"To be determined by and for the people"
We are running Windows 1776 for our system of government and it's time for an update. [U]SA is a platform and movement to create a new vision for our country that we can truly be united around.
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Interview with Terry Bouricius, former politician and author of Democracy Without Politicians: Government By the People
I had the pleasure of meeting Terry briefly in Philadelphia last month in mid-June at the TED Founding Futures conference. He spoke there and also the next day at the Philadelphia Ethical Society about sortition and his new book, Democracy Without Politicians: Government By The People. I really appreciate Terry’s openness, authenticity, and frankness when he diagnosis the problem with elections. He also has a lot of credibility many of us don’t have seeing that he was an elected politician for two decades in Vermont. You can download a FREE copy of Terry’s book here (https://democracywithoutpoliticians.org) (or purchase it!). I think it’s awesome that a supporter of Terry’s helped make the epub/pdf version of this important work free!In this episode we discuss:
* Why elections produce oligarchy, not democracy — elections tend to select for for wealth, ego, and fundraising skill rather than wisdom or representativeness
* The ancient Greek roots of sortition — how Athenian democracy relied on lottery for nearly all governing bodies, with election reserved as “the oligarchic method”
* Terry’s “aha” moment — how an invitation to a British Columbia citizens assembly gave Terry the sense of witnessing true democracy
* The diversity argument — why a representative, randomly selected group consistently outperforms homogeneous groups of experts or politicians
* Deliberation vs. negotiation — and why what happens on the floor of Congress is neither
* “Multi-body sortition” — Terry’s proposed architecture for a lottery-based legislature, including how proposal-drafting and final-vote bodies should be kept separate
* The “peeling strategy” — Terry’s strategy for a gradual, domain-by-domain path from our current system toward one where sortition bodies handle real governance
I really enjoyed this conversation and hope you do as well. Feel free to leave comments below!
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15 Feb 2026
Interview with Leonora Camner, Executive Director of Sortition USA
In this episode of the Undetermined States of America podcast, I’m joined by Leonora Camner, Executive Director of Sortition USA (formerly Democracy Without Elections). Leonora was one of the very first people who pulled me into the world of sortition, citizens’ assemblies, and deliberative democracy and I'm very grateful to her for all the connections I've made through introductions she initiated.
In this episode, we start with Leonora’s path from housing organizing in Los Angeles to a deep disillusionment with how “community input” and electoral incentives can turn public life into a toxic tug-of-war—where shouting, fundraising, and political cover often matter more than facts, expertise, or the common good. From there, Leonora explains the “ray of light” moment: discovering lottery-based democracy as a real, serious alternative, and why randomness can actually reduce manipulation and restore legitimacy.
We also get into strategy of making sortition a movement: local chapters, model assemblies, and what it could look like to build an alternative civic culture people can genuinely identify with; something that doesn’t just critique the current system, but practices a better one. If you’ve felt like our politics is broken at the level of incentives and the core way in which our system is structured, I think this interview will resonate.This interview was recorded back in the late summer 2025 and Leonora has already been patient enough to forgive me for the long delay (a delay so long that the organization has since changed it's name since I interviewed her!). I am also honored to share that I am now serving on the board of Sorition USA! I enjoyed interviewing Leonora very much and I am looking forward to our future conversations and work together.
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1 Aug 2025
[U]SA Ep. 2 (Part 2/2): Nick Coccoma from Assemble America
Nick Coccoma from Assemble America explores sortition systems, examining their legitimacy, potential for egalitarian governance, and impact on cultural narratives surrounding democracy in this interview.
11 Jul 2025
[U]SA Ep. 2: Nick Coccoma from Assemble America (Part 1.)
Nick Coccoma, founder of Assemble America, discusses the history and concepts behind deliberative democracy and the sortition movement with Colin Steward, highlighting the potential for citizens' assemblies to revitalize democratic processes in this interview.
12 Apr 2025
[U]SA Podcast Ep. 1: Citizens Assemblies and Deliberative Democracy with Phil Lindsay from Bard's Hannah Arendt Center
Hello Founding Citizens!
I’m honored to finally be uploading the very first official [U]SA podcast with my very first guest: Phil Lindsay, Director of the Democracy Innovation Hub (https://hac.bard.edu/programs/democracy-innovation-hub/) via the Hannah Arendt Center at Bard College!
I met Phil early in the year after being connected to him through Leonora Camner, Executive Director of Democracy Without Elections (https://democracywithoutelections.org/). We met up at a board game cafe in Brooklyn where we both live and talked about our visions for deliberative democracy in the US.
In this podcast, we primarily discuss Phil’s work with ‘Citizens Assemblies’ and explore what deliberative democracy is and how it all relates to the vision behind Undetermined States of America.
This was a super fun interview and I know it’s not our last with Phil.
Enjoy and please leave comments! And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe at www.undetermined.us!
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16 Feb 2025
A video intro to [Undetermined] States of America
A video intro to [Undetermined] States of America
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