unSeminary Podcast

About unSeminary Podcast

stuff you wish they taught in seminary.

Publisher

Rich Birch

Category

business · religion & spirituality · religion & spirituality

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

3 Sept 2020

Latest episode

22 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

153 of 380 episodes have a transcript.

1. 

   22 Oct 2026TRANSCRIPT

   The People Quietly Drifting Out Your Back Door with Toni Nieuwhof

   Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Toni Nieuwhof, author, speaker, family law mediator, podcaster, and co-host of the Smart Family Podcast. Toni has spent much of her professional life helping people navigate difficult circumstances, and her own journey through pain, healing, and faith has shaped her latest project, Honest to God: Daring to Trust When You Don’t Understand. How does your church help people when God feels distant, silent, or even confusing? Are there people in your congregation quietly wrestling with suffering while everyone around them assumes they’re doing fine? Tune in as Toni shares why churches need to create safer spaces for honest questions, how community can shape the way people walk through suffering, and how her new book can help leaders support people in seasons of pain. Suffering often reveals what we’ve buried. // Toni describes her own long healing journey from growing up in a home marked by alcoholism, anger, and emotional disconnection. For years, she would have described her childhood as normal, but over time God began exposing defense mechanisms and unresolved pain. Healing took decades, reminding leaders that people may be carrying wounds they don’t yet understand—or may not even realize are shaping them. Lean toward God when life doesn’t make sense. // Honest to God was inspired in part by Moses’ response after Israel’s rebellion with the golden calf. Rather than pulling away from God in frustration, Moses leaned in and asked God to teach him His ways, remain present, and show His glory. Toni sees that posture as a powerful model for anyone facing suffering, confusion, or disappointment. Make room for multiple stories of suffering. // Toni invited a diverse group of contributors—such as Mark Batterson, Ann Voskamp, Jennie Lusko, John Ortberg, and others—to share vulnerable stories about what they discovered about God during difficult seasons. The book is organized around three themes: the ways of God, intimacy with God, and the glory of God. Each chapter explores what someone learned, experienced, or saw more clearly as they walked through suffering. Don’t assume you can see someone’s crisis. // People can become highly skilled at masking spiritual and emotional pain. Toni notes that someone may still attend church, serve, smile, and participate while privately wondering whether God is good, whether He has forgotten them, or whether He is even listening. Because those questions can feel too frightening or even sacrilegious to voice, people often distract themselves rather than confront them. Community can determine whether people lean in or drift away. // Toni believes one of the most important factors in how people navigate suffering is the quality of Christian community around them. Isolation can happen even inside a church or small group. Healthy communities create enough trust for people to remove their masks, ask hard questions, and tell the truth without immediately being corrected or pressured to put a positive spiritual spin on heartbreaking circumstances. Give your church language for grief and doubt. // Toni believes churches are often strong at celebrating transformation but less equipped to walk with people through prolonged suffering. To help leaders open those conversations, the project includes a four-week sermon series and group study guide. These resources are designed to help churches talk honestly about adversity, disappointment, trust, and God’s faithfulness without minimizing what people are experiencing. Let the project help beyond your church. // Toni and every contributor donated their time to the project, and 100% of the proceeds support young adult education through Compassion International and Convoy of Hope. Purchasing through the project’s website (https://www.honesttogodbook.com/) helps maximize the amount directed toward those causes while also providing churches access to bulk ordering and additional healing resources. To learn more about Toni Nieuwhof, purchase Honest to God: Daring to Trust When You Don’t Understand, or explore resources for churches and small groups, visit honesttoGodbook.com (https://www.honesttogodbook.com/). Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/unseminary-podcast/id686033943?mt=2), they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint (https://TouchPointSoftware.com/demo) As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way. TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo (http://touchpointsoftware.com/demo). Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Listen, come here, come in close, you listen in because today’s conversation is fantastic and you are going to love where we are going. Rich Birch — Today I’ve got like a real world friend, somebody that I know outside of the internet and I want you to know them better. But not only that, they’ve got this incredible project that is going to help you and your church. And I ultimately think actually people you know who attend your church and maybe even beyond your church, this is going to be a fantastic conversation. Rich Birch — Honored to have my friend, Toni Nieuwhof with us. She is an author, a speaker, a family law mediator, and has spent decades of her professional life practicing law where she’s combining her professional careers also as a pharmacist, and a lawyer in leadership roles for hospitals. She’s incredibly talented, and and she’s also a podcaster, and she’s an author. She does a lot of different things. Toni, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here. Toni Nieuwhof — Oh, Rich, I am thrilled to be here. And yeah, it’s so great to have ah a good conversation with a friend anytime, but especially with you. So thanks for having me on. Rich Birch — That’s so kind of you. It’s always a little bit funny when I have people that I know in the real world on the podcast because, you know, there’s like this conversation we’re having and it’s mediated through this technology, which is kind of funny, but hopefully it’ll it’ll it’ll be a positive I know it’ll be a positive conversation for people that are listening in. Rich Birch — But I kind of gave a little bit of your professional background. You have this incredible, when I talk about you, I’m coming clean. When I talk about you behind your back, Toni, I say, you know, I have this friend, Toni, who’s done everything. She’s pharmacist, lawyer, you know, all that stuff I rattle off, law mediator, podcaster, author. It’s like you’re constantly reinventing yourself in the best way possible. So to what’s the through line in that and how what led you to to here to where you are today? Kind of author, you know, podcaster. Talk to me about that. Toni Nieuwhof — Oh, sometimes, Rich, I’d have to say that, you know, I feel a bit schizophrenic when we talk about all the different hats. I’ve had such a winding path of a of a career. As far as a through line, I feel like God’s been very gracious to me. I’ve felt like I went through those various changes in my professional life, wondering where this is all going. But in every context, feeling like, okay, I have an assignment right now and I can serve these people this way. Toni Nieuwhof — And so I think the through line is that I’ve really I feel like God has led me through a um a personal healing journey of my own, um where I’ve actually been privileged to serve people along the way with the tools that he’s put in my hands. But at this stage in my professional life, I know a thing or two about what it is to um to suffer trauma and what it is to heal and find God in the midst of it. And that process has just left me with so much gratitude and also very motivated to just be a part of conversations um that focus on how God truly does show up ah in the journey of suffering. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And we’re, you know, friends, you’re getting a hint of where we’re headed today. And I’m, this thing is gonna be a good conversation for us to to wrestle through and think about that. What stood out to me there is you talked about, you know, your own personal healing journey, you know, that this has been, you know, as you look back in your in in your life, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. Talk to me about, in your own life, how the kind of intersection of suffering, trauma, doubt, faith—How does how of all those kind of weave together for you in your own life? Toni Nieuwhof — Yeah, well, I would um just to give a little bit of context for people briefly. Rich Birch — Sure. Yes. Perfect. Toni Nieuwhof — I grew up in a middle class home that from the outside would have looked pretty normal, but from the inside um felt very chaotic. So my my dad was a binge drinker and alcoholic. He also was functional. So he he worked and he was a manager and had a a good position himself professionally. But in my home life, there was a lot of emotional disconnection and anger and you know. And so growing up in that kind of environment, um you know there are consequences that really were off my radar. I didn’t understand them at all. Rich Birch — Right. Toni Nieuwhof — But I started off, you know, went, decided that I wanted to become a professional, studied pharmacy, wasn’t finished there, studied law, um was very blessed to meet my husband, Carey, at law school. And um and then ah over all these years, God, I think just slowly, you know, I know this is kind of a cliche, but we talk about, you know, God peels the the onion from the outer layers inward. Toni Nieuwhof — And I think slowly God just started revealing to me that um I had very strong defense mechanisms set up. I would have in my early 20s said that I had a normal, like happy childhood. And by the time I was in my mid 30s, I knew from my emotional climate that something was really wrong. And and then it’s been a couple of decades of unpacking that. Toni Nieuwhof — So it’s and I was I’m as surprised as anyone that, you know, that healing journey extended like into my 50s, until I was like almost 60. And to me, that sounds incredible. But hey, maybe I’m a slow learner. Rich Birch — No, it’s true. I think, I you know, as someone, it takes time, right, to unpack our entire life and to try to understand, hey, what is it that God’s been doing? What is the story that that he’s been writing? What’s my part in that? How does all all that fit together? And, you know, it’s amazing. I know I have found as I as I get older, even reflecting on my own parents, it like it wasn’t until recently you realized, oh, those are like humans, like they’re like their own people in their own story, right? Toni Nieuwhof — Yes. Rich Birch — Like you’re trying to figure out what is it, you know, we’re doing life together. Rich Birch — And so now you’ve actually put together a book, a resource that I’m going to just jump up to. I’d love to talk about this more directly. It’s it’s it’s I think it’s going to be super helpful for people. And it’s around this topic. Why don’t you tell us about that? Talk to us about, you know, this is called “Honest to God: Daring to Trust When You Don’t Understand”. Tell me more about that. Toni Nieuwhof — Well, this this book had its genesis over a couple of years ago when I had actually been inspired by how Moses responded in a conversation with God after Moses was well, after he had discovered that his people rebelled, that that rebellion with the golden calf while Moses was up solidifying the the covenant with God on the mountain. Toni Nieuwhof — And so Moses in his distress had this conversation with God. And to me, I thought that that was that was fascinating, that. Because in in times of distress, I mean, let’s look at Moses. He was um charged with a huge responsibility, leading people who were rebellious. He had gone through a great amount of suffering himself already and was there again. And it would be easy for Moses to blame God. You know, why did you put me in this position? Why have you brought me through all this? He’d just gone through 40 days, 40 days and nights of fasting. Toni Nieuwhof — And yet he leans in and he asks God to teach me your ways and to let us stay in your presence, despite all the rebellion, and to show me your glory. Like Moses is leaning in. Toni Nieuwhof — And so, you know, I just found that in in and of itself compelling. And I was planning to someday, you know, I’m going to write a book, but it’s going to, I want this to be, you know, a lot of a collection of really heartfelt stories. It’s going to take me five to 10 years to write this book. Toni Nieuwhof — And then I just think it was a ah nudge from the Holy Spirit. And I think that the Spirit said, why don’t you do this together with other people? You know. And it’s not going to take five to 10 years. And also the picture of unity, you know that we could as a group do this. And I thought, oh, this is like so this is an idea that’s so out there. How could it ever work? It’ll only work with you, God. Rich Birch — Yes. Amazing. Toni Nieuwhof — And so, so anyway, that’s how it, that was the the genesis. And then a whole group of very generous people said yes. So here we are. Rich Birch — Yeah, this is amazing. This to me, I remember, I don’t know, it was maybe 18 months ago when we were talking and you were telling me about this. And that as it was kind of coming together. I was like, wow, that is so cool that, you know, you’ve got this kind of multiplicity of voices, this great cloud of witnesses that are, you know, pulling this conversation together. Unpack that a little bit more. Rich Birch — How has that steered the project? How has that kind of influenced the project? I would imagine having different voices, you know, lean in on this particular topic actually gives it a certain quality that is just incredible because we’re seeing, you know, a similar issue from multiple perspectives. But talk talk me through what does that look like as you’ve actually been, you know, pulling this this group together? Toni Nieuwhof — Well, sometimes it it is like herding cats, but the but going through the process overall has has been a joy. And it’s and I’ve also personally loved my role as the general editor in this project, just having such a close-up view at of all these stories. Toni Nieuwhof — So it’s, you know, it’s been a lot of open-handed prayer to work with people on what they felt they could write about, what they wanted to, you know, what they what messages they wanted to convey and where they wanted them to land in the structure of the book, you know, whether they’re talking about God’s ways or intimacy with God or the present or or sorry the the glory of God, you know, those are the three parts of the book. Toni Nieuwhof — And it’s all centered around what what did they personally discover during their time of suffering? What was the gift that God had for them? Was it that they learned something more about his ways? Was it that they ended up feeling closer to God and had a deeper sense of intimacy? Or did they actually see something more of God’s glory through that time of personal suffering? Toni Nieuwhof — So, yeah, it’s been a real journey of, honestly, I feel like I’ve been totally blessed to walk through this journey. But it certainly you know has its challenges when you’re working with a group of people and a group of people who are so who have such full lives. like This is part of the incredible part of it from my perspective. Like we’ve got Mark Batterson and Ann Voskamp and Jennie Lusko and Amy Groeschel and Tara Lee Cobble. I mean, all kinds of people who have lots going on in their lives. Rich Birch — Yeah. Lots of other things going on. Toni Nieuwhof — And and yet they they took the time to um you know sit down and put words to paper and um very generously offer a vulnerable story or perspective. Rich Birch — Well, and yeah, and the thing, I think that’s amazing. Like so just if you were to list all the people who were involved in this project, just getting them together is incredible. But even more pointedly, I think it’s amazing that you’ve been able to work with these friends of yours to have a what I think is a conversation that I don’t know that maybe it’s just the stream of church life that I’m in. We just don’t talk about suffering. We don’t talk about these moments. We don’t talk about, you know, the dark night of the soul and all this stuff. It just isn’t, we’re very focused—which I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing—we’re focused on the good news. Jesus transformed and, you know, the bad stuff in my life into good. That is like, that’s one thing. But you you’ve pulled 25-ish people together and said, hey, let’s talk about that part of our life that’s maybe the most tender. Rich Birch — And it really is almost like, hey, like crisis of faith kind of stuff. And you’ve said that people have faced this at some point. And, you know, this this crisis of faith doesn’t need to be this big, dramatic thing. It could be more of a slow burn. Rich Birch — As you’ve been unpacking this, either in your own life, through these conversations, just as you’ve been pulling this together, maybe talk that that part of it through a little bit more. What what it, because I think our people could be experiencing this and we’re just not aware of it. Toni Nieuwhof — Yeah, it’s not always obvious from the outside. You know, I think, like, I’ve gone through personal crises before, andI know, pretty skilled, like, to my own detriment, at hiding and masking what’s actually going on, so that most people, you know, would have no idea. Toni Nieuwhof — And I think the, um yeah, one thing that united us as a group when when I started sending out these invitations, we didn’t know where the title was going to land. We didn’t even know exactly where the book structure was going to land. But basically, I described it as a you know ah book a book that would be helpful for somebody who feels like they’re at that point of disillusionment. Like dealing with the crisis, but God feels near. Sorry, God feels far. Like you want to draw near, but God feels far. God feels silent. Maybe even as a couple of our authors describe, you know, maybe even God feels cruel, like according to what they’re facing. Toni Nieuwhof — And and so, you know, you as a church leader, you might not see this happening because um if people are like me, they’re doing their best to not let people see what’s going on and and not see the crisis. Toni Nieuwhof — And maybe, you know, sometimes those questions about God and God’s faithfulness and is he good and has he forgotten me or… you know, am I am I just, is God indifferent? You know, there’s like, we wonder those things sometimes when we look at our circumstances and are going through a crisis, but it may be easier to distract ourselves and focus on something else than to actually focus on this spiritual question. Toni Nieuwhof — And some people will lean in and pursue God, but some people will just, they’ll just lean away because the the question feels too scary or it feels too sacrilegious and they or they don’t want to be judged by their church peers. Toni Nieuwhof — And so it’s a very strong temptation to work more. Or maybe work out more. Or you know focus on something else, double down on the focus on the kids. There are all kinds of ways that people can just drift away because the, you know, the the crisis feels like it’s too hot to handle. Rich Birch — Well, I think you’ve, yeah, you’ve, I’d love to double click on that a little bit more. There’s, I can see how, and I’ve seen this as a pastor, you can see, right, where a crisis comes or people are, you know, they go through a moment of suffering and there are or moments or or not even moments, it’s like they’re in suffering. Rich Birch — I don’t even know how to talk about it. It’s funny how like the right language for this thing, which is why I’m, you know, I think everybody should read your book. But the, when they’re in that, they’re experiencing that there is, yeah I’ve seen that where I’m like, man, there’s some people who it’s like their faith blossoms under that pressure. It’s like they, something happens inside of them and like a beautiful thing comes out the other end. And it’s not it’s not beautiful like ah like a meadow beautiful. It’s like beautiful like the highlands of Scotland beautiful. Like it’s like that’s rugged and it you know it it looks different, but it’s there is something beautiful about that. Rich Birch — Or there’s folks like you say that just kind of drift out the back door and we don’t really notice. And and then, you know, I’ve sadly, I have that experience as a leader where it’s like, you know, two years later, I’d be like, I wonder what ever happened to that person. Like, I haven’t seen them in a long time. Rich Birch — What makes the difference, you think, between those two responses? What do you think is, you know, some factors or something that, you know, kind of determines which way you think people end up going on that? And obviously, I know it’s not binary, but we’re picking kind of a binary approach to try to help us think that through. Toni Nieuwhof — Sure. Rich Birch — What do you think makes the difference? Toni Nieuwhof — Well, I mean, there’re there are so many different influences You know, I think ah it’s multifaceted, but in my mind, one of the huge factors is the the community, like the Christian community around that person. How connected are they or how disconnected? Rich Birch — Yep. Toni Nieuwhof — If you’re relatively isolated a Christian, and and and let’s say this, isolation can happen in a setting that still looks church-based. So, you know, if if they’re in a small group, is the small group functional and healthy? Rich Birch — Right. Toni Nieuwhof — You know, is the small group leader trained and will, you know, recognize and engage somebody? Like, is there um is there a setting that feels safe enough that everybody can take their masks off and be real? Because it’s, I think, you know, one of the factors that would make it worse is being surrounded by a culture that doesn’t feel safe. And that the person may even feel like they have to slide away from or separate themselves from because they feel like they just can’t belong in the tension, like the internal tension is too great. Toni Nieuwhof — Isolation, however it happens, lack of community. I think those are huge factors. And then in the in the community setting, how are people responding? Like, are they it is it truly a safe place? Can people be real with their questions and still and it still feels safe? Toni Nieuwhof — Do people experience the the love in terms of the hands and feet of Jesus and not a lot of pressure, which can be very subtle, pressure to to spiritualize, like put a positive spiritual spin on a situation that’s actually heartbreaking? Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Isolation. Rob Meter, you’re the co-host of the Smart Family Podcast. I remember him talking about he’s an incredible pediatric psychiatrist for folks that don’t know. And I remember we were talking once about isolation and and this was post-COVID. And, you know, he said in his kind of joking sort of profound way, said, well, we’ve learned that having a bunch of kids isolated for a long period of time is not good for their mental health. Rich Birch — And, you know, we’ve seen that, right? That, at you know, that this kind of isolation are… and our culture pushes towards that, it feels like that is just accelerating, like the, yeah, there’s just so many places that are pushing us apart. Well, this is so good. Rich Birch — Well, let’s talk a little bit. We’ll take a step back from the content and talk more of it kind of as as a little bit of a resource. So personally, when I saw this, I heard you talking about this. I thought, man, this is the kind of thing that would be a great tool for churches to use. Rich Birch — And it’s the kind of thing that I think could help leaders have a conversation with people in their church that maybe is difficult to have and they’re not having. So walk us through how a church, how a pastor, maybe a small groups ministry, how could they use this as a tool in their church? What were you kind of thinking about how they could implement, you know, use this with people to help them wrestle through these issues? Toni Nieuwhof — Well, when we put the book together, we kind of struggled with the idea of, you know, how do you create and a journey for people when you have so many different voices? And where we’ve landed with it, I think this is where it was meant to go. It’s like an anthology. Toni Nieuwhof — So the the book is um structured in three parts, you know, where people have learned more about the ways of God. So the three parts are the ways, and intimacy with God, and the glory of God as the, you know, the beautiful gift that God had on the other side of the author’s suffering. Toni Nieuwhof — And so as a tool, um we do encourage people to pay attention to how they feel and what they need. So if you feel like you need more of the presence of God, then go to that part of the book and read those stories. If you feel like you need the inspiration that, you know, there is that that, you know, God has glory and I want to see more of it. And if it comes by way of suffering, well then so be it. You know, if you need that, then sample a story from the glory section of the book. Toni Nieuwhof — So each of these stories is, you know, we’re we’re telling vulnerable stories. A couple of the things are are devotions as well. And so each one, each chapter is focused around one author’s story. And then it’s followed by a question for reflection. And we encourage people to go through the book, not quickly. You can go through it slowly. You can take it one story at a time, but but then sit and pause and ask the Holy Spirit to bring to mind whatever the author was raising and how it lands personally. Toni Nieuwhof — So we really are praying that every reader will find one gem in the book, that they’ll find one and one thing that they feel was written specifically for them. Rich Birch — That’s good. Toni Nieuwhof — And because I realized that, you know, this is a whole collection of voices. It’s a whole collection of stories. The situations people talk about, it’s far ranging. But our prayer is that everybody finds one thing that hits so close to the heart that they want to go back to it. And they want to go back to it. And maybe that’s an anchor for them in ah in a time of suffering. And overall, of course, we’re praying that it does help them grow closer to God. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Yeah, I could see this as the kind of thing, man, I should have like 10 copies of this book. And, ah you know, in my office, and I would could be interacting with folks where I’m like, Hey, you know what, this like this might be, you know, obviously, it’s not the like, you know you just chuck it out. Rich Birch — But it’s like in conversation, here’s a book I could, you know, here’s something for you to to check out, you know, here’s a here’s a resource that could help you as you’re as we’re thinking about these issues together as we’re praying through those, I think that could be, you know, a great way to use it. I think it could be a great tool in small groups. Rich Birch — But you’ve also built a four-week sermon series and study guide that also goes with that. Can you talk to us about that? How how does that fit in? I think this is a this and gift that you’ve put this together. What how are you what’s your vision for that? Kind of paint a picture of how that could work. Toni Nieuwhof — Yeah. So, you know, as a as a church leader, you have your finger on the pulse of the congregation. And there are times where a community faces collective grief. Something has happened and people are reeling. And I mean, this book would be perfect for that context where you know that that people are suffering. And this book is a ah tool that doubles down on that journey of suffering and how is it that we can grow closer. Toni Nieuwhof — And it not just in terms of strategies. Rich Birch — Right. Toni Nieuwhof — Like there are actually many practical strategies in the book… Rich Birch — Sure. Toni Nieuwhof — …that emerge through so many different voices. But it’s also the camaraderie of, ah you know, me too. Like I was in a place, I, wondered where God was, or I felt forgotten, or I wondered if if if God was just cruel. But this is how I went through that journey, and this is how I rebuilt trust. Toni Nieuwhof — And so the the sermon series addresses addresses adversity. How is it that we can, you know, if we if we run from God, we may be running from the goodness of, I mean, if we run from adversity, we may be running from the goodness of God. Toni Nieuwhof — And, um you know, and even if you, even if the people around you are not, God is relentlessly faithful. Toni Nieuwhof — So we we have those kinds of messages. But honestly, Rich, you know, when when the topic of sermon series was raised by one of my fellow authors on the book, um I was very reticent. I just thought, oh, you know, I don’t know. Who who am I to write this series? But I mean, it is true that I have preached. So you know it’s not a new thing for me. And I have somebody close to me who’s pretty skilled at writing sermons. Rich Birch — Yes. Whoever that would be. Toni Nieuwhof — So so I had an expert editor, whoever that would be. Rich Birch — And he’s also willing to give you feedback. He’s he’s good at that. Toni Nieuwhof — Yeah, he’s the best. So, you know, so as I thought about it, you know, one of my authors, fellow authors, who’s also a pastor said, you really should do this. And as we we held an earlier an early readers group earlier in the year, and and we got comments like the church really needs this book, because sometimes we’re not the best at dealing with grief. Rich Birch — Oh, 100%. Toni Nieuwhof — Like there’s all kinds of things that we’re great at. And I think the church is, is you know, the the light of the world and is the the place where community is formed. Absolutely. But, you know, we don’t always ah do the best job at supporting people through really tough times of suffering. Toni Nieuwhof — And so, yeah, this sermon series is is meant to help open those conversations. And as far as a personal experience goes, every person who reads the book has, you know, will get the feeling that they’ve got 25 or 25 people around them saying, yeah, me too. And this is what it looked like for me. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Toni Nieuwhof — Yes, it it comes with ah ah with a group study guide as well. So so each sermon has, I think, 10 questions that go along with it so that small groups can follow along with the series if that’s how your church is structured. Rich Birch — So good. That’s fantastic. And I feel like we’re burying the lead here on this whole thing, but I wanted to highlight, you’ve structured kind of the the way the book works on the back end in an interesting way. So ultimately, this is to support a couple organizations. Talk us through that. How does how is that? That’s kind of a cool piece of this story as well. Talk me through what that looks like. Toni Nieuwhof — This is a part I’m so excited about, Rich. Thanks for asking. So each of our, each of the authors was super generous financially as well. Nobody is is taking any proceeds from the book, myself included. We all donated our time and our efforts free of charge. Of course, that doesn’t apply to the the publisher who took this on. Rich Birch — Right. Toni Nieuwhof — You know, so we have some publishing expenses, but um but we’re really working and doing our best to make this a very cost-effective process. Toni Nieuwhof — And 100% of the proceeds are going to support the cause of young young adult education and… Rich Birch — So good. Toni Nieuwhof — …through two charities that I absolutely love, Compassion International and Convoy of Hope. Rich Birch — So good. Toni Nieuwhof — And we’ve seen firsthand how you know all of these all of the children who get sponsored and go through their education programs, you know once they reach the age of 18-ish, around that age, a portion of them will go on to receive resources for studies. But in our experience, in my personal experience, like all these kids have dreams and we really want to add fuel to what can be accomplished if a whole group of under-resourced young adults can all of a sudden just receive the resources they need to become educated. Rich Birch — So good. Toni Nieuwhof — It’s it’s just such a potential lift for these individuals, their families and their communities. And I am I’m I’m so deeply grateful that all of the authors were 100% board with this. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah, I think to me, I think that’s such a cool part of this whole story is it’s like, you know, we’re talking about so things of huge consequence. I think it’s going to be super helpful for people in our churches. I think, you know, we we all can think quickly of folks that are you know maybe in the midst of some suffering and you know we’re trying to find ways to help them. Rich Birch — And I think that’s like a gift that you’ve given gathering these folks together. And then this is like the accelerant on top of that, that it’s like, hey, when you if we were to do this as a church, if we were to you know if we were to buy copies of these books or if we were to have some available, that sort of thing, it’s then, it’s like a triple win, you know which is amazing. Rich Birch — So you know that’s that’s fantastic. This has been just a great conversation. I want to make sure we get people to go to honesttoGodbook.com. When they arrive there, this is the best place for people to to pick up the book. They can get it in and like the other places. Who knows where those other places are that people can buy books. Toni Nieuwhof — Who knows? Rich Birch — But the best place, and the reason why I say that, is because we want to see the, you know, kind of the largest portion of it end up with compassion and with convoy. And if what I understand is you’ve is you’ve organized it in a way. So that’s kind of the best way to do that. Rich Birch — Talk us through when we were to land—it’s a fantastic site—when we were land at honesttoGodbook.com, what are a couple of things there that might see? Obviously, a chance to buy books, but what what else is on that that page to help them with this process? Toni Nieuwhof — Yes. So ah we’ll have a tap for a tab for individual per um purchases. um There’s also a place for pastors or church churches to go if they’re interested in placing a bulk order. Rich Birch — This is great. Toni Nieuwhof — And there’s there’s also additional resources… Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Toni Nieuwhof — …that support the the healing journey. So yeah, it’s, you know, Rich, you mentioned going to the website. I really want to underline that. If people buy through the website, it avoids us giving about five extra dollars to to that retailer we don’t need not name. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Toni Nieuwhof — And that and that it converts that $5 to profits that we can support the cause with. Rich Birch — A hundred percent. Toni Nieuwhof — So we would be very, very appreciative of people going through the website. Rich Birch — Yeah, this is great. So that’s honesttoGodbook.com, which I am shocked that you got that, that name. That’s a great domain. Toni Nieuwhof — Me too. No, I am shocked as well because there are actually other books titled Honest to God. Rich Birch — Right. Toni Nieuwhof — But it was just such a fitting and compelling title and we were united around it. Rich Birch — Yes. Toni Nieuwhof — So we we went with it anyway and figured that somehow we’ll we’ll be able to get the message out there that that this is the book that you’re looking for. Rich Birch — No, it’s so great. Well, Toni, you are a gift to many. And I think the fact that you’ve, this has been a labor, how long this has been couple years, you’ve been working on this project, year and a half, maybe it’s just been a year. I feel like this has been a journey for a while to get to this point. And, you know, what a gift that is. Rich Birch — And the fact that, ah you know, we kind of exposed at the end, you’re, you’re just donating your time here, you’re just trying to help people. Trying to you know give back is is amazing. And so I just want to publicly honor you for that. I think this is, it’s going to be a gift for the people who are going to read this and feel like you say, they’ve got this group of 25 people around them that are like, hey, I’ve been there too. I understand. Rich Birch — You know it’s like the the the book version of the side hug saying, hey, you know, it let me tell you a little bit of my story. But then also the fact that you’re, you know, this this kind of triple win of of helping Compassion International and Convoy of Hope. And ah this is fantastic. So thank you for your leadership. Any final words just as we wrap up today’s conversation? Is there any last things you’d like to leave with us? Toni Nieuwhof — Well, I just thank everyone for listening and considering this. And Rich, I really want to thank you for what you do. What you do to equip churches and leaders just has such an impact and I am I’m I’m just always inspired by what you do, Rich. So thank you. Rich Birch — That’s kind. Toni Nieuwhof — Thank you for your ministry and your love for the Lord. Rich Birch — That’s such a kindy thing to say. Again, friends, we want to send you over to honesttoGodbook.com. This one I do not mind pushing big time. So honesttoGodbook.com. Drop by there. Toni, thanks so much. You can come back anytime. There’s very few people I’ve said that to. Toni Nieuwhof is one of them. So come back anytime, Toni. Really appreciate you and your leadership. Thanks so much. Toni Nieuwhof — Oh, thank you. Love this conversation. It was a pleasure.

2. 

   15 Oct 2026TRANSCRIPT

   150-Year-Old Church Adds a Zero to Its Vision. The Question That Changed First Orlando

   Host Rich Birch interviews Trey Hildebrant, Danny de Armas, and David Loveless from First Orlando about their church's bold vision for multiplication and launching new gospel expressions.

3. 

   8 Oct 2026TRANSCRIPT

   The Problem Your Church Can Feel but Can’t Name with Gavin Adams

   Host Rich Birch interviews Dr. Gavin Adams, author and ministry consultant, about identifying and resolving organizational design issues that hinder church mission and growth.

Who has been a guest on unSeminary Podcast

Names identified in recent episode analyses. Showing up to five guests.

• Trey Hildebrant
• Danny de Armas
• David Loveless
• Gavin Adams
• Adam Weber

Reach and audience

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Apple Podcasts (US)

4.7 / 5

112 ratings

Spotify

5.0 / 5

7 ratings

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Guest appearances

Books guests

Based on episode analysis; this does not confirm that the show is currently accepting guests.

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