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Why Distance Learning?

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by Seth Fleischauer, Allyson Mitchell, and Tami Moehring

4.9(19 reviews)
89 episodes
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Podcast Overview

Why Distance Learning? is a podcast about the decisions, design choices, and assumptions that determine whether live virtual learning becomes shallow and transactional—or meaningful, relational, and effective at scale. The show is designed for education leaders, instructional designers, and system-level practitioners responsible for adopting, scaling, and sustaining virtual, hybrid, and online learning models. Each episode examines the structural conditions under which distance learning actually works—and the predictable reasons it fails when it doesn’t. Through conversations with researchers, experienced practitioners, and field-shaping leaders, Why Distance Learning? translates research, field evidence, and lived experience into decision-relevant insight. Episodes surface real tradeoffs, near-failures, and hard-won lessons, equipping listeners with clear framing and language they can use to explain, defend, or redesign distance learning models in real organizational contexts. Hosted by Seth Fleischauer of Banyan Global Learning, and Allyson Mitchell and Tami Moehring of the Center for Interactive Learning and Collaboration, the podcast challenges outdated narratives about distance learning and explores what becomes possible when live virtual education is designed intentionally, human-centered, and grounded in evidence.

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3/14/2023

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Recent Episodes

Episode thumbnail for #84 Why Is Teaching Online Still Not Part of Teacher Prep? with Michael Barbour

July 6, 2026

#84 Why Is Teaching Online Still Not Part of Teacher Prep? with Michael Barbour

<p>In this episode of Why Distance Learning, your hosts talk again with Michael Barbour — the most-cited researcher in K-12 online and distance learning — about what it would actually take to fix how teachers are prepared to teach online, and why thirty years of K-12 virtual learning hasn't produced that change yet. Drawing on his 2024 paper with Charles Hodges, Michael lays out six concrete steps — two focused on building the research base, four focused on teacher preparation programs — and explains why none of it happens without explicit mandates from states and accreditation bodies. The assumption under examination: that teacher prep programs will gradually incorporate online pedagogy on their own as demand grows. The evidence suggests they won't, for the same reason they never properly integrated technology in the first place.</p><p>Together, the hosts and Michael explore the structural reasons teacher preparation programs can't make room for online pedagogy without a mandate, even when they want to. They dig into a counterintuitive finding from Newfoundland and Labrador — where students with K-12 online learning experience actually performed worse in college online courses than their peers, not because online experience is harmful, but because of how that particular program's heavy synchronous structure coddled students in ways that didn't transfer. They examine what the research actually shows about online learning and mental health (short version: the modality isn't the problem, and during the pandemic, logging into school may have been the most normal part of a child's day). And they work through the affordances and tradeoffs of synchronous versus asynchronous instruction — a framework any practitioner can apply immediately. Michael closes with the two big questions currently driving his research: where is the field of K-12 online learning thirty years in, and how much of what gets regulated in the US is driven by ideology rather than evidence?</p><p><strong>Key topics:</strong></p><ul><li>Six-step framework for reforming online teacher preparation (Barbour &amp; Hodges, 2024)</li><li>Why teacher prep programs don't change without state or accreditation mandates</li><li>The Newfoundland counterintuitive finding: when prior online experience hurts</li><li>Site-based facilitators / e-deans and the role of on-site support in distance programs</li><li>Synchronous vs. asynchronous instruction: affordances, tradeoffs, and how to choose</li><li>Online learning and student mental health: what the research actually shows</li><li>Governance and regulation of K-12 online learning in the US vs. other jurisdictions</li></ul><p><strong>Links &amp; Resources:</strong></p><ul><li>Michael Barbour's website: michaelbarbour.com</li><li>Barbour, M. K., &amp; Hodges, C. B. (2024). Preparing teachers to teach online: Steps for teacher education. Open Praxis. <a href="https://openpraxis.org/articles/10.55982/openpraxis.16.4.727">https://openpraxis.org/articles/10.55982/openpraxis.16.4.727</a></li><li>Barbour, M. K., Moore, S., &amp; Veletsianos, G. (2023). Online/remote learning and mental health. <a href="https://touroscholar.touro.edu/tucse-pubs/29/">https://touroscholar.touro.edu/tucse-pubs/29/</a></li><li>Digital Learning Collaborative / Community for Advancing Digital Learning (DLAC): Research agenda report and special issue of the Journal of Online Learning Research <a href="https://www.deelac.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/DLAC-Research-Agenda-Phase-2-Final-1052025.pdf">https://www.deelac.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/DLAC-Research-Agenda-Phase-2-Final-1052025.pdf</a></li></ul><p><strong>Guest Bio: Michael Barbour</strong></p><p>Michael Barbour is widely cited as the most prolific researcher in K-12 online and distance learning. His work spans student success and persistence in virtual environments, teacher preparation for online instruction, and the governance and regulation of K-12 online programs across jurisdictions. He is currently focused on building a research agenda for the field and examining how political ideology shapes online learning policy in the United States compared to other countries. Barbour holds a faculty position and has previously held posts at Wayne State University, among others.</p><p><strong>About the Hosts:</strong> <br>Seth Fleischauer is the founder of Banyan Global Learning and host of Why Distance Learning. Through Banyan, he designs live virtual programs that connect K-12 classrooms to global peers and expert facilitators — building the kind of structured, human-centered distance learning the podcast explores. See <a href="https://banyangloballearning.com/programs/global-cohorts">https://banyangloballearning.com/programs/global-cohorts</a></p><p>Tami Moehring and Allyson Mitchell work with CILC, the Center for Interactive Learning and Collaboration, to help educators implement high-quality live virtual learning experiences across grade levels. Discover more at <a href="https://www.cilc.org/">CILC.org</a>.</p>

Episode thumbnail for #83 Can Flexibility Hurt Online Learners? What Pacing Data Reveals with Kristen DeBruler

June 22, 2026

#83 Can Flexibility Hurt Online Learners? What Pacing Data Reveals with Kristen DeBruler

<p>In this episode of Why Distance Learning, your hosts talk with Kristen DeBruler — Assistant Director of the Michigan Virtual Learning Research Institute — about what makes online learning work for K-12 students, and what quietly undermines it. Drawing on survey data from over a thousand virtual teachers and fresh findings on student and teacher AI perceptions, her work reveals where the conventional promises of online learning diverge from what the data actually shows. The episode centers on a tension that practitioners rarely name directly: the flexibility that makes online learning valuable for some students can work against those who are still developing the self-regulation skills to use it well.</p><p>Together, the hosts and Kristen explore how a researcher inside a state virtual learning organization sets and pursues a research agenda — including the unusual advantage of having direct access to student data. They examine common failure modes in classroom-level research, particularly how vague research questions leave teachers vulnerable to the biases they're trying to surface. Kristen walks through her team's findings on the gap between how students and teachers define acceptable AI use, and why that ambiguity is already showing up in the classroom. The conversation turns to teacher feedback as the connective tissue of asynchronous online learning — and what the data shows about what makes it work and what makes it hollow. And Kristen makes a pointed case about applying adult learning research to K-12 populations: the data doesn't transfer as cleanly as the field sometimes assumes, and the consequences land on students who are still building the executive functioning skills that adult learners already have. Her pacing research is illustrative: students who cross unit boundaries — not just move around within one — end up with final grades 9.5 points lower on average, a gap large enough that teachers should treat it as a warning signal, not background noise.</p><p><strong>Key topics:</strong></p><ul><li>Researcher role inside a state virtual learning organization</li><li>Setting a research agenda: legislative directives vs. internal needs</li><li>Avoiding bias in classroom-level research</li><li>The AI acceptable-use gap between students and teachers</li><li>Teacher feedback as the primary relationship-building mechanism in async courses</li><li>What makes feedback substantive (personal, formative, actionable) vs. hollow</li><li>AI-generated feedback and trust erosion in online learning</li><li>Student pacing deviation and its effect on learning outcomes</li><li>Executive functioning support for K-12 online learners</li><li>Cautions in applying adult learning research to adolescents</li></ul><p><strong><br>Links &amp; Resources</strong></p><ul><li><strong>Michigan Virtual:</strong> <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org">https://michiganvirtual.org</a></li><li><strong>Michigan Virtual Digital Backpack (blog):</strong> <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org/blog/">https://michiganvirtual.org/blog/</a></li><li><strong>Michigan Virtual research publications:</strong> <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/">https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/</a></li><li><strong>Cuccolo, K. &amp; DeBruler, K. (2024). </strong><strong>A Look Back At 3 Years of Michigan Virtual Research.</strong><strong> Michigan Virtual.</strong> — Source of the AI policy gap data (30%/80%) and AI facilitator vs. task-completion findings. <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/a-look-back-at-3-years-of-michigan-virtual-research/">https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/a-look-back-at-3-years-of-michigan-virtual-research/</a></li><li><strong>Cuccolo, K. &amp; DeBruler, K. (2024). </strong><strong>Out of Order, Out of Reach: Navigating Assignment Sequences for STEM Success.</strong><strong> Michigan Virtual.</strong> — Source of the 9.5-point pacing deviation finding. <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/out-of-order-out-of-reach-navigating-assignment-sequences-for-stem-success/">https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/out-of-order-out-of-reach-navigating-assignment-sequences-for-stem-success/</a></li><li><strong>DeBruler, K. &amp; Harrington, C. (2024). </strong><strong>Key Strategies for Supporting Disengaged and Struggling Students in Virtual Learning Environments.</strong><strong> Michigan Virtual.</strong> <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/key-strategies-for-supporting-disengaged-and-struggling-students-in-virtual-learning-environments/">https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/key-strategies-for-supporting-disengaged-and-struggling-students-in-virtual-learning-environments/</a></li><li><strong>Harrington, C. &amp; DeBruler, K. (2021). </strong><strong>Key Strategies for Engaging Students in Virtual Learning Environments.</strong><strong> Michigan Virtual.</strong> <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/key-strategies-for-engaging-students-in-virtual-learning-environments/">https://michiganvirtual.org/research/publications/key-strategies-for-engaging-students-in-virtual-learning-environments/</a></li><li><strong>Michigan Virtual report on student and teacher AI perceptions (2026):</strong> [LINK — get from guest; published ~2 weeks before recording]</li><li><strong>Jared Borup's ACE for Community Framework:</strong> <a href="https://edtechbooks.org/encyclopedia/academic_communities_of_engagement_ace_framework">https://edtechbooks.org/encyclopedia/academic_communities_of_engagement_ace_framework</a> </li><li><strong>Virtual Learning Leadership Alliance (VLLA):</strong> <a href="https://virtuallearningalliance.org/">https://virtuallearningalliance.org/</a></li><li><strong>Karle Delo, Michigan Virtual (AI policy):</strong> <a href="https://michiganvirtual.org">https://michiganvirtual.org</a> (search staff directory)</li><li><strong>Why Distance Learning Michigan Virtual Episodes: </strong>See list for episodes with Dr. Tovah Sheldon and two with MV alum Chris Harrington. <a href="https://www.cilc.org/News-(1)/Why-Distance-Learning-Podcast.aspx">https://www.cilc.org/News-(1)/Why-Distance-Learning-Podcast.aspx</a></li><li><strong>Make It Mindful Michigan Virtual Episodes</strong>: See list from Seth's other podcast for episodes with Karle Delo and two with Aaron Baughman. <a href="https://mim.bepodcast.network/episodes">https://mim.bepodcast.network/episodes</a></li></ul><p><strong><br>Guest Bio: Kristen DeBruler</strong></p><p>Kristen DeBruler is the Assistant Director of the Michigan Virtual Learning Research Institute, where she has spent more than 14 years studying K-12 online learning — including student pacing, teacher communication, mentor support, special populations, and AI use in virtual environments. Her research is oriented toward practitioners: she publishes findings in formats designed for teachers, administrators, and program leaders to act on, not just cite. She holds a PhD in Educational Psychology and Educational Technology from Michigan State University.</p><p><strong><br>About the Hosts</strong></p><p>Seth Fleischauer is the founder of Banyan Global Learning and host of Why Distance Learning. Through Banyan, he designs live virtual programs that connect K-12 classrooms to global peers and expert facilitators — building the kind of structured, human-centered distance learning the podcast explores. See <a href="https://banyangloballearning.com/">https://banyangloballearning.com/</a></p><p>Tami Moehring and Allyson Mitchell work with CILC, the Center for Interactive Learning and Collaboration, to help educators implement high-quality live virtual learning experiences across grade levels. Discover more at <a href="https://www.cilc.org/">CILC.org</a>.</p>

Episode thumbnail for #82 All Learning Is Social: Jered Borup on Social Presence in K-12 Online Learning (Part 2)

June 8, 2026

#82 All Learning Is Social: Jered Borup on Social Presence in K-12 Online Learning (Part 2)

<p>In this episode of Why Distance Learning, your hosts continue their conversation with Jered Borup — professor at George Mason University and one of the most-cited researchers in K-12 online learning — about what AI in education is actually doing to relationships, what social presence requires when "build a video lecture" can be done by a chatbot, and why teacher burnout is the real bottleneck the field doesn't want to talk about. Borup connects his earliest 2012 work on asynchronous video to his 2025 Open Praxis research on combining AI-generated text with human-created video, and argues that AI used to offload feedback erodes the very thing online learners need: the felt sense that the teacher is real and knows them.</p><p>Together, the hosts and Jered explore the conflation of social media, video games, and ed tech in the parental imagination after the pandemic; how to use AI without replacing the relational core of teaching; why one-on-one asynchronous video may build social presence more reliably than synchronous Zoom classes; the DLAC Phase 2 research agenda Borup co-authored with Michael Barbour and Kristen DeBruler; the mental-health gap between teachers and other professionals with comparable education; and Borup's one-line answer to the show's title question — that personalization and Universal Design for Learning are easier to do online than off.</p><p>This is Part 2 of a two-part conversation. <a href="https://wdl.bepodcast.network/episodes/81-jered-borup">Listen to Part 1</a> for the foundational ACE framework, the on-site mentor model, and the parent question.</p><p><strong><br>Key Topics</strong></p><ul><li>"Emergency remote learning" vs. real online learning — what parents are still confusing</li><li>Social presence — old research, new tools (asynchronous video, AI-plus-human-video)</li><li>The risk of offloading teacher feedback to AI</li><li>Asynchronous one-on-one video as a relationship lever (vs. one-to-many Zoom)</li><li>DLAC Research Agenda Phase 2 — what's keeping researchers up at night</li><li>Teacher mental health and the AI strain on top of pandemic strain</li><li>Authentic assessment and "we're too in love with the five-paragraph essay"</li><li>Empathy as the core design move</li><li>"Why distance learning?" — empowerment, personalization, UDL</li></ul><p><strong><br>Links &amp; Resources</strong></p><ul><li>Jered Borup's site: <a href="https://sites.google.com/site/jeredborup/">https://sites.google.com/site/jeredborup/</a></li><li>ACE Framework on EdTech Books: <a href="https://edtechbooks.org/encyclopedia/academic_communities_of_engagement_ace_framework">https://edtechbooks.org/encyclopedia/academic_communities_of_engagement_ace_framework</a></li><li>A Framework for Establishing Social Presence Through the Combination of AI-generated Text with Human-created Video (Open Praxis, 2025): <a href="https://openpraxis.org/articles/10.55982/openpraxis.17.1.769">https://openpraxis.org/articles/10.55982/openpraxis.17.1.769</a></li><li>Harnessing the Power of Generative AI to Support ALL Learners (Borup, Evmenova &amp; Shin, 2024): <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/380570253_Harnessing_the_Power_of_Generative_AI_to_Support_ALL_Learners">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/380570253_Harnessing_the_Power_of_Generative_AI_to_Support_ALL_Learners</a></li><li>DLAC Research Agenda Phase Two (Borup, Barbour &amp; DeBruler, Sept 2025): <a href="https://www.deelac.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/DLAC-Research-Agenda-Phase-2-Final-1052025.pdf">https://www.deelac.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/DLAC-Research-Agenda-Phase-2-Final-1052025.pdf</a></li><li>Breaking Through the Screen: Practical Tips for Engaging Learners in the Online and Blended Classroom (Borup &amp; Joan Kang Shin, National Geographic Learning): <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Through-Screen-Practical-classroom/dp/0357541855">https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Through-Screen-Practical-classroom/dp/0357541855</a></li><li>K-12 Blended Teaching open-source book series: <a href="https://edtechbooks.org/k12blended_series">https://edtechbooks.org/k12blended_series</a></li><li>Jered's Google Scholar: <a href="https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=PGs7TacAAAAJ&amp;hl=en">https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=PGs7TacAAAAJ&amp;hl=en</a></li><li>Part 1 of this conversation: [LINK — add when published]</li></ul><p><strong><br>Guest Bio: Jered Borup</strong></p><p>Jered Borup is a professor in the Division of Learning Technologies at George Mason University and co-coordinator of the Learning Technologies in Schools graduate program. His research, grounded in six years of junior-high history teaching, focuses on K-12 online and blended learning: the support communities that surround a learner, the parental role in online education, and how generative AI can extend personalized support to historically underserved students. He earned his Ph.D. in Instructional Psychology and Technology from Brigham Young University and has been recognized as one of the top 2% most-cited researchers in his field.</p><p><strong><br>About the Hosts</strong></p><p>Seth Fleischauer is the founder of Banyan Global Learning and host of Why Distance Learning. Through Banyan, he designs live virtual programs that connect K-12 classrooms to global peers and expert facilitators — building the kind of structured, human-centered distance learning the podcast explores. See <a href="https://banyangloballearning.com/">https://banyangloballearning.com/</a></p><p>Allyson Mitchell works with CILC, the Center for Interactive Learning and Collaboration, to help educators implement high-quality live virtual learning experiences across grade levels. Discover more at <a href="https://www.cilc.org/">CILC.org.</a></p>

89 total episodes available

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Frequently asked questions

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What is Why Distance Learning??

Why Distance Learning? is a podcast about the decisions, design choices, and assumptions that determine whether live virtual learning becomes shallow and transactional—or meaningful, relational, and effective at scale.

The show is designed for education leaders, instructional designers, and system-level practitioners responsible for adopting, scaling, and sustaining virtual, hybrid, and online learning models. Each episode examines the structural conditions under which distance learning actually works—and the predictable reasons it fails when it doesn’t.

Through conversations with researchers, experienced practitioners, and field-shaping leaders, Why Distance Learning? translates research, field evidence, and lived experience into decision-relevant insight. Episodes surface real tradeoffs, near-failures, and hard-won lessons, equipping listeners with clear framing and language they can use to explain, defend, or redesign distance learning models in real organizational contexts.

Hosted by Seth Fleischauer of Banyan Global Learning, and Allyson Mitchell and Tami Moehring of the Center for Interactive Learning and Collaboration, the podcast challenges outdated narratives about distance learning and explores what becomes possible when live virtual education is designed intentionally, human-centered, and grounded in evidence.

How often does this podcast release new episodes?

This podcast updates weekly.

Where can I listen to this podcast?

This podcast is available on 10 platforms including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. You can also use the RSS feed directly.

Does this podcast accept guests?

No, this podcast does not typically feature guests.

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