateful for you and what you're doing for yourself and for the nonprofit. Katherine: Thank you, Nikki. I appreciate it. And I do think that the like that, the episodes, like, they're not, I don't think that they're time sensitive episodes. I think like those resources are still accessible and they'll still be on the podcast, still be on the [01:00:00] website. And now they'll still be on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And so they're not. Episodes, I don't feel like most of them are episodes where they're like, Oh, they're only relevant for this certain season. I think that a lot of these, these are like active resources that are going to be continue to be available. And I feel very good about. What resources we've created through this podcast. And I'm very happy that they will still be there. So it's like, we're ending the podcast, but this, this creation still exists. I appreciate that. Thank you, Erin: In the light of what Nikki was talking about in terms of you grounding in your body and really knowing yourself and being able to. like bend to the decision your body is making at different points. I am making a huge assumption in this question that you have loved working with the three of us.[01:01:00] That it has been a joy for you. And I'm saying that because it's been a joy for me. And so as I've been And it's like a true joy, you know, like when joy is real joy and you know that because it becomes a source of healing so my question, it's true. And so my question is about like what's, how do you reflect on, you know, Working alone versus working in a team, what does it mean for you to have a team? What do you yeah, just like, how do you reflect? I, I, I guess I asked that because I see a lot of folks coming from places of great hurt in community and religious communities and wanting to take it alone and wanting to go solo and wanting to be Mavericks. And I. Validate that, you know, that needs to [01:02:00] happen for safety. How do you reflect though on finding people who you can work with who are safe and how do you do that? You do that discerning and how do you do that work? Katherine: Yeah. Whew. There's a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, and I think of like, yeah, like, and I think of like the idea of like wanting to do it alone and needing to do it alone and like, yeah, that is a season that some people needed to go through. I think it's really scary. And I think that some of the earlier renditions of tears of Eden, the team wasn't great. And the early people that were involved, I'm not all of them, but a lot of the earlier people. And I think. Some of that was just like where I was, I was so just out of fundamentalism. And so I picked people who were still in fundamentalism. And so some of those same toxic you know, relational dynamics [01:03:00] still existed within that context of just like passive aggressiveness and, you know, pretending that everything was fine, but you know, it's not. And, and some of that stuff. And so I think that was some of the. What led to the, do I want to keep doing this? And, and having a good team is so important for enjoying the experience. Oh my gosh, it's so important. But we don't always have the resources to have a good team, to build a good team, to choose a good team. And, and Some of that is not our fault, like we've been infused with really toxic ways of interacting with people. And, and so, and sometimes we just don't feel safe in community. I know that that was hard for me when I started taking like classes, improv classes. And, and being a part of a class and seeing the same people every week, it felt a little bit like going to church. And I was, I [01:04:00] had a lot of just like anxiety about just being a part of a group that I saw consistently. And it's sometimes easier to not have that and just have like some one off relationships and kind of go solo because a group and a community and a team could feel really activating. And that's not bad. And it's also not our fault if we feel that way. And it actually probably means that we were hurt in the context of the community and that's a real thing. So not an answer to the question, I don't think, but just some thoughts. No, it was the answer because I just Erin: asked you to reflect and you did. And so, yeah, thank you so much. I won. Yeah, you definitely won. Brad: This isn't so much a question. It's just a observation of how you answered Nikki's question. By the way, I've been absolutely dumbfounded by the awesome questions of the [01:05:00] board. I think you ladies have done amazing with your questions. Think that your self awareness is head and shoulders above many people I, I meet. And the reason I say that is within organized religion, people in leadership are taught to the plow through to continue on to push through to it's all for Jesus, right? I mean, like, leave it here because you get the party later or worship later. I mean, like, you know, it's it's a focus on the afterlife more than it is on being healthy here. I would, I would argue you being able to. Look and step back and say, no, I'm not going to follow that pattern. I think is something a lot of people miss within themselves, because when they leave organized religion, they adhere to those patterns. They just switch it into a different avenue. [01:06:00] Right. But you go, no, I'm going to make sure that pattern never becomes a part of my life. Nicole: And Brad: so I just wanted to commend you on your self awareness and recognizing that and something that we all can learn because I've seen people on Instagram that they are trying to heal, but they go from one extreme and religion to fighting and doing the same thing. That they were doing religion against religion, the same methods and everything, and they never heal, but you show healing. And so I just appreciate that. And I appreciate that vulnerability, that display of wisdom. Katherine: That means so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Nicole: , Brad, you brought up some great points and, you know, I think we can all look at that and, and look at, like I said, Catherine's example of, Hey, you know, I want to take care of me in the midst of [01:07:00] trying to help others. I don't want to lose myself. As I'm helping others, you know I heard someone often say there's enough trauma in the world for everybody to have a place to, to try to help and work and see people recover, but not at the expense of us, you know, losing ourselves. So as we're, as we're winding down. I think, you know, speaking on behalf of the board and the listeners like I said earlier, we're just honored for your sacrifice over these past five years. You know, even the times you had to stay up late or you lost some sleep or, you know, like the times you were ready to give up. We're grateful that you didn't in the five years. And even now, we don't look at this as a giving up. This is a necessary ending, both for you physically, mentally, emotionally. and professionally. You know, thank you for what you have done to help so many, so many survivors out there and podcast world. If there was one last message that you could [01:08:00] give the listeners the guests that may still be listening, even though they were guests at one point, what would you say? What would you leave? And this last episode to, to the listeners out there. Katherine: And it's okay to cry Yeah. I think I think, I mean maybe I'll just talk to myself of just like , just like, just hang out here. Like, just stay present. Enjoy this moment. We didn't talk about the future. And I think that that's good. Like we don't have to, we don't have to end this, but don't worry. We have all of these wonderful things coming. Like we can, we can just be in this place. So, you know, saying goodbye, ending a season, celebrating. Being together, being present, reflecting, and that's enough. We don't have to come up with a grand vision and plan for [01:09:00] right now. That's that's at the board meeting in August, for now we could just be present and I think for anyone who is listening, whether you're joining us, just For the first time, maybe, or you have been an active listener or you are a friend that I have texted this episode too, because I want you to listen to it. That it's, if there's some sadness associated with this, there's some sadness for me. Absolutely. Like judge, we can just kind of hang out with that and hang out with those emotions and that feeling, and we don't have to do anything with it. You can just be. That's what I'm feeling right now. Nicole: Okay. Well, we love that. Just being, it might be foreign to us coming out of the spaces we've come out of, you know, Brad, I love Aaron's face. I wish I Katherine: could capture that in audio. I didn't Nicole: see it. I didn't see Erin: it. It's so good. That was so good. No, [01:10:00] Nicole: I'm, you know, like Brad just said, we're always in the futuristic, you know, it's very hard for us to be in the present, but I like what you're saying, Catherine, you know, just be. And, you know, even though Catherine didn't go into what we, what we're doing next. I will, I personally encourage the listeners, if you've not joined to be a monthly subscriber and you know, you came in listening to the podcast season three, season four, or maybe even season five maybe you can go back and, and, and, you know, become a subscriber to support tears of Eden. We're doing a lot of shifting because we want tears of Eden to be here for the long haul. But there are a lot of great episodes back in the archive episodes that like, you know, Catherine said they're timeless. So wherever you are in your journey, I'm pretty sure you can glean from a lot of stuff that was poured out in those podcasts. So think about it, think about becoming a monthly subscriber. It will support the work, but it will also [01:11:00] support you at the same time. Brad, Aaron, anything you want to leave the listeners with. As we get ready to close out. Brad: Well, white man has talked enough. Katherine: That's another good title for the episode. Nicole: That's it. Done. Done. Erin: I never have talked enough. I have one more thing to say. The, the word that comes to my mind listening to you all today is gift. Keep thinking about you being a gift to this space and the, what wider world of spiritual abuse and, and religious trauma, Katherine. And what I also hear you say is that doing the podcast has been a gift to you. There's been something at moments where you've been able to use it for your own sense of growth and awareness. And that's been a gift, which is awesome. And so, yeah, just to reiterate what Nikki has invited all of you to do I ask that if Years of Eden has been a gift to you, or Uncertain has been a gift to you, that you would [01:12:00] give back and consider being a monthly donor, because this work is going to continue on and on. And sadly, we have a lot more work to do. There are a lot more people who need help. To feel what we've all felt, which is the sense of risk, frustration, community, and and that there's life after racial abuse and religious trauma. Katherine: I love y'all and apply to be on the board. You get to be a part of this. There's a, there's a way to apply on the website. Just go to tearsofeden. org slash team. Thank you for wanting to have a moment to celebrate. And having that idea and being willing to make this time, it's very meaningful to me to have this really amazing job. Brad: Thank you, Catherine, for everything you've done. Yeah, Nicole: this was great. Brad, you are hilarious. I'm coming up to New York and we're going to go grab a drink or something because you couldn't make this crack up. Come on up and we'll go Brad: out on the town. We will burn it Katherine: down. That's right. [01:13:00] Board Brad: retreat in New York City. Here we go. Yes, please. Katherine: Do you live in New York City, right Brad? Brad: Just outside of it. Just outside of Brooklyn and Queens. Katherine: All right. We need to Do we need to do a retreat to Yes, please. To New York. Nicole: Oh, we'll. We'll, we will eat like kings and queens. Be Erin: amazing. Nicole: Yes. I love Erin: food. Nicole: Oh, it's so good. Brad: That's, see, I knew Erin. I loved you for a reason there. It's See Erin: the food. We both love it. Brad: There we Erin: go. Like a good food plate. I love food too. Nicole: Especially all the, all the fasting I did in those colds. I'm like, give me food. I don't want to hear about fasting right now. Unless it's for medical reasons. New York City is the place to be for food. That's right. That's right. Oh, I can't wait. We'll hit the town. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. Are you Erin: guys joking or not? Because I really [01:14:00] wanna do this. I listen, I wanna Nicole: do this. Listen, I'm gonna do this too. Erin: Let's do Katherine: New York in the fall. The fall is great. Oh, it's so Brad: beautiful. . Erin: Yeah, let's go to New York City in the fall. How about Katherine: Easter next year? Just kidding. Erin: Yeah, that sounds better. Sorry, Bishop. Brad: You go back to him and you say, Hey, listen, I got a better Erin: offer. Brad: I can, I can do it. Let's go. Katherine: Sounds like so much fun. Nicole: I love it. So Catherine, how do you, how do you feel about how today went? It was great. Katherine: Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for having the idea, Aaron. And thank you all for being here. It was fun. I appreciate it. Needed, needed the time to just kind of sit with things and commemorate. And it was nice to do it with people. Thank you all, everybody. Nicole: You're welcome. Have lovely day. Yes, thank you everybody. Stay safe. Bye. Stay safe. Erin: Lots of [01:15:00] love. Bye bye. Bye bye. For the final time. This podcast is produced, hosted, and edited by me, Catherine Spearing. If you would like to support the ongoing work of Tears of Eden, please visit tears of eden.org/support to give a donation. Thank you to all of our amazing listeners, all the best and signing off for now.

2. 

   23 Jul 2024

   S5:E15 - What if I Get Sued? Protecting Yourself When Telling Your Story Featuring Jenai Auman

   This is one of the most important and practical episodes you will likely ever listen to! As more people speak out publicly, sharing their stories of abuse in the church, more and more churches, denominations, and pastors are growing litigious, further abusing victims in civil court. If you're thinking of going public with your story, LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE! Featuring Jenai Auman (https://www.jenaiauman.com/), author of the recently released book Othered. (https://www.jenaiauman.com/otheredbook) We'll Cover: Question to ask yourself before going public with your story Things to consider before going public Tips to mitigate your risk HOW to prepare IF you get sued What to expect from lawyers And More * Disclaimer: This is NOT legal Advice! * Read this article (https://jenaiauman.substack.com/p/the-question-im-most-asked-when-talking), written by Jenai, that inspired Katherine to ask her to talk about this on the podcast. This is seriously one episode Katherine has REALLY wanted to do. Jenai wrote a companion article with examples of corroboration here. (https://jenaiauman.substack.com/p/providing-documentation) Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer, artist, and author of Othered. She draws from her experience and education to write on healing, hope, and holistic spiritual formation practices. Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners (https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners) Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s (https://www.katherinespearing.com/spiritual-abuse-book) upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about (https://www.tearsofeden.org/about) Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden (https://www.tearsofeden.org/), a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support (https://www.tearsofeden.org/support) To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com (mailto:tearsofeden.org@gmail.com) Follow on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/uncertainpodcast/) @uncertainpodcast Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain. Starting in April of this year, I began partnering with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, working as a practitioner for this organization. This organization's CEO is Dr. Laura Anderson. You may be familiar with her. She's been on the pod a couple of different times. She's also the author of the book, When Religion Hurts You. She's awesome. She's the boss. I work with her and a bunch of other really great practitioners over there. If you are looking for mental health professional, a trained, highly qualified, highly experienced mental health professional that can help you navigate religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and all of the sub categories that fall beneath that. I encourage you to check out Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. I am currently accepting a few new clients, and there are several other practitioners that are also accepting clients. I know that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the religious trauma spiritual abuse [00:01:00] world is folks just really struggling to find a mental health professional that understands religious trauma and spiritual abuse and the nuances and complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism and church culture. So if that is something that you are looking for, I encourage you to check them out. The link will be in the show notes. Also in April of this year, I signed a book deal with Lake Dry Books. My book, Surprise Surprise is about spiritual abuse. It will be coming out in sometime in 2025. Date is yet to be determined, so I encourage you to sign up for Tears of Eden's mailing list for updates on the release of that book. The need that this book is going to fill in the world of religious trauma and spiritual abuse recovery, that is something that I see lacking in the It's the need of making the connection between the theology of evangelicalism that actually leads [00:02:00] to the abuse happening. I'm not seeing that a lot in the literature today. Our guest a couple of weeks ago, Krista Brown, she made that connection in her memoir, Baptist Land. But outside of that, it's not really a common thing that folks are addressing. So I felt like it was a pretty important subject to navigate in my book. It's going to be mostly. Following my journey of recovery, but it's not a memoir and it is also going to be pulling some stuff from the work with Tears of Eden. There are direct quotes from podcasts that you may have listened to So sign up for the mailing list so that you can get updates about that. Today's guest is my friend and colleague Janai Allman, and I am so excited about this episode. This is an episode that I have been wanting to do for a couple years. And a few weeks before Janai had, and I had this episode scheduled to record, she sent out a Substacks article about the very subject [00:03:00] that we're going to be talking about today. We are going to talk about her book that just came out, Othered, and we are going to talk about the book a little bit as well, But Janai graciously agreed to have this conversation with me because we both learned a lot of things about telling our stories publicly and how to stay safe and also make sure we get to say our side of the story and those two things are super important on the other side of abuse. So very excited about this episode. I hope this is one that people will re listen to over and over and over again, and I am so excited to be able to include this as a resource for Tears of Eden and for folks who encounter Tears of Eden. Janai Almon is a Filipina American writer and artist who draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward. She is passionate about providing language to readers so they can find a faith inspiring that freeze. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science, and is currently pursuing a [00:04:00] master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janiyah lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham. Here is my interview with Janiyah Allman Katherine: Hello, Janai. Jenai: Hi. How are you? I'm really good. I'm so glad we're doing this. Katherine: Yes, me too. I'm very excited about this episode and the subject that we are going to talk about today because it is one, as you and I have, talked about prior to the episode is something that is a big discussion within the survivor community for folks who are wanting to go public with their stories and discussing how to protect ourselves from the potential for a civil lawsuit. It is not an uncommon thing and it's becoming more common like I'm, I'm seeing it happen a lot. You just went through experience of writing a book before we [00:05:00] jumped on, you talked about going through a legal review when you were writing your book. So everything that we're sharing today is going to just be to help people have some awareness about this experience of going public with your story and protecting yourself because you want to, you want to protect yourself. As we jump in, I definitely want to highlight your book . So give folks a just rundown of what your book is and why you wanted to write this book. Jenai: Yeah, I, so my book is a faith oriented book, so I know that some people who might listen to Uncertain, they might be in varying degrees of faith, or totally deconverted altogether, I make space for the deconverted, and but also, I wrote this space reorienting, or I wrote the book reorienting, like, how I posture myself to Like the stories in the Bible and I weave in personal narrative. So this is what I experienced. How does that, how is that at all in accord with scripture? How, and it isn't [00:06:00] a lot of what I experienced while working on staff at a church, one of those churches that are often in those podcasts where they talk about the main guy who started the affiliation yelling at people. Like, I think people, I was a part of a very high control, very toxic masculinity church planting network. And I was ostracized and kicked out essentially othered in from my church because I wouldn't, I wouldn't shut up and I wouldn't, I wouldn't stop advocating for myself. And so I wrote othered. To tell my story and to essentially provide a road map to this is why I still am a Christian. I kind of detangled my experience of that space from the harm I experienced. And I have found a renewed relationship in God. However, it doesn't land per like I'm not in a church today. I'm not and some people, they are so mad that I'm not in a church today. Which, that's like a whole other thing. And then other people are going to be mad that Katherine: you still identify as a [00:07:00] Christian. Yeah. Jenai: Yeah. Like I'm not in a church. I still identify as a Christian. I'm in seminary. So that makes it like even kookier for people. And, and so I sit in a weird place where even as I tell my story, sometimes I still feel very othered because I haven't landed where other people wanted me to land. But that's kind of the whole point. Like I want people to feel free to land wherever, even my, like, I don't mention my husband very often, but even my husband has landed somewhere different in faith. And that's like much more toward deconversion. And so I hold space for a lot of different people. So anyway, I wrote other, I share, it's not a memoir. So it doesn't tell even people get mad whenever I say, I don't say everything that happened in the book, and I think we're going to talk about all of that and maybe why I didn't do that. A lot of that is just to protect myself. I think a lot of people want that, though, and they don't understand the risk that goes into telling everything like in a memoir style. I just use [00:08:00] pieces of the story. Like, my story is not up for debate. But I just used these instances, instances and moments to say, here's where something in me fractured and I had to find my way back to myself again. So yeah, I'm really glad to share. Katherine: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you sort of setting things up and just kind of letting folks know like this is where I have landed. Yeah, I had space for other people for where they have landed. I think that's really helpful because I think a lot of folks from evangelicalism will, like, come on and talk about you know, what they believe. And there is this, like, very subtle agenda of, like, I want you to believe the same thing as me which comes straight out of, These toxic evangelical cultures of like, we can't interact with you unless you believe the same thing. And so I really appreciate that. You've set it up that way and that you have written the book that way pertaining to the subject that we're going to [00:09:00] discuss today. What did you, what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put it on all of the other public writing that you have written. You may already know this, but the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening. And now back to the show. Katherine: what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put [00:10:00] it on all of the other public writing that you have written. Jenai: Yeah. Well, it was, I can imagine cause there was a lot of back and forth between me and the leadership of the church of like, what was wrong, what wasn't wrong. And, and I was watching them and this is probably something you, you resonate with also, but like watching them make it make sense in their heads, like take this really. dumb argument that they've made and they've kind of loaded it with a lot of Christian speak to somehow justify like whatever conclusion that they came to. So in short, I was terminated from my position. They never used the word terminated though. They always used transition out. That was kind of a part of the The Christian speak, you know, yes, it made it sound like more polite to them as if what they weren't what they were doing to me was not impolite or like rude or loving. They were like, Oh, we're just transitioning her out. We're just like jet [00:11:00] gently pushing her out and telling her to shut the hell up. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a you're allowed to pass. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: And so Yeah, I was like, you use these grace laced words and so I kind of started fighting back with no, you're not supposed to do this isn't so in many ways the book and the book's not an argument. It's not formatted as an argument. It is essentially kind of how I kept fighting back. And I don't even say this in the book. It's it was my resistance and how my resistance played out over the course of time Using the very scriptures that they were trying to use against me and I was saying no, no, no, no, no Like Katherine: yeah, Jenai: you know I think a big a big banner scripture and it's not in the book at all Ezekiel 34 like you are feeding on the sheep I am a sheep that was in your care and the ways in which I was treated wasn't okay And you're supposed to hear my voice And you didn't just not hear me. You like silenced me. And [00:12:00] so writing the book was pivotal for me because I think many other people are having to deal with that too. That doublespeak, duplicitousness. And they don't know how to combat it. And for whatever reason, maybe it's my stubborn, Filipina nature or maybe it's a little bit of like Texas stubborn in me as well, but I was like you You will not overpower me. You have done everything to like push me out, but I I will Like there was something stubborn in me that was like, I will dig down. Cause I know something in this is not right. And I'm going to keep speaking up. So yeah, I thought it was super pivotal to give people language. And I think some of that says that in my bio, like I want to provide people with language. I don't know what it is. I don't want to tell people what to do, but I want to give them language to say, this is what my resistance looks like, and Katherine: I Jenai: hope and healing, I think healing and resistance are both and and I think this is what you can envision for yourself also. Katherine: Right. I love that healing and resistance are both [00:13:00] and and for whatever reason that someone chooses to go public with their story. Part of that reason could just could be the healing reason like that. That is that feels important to me as a part of my healing. I need this story to be public. It could be just to teach people as you, as you chose to do just to sort of show people. Here are. other ways to interpret these things that these power hoarders are just, you know, funneling at you and there's so many of them and they're so powerful and they're so convincing and they're so nice when they say it, it's really hard to, to fight back even just in our own minds. So there's so many reasons why someone feels that it's important. to go public with their story. And what we're going to talk about today, folks, is how to protect yourself if you decide to go [00:14:00] public with your story. Disclaimer at the very beginning. Neither Janai nor I are legal counsel, we are not lawyers, we have life experience that we are going to share, we are going to give recommendations, but we encourage everyone to do your own research, look into this yourself, know what the risks are because there are risks. When you put your story of being abused in public and make the best wise decision for you and your health and where you are in your story. So with that disclaimer, we're going to kind of talk about two different parts in this episode. One, we're just going to talk about ways that you can safely tell your story that might mitigate your opportunities or the potential risk of being sued by someone. Yeah. That said. Someone can file a civil lawsuit for anything. They don't have to have corroborating evidence or anything. [00:15:00] They can make up a total lie to file a civil lawsuit. All they need is Money, really, that's really the only thing that they need. And so we're never going to be able to completely eliminate the risk for being sued, but there are some things that we have learned on our journeys that can help us navigate and protect ourselves in the event that that actually happens. So that's going to be the part two of this episode. jumping right in. If you have some things that you have learned in your process about ways to phrase things, how to phrase things, things that you learned while writing your book of, okay, I can't say that, but I can say this, would love to hear just a rundown of some stuff that you have learned in your process of telling your story publicly. Jenai: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll say sometimes I share parts of my story on Instagram and no [00:16:00] one's really policing what I say on Instagram. But there was much more kind of like being cautious and careful in a publication, like a book. And so just before I wrote. Or finished the manuscript of Othered. I think it was Prince Harry's memoir. Yeah, his memoir came out. And I, and I was like, I want to read that. And I just read it before even finishing the manuscript. Just because I wanted to see, how does he tell this? And not have the power of the throne come down at him. And if anyone, I began paying attention, I mean the story is wild, but also began paying attention to how he told it, or how the ghost writer was telling it for him. And I don't know if anyone else has read it, but there's kind of like, sometimes you read like, him saying, did this happen? He's like self doubting. Yes. In, in the book. Did you pick up on that also? Huh. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like he was like, I, am I remembering this correctly? Almost as [00:17:00] if like, you can't come after me. I'm telling you that it's just my memory. It's just Katherine: memory. Jenai: So I learned that it is different to write something as 100 percent fact, even though there are things in my book that were 100 percent fact. This is what happened, but because I didn't have evidence or I didn't have like a screenshot or a recording of the meeting to say this is 100 percent fact, I had to say. And this is such, it's weaker. It makes for weaker writing, but it protects you more. I had to say, I remember this person saying, Katherine: yeah. Jenai: Whereas before I had it written in dialogue, like so and so said this to me, and I responded in this way, and they said, we need this corroborated, or we need evidence, or you need to re write it and say, I remember. this happening. I remember this happening. And I thought, man, like, it kind of sucks a little bit. It sucks the, like the, the wind from your sails. But I remember that being a [00:18:00] pivotal a pivotal point in like, Oh, then there were some things I do. And I, I remember, I don't know if anyone's in the middle of anything. And I'm in a one party state, meaning as long as one party in the conversation consents to a recording. You can record the conversation. And so long as I was a party, I, I, I was like, I give myself consent to record this conversation, something in my gut before I even left my position, something in my gut said, Start recording these conversations. And so I did. You're going to have to look up your own local laws to see if you're a one party or a two party state. Sometimes you need consent from everyone in the meeting before you can record. I know California is like that and maybe others. Yeah. And so I remember hitting record. And feeling a little bit bad about that. I'm like, this is, this is, this seems weird and creepy on my part at the time, but there was something in my gut [00:19:00] that was telling me, record this conversation. And I remember texting a fellow coworker who was also experiencing the same like mess that I was. And I texted her and I said, is it wrong of me to record this conversation? And she goes, Oh my gosh, yes. And I thought it was wrong. Yes. She, even she like, even in who, And even she couldn't, cause it feels that creepy. Yeah. Like even the people who are in it with you might think, oh, this isn't gracious of you. But I didn't listen to her and I thought I was going to keep recording. And now, like if I talk to her now. And I told her, Hey, remember when you told me I should stop recording? I didn't, she would probably say, I'm so glad you didn't listen to me. Right. I'm so glad you just kept doing it. And so I, I did have evidence. I did have evidence. I had screenshots. Instagram messages, or not Instagram, my goodness. IPhone, iMessage. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like they have like these settings where it says, you know, delete my messages after a month, delete 'em after a year or whatever. I [00:20:00] turn that feature off, so I have a ton of like, storage on my phone from all my stored messages, but that's really so that I have all the evidence. And so I took screenshots. Yeah. And I put all of that in a folder to send off. For those that don't know, when you read a, when you write a book, they usually do what's called a permissions read. Meaning if you added stories of other people your editor will go through and read to see who do you need permission from. And they'll give you like a form to send to that friend who says, I give permission for this story to be in the book. And for me, I thought, well, I don't know how this is going to work. I'm not going to get permission from anyone to tell the story. Katherine: Yeah, Jenai: and they emailed me back and they were like, congratulations, you don't need to get permission. However, we do need to do a corroboration read or a legal read of the book, and this is what our lawyer has flagged as like comments in the document for like, this is where you need [00:21:00] corroboration or change the word or evidence and Yeah, so that's kind of like an overview of the process. Katherine: And corroboration is another person saying, yes, that. Yes, Jenai: yes, that happened. Even, even though you don't have evidence, if someone else can say, yes, this happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I know that that is exactly how that it played out. They are kind of like your witness. It is not evidence. It's your witness. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And that is. For them and for you in the event that you do get sued. We already have this ready, we have to go, we have someone backing this up, we have someone that has verified that this is true for that again doesn't necessarily prevent the lawsuit from happening, but it is stuff that can just protect you in the event. Some other things that are helpful that you are. Probably alluding to saying things like allegedly, or it is my opinion [00:22:00] appeared to me that X, Y said this, or it seemed as if, and that feels so weird saying that when it's like your story and it happened to you, but it's also just kind of acknowledging. A human limitation. So just kind of putting it in that category. And, and memory memory does change over time. It doesn't mean that it wasn't 100 percent true, but it we're just we're just kind of acknowledging human beings have limitations and I am a human being, and it's and it's protection. It's okay to protect yourself. You are not being dishonest, but it is, it does feel so weird, especially when we come out of these environments where we have been silenced and our story and our narrative gets taken by other people and twisted and reframed. We just want to say it like this happened and this person was so horrible, awful, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there are [00:23:00] spaces to do that. And. Maybe write the first draft with like every expletive you ever wanted to use, get it all out and then go back. and adjust it for public consumption. Maybe wait a few days. And so yes, those emotions need to be felt. Those emotions need to be gotten out and you also want to protect yourself. So both of those things can happen. And the importance of just the reality that the story is out there and there may be some things that just feel a little weird to say them a certain way, but it has a story out there. How do you navigate that of like, this wasn't the most ideal way to write this but it was the safest way to write this. How do you navigate that experience? Jenai: Yeah. I remember In, I think it's in the first chapter of the book, I am certain it's in the first chapter of the book, because I start the book with a story [00:24:00] of my first day of work that started with my executive director yelling Or, you know, whatever your definition of, yeah, I think it was yelling I called it not yelling, but he was raising his voice because, you know, there is no, I can't track the decibel level of what he's saying, and like, I don't want that to be a whole argument, but even that, I kind of cushioned and said, He wasn't yelling, but he was raising his voice to the degree that everyone in the building could hear him. You know what I mean? Katherine: Yeah, and so people are going to be like, he was yelling. Jenai: Yeah, he was yelling. And so it's subversive little things like that. And so. I, I kind of cushioned where I could, but then later in the chapter when I, my first chapter is kind of about giving people terms, because people use spiritual abuse in different ways, or church hurt in different ways, and so I kind of tracked with like, this is how I'm using them for the book. So I tell that [00:25:00] story, and then I share kind of my definition of these terms, and because I put some cushion in the story later when I talk about that experience, when I name what happened in that experience, I say, this was spiritually abusive. And I just say it. I felt like I had the confidence to say it there, because I had the allegedly in the cushion. I didn't, I didn't have to write this was a, I alleged that this was spiritual abuse. I could just say it with punch and power later in the chapter. And so there are kind of subversive ways like that, that you as a writer, or even if you tell your story because I know some people might be Not everyone's writing, some people are podcasters, some people are sharing their stories in different ways and so there are there are subversive ways to tell the truth, such that you are clever, and you can protect yourself as well. There's something, some verse in Matthew that's like, you know, be as wise as a serpent. But be as gentle as a dove [00:26:00] and I think I do that in the book like I had to navigate this I wanted the book to be compassionate, but I also wanted to be clever and I wanted to show like I could still tell my story and so yeah, there's places you can put cushion when you need to. And then if you're, if you're clever with your writing, the imagery and or the, you know, the imagination of the reader will fill in the gaps. Thanks. Yeah, Katherine: but then you are still protected. Jenai: Yeah. Katherine: Another, another thing that feels weird is when we're writing about someone who's not a public figure changing names, changing physical identifiers, that also feels super weird. Cause we're like, we just want them to know that it was this person. But the reality is that most people don't know that person. And so thinking of it as a wider. public facing thing rather than the 5, 10, 20, 100, or a thousand people within that space who would know who that is. And that vindication that we [00:27:00] would get from making it obvious who the person is versus protecting ourselves and, and just changing their name, changing physical identifiers. That's different if it is a public figure. When it's a public figure, you can phrase it. a way to phrase it is, or a way to, to angle it or approach it is to write it as if it is for the public good. Like, Hey, a lot of people are asking me about this person. And so I'm sharing this story so that the public will know that this happened, or it isn't, it is important to me that people know that this, you know, public figure. You know, Robbie Zacharias is a predator, you know, like, like stuff like that, where you are, you are saying you're doing it for the public good. And in essence, you are. So that is another way where they, again, they can still see you for [00:28:00] defamation and libel, all of the things. But when you're approaching it as I'm doing this for the, like, Oh, I'm just doing this for the public. And that's what, that's what journalists do. Like they, that's why they write, like, you know, Or that's the ethics that they are supposed to follow of this is important information. This is truth that the public needs to be aware of. And so that's another angle to approach it as and even a way to kind of approach the story as a, as a whole, as you, you did of It's important that people know there's a different way to interpret these verses and making sure that the public knows that there are other ways to say this. And that's another angle. And Jenai: that's why I actually don't use names or even fake names at all in my book. And I think that's a reason why I think people approach it. They're like, this is Jani's story. And I was like, this is really the story of my resistance. It's not the [00:29:00] story of like everything that happened. And so I think that might, like, you know, I think people want to hear like the nitty gritty and I. I would have had to use so much more mental and emotional labor if I was telling stories of how they allegedly kept using my social security number for their church credit card 18 months after I was fired. You know, like, I, I would have to, like, it would take so long. So much more mental labor for me to talk about, like how financial fraud came about or how, how all these other things happened and changing names. And so that's why I was like, I can't write a memoir. I'm not a memoirist. Katherine: Mm-Hmm, . Jenai: But I can tell my story of my resistance and in doing it, framing it that way, I could tell pieces of my story and then not use names. And so I say things like executive director. Yeah, or a senior pastor or lead pastor. And so the people who [00:30:00] are there who read the book will know exactly who I'm talking about. And another way that I've protected myself, and I don't know if a lot of people know this, is that I actually helped plant the church. And what I mean, what I say, what I mean when I say that is, In Texas, when you file for a non profit or corporate, a non profit corporation status with our state, you have to have three signing directors to kind of legalize this organization with, you know, the Austin. the state capitol. And I was one of the signers. So there, it was me and two other guys as signing directors that that stuff is open access. So if you go and Google that stuff, you find my name connected to that church. One way that I've protected myself is I don't write under my full name, Jani Amen. That's my first and my middle name. And When you, I mean, they could still probably find, if someone digs enough, [00:31:00] they can find it. But I can say I put, like, measures in place to not be connected. I don't name the church, that's another thing. I don't talk about even the neighborhood that it was in in the book. So people can't geographically locate it. So, in many ways, I have hemmed myself in from further harm that they could do, and I've just, I've provided cushion in other ways, not just in the book, but in how I approach telling my story, and a pen name, that's not deceptive to readers, that's like, pen names Yeah, pen names are, yeah, it's like industry standard people I mean, that's happened, pen names have happened for a long time. And so I didn't, I'm still writing under my genuine names. I'm just writing under my first and my middle name. Which is what a lot of people do. So yeah, that was just another way I protected myself. Katherine: Yeah. And then another [00:32:00] small detail that could play a role is the names of states lawsuits are, are usually organized by a state and it's called jurisdiction. So if it's if it's possible to remove even state identifiers and just use the area of the country or change the state or whatever, then that just that ties things up. Legally within the context of of a lawsuit and can make it like if it's outside of the, the person who did the wrong, allegedly did the wrong outside of their state and they have to sue across state lines or, or something like that. And, and there's no, indication that it actually happened within the state, within the writing then that can just make it a little bit trickier to file a lawsuit and to, to get it [00:33:00] through. And so it just makes it a little bit more challenging. So those are just some other things to consider as you're, as you're writing. I know when I write about my family, I always say the South. I never say the state. I always say the South. I've started doing very recently. And even if people ask me like in person where I grew up, I just say the South and they'll be like, where? And I was like, I just say the South. Just cause I don't want that connection to a specific state for those jurisdiction reasons. Another fun fact tidbit that is not legal advice. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things. You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash [00:34:00] support. Katherine: All right. Anything more we want to say about that before we jump into the experience of. working with lawyers and what what might happen on the other side of a lawsuit. Jenai: No, I, I think that kind of tidies up the I will say I have a very unique name. Not every, if you're like a Rachel Smith, You know, you probably have, if someone Googles you they're gonna find so many other Rachel Smiths. And so with the pen name thing, I don't want anyone to freak out or feel like they have to change their name, especially if your name means a lot to you. So please, I just want to be like really sensitive to that. As a Jani Amon, I, you know, or just a Jani in general, they're going to find me. I'm going to be on page one of the Google there, there are more of us than I realize, but the, there aren't as many who are public on the internet. And so, yeah, I would say that's the only thing I can say a Houston church and everyone's like Katherine: Yeah. We'll find you. People find you. And I mean, that is something that you can do. It's not, you know, [00:35:00] It's a it's an option for for protection using using the the pen name. And I think, as you said, if it's. very intentional that we're not trying to like go after this person and take them down. It, it helps. Those are just little things that can help. As we jump into talking about the bum, bum, bum, bum, what if you do get sued? Let's talk about some ways that We can protect ourselves in the event that that happens. It is not uncommon and just want to let folks know from where I sit in the work that I do, I am seeing, if you're talking about the spiritual abuse space and going public about abuse that pastors have done or denominations or whatever, I am watching pastors and denominations and organizations become more litigious. They are, they are fighting back. By filing civil suits. [00:36:00] Now it is my opinion. We need to also be fighting back and filing civil suits. But when you've been abused, a lot of times you don't want to do that. And that is it's over for you. You are moving on and health and you do not want to interact with that person anymore. But the, the increase of lawsuits and civil suits from. Pastors suing folks who have accused them of abuse that is growing and I project is probably going to continue to grow as they fight back and they lose power. So it is not. a unlikely event if you start going public and start talking about specific people especially and specific denominations especially. Very sad, just going to acknowledge that right here that that even needs to be a reality but as you absolutely quoted at the beginning Be Wise is Wise as serpents and gentle as doves and this is just a way to be [00:37:00] real wise when we start going public with our stories. Now, one thing to just be aware of, of I don't know that a lot of people know this but you can get Insurance for yourself for things like liable defamation, slander. And if you, I recommend talking to a local broker in your city and just say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. I have a podcast or I put a lot of stuff on my website or I'm writing a book and I need coverage. What are your recommendations? The brokerage will do, broker will do the research for you and likely present you with some options of things that you can purchase for your own protection. When you do that, when you have insurance and if these, you know, alleged abusers know that you have insurance, it does increase the likelihood that you're going to get sued. And the reason why is because if you get [00:38:00] sued and you have no money there, you file bankruptcy and they get nothing. If you, if they see you and have insurance, then they are increasing the likelihood that they are going to get money because insurances can just decide. This is, it's more expensive to defend this case than to settle this case and they can make that decision that they're going to settle instead of defend. That's just a nuance of how the system works. It does not mean that you are admitting fault. You never have to admit fault. But if an insurance company is covering you, then they might make that choice on your behalf. They can do that. And lawyers know that and so if you have insurance, it does increase. slightly increase your chance of getting sued. However, the alternative is basically you don't have insurance and then you then not only are going through the horrendous [00:39:00] emotional stress of a lawsuit, you're also having to pay for it. So that is just something to consider. As you are going public with your story and something very simple that you can do to protect yourself. You can add it on to your renter's insurance. You can add it on to your mortgage. I think it's a, if it's something that you do regularly, like for you and I, or for myself forming an LLC, forming a nonprofit so that you have the insurance to cover that specific entity and you do all of the work under that entity. So then you are not on the hook should something happen because it's under that entity. Those are just real weird nuances and something that most people are never going to have to know or be aware of. But for this particular thing of going public about our story of abuse is something for folks to be aware of. Would you like to share about what someone might expect [00:40:00] when, if they have to interact with lawyers? Jenai: Yes. And that was hard. That was hard. I don't remember if we said this during the recording, but lawyers are not. Dental? Yes. They're not trauma informed. They don't really, their concern is, Like winning and not necessarily, I mean, that's kind of like what I feel like with pastors, pastors are so many pastors, not all pastors are concerned about like upping the numbers. And sometimes the spiritual abuse happens because they look at the metrics and not at the people. And in many ways, I kind of felt some of that with like, Katherine: Hey, Jenai: just want to make sure that they win, not necessarily that this person is cared for. That's someone else's job. I will say I do not have a lawyer. I had, I worked with the lawyer, the legal representation with my publisher, so when I, when they did that permissions read, that was [00:41:00] not a permissions read, and they transferred it over to a legal read the editor read through, but then the editor also had the lawyer read through. And the lawyer went through and commented on the document certain things. Sometimes I don't know if I was supposed to see these comments or if they were supposed to scrub them. And I, I, because in reading some of their comments, they're trying to think about how can this writer say this? So that really so that everyone is protected, but sometimes they write it as if the writer did something wrong here and it just lands on you kind of hard. And getting the email that said, you know, we need, we need you to provide corroboration. It felt a lot like, They don't believe me. Katherine: Yeah. You have to prove that this was true. Jenai: Yes. Katherine: Yeah. And Jenai: that I knew it was coming from other people I had spoken with and other writers and authors that I know of. I knew that this was coming, so it didn't [00:42:00] hit me too hard. Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . I Jenai: can imagine that it might if other, other people aren't experiencing that, and I think. Oh, I'm so grateful for my agent. So if someone, if you can work with an agent some people say find whatever agent that you can find. But really my encouragement is if you can land with an agent, not just somebody who will have you, but someone who will have your back. Katherine: Yeah, that Jenai: is pretty pivotal. And she was sensitive enough. She also, that was another thing, all my emails between me and my publisher go to my agent as well. My agent is a part of an agency who has a lawyer at the head. And so he kind of, he's not my agent, but he's connected. And so I, I feel very kept at that particular, like, and held. Katherine: Yeah at Jenai: that agency, but my agent was sensitive enough that she got the email and before I responded to the email Or before I even texted her she texted me I want to say five [00:43:00] minutes after the email hit my inbox and she said I want you to know This doesn't mean that they don't believe you. They're all everyone's just concerned about making sure The book is protected that you're protected. This doesn't mean that they don't believe you and I You I knew that it was just really nice to have someone else tell me that. And I know that depending on, I think self publishing is a totally valid journey especially after going through publishing. So not everyone has an agent, but even if you can get someone in your corner, who's a part of walking through the process with you, even if it's not an agent who can read this stuff with you and tell you the things that Even you yourself know, I know that this means that they don't believe me. Hearing it from another person really does help just take care of like your body, your nervous system. And so that, but it was a very hard thing to read. And then the comments from the lawyer herself were also really. really hard. I think [00:44:00] sometimes some people think it's the men and I'm like, no, not Katherine: really. No, no, no, no, no. It is not. It is not. And they, they, again, as you said, they want to win. And so they are thinking about this from a perspective of like, if we get into a lawsuit, how will we win? What are the things that we need in order to win? And so much of the civil lawsuit there are absolutely situations. I know someone who is suing someone for financial fraud right now and it is a genuine situation in which they should be suing that person, but this can also just be this very capitalistic way for power holders to just be bullies. There aren't a lot of like regulations about like, is this a legitimate reason to sue someone. And so. It's a game. A lot of it's a game. And the, the lawyers, a certain type of person ends up being a lawyer, and they are, they're, they're, they're about strategy and the game, and how do I win this game, and they are [00:45:00] not, thinking you are an abuse survivor who has been extremely traumatized and they're not thinking how is this going to land for you. They also tend to have very little other than just like very high level understanding of like rape is sexual abuse. They don't have a lot of understanding about the nuances of abuse and what exactly is abuse. And so. That when you've already gone through an experience of having to justify and defend yourself and, and convince yourself that this is real and this really happened and, and what you are experiencing and how you are navigating your trauma is real to then have this real life experience of people just like not believing you, even though that's not necessarily the case, but it feels like they don't believe you. It can be very re traumatizing, and so we're just, we're just sharing this to just like, just be aware. Make, make a wise choice of, of this with [00:46:00] awareness. And as Janai said, surround yourself with people, give yourself some good people who are going to be there to support you. Also, something to keep in mind, a civil suit is not a criminal suit. You are not a criminal. You do not commit a crime. It might feel like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. Again, people can sue for any reason whatsoever. They do not have to have any, any corroboration. All they have to do is be a bully and have a lot of money. Jenai: Yeah. I write in other actually, like if people, if people you are calling out someone for misuse of power, they will continue to misuse their power and abuse their power to silence you. And so they're going to be like, oops, my bad. They will keep doing it. They will keep coming after you. And I think really the only way to stop it from happening is you have to find your power back. And, and that can be through a number of things, [00:47:00] whether, like, people can corroborate your story, you've gathered evidence I will say for anyone gathering evidence or in the middle of that process, don't necessarily do everything under, like, if you get something to your work email and that work email is connected to the abusive situation, start forwarding everything to your personal email because they will close that email account eventually and you will lose evidence, that was in my case, I've also, there was a pastor in my story. It's not in the book at all, but who has been trying to meet with me or he has been meeting with me for coffee, trying to reconcile, and I feel safe enough to have these conversations with him and not feel talked down to, or not feel, you know, gaslit. I won't let that happen. But because he has extended an olive branch and has kind of admitted to some of the wrongdoing he's done in the corroboration process, I needed to corroborate that I was given, you know two severance options, and I didn't have that screenshot. It was in, [00:48:00] like, a slide. I have a Slack channel that I'm no longer a part of. It was in my old work email that I never forwarded to my personal email. And so I had to get corroboration for that. And I asked this pastor, I will say lawyer or the lawyer for the publisher, they said, if your husband can corroborate, he is allowed to corroborate for your story. Right. So that was super helpful. And I, but instead of in title, my husband did corroborate for some of the things, but for this severance option, I thought I'm going to ask the pastor, my friend to do this, my former friend to do this because he can use the one that gave me the severance options. And it was really like a, let me see the test of your character, whether you'll do this, and he didn't, he said, Katherine: oh, goodness, he Jenai: said, there's just so much more nuance. And I'm not saying whether or not there is nuance to the situation. And by the way, I reject his nuance. It was total crap. I was just saying, the [00:49:00] corroboration is. Did you or did you not give me two severance options? And he wanted to say, you know, he wanted to say, but this happened, like, and I was like, yeah. And I said, can you do this? Can you confirm this? And he said, no, I won't corroborate for you. And I was like, you dirty liar. I was like, fine. I, I, I wasn't upset. I was just like, okay. Katherine: You showed, you showed your colors. Jenai: Yeah, you are actually Like confirming that you are still in alignment with the character of the person that I knew before. And like my lack of trust with you is validated. Like I can no longer trust. I can't, like my, my gut is telling me the right things. I gave you an opportunity to mend some of that trust and you did not. So I still have it in the book that I was given two severance options because my husband was like, yes, you were given two severance options. And I remember that. And if it ever [00:50:00] goes to court and everyone gets deposed, that's what they're going to say, you know, like you, yeah, Katherine: you have to. Yeah. And exactly. I can cut this from the episode, but was one of the options, Like you have to sign an NDA and you get this? Jenai: No. Okay. There was no NDA. We can keep this in. I was given two severance options. Here's the thing, and this is how pivotal, I was the primary on the bank account. Like my, I could have done anything with the finding. I didn't. But that I, I had the passwords to everything. I was the primary check signer. I had a lot of things that I was responsible for. I had no power over because they, you know, kind of cuffed me in terms of like what did and didn't happen. And I was trying to follow the rules. But because I had the access and the responsibility to maintain everything, they couldn't just get rid of me super quick because they needed that access. And [00:51:00] so my severance options were two weeks notice and two months severance. Or I work for two months and I get another three months severance and I, this was 2020. This is when people are losing their jobs. And I thought I need, I actually asked, I said, can I have more severance? Like, this is, you are my brothers. Yes. You are, you are like, tying my hands behind my back. You have given me no voice and no choice, even though I have consistently told you that this man's harmful. Can I have more severance? They ignored that request. I actually met with somebody who, and I told him, I said, remember you were ignored this request. And he was like, did we? And I said, yes, I remember asking for six months of severance. Because they do whatever they can't have to in their mind to protect their male fragility that they've done something wrong my husband was there, but the severance thing was [00:52:00] really really hard The kicker is is they did eventually get rid of the senior pastor They gave him like nine ten months worth of severance His salary. I, his salary was six figures. My salary was in the fifties. Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I felt like I wasn't asking a lot. A lot. I wasn't asking for a lot. Katherine: Right, exactly. Jenai: They gave him my salary and then some through his severance, like later, and I thought. Man, like, I, whatever, this is obviously, like, here is another instance where you have made a value statement that one person was more valuable than another, and even in sending them away, you wanted to send him away with so much care, and you just freaking threw me off. Yeah. It threw me overboard. So, Katherine: yeah. Oh my gosh. I have heard so many stories [00:53:00] like that of just like, they'll be so stingy with the person who blew the whistle. And then when they, you know, get forced to like, get rid of the pastor because it's just, too much collateral to keep him on because so many people are leaving or for whatever reason and and then they just send him off with like a year of severance and like you know continue to pay his insurance and like all this kind of stuff and you're just like guys yeah it is not an equitable system in any way shape or form Jenai: i would say i probably if i had to venture a guess i will never find a civil suit filed against me because I in gathering evidence and in kind of trusting my gut. They didn't know that I was recording things after they let me go and terminated me. They began a quote unquote internal investigation. And if anyone knows, it's not really that much of an investigation where they investigate themselves, [00:54:00] you know, like, come on, man. But. In these internal investigation talks, I recorded everything, and I was kind of triangulating the information with some members. And I was asking them, what are they telling you? Because this is what I was told. And what are they telling you? And thankfully, some of those what they were telling the members, some of that's recorded in member meetings. And so I was like, okay. One way. I think we mentioned before pastors still feel like they are just leaders in general feel like they have power. That's why they keep coming after you. And then 1 way to prevent that is to get your own power back. Once I revealed to them that I had been recording things. and catching them in their lies. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: They realized, Oh, we can't just tell her one thing and tell the members another thing. Cause I remember, I remember them telling me, you know, pastors on [00:55:00] probation, pastors, this, I recorded that meeting without their, their knowledge, because it's one party consent. And then I heard from the member meeting that Pastor went on stage and he said, they've given me time off. Like he wasn't, he wasn't forthright with I'm on probation. They also gave him the power to tell the story himself. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Which I thought, don't you know? And they were like, we gave him like an opportunity to own. And I was like, no, you didn't. You gave him an opportunity to save face and Katherine: I Jenai: sent them an email. And I said, this is what you've done. This is what I was told. Here is the screen recording. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but there's an app called Loom, where I, I think they might have disabled this feature. This was early days, 2020, when people were figuring out screen recording and all that stuff. But Loom will record, did record my screen. And because I didn't do it through Zoom, it didn't let the person know that I was [00:56:00] recording the call. Katherine: And so, Jenai: I sent them that video that said, This is what you said. Here it is in the transcript. And they stopped. Like, they just, they realized, Oh my gosh, we have to be more careful with her. Katherine: Mm hmm. And then at Jenai: that point, they, I noticed significantly that they were mincing words with me. Because, Katherine: they knew. Jenai: Well, and because I got my power back, they just couldn't just tell me anything anymore. I was weighing and measuring it against everything else they were telling other people. Katherine: Yeah, yeah. And if you are still happen to be in your situation, your abusive situation, document, document, document, document, document. If you can't record it, you can, you can leave a meeting and you can write your own notes. You can save the emails, as you know, I was saying, save the screenshots. Have your have all of your things that feel so weird to do that. Like you're just like a double agent. But just think of it that [00:57:00] way. Like, like you are a double agent in a hostile regime, just like, like that person. And yeah. and protect yourself and give yourself what you need to survive that. Speaking of survival in the event that you do get sued it is a very traumatizing situation to, like, have to be interacting with this stuff again and to not have agency over when you interact with that stuff. And, and it can be very re traumatizing. Litigation abuse is a real thing, such as. A, you know, woman tries to leave her violently abusive husband, even has a restraining order out. And for that husband to just want, he just wants to keep controlling her and maintain contact with her. We'll just sue her for nothing just to, to maintain the contact. So litigation abuse is a real thing. And that might help to just kind of look at it. That way of like, I'm [00:58:00] being abused in real time and care for yourself. If that were true, surround yourself with people, take a lot of naps be in therapy, if you can and give yourself a lot of tenderness and care in that situation. And you don't have to be this strong, bad ass all the time. Like if it's hard for you and it is a struggle, that's okay. It's okay if that is a struggle for you and you and it impacts you. That's why they're doing it. Like they're trying to impact you and for it to actually impact you and actually be like real time abuse that you're experiencing and for that to have an effect on you, that's okay. And give yourself resources in that situation so that you are actually being supported. when that is happening. One final thought and then I'll let you share final thoughts [00:59:00] too. If you decide that you want to file a civil suit against against a perpetrator or an abuser and you got a lot of evidence and a lot of corroboration and you think you got a good case, there are lawyers that work on contingency who will look at your case and say, I'm going to defend this case for free and I get paid if you get paid. So that is an option to do your research and not legal advice, but I really hope more people will do that. Do that, do that thing and just let them know, Hey, you're going to sue us. We're going to sue you. Monique, any final thoughts or any other things that you want to add to something that we left out or holes to fill? Yeah, Jenai: yeah. I will say if you live in a two party state and you have to get consent before recording, that can still work in your favor too. So after my former leaders found out I was recording, they eventually asked me to partake in a reconciliatory meeting. And I, I know I was like, I [01:00:00] will, I will come to that. And I told them I will come to that on two conditions. I, I had already sat on one side of the table with all six of them before. And I said, I need advocates there for me. Beyond my husband, I, I, I want people there who are for there for us. And the second request was that I record the meeting. If you, I thought, well, it's going, they're going to be much more careful with their words when they record the meeting, but still in that meeting, there were still some tells. Katherine: Yeah. For Jenai: instance, one thing I wrote about in other, I think maybe it's chapter three about apologies. And how I'm sorry, you feel that way is different than I, I'm sorry, I did this to you. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: And in this rec, like this meeting that they, that they, they said, yes, they let me record it. They still said, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I'm sorry. You feel like you, I would, I had dismissed you and I'm sorry. And like, they still [01:01:00] kind of tell on themselves. So if you live in a two party state and you feel like you can't do these clever one party things. You can still gather good information, even if you ask. And they will still, they show their colors, even if they don't think that they're showing their colors. Like, I really think sometimes, sometimes some people know what they're doing and I think sometimes the self deception is so deep, they just don't know how bonkers it is. Or they're Katherine: super arrogant and they, they really genuinely feel like they can do whatever they want. Jenai: Yeah, yeah. And so there are ways in which you can gather information, even if, like, you don't have a similar one party state situation, like I do. I will also say that when it comes time to providing corroboration, you know, Asking for corroboration, I mentioned, was really hard, but also going back through the evidence, some of my evidence was audio or video recording, and [01:02:00] I had to go back and listen to Jenai: Or watch the video and provide a timestamp. I had to send them the audio or video link and give them a timestamp, and I, that was very difficult. Very hard on me. I did it because I needed to, but if that sounds like something you don't want to do try to find you'll, you'll, if you want to write it the way that you have it and not say, I remember this, you want to actually use that. Just be gentle with yourself. That is a really hard thing. I think I needed to not look at the book for a while after providing evidence because that was listening to those voices and seeing those faces again. It was really hard. And so I just wanted, I didn't want to not say that because people think, Oh, I have all this evidence going back and looking at the evidence can be really, really hard on you. Yeah. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important to just have our, our agency and interact with the [01:03:00] material in our own way in our own time. And when you have something like a book deadline, You don't always have that that capacity to just, yeah. You know, do it on your own time and just when you, when you feel good enough for it. And and a and a civil suit similar is there's deadlines, there's timelines, and you can't just like, oh, I just wanna block out this day and then the next day I'm gonna go get a massage. Like, you don't always have that agency. And just that, just that lack of control within that. Contacts can also feel retraumatizing. And so since we probably discouraged everybody listening to from going public with their stories, what let's remind folks again, like why it's sometimes important to go public with our stories. Jenai: I think it was important to me personally to keep my integrity. I did everything I could do to stop someone else from getting hurt. I, I stood up, I did exactly what my [01:04:00] faith had encouraged me to do. I did exactly the thing I, I believe. And I write this in the book sharing your story and telling your story and owning your story is a way to be like what I think the prophets of the old Testament did. The prophets, they didn't tell fortunes. They were calling people in power to account. I now realize the weight of that, like, oh my gosh, like that is, I did exactly, I spoke up and I don't, I know that not everyone will speak up, not everyone, you know, I had power, I had gathered all this evidence, I had the power to speak up because I had kind of things that bolstered me, not everyone has that, and I, I don't want anyone to feel shame If they feel like they can't tell their story because they don't have that same kind of support or evidence but keep telling your story to yourself so that you're validating yourself. If, if no one else will affirm you, there is still so much power in [01:05:00] affirming your own truth, your own story. No one can take that away from you, but they will do their damnedest to take it away from you. I will also say that it is. mentally grueling. It is I just want people to take care of themselves. Above all, just, just to, if you do and do this work and you know you're going to tell your story give yourself a lot of space and say no to other things that Yeah. Other expectations, other, you know, there are other friends who I'm promoting this book and it's a very vulnerable book. There are other friends who are also writers who also want me to write endorsements or who also in this particular time want me to do something for them and support them. And as much as I love them, I have had to say no to a lot of them as I promote this book or do this work because I'm trying to do it well and with capacity. And because the story is so vulnerable, it takes a lot out of me. So say like, just be [01:06:00] understanding that you have to say no to a lot of people that you love and like, that's okay. Yeah, the people who love you who hear no from you will still like acknowledge that this is okay. Katherine: Absolutely. Jenai: If they take offense to that, then maybe they aren't as big a support as you thought they were and just redraw the boundaries of that relationship, but make a lot of space for you and doing this work. Katherine: Absolutely. And the reality that it's really important to tell our story, to tell our version of the story, to reclaim our narrative, to reclaim our power post an abusive situation, but there are many ways to do that. And telling a story publicly does not have to be the only or only way. Or even an option like we it's important to tell those stories 100 percent highly encouraged finding safe places where you can tell your story. You don't have to go public with it. [01:07:00] Absolutely. And, and. There are things you can do if you decide that that's important to you to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and protecting yourself. Listen to this episode for that. As we wrap up, how can people find you, find your book, interact with you, and yeah, what are the easiest places for people to get in touch with you? Jenai: I am everywhere on the internet at Janiyah Amin. And I'm usually hanging out on Instagram, not really on Twitter or X or whatever it is anymore. It's getting more vitriolic over there. I also, what prompted this conversation was not only that I'm promoting a book, but I also wrote about this experience on Substack. And if you want, Catherine, I can send you the link and you can include that in any show notes on the website, but also what I've considered doing and what I might do for the release of this episode is. Maybe Othered is not the book for you. Maybe you, but if you want to pick up Othered and you [01:08:00] want to see some of these instances where I discussed kind of changing language or things I needed corroboration for, you can pick up the book and I will write a new substack post that kind of delineates, like, this is the area, this page this is the story I was telling, this is what it originally looked like, and this is how I had to change it from For the lawyers. I can do that as well and I can just make that available to y'all. So just so that you can do whatever you can do to protect yourself. But I'm around, I'm a human being. I have email if anyone ever wants to email me I'm not famous. I'm not looking to be famous. I'm looking to be a resource. So if I can be a resource or just a compassionate witness to you and your story, just send me an email. DMs are really bad. Just because DMs are like. You know, random guys slide in there and they say weird things. And so I try not to, Katherine: yeah, Jenai: but email is a much more safe space and that's where I'm much more engaged. So feel free to go to my website and send me an email. And I'm usually pretty prompt with those. So. [01:09:00] Katherine: Yeah. Awesome. I, yeah, I would love it if you have the capacity to write that that additional sub stocks. Just, I love super practical, pragmatic examples of like, this is how I originally wrote it. And then this is how I changed it. That would be, that would be so cool. If you don't have the capacity to do it, I totally understand. But here's hoping by the time this episode comes out, we'll have that. That would be awesome. And we can always do it later or put it on the website or something like that. That would be awesome. Thank you so much. I'm real excited about this. This is a massive conversation in the trauma recovery, spiritual abuse recovery space. So I'm so excited to like finally have this conversation. So thank you so much for coming and recording with us. Jenai: Yeah. Thank you for having me on. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes. I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. [01:10:00] And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

3. 

   9 Jul 2024

   S5:E14 - A Recovering Evangelical Testimony Featuring Mattie Jo Cowsert

   Mattie Jo Cowsert (https://www.mattiejocowsert.com/) was a pastor’s kid and proud purity ring wearer before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate. When marriage equality passed in 2015, Mattie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she’d been taught about this Jesus guy in her first publicly released blog post entitled: God and the Gays. (https://www.mattiejocowsert.com/post/god-and-the-gays) This was the start of her popular blog, God, Sex, and Rich People. Before terms like “deconstruction”, “purity culture” or “Exvangelical'' became hashtags viewed by billions (https://www.tiktok.com/discover/deconstruction?lang=en), God, Sex, and Rich People exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female Exvangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the 1%, and trying to have good sex without hating herself in the city that never sleeps (and never stops sleeping around). Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024. Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners (https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners) Sign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s (https://www.katherinespearing.com/spiritual-abuse-book) upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about (https://www.tearsofeden.org/about) Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden (https://www.tearsofeden.org/), a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support (https://www.tearsofeden.org/support) To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com (mailto:tearsofeden.org@gmail.com) Follow on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/uncertainpodcast/) @uncertainpodcast Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Uncertain is the affiliate podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse from the evangelical community. So I don't think I've had the chance to officially announce, But in April of this year, I partnered with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery to work as a practitioner for them. Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is a online agency that works with survivors of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, purity culture, folks who are deconstructing, All of the things, and it's 100 percent online, so you can meet with a practitioner online. So many folks are addressing the religious trauma that came from evangelicalism, from working in the church, and they're looking for good mental health professionals that understand this. I know that with most of the clients that I work with, they [00:01:00] have already worked with therapists before in the past. But one of the main things that they struggled with in their therapy relationship was that the therapist didn't understand the nuances and the complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism. So if you are looking for a mental health practitioner to help you navigate the complex and confusing and very painful journey of recovering from religious trauma and the trauma from spiritual abuse, I encourage you to check them out. I'm a practitioner there. I see clients one on one. I currently have a client. Few openings for new clients and there are also several other practitioners that have openings for clients as well. So that is an option available to you. Another thing that I haven't announced yet on the podcast is that In April, also in April of this year, I signed a book contract. I am working with Lake Drive Books as my publisher for this book. [00:02:00] And what do you know? The book is about spiritual abuse. It will contain a A lot of my journey, but my journey also entails working with clients, working with survivors through Tears of Eden, there are some genuine quotes that are taken straight from some of the podcast episodes here. So you'll be in familiar territory. One of the gaps in the current literature around spiritual abuse that my book is going to hopefully fill is addressing the reality that The theology and evangelicalism and in the modern day church actually has a massive impact on the rampant abuse that we are now seeing in the church. I haven't seen a lot of that connection made in the current literature that's out there. Our previous guest from last week, Krista Brown, she made that connection really well. Like this theology actually leads to the abuse. So Other than that, I just really haven't seen that much happening. So that's one [00:03:00] of the things that's going to be showing up in this book as well. That's just a little bit of a sneak peek. We'll probably do some sort of launch event through Tears of Eden when it comes out in 2025. The exact date is still to be decided, but subscribe to Tears of Eden's newsletter so that you can get updates on that book when it's coming out and all of the deets around that. The guest today is Maddie Jo Kausert. Maddie Jo was a pastor's kid and proud purity ring wearer, before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion, thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate. When marriage equality passed in 2015, Maddie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she'd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first public release blog post entitled, God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog. God, sex, and rich people. Before terms like deconstruction, purity culture, or [00:04:00] evangelical became hashtags viewed by billions, God, sex, and rich people exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female evangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the one percent, And trying to have good sex without hating herself in a city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around. Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024. Maddie is hilarious and super fun, so I'm very much looking forward to reading her book when it releases. Here is my interview with Maddie Jo Kausert. Katherine: Well, welcome, Glenda, to have you here. I love the title of your book. Why don't you tell us the title of your book? Mattie: I Katherine: will. Mattie: Yes. God's Sex and Rich People, a Recovering Evangelical Testimony. Katherine: Fantastic. And you are coming from New York, where you work as an actor? Mattie: Mm hmm. Katherine: Actor. Mattie: And now [00:05:00] author. Now author. Actor, writer, shameless overshare is what I say. Or sometimes I say actor, writer, babysitter for billionaires. It kind of depends on my crowd. Katherine: Are you still a babysitter for billionaires? Mattie: I am. I am a babysitter. You know, something of the, of the unexpected twists and turns my life has taken. I did not foresee my being like solely raised to be a mom and a wife to be so lucrative. Incredibly lucrative in New York City. There are lots of, of, and I'm not saying this is true of my family, of the family I work for, but there are lots of families in New York that actually don't want to parent their kids. So I'm great. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. I'm Mattie: good at it. Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. I had a life where I nannied. I enjoyed it. I like, Mm-Hmm, . I really enjoyed it. And there are times where I consider going back to it because . Mattie: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Let me know. I know someone looking for a nanny in [00:06:00] St. Louis. We can get, we can follow up after. Katherine: All right. Let's do it. But yeah. And I had six younger siblings. Mm-Hmm. . And so like, it was like. Super like, I was like, this doesn't work like this. Mattie: Exactly. This is just like my life. Katherine: This is life for me. Yeah. And now I get paid for it. I like this. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, all right. I'm like trying to like in my head, then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay. So maybe let's start with your, just like your journey, cause you, you're from Branson, Missouri, and you somehow ended up in New York acting and working with rich people. So tell me How you got from point A to point B. And then if you want to touch on some of the things like the journey, the deconstruction stuff that you you are writing about on your blog and on in your book I would love to hear all of those things and then we can just kind of see where it goes. We're going to have, [00:07:00] we're going to have a great Mattie: time. Great. Yeah. And like I kill, I am a loquacious individual. So if you ever need to stop me and say like, you know, just. Interrupt me whenever. So I was born a preacher's kid which if you were a preacher's kid in the 90s, I mean, there are, there are, You know, different varieties of what that could mean. But my variety was of the, the general Baptist convention, which is not, it is an actual like denomination. It's different from first or second Baptist or Southern Baptist, but like it's, it's generally Baptist, right? I think the only thing that's different, it doesn't matter. There's some theology things, right? And they made their own church from the other Baptists. And. My, I say that, I say this in the book, my roots in evangelicalism are as deep as my roots in America. My great grandfather was a Baptist pastor. My grandfather on that side was a Baptist pastor. On my dad's [00:08:00] side, my grandfather was a Baptist pastor and then my dad became a Baptist pastor. So it's just, it's, this shit's literally in my blood. We were Baptist in terms of, like, the traditionally Baptist, but then we, by junior high, we kind of crossed over into the non denominational world, which was very exciting for people coming from a denomination where there was no dancing Katherine: and Mattie: lustful hip moving. And now we got, like, You know, a full band and cool, like, spinny lights and a sick sound system. It was Katherine: hip Christianity. Mattie: Yes, absolutely. So then I, I and like, I will mention this, the church that my dad was the pastor at before we switched over to the non denom world is was Stuart, our Alan Clark's church. I don't know if you remember him. He's the one that kind of went viral. For saying that, like, basically having a Trump rally at a church for saying, like, if on a Mother's Day service, like, if you [00:09:00] women are, like, too fat, and your husband's not gonna be attracted to you, and he cheats on you, like, all the things we sort of subtly heard in church growing Katherine: up. I've heard, I've heard these, I've heard this before, I wouldn't have connected the name, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mattie: Super, super great. And he, like, did my He did my grandpa's funeral, like, yeah, so but my, he was not there, obviously, when my dad was the pastor there, but I lived at the parsonage of that church, right? So then for a while, my dad got, like, a normal person job while he was seeking out, you know, different pastoral opportunities, and we, in the meantime, we started going to this non denominational church, and that was really, like, my home church, and then my dad got on staff at that church as the community pastor. So even though he wasn't like at the pulpit, he was still like a big part of it. And that was like my, my high school experience was, being at church so much, I was there like so much and it was my whole social life. And to be honest, I think something I don't really highlight enough is I really loved that experience. Like I loved that I was not [00:10:00] drinking and I wasn't having sex in high school. I got to really enjoy being a kid. And I think a lot of high school. trying not to be the age they are. And I really, I really feel like I got that in high school. And then also like I wasn't really dating and because of like purity rings and everything. So I didn't have the same amount of boy drama that I feel like a lot of girls are distracted from. And then because at church we learned a lot about like, Cultivating deep, meaningful relationships with people. I feel like I had a really strong friend group. So lots of great things came of my, my time at church, right? And then, but along with it, you know, was a lot of really bad shit. And I went to college and I I did go to school for theater. So sort of as a natural outcome of that, I started questioning some of what I was, I had learned in church around gay people going to hell and everything. There's a chapter in my book, it's all caps. Everyone is going to hell. Because like, I had gay [00:11:00] friends and I was like, oh no, all my friends are gonna burn. And And so that was sort of the beginning of me really questioning some of this stuff, but I was still very much in it like I was in a a missions focused group in mission and fellowship focused group throughout college and I had a boyfriend who I totally thought I was going to marry. We did not have sex. We were saving ourselves. That was a bit of a, like, Capulet Montague tale because he was Catholic and my family was Baptist and, you know, the Catholics aren't real Christians. So that was some fun drama, but in, in dating him, I learned a lot about Catholicism and a lot about the roots of Christianity. Whatever. And I really feel like I, I developed a love for liturgy that I didn't get in my non denominational background. So in some ways, I feel like it deepened my spirituality being with him, and because I thought we were going to get married there, There's some stuff I could go back to, but I'll [00:12:00] say this and then go back, I guess. Because I thought we were going to get married, I was okay with like saving myself. Cause I was like, Oh, but we'll still get married by like 22. And then I can have sex. And then we ended up breaking up my, my later in my junior year of college. And I was like, Well I guess that option. Yeah. And also alongside it, all of I, this is part of like the, the rich people part of my story. When I was 14, I decided I was going to go to summer camp. We didn't really have you didn't really have summer camp that wasn't church camp where I was and you didn't, I didn't really have any access to theater training in Branson. I know shocking because of all of the live music, but live entertainment, but it was not the kind of theater I was trying to do. Please. I was Broadway bound, you know? And so my parents were like, well, why don't we, I was going through a pretty rough bout of anorexia and I think it was kind of my parents, like effort of like getting my sparkle back. [00:13:00] You know, they knew I loved theater and whatever. So then I just like Googled this is all in the book. So you can like read it more in depth there. I Googled and I found the top performing arts camp in the country. And I decided, okay, I'll go there. And then I looked at the price tag and I was like, holy shit, people pay this much for camp. And so then I raised the money. I was like, I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. And I like raised the money to go to camp and I ended up doing it. And then upon arriving at camp, I was like, oh. This is why this camp is so expensive. It's just for rich kids. And like, I was this little me from rural Missouri and I had like done a car wash in the Walmart parking lot to be there, you know? And so that was a really interesting culture shock and experience. And then, but it was actually I feel like my, Without having words for it, which is actually a really beautiful thing about like being young. Feel like I really had my first real [00:14:00] connection with the divine at being like in a play at camp. Yeah. Katherine: And, you know, I love that so much. I love that so much. I wonder so much more about that, but yes, continue. Yes. Mattie: So then again, sort of without words, like I never, I was never like, Okay, like I never made like a conscious choice that I was gonna be an actor. I just knew I was gonna be an actor. Yeah. I was like, well, this is what I'm designed to do. I clearly feel the most at home and joyful when I'm doing it. I was really good at it. I was a better actor when I was 14 probably than like college because I was just pure, you know? And and yeah, I was like, And that's when I, yeah, I felt the most connected to God was on, was being in that play. And so then from there on out, I was like, okay, I'm going to go to college for theater and I'm going to, then I'm going to move to New York city. And I did, I, I did those things. But when I was in college, I felt, and I would like visit New [00:15:00] York every year. during spring break and I would feel this pool of like my sense of adventure and my like wanting to perform and having this love for culture and diversity and really being at not, I don't want to say at war, but in conflict with what I was supposed to do as a woman of God, which was like get married. have kids, all of that, right? And I just, I would always wonder, like, how am I going to make these two worlds happen? You know, like Katherine: identity on who you are and what you love. And you're so aware that it doesn't fit. In this system that told you you were supposed to be this thing and how just, oh, yeah, just like the, the confusion that probably resulted from that. And tell me more about that unpack. Yeah, Mattie: so I felt it was just this [00:16:00] conflict of. Of knowing, you know, like part of the brilliant work of the evangelical church and I would argue like, you know, religious systems in general is the their ability to detach individuals from themselves. So I call it like. Self severance and the work of deconstruction is actually integration is like actually getting to know and not vilify your feelings your thoughts your opinions because what are we told like if it's not of the lord it's it's of the flesh right like everything is just a dichotomy of like good and evil and so yeah i again i didn't have words for it but i was like why do i feel more connected to myself And more joyful in New York City with all of these like theater weirdos than at church singing songs, you know, and, or like not even at church singing songs, cause I did like to sing. So I did like that, but I, but more, you know, following the rules, [00:17:00] doing the purity culture thing, showing up in a particular way, not going out and drinking and all of this stuff. And I was like, I just, that just isn't me. Like I'm. I'm like pretty horny and boy crazy and I don't know why that has to make me like less of a Christian But that was that was the competing narrative. Those were the competing narratives, right? It's like to give up my virginity to give up getting married therefore getting married young, right? To give up these things that were so upheld in the evangelical church would mean that I was not living in alignment with God, and I was not living in alignment with my higher calling. And another thing that the evangelical church does so masterfully is they really they really, like, pedestalize Yes. And so Katherine: the Mattie: heart or Katherine: something. Sacrifice. this identity would have been more holy. Mattie: Exactly. Exactly. So luckily [00:18:00] after I went on a mission trip to Indonesia with my missions group where basically the whole time they were just telling us like, look, if you're not willing to like pick up your cross and follow me to Indonesia to be a full time missionary, you don't love Jesus enough. If you are not willing to be a modern day martyr for the Lord. You're not a Christian. Like you just, like your faith isn't actually the most important thing to you. And then making you feel such shame for that. And I came back from that trip and I was like, okay. All right. So first things first, I guess I'll break up with my boyfriend. Cause now I have to move to Indonesia and I don't, I know he doesn't want to do that. And then I'm going to, I guess, finish out my musical theater degree, but I'll, I'll move to. another country in the 1040 window instead of moving to New York City. And I talked to my dad about it and he was like, that is such a pile of crap. Luckily, I say this in the book, I have a, [00:19:00] a father who is like, you know, more like Oprah than he is like, you know Baptist pastor and he was just like to go against what you were designed to do would be going against god What? Yeah, and he was like you Mm hmm. I know i'm really grateful for my parents, which is another thing we can talk about is they're like very like, level headed intellectuals. Well, my dad for sure. My mom is like, very like common sense. So she, for her, it just doesn't compute. She's like, how could you follow Donald Trump and follow Jesus? Those two things are not the same at all. So there, I'm lucky in that regard, for sure. But anyway, so, so Yeah, that was just the the conflict, but I guess because I was not I was only surrounded by people who thought differently than the than the herd, I guess you would say for like one week out of the year It was like one week out of the year. I would go to new york city and I would get a different dose of like this whole vast world [00:20:00] that wasn't my own. But then you, I would go back to Missouri and all those questions that would be festering and everything, they would just get stifled because all I'd have is everybody else in my ear saying something different. And it wasn't until my boyfriend and I like fully broke up and I realized, okay, I am now for sure, for sure. Moving to New York city. Katherine: What was the boyfriend? The Catholic one. Mattie: Yeah, yeah I am for sure for sure moving to New York City And the logistics of that with, like, marriage, I don't know, man. And then, that was really, I would say, like, that was the catalyst for the rest of my undoing. Because now, I really knew I was going to New York. And so, you know, it's like, they say, I had people say to me, well, like, you know, don't let those liberals convert you. So, help. And then I like went, I'm like, well, they did it. They did their, their [00:21:00] wizardry, I guess. But yeah, then once I got to New York and I just say like, just by living there and I can go a little bit more into that if you want me to, but just by living there, I was just sort of constantly accosted by all the ways that. My, the faith that I had been presented that had these like rules really only worked in a very specific culture outside of that culture. They do not work. So I, so then I'm thinking like, but this is the God who created like, Like, you know, like, the, the freaking, like, geysers, and, and like fuzzy caterpillars, and then like, the whole galaxy, and he can't find it in his galacting making heart to love gay people? Like, it just was, I, and the more I was with, you know, These people who were different. I was like, it's just not computing. But you know, honestly, when I moved to New York, I did not yes, the questions were happening and they were definitely like I guess percolating is the right word for it. [00:22:00] But I, I definitely had no intention of like losing my identity as a Christian. I thought, you know, I thought, you know what, I'll work through this like purity culture thing, I'll figure that out first, and the gay people thing and whatever. But then, once I started dissecting scripture, and I started to do a really big deep dive in like history. textual critic, textual criticism, any sort of like breaking down of, of the Bible outside of like the case for Christ, you know, anything that didn't have like a very strict Christian agenda, things that were just scholastic. Like I was literally reading textbooks from like courses at Columbia, you know I was like, don't even think I'm a Christian because if, if I have to believe that Jesus. is the messiah to and that he came here to die for our sins and the resurrection and all of that if i have to believe all of that to be a [00:23:00] christian Katherine: yeah Mattie: i don't think i do Katherine: yeah Mattie: and it was just sort of like to to have continued to buy into it experiencing everything that I was experiencing, learning everything I was learning would have been the ultimate, like, self negligence. Yeah. And I had come too far in my journey of authenticity to do that. Yeah. And like, to be honest, I feel like that was kind of my, like, That was my moment where I was like, I will never turn on myself. Because if I can give up this. Yeah. Which is like everything about me. So now everything's going to unravel now. After this. And it did. And it was not pretty. Then I think I'm gonna always. Be able to know myself and come back to myself. I didn't know that consciously at the time obviously but Which again is like then you're fighting like the youth pastor [00:24:00] jiminy cricket in your head That's like but you're not good. You can't trust yourself. You are sinful, you know, like you can't All of those things. So everything, I just say like deconstructing is just like a total mindfuck. I at least had the privilege of being geographically removed from it, but most people who are deconstructing, like you expressed earlier, it's like they're still very much in it. So I imagine that has to be a lot harder. Like I was in a place where, I use this joke, like if you, if I told people in my circles that I had just gone to a worship service, they'd be like, Oh. An orgy? Like, what does that mean? You know, the language just isn't the same. Katherine: Exactly, and you realize that once you get out of it. It's like, oh, that is like such this insider cellular conversation. And when you start to use those words, and you're like, oh, this sounds so weird. Yes. Sounds weird because it is weird. Yeah. Yeah, because Mattie: it is weird exactly and like the more people that you meet that don't grow up in it. I'm like, that's a really [00:25:00] good like if you really want to like quickly divvy up like what is total bullshit and what is like Okay of what we learned in church, just tell all of the pillars of your youth group lessons to someone who didn't grow up in it and you will figure it out very quickly. Watch their face. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you have any questions about that. But yeah, that's how I got from there to here. Katherine: This is a dynamic that I was I would love to discuss with you. So I escaped a cult, like shiny, happy people cult when I was in my mid twenties, and I immediately moved to a different country. And then after that, I went to seminary and then I lived in, I lived in DC and I lived in LA. And I lived in St. Louis for grad school and it, and I can see very starkly the role that [00:26:00] getting out and getting in geographically getting into a different space and being around different people. It just accelerated everything and, so tell me about the role that that played in your life of just like being in the big city and like getting out Mattie: Yeah, I do talk about that a lot, about like, geographical privilege. Because I was not going to lose my entire community if I said I don't think gay people are going to hell. Some people, especially if they're married and they have kids, and like, If they admit that, some of them it's like tied to their income, like I've talked to people who are in the praise band and they are a paid position because it's a mega church, right? Like, well, I shouldn't assume, obviously, like, apparently Hillsong wasn't really paying its musicians. But anyway but this is like, You know, that's a big thing. And so absolutely. [00:27:00] And so I do realize that I had that I was building a new community. However, While I wasn't afraid of like losing my community, I was really afraid of judgment from people back home But really it's because I was judging myself like if I can go back and really look at the fears I had during like what I call my my rubble years, which is like I had knocked down a whole bunch of shit But I had no idea how to rebuild it yet. So I was just kind of like Existing in the atomic wasteland of my previous belief system I think a lot of it was anything I was putting on other people was just stuff that I was fearful of, but reinforced by people saying certain things to me, you know,, like, for example, I went back for a birth or a birthday party. a wedding of my best friend. And the next morning I was like, hey, I have to tell you something. And she goes, Oh my God, did you make that? Did you make out with my brother? And I was like, [00:28:00] no, you know, it was stuff like that. Or like, I went back for, I was like, Katherine: yeah, Mattie: exactly. It's terrible. Although to her credit, I was going to tell her that me and one of our dearest best friends shared mail. I think that detail is probably important just for this context. That we had shared a really sweet goodnight kiss. Like that's what I was gonna tell her so it did have to do with a boy But no, I didn't make out with your brother. And then another time I remember After I had started the blog Going home for like a bridal shower, and we were all We were all going out for, like, drinks, whatever, afterwards and some of the guys, like, drunkenly, like, kind of cornered me, and they were all like, so you think you can tell my, you know, future wife it's okay to do other positions than missionary? Stuff like that. Yeah. Right? It [00:29:00] was this, it was this kind of, or like, I remember one time I went home and for a 10 year reunion and one of my classmates who I'd like been in kindergarten with, he grabbed my butt during a group photo. And I turned around and I looked at him and I was like, what was that? And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't me to me. And he was like, we know what you write on the internet, Maddie Jo. Oh my god. So it was things like that, that like, you know, these assumptions that just because I was openly talking about sex, that that meant I was sexualized. Yes. Right? Right. And things like that. I was really, that happened pretty frequently. I think that's a Katherine: genuine fear for a lot of women. Who are having these journeys, and I will include myself in that, of like, but I'm not going to talk about it publicly because of, it'll put me in danger to some extent of [00:30:00] like, you become this target, like, you're not allowed to just be sexually free without being a ho. Like, you're not allowed to have sex without being a ho. Like, it's like one or the other. Same double standard rules that have always existed. They just take different forms. Right. Mattie: Is, you're absolutely right. The danger component of it is very true. And then You know, and it happened in New York too, but I started to use it as kind of a sifter. Like if I told guys about my blog and their immediate thought was like, oh, she's DTF. I was like, yeah, you're not it. Like you have, you have shrunken me to a 2D vagina, you know, like, And Katherine: that is a, a perk of that authenticity Mattie: is, Katherine: and I mean, and that's one of the reasons why people won't do it, cause it's like, well guys won't like me. That is actually true. It Mattie: is actually true. You can, but you can totally see like okay, they're either going to be more interested because they think you're just [00:31:00] ready to have sex with anything. Or they're not going to be interested because they think you're ready to have sex with anything, right? Like air quotes. Or the third option is they're like, oh, that's really cool. Can you tell me more about your Tell me more about it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the only okay response. So what you're doing is you're sifting through what I call the misogynist daywalkers, right? Like these are the ones you don't want. And that lets you know it very quickly. So yeah, to the geographical thing, like I did experience some of that, but the, the removal of it and, oh, here's another thing. I was really afraid my parents weren't going to love me anymore. Like, I know that sounds insane. It doesn't sound insane. Cause I think a lot of people feel that way, but like, I was afraid if I told my parents, like, I, I don't, cause I had, I had realized that so much of like their. Not affirmation, but like approval of me or what I thought anyway, was around my behavior of being the purity princess of [00:32:00] following the rules of being a, a, a Christ like, you know, young woman. And like, what if I wasn't a zealot for any of that anymore? And I was, I was suddenly very zealous for. The opposite of that. I was really afraid my parents were going to disown me. They didn't because luckily they were going through something similar because some iffy stuff was going on at our church that you know, they were like, dude, why are church people like this? You know? So I was calling out a lot of the hypocrisy publicly, but they were experiencing it personally. And so that was again, very lucky, but yeah, being removed from it gave me, I always say like, The greatest gift that New York City gave me was anonymity. Because no one here gave a fuck who I was fucking, when I was fucking, or if I said the word fucking, right? No one was like tone policing me. And I got to just, you know, they say you find out who you really are [00:33:00] when no one's watching. Yeah, absolutely. And what a gift. Yeah, you know to just be Just being able to make decisions without The wrath of the spiritual side eye you're going to get the second you go in for a coffee Katherine: Yeah, Mattie: you know like that was great so I really do and just the ability to be around people from all different walks of life I mean my first apartment in new york city. This is part of the rich people part. I'm miraculously ended up in a very You specific living situation where I lived in like the penthouse apartment of this fancy building you know, leaning lady, like Upper West Side. And it was four of us and one of the guys who lived there, his family used to own the entire building. So that's how he had this apartment. And that I could live there for so inexpensively. But anyways, he was born and raised in New York City, went to like the best boy's school in the country. Jewish, right? And then the other girl that was living with us was born and raised [00:34:00] between New York and India. I'm actually not sure where in India, I should have probably asked. And her family had like tea, a tea business in India, so they were very wealthy, right? And so that's why she was going back and forth between New York and India. And she went to like Harvard Law and Oxford for undergrad. She was Brilliant. And then the other girl was from Sweden and she was an economist and she was an atheist and like very feminist and you know, and I was like, we had more diversity in my apartment than all of Missouri, you know, so getting to hear their perspectives on things, specifically my roommate who owned the apartment was hysterical because he would call me out on things and, you know, like when I would be having these like equally yoked panic attacks, you know, he'd like kind of call me out on like, It's kind of weird. You're so concerned about, like, whether or not he's Mormon. Like, did he tell you he was Mormon? You know, like [00:35:00] so it was, yeah. And, and so that really, where if, if your whole world is just every other weekend, somebody else is getting engaged and you're going to their, like, dry wedding, like, yeah, obviously it's not a very expansive place to explore. Katherine: Yeah. Absolutely. You may already know this, but the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening. And now back to the show. Katherine: And I think for folks, because a lot of folks, especially like the demographic that I work with, not [00:36:00] a lot, but a percentage of folks when they, a lot of them were on staff in churches and experienced abuse and had to leave these churches and had to leave their livelihoods. And on often, it leads to a geographic. Change. Mattie: Yeah. Katherine: It can be so terrifying and so anxiety inducing. And so I think it's really helpful to hear this very expansive positive side of that, which was also what I experienced too. It's very traumatic to move. Mattie: It's Katherine: very traumatic to be transplanted into a world that is not familiar. That is 100 percent true. But the possibilities for what we can encounter. In these new spaces not a reason for difficult things that we go through. I never, I never want to justify the difficult things or prescribe, Oh, the Lord knew what he was doing. Right, right. But I think it can be just [00:37:00] this beautiful world that it can open for us if we kind of just roll with it. I'm just like, what happens? Mattie: Definitely. Definitely. I mean, like, I'm pretty sure Linda K. Klein even talks about that in her book, Pure, about how, like, even once she was at Sarah Lawrence, I think she, like, took a trip to Australia or something, and that was when it, like, really solidified for her, like, just being away. She was like, yeah, this is just, yeah. Katherine: Yeah, I highly recommend if that is accessible to people, and it's not for everyone, but to The country, get out of your space. Even in a healing season of just like getting out of your space can be so helpful to just not be surrounded by all of these things that are reminding you and, and as you experienced, like just having these things suppressed, like questions that you were having constantly suppressed and you weren't, you weren't in a space where you could ask those questions [00:38:00] and how just like getting out of the space, allowed opportunities. So that's just a suggestion for the audience. Yeah. Mattie: Well, and because I will say this, like, because in evangelical circles, there's such a culture of like accountability. I say with air quotes is like, I know from like watching my older sister kind of go through her own process of deconstruction and my book is actually dedicated to her. I mean like everybody and everybody's business. You know, like you cannot do a damn thing and then and on top of that, like if you are trying to make the decision, you know, like this actually feels really toxic. I'm not going to go to small group anymore. The way they come at you with like every and if you are not yet in a place where you know everything they're saying is bullshit because you have not yet experienced it. experience to the other side of deconstruction, where you really are like more free and you're happier and all of that, then like them coming at you with like, this is just you not wanting to feel convicted. [00:39:00] And this is you like stepping out of accountability in the Lord. This is, you know, like all of those, like, you're going to be like, Oh yeah, you're probably right. Like, you know, it's like, it's impossible. And that's why you have to separate yourself because it's honestly just like really it's manipulation and, and you need new friends and it's like really hard to make new friends when you're in the same place too. I think that's tough too. Katherine: Yeah. And that for forced vulnerability, which is very invasive and very bashing. And I think that that's another beautiful thing on the other side as well of like, we were, we were so responsible for like, you felt like responsible for your gay friends going to hell and, you know, like, and now it's like, Oh, I don't have to be responsible. I don't have to worry about what your belief system is and whether or not you're going to hell. I don't, I don't have to do that. Right. Which is great. Mattie: Right. Katherine: We have a wonderful time together [00:40:00] and I go home and sleep well. Mattie: And you don't have to treat your friends like a social, like like tally mark, right? Like, oh, did I share the bridge analogy with them? If I didn't. I probably don't love them, you know? Like, no, actually, not treating them like an experiment is probably more indicative of your love for them. I remember feeling that in my missions group, too. It's like, Jesus Christ, they'd come at me, I talk about this in my book so people can read more about it there, but they'd come at me with like, How many people did you share the gospel with this week? And I'm like, how many orgasms did you have this week? Probably that many, like, leave me alone. God damn. Katherine: And I would just be so mean. Mattie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I will say something I went through in my deconstruction to your point of like, these people are not, Like my problem again, one of the like mind fucks is that sorry, I should have asked if I can cuss. I clearly Katherine: can. I need to put that as a note in [00:41:00] the, in, in the calendar thing, because people ask me if it's okay. And I'm totally okay with it, but I was like, I should just Mattie: sorry. Cause I definitely have a potty mouth. But one thing that I really struggled with is, you know, the whole narrative around your behavior. Is or isn't leading people to Christ. So like when I was going through again, what I call like my rubble years, and I was like, always afraid that like, I couldn't just sin and peace, right? Like internally, every time I like had sex with a guy, I was like, Oh no, if anyone who used to know me as a Christian finds out I'm having sex outside of marriage, Then, what if they think it's okay for them to have sex outside of marriage and then they stop being a Christian and then I'm responsible for them going to hell. I don't really care what they do, I just want to do me. And I just like, couldn't. You know, like, just living my life all the time, I was like, afraid there was like, someone from my past lurking around the corner, like, [00:42:00] ready to not be a Christian too, just like me, even though I didn't know I wasn't a Christian for like, a long time, I didn't admit that to myself. But, yeah, I just remember feeling like, crap, so not only am I afraid I'm going to hell, I'm afraid anyone who is witnessing my behavior is also going to hell because of me. Katherine: That's a lot of pressure. It is! A lot of pressure, and it is unnecessary pressure. Yes. It's so much better. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things. You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash support. Katherine: In the time that we have left, I would love [00:43:00] to discuss so you said that you had this divine experience in a play. What role has art played in that? In your journey? Mattie: Oh, I love that question. Oh my gosh. It's played the, it's played such a big role. I, you know, little like, theater role double entendre. Yeah. I, when I first came to New York, I was, I was going to school. Well, okay. Sorry. Backtrack. . I feel like the biggest role that it has played in my life and particularly my spiritual life is that when you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, your life will always be great. Yeah. Like that doesn't mean that you're not going to have hard times. Like I was taken, I was in a movie right now that has 100 percent on Rotten Tomatoes and is number two in the country. My three scenes. Cut. [00:44:00] I am not in the movie. Like, it's not, it's a, like, it's not that it's not, you know, devastating at times and everything, but you know, I didn't know what I was doing when it came to pursuing theater professionally. I didn't know anything like there's a whole thing you're supposed to do if you're going to school for theater and do all the auditions and whatever. I didn't know any of that. All I knew is that I really liked to act. I was okay at singing. And if someone took some time, I could probably figure out dance. And so I just auditioned for two schools. I got into one for their BFA programs. So I just went to the one that I got into. And then even once I left that program, like I just kept, I started to do musical theater professionally or pursue it professionally in New York city. And even after four years, again, getting connected to myself and my, My feelings and everything. I just came to this point where I was like, this is [00:45:00] so hard. And because I'm Midwestern, I don't know if it's hard because it's supposed to be, like, everything takes hard work, or if it's hard because this just isn't the right path for me. And I would think about camp and I would try to think about the times where I really felt connected and I was like I'm not connected when I sing or when I dance. I am so in my head about hitting the notes and hitting the choreography. I can't even think about acting, which is the part I actually enjoy. Yeah. So I decided, you know what? I'm not going to pursue musical theater anymore for like a hot second and just try to act. For a year, I'm going to plant myself in New York City and I'm just going to pursue acting jobs and like see how it goes. And the pressure, like I was, I was, so much more successful at auditioning. I was booking like crazy. [00:46:00] I was having, I had far more success in that one year of pursuing, but of pursuing acting work than I had been in four years of musical theater. And yeah, I've just continued. So now I just do like on camera acting and like plays when they come up, but. And then same with writing. Like, I've always been a writer. I just never wrote publicly. And so when I started releasing my blogs in 2015, it wasn't because I thought I was a writer. I just did something that I found really, like, it was so enjoyable. And not always, right? Because I, I think Glennon Doyle has this, this quote that's like, I don't like writing. I like having written. You know, it's like the putting it together is like, Oh, sometimes it's really hard, but I really enjoyed the process of like, piecing together a story in a way that was engaging. And like, I just really, really loved it. And so I've always [00:47:00] followed those, that those impulses, like these sort of, I remember I had this moment, you know, it's dating this guy and he was like rich, whatever he was in finance. And he sort of had this like, promise of, a less hard life for me. Cause he would take care of the bills and da da da da da da. And so I was like, man, it would be nice to not be juggling like acting and 50 different babysitting jobs and just to live in like a shitty apartment. So I was talking to a mentor of mine and Oh, and there was also this promise of like going back to Germany. Not promise, but potential going back to Germany. Cause that's where he was from, whatever. So I was talking to this mentor of mine of like, okay, should I just like, you know, get a normal job and sort of like go on this track of like building a life with him and you know, going that way and she was like, well, why, why do you act Maddie Joe? Like, why do you want to act? And I just like looked at her and I said two things and I didn't even think about it. And I just said, [00:48:00] because I love it and I have to, and like following that impulse, like not even thinking of it, but being like, no, that's just my truth. Like, it sounds so cliche, but like, that's just my truth, you know? And then I had my mom and I was talking to her. She was like, you've worked so hard to create this whole life for yourself. And you're just going to move to Germany for this guy. Like, you know, so I did have some like you know, strong women in my ears. So that was good. But yeah, I think it's been the way. That I feel most connected to truth and my knowing and like, it's the thing that has kept me pursuing again to go back to the beginning, pursuing a life of authenticity over dogma or what is right quote unquote, right? What is logical even and that that's not to say that I'm not logical I am like I have a full time job that I also do with all of this other stuff But I just always have to go back to those things because I really believe those things being like acting and writing and the [00:49:00] belief that like I was designed with a certain skill set and with a passion to do it, so I need to do it, because I really believe that why, and this isn't to like diminish or belittle mental health, but I think the reason why we have a lot of mental health in our country is because we don't have a society or an economic system that allows people to explore the things they were actually meant to do. We, we have a society that celebrates a very specific You know, kind of financial success. And then like for me, I have a job. Katherine: Great. But not everyone does. Mattie: Not everyone is. We don't, we don't celebrate that. It takes all kinds. Right. And we decide what is worth what kind of money. So like, even though the guy trading, on wall street is doing nothing to better the world, literally nothing. Right? Like, he's just making rich people richer. Connecting a global economy, maybe. Like, maybe. It's [00:50:00] a stretch. But that motherfucker makes millions of dollars. The person stacking your shelves at Trader Joe's because it's a less whatever, like, skilled job? Not worth it. Unless we're in a pandemic and then they're considered an essential worker. Right? Like, It's just, I don't know so it's hard for people to pursue the things that they love in the capacity that I do, and we have lots of other systems in place that make it harder for other people from other incomes, , but but I do think that, like, if you don't do the thing you were looking for. Designed to do you will just keep finding ways to feel better, whether it's antidepressants or an addiction or, you know, whatever it is, avoidance until you just do that thing Katherine: exactly. And then you lay on the teaching and the Christianity. And the, how you're not supposed to have your own desires and they're supposed to be God's desires and we're [00:51:00] conditioned to fear our desires or to doubt them or mistrust them. It takes incredible amount of courage to say, I'm worth it and like my desires matter and these things that I want to do really matter and they're worth, they're worth taking that risk to pursue. And especially for women, I Mattie: think, especially for Katherine: women of, of where ours is always supposed to be subjugated to like a family, like having a family or a spouse or something like that. And and having to create that path is very, very challenging. What do you think, just as we're wrapping up, what are some things that you would share with folks who are Kind of on that same journey, either the deconstruction journey or just like pursuing, pursuing dreams [00:52:00] in the, in the aftermath of all of this toxic teaching that we got. Mattie: Yeah. Oh man. Well, one thing I wanted to say about like the, the desires thing, right? Two things is like, women aren't even allowed to desire An attractive person like we're not even allowed to say like, oh, I actually don't find this guy Very hot and so I don't want to be in a relationship with him because I am not attracted to him because we are always supposed to we are expected to always put like emotional connection above all right as if Me wanting to be attracted to my partner means that I don't also prioritize emotional connection, right? Like, these are the kinds of very nuanced ways that I had to pick apart narratives that I would come up against in a pursuit of following my desires. And then there's also, like, the worst thing to be as a woman, but also as an evangelical woman, for [00:53:00] sure, is selfish. It's because selfishness is a sin and we make selfish in those circles synonymous with like what do I say? Like a, a, a heartless bag of dicks. Like you're just so mean and you don't care about anybody else and you don't care how your actions affect anyone else. It's like, So it takes so much courage. Like I talked to women who have left marriages and whatever. And it's like, Oh my gosh, I huge kudos to them because that takes so much courage to just be like, this is not for me. And I actually didn't even choose this. I was just kind of like conditioned into it. And and to be selfish, it's not to be a heartless bag of dicks with zero empathy. To be selfish means that you prioritize yourself and if, if you're in a relationship, like if you can't even be good with yourself, you will not be good in your relationship, but we really vilified self focus, especially in evangelical circles, right? [00:54:00] What I would say to. You know, anyone in this deconstruction journey and like the pursuit of desire or dreams or whatever. I would say Trust trust the process It's not linear. And if you're going through it right now, there are So many resources when I was going through it. We didn't have words like purity culture or deconstruction or any of that So it felt very lonely, but now there are entire communities on my You On my website, I have a purity culture resource guide that in and of itself is going to be a really good start. And once you start clicking on some of these things on Instagram, the algorithm is going to know what you're looking for, and it's going to give you more of what you're looking for. So you can get communities, you can get books, you can get podcasts and then, yeah, just like, Get really good at sort of the personal development side of it, which is like self aware about what are your thoughts, identifying your thoughts, where are they coming from? [00:55:00] Because another masterful manipulation tool, the evangelical church knew about is neuro pathways. Your brain doesn't know the difference between a truth and a lie. It only knows what you tell it is the truth and what you tell it is a lie. So you actually have this amazing power as an individual to reconstruct what you believe is true and what you believe is a lie. And it takes work, right? It takes like, I call it like Jedi mind tricks, right? Like watch your thoughts. You got to grab your thoughts and then you got to decide, see where it's coming from, examine it, and then replace it with a new thought. And then before you know it, you really will have like a whole different brain chemistry happening. And you won't be so afraid of like going to hell if you don't do a morning Devo. But I think, I think don't underestimate the power of like the sort of like personal development of it all because you really are trying to change your brain and your truth. Oh, here's the other thing. You actually have a say in your [00:56:00] life. You are not actually at the whims of whether God is blessing you or punishing you. And that's where That's where that brain reconstruction happens because I, I cannot tell you how much better my life got when I learned that. And I, and I realized, oh my gosh, I really have been existing in this space. And I talk a lot about this in the book of like, everything I do is just a system of like punishment and reward. And now I have this, broader perspective and I actually have a say in my life and you actually have a say in your life. So and then yeah, if you keep putting off pursuing what you know, know you're called to do and it doesn't have to be big, right? Not everybody has to like, you know, have like go through a divorce and like become a van person. It can be as small as like, I really think I'm a writer. I'm going to take 15 minutes to write every day. It can be that, that. So yeah, I don't know if that was helpful or super blah, blah, blah, Katherine: but [00:57:00] absolutely no. And I think it's just helpful for folks to hear, especially because I feel like there's a lot of material about like the process of deconstruction and what's, you know, how to do it and I love opportunities to kind of talk about like. on the other side of it. Yes. After some of the mess has died down and some of the consternation has has settled a little bit. Right. Mattie: And beware of like the deconstruction movement being a little bit like, oh, we're just being zealous in a totally other way. Like it is becoming borderline dogmatic and some of it, you Katherine: know, it is. Yeah. Mattie: So there's no, there is no right way to do deconstruction. There is no, like you The hardest part of life is that there's, we have very little control and that most everything falls outside of a [00:58:00] category. And so the human design is to want to package everything pretty, pretty well. simply, but that's just not what being human is. And so your role is to, your job is to just develop tools like through the self help and through therapies and different modalities of how to navigate that, but how you navigate it is not a standard, you know? Katherine: Yep. Absolutely. And, and us by telling folks where they can find your, all of your things and follow you and prep to find your book. Mattie: So I do have a blog, so in the meantime, while you're waiting for the book to come out, which is September 10th, 2024 mark your calendars. I have an arsenal of amazing writing if I do say so of myself on my blog. So it's maddiejoecowsert. com. I'm sure it'll be in the show notes. Forward slash or backslash. I can't remember God, sex and rich people, the word. And or if you just Google Maddie Joe Cowsert. You'll find God, sex and rich [00:59:00] people. It's pretty high on my SEO. And then Instagram is at Maddie Joe Cowsert. So my name and subscribe to the blog because I'm making announcements there. But also it's just like, there's a lot there that I talk about dating. I talk about sex. I talk about faith. I talk about feminism. You know, so, and like what that even is and how it gets such a bad name or bad rap. And And I talk about sexual trauma therapy. I talk about my experience with sexual violence. And so there's a lot on there that you're not just going to get from this, like one hour podcast. And so I just encourage you to just go crazy and peruse. And most of them are like an eight minute read at most. And then my book is coming out, like I said, September 10th and we're not doing pre orders. So how we're doing it is just mark your calendars and buy the book on the day of. and leave a review you know, hopefully within like 20 days of it being out and an honest review. I won't ask you for a five star review, but an honest review because what that does is [01:00:00] as soon as a book goes live, the amount of like sales it has is really what matters. The pre sale thing is just if you're doing like your publisher wants to know how interested people are in your book. So I'm just like, whatever. Everybody just go buy it on the day. Mark your calendar, go buy it on the day. That is the biggest ask I could have from you. And then if you are interested in being part of my launch team, you can DM me and ask me about that, and I can send you, like, what that would entail. You would get an advanced manuscript, and then you would get, like, visuals of things to put on your social media, to kind of, like, shout it out. And, yeah, and then on my website, I have been on like a ton of other podcasts as well, so if you want to check out those, all the links are there yeah, but Instagram is really the most. I do have a Facebook page for God, Sex, and Rich People, but Instagram is, is the best. And we're going to be doing a launch, an in person launch as well. I'm going to try to stream it virtually because I also shot a pilot, a God, Sex, and Rich People pilot back in 2021, and I'm going to finally be airing that publicly. So, yeah, lots [01:01:00] happening. Thanks Katherine: Yeah, all right, everybody. I will put all the links in the show notes and keep an eye out for that book and all of the other things. Thanks so much. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes. I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

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