We DO Mind

About We DO Mind

Mind your decisions with more science. Each week we go through a different trend, cut through the noise to offer science based clarity. deborahheiserphd.substack.com (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast)

Publisher

Hosted by Dr. Deborah Heiser and Dr. Bruce Y. Lee

Category

health & fitness · science

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

15 Nov 2025

Latest episode

12 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

16 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   12 Oct 2026

   Solomaxxing

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2. 

   5 Oct 2026

   Meet Cute

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3. 

   17 Aug 2026

   Kinda chic

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4. 

   14 Aug 2026

   August Theory.

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5. 

   9 Jul 2026

   Aura Farming

   (00:00:00): Yeah, so we’re talking about aura farming. (00:00:02): Yeah, we’re talking about aura farming. (00:00:04): And a lot of people are engaged in aura farming. (00:00:06): And it’s kind of been around a while, but, you know, people don’t realize that they’re doing it. (00:00:13): So tell us. (00:00:14): So when you talk about farming, (00:00:15): are you talking about planting things in the ground, (00:00:18): growing tomatoes, (00:00:20): that type of stuff? (00:00:21): Farming, but not planting a vegetable. (00:00:23): Is aura a vegetable that you’re talking about? (00:00:24): No. (00:00:25): No, it is not. (00:00:26): No. (00:00:27): What is an aura? (00:00:27): No. (00:00:28): An aura is kind of a vibe or a way that you are expressing yourself. (00:00:34): And most of us want to have a positive aura, right? (00:00:37): One that people think positively about us. (00:00:39): And so we try to do things that allow people to, (00:00:44): where we can express ourselves and people will feel good about us in certain ways. (00:00:50): And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. (00:00:53): So you can get points for that. (00:00:55): So farming is you’re trying to increase your aura. (00:00:59): Yeah, you’re trying to cultivate a bigger, better aura, a more positive aura. (00:01:04): There’s something behind this that we’ve talked about in two other episodes and (00:01:09): that is authenticity. (00:01:10): Okay. (00:01:11): So you’re really trying to cultivate that in a way that makes it feel really (00:01:15): natural that you’re expressing your true self without having to put effort into it. (00:01:20): There’s an effortlessness to it. (00:01:22): You’re trying to create this cool like (00:01:24): Yeah, I got it easy. (00:01:26): Yeah, I do cool things. (00:01:28): I get all my stuff from Goodwill. (00:01:31): I have social impact or I can toss something into the garbage can without even looking. (00:01:37): I can do all these things in my life that seem effortless and that gives me a better aura. (00:01:46): So I saw that an example or like the king of aura was Michael Jackson. (00:01:55): Yeah Some of us said that I mean of course There’s no official king But Right But (00:01:59): He wasn’t just the king of pop He would many times At the beginning of his (00:02:04): Performances Would just kind of Just stand there Or just arrives from There was (00:02:09): like a Super Bowl Halftime performance When he He rose up In the middle of the (00:02:14): stage And then just kind of Stood there for a while Yeah And then that was Cool (00:02:22): That doesn’t work for Most people Mm-hmm (00:02:24): But he had that aura. (00:02:25): He was able to do that. (00:02:27): That was something that looked effortless for him. (00:02:29): Yeah. (00:02:30): Yeah. (00:02:30): Like if you were to like stand up at a restaurant and just go like this and not say anything. (00:02:36): Yeah. (00:02:37): That probably would not be so. (00:02:38): Now you’d be a weirdo. (00:02:39): Yeah. (00:02:40): So but also you have to be able to carry that off and some can and some can’t. (00:02:45): But that was a part of them. (00:02:46): Right. (00:02:47): And it might be expected or interesting from him. (00:02:50): But if I were to get up on a stage and give a talk (00:02:53): And Just Stand There For Two Minutes It Would Have The Same Reaction It Would Be (00:02:57): Kind Of Cringe That Would Be A Negative So The Opposite Of Creating An Aura Is (00:03:03): Cringe It Could Be One Of Them Yeah Unless You Want To Try Exactly Or Try Hard You (00:03:09): Know We’ve All Seen The Try Hard Somebody That’s Really Trying Really Hard To Do (00:03:14): Something That Would Seem Really Cool And It’s Just Not Working Yeah (00:03:18): Like maybe just in there and try to throw something into the garbage can and you (00:03:23): just completely miss. (00:03:24): Yeah. (00:03:24): Hey, look at me, look at me. (00:03:26): Or giving the same party trick over and over again when you go someplace. (00:03:31): Reusing things all the time, just trying to look cool with it. (00:03:34): Or sitting on your phone and you’re really looking at the weather and in fact, (00:03:39): you know, (00:03:39): you’re not doing anything mysterious, (00:03:41): but you’re trying to look mysterious or important in something that you’re doing. (00:03:45): Looking at the weather is a problem. (00:03:46): Yeah. (00:03:47): if you’re trying to look mysterious. (00:03:49): Okay. (00:03:50): But if I’m just trying to look at the weather. (00:03:52): Then you’re, there’s nothing to do with aura farming. (00:03:54): Okay. (00:03:55): All right. (00:03:57): So, but you can, so you can overdo it, right? (00:04:01): Yes. (00:04:02): Yes. (00:04:02): Okay. (00:04:03): So, tell me how you would successfully aura farm. (00:04:08): Being authentic Doing something that you’re able to do That’s pretty effortless Say (00:04:13): you are really pretty effortless In doing something that has to do with social (00:04:18): justice Or something that you’re really interested in It’s different than bragging (00:04:25): about something I’m just going to go do this because I enjoy doing it I like to (00:04:29): shop at Goodwill I’m going to go do that I like to donate my time I like to (00:04:33): volunteer I like to do all of these things (00:04:36): You’re going to do it without bragging. (00:04:38): It’s if you’re saying every time you go someplace, hey, I did this. (00:04:42): Hey, look at me. (00:04:43): Notice me. (00:04:44): Did you see that I did that? (00:04:46): That’s different. (00:04:47): So for the most part, (00:04:49): you can be doing things that are very effortless, (00:04:52): that are part of your authentic self that you really enjoy. (00:04:55): And that’s a part of the positive aspects of aura farming. (00:04:59): So I think aura farming also hit a surge when there was this video of (00:05:06): um these boats in Indonesia right yeah there’s a there’s a kid in front of the boat (00:05:12): just sitting standing at the front of the boat and the boat’s like moving and you (00:05:19): know normally you’d be like holding off for dear life yeah but the kid’s just sort (00:05:23): of standing there and gesturing (00:05:25): Yeah, (00:05:25): he was dancing to the music and effortlessly doing it without even looking like he (00:05:31): was going to lose his balance or anything. (00:05:33): It was unbelievable. (00:05:34): So that became a symbol of aura farming because that’s actually what he’s supposed to be doing. (00:05:43): And that’s what he’s obviously good at doing. (00:05:47): And he didn’t do it because it’s something unnatural. (00:05:52): He didn’t do it because... (00:05:54): He wanted to get clout. (00:05:58): He just did it because that’s what he does. (00:06:01): And that’s actually part of the whole culture of those boat races. (00:06:07): So it became effortless. (00:06:10): Well, it looks effortless. (00:06:11): I’m sure it takes a lot of effort. (00:06:13): But it looked natural. (00:06:17): Well, (00:06:17): he’d done it so much that it became, (00:06:20): you know, (00:06:20): effortless for him in a way or enough that it looked effortless. (00:06:24): It’s kind of like when you watch gymnastics and you’re watching the Olympics and (00:06:28): you say, (00:06:29): wow, (00:06:29): that looks beautiful. (00:06:30): It almost looks easy. (00:06:32): It looks effortless. (00:06:33): Yeah. (00:06:33): They’re able to carry that off Yeah And so many other things if you become an (00:06:38): expert in something it does look effortless Yeah But if you see somebody else (00:06:43): trying to do that or do something like that or bragging about that it’s when that’s (00:06:48): when there’s a red flag Okay So you should be looking for something that you (00:06:52): naturally would naturally do Yeah And you do it off enough that it becomes (00:06:58): effortless Okay (00:07:00): Yeah, and it can also be how you feel about things. (00:07:03): Like, there are a lot of people who really do like to do things like (00:07:07): Get involved civically or do things like that. (00:07:11): It’s when you’re posing and saying that you’re into it and you’re not really doing (00:07:14): it or you’re not into it that it doesn’t look right. (00:07:16): But yeah, we all naturally are good at things. (00:07:19): We all naturally enjoy things. (00:07:22): But there’s a risk for young people who are in that identity stage who are trying (00:07:26): to figure out who they are and they want to get clout from others. (00:07:30): They start to (00:07:31): I don’t have to think about it because I don’t have to think here’s the sushi and (00:08:00): Where does it go? (00:08:01): Exactly It actually goes through my mouth Right So it’s very effortless Very true (00:08:07): Yeah Yeah And you’re like that with avocado toast Avocado toast A little more (00:08:12): effort Because you actually have to take the toast Put the avocado on toast And (00:08:18): then you eat it Absolutely So yeah But you’re talking about things like that Where (00:08:23): you are naturally good at that You know what? (00:08:27): You could be (00:08:28): You could be naturally good at eating healthy, right? (00:08:31): And that could be something. (00:08:33): But if you’re posing for that, that wouldn’t be so good. (00:08:36): So there, (00:08:37): as with anything, (00:08:39): there are people who are trying to do this, (00:08:44): but they’re trying too hard. (00:08:45): So what are some examples of people trying too hard that becomes cringe? (00:08:51): They’re trying too hard to orify. (00:08:53): It’s not something that they really, (00:08:56): it’s either something that they might be really good at it, (00:08:58): but you’re saying, (00:08:59): look at me, (00:08:59): look at me. (00:09:00): You’re not just doing it because you want to do it. (00:09:03): You want people to see you doing it. (00:09:05): So most of us do things that we enjoy and we don’t care if people see us doing it or not. (00:09:09): You don’t care if somebody sees you eating sushi or you’re alone eating sushi. (00:09:13): But if you were saying, look at me eating my sushi. (00:09:18): Very giving of you. (00:09:19): Yes. (00:09:20): If you were saying, (00:09:22): I need to take a picture of this sushi that I’m eating, (00:09:26): and then I’m going to go ahead and show everybody that I just did that so that they (00:09:31): will see that I’m a healthy eater. (00:09:32): Yep, here. (00:09:33): That would be quite good. (00:09:34): Take that, yes. (00:09:36): So that’s it. (00:09:37): Okay. (00:09:37): Give me that back. (00:09:39): No. (00:09:40): No? (00:09:41): I’m trying to create an aura that I’m giving you the pillow. (00:09:45): Yes. (00:09:46): So this gesture isn’t always working. (00:09:50): It can seem empty. (00:09:51): So I heard also there’s people who see it. (00:09:56): People who will do something over and over again. (00:10:03): Like they might tell the same story, do the same card trick. (00:10:08): Even within the same party, they’ll just go around and repeat it over and over again. (00:10:12): And it’s cool the first time around, (00:10:14): but when you realize that they’re doing it over and over again with different (00:10:19): people, (00:10:21): then you realize they might be trying too hard, (00:10:24): right? (00:10:25): Yeah, (00:10:25): it’s that person that sees that they get a laugh or they get a positive reaction (00:10:30): from somebody. (00:10:31): So they repeat it over and over again. (00:10:34): Like this. (00:10:35): The kind gesture. (00:10:36): Thank you, Bruce. (00:10:38): Yes So that is and we all know that person that has done that we might have done it (00:10:46): ourselves you know maybe you’re feeling why thank you thank you we might be feeling (00:10:55): insecure when we go someplace so when we see something positive a positive reaction (00:10:59): from somebody we’ll do it over and over again say that joke over and over again (00:11:03): that sort of thing (00:11:06): When we’re looking to build a positive aura for ourselves, (00:11:11): we’re often farming for things that will do that. (00:11:16): It’s when we get negative points for it when we’re actually doing some of those (00:11:21): things over and over again or looking for attention. (00:11:24): It’s not because we’re authentically interested in it. (00:11:27): It’s because we’re seeking external validation for it. (00:11:30): Mm-hmm. (00:11:31): And, you know, I’ll be honest with you, we’ve all done that. (00:11:34): So, (00:11:36): you know, (00:11:36): this is not calling out people and saying, (00:11:38): hey, (00:11:39): if you’ve done this or you do this, (00:11:41): there’s something negative about you. (00:11:43): We’ve all been there and done that. (00:11:45): We meaning you and everyone else. (00:11:47): Not you. (00:11:48): Not me. (00:11:48): Everyone but you. (00:11:49): Everyone but you. (00:11:50): Exactly. (00:11:51): So... (00:11:53): But that’s something that if you’re aware of it, (00:11:56): it’s easier to stop yourself from saying the same story 17 times at a party. (00:12:01): Yeah. (00:12:04): One of the examples was of somebody doing a trick, (00:12:06): like an actual aprobatic trick over and over again on stage, (00:12:11): you know, (00:12:11): a performer. (00:12:12): And that that was something that started to look kind of cringe. (00:12:16): The person was doing backflips. (00:12:17): I don’t want to say the person’s name because I actually think the person’s super talented. (00:12:21): But that ended up becoming a meme of negativity with regard to that person doing (00:12:27): that backflip over and over again. (00:12:29): That it seemed like an attention grab, even though the person was effortlessly doing it. (00:12:34): I see. (00:12:34): Now I’m curious of who this person is. (00:12:37): Should I say it? (00:12:40): Oh, why not? (00:12:40): Benson Boone. (00:12:42): So he’s known for doing the backflips in his performances. (00:12:46): And so he was doing too many of them. (00:12:48): Too many backflips? (00:12:49): Yeah. (00:12:49): Okay. (00:12:51): So even though it was effortless, it seemed to be something that was an attention grab. (00:12:56): And so there’s this fine line between how much do you do something before it’s, (00:13:01): you know, (00:13:01): that you’re seeking external validation versus you’re just doing it because you (00:13:05): effortlessly enjoy it. (00:13:08): You would do it no matter what. (00:13:09): How do you know a backslip is a tension grabber? (00:13:13): Well, I guess if you’re on stage and you’re performing, then it might be necessary. (00:13:18): Maybe if you’re in Cirque du Soleil or just if you’re in a restaurant. (00:13:23): Yeah, right? (00:13:24): Yeah. (00:13:25): Yeah. (00:13:25): Because who doesn’t do that? (00:13:27): Yeah. (00:13:28): So yeah, so oral farming is a big term these days. (00:13:32): It is. (00:13:32): And so basically you, it’s, it can be fine, right, to do it. (00:13:38): Absolutely. (00:13:39): Yeah. (00:13:40): You know, (00:13:40): I actually think it’s not a bad idea to be really, (00:13:42): I think it’s in some ways kind of good because we have seen so many negative things (00:13:46): that people are saying, (00:13:47): oh, (00:13:47): you know, (00:13:49): People are engaged in too many negative behaviors. (00:13:51): Well, (00:13:52): this is people getting excited and interested in doing things that they (00:13:56): authentically enjoy and that they enjoy. (00:13:59): that are often positive in the world, (00:14:02): you know, (00:14:02): like social things or doing social good or things that make the world a better (00:14:08): place. (00:14:09): So I love that we have this around. (00:14:11): It’s an opportunity, (00:14:13): especially for people who are in the identity phase of life to say, (00:14:17): wow, (00:14:17): I can focus on things that make me feel good and that are seen as good for the (00:14:25): world and others. (00:14:25): So I like it. (00:14:27): Excellent. (00:14:28): Yeah. (00:14:29): So, thanks for coming on today to do this once again. (00:14:35): This is Bruce Wiley. (00:14:37): He writes for Forbes and for Psychology Today, (00:14:40): and he also writes on Substack, (00:14:43): Minded by Science. (00:14:44): I’m Deborah Heiser, (00:14:45): and I also write for Substack on The Right Side of 40 and for Psychology Today, (00:14:51): The Right Side of 40. (00:14:52): So, if you want to check out our writing, check us out there. (00:14:56): And you can also find us on YouTube. (00:15:03): All right, take care.Thank you to everyone who tuned into my live video! Join me for my next live video in the app. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

6. 

   2 Jul 2026

   Kittenfishing

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7. 

   18 Jun 2026

   Ghostlighting

   Have you heard of Ghostlighting? It’s like ghosting and gaslighting together. Dr. Bruce Y. Lee and I talk about ghostlighting and what it looks like in personal and work life. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

8. 

   11 Jun 2026

   Live with Deborah Heiser and Bruce Lee

   See all of our writing on Psychology Today and Forbes directly on our site We Do Mind! (https://wedomind.floot.app/) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

9. 

   11 May 2026

   Mind over Chatter

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10. 

    28 Apr 2026

    Hoarding isn't just for "stuff"

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11. 

    27 Apr 2026

    Live with Deborah Heiser

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12. 

    20 Apr 2026

    Why is it so hard to navigate medical diagnoses ?

    (00:00:01): All right, we’re live. (00:00:03): So welcome. (00:00:05): Hey, Bruce, it’s good to see you. (00:00:07): Good to see you, Debbie. (00:00:09): So you and I have been talking and I have so many questions for you because you’re a physician. (00:00:17): You’re a physician scientist. (00:00:19): You are the go-to for so many people about questions about medicine and questions (00:00:26): about what to do when people Google all the questions that they have about all (00:00:31): kinds of medical issues that they’re experiencing. (00:00:34): So I hope that you don’t mind if I ask you a few questions today. (00:00:39): Sure, because everything on the internet is completely accurate and correct. (00:00:44): Yes, (00:00:44): you know, (00:00:45): that’s my first question for you is, (00:00:47): why is it so hard to navigate medical diagnoses? (00:00:50): Because, (00:00:50): like you said, (00:00:51): we have AI, (00:00:52): we have Google, (00:00:53): and we have so much information at our fingertips. (00:00:56): So why is it so hard? (00:00:59): Well, the problem is you have to look at where the information is coming from. (00:01:03): I mean, the internet is like one big... (00:01:06): Uh, it’s like a, uh, gigantic public restroom. (00:01:10): You know, (00:01:10): you really can basically, (00:01:12): uh, (00:01:12): I say like, (00:01:13): if you see something on the internet or anywhere in internet, (00:01:16): it could be the equivalent of following what you see written on a bathroom store (00:01:21): stall in a public restroom. (00:01:22): You don’t know who wrote it. (00:01:24): You don’t know where it’s coming from. (00:01:25): It may not be. (00:01:26): verified uh there’s lots of people talking about lots of different things uh you (00:01:31): know nowadays i i watched the other day there was a video about someone talking (00:01:36): about um uh like geopolitics and that person was like a fitness person so you know (00:01:45): you you (00:01:46): Just don’t know. (00:01:47): Everyone has their fingers out there. (00:01:49): So you’ve got to be careful. (00:01:51): And then when you’re dealing with your health, there may not be do-overs, right? (00:01:56): So once you do something with your health, you may not be able to... Again, it’s not like... (00:02:03): getting uh information on i don’t know your sports team or getting information on a (00:02:12): tv show or movie you know okay if it’s wrong it’s wrong uh or fashion okay uh it (00:02:17): could be disastrous if it’s fashion but you can recover you can recover from i’m (00:02:22): living proof that you can recover from fashion disasters (00:02:26): So, (00:02:27): but, (00:02:28): but yeah, (00:02:28): health, (00:02:29): health mistakes can be very costly and costly also in terms of suffering and even (00:02:34): in your life. (00:02:36): Absolutely. (00:02:37): So, so we have all of these things at our fingertips. (00:02:41): It feels like we should be using these all the time because we use them for so many things. (00:02:46): So, (00:02:50): So it’s still hard for us, though. (00:02:51): So what is one thing that you look for when you’re navigating a new diagnosis? (00:02:57): Say you’re diagnosed with something. (00:02:59): What do you do? (00:03:00): Because I know I go to Google, or nowadays I go to AI, and I type in everything I know about it. (00:03:06): So what do you do, and what do you say we should do? (00:03:08): Well, (00:03:08): it’s interesting because we have to remember, (00:03:10): you know, (00:03:11): information is not necessarily—more information is not necessarily— (00:03:15): good right so more information is just more information and if it’s misleading (00:03:21): information it actually makes things worse uh so there is still you know a (00:03:27): significant role for people with expertise in an area that can help you digest the (00:03:32): information that’s out there um (00:03:35): One thing you have to be careful about if you do get some type of medical diagnosis. (00:03:40): Well, first of all, like where are you getting the medical diagnosis? (00:03:43): Right. (00:03:44): So there’s a difference between you are convinced that you have a problem. (00:03:51): I’ve seen this many times. (00:03:52): Right. (00:03:53): People will be like, oh, my goodness, I have such and such symptom. (00:03:58): Therefore, I must have. (00:04:01): Leprosy or something like that. (00:04:05): Well, okay, you’re self-diagnosing yourself, so you’ve got to be careful about that. (00:04:10): There can be many subtleties in diagnosis. (00:04:12): If you do have a symptom, (00:04:14): it’s better to get it checked out by a professional, (00:04:17): someone who can actually determine how best to diagnose it, (00:04:23): what kind of tests to take and those things like that, (00:04:26): or tests to get. (00:04:27): Let’s say I go. (00:04:28): Say I... (00:04:30): I Google something, right? (00:04:31): And I find out that I say, oh my gosh, all my symptoms, whatever. (00:04:35): And I go to the doctor and I decide I’m going to get an actual real diagnosis. (00:04:41): Now I get a diagnosis. (00:04:43): What do I do next? (00:04:45): Because it’s overwhelming. (00:04:47): When you get a diagnosis, then the next thing I want to do is run out and look it all up again. (00:04:53): What do you do next? (00:04:55): Well, (00:04:55): so, (00:04:56): uh, (00:04:56): so one of the first things that you want to make sure is when, (00:04:59): if you do get some type of medical diagnosis, (00:05:03): um, (00:05:03): that the person who’s giving you the diagnosis, (00:05:05): like a doctor, (00:05:07): uh, (00:05:07): for instance, (00:05:08): um, (00:05:09): Doesn’t just give you the diagnosis and say, (00:05:13): oh, (00:05:13): you’ve got, (00:05:13): you know, (00:05:15): gigantic, (00:05:17): superior, (00:05:17): such and such, (00:05:19): such and such. (00:05:20): And then just say, have a good day. (00:05:22): Walks out the door and you’re done, right? (00:05:24): I mean, that can be, first of all, you’re like, okay, what does that mean? (00:05:29): Is that bad? (00:05:30): Is that good? (00:05:30): Or et cetera. (00:05:31): So you need to get the lowdown on what this actually means. (00:05:36): So how do you do that? (00:05:39): Let me ask this. (00:05:41): I know when I go in, I’m stunned if I get something. (00:05:46): I’m going to be stunned. (00:05:47): What do I do? (00:05:49): And who carries a pad and paper around with them? (00:05:51): And I don’t write notes in my phone. (00:05:54): So what do I do when I first get a diagnosis from a doctor and I’m in there and I’m stunned? (00:06:00): What do I do? (00:06:01): What do I say? (00:06:02): Yeah, so... (00:06:05): Of course, (00:06:05): the most experienced doctors and the best doctors will understand that you won’t be (00:06:10): able to digest all the information, (00:06:12): especially if it’s a significant diagnosis, (00:06:14): unexpected or significant diagnosis. (00:06:16): So you’ll see they’ll say things like, (00:06:18): okay, (00:06:19): I understand this might be a little surprising or stunning, (00:06:23): etc., (00:06:24): and they’ll tell you the information, (00:06:25): but they say, (00:06:26): I understand that if you have additional information, (00:06:28): you can always contact me, (00:06:30): or these are the resources. (00:06:31): They’ll give you the next possible steps. (00:06:34): Now, of course, the problem is not all health professionals, not all doctors are created equal. (00:06:40): It’s just like anything. (00:06:41): There is any profession, any role, there’s a range of people. (00:06:50): There are (00:06:51): Yeah. (00:06:52): Fabulous, very gifted athletes. (00:06:55): And then there are average athletes and then there are people who are not so great. (00:06:58): Same thing with musicians. (00:07:00): Same thing with teachers. (00:07:01): Same thing with every profession. (00:07:03): So, yes, that’s one thing. (00:07:05): You want to look for a doctor who will understand where you’re at and help you (00:07:13): understand your diagnosis. (00:07:15): Okay. (00:07:16): That being said, if in that situation... (00:07:20): the doctor doesn’t do that, (00:07:22): then you should tell the doctor, (00:07:24): you should say, (00:07:24): look, (00:07:26): all right, (00:07:26): I am just be honest. (00:07:27): I am a little surprised. (00:07:29): I’m not sure what this means. (00:07:30): I’m a little stunned, et cetera. (00:07:33): I do have some questions now or, or I’m not sure what to ask. (00:07:38): You, you be honest and also say, if more questions come up, what do I do? (00:07:43): Who do I contact? (00:07:45): Put the (00:07:46): the health professional on the spot. (00:07:48): They shouldn’t be able to kind of just leave and leave you with no, (00:07:51): no, (00:07:52): no resources with no recourse. (00:07:54): Yeah. (00:07:56): So, (00:07:56): and then if you, (00:07:58): and I’ve seen this before too, (00:07:59): like if you leave the actual office, (00:08:02): the actual room, (00:08:03): because that can be, (00:08:04): you know, (00:08:05): sometimes those rooms are confining and you’re like finally out in like a little (00:08:08): more fresh air in the waiting room, (00:08:10): you can ask the office, (00:08:12): say, (00:08:12): hey, (00:08:12): I have more questions. (00:08:13): Or if I have more questions, whom do I talk to? (00:08:17): How do I get in touch with the doctor or health professional? (00:08:20): If there’s no way of getting in touch with them, then you may have the wrong doctor. (00:08:24): You may have the wrong health professional. (00:08:26): You may have the wrong clinic setup because that’s (00:08:29): Not, (00:08:29): you know, (00:08:31): anyone who is experienced and understands this situation knows that, (00:08:36): like, (00:08:37): yeah, (00:08:37): you’re absolutely right. (00:08:38): You can’t have all the questions right then and there. (00:08:41): It’s like being put on the spot, right? (00:08:44): You must ask all the questions now or everything closes. (00:08:47): This isn’t jeopardy, right? (00:08:48): You won’t get up there and just say, tell me, you know, the question. (00:08:53): And then, no, it’s too late. (00:08:55): You know, I I’ll tell you, I don’t ever go in with questions. (00:08:58): I go in and I’m like, what? (00:08:59): And then I leave and I’m like, wait a second. (00:09:01): I have a ton of questions. (00:09:03): My husband goes in and he’s got a list like this, (00:09:05): you know, (00:09:06): like four feet long of all the questions. (00:09:08): He’s super amazing at that. (00:09:10): But I go in and it must be anxiety or something. (00:09:13): I go in and I am not able to do that. (00:09:15): So for people like me and even for my husband, who then has more questions after he leaves, I (00:09:23): What do you do next when you have more questions? (00:09:27): You leave and then you say, oh, I was too stunned. (00:09:30): I couldn’t ask any questions. (00:09:31): What do I do now? (00:09:33): And you’re sitting there. (00:09:34): The next thing you want to do is go to AI or go to Google. (00:09:38): So what do you say we should do? (00:09:40): Yeah, so I think everyone should just bring your husband to the... Bring my husband. (00:09:45): It might keep him a little busy. (00:09:47): You know, he might like go to maybe about a spouse. (00:09:50): He’s a great guy. (00:09:51): Yeah, yeah. (00:09:53): You know, so one is you have to understand how you might react. (00:09:58): So it’s helpful to have another person there if possible. (00:10:04): So if you do have a significant other, (00:10:06): a family member or something of that sort, (00:10:08): especially one that you know. (00:10:11): is like that, (00:10:11): that can basically, (00:10:13): uh, (00:10:14): quickly jump to questions and, (00:10:16): and, (00:10:16): you know, (00:10:16): listings and organize in that manner. (00:10:18): Uh, (00:10:19): you know, (00:10:19): someone who, (00:10:20): who, (00:10:21): who can cover sort of your blind spots because everyone has blind spots, (00:10:25): uh, (00:10:26): that can certainly help. (00:10:28): Um, there, you know, you, (00:10:30): Bring a pad and pencil to take notes and those things like that. (00:10:33): That’s another possibility. (00:10:35): So one, of course, is to have something or someone that can help. (00:10:40): And then also... (00:10:42): something that people may do is they’ll bring an outline. (00:10:45): They’ll bring an outline of their questions and those things like that. (00:10:47): Like you said, your husband does that. (00:10:51): I don’t. (00:10:51): But you can’t do it yourself. (00:10:53): You can try doing it. (00:10:54): And if you still can’t do it, you can get someone else to remind you or do it for you. (00:10:59): That can certainly help. (00:11:01): So, but even... (00:11:04): I have a question for you. (00:11:06): Sorry, (00:11:06): I didn’t mean to cut you off, (00:11:07): but I bet you wrote down because you bring questions everywhere, (00:11:12): right? (00:11:13): Yes, exactly. (00:11:14): What if you this allowed? (00:11:16): I don’t even know if it’s allowed, (00:11:17): but you know how you on your cell phone, (00:11:19): you have a record button and you can record conversations. (00:11:23): Is that allowed? (00:11:24): Because I wonder if I were able to play it back and even even I went one step (00:11:30): further and I played it back and I transcribed it and I could read it and even get (00:11:34): a summary. (00:11:35): That might be helpful to me. (00:11:37): Is that allowed? (00:11:39): So there are actually I’ve actually run into doctors who actually encourage that. (00:11:43): They’ll say, hey, record this, et cetera, blah, blah, blah. (00:11:46): But don’t assume that that’s going to be the case with all doctors and all health (00:11:50): professionals. (00:11:51): So you can ask. (00:11:53): There might be reasons why they don’t want things recorded. (00:11:56): You know, (00:11:58): naturally, (00:11:58): some people feel uncomfortable talking and they kind of change their tone when they (00:12:02): feel like they’re being recorded and there’s things like that. (00:12:05): But you can ask. (00:12:06): And if they say yes... (00:12:09): By all means. (00:12:10): If they say, (00:12:11): no, (00:12:11): I’d rather not, (00:12:12): et cetera, (00:12:12): then what you can do is you say, (00:12:13): well, (00:12:14): here’s the challenge. (00:12:15): I’m not going to remember this stuff. (00:12:18): Or, you know, I may not ask the right word. (00:12:21): I’m feeling anxious or, you know, just be honest about how you feel. (00:12:26): And then they may be able to, like, bring in a scribe or someone like that. (00:12:30): So that’s another possibility. (00:12:32): They might have someone else who can take notes for you in the office. (00:12:37): So ask. (00:12:38): The thing that I want to emphasize is be yourself. (00:12:42): Be honest. (00:12:43): Be honest about how you feel about things. (00:12:47): I have seen situations, and I knew people like this. (00:12:50): For instance, (00:12:51): there’s someone that I knew, (00:12:53): but basically he would just talk big and all these things like that. (00:12:57): Once he got into the doctor’s office, (00:13:00): clam shut there’s a lot of people like that and basically wouldn’t ask anything and (00:13:06): and also would like um uh you know how there’s some folks that when they will go to (00:13:13): the doctor’s office they’ll like put on all their makeup and or whatever or try to (00:13:18): dress nicely they want to impress the doctor and i’m like (00:13:23): What do you think this relationship is? (00:13:29): You’re not interviewing for a job, right? (00:13:32): The doctor might say, oh, well, your blood pressure is good. (00:13:35): Your temperature is good. (00:13:36): Why don’t we hire you? (00:13:37): Now, they’re not going to say that. (00:13:39): They’re there to actually figure out what your situation is. (00:13:42): It’s best to just kind of go in. (00:13:44): Naturally, you don’t want to come in and say... (00:13:46): I haven’t showered in six days. (00:13:48): Can you exact? (00:13:49): Don’t do that no matter what. (00:13:51): Whether you take the doctor or not. (00:13:55): General hygiene is a good idea in general. (00:13:58): But when it comes to revealing your concerns or your worries or stuff like that, (00:14:05): those can be important clues to the doctor. (00:14:07): Yeah. (00:14:08): Of your situation. (00:14:10): But also it facilitates... (00:14:13): honest exchange. (00:14:14): Now, (00:14:14): actually, (00:14:15): I wrote about this, (00:14:18): not this specifically, (00:14:19): but I wrote about relationships in general for a funny bone to pick column that I (00:14:28): have for Psychology Today. (00:14:30): And I wrote that in general, (00:14:33): with most relationships, (00:14:34): most close relationships, (00:14:37): honesty and being frank (00:14:38): It’s important, right? (00:14:39): Because then the other person can understand what you need, (00:14:42): where you’re coming from, (00:14:43): and those things like that. (00:14:44): I would throw in the doctor-patient relationship into one of those close (00:14:49): relationships because that’s what you want to establish with the doctor. (00:14:52): So if you’re not frank about something, you’re not going to get the best diagnosis. (00:14:57): You’re not going to get the best treatment, and you’re not going to get the best care. (00:15:00): Yeah. (00:15:02): Yeah, that makes total sense. (00:15:04): Oh, (00:15:04): and the one thing I should add is if you’re worried about being embarrassed or (00:15:08): anything like that or startling the doc, (00:15:13): if a doc’s been around long enough, (00:15:15): they’ve seen all kinds of stuff, (00:15:17): all right? (00:15:19): The chances of the doc or being embarrassed by something you say or do is very, (00:15:25): very low because the stories that I could tell, (00:15:29): what you see in the emergency room, (00:15:31): in the clinic, (00:15:33): Usually, (00:15:33): like, (00:15:34): you can one-up that whatever, (00:15:36): like, (00:15:36): embarrassing thing you think you have, (00:15:41): most likely the doc has seen, (00:15:44): like, (00:15:44): dozens of things a lot more embarrassing. (00:15:47): So don’t worry about that. (00:15:50): Or make that a challenge that you have the thing that’s going to one-up all the others. (00:15:53): Try to be as embarrassing as possible. (00:15:56): Exactly. (00:15:57): In general, yes. (00:15:59): So what are some tips that you’d give to friends and family to support someone who (00:16:04): has just received a diagnosis? (00:16:06): Say someone goes to the doctor, (00:16:08): they get a diagnosis, (00:16:10): they come home, (00:16:11): and they tell their family and or friends that they have a diagnosis. (00:16:14): Okay. (00:16:15): Yes. (00:16:15): So here’s what not to do first. (00:16:18): Okay. (00:16:18): Don’t offer, like, your... (00:16:22): quote-unquote expert opinion. (00:16:24): I’ve seen this happen so many times. (00:16:26): Like, someone will, let’s say, oh, they’ve been diagnosed with such and such. (00:16:29): And I’ve seen these, (00:16:30): like, (00:16:30): group dynamics where, (00:16:31): like, (00:16:32): they’re surrounded by all these friends, (00:16:34): either, (00:16:34): like, (00:16:34): in real life or in, (00:16:35): like, (00:16:35): a Zoom meeting or something of that sort. (00:16:37): Yep. (00:16:38): And suddenly everyone has an opinion and they’re offering like bits and pieces of stuff. (00:16:43): And it can be completely out of context. (00:16:47): Like it can be about themselves or, you know, Oh yeah, I know someone, uh, uh, who has that. (00:16:52): And, uh, you know, and their head fell off, you know, something like some, you know, you, you, (00:16:57): people will always like give you the most, (00:17:00): either the extremely worst situation or an extremely best situations and may not (00:17:05): relate to like your diagnosis at all. (00:17:08): So it can be perilous. (00:17:10): So, uh, so the one thing that friends and family should do first is they should listen. (00:17:16): Okay. (00:17:17): Um, and they can say, (00:17:19): what can we do for you? (00:17:20): How can we help you? (00:17:21): What do you need from us? (00:17:23): Rather than immediately dive into like, (00:17:25): either let me offer you the 50,000 observations that I have about this or the (00:17:32): 50,000 things I read about in the, (00:17:33): in the, (00:17:34): on the internet about this, (00:17:35): or I heard on social media about this, (00:17:38): or let me problem solve it. (00:17:41): And, uh, you know, uh, this is what I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, (00:17:47): dunk you in hot water and cover you with Vicks Vapor Rub or something like that. (00:17:50): Hey, that’s a good idea. (00:17:52): Yeah, that can be a good idea, but in all situations. (00:17:58): And so I would say basically first you want to figure out, okay, how can we help you? (00:18:04): What can we do for you? (00:18:06): Then what you can do, (00:18:07): you know, (00:18:07): one of the things that you really can do is help facilitate connections with the (00:18:12): right experts, (00:18:14): right? (00:18:14): The right place, the right, et cetera. (00:18:17): Because... (00:18:18): So doing some of the research for them to help them? (00:18:21): To get them... Other doctors, second opinions. (00:18:26): Yeah, plugging with the right professionals. (00:18:30): Now, I want to contrast this with... (00:18:33): offering your own opinions about the situation versus plugging you in with the (00:18:37): right professionals so how does somebody know it is the right professional like i (00:18:41): don’t know that i trust everyone myself included to pick the right professional you (00:18:46): know how do we know who the right one is (00:18:50): Yeah, (00:18:50): so I remember I actually wrote about this in Forbes, (00:18:55): basically about, (00:18:57): oh, (00:18:57): I don’t know, (00:18:57): six, (00:18:57): seven years ago. (00:18:59): And how do you choose it? (00:19:00): And I started off by writing about, like, how you don’t choose the right professional. (00:19:06): One is be very careful about, like, rankings or rewards and all those things like that. (00:19:12): Really? (00:19:12): I’m surprised about that. (00:19:14): Why? (00:19:14): Yeah. (00:19:15): Well, (00:19:15): because a lot of those things are very political and there’s people who are (00:19:18): actively seeking out, (00:19:20): campaigning to try to get these things, (00:19:22): like be named the best such and such or what have you. (00:19:26): They may be really good or they may be the type of people who just like are (00:19:30): self-promoting, (00:19:31): self-marketing. (00:19:32): Oh, so some of those awards like Super Doc are political? (00:19:39): Yeah, because someone’s choosing them, right? (00:19:42): Sometimes you don’t know who’s choosing them. (00:19:44): So they’ll just say, they’ll give you a list. (00:19:46): Oh, these are the best thoughts. (00:19:47): You’re like, how did they come up with this? (00:19:49): Who’s choosing them? (00:19:51): Is it one person? (00:19:52): Is it a group of people? (00:19:52): Are they qualified? (00:19:55): Can they be lobbied? (00:19:56): Can someone give them gifts? (00:19:59): Who knows? (00:20:00): I don’t know how these are actually chosen. (00:20:02): And so what I’ve seen, (00:20:05): knowing the different docs that have gotten these awards, (00:20:07): in some cases, (00:20:08): it is deserved. (00:20:09): And in other cases, it’s like, (00:20:12): I’ve been around situations where we open a magazine and we’re like, (00:20:16): that person’s listed as best doc. (00:20:20): Yeah. (00:20:20): Like that. (00:20:21): So I would say don’t really rely on those awards things. (00:20:26): Sometimes actually the best docs are the ones who never get awards because they are (00:20:32): so focused on taking care of patients that (00:20:36): They are so focused on doing the right thing that they don’t promote themselves. (00:20:40): And they’re also very humble folks, et cetera. (00:20:43): So they don’t really seek this. (00:20:44): How would you know if that’s a good doc? (00:20:46): There’s no Yelp out there for doctors. (00:20:48): So unfortunately, (00:20:49): this is an unfortunate thing, (00:20:51): but you have to rely on people who are in the know. (00:20:55): So people who actually are in the system and know the different docs, know how they act, (00:21:05): and, and know how they act when no one’s watching. (00:21:08): So, (00:21:09): so many times you can get that information from nurses, (00:21:12): from people who, (00:21:13): who trained as, (00:21:15): uh, (00:21:15): you know, (00:21:16): medical students or residents, (00:21:18): interns or residents under these different docs, (00:21:21): uh, (00:21:22): Those folks are many times are the flies on the wall because when, (00:21:26): you know, (00:21:26): people that work at the front desk or the office people, (00:21:29): are those good? (00:21:29): You get a sense. (00:21:31): Now, (00:21:32): so you can get a sense from them on how kind the doc is, (00:21:36): how responsive the doc is, (00:21:38): et cetera. (00:21:39): You may not be able to get (00:21:41): information from them about the clinical knowledge or the skill when it comes to (00:21:49): procedures or surgeries or those things like that because they may not have the (00:21:53): background to judge that. (00:21:55): Uh, but it is similar in the sense that these are folks that are, have worked with the person. (00:22:00): Now, (00:22:00): of course, (00:22:01): sometimes if there’s someone who’s actively still working for a doc, (00:22:05): they may not want to say, (00:22:07): tell you the truth because, (00:22:08): you know, (00:22:09): so the best situation is, (00:22:11): are people who have seen many different docs, (00:22:14): aren’t necessarily beholden to those docs, (00:22:16): uh, (00:22:17): and can, (00:22:17): and can give you the sort of the, (00:22:19): the lowdown, (00:22:20): um, (00:22:21): So one of the things that I suggest is think about who you know that’s in the (00:22:28): profession and see if you can ask them. (00:22:31): And they might either be able to give you a direct answer or they might say, (00:22:36): hey, (00:22:36): I don’t know, (00:22:37): but here’s some folks that may know. (00:22:42): And then you basically see this in every profession. (00:22:45): Whatever profession you might be in, you tend to know (00:22:50): who the good and not so good people are. (00:22:55): You tend to know the quote-unquote dirt on folks, right? (00:22:59): Whatever profession you’re in, (00:23:00): like if you are in construction, (00:23:04): you probably know who are the good and the bad folks in construction. (00:23:11): If you play a certain sport, you happen to know more details of people who play that sport. (00:23:17): It’s the same situation. (00:23:19): So what if you also ask, I’ve asked this of my doctor. (00:23:24): I’ve had pretty good relationships with my physicians in the past just because, (00:23:28): you know, (00:23:28): you go year after year and you get to know them and you get more comfortable. (00:23:32): And I’ve asked in the past, who do you go to for these things? (00:23:37): And then I can find out because I’m thinking to myself, I know you’re a good doctor. (00:23:42): You must like to go to good doctors. (00:23:44): And that has been able to give me a sense. (00:23:46): I don’t know if all doctors give that information out, but (00:23:51): finding out who the doctors go to could be useful, too. (00:23:55): Yeah, it can’t hurt. (00:23:56): Like, (00:23:56): you know, (00:23:57): the worst that could happen is the doctor will say none of your business or (00:24:01): something like that. (00:24:03): But, you know... (00:24:06): I would say if you’re asking, hey... (00:24:08): Who would you go to? (00:24:10): And do you go to somebody for this? (00:24:12): You know, you don’t just put them on the stand, ask them a question. (00:24:15): But if you have a relationship with your primary care doctor, (00:24:19): you could ask that of them, (00:24:21): I think. (00:24:22): I would suggest not like grabbing a spotlight and saying, who do you go to? (00:24:26): For your last visit. (00:24:28): Yeah. (00:24:31): Answer me in 10 seconds. (00:24:34): Yeah. (00:24:34): But yeah, certainly. (00:24:35): Well, (00:24:36): you know, (00:24:37): that’s another reason why it’s important to have a good relationship with your (00:24:43): doctor. (00:24:44): Yeah. (00:24:44): You feel like you can have an honest conversation about almost anything. (00:24:49): And so that’s something that’s actually been de-emphasized in recent years, (00:24:56): in big part because you have these health systems that (00:25:01): that like are are treating um clinical care like assembly lines and say oh you know (00:25:10): you can just you know they’re all the same all the docs are the same all the health (00:25:13): care professionals are the same all the therapists are the same all the uh (00:25:18): psychologists are all the same etc and we all know that that’s just not the case (00:25:22): there is a huge difference in terms of people’s (00:25:26): experience, competence, interest, personality, capabilities, all those things. (00:25:34): Every single profession is like that. (00:25:38): You wouldn’t say, oh, okay, I’m constructing, I’m putting together the Olympic team. (00:25:45): We can use just any swimmer. (00:25:46): Right. (00:25:47): Just pick a swimmer, a bunch of swimmers and a bunch of, hey, you over there, you’re running. (00:25:52): Why don’t you join our Olympic track and field team? (00:25:56): Like, you’re very serious about that. (00:25:57): Or you’re talking about, you know, your favorite baseball team, favorite football team. (00:26:01): You know. (00:26:01): You know all the players and you know their strengths and weaknesses. (00:26:04): It’s the same situation. (00:26:06): There’s a big difference between if you get someone who’s really good and then (00:26:09): someone who is not so good or doesn’t care. (00:26:12): So you’ve got to choose these things wisely. (00:26:15): The problem also is many times people don’t choose until they really actually need (00:26:19): someone, (00:26:19): until an emergency happens. (00:26:20): And then it’s like you have less time to choose. (00:26:23): I mean, that makes sense. (00:26:24): You know, you don’t think, let me find all the people who I could possibly need. (00:26:31): if you don’t need something, (00:26:32): it usually is when it’s an emergency, (00:26:36): you know, (00:26:36): that you need somebody. (00:26:38): If you get a diagnosis of cancer, (00:26:39): if you get a diagnosis of, (00:26:41): you know, (00:26:42): some kind of an issue, (00:26:44): you know, (00:26:45): maybe with your bones or whatever it is, (00:26:47): you usually don’t plan for that. (00:26:50): It’s a hard thing to plan for. (00:26:52): That’s why it’s so hard, I think, for most of us because (00:26:57): We go to the doctor, get news, get a diagnosis. (00:27:00): Then we’re like, what? (00:27:01): What did I just hear? (00:27:02): And then we’re lost. (00:27:04): But there’s some good tools to use so that we can move forward if we do get diagnoses. (00:27:13): Well, I think that’s one of the reasons why you want to build relationships with a doctor. (00:27:19): Yeah. (00:27:20): in general uh that’s one of the reasons why why you know it’s encouraged that kind (00:27:24): of regular checkups at least you get to know one doctor like okay naturally you are (00:27:28): gonna say oh you know i really need to like get to know like all these 50 different (00:27:35): doctors you know just say you know you you don’t show up to like the proctologist (00:27:40): and say i don’t have a problem there right now but i want to get to know a (00:27:44): proctologist and just hang out with you that would be a little weird but um (00:27:49): But it’s good to know at least one doctor well in the healthcare system and that (00:27:53): doctor can then help you navigate. (00:27:56): So you want to say the similar things with like friends, right? (00:28:00): You don’t want to make, (00:28:01): you don’t want to wait until like a disaster happens and say, (00:28:04): oh, (00:28:05): like, (00:28:05): hmm, (00:28:06): I think I, (00:28:06): maybe I need some friends, (00:28:07): right? (00:28:08): So you don’t want to do that. (00:28:10): You know, that’s why we cultivate, well, I mean, it’s also fun to have friends and (00:28:15): You cultivate, (00:28:15): but it’s, (00:28:16): that’s another reason why you cultivate friendships throughout all the time. (00:28:21): So why not do this with a physician? (00:28:26): a relationship so that you know who to turn to just in case something happens. (00:28:31): You know, the other thing to keep in mind is it’s, you know, medical diagnoses aren’t scheduled. (00:28:37): They don’t, they don’t say, okay, I, you know, you can’t see this. (00:28:40): I’m going to have a medical diagnosis or crisis at this time. (00:28:45): They always come at times when you don’t expect it. (00:28:47): So you have to remember. (00:28:49): Yeah. (00:28:49): Yeah. (00:28:50): That’s so true. (00:28:52): What would you tell physicians? (00:28:56): You know, (00:28:57): anybody who’s seeing people, (00:29:00): if you could tell them anything about how to treat people who have just been given (00:29:05): a diagnosis, (00:29:07): what would you tell physicians? (00:29:11): Well, I would say one thing, you know, you have to have a relationship with the patient. (00:29:18): So it’s not one size fits all. (00:29:21): It’s not like, (00:29:22): okay, (00:29:22): here’s the template on how you talk to the patient and have that applied to (00:29:29): everyone. (00:29:30): I’ve seen that in some, like, you know, I’ve actually... (00:29:35): I saw this once in a course that was taught in medical school where they’re saying, (00:29:41): oh, (00:29:41): here’s a phrase that you should use. (00:29:44): That must be hard for you. (00:29:46): They basically said, you should say. (00:29:50): Empathy was manualized? (00:29:52): Exactly. (00:29:53): And then I remember. (00:29:54): That’s funny. (00:29:56): Someone who’s not, like empathy was not his strength. (00:30:00): And he goes, that must be hard for you. (00:30:05): Like the Terminator saying that. (00:30:09): And so, so that’s what you don’t want to do. (00:30:12): You don’t want to like, (00:30:14): uh, (00:30:15): pick up a manual and, (00:30:17): and have these cats phrases and those things like that because people aren’t (00:30:21): stupid, (00:30:22): right? (00:30:22): They can feel authenticity. (00:30:25): I, I, you know, I, I, I was, uh, seeing where, um, (00:30:30): And I think I’ve actually written about this where, (00:30:33): you know, (00:30:33): these days there’s a real craving or hunger for authenticity, (00:30:36): like on social media. (00:30:37): Like there’s so many people on social media who are like everything’s carefully (00:30:41): manicured and all that stuff like that. (00:30:42): So people can recognize that. (00:30:44): Well, they can recognize that with a doctor. (00:30:46): They can recognize when you’re being inauthentic. (00:30:50): Yeah. (00:30:52): first and foremost, (00:30:53): I would encourage health professionals, (00:30:54): you’ve got to get to know the patient, (00:30:56): right? (00:30:56): You’ve got to know what that patient’s personality is like, (00:31:01): what that patient’s strengths and blind spots, (00:31:06): worries, (00:31:07): and those things like that. (00:31:08): And that will allow you to be a little more equipped in terms of what to say or how to say. (00:31:15): Now, in absence of that, (00:31:17): In absence of that, (00:31:18): if you don’t know the patient that well, (00:31:20): or you may even know the patient well, (00:31:23): but the reactions can be surprising, (00:31:27): be honest. (00:31:28): Just say something like, okay, and just say, well, I know that... (00:31:39): many people might react in many different ways and it can be very unpredictable. (00:31:42): How are you feeling about this? (00:31:45): What can I do to help? (00:31:46): How can I support you in this? (00:31:49): You know, this, this, this must be challenging. (00:31:51): Um, (00:31:52): you know, (00:31:53): but say in an authentic way, (00:31:54): don’t say this must be challenging page two, (00:31:57): you know, (00:31:58): don’t, (00:31:58): don’t do that. (00:31:59): So, um, (00:32:01): So, yeah, nothing can replace, I think, authenticity. (00:32:06): Nothing can replace just being frank and open about how you’re actually feeling. (00:32:13): And then see what the patient says and see what the patient needs and be available. (00:32:20): I think that’s great advice. (00:32:22): You know, (00:32:22): there was some advice I got from a boss that I had, (00:32:25): and I don’t know if this would apply, (00:32:26): but (00:32:27): But I was working in United Cerebral Palsy in a classroom with severely disabled (00:32:36): children with lots of different disabilities. (00:32:38): And I was new and I was unsure about how to interact because I could be as (00:32:44): authentic as I wanted, (00:32:45): but I wanted to make sure I came across. (00:32:47): And she said, you have to find something in everybody that can connect you. (00:32:53): And what you were saying about be authentic and how you answer, (00:32:56): you can’t be authentic until you can find something in somebody to connect with. (00:33:01): And I wonder if doctors were able to take just a step back. (00:33:05): I know they have such busy, busy schedules. (00:33:09): to take a breath and connect, you know, because then it’s easy to be authentic. (00:33:14): Then it’s easy because you’ve just found out a little bit about that person. (00:33:17): I don’t know if that’s something that could be useful to physicians, (00:33:21): but I think that was the best advice I got my whole life. (00:33:24): I use that all the time because then I’m actually connected to the person. (00:33:28): I’m not trying to authentically connect in a way that I’m like, you know, it’s about me. (00:33:35): It makes it about them. (00:33:37): Yeah, (00:33:37): I mean, (00:33:37): I think if you have a curiosity about people in general, (00:33:41): you want to learn more about people, (00:33:43): that really helps. (00:33:45): And I think there’s a lot of incentive to do that. (00:33:48): I mean, the biggest learning that you have as a person going through life is from other people. (00:33:56): You learn about what other people’s lives are like. (00:33:58): And that’s why it can be very enjoyable to be in professions where you have (00:34:05): to their clients or patients or what have you because you end up connecting with a (00:34:10): lot of people. (00:34:11): Now, (00:34:11): that being said, (00:34:12): I think one of the challenges that a lot of doctors and health professionals face (00:34:16): these days is these healthcare systems that basically limit the amount of time that (00:34:21): they can spend with each patient. (00:34:23): Like they’re put on these assembly lines and these treadmills. (00:34:28): 15 minutes is not enough time (00:34:32): to really talk about anything. (00:34:34): I wrote an article in Forbes a while ago that basically said, what can you do in 15 minutes? (00:34:40): And I was talking about this ridiculous 15-minute limit to visits. (00:34:45): And I found a fact that an uncomplicated bathroom visit takes about six minutes. (00:34:56): That means if you want to go to the bathroom and think of the most uncomplicated (00:35:01): thing you can do in the bathroom, (00:35:04): that already takes six minutes. (00:35:07): There are a lot of complicated things that can happen in the bathroom. (00:35:11): I’m not going to list all of them right now, but you can imagine. (00:35:16): And that can immediately push things above 15 minutes. (00:35:21): So you’re talking about you’re giving less time. (00:35:26): To really figure something out to a doctor, (00:35:30): then you would a moderately typical bathroom visit, (00:35:37): right? (00:35:37): Because a typical bathroom visit can get a little more complicated than a (00:35:43): completely uncomplicated bathroom visit. (00:35:46): So that makes absolutely no sense. (00:35:48): That completely makes no sense. (00:35:50): 15 minutes. (00:35:51): Think about it. (00:35:52): 15 minutes. (00:35:53): It probably takes a minute or two minutes alone to say, (00:35:56): hey, (00:35:57): good to see you or introduce yourself, (00:35:59): et cetera. (00:36:00): Then you’ve got 13 minutes. (00:36:02): Okay. (00:36:02): Oh, I can’t log on this computer. (00:36:05): Oh, no, you’ve got 12 minutes. (00:36:07): Oh, okay. (00:36:08): Oh, excuse me. (00:36:09): I’m, you know. (00:36:10): I have to burp. (00:36:12): All that can take up time. (00:36:14): That’s just not enough time. (00:36:17): What do we do in those cases? (00:36:20): Because I feel for the physician who is thinking of you as a ticking clock. (00:36:27): You are my 15 minutes. (00:36:30): And every second that is taken away from direct work, (00:36:35): is a minute gone by. (00:36:36): That’s how it can feel. (00:36:39): So what could be done in that case for both the physician and the patient? (00:36:45): Well, (00:36:45): that’s one of the reasons why some docs have sought out other kind of practice (00:36:52): situations where they have more control of their time. (00:36:54): That’s also another reason why (00:36:57): um, patients have, have sought out those types of docs that have more time. (00:37:01): And also you will see situations where there is some variability, (00:37:06): like with, (00:37:07): especially with certain specialists, (00:37:08): they, (00:37:08): they have managed to insist that they need more time. (00:37:12): Um, uh, if you’re in a situation, uh, you could, you could, (00:37:18): uh, bring that up to the health system. (00:37:20): You know, they all have like feedback and you can say that. (00:37:25): And then, (00:37:25): so rather than say, (00:37:27): oh, (00:37:27): you know, (00:37:28): uh, (00:37:29): critique the doc, (00:37:30): you might want to critique the health system and say, (00:37:32): say, (00:37:33): look, (00:37:34): I didn’t more time with the doc. (00:37:36): And I think the doc was willing to give me more time, (00:37:39): but you know, (00:37:40): it’s on a, (00:37:41): a kind of a 15 minute slot. (00:37:43): That’s just not enough time. (00:37:45): And so if patients start doing that more often, they actually may start seeing changes. (00:37:52): There can be potential workarounds where you can insist on getting two slots or (00:37:57): stuff like that, (00:37:58): but not be charged two slots. (00:37:59): You never know. (00:38:01): Again, (00:38:02): it’s a situation where you shouldn’t feel like whatever the healthcare system is (00:38:06): dishing you, (00:38:07): you have to accept. (00:38:08): Right. (00:38:10): So if you’re back to the diagnosis, (00:38:12): right, (00:38:13): because you’re probably not thinking, (00:38:14): oh, (00:38:14): I’m going to fix the health care system now. (00:38:17): You’re like, oh, I have a diagnosis. (00:38:19): What about the portals? (00:38:20): Do doctors really look at those? (00:38:22): Do they read those? (00:38:23): Are those useful? (00:38:24): If you go into, (00:38:25): I don’t know that every place or every hospital system uses those portals where (00:38:31): you’re given your information and you can look at things. (00:38:35): Is that a good place to go, to ask questions, to get additional information? (00:38:43): Potentially. (00:38:43): That’s another thing to ask your doc. (00:38:45): How often does your doc check the portal? (00:38:49): Is the doc the actual person answering the portal questions? (00:38:56): I know one doc who says, oh, we love the portal. (00:39:02): If there’s any questions, go there. (00:39:04): So again, (00:39:04): part of it depends on the style of the position, (00:39:07): but you have to get to know what that style is. (00:39:10): So ask those types of questions. (00:39:13): It’s a lot of the principles that apply to relationships in general also apply to a (00:39:23): physician-patient relationship. (00:39:26): Not all of them, obviously. (00:39:27): But, (00:39:28): like, (00:39:29): for instance, (00:39:30): you wouldn’t, (00:39:31): like, (00:39:31): if you’re getting to know someone, (00:39:33): like a friend or something like that, (00:39:36): you wouldn’t just leave... (00:39:39): And then later, send a carrier patient message to the friend. (00:39:44): Well, you typically would say, hey, let’s exchange contact information. (00:39:49): What’s the best way to contact you? (00:39:50): And they might tell you, oh, don’t text me. (00:39:53): This is why I check most often. (00:39:55): Or, oh, if you need to reach me, this is how you reach me, right? (00:39:58): You will typically do that with someone that you want to maintain some kind of (00:40:03): continuity with after that, (00:40:04): right? (00:40:05): So... (00:40:06): Again, (00:40:06): any type of relationship, (00:40:08): even if it’s like, (00:40:09): you know, (00:40:09): professional, (00:40:10): you’re networking with someone, (00:40:11): you exchange information and say, (00:40:12): hey, (00:40:13): how do we follow up? (00:40:15): Do the same thing. (00:40:17): So would you suggest if a person, (00:40:19): you know, (00:40:20): not everybody has a primary care physician that they see. (00:40:22): A lot of people use walk-in clinics. (00:40:25): Would you say that people should maybe use the same walk-in clinic over and over (00:40:29): again so they can develop a relationship with the people in that walk-in clinic? (00:40:33): Or what would you say? (00:40:35): Now, (00:40:35): that’s very difficult because walk-in clinics can be staffed by all kinds of (00:40:39): people, (00:40:40): and it all depends. (00:40:41): Some people there can be full-time staff. (00:40:44): Some people there can be moonlighting. (00:40:47): You can get people who are residents or fellows because they’re in training, (00:40:52): so they’re not going to be there too long, (00:40:53): and then they move on to somewhere else. (00:40:55): So the walk-in types of clinics, many times, (00:40:59): They just don’t offer that continuity. (00:41:01): That’s why I think it’s better, (00:41:03): if possible, (00:41:04): to get an established physician so you can develop that relationship. (00:41:10): Again, yeah, I know people who will get all of their care from urgent care. (00:41:17): I know people that do that too. (00:41:21): So, (00:41:22): you know, (00:41:22): if a person is in that case where they use urgent care and they get a diagnosis, (00:41:27): they’re going to be assigned a doctor or they’re going to be, (00:41:30): you know, (00:41:31): they’re going to have to go to a regular doc, (00:41:33): not a regular, (00:41:33): but a doctor for whatever the diagnosis is that they get seen for. (00:41:40): I would then say, (00:41:42): assume that you would say, hey, maybe that person should go get an internist at that point. (00:41:48): Yeah, you mean a regular doctor as opposed to an irregular doctor. (00:41:52): I know, I shouldn’t have said that. (00:41:53): Yeah, the irregular doctor is like irregular clothes, you know. (00:41:58): Yeah, exactly. (00:42:01): Thethoscopes wrapped around their head. (00:42:03): Yeah. (00:42:06): Their white coat is inside out. (00:42:09): Long size. (00:42:11): So, yeah. (00:42:11): So my takeaways from this are that really, (00:42:15): you know, (00:42:16): dialogue, (00:42:17): relationship, (00:42:20): you know, (00:42:21): getting friends and family involved and don’t rely on walk-in clinics and Google (00:42:28): and AI to be your doctor. (00:42:30): Is that about right? (00:42:31): Yeah, (00:42:32): look at, (00:42:32): like, (00:42:32): you know, (00:42:33): and Google is, (00:42:35): you know, (00:42:35): you can try this experiment with Google. (00:42:38): Put in anything that you know really well in Google, (00:42:41): and you’ll find you’ll get a mixture of right information and just information (00:42:47): that’s completely off. (00:42:48): Yeah, so true. (00:42:50): Say you really, okay, take this example. (00:42:54): Say you follow a sports team very closely, or you say you follow a TV show very closely, right? (00:43:01): Try Googling that. (00:43:04): See how many opinions come up and how many things you actually disagree with. (00:43:09): Like, again, this is a sports team or TV show or movie that you know really well. (00:43:15): See how many things you actually agree with. (00:43:18): It’s going to be all over the map, right? (00:43:20): Yeah. (00:43:21): So imagine that when it comes to health or medical stuff, it’s going to be all over the map. (00:43:27): But on top of that, (00:43:30): That’s, you know, health advice is supposed to be personalized. (00:43:34): So, (00:43:35): you know, (00:43:35): opinions about a sports team or a TV show, (00:43:39): it’s applying to that sports team or TV show. (00:43:42): Not necessarily different for every person. (00:43:44): But when it comes to you, (00:43:47): a diagnosis and how it’s treated and how it’s taken care of is really personalized. (00:43:52): It all depends on your personal situation. (00:43:54): Yeah. (00:43:54): The heck are you going to find that on Google? (00:43:57): Yeah. (00:43:58): That’s Google. (00:43:59): AI is filled with inaccuracies. (00:44:03): It can tell you some, (00:44:05): it can be helpful with certain things, (00:44:06): but like think about how many times, (00:44:09): if you haven’t done this yet, (00:44:11): try to get it to do something for you (00:44:14): you know whatever ai platform and then see how many mistakes it makes right so tell (00:44:19): it to like do uh like a picture or something that you know or something yeah i (00:44:24): catch it all the time mistakes it makes it’s going to make a lot of mistakes so do (00:44:29): you really want to play around with their health in that manner um so yeah i (00:44:35): remember uh i so i teach a course on uh (00:44:40): introduction to AI and health and public health. (00:44:43): And I got the students to basically use an AI platform to produce some kind of (00:44:48): health or public health material, (00:44:50): like a campaign, (00:44:52): a commercial or something like that. (00:44:55): And then some of it looked (00:44:56): pretty good i told him also work with ai to like um you know go back and forth as (00:45:01): you know just tell to adjust these things etc and some of it look very snazzy and (00:45:05): kind of smooth but like when you dug in deeper you found many mistakes like there’s (00:45:10): this one campaign where it said you should get vaccinated against against this (00:45:16): against this virus otherwise you may get pneumo ridiculosis pneumo ridiculosis it’s (00:45:25): like what is that (00:45:28): That does not exist. (00:45:31): Folks out there, that is not a condition. (00:45:33): If someone tells you you have pneumoidiculosis, that’s not a condition. (00:45:39): So that’s a mistake, but everything looked great, right? (00:45:42): Everything, et cetera. (00:45:43): So that tells you that you can get deceptive information through AI. (00:45:49): Yeah. (00:45:50): Make it look good. (00:45:51): It can sound very authoritative and all this like that. (00:45:54): So, yeah. (00:45:56): And it’s also, you know, it will try to please you. (00:46:00): It could seem like, (00:46:03): you know, (00:46:04): if you want someone to compliment you, (00:46:05): go to one of those AI platforms. (00:46:07): They’ll compliment you very quickly. (00:46:09): I’m going up right now. (00:46:10): It may not be warranted. (00:46:12): You may not deserve that compliment, but you can get complimented. (00:46:16): Thanks for coming on tonight, Bruce. (00:46:19): I just want to let everybody know a little bit more about you. (00:46:22): This is Dr. Bruce Y. Lee. (00:46:24): He is a physician. (00:46:25): He has an MBA. (00:46:27): He’s a researcher. (00:46:28): He runs a consortium at CUNY. (00:46:30): He writes Minded by Science for Substack. (00:46:35): He writes for Forbes. (00:46:37): How many reads do you have in Forbes now? (00:46:40): Since January 2019, it’s about 92 million. (00:46:45): 92 million reads. (00:46:47): And he writes for Psychology Today, too. (00:46:49): So a lot of what we talked about, he’s probably written about already. (00:46:54): But you can check him out there and look for the posts that we do together on YouTube as well. (00:47:02): So thanks for coming on. (00:47:04): I really appreciate it. (00:47:05): And I can’t wait for our next conversation. (00:47:07): Looking forward to it. (00:47:09): Take care. (00:47:10): Right. (00:47:10): Bye, Debbie. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

13. 

    13 Apr 2026

    Live with Deborah Heiser and Bruce Y. Lee

    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

14. 

    3 Apr 2026

    Small thinking vs. Big thinking

    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

15. 

    20 Jan 2026

    Two generations. One honest conversation about aging.

    Thank you to everyone who tuned into my live video! Join me for my next live video in the app. Michael Friedman and I just recorded a livestream that brings aging out of the abstract and into real life. Michael is in his 80s; I’m in my 50s. Between us, we bring more than 75 years of advocacy for aging—Michael for over five decades, and me for more than 25 years. Michael founded the Geriatric Mental Health Alliance, and we first met decades ago when I was President of the State Society on Aging of New York. What makes this conversation different is that we’re not just talking about aging—we’re living it, at two different life stages. We explore how aging actually looks and feels as we move through midlife and into older age, and how lived experience deepens (and sometimes challenges) what we know from the academic side of aging. We’re learning from each other in real time—and we want to keep the conversation going. If there are questions about aging you’d like us to address next week, leave them in the comments. The Right Side of 40 is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

16. 

    15 Nov 2025

    Do You Know How Great You Are?

    I learned something years ago from someone who used to work at Bell Labs. And he said that every year, at the end of the year, he was requested to make an I am great sheet. And on this I am great sheet, he had to list all of the great things that he did that entire year. It was essentially a summary of all the work that he had done and all of his accomplishments. Anything that was great, maybe he won an award, maybe he innovated something, whatever that was, it would go on the I am great sheet and would get turned in. And this exercise was something that always made him feel great at the end of the project because throughout the year, he would forget about all of the great things that he had done, just like we all do. We all do things We managed to have a small win here or there, maybe even a big win, but we keep going on. And by the end of the year, we may not remember all the great things that we’ve done. So I urge you to create your I am great sheet. We are in November and you have one month left. to create your I am great sheet. What is it that you’ve done this whole year? Go back to January, look at February, We are in November and you have one month left. to create your I am great sheet. What is it that you’ve done this whole year? Go back to January, look at February, review your books that you keep your notes in, review your calendar and go back and you’ll be so surprised at just how great you are and what a great year you have. I hope this is helpful. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe (https://deborahheiserphd.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2)

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