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Workforce Therapy Files

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This podcast is designed for business leaders and human resource professionals who are challenged with expanding their workforce. Workforce Therapy Files, an Employer Solutions Podcast, is hosted by 3 separate business owners who operate in the staffing and human resources space. They'll provide perspectives, tips and advice (along with a little humor) to help you prepare for and manage your workforce challenges. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: • Jamie Swaim, SPHR – www.ParcelKnows.com • Molley Ricketts – www.IncipioWorks.com • Jason Heflin – www.CrowdSouth.com We hope you find it insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

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Recent Episodes

June 8, 2026

AI Change Management: A Practical Guide for Modern Organizations

File 39: In this file of Workforce Therapy Files, the hosts sit down with Jenna Ahern, founder of Guardian Owl Digital, to discuss the rapid impact of artificial intelligence on business, leadership, and the future of work. They explore why organizations need intentional AI policies, stronger data governance, and ongoing employee training as AI becomes more integrated into daily operations. Jenna emphasizes that leaders must approach AI as a change-management challenge rather than simply a technology initiative. The group stresses the importance of creating learning environments where employees can safely experiment and build competency. Jenna also shares lessons from her entrepreneurial journey, including the importance of betting on yourself and recognizing that hustle alone does not scale a business. The file encourages leaders to embrace continuous learning and proactively guide their organizations through a rapidly evolving landscape. Key Themes · Meet Jenna Ahern · Entrepreneurship, Resilience and Betting on Yourself · AI is a Leadership Challenge, not Just a Technology Challenge · Why Every Organization Needs an AI Policy · Building AI Skills through Practice and Continuous Learning Episode Transcript Molley Ricketts: Welcome back to the Workforce Therapy Files. We are here today with an amazing guest, Mrs. Jenna Ahern. How are you doing today? Jenna Ahern: Hi, I'm so grateful to be here. Thank you all for having me. Molley Ricketts: Jenna is here with us today. She owns Guardian Owl Digital Agency. Look at me. I remembered. I usually just say Guardian Owl. So, the digital agency is the new part for me. We are excited to have you on the show today. Before we kick off though, Jamie has to ask one of her very unique questions. Drum roll. Jamie Swaim: But today we're going to do something a smidge different. Molley Ricketts: Uh-oh. Jamie Swaim: Because I like to keep it spicy. Okay. Jenna Ahern: Same. Jamie Swaim: Choose between door number one or door number two. Jenna Ahern: Two. Jamie Swaim: Okay, number two, tell us something that you think is ridiculously overrated. Jenna Ahern: Ridiculously overrated? Jason Heflin: Podcasts. Jenna Ahern: Podcasts. I know that's a really good one. I think right now and relevant to this, what's really, really overrated is Sintra.AI. Call it out. Jamie Swaim: Why? Jenna Ahern: Because I think that it has a lot of hype and they have a lot of marketing and they're doing a decent job. But I think that that to me is a very much hyped-up AI tool, just like a lot of the AI tools are. And so I wanted to say AI is overhyped, but I can't say that because it's not. It's real. It's serious. It is definitely here. I'm like, some of the tools are, so I went Sintra. Jamie Swaim: Okay. Jenna Ahern: That's how my brain operated on that question. Jamie Swaim: Alright. Jenna Ahern: Do you want a personal overrated? Jamie Swaim: Sure. You can do it however you want. Jenna Ahern: I don't have one. I need like a cross. Jamie Swaim: You can also point to anybody else here and ask them to popcorn it. Jenna Ahern: Oh, I know those Stanley cups. I think those are overrated. Jamie Swaim: They spill way too easily. Jenna Ahern: I don't have one. I never bought one. I think those are overrated. Jamie Swaim: Tell me, you don't have a teenager at home without telling me you have a teenager. Jenna Ahern: Exactly. I'm like, that's ridiculous. Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Jenna Ahern: There you go. That's overrated. I probably had made a lot of people angry right there. Jason Heflin: So, what's underrated right now? How about that? Jenna Ahern: Water. Jason Heflin: Water. Jenna Ahern: I think we should be talking more about water and sustainability and ethics. AI is new, sure, but virtues and our environment hasn't really changed. There's still water around hopefully. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Lots of question marks there though. Jenna Ahern: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Jenna Ahern: But that's underrated right now. Clean drinking water. Jamie Swaim: Jason, what's overrated for you? Jason Heflin: What's overrated? The McRib. Jamie Swaim: The McRib? Yeah. Jenna Ahern: Overrated or underrated? Jason Heflin: I think it's overrated. I mean, you know. Jenna Ahern: Have you last sampled? Jason Heflin: Oh, it's been years. I don't know. Jim said it. Jim said it. So I'm stealing Jim's answer. Jenna Ahern: Well, I heard they had a reckoning. That's why I was like, oh wow. Jason Heflin: Oh yeah. No, I don't know. Jamie Swaim: Alright. Molley, what do you think? Molley Ricketts: Yeah, and I knew this was coming around and I still can't think of anything. Jenna Ahern: I gave you like three minutes. Molley Ricketts: You did. Jamie Swaim: Want me to go first? Okay, it gives you a little bit more time though. You need to be thinking. Okay. For me, socks. Molley Ricketts: Oh, that's a good one. Jamie Swaim: I think socks are incredibly overrated, except on cold days. I'll give you a caveat there. But the amount of energy it takes to wash them, match them. The number of times you only find one. To me, forget it. I'm just going sockless. I don't want socks. Jason Heflin: What about… Molley, what about washing jeans? Molley Ricketts: That's overrated. Jason Heflin: Some people don't wash their jeans. That's overrated. Molley Ricketts: You're not supposed to wash your jeans. Okay? Jenna Ahern: Agreed. Molley Ricketts: A couple of times a year. Jason Heflin: I over-wash my jeans. Jamie Swaim: Do you have it on your calendar? Is it like today's jean wash day? Molley Ricketts: No, it's just that they're standing up straight. Then you turn them inside out and wash them. Jenna Ahern: And you can smell them. Jamie Swaim: If they're standing up straight? Jenna Ahern: Smell. There's a stop. Gets to a point. Jamie Swaim: It's got food on them. Jenna Ahern: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: Remember earlier when we were talking about values and ethics, the virtues? I don't know. I feel like we're crossing over some weird line here with the jeans conversation. Jenna Ahern: I mean, I think it's right in line with the WTF. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Molley Ricketts: Okay, so back on track. Agree? Jamie Swaim: Yes. Molley Ricketts: Okay. Ms. Jenna? Jenna Ahern: Yes. Entrepreneurship, Resilience and Betting on Yourself Molley Ricketts: I know that you started Guardian Owl. You've launched it. Jenna Ahern: I did. Molley Ricketts: Got it going. Congratulations. Jenna Ahern: I blacked out. How many years has it been? Molley Ricketts: Having a brown out moment? Yeah. How many years has it been? Jenna Ahern: 12. Jamie Swaim: Congratulations. That's incredible. Jenna Ahern: Wild. Thank you. Wild rollercoaster ride. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Wild one turns upside down goes way far down. Jenna Ahern: I know. But I like rollercoasters. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, I do too. It's the excitement of it, not the fear. Right? Jenna Ahern: Thrill of the ride. Molley Ricketts: So what was the moment? And I feel like as entrepreneurs sitting around the table, we all have this moment where you were just like, I can't keep doing this. I can't do this anymore. And what made you keep doing it? Jenna Ahern: In corporate America or running my business? Molley Ricketts: Running your business. Jenna Ahern: You know, I think that we all, I call it have you ever seen the reds? And so sometimes I think when I get to those states, it's oftentimes a buildup or 10 things went wrong in two days. And it is just usually this small sample size. And when I'm in that moment, that's when I have to work on. And again, this is a learned skillset, breathing and trying to ground myself into a reality that isn't myself. So, really just getting out a little macro because what I'm doing is not that important. I'm not saving lives or anything. So, oftentimes when I get to those points where I want to give up or I want to quit or I want to break, I think I just have to really zoom out. And it starts with just quick breathing. If I have two minutes before I'm going to freak out or if I have more time, I really have gotten into just being more still. I used to be a runner and would burn a lot of my rage, my reds, with training hard, training heavy. And I think that that was great for the season I was in. But one of the things that I've recognized is I am clearer and more steady when I am more still and not moving. And so I think yoga on a weekly basis has helped me with that. Reading. Just taking time away from the screen. Walking for 20 minutes. Standing up. Actually doing those things. I mean, we could talk about it, but getting into a rhythm where I'm doing that every week at least one time a week has just helped my reds go from happening every two weeks on this rollercoaster ride to maybe once every two months. Molley Ricketts: So that's the point of what keeps you going. So why did you even start? What was it that was that trigger that was like, I got this, I can do this. Jenna Ahern: I think that my mom really helped push me over the edge. I was burning the candle from both ends when I was working full-time in corporate America and then also growing the business. And I was trying to do both. And I'm sure a lot of people who've grown business did that for the time period. I really struggled to let go. And what made me choose my business was if I was going to work that hard and pour everything into it, I wanted it to be mine and not for another company. Not at that time, not in that season and not at that period of just the internet and search engine marketing. And so that, betting on myself, that was the moment and that was the bet I took and I'm really glad that I bet on myself. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, you're pretty kickass. I'll give you that. Jamie Swaim: For those of us who aren't as familiar as Molley is to your business, tell us what Guardian Owl does. Jenna Ahern: Guardian Owl is a digital marketing agency. We also have a GO AI division, and we help you be seen and chosen when somebody is searching for your product or service across the internet. Jamie Swaim: Very cool. Jenna Ahern: Yeah. Jason Heflin: And AI is a huge part of that right now. Jenna Ahern: It has and is and is going to be a big part. Yes, absolutely. Whether we like it or not, it's here. AI is a Leadership Challenge, not Just a Technology Challenge Jason Heflin: So that's the topic we want to talk about today. You are an expert and we want to tap into that a little bit. Jenna Ahern: Well, that was like an hour ago. So much has changed. Jason Heflin: Yeah, by the time this airs. Jenna Ahern: Yeah, I'm no longer the expert. Jason Heflin: So like we talked about, this podcast is about the workforce. And so where are you seeing things evolve in the workplace from both an employer's perspective and the employee's perspective with AI? And I know that's a really broad question, but just fire away and let us know kind of what you're seeing out there right now and what needs to be addressed. Jenna Ahern: Well, it's the wild, wild West on both sides I would say. And I think that it's change. We're in a period of change. And I want to make sure too, we're also in an environment that is most would say unstable, more chaotic. We're coming off of COVID. Now we're in an arena that has had a lot of change, not just from a business standpoint, but from our country. And so on top of that, now you are asking humans to make incredible changes in their lifestyle with AI and implementing it just for one and using it. And then two, being able to neurologically change and the way they think about things and the way they work. And to me, that's asking a lot of humans right now. I think to that last part, what do we need to talk more about? We need to just talk more about policies. How are we being intentional about creating these policies for our organization? It doesn't matter if it's an organization of 3, 30, 3000 or 30,000. I think that the leadership needs to understand not just how we're using these tools, but what's the impact of these tools within our organization and how we're deploying. Because bias and certain things can scale just as the good can. So, I think we need to have more of those conversations intentionally at a leadership-level and we need to have more policy and data governance. Jason Heflin: Would you say true or false? Most companies do not have an AI policy. Jenna Ahern: True. Why Every Organization Needs an AI Policy Jason Heflin: True or false? Most companies should have an AI policy. Jenna Ahern: True. Jason Heflin: Okay. How do they get one? Let's say I'm a leader. I know nothing about AI, but I know it's a thing (air quotes) and I need to be addressing it. My team's using it. How do I get started? Jenna Ahern: Don't they just put that into ChatGPT and just say, what's the right policy? Jason Heflin: Should I just put into Chat? Jenna Ahern: And believe it or not, people are doing that. Let's just call that out, right? Jamie Swaim: Got HR policies every day. Jenna Ahern: No, stop doing that. And some people put it on their website in the footers on their privacy policy, like their AI policy. I'm like with the prompt there are hyphens. And oftentimes it's from 2022, 2023. If your AI policy, to your point, if you're not checking that now quarterly, you're behind. And that goes for Guardian Owl, as well. We're actively updating one from July. So that's where we are. And to go back to how should you approach this one, don't go to ChatGPT, but two, when we're talking about change management, I see a lot of managers out there talking about AI and not leaders. And I think we need to be intentional about how we are approaching this conversation with our organizations. If you're automatically going to humans and saying, here's our policy and not giving them a say and how do you think that this should be covered? How do you think that you're a valuable part of our organization? What are your thoughts? And addressing these concerns and the scarcity mindset and everything that comes with change, fears, addressing those and making sure that voices are heard before then you roll out a policy that one, nobody's going to know half of the stuff in there anyway, right? Because we're all learning it together. So, I think the biggest thing is make sure people know that they're seen and their voices are heard. Whether or not they approach you. Everyone's culture is different. But I think allowing, especially your leaders to have a seat in the table with just a conversation before you craft this policy is important. Jamie Swaim: I really like the way that you're heading here sometimes on our podcast, I like to give a little Parcel policy moment, and I've never seen a topic more like AI in the workplace that requires the cooperation of literally every division. So, things that make my chest super tight, for example, is using AI to create harassing images or harassing limericks or something like that to bully an employee. Jenna Ahern: Or for me, uploading financial information of clients to do analysis. Jamie Swaim: Yes. Or for the legal team, they're probably going to have some question marks about whether or not anything that you're uploading to get some insight on releases confidential information or IP. If you were to go over to Finance, they're definitely going to be like, please don't put our financial data out there. And a lot of times people are using these systems without removing names or identifying information. And we definitely see a lot of headlines about how AI can be used for surveillance and be able to be data that can be sold or shared with another company without your permission. So I don't know. I got lots of question marks here and I think it is definitely, I love hearing you say, let's get everybody together to start talking through how we should be managing this stuff so that it is being hit from every angle. Jason Heflin: Let's say I'm that same leader and I go to my team and I say, let's write an AI policy, but we need help. Is that something Digital Owl does? Jenna Ahern: Yes. Guardian Owl, but I love that you call us Digital Owl. Jason Heflin: It's a subdivision. Jenna Ahern: It's a subdivision. It's growing. It's growing. We just launched today. Jason Heflin: It happened just now. Jenna Ahern: We hatched. Now I forget the question. What was it? Jason Heflin: So can Guardian now help with writing the policy? Jenna Ahern: Yes, of course. But I also, I think that too, in organizations that are moving fast, you might even have an AI consultant or you might have, yes, we can help with that and help train, but depending on what your organization does, we might not even be the right fit for you based on your needs or your location or your wants and desires or the problems you're fixing. So I think that's why getting all your leaders together and understanding, okay, do we want in this policy? And then two, yeah, do we need external help? Do we want to bring in, based on these concerns? Because it's something that everyone needs to be on the same page and be really strong in the charge and being on the same page continually, when you're running a company. This is some serious stuff. If you have data leaks or you do have employees that are, it's just a lot of ways that this could go wrong. So, I think that if you're not all on the same page, and yes, we do that, but I think that you can also lean into external sources in your local area, or even if you have a franchise. A great example is <a href= "https://www.cushmanwakefield.com/en/united-states/offices/louisville"> Cushman & Wakefield</a>. They have commercial, Kentucky is their separate entity, but Cushman & Wakefield has an overarching policy. Well, they use that to then help craft their own. And we came in and are a part of that as well as the training component. Hey, here are the do's and don'ts, here's how we want to think about how we're rolling it out. Because even in every organization, they probably have 20% of their people that are actually going to be actively using and engaging. And then they're going to have a big chunk of people that are going to need handholding. And this can be a big change. And then they might have people that might not make it. So again, it's like that is something that yes, we like to do and we can do, but I also think that it needs to be a good fit for everybody in the organization because it should be a long ride, long partnership. Building AI Skills through Practice and Continuous Learning Jamie Swaim: I think one of the things that also stands out to me is that this is going to be such a pervasive topic over the next however many years, maybe just the future of work in general. I'm curious how people grow competency, because business leaders are not going to want to outsource a hundred percent of the things they're responsible for. How do people learn what they need to know? Because this is brand new for a lot of people that are in the workforce. Jenna Ahern: And how you learn everything is practice and there becomes the human variable of change. Because if you aren't practicing and you aren't utilizing different models, you're not going to understand the languages and how each one operates. That to me is going to dramatically affect the hiring process because if we operate on Claude and you aren't familiar, you're very familiar with Copilot. Okay, that might be a huge factor for me in the future because it already is now. If you're not using it because we need that as a skillset. But to me, I think if you're not practicing just as an individual, then it's going to be a challenge. And then also I think from a company standpoint, I think giving some time for your team in the work day to actually go play and create and learn. And I almost want to say instead of prompt engineering, context engineering, because that's the real practicing. How do you practice giving the AI models contextual information? And the people that are good at that are going to be the ones that get hired to me. And that's what I foresee. And the people that are good at that are the ones that are just practicing and that's it. It's practice. Jason Heflin: Do you advocate for training? Jenna Ahern: Oh yes. I advocate for training. I'm training. I mean, I go to, gosh, Jermaine Watkins and Dan Murphy actually started just a group of, it was like, Hey, come learn AI. So Tuesdays we'd be building, I started an AI Distilling Co. We host monthly events and we have speakers and just for everybody in the room to learn about a different topic, whether it's legal, whether again HR, so much is changing so fast that not only do we need training, but I think it's just, it's a lot. So we need to hear it a lot. And because we're not going to be able to get all this in one in a six-month time period. Jason Heflin: Well, and when you think about training, how often do you need to renew that training? How often do you need to go back to the well and say, okay, it's changed? I mean, is it just an ongoing thing? Jenna Ahern: I think that this is going to be instead of social networks, learning networks, creating learning networks where people feel safe to grow this skill. I mean think about when computers came out. I remember my mom, she was a guidance counselor and she had to stay after work to get training with the mouse because she didn't know how to use the mouse. Think about that. If I asked you right now, how much training do you need to use the mouse? It's like, well, I don't know. It might take you depending on also on Apple, Microsoft. I don't know how familiar you are with the platform. So to me, I think that we're really going to see a surge in learning networks and collaborative communities where people feel safe to practice and get better and build. And I think that that's where this can be exciting because you think about AI can be really isolating, but if you're creating community around it, I mean, this could be a really, really cool thing too. Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. I think for me, there's also this, everybody learning how to behave in the era of AI. It's not any different in some ways from using Google. If you go to Google and you Google something and you pull data from a not trusted source. So sometimes even in prompt or context, I'll ask for source data so that I can go find the article to make me feel good about what it came back in my AI information. Jenna Ahern: Exactly. Or I'll give you a great example. I had a manager call me and they've been using AI. They embraced it and we've used it in their social media. I mean they're killing it. ChatGPT, it's like, man, don't you just get annoyed that you can't, if I'm on my mobile ChatGPT, and then I go to my desktop that they're not connected? They're not synced. I'm like, well, you can always just share the link, share your chat. How do you do that? And so again, I think getting people together and just practicing and building almost like a sports activity. How do you learn soccer? We get into a group and we practice. I think that's how people are going to learn is we get together and we build. Jamie Swaim: Yes. Jenna Ahern: I think that that is, to me, the oddest thing that's going to hopefully come out of AI is maybe it'll bring people together. Molley Ricketts: I'll never forget when I first started using AI, it was last summer, summer of 2024. So I was the polish or refine or what are some ideas? And then January of 2025, I committed to 31 days of learning different platforms. I went through, is it cursive? Yeah, I think so. I did that and learned so much and within three or four months I was writing what I felt was very close to code, to put into Chat for my prompts. So Sher, my COO, I sent something to her and she was like, where did you get this? How did you do this? And I said, I got it out of Chat. And she goes, Jamie Swaim: I wrote a code. Molley Ricketts: She goes, how did you get this out of Chat? So I sent her the prompt and I mean, it was like a paragraph, right? Because if you do it right, she was like, well, how did you learn how to do that? And Molley Ricketts: And I'm like, remember the 31 days of dedicated learning I got from AI? Now, I say that to say everything that I learned 15 months ago isn't so far beyond now, but it helped me to learn about different inputs to put into my Chat. Like Canva. What is that thing called? Jenna Ahern: The different models. Yeah. Molley Ricketts: Yes. Jenna Ahern: Different ones are different. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. HR business partner is a link that you can put into Chat. So all of these different ones, and as I've learned more, then I can go, okay, I don't want that one in there anymore. I want this one in there. And then I can go to those different categories when I'm doing HR specific policies because I'm so gifted in that area, Jamie, for sure. And just really using it to the benefit of what it's for, not to polish and refine the way an email's getting responded to. That's not what it's for. And I think the, I'm going to say this and it's probably not going to be real popular, so listeners give me some grace. Jamie Swaim: Or plug your ears right now. Molley Ricketts: It's very careless. Jenna Ahern: Yes. Molley Ricketts: The tool is too powerful to use as an elementary adventure. I'm not going to say that you can't learn from that, but there are so many other ways that you can learn, without using the tool itself, about the tool that you should really take advantage of that if you're going to learn to use it, in my opinion. Jason Heflin: AI uses the data it has access to, and that data's not always accurate. Jenna Ahern: You're right. It hallucinates. Jason Heflin: Yes. Jenna Ahern: It's very biased. It lies. Molley Ricketts: Yes. Jenna Ahern: It is a toddler. You have to train it. It is going to lie to you. Jason Heflin: So master prompts. Tell me about that. How can we use master prompts to be better with our AI? Jenna Ahern: Define what is your definition of master prompt? Jason Heflin: Like educating the AI on who you are, what you do, and how you need it to work. Jenna Ahern: I see. So I mean, again, good data in, good data out. So the more, and again, I recommend getting on a paid closed version before you start giving the model all the information about you. But I would give as much as you can data wise. I mean email you can connect, you can upload Google Drive documents, I mean about yourself websites. I think mine, I have little GPTs for different things now and my voice tone. You can also set rules. So, I think over time even went with the master prompt. I guess what I'm saying is I can build different voices of myself based on the data that I have shared and curated and uploaded, specifically. So, I say all that because I think that's important because to your point, that's the data it's going to be working off of. And so then I think from master prompting, I mean to Molley's point about code, I think it just really being intentional, as detailed as you can be about exactly what you want. Demographics, location, giving if it is imagery, giving the actual images as detailed as you can be. And then from a prompt standpoint, I think I don't have a template to say here's the master what you need to do. Jason Heflin: It's probably unique to everybody. Jenna Ahern: Yeah, exactly. But I think that you can then, once information is populated, the one thing that I always like to do is remember it's a toddler trained it. So then give it feedback of no, that's not aligned with who I am. That wasn't correct. And so I think that feedback part is something that also will help your overall prompting. I don't know if you experienced that too with it'll even say, sorry, some of them, they want to be… Molley Ricketts: I'll say, try again. Jenna Ahern: Yeah, exactly. But I think even with your negative, yes, the master prompts, but also your responsing, your responsive feedback in your coaching and your guidance is such a big part too of getting it to understand the context and learn. Jason Heflin: Yes. Jenna Ahern: And I mean, to Molley's point, I'm getting better. I was an expert 30 minutes ago and now I'm not. So I'm like, I'm still trying to get better about how to intentionally write my prompts. Jason Heflin: And you can ask on most language models, you can ask the source. You can ask it, what's your source for that information? Jenna Ahern: Or you can say, always show me the sources. Jason Heflin: Yeah, always show me the source and then don't use this source again or use this source more. Jenna Ahern: That's right. Set the rules. Yep, exactly. And this is where you can go down the rabbit hole of bias because it's like, Hey, this is not accurate, or this is not what I want. So I'm filtering out specifically curating a vacuum for myself. So I think that's something again that you just have to be really careful about. Molley Ricketts: One of the things that I learned too is that you have to tell it to tell you the bad. Jenna Ahern: Yep, exactly. Molley Ricketts: Because what I learned early-on was if you just ask it for the one thing or a specific prompt that isn't detailed enough that's going to give you the good, the bad, and the ugly, then it'll just give you the good. Jenna Ahern: Correct. Yeah. Molley Ricketts: And yes, we're all rock stars a hundred percent, but we still fall. I'll even say make this from human points of view with references or testimonials from sources with those provided in this example of X, Y and Z. Jenna Ahern: Exactly. Molley Ricketts: Because will never tell you that you're wrong. Jenna Ahern: No. Molley Ricketts: Will never tell you that. You need to look at it from a different point of view. And for those that are just using it as a good time and not really learning it, as with everything, don't pretend to be an expert if you're not. And the scary part for me in AI is that there are so many people that are claiming to be experts and there's no one that's an expert. And then to expect to know, just to your point, you were an expert 30 minutes ago. Jenna Ahern: I didn't proclaim that, by the way, just for that. Molley Ricketts: We're giving her that title today. That's the scary part to me, is the people that are misusing it. Jamie Swaim: Even people who graduate with it six months after they graduate, they're done. Jenna Ahern: Correct. Entrepreneurship, Resilience and Betting on Yourself Jamie Swaim: So Jenna, I appreciate the intensity around policy, structure, intentionality, alignment within the organization. There's so many things that we've talked about on this podcast that really lean into those as concepts. But I'm going to make a hard pivot. You ready? I heard something about you before you got here today that I'm going to bring up. Molley Ricketts: Drum roll, please. Jamie Swaim: You have done something that is on my vision board. Jenna Ahern: Oh my gosh! Jamie Swaim: Yes. And it's that you have helped write a book. Jenna Ahern: Yes. Yes. Jamie Swaim: I think that is phenomenal. Jenna Ahern: Thank you. Jamie Swaim: So congratulations. Jenna Ahern: Thank you. Jamie Swaim: So tell us what the name of the book is. Jenna Ahern: So, <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/She-Knows-Best-Business-Extraordinary/dp/B0G9VHHD59/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BC6BV6BML7XK&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tHeM5vdnHrpLwOgTtPo7rIAgA2BboQyO0BRKFY8OSbd7VGqqOZfvaBanusfAH-EBqt3ieOrtBnElzS9gQvAEkILz-_C4-xZvmAUQ6LImQNNIsjxk3K2Q2Reqwm38SoZNyUBbwe3WD_94vh_MCHkPs9IyM-1ihjqq9DlmCGgTNNjpW5pjwkrNRCIYALoPLwLR4W9EZyVNjQ-x_T2btZVXaog7d-rZw2Aa-TT6r0sAmYw.J1wGJ2NWx7vEC_vak59Qzmwm_qgz9ZBHtmJDtHD3i4A&dib_tag=se&keywords=she+knows+best+book&qid=1780609812&sprefix=she+knows+b%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-1" target="_blank" rel="noopener">She Knows Best</a> is the book. And I am very grateful that someone in this room right now, Molley Ricketts, invited me to be a part of the anthropology. Jason Heflin: I wasn't invited by the way. Jamie Swaim: Because she knows best. Jenna Ahern: And that has always been on my vision board too. My mom passed away last January and it was kind of around that time where I made the decision to go forward. And it was really a therapeutic process for me. Being a part of this collective of these powerful women. And then also being able to be the first to read these stories and sharing it with the world has been pretty fun. Jamie Swaim: Well, I have a copy on my desk I think right now. And I'd love to know, are there any highlights that you'd like to share from your chapter? Or you just want to let people go and buy the book? Jenna Ahern: I think one of the highlights, it's a low light actually. It would be that I really thought that I could scale by just hustling and just keep doing it. And I really have a thick skull and I'm probably still doing it. And so I think what I'm going to say is those that are have read the chapter and do read the chapter, I think that that part in it about you just can't scale hustle or hustle doesn't scale. Jamie Swaim: You can't hustle your way to glory. Jenna Ahern: Yeah. I mean I really waved that flag for a while. And so that was really hard for me to say. Okay, no, and especially with AI right now and everything that we're talking about, that's definitely not going to get you there now. That to me is a part that I would want to highlight. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, no, that's great. We have the amazing assistance of Jim Ray in the room Jenna Ahern: Amazing. Jamie Swaim: Yes. And one of the things he does for our podcast is he puts some show notes together that highlight things like where to find your book. So he'll plug the book in the show notes, right, Jim? Yes. He's given me the nod. Jenna Ahern: Thank you, Jim. Jamie Swaim: But he'll also share how people can get in touch with you. So tell us how you'd like people to reach out to you for your services. Jenna Ahern: You can email me directly at jenna@guardianowldigital.com. Our phone number is (502) 822-6695, and our website is GuardianOwlDigital.com. And if you just search Jenna Ahern in an AI model. Sure. I'll populate. Molley Ricketts: I can't wait to try it. Jenna Ahern: Or She knows Best. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, book. Jenna Ahern: She Knows Best book. Sorry. Molley Ricketts: She Knows Best is completely something different. Jenna Ahern: It's a 180. Molley Ricketts: Stick book in there. Jenna Ahern: I'm a little nervous now. Jason Heflin: And what's the one thing you want those listening, let's say leaders in their organization. What's the one thing, the takeaway that they need to take from this, today? Jenna Ahern: That this is change management. And if you're a leader, you're managing change right now. This is your time to lead and that means that you need to practice. And so, if you are leaning away from this, then maybe you shouldn't be in leadership right now. Molley Ricketts: Mic drop. Jamie Swaim: I'd drop the mic, but Jim would get mad. Jenna Ahern: That it. Jason Heflin: I like. Powerful. Jamie Swaim: Thank you so much for joining us today. Jenna Ahern: Thank you for having me. Molley Ricketts: Thanks Jenna. Jason Heflin: Alright, Jimmy, close that file. That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. To Contact Jenna Ahern: Website: <a href="http://www.GuardianOwlDigital.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.GuardianOwlDigital.com</a> Phone: (502) 822-6695 To Purchase a Copy of She Know Best: <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/She-Knows-Best-Business-Extraordinary/dp/B0G9VHHD59/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3PCYAAK0I5YXB&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tHeM5vdnHrpLwOgTtPo7rIAgA2BboQyO0BRKFY8OSbd7VGqqOZfvaBanusfAH-EBqt3ieOrtBnElzS9gQvAEkNUNdLyYkfaE-YTNz3XpzSn_MRUzeLapuWov6kXwsV1NLb1Zd-t3zCdTOxZoqQnwjtIyM-1ihjqq9DlmCGgTNNjpW5pjwkrNRCIYALoPLwLR4W9EZyVNjQ-x_T2btZVXaog7d-rZw2Aa-TT6r0sAmYw.KttaHZn1reGSpsBwWcJitXwpXaUPhQCF8L_M1Qwxx4A&dib_tag=se&keywords=she+knows+best+book&qid=1780610654&sprefix=%2Caps%2C104&sr=8-1" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Amazon Link</a> Did You Enjoy Today's Conversation? Visit <a href="http://www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com</a> to listen to additional WTF files or to let us know you'd like to be a guest on an upcoming file. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR - <a href="http://www.ParcelKnows.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.ParcelKnows.com</a> · Molley Ricketts - <a href="http://www.IncipioWorks.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.IncipioWorks.com</a> · Jason Heflin - <a href="http://www.CrowdSouth.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.CrowdSouth.com</a> We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

May 25, 2026

Behind the Mic: How Great Podcast Production Builds Strong Brands

File 38: In this episode of Workforce Therapy Files, the hosts turn the tables and interview podcast producer Jim Ray about the growing role of podcasting in business, branding, and thought leadership. Jim explains why authenticity is one of the most important elements of successful business content. The conversation explores why podcasting creates from deeper, more engaging conversations that build long-term brand equity, as compared to traditional blogging and social media. The team validates the coaching and strategic guidance Jim provides clients beyond simply recording audio. This approach helps professionals communicate more effectively and confidently. The group unpacks how podcasting has strengthened their own communication skills, leadership presence, and team collaboration. Listen as the group shares humorous behind-the-scenes stories while also highlighting the discipline and consistency required to build a successful podcast. Today's conversation reinforces podcasting as a powerful platform for education, relationship-building, and business growth. Key Themes: <ul type="disc"> <li class="MsoNormal" style= "mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2;"> Turning the Tables: Interviewing Podcast Producer Jim Ray</li> <li class="MsoNormal" style= "mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2;">The Hidden Work Behind Great Podcast Production</li> <li class="MsoNormal" style= "mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2;">What Separates an Average Podcast from a Great One</li> <li class="MsoNormal" style= "mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2;">Why Authenticity Matters More Than "Going Viral"</li> <li class="MsoNormal" style= "mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2;">From Blogging to Podcasting: The Evolution of Content Marketing</li> <li class="MsoNormal" style= "mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2;">How Podcasting Builds Confidence, Communication, and Brand Authority</li> <li class="MsoNormal" style= "mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2;">The Future of Podcasting and Why Long-Form Content Still Wins</li> </ul> Episode Transcript Jamie Swaim: On this file for workforce therapy files. We are incredibly honored to welcome an amazing guest, and I know I say that often, but today our guest is the person who makes the workforce therapy files possible. Molley Ricketts: Yay. Jamie Swaim: You may have heard him referred to as Jim Jimmy Jumbo. Jason Heflin: I called him Jimothy. Jamie Swaim: Jimothy is one of my personal favorites. Absolutely. The Jumbotron. Molley Ricketts: Did that just happen? Jamie Swaim: It just did. Alright. Jason Heflin: Wow. Jamie Swaim: Yes. Our producer, Jim Ray, welcome to the show, Jim. Jim Ray: Hey, thanks for having me on. Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Jim Ray: Good to see everybody. Jamie Swaim: So I like to start with the most random of questions. So I'm going to ask you to suspend belief for a second and act like you are a burglar who just does pranks. Okay And you sneak into people's homes just to mildly inconvenience them. Okay. So I'm going to give you some examples like mismatching all of their socks, mild inconveniences. What would be the signature prank for Jim Ray? Jim Ray: Throw pillows in the refrigerator because they have to wonder, how did I do that? Why did I do that? Jamie Swaim: He did that that so fast! He was like, I thought about, I've been waiting for the day that someone would ask me. Jim Ray: This was yesterday. What are you talking about? Jamie Swaim: Yes. I love this. I kind of want to round robin this for a second, Jim, because there's a lot of questions we want to ask you, but I'm also curious about the answers of other folks that are on this amazing file. Heflin, what's your prank? Jason Heflin: Oh my gosh. I would probably put different drinks in different bottles so they kind of see what… Jamie Swaim: Yes. Jason Heflin: Milk is in the orange juice and, you know. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, I like it. Molley? Molley Ricketts: I would probably do random things like put an egg in the mayonnaise or put the ketchup in the mustard. Kind of like your drink thing. Just everyday things. And you're going to do it and be like, what the, why is there an egg in the mayonnaise? Jason Heflin: Yeah. What I really like to do is I usually go over to Jamie's house and a hide her keys somewhere. Jamie Swaim: That's you that's doing that? All this time, I thought I was disorganized, you know what I mean? Jason Heflin: No. I sneak in on the weekends and before Monday. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: So what about you? Jamie Swaim: I think I'd break in and leave stuff I no longer need from my house and people would be like, where did this come from? That is what I would like to do to people. Molley Ricketts: It'd be a great way to get rid of stuff. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Because I know I need to declutter. And this would be like two birds, one stone. Yeah. Jason Heflin: I've got a cat. I'll drop off. Jamie Swaim: You'd be like, this dog really gets on my nerves. Jason Heflin: Yeah, yeah. Jamie Swaim: Yes. Jason Heflin: We've got two cats. One of them I like a little. Jamie Swaim: I do have a second alternative and we can put this up to a vote and that would be just in honor of my husband is to go in and just turn all the lights on or put the thermostat to the actual comfortable that everybody's got their degrees. They put it on in the winter. Jim Ray: 68 degrees. Jamie Swaim: 68 in the winter? So then I would go in the winter. Jim Ray: Well, 67 winter. It's an ambient temperature. Jamie Swaim: Oh. I would go in and put Jim's on 70 and just see what happens. You know what I mean? Because the kind of stuff that just… Jim Ray: Next thing you're going to be adjusting my mics and everything else. I get you. Be that person. Jason Heflin: We have one of those thermostats you can control from your phone. Jim Ray: Oh, wow. Jason Heflin: And it is constantly changing. It's probably going to go out within the first year because I'll be like, why is it this temperature? And my wife will be like, why is it this temperature? I'm like, what? I don't know. I didn't touch it. Jamie Swaim: That's when you change it from your phone phone and you're like, it wasn't on there. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you. Good to know what kind of prankster you'd be. Jim Ray: Well, that and leaving random Post-It notes. "Hey, thanks again. Really appreciate it." Jamie Swaim: Who wrote this? Jim Ray: Who wrote that? What is this? Jamie Swaim: I'm not losing my mind. Molley Ricketts: Nice flush. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, nice flush. Wash your hands. Jason Heflin: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: Good reminders. Molley Ricketts: That's great. So today we're interviewing Jim Ray, our producer, and can't wait to learn more about what he does behind the scenes. We get to come into the room and he's got us all set up and ready to go and we crack jokes and he records and then the magic happens. Jim Ray: That's called massive editing. Molley Ricketts: Massive editing. So most people hear the final product, right? They hear us and they see us online producing everything, but we never see what it takes to create it. So today we're flipping the mic. So what does a podcast producer actually do, Jim? Jamie Swaim: Yeah. What do you do? Jason Heflin: What do I do? I've been wondering. Jim Ray: Let me justify myself. No, I think a lot of it really, you guys actually came up with a concept. I mean, you all called me. We literally recorded episode number one in Molley's office just on a, Hey, come out, come over and let's just see if we can figure this out. We went from title, to concept, to what are we going to talk about, to episode one being recorded in about two hours. That's probably the fastest implementation plan ever. Molley Ricketts: So you're saying we're easy to work with? Jim Ray: Well, yeah. It helps when you guys really know why you want to do this. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, I heard "decisive." Molley Ricketts: That's what I heard. Jamie Swaim: Action-oriented. Organized. Jim Ray: Results oriented. Yeah, that's what I heard. No, but you guys all get along and that helps tremendously. You guys feed off of each other so well, and I think that comes through in the content, right? So that makes the editing a lot easier. There's not a lot of times where you guys get stuck when you're doing multiple people on the mic at the same time, somebody else can step right in. So there's not any dead air in there. It's just a great conversation. You guys each have your respective competencies. So from that standpoint, you're constantly, okay, here's the next level, the next level, whether it's going deeper or just going further in the conversation. That makes it easy because I don't have to pull you along and try to help you guys come up with the messaging. You have it and it's just a matter of delivery. My job is just to make sure that one, we sound as good as we can on the mics, which is fantastic for you guys, in terms of what we're able to do with the mic quality. Beyond that, you guys just keep bringing guests. You guys keep bringing ideas, your ability to kind of walk into the room and sometimes the episodes are really well planned out. Other times it's, Hey, okay, let's come up with something on the fly. And actually some of those are the better episodes just because it's organic and it's right there and you guys just play off each other. So the big part of my stuff is making sure that the sound is good, making sure the distribution is ready to go, and then kicking it over to Jason's team for uploading to the website and social media. But you guys execute and that makes it fun. Molley Ricketts: So what do you think separates a good podcast from a great one? Jim Ray: Interesting. I think knowing the purpose of the podcast. So many times I'll have somebody who's interested in doing a podcast and they walk in and they think they're going to be the next Joe Rogan, and it's just not going to happen. Molley Ricketts: What? It's not going to happen? Maybe in the next year. Jim Ray: You guys are on your way. But you haven't arrived, but it's keeping you enthusiastic along the way. No, you guys understand the "why" each of you work in the HR space. Each of you work in staffing and workforce development, so that helps. Even from the marketing standpoint, a lot of your clients, Jason, are large hirers who need help. And so you're in this game as well. And so again, you guys all have a common mission and that works well. What's interesting about you guys is you're actually three unique businesses and you guys are coming together as a collaborative podcast, which I think is a great way to do it. But you're coming at it with different perspectives. You're not getting the same sheet of music, you're not getting the same lines that are inside. So the fact is you guys know what you're looking at and what you're trying to accomplish, and I think that makes you much better than average. Great? We're still going. I think eventually if we can get into video, I think that takes it to another level. But right now, I mean you guys are overperforming, you're always enthusiastic and you've got really good content. Jason Heflin: So this is the Jim Ray way, by the way. We're asking him questions about himself and he just turns and starts talking about us because he's a complimenter. He brings other people up. That's what he does. Molley Ricketts: And he does. Jason Heflin: And I think that's what makes, I mean, I'm going to go ahead and put it out there, but I think that's what makes you such a great producer is you're constantly, you're part of the process too. We're in here doing this, but you're that other voice of reason and you check us. Well, what if you tried it this way? What if you tried it that way? What if you started this way? So you are a bit of a director as well. It's not like we're in here just talking. I mean, before we get started, we map everything out on the board. You help us do that. You kind of check some of the things we say. You think about it from the audience perspective versus just us. Here's what we want to say. And you talk about how it's going to be received. So I think there's a lot of directing too, not just producing in it. What do you think about that? Jim Ray: No, that's a real good point. And I think that's more and more you're seeing little podcast studios pop up and people going, Hey, come on in. We'll do a podcast. And really what it seems to be is more of I've got a mic and the software, you bring your voice and talk. Here's your recording. And that's only going to go so far. That's why a lot of people burn out. The majority of podcasts never reach 10 episodes. They literally never reach 10 episodes. I just think it's different. I think it's more involved than what people think. A big, coming back to your point, Jason, a big part of this is the coaching aspect is being able to watch outside of the bubble saying, okay, here's what you guys are doing. Does that make sense? Hey, what if you tilted it this way? Some of what we do process-wise was because early on, you guys let me become a little bit more involved in the origination and how are we going to set up this process? And now you guys have got it. You run with it. This is what you do when you come in. So yeah, I think the coaching aspect is my differentiator rather than, Hey, I've got a place you can come in and talk on the mic. That gets boring real quickly. Jason Heflin: You work with a lot of podcasters or professionals that are starting podcasts. Do they all come in with a fully formed idea? Jim Ray: Not really. Some of them know they want to do it. Some of them are unaware that podcasting might be a marketing option for them. They're thinking blogs. They're thinking social media. They're thinking, I got to buy a Google pay-per-click ad or something like that. They haven't really thought about podcasting because they're thinking more of the Joe Rogan's, the Martha Stewarts, the true crime novels. They haven't really seen it as business content. But very quickly, I can kind of take that kernel and turn it on its side and go, no, this is why this would be more important to you and the organization at large. And then when I can get a group of professionals who are talking, that becomes a lot more interesting because it's not just one person droning on and on and on like I'm doing in this very answer, but it's more that feedback and that playing off of each other that it just adds to the conversation. Jason Heflin: And I think a lot of people come in thinking, I am going to be the next big podcast star. I think one misconception that I see is that those people that are really successful at podcasting typically have stardom to begin with. The Martha Stewarts, the Joe Rogans. Jamie Swaim: Don't forget Amy Pohler. Jason Heflin: Yeah, Amy Pohler. Jason Bateman, all the big podcasts out there right now. Jim Ray: They're playing off of a foundation. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, they've already got that. I think for us, it took a while to get some steam in the engine and we're at several thousand listeners downloads whatever now. And you've got several podcasts that are in that bucket, right? I mean, among all your podcasts, you probably have tens and tens of thousands of listeners. So I mean, that's a testament to creating good content. And I think if anyone out there is thinking about creating a podcast, Jim's the perfect person to talk to because he's going to coach you through it. He's going to question some of the things that you're doing so that you can make it better. Any idea that comes out of your head's not going to be fully-formed, so it needs a little bit of massaging. And Jim's a great masseuse. He's a great podcast masseuse. Jim Ray: There you go. Molley Ricketts: Podcast masseuse. Jim Ray: Podcast masseuse. I'll put that my business card. Jamie Swaim: I don't why it wasn't already. Jim Ray: Well, Molley's got head honcho on hers, so maybe podcast masseuse. There you go. Jason, Jason actually runs, owns and runs a marketing agency down in Bowling Green. And so you kind see some of this, and I really appreciate the fact that you're pointing some of that out because I think, again, a lot of people just don't know what to do with this medium. They like the idea, but what am I going to talk about? Who's going to listen? It's about consistency. It's really about consistency. You guys have gone several seasons now. There are things that you guys are doing. We've been to the Kentucky SHRM conference a couple of times now. There's just a rhythm and it becomes, I think, a little bit easier, but it also builds up that audience expectation, which is, again, that's fun when you're getting feedback, when you're getting other guests coming on going, oh, I really like this. It's just some validation for the people who are actually trying to do it. So it's not always, Hey, I got this new client. Some of it's just the brand positioning and each of you have your own respective brands, but I think this combined conversation actually helps with that. Jamie Swaim: I think it feels way less intimidating now, too. I don't know about you guys, but whenever we first got started in my head, I was picturing the tens of thousands of people that were going to be listening to us (side eye), but I didn't know how comfortable I'd feel, and it felt very much like a public speaking experience versus now, it feels very much like we're hanging out in an office together and talking about something that we all feel really excited to talk about. I'm curious though, Jim, because I'm a people person, so I want to know your hero origin story. Is this the career you thought you would have whenever you graduated from college, or how did you get here? Jim Ray: Absolutely not. This is not at all what I thought. I grew up with my grandmother. My grandmother was actually blind, so the way I communicated with my grandmother, even as a small child, had to be much more descriptive. So verbally, I was always pretty good. I ended up in sales. I did sales and sales management for 20, 30 years now, and then eventually in my own company when I was doing things such as web development and coaching and things like that, that was fine, but that became commoditized. When Google finally blessed podcasting is a legit form of content for search and everything else that made perfect sense. Within three months, I had a product and a service on the street and did very well that first year. And you learn as you iterate, you just get better and better and better, and you learn ways to improve the quality. Ways to improve the efficiency, and ways to talk a little bit differently with different groups of clients. This is what I do. This is the majority of my revenue stream now as a business. It's just fun. I mean, it is really fun. You guys had asked when you first came in this morning about something that I'm excited about. We just launched a podcast for a different organization, but it's a nonprofit that I got to have a hand in and we hit the deadline, we got everything going. We went from concept to delivery, and it's been a great journey. So that kind of stuff, I like when the light bulbs go off and you're helping somebody. I don't have to be in the spotlight. That's why I don't mind being the producer. I don't need to be in the spotlight, but I get a tremendous amount of joy on watching you guys have a great time and knowing that we're putting something else out there in the ethos that's actually going to help promote your respective brands. I love that stuff. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. I would imagine also that being in the seat that you get to sit in, that you've learned all kinds of amazing things that you had no idea you even wanted to learn about. So what was the topic that you were like, I get to know that information today, or I learned something new and you were super excited to learn it? Jim Ray: Well, I think as we started looking more at video podcasting, I was a purist, right? The reason I like podcasts is because I think I can put my earbuds in and I can multi-task. I can do other things, but I'll still listen to that content. As someone who was a content creator, I used to write a tremendous amount of blogs for law firms all over the state of Kentucky. I used to do a lot of video work, and I really liked those media, those formats. But when you're doing this and you know it's a podcast, I always thought, well, the reason it works is because I'm not competing for your attention. I'm going to ride along with you. I'm going to go with you while you're shopping, exercising, whatever, driving the kids to school, whatever you're doing. I held back on video for a long time, but now it's becoming more and more prevalent, and now I'm able to step in. I'm going, you know what? I'm actually beginning to pull that off, that it's actually looking better and better. I've got a long way to go. I am not a videographer, I'm not a video producer, but I understand the reason for the media format and how to put it to work, and if I can continue to do that on a bigger scale, so much the better. Yeah. Jason Heflin: This is a business question, how much bandwidth do you have for those listening? If they're like, I want to start a podcast, but this guy sounds like he's busy or expensive, or maybe he's a little bit more advanced than what I'm capable of, maybe I'm not ready. Dor those listening that are thinking those thoughts. What would you say? Jim Ray: Well, let me start with this because I think this is one of the more important impediments there. If you have headphones or earbuds and an iPhone, you could do conceivably a podcast, whether it's effective or not, or the quality that represents your brand best, that's up to you. That's personal interpretation. As far as what I do is I give you guys back something you don't have enough of, and that's time. I tell my clients, look, I need you for about an hour and a half, once a month. Come on in. We'll do a couple of episodes back to back. I'll fully produce them. I'll edit them and I'll dose them out. Usually every other week, a new episode goes live. So my bandwidth demands are not that much in terms of, oh my gosh, I'm just totally swamped right now, because I can choose when I decide to edit that episode. If I know you've come in and you've put several episodes together, I've already got them recorded. I don't need to chase you down. I can wake up early on a Saturday morning and knock out an episode. I can stay up late on a Wednesday night and just take care of some other finder points on the editing process. It's not all that, I won't say it's not taxing, but I've got a lot more bandwidth because again, as a solo, I choose when I want to do this. If I want to stay at work, because I love what I'm doing, for a couple of extra hours, I get to do that. All I have to worry about really is hitting the deadline. When does this have to go live? And for most of my clients, we have a scheduled go-live date. It's usually in the morning and it's a certain day of the week. So once we have that scheduled out, I've got time to get there, and it's just a matter of how I want to actually get there. I get to do all the sausage-making that you guys don't have to see. That was the theme of this episode, I guess. But yeah, the bandwidth is there. Will it get tighter and tighter? Yeah, it's supposed to, but that doesn't mean I can't bring on somebody else to help out with some of it. And there are ways, there are just things I'm learning to do now that I didn't know three and four or five years ago that make me a little bit more efficient today. Jason Heflin: Yeah. What do you think the future of podcasting is? Jim Ray: I think this becomes the predominant medium, and I'm not just saying that because, hey, Jim has a hammer, so every problem starts to look like a nail Jamie Swaim: Well, when Netflix started to add podcast as something that's on their streaming platform, I felt really surprised by that because it's not normally considered a visual medium, but it's become a lot more than that. Jim Ray: This is what blogging was 10, 15 years ago, and if you were in content production or content development or any kind of marketing, you understood the impact that blogs were having. This is just a different format of blog. I think people are getting so tired of the short form, the TikTok oriented format where, okay, it's entertainment value, but you can't really get substance out there. Whereas in a podcast, you can do a deep dive. You can really explore a topic, and this may be an episode that I later on forward to a prospective client to give them some more insights into how I think about a certain topic, or maybe we had a great conversation, I can record it one time and distribute it to 300 different clients if I were a larger organization, had the need to do so. It's evergreen. It lives forever. Even if you stop producing new episodes, it's still out there as long as you're paying the hosting fee, it's still out there. So again, you've got residual equity. I've always told people, look, if you're going to do any kind of marketing, make sure you're building equity so that if you stop, it's still producing for you. It's not a pay-per-click ad or a television commercial, a radio commercial, a billboard. Once I stop, it goes away and nobody ever knew it was there to begin with. Something like a podcast, which is a deep dive discussion, actually has residual value day after day, week after week, quarter after quarter, year after year. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So Jim, when you hear ideas that people may bring you, what do you think that business leaders should really understand about podcasting as a platform? So you said this is the new blog. What are some things to consider when you're talking to a business leader about considering a podcast? Jim Ray: I think you've got to be willing to be authentic. I mean, if you come in with a mask, over time, people are going to see that mask slip. You're going to make a comment that doesn't align with that image you were trying to convey. If you're just yourself, most of the time, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for authenticity because I get sales pitches every day. We all do. If you own or run a business, you're inundated with sales pitches, and some of them are pretty daggone good. But I don't know, okay, once I buy it, is it going to deliver? Is it going to meet the expectations? The same goes for you if you're doing a podcast, depending on what the idea here is. I want to have thought leaders who want to come in and share their knowledge, and that's what the three of you guys do. You're not actively hard selling. You're providing terrific information in an entertaining format that makes me want to align more closely with your brand. You heighten my curiosity. Jamie Swaim: You actually remind us to, don't forget, say your company's name from time to time. Jim Ray: Yeah. We put that in all the show notes, links out to everything. I mean, yeah, sometimes you get wrapped up into it. Again, because I'm outside of the bubble, I get to look at the other little aspects that are actually critically important. Oh, by the way, here's how you get ahold of me. Things like that. But once you kind of get that down again, for somebody that's thinking about doing this, especially a C-level executive, do I have the time? You don't have the time not to do this, because if I'm going to hire the company, I want to know what the leadership thinks. I want to know how you think. I want to know why I should be considering that. And wow, okay. So now you're conveying it at a time where I can consume it when it's most convenient to me. Now that shows that you're putting me first as a client. Now I'm more interested because you're more aligned with my value system, ideally. I mean, we're not selling retail products. These are corporate strategies. These are important topics. It's a different way to go to market Jamie Swaim: For leaders that are listening right now. One of the things I'd like to highlight that I don't know that I've ever told you this, Jim, but since starting this podcast, one of the things I've gotten more comfortable with is those moments where you're in ad hoc conversation with somebody that doesn't know you very well, and finding new ways to communicate that resemble more clearly my tone and voice. It's one of the reasons, for example, why blogs are starting to feel stale to me because of how many creators are using AI as their content source. Right? But whenever I feel like whenever we get on a microphone and we're able to have a conversation and be ourselves, that has now translated into my work life. So I will make small videos for my team, giving them updates, answering questions that have been posed, rather than just responding in the written way or doing something that's more stale. It's in the moment, and my team loves it. Absolutely loves it. So to me, this is skill-building. And with your tutelage, That's a thing, right? Yeah. Did I make that word up? That's a great word. Molley Ricketts: This just came from nowhere, but I'm impressed. Jamie Swaim: We're growing skills because of the opportunity to be able to do this with you. Jason Heflin: And vocabulary. Jamie Swaim: Vocabulary and vocabulary. Yes. Jim Ray: No, I think when you're on the mic, even though we're not live at any given time, we still have room to edit. It brings out your truest sense of self. I mean, if you've ever written a blog post, how many times have you gone back and self-edited? Okay, wait a minute. That doesn't sound right. No. What are people going to think? You put all these friction points in the process, which is why they take longer, and they usually don't get done consistently. Whereas when you're talking, you're just having a conversation about something you already know with people whom you like. And I think that's what your truest sense of self actually comes out, and that comes back to the authenticity, which is really what the market wants most. And so, yeah, no, I appreciate you saying that. It's a confidence-builder for all the other things that you're doing. Jamie Swaim: It's a comfort builder as well, just to be who you are and to lean into what are the things that you know about a particular topic, because that shows up in a lot of different ways, whether or not you have it or you don't. Jim Ray: Well, what's funny is if you go back and you go back to episode one, file number one for Workforce Therapy Files… Jamie Swaim: I don't know if I ever want to do that. Jim Ray: Well, no. Listen to the first two episodes and ask yourself, wow, how much different do they sound now? The flow is there. I mean, you guys are on lock and it, it's not really work. It's not, oh my gosh. We have had times where we come in and said, okay, what are we going to talk about today? And we put the outline on the board and went, and it actually turned out great, because again, you guys have the process down. This is about reps and muscle memory. Once you get that down, you're already subject matter experts. So you just allow that to come out. Again, let's get the friction out of the way and let the knowledge flow, and that's what you guys do. Jason Heflin: And I'm going to connect a few dots really quick because it was kind of under an undertone, but we talked about blogs and how I think a lot of people are still like, well, I'm a blogger. I'm blogging. Blogging is how I get my content out. But then you mentioned show notes earlier, and it made me think, one thing that I think folks don't think about who are currently blogging and using that as their content medium, is that Jim produces a transcript of every episode. It's chock-full of keywords and things that we talked about and the topics, and that all goes into blog posts. So if you're concerned about, let's say, your website's SEO, and oh, but my blogs really contribute to my SEO because they're continually feeding the algorithm. Well, this is just more content. So you can continue to blog and supplement with podcasting at first, and then at some point, some people just say, I'm just going to do more podcasting and just upload that content. So it's a new way of thinking, and sometimes it's hard, but it still ties back to all the old platforms we use. Jim Ray: And again, you run a marketing agency, so you guys blog. You guys produce a tremendous amount of content for your own clients, I would imagine. So I look at it this way. I used to get paid a decent amount of money to actually sit down and write a six paragraph blog post for, say a law firm, on a consistent basis. And I know how much time it took me to come up with a title, come up with some subtitles, maybe a nice image, some bullet points, and some pithy content ultimately to get down to the call to action. Molley Ricketts: So we're just Webster here today. Jim Ray: Pithy you like that? You like, okay, great. So I knew what it would take to do that, and they'd get six, seven paragraphs maybe. If we have a 15 minute conversation, how many paragraphs did we just create? It's infinitely more. It's infinite. So much less time to create and much more in terms of context, content and just overall quality of experience for the listener. Now you start looking at derivative products. Now, okay, so I've got that. I've got the blog post and I've got this say, audio podcast. Now I can splice that up into outtakes snippets, if you will. That can go on the social media. I can take the transcript and now I can convert that over into a separate blog post from the transcript or the audio. I've got that. And then I can break that down even further for additional social media. And oh, by the way, the whole time linking it back and forth to previous and related pages and websites. It's just so much more effective. Jason Heflin: The mileage you get out of it is incredible. Jim Ray: Exactly. Jamie Swaim: I also really appreciate that the show notes, and Jason mentioned this, but you're very careful not just to provide a transcript, but you get a link to each of us in the bottom of the show notes. Jim Ray: To your guests as well Jamie Swaim: To our guests. We've used it as an opportunity to plug books that were mentioned from previous guests. And I don't know that every podcast provides that level of content to serve as supporting information if somebody wanted to go and reference it quickly, instead of having to go back and try to be like, was that at minute 20 or 21? And I really appreciate the production of those show notes. It's been very helpful for me in figuring out which episode I wanted to refer back to for different engagements. Jim Ray: Well, yeah, and there's always going to be a key phrase in there that might relate to a previous episode or something like that. But again, that comes back to that coaching mentality, those competitive advantages that I think I bring as a podcast producer is I'm not just saying here, just talking to the mic and I'll give you a recording. I'm going to do all these follow on assets that make it more powerful, that make it much more effective, and that serve additional purposes. All of this should be weaving together a constant theme based on what you do. You guys are in HR, okay, great. You're in marketing, so it should be doing all of those different things together so that you're just pounding your website and all these other social media platforms with great on-point, consistent, authoritative content. That's why I think podcasting, when you ask, where's it going? I think podcasts becomes the preferred medium. Molley Ricketts: Okay. I've got a very important question to ask Jim. Jim Ray: Five seven. Molley Ricketts: I thought it was 6 7. No, thank you, Jim. Jamie Swaim: Jim, starting a new trend. Molley Ricketts: HR nightmare. So Jim, what do you think is the best episode for Workforce Therapy Files? So far? Jamie Swaim: Putting you on the spot. Wow. Molley Ricketts: Your favorite the best? Jason Heflin: This one. Jim Ray: The ones that talk about me. Let's see. You guys did <a href="https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/podcast/spooky-recruiting-issues/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> a Halloween themed one</a>, which was kind of interesting. That was creative. That was good. Jamie Swaim: Spooky recruiting stories. Jim Ray: Yeah. Early on, you guys were bringing in much more data. I think you were bringing in <a href= "https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/podcast/understanding-what-the-labor-statistics-indicate/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> Bureau of Labor Statistics data</a>, and that was informative. Jamie Swaim: That one was one of my favorites too, though. We went through the Workforce Report. Molley Ricketts: That was two episodes, wasn't it? Yeah. Jim Ray: You guys have brought in other, just thought leaders. You brought in <a href= "https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/podcast/how-curious-is-your-organization-an-interview-with-deb-clary/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> Dr. Deborah Clary</a>, who really is doing her own thing after just a terrific executive career, and now she's off into coaching and it launched a new book and things like that. What I love is the miniseries. The <a href= "https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/kyshrm/kyshrm-2025-brad-shuck-phd/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> miniseries that we do from SHRM</a> where we'll go do a popup podcast there for two days and we'll come back and we'll get 20-30 podcast episodes, mini-interviews, out of that. And it keeps producing for you all. But at the same time, just the tone of those many impromptu discussions are just fun. I mean, watching you guys just be in the moment and just having fun at a conference, a trade show, whatever. Molley Ricketts: I mean, we're a pretty good time. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, that's true. Jim Ray: You guys are a good time. Jamie Swaim: You should hear us when we don't talk about work. Jim Ray: No. So to come back to say just one, no, there are different styles and formats that you guys have done that I think each have their own benefits and they're going to resonate with different types of audience members, right? Not everybody wants the casual, they want the more authoritative data-specific. You guys deliver that as well. Jamie Swaim: I think I'm hearing Jim say it's hard to choose which one says favorite. Molley Ricketts: That's what I think too. Jim Ray: The answer is D, all of the above. Yeah, there we go. Jason Heflin: Which one of your kids do you love the most? Molley Ricketts: So do you think of a conversation and think, man, Workforce Therapy Files needs to talk about that? Jim Ray: Yeah. I think from time to time, I'll send you guys an email with just a, Hey, here's a video that I saw, or here's an article, or, Hey, this is interesting. You guys could develop something off of that. And I think, again, having something that's also looking to promote your authoritative information. Sometimes you just don't think, we all kind of get in our own silos and we're thinking, well, this is what I usually talk about. And then somebody throws something over the wall and you're like, oh, that's cool. Let me see where that goes. I try to do that as well. I think that, again, it is part of the coaching. How can I make you guys more successful at what you're doing? Sometimes it's topic selection. Some topics just seem to resonate and everybody's in it. Sometimes not as much, but it's still good information, right? So if we can start to look at different sources of information for a potential topic, I like doing that. It just keeps it fresh, keeps it fun. Not that you guys have the problem with keeping it fun. Jamie Swaim: Jim. So the listeners are saying, I can do it. I can do a podcast. I know I can. Now I feel confident. What's the first step? How do they get in touch with you? How do they get started? Jim Ray: I appreciate you saying that. I think the easiest thing is let's have a conversation to make sure that your expectations are realistic from the outset. Not that they can't evolve into something even bigger, but let's have a conversation. There are a number of different ways to get to me. My website is JimRayConsultingServices.com. You can just call me here at the office, (502) 208-9639. Probably the easiest way to grab me, just say, Hey, send me a text to that number. Actually, Hey, I heard you on the podcast thinking about doing my own. Can we chat? Easy, easy, easy, easy peasy. Jamie Swaim: Jim, will you put that in the show notes? Jim Ray: Yeah, great idea. Okay, great idea. Yeah, I'll put links to all that. Jamie Swaim: And if Jim doesn't answer the phone, he's probably recording an amazing podcast, so he will call you back ASAP. Jim Ray: Or a podcast that features me. But yeah, so it'll all be good. No, but guys, I appreciate it. This is kind of fun to turn the tables a little bit and actually be on the mic with you. So I really appreciate the opportunity here. Jamie Swaim: I think you were just as good on this side of the mic. Jim Ray: What? I mean, I've done this a couple of times, just once or twice. But no, I appreciate you guys saying that. But thanks for the opportunity. And the fact is you guys are producing just different types of content at a higher-level one than when you originally started. It's just come that much further, but it's just fun watching you guys in your zone. Anytime I can watch a group of high-performers just actually get together and actually do what they do best, it's just fun. I mean, it's literally fun. Jamie Swaim: Well, thank you for agreeing to get on this side of the table and Jim Ray of Jim Ray Consulting Services. Close that file, close that file. That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. To Contact Podcast Producer Jim Ray: Website: <a href="http://www.JimRayConsultingServices.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">www.JimRayConsultingServices.com</a> Phone: (502) 208-9639 Did You Enjoy Today's Conversation? Visit <a href="http://www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com</a> to listen to additional WTF files or to let us know you'd like to be a guest on an upcoming file. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR - <a href="http://www.ParcelKnows.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.ParcelKnows.com</a> · Molley Ricketts - <a href="http://www.IncipioWorks.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.IncipioWorks.com</a> · Jason Heflin - <a href="http://www.CrowdSouth.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.CrowdSouth.com</a> We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

May 11, 2026

Why HR Is Still Misunderstood in Business Leadership?

File 37: In this file of Workforce Therapy Files, the hosts turn the spotlight on Jamie Swaim to explore her journey into human resources and leadership strategy. Jamie discusses why HR is often misunderstood in executive spaces and explains the difference between reactive HR support and proactive people strategy. They explore workforce planning, compliance challenges, and the growing complexity of managing people across multiple states and industries. The discussion highlights the importance of ambiguity management, resourcefulness, and cross-functional thinking for modern HR leaders. The group reflects on how meaningful relationships, mentorship, and practical experience have shaped Jamie's approach to leadership. The conversation reinforces the idea that strong HR strategy is deeply connected to business success and organizational trust. Key Themes: · Beyond the Support Desk: Why Executives Misunderstand HR · Proactive Workforce Planning: Scaling Without Surprises · The State-Line Trap: Navigating Multi-State Compliance Risks · From Middle School Passion to HR "Encyclopedia" · The Three Pillars of Modern HR: Ambiguity, Resourcefulness, and Empathy · Real Talk Over Theory: The Inspiration Behind Parcel Episode Transcript Jason Heflin: Welcome back to the Workforce therapy files. Today we're doing something really fun. It's the final in our series of interviewing the founders of our podcast. And we got Jamie Swain, one of my favorite people. Jamie Swaim: CEO. Jason Heflin: CEO. President. Supreme Leader. Molley Ricketts: Grand Poo-bah. Jason Heflin: Grand Poo-bah. Jamie Swaim: That's my personal preference. I'm just kidding. Jason Heflin: So thanks for being here today and taking some time out of your busy schedule. Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Jason Heflin: Absolutely. I'm going to kick it off with some questions for your if you're ready. Jamie Swaim: I'm ready. Jason Heflin: Okay. So this is us interviewing Jamie as if we just didn't even know her. Molley Ricketts: Okay. Beyond the Support Desk: Why Executives Misunderstand HR Jason Heflin: So we may know some of the answers to these, but going to, I bet we're going to be surprised. Jamie, why is HR still misunderstood in the executive room? Jamie Swaim: I think it's because the day-to-day interactions before you become an executive with HR are support focused. They're compliance focused, and the further the individuals go in the HR space, the more it's strategy focused. And sometimes people ascend to the executive space before they've ever seen HR as a strategy. I think that's the biggest issue. And so they still want to interact as like, Hey, can you pull this report for me? Can you file this for me? Instead of, can you help me think through how our people will be impacted by this business need or this projected route that my company is going to go down? I think that's the biggest area that's misunderstood. Jason Heflin: Yeah, that's good. And it's true. I mean, it's easy to get disconnected or not be connected in the first place. Well, what's the difference between HR support and people strategy? Jamie Swaim: Yeah. I think the biggest difference is that support's in the moment largely it is reacting to what the challenges of right now and appropriate behavior, performance concern bubbled up. How do I help you through this navigate this tricky water moment that you're experiencing right now? Strategy to me is how do I make sure that the things we're putting in place right now align to where you want the company to go, but it takes being partners in that and understanding where companies want to go to be able to put strategies in place. Jason Heflin: Would you say it's proactive thinking over reactive thinking? Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Jason Heflin: So I'm going to go off script a little bit. Jamie Swaim: That's fine. Proactive Workforce Planning: Scaling Without Surprises Jason Heflin: What's a quick thing that people can do to be better at that, to be better at that strategic long-term planning and thinking. Jamie Swaim: In terms of people? Jason Heflin: In terms of their people, in terms of talent. Jamie Swaim: I think the biggest one for me is really creating a workforce plan. Every year, companies get together and they say, what are the goals that we're going to have for this year? What are the budgets we're going to have for this year? And sometimes those are the only two things that leaders will do together to plan for their company. And they're not thinking through what that means from a people perspective. So you get surprised things like, we need to hire 45 people because we're supposed to start this on Tuesday. You're like, gosh, I wish I'd known that whenever I was putting together my team for this year. And those kinds of things can't continue to happen. If you want a seamless execution, if you don't want to do things like we've cautioned on this podcast, like hiring quick or not building intentionality in how you scale and grow or contract. Even having conversations of like, I'm not really sure that based on our sales forecast that we're going to be able to sustain this workforce. Okay, well, here's our turnover number. Do we want to just let natural attrition happen and not backfill it? Or are there other things that we'd like to do? We can have conversations about that upfront that save you some of the things that you sacrifice and the trust that you have with the people that work there. The State-Line Trap: Navigating Multi-State Compliance Risks Jason Heflin: Yeah. Good. I'm going to use a scary word in this next one called compliance. We've been talking in my company a lot about compliance. There's a new Americans with Disabilities Act law coming into effect in April. All websites, government, healthcare, all the major service websites have to be ADA compliant. Molley Ricketts: How? Jamie Swaim: There's a lot of things. Molley Ricketts: How will they be ADA compliant? Jason Heflin: ADA compliance for websites is visual and audio. So if somebody has a visual disability or can't hear, and there's audio or video on the site. Jamie Swaim: Also color considerations. Jason Heflin: You have two similar colors of blue are sitting next to each other that are too close. People can't tell the difference. Different fonts, the readers can't read them to people. So anyway, that's a side journey. Molley Ricketts: Sorry, didn't know. Jamie Swaim: But we're all learning. Jason Heflin: But I've been talking about compliance half the day every day for the last few weeks. So it's scary. People are like, what comply I have to comply? Yes, yes. It's a minimum of $115,000 fine. So now are they going to, who knows if these compliances are going to be enforced or not? Somebody's going to have to call you out. Probably won't. But compliance is scary when people bring it up. So what's the biggest compliance risk companies are ignoring in the space of hiring and people and talent? Jamie Swaim: I think the biggest one from my perspective is when we're thinking about scaling and growth and ignoring the fact that compliance is bigger than just federal law. So every state in our country has a different set of requirements. And so, choosing to scale might also mean that you need to choose how you're going to support your organization with additional requirements. And it can't always be absorbed by the two people you gave to the HR team. So, you're in 45 states. Well, that might mean that I have two more people that are necessary just to be able to do the basics. And that's not counting the other meaningful things that the function can offer. And it's not just in HR. That's true for safety. It's true for finance requirements, tax laws, how the unemployment's set up, how workers' comp is set up. All of it is down to the state line. And I don't think companies always think about that, especially if founders or growing company CEOs have not worked in that space before. If they haven't hired an HR expert that they're spending time with, it may not be something that they pay attention to. The second one though, that is also something I stay with my head on pivot right now is immigration laws. It's a growing space, and for some industries, you got to stay really connected to it, especially in rural medical settings, agriculture, people with highly-skilled workforces where you've got individuals on a lot of visas. Paying attention to where we are from an immigration standpoint is going to be really important to make sure you have the right budgets and support to navigate it. Jason Heflin: And it doesn't have to be scary. Right? Jamie Swaim: It doesn't have to be scary. But here's the thing. We need to all accept the fact that the people that write these laws are not people that are executing the work. So they don't always write them in ways that are so clear that you're like, oh, okay, well that's step one. I understand that. And they don't always provide the tools to help you do it well. So finding someone who understands the ways that companies have bumped their heads on this is it's worth the time and it's worth the investment to have somebody that you can trust to help you navigate it. Molley Ricketts: Can I get an amen? Jamie Swaim: Thank you. From Middle School Passion to HR "Encyclopedia" Jason Heflin: Can I ask you another off-script question? I'm going to start with a compliment. So you are probably the most knowledgeable person when it comes to these type of topics, like the technicality of human resources. Jamie Swaim: That Jason knows. Jason Heflin: Yeah. So I don't know many, but no, but seriously, you really are. And whenever you dive into these things, it's like you could just keep going and keep going because you've seen so much. How did you learn all this? You're an encyclopedia. What's your backstory? This is about getting to know Jamie. So what's your backstory? How'd you get here? How did you become such a brainiac? Jamie Swaim: Actually, I think part of it is because I was born that way. No, I'm just kidding. I decided I was going to be in HR in middle school, which I know is not when a lot of people make those choices. Molley Ricketts: You were 12? Jamie Swaim: Yes. And I had a situation where one of my family members had applied for a position that they were already doing and had been doing it for six months and they didn't get the job. And then the person that was hired, they were asked to train. Molley Ricketts: Oh. Jamie Swaim: For months. For months. It was a promotion. And then the hiring manager asked that person if they ever planned on losing weight? And I don't know whether or not the decision to do that was connected, but there's no way that you would disconnect it, if you were somebody who was on the receiving end of that. And I remember being in middle school and being like, what a dumb way to make business decisions. So, when I got to high school, I had a whole conversation with my guidance counselor, because this is pre-internet, just so we're clear. I had a conversation with my guidance counselor and I said, I just want to be part of how do you influence these kinds of decisions so that they're not made based on things that don't actually drive value. And for some reason, this was very interesting to me. It's like I grew a passion about it. So, I got really involved in things like Junior Achievement and those kinds of things, and I just enjoyed learning about it. So then I was looking at a college, my guidance counselor said, there's two that we could find in Kentucky that had an HR track. It was just at the beginning of no longer calling it Personnel. And so we were moving into this HR space and here was the outlook. And I knew I wanted to affect business, but I didn't want to be an accountant and I didn't want to work in finance. And this really spoke to me because I really, I'm going to give you the generic thing that everybody who first gets started in HR says is I love people, but sorry, it gets on my nerves now. But at the beginning, that was how I felt too. I felt like, how can I help people? But then this is in the early parts of the internet to get started. I had this crazy CEO, and if you're listening to this, you know exactly who you are. Crazy CEO, who promoted me before I was ready. And he said, I'm going to give you two things. I'm going to give you an attorney that you can call. Shout out to Jim Smith, and I'm going to give you a consultant that you can use because I think you have the right heart and I think you have the right mind for things. But I know that there are going to be things that we're going to come across that you don't have experience to tackle. And I used those relationships in every possible way. I read every SHRM magazine. I dove into every piece of content that I could get to try to learn these things. I actually read the Family Medical Leave Act. My gosh, I ordered that. Jason Heflin: Nerd. Jamie Swaim: Right? Molley Ricketts: Totally. Jamie Swaim: I ordered it and the Fair Labor Standards Act, and I read it word for word because I thought I needed to. Okay. Which I don't know that you need to. Molley Ricketts: Not word for word. Jamie Swaim: There's stuff in there you don't even come across. But that's how I grew my knowledge around these things because I thought that's what it meant to be in HR. And this was before I started learning other things. Long answer, I think Jason, but… Jason Heflin: Good answer. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. I'm a nerd. I guess is if you wanted to underline something twice what the answer is. Molley Ricketts: But I love that nerdiness about you. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. Molley Ricketts: Because that means that someone like me, I can lean into you the same way that you leaned into those two people because I know you're going to be the best. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. Gosh. Molley Ricketts: So when you think about how far you've come and everything that you've experienced, and I know that I get to talk to you sometimes when I'm like, I don't know what the heck I'm supposed to be doing right now. And you're like, you know what? Let's talk through it. And I always love that about you. You give me the grace when sometimes you know that I know the answer, but you need to help me walk through it to find it together. Jamie Swaim: By the way, one of the biggest privileges I have in my life is to be behind the curtain with people before they take it and deliver it to someone else. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: It took me a while to get my head around it that way. So thank you for allowing me the opportunity to be with you behind the curtain. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, always. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. The Three Pillars of Modern HR: Ambiguity, Resourcefulness, and Empathy Molley Ricketts: So you've come through the ranks. You've lived like me through different seasons of what it means to be in HR. Started out as Personnel and HR and human capital. I think we went through a phase of that and gosh, I don't even know what else. Jamie Swaim: People. Now we're just a people. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So, what capabilities do you think HR has to have now that maybe you didn't have to have 10 years ago? What capabilities must HR leaders have now or learn now, build now that you didn't have to 10 years ago, 5 years ago? Jamie Swaim: I'm going to say this because some of it is that I didn't know I needed it 10 years ago, but it probably was true then too. Jason Heflin: Okay. Jamie Swaim: I think the first is the ability to deal with ambiguity. And it's because nothing is predictable when you're dealing with people. Molley Ricketts: Never. Jamie Swaim: You can't judge somebody correctly just because you interviewed them for two hours. You can't judge somebody quickly because you worked with them for five years. When life circumstances shifted and you've never seen them through that season. You got to be real comfortable to be like, I have no idea how we're going to get through this and rely on the fact that, but you have before gotten through other things that you had no idea how you're going to get through that ability to deal with ambiguity, to say I don't know what I'm talking about right now, but I have the tools to learn more about it so that I can show up appropriately. I think that really matters. The second thing is I really lean into resourcefulness. And if I'm adding anybody on my team as a leader or a team member, I need to know that when you don't know something that you won't automatically fizzle, that you'll continue to be like, I am committed to figuring it out. Right? Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: I'm going to make a phone call. I'm going to look something up. I'm going, I'm not going to wait for somebody to be the authority on the topic. Right? I would rather you give me something to react to than to rely on me wholly to create it. That's what I look for. And the third is the ability to think in terms of the other person's seat as it relates to cross-functional capability. Molley Ricketts: That's deep. Jamie Swaim: I'm not a finance person, but I should care about what finance has to control. I should understand my impact on their work. I should care about how I manage my budget. I should be clear about what my needs are. I should understand why priorities are selected that aren't mine, but advocate for them effectively. I feel like it's appropriate for me to understand the challenges that my operational partners are up against, so that whenever I'm like, okay, but tomorrow we're going to start our performance review cycle and it's going to take you 15 hours to get stuff done in two days, well, that's not reflective of the life they're living. And I think there's a lot of ways that HR does that, where they put timelines or deadlines out there that, because the work is important, but it almost gets lost because it's impossible to execute. So I think you got to be thinking about how you're affecting other people and how you all have to work together in order to make great things happen. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So you've been in corporate, you've been in small, you've been a medium… Jamie Swaim: Fortune 5. Molley Ricketts: Fortune 5. You've been a solopreneur. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: In that experience that you've had, what are the greatest relationships that you feel like you have to have for your position to make a move to be respected? So often the HR is the, oh, you have to go to the principal's office kind of thing. From your experience and where you sit, looking back on your knowledge, what has been the greatest relationship that you know have to have as soon as you go into an organization? Jamie Swaim: It depends on the industry, but finance and IT are the two places that I really care about building some connection because whether or not I have the funds to execute something, whether or not I fully understand the impact of my decisions on the business output and whether or not I have the right systems or tools to navigate it most efficiently, those relationships to me are really key, really key. But I think the biggest one is the leaders that are on my team. I need to know that we're walking right foot, left foot together, and that we're sharing a brand, that we are building something together that we could speak for each other in a way of like, no, I know that's what you heard, but I know that person so well that I'm wondering if we're missing a sliver. Because like I said, we're dealing with ambiguity every day. So I think having people that you know can trust is super important. Molley Ricketts: And what two great positions to acknowledge that you have to align with and get to know for your impact to be meaningful the way that you want it to throughout the organization. So, one of the things that I love to hear from other leaders like yourself, that started at the age of 12, what value do you think HR brings to the table and how do you bring that value in a way that helps everyone else see it? So it's not just HR and compliance and almost like you're the person that puts up the guardrails and tells me what I can't do. Jamie Swaim: That's right. Well, I think one of the values is almost every compliance expectation was created because companies were jerks. Okay> Molley Ricketts: Shout out to <a href= "https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/podcast/the-power-of-emotional-intelligence-in-leadership-interview-with-eric-williamson/"> Eric Williamson</a> there. Jamie Swaim: That's right. Shout out, Eric. And the big thing is, is that if I can understand the spirit and intent of why the law exists or why the regulation is required, and I can make sure that we are doing that compliance effectively, HR is already paid for itself because the risks, like the one that Jason talked about, is probably more than what it would take to navigate that. And that's true across the board. Everything else that we do is icing for the company Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: So if we are contributing new strategic thoughts, ways to approach something, ways to focus on things like transferable skills or that we know the people that work there so well that we're like, you've got that problem. Have you talked to so-and-so? Because we're connectors and the organization that get to know people, what makes their blood pump and what they like to work on and where their talents lie. There's magic that starts to happen there when that is cranking out, right? Which is why I think HR business partners that just that job title has grown so significantly. When I started, it was HR Generalist only, and that just meant they weren't going to staff a full HR team. So you were going to do all the things. Molley Ricketts: Jack of all trades. Jamie Swaim: Yes, that's right. But business partners that understand why those performance expectations matter, how that translates to your outcomes, understand the return on investment of the development activities they're suggesting because they understand where your team's going. Gosh, that's where absolute incredible work happens. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, that's great. So you told us a little bit about the reason why you started, and you've talked a lot about what you've learned and how you've grown within your position. So what advice would you give someone in middle school or maybe a little older that is considering the work that you do? What would you tell them today that you wish someone would've told you then? Jamie Swaim: I had no idea the steps I was going to have to take to be able to reasonably affect the things that were the inspiration behind me starting in this career. And I remember the first several years, the shock that when I got my first HR job that I wasn't even doing the stuff I did when I had an internship, I was doing data entry, I was tracking attendance. I was filing. There's nothing, not a moment when I was deciding what I was going to major in and go into debt for in college, where I was like, I sure hope I file. Molley Ricketts: And track attendance. Jamie Swaim: And track attendance. But the biggest thing for me is I've always told people that you got to lean into the relationships network gain sponsors, people that would say your name in rooms you aren't in. You got to care about that. And every single file that I would work within, I read it, all of it. I got to see examples of how the work was done to see, I got to see other people that work there to see whether or not the things they put on their performance improvement plan, did it actually improve performance. Because I cared about stuff like that. So take every grain of what's offered you in terms of a requirement and see what it turns into in terms of nuggets that lay a foundation that allow somebody you respect to say, you know more than anybody I know about this topic. It's because I've cared about every detail that's come across my desk. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. I mean, you read the FMLA. Jamie Swaim: I did. Which I wouldn't advise, by the way. Google helped a lot of things. Molley Ricketts: Well, I want to tell you that I appreciate you and the commitment that you go to finding the right answer, and I say the right answer because we all have opinions. Jamie Swaim: Oh, absolutely. Molley Ricketts: And being able to discern when you know that you need to find the right answer and not just your opinion, that takes a big person and someone that's very self-aware. And I thank you for that. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. Real Talk Over Theory: The Inspiration Behind Parcel Molley Ricketts: So I think that you're closing out this chapter of files that we've committed to here at WTF, Workforce Therapy Files. You're the last one wrapping us up. So is there anything you want to close us out on that you think people need to know about Jamie Swaim? Jamie Swaim: The only thing I would like to put a pen in, if you don't mind, is that there's an inspiration story behind why I created Parcel. And part of it was because I worked in all of these corporate settings, and there would be times where I didn't have enough people on my team to do the things that were being asked and the time I was given to do it. And then for the moments where I needed to go and find someone, I kept running into consultants that all they had ever done was lived in the theoretical. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: I knew that I was not going to hire those consultants. I was not going to partner with people who were using theory and textbook to drive meaningful outcomes for companies, especially small and medium businesses. And I'm really proud of the people that we brought into the Parcel fold over the years because they've all been individuals that I know have walked the walk and that are not living in the utopian version of how you should be doing this, which is my biggest pet peeve about HR conferences. So I just want to say that because if you're in a situation where you don't know how to navigate something and you want somebody who's going to be real talk with you, I'm proud of what Parcel has done in that space. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, that's great. And I'll attest to the work effort. Thanks for being on the show. Jamie Swaim: Thanks for having me. Molley Ricketts: All right, Jim, close that file. That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. Did You Enjoy Today's Conversation? Visit <a href="http://www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com</a> to listen to additional WTF files or to let us know you'd like to be a guest on an upcoming file. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR - <a href="http://www.ParcelKnows.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.ParcelKnows.com</a> · Molley Ricketts - <a href="http://www.IncipioWorks.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.IncipioWorks.com</a> · Jason Heflin - <a href="http://www.CrowdSouth.com" target="_blank" rel= "noopener">www.CrowdSouth.com</a> We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

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What is Workforce Therapy Files?: This podcast is designed for business leaders and human resource professionals who are challenged with expanding their workforce. Workforce Therapy Files, an Employer Solutions Podcast, is hosted by 3 separate business owners who operate in the staffing and human resources space. They'll provide perspectives, tips and advice (along with a little humor) to help you prepare for and manage your workforce challenges.

Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: • Jamie Swaim, SPHR – www.ParcelKnows.com • Molley Ricketts – www.IncipioWorks.com • Jason Heflin – www.CrowdSouth.com

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