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这是真的么IsThisReal

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<p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal">《这是真的么IsThisReal》是一档泛文化类播客。主要谈论关于社会、戏剧、教育的相关和交叉话题,以深度谈话的方式探讨不同文化、语境、自我认知下的现实与虚拟问题。</p>

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6/27/2020

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Episode thumbnail for Ep79 认知卸载:现代社会中的古老大脑

May 2, 2026

Ep79 认知卸载:现代社会中的古老大脑

<p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>今天的我们正经历着一场前所未有的</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>认知卸载</span><span><span>” ——</span></span><span>将大脑原本要完成的认知任务转移给外部工具、环境或他人</span><span>。我们的大脑正在通过这种</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>经济分配</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>腾出空间。</span><span>然而,这种“解放”背后的质变在于:以往的工具(如蒸汽机、通讯设备)延伸的是身体或效率,而今天的</span><span><span>AI&nbsp;</span></span><span>却在代劳</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>思考</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>与</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>理解</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>本身</span><span>。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>本期播客是见学线上活动SITE A</span><span>的第</span><span><span>27</span></span><span>期节目录音。我们聊了聊技术如何从身体的延伸演变为思维的代劳</span><span>。当我们将记忆交给手机,将理解交给大语言模型,我们失去的仅仅只是信息吗?获取知识路径的改变是否也在影响我们深度建构自我的可能性?远古的大脑与今天的大脑之间有哪些机制并未改变,而哪些需求被改变了?认知卸载是一种有意识的选择吗?今天我们的生活中有哪些是不能交付出去的?我们应该如何留住人与人之间那种全然的连接感?年轻人可以以怎样的方式投入到“关联”的运动中去?希望对这些问题的思考与讨论对你会有帮助。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>——曹曦</span></p><img data-key="0" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/c744-audiofreehighqps/5F/B2/GKwRIJENy33hAAEBTQSTML9Y.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/c744-audiofreehighqps/5F/B2/GKwRIJENy33hAAEBTQSTML9Y.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/c744-audiofreehighqps/5F/B2/GKwRIJENy33hAAEBTQSTML9Y.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="421.875" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/c744-audiofreehighqps/5F/B2/GKwRIJENy33hAAEBTQSTML9Y.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="78.75"><br><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">S</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">h</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">o</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">w</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">n</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">o</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">t</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">e</strong></span></span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">s</strong></span></span></span></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;">• 什么是认知卸载?</p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span>•&nbsp;</span>延展心智理论:思维是大脑、工具和环境三者互动的过程</p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>工业时代的机器和工具是身体的延伸,从未代替过思考本身</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>当认知系统被代劳和外包以后,我们是否还有思考的能力?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>谷歌效应的启示:获取知识路径的改变对大脑结构产生了什么影响?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>短视频的日常化改变的是我们的感受模式和情绪阈值</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>是我在训练AI,还是AI在训练我?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>远古的大脑vs今天的大脑:生存的需求vs点赞的需求</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>mismatch:大脑机制与现代社会的不匹配</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>认知卸载是人们主动的行为和有意识的选择?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>我不一定要得到AI的肯定,但可以得到活人的否定</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>年轻人越来越少拥有获得真实世界反馈的机会</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>今天还有哪些是需要人来把握,不能交付出去的?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>照料婴儿会让人产生一种全然的连接感</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>今天的年轻人需要投入到一种“关联”的运动中去</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>达马西奥与社会情绪理论</span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">本</strong></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">期</strong></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">主</strong></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">播</strong></span></span></span></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>曹曦|编剧、导演、戏剧导师</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">延伸信息</strong></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><b>SITE A / SITE B</b></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><span>“SITE A”</span></span></span><span>是见学自2021年起策划的一个线上互动平台。它的宗旨在于网络优秀的教育性戏剧及剧场的线上免费资源,通过不定期的线上连线、谈话、讲座、采访等形式,为中文(及英文)教育性戏剧领域的动向、关注和观察提供一个平台。</span><span><span>&nbsp;“SITE A”</span></span><span>将坚持共享、半公共及实时的原则,除了展示必要的、关于教育性戏剧和剧场内容及形式的主题,</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>站台</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>还不可避免的涉及到与之相关的其他社会、文化、教育和意识话题,目的是为教育性戏剧及剧场实践者、研究者提供一个理论、理念及理想的公共讨论空间,从而拓展我们共同的实践光谱,寻找儿童和年轻人与当下社会文化的相关性。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><span>“SITE B”</span></span></span><span>则是一个由</span><span><span>Kostas Amoiropoulos</span></span><span>博士(希腊与挪威)、</span><span><span>Adam Bethlenfalvy</span></span><span>博士(匈牙利)、</span><span><span>Chris Cooper</span></span><span>(英国与中国)、</span><span><span>David Davis</span></span><span>教授(英国)与曹曦(中国)共同建立的小组,致力于共同创建一个由教育工作者、戏剧教师与教学艺术家组成的小型社群,旨在以研讨的形式回应当下紧迫的社会性危机,尤其儿童与年轻人所处的意义与关系危机。小组将在各国以当地语言开展系列研讨会,搭建一个可供社群共享的线上平台,聚焦我们的戏剧与剧场教育实践,探讨如何通过我们的工作协助年轻人重新确立</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>感受</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>的核心地位,重新培育他们的情感意识,以理解自身处境,夺回未来。</span></p><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">*关注微信公众号「见学国际教育」了解更多SITE A / SITE B活</strong><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">动</strong><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><b>&nbsp;认知卸载</b></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>认知卸载(Cognitive Offloading),指</span><span><span>个体通过物理行为(如笔记、拍照)或外部资源(如搜索引擎、</span></span><span><span><span>AI</span></span></span><span><span>、计算器)来减少内部认知资源(如注意力、工作记忆、计算能力)损耗及脑力加工负荷的策略</span></span><span><span>。该行为将记忆、推</span>理或决策任务外包,旨在腾出脑力处理更复杂事务,但也可能导致批判性思维退化、记忆力下降和对工具的依赖(认知债务)。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>延展心智理论</b></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>“</span></span><span>延展心智理论</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>(</span><span><span>The Extended Mind Thesis, EMT</span></span><span>)是当代认知科学、哲学和人工智能领域中最具颠覆性的观点之一。它由哲学家安迪</span><span><span>·</span></span><span>克拉克(</span><span><span>Andy Clark</span></span><span>)</span><span><span><span><span>和大卫</span><span><span>·</span></span><span>查默斯(</span><span><span>David Chalmers</span></span><span>)在</span><span><span>&nbsp;1998&nbsp;</span></span><span>年的同名论文中正式提出。</span></span></span></span><span>延展心智理论挑战了传统的</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>颅内主义</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>(</span><span><span>Internalism / Intracranialism</span></span><span>),即认为认知过程仅发生在生物大脑和神经系统之内的观点。在智能手机、可穿戴设备和</span><span><span>AI&nbsp;</span></span><span>普及的今天,延展心智理论变得前所未有的真实:智能手机不仅是工具,更成了我们的</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>外置大脑</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>。失去手机时的焦虑感,在</span><span><span>EMT&nbsp;</span></span><span>看来,本质上是一种</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>认知截肢</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>;而当我们与大型语言模型(如</span><span><span>ChatGPT</span></span><span>)协同思考时,认知过程是在人类神经系统与硅基算法之间流动的。这一观点的批评者认为,生物记忆具有联想性、易遗忘性等特征,而笔记本只是静态数据,两者有本质区别;此外,外部工具只是</span><span><span><span><span>影响了认知(因果关系),而不是</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>构成了认知(构成关系)。</span></span></span></span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>谷歌效应</b></span></span></p><img data-key="1" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/b837-audiofreehighqps/3D/C6/GAqhHAMNy3vyAAdGbgSTL_-y.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/b837-audiofreehighqps/3D/C6/GAqhHAMNy3vyAAdGbgSTL_-y.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/b837-audiofreehighqps/3D/C6/GAqhHAMNy3vyAAdGbgSTL_-y.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="391.875" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/b837-audiofreehighqps/3D/C6/GAqhHAMNy3vyAAdGbgSTL_-y.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="73.14999999999999"><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>谷歌效应</span><span><span><span><span>(</span><span><span>Google Effect</span></span><span>)指个体在面对可以随时通过互联网搜索到的信息时,对该信息的直接记忆(</span><span><span>Recall</span></span><span>)能力下降,但对获取该信息的路径(</span><span><span>Location</span></span><span>)记忆增强的现象。</span></span><span>它在心理学界也被称为</span></span></span><span><span><span><span>数字健忘症</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>(</span><span><span>Digital Amnesia</span></span><span>):由于我们知道信息可以在网上轻松获取,我们的大脑倾向于忘记信息本身,而转为记住</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>如何找到这些信息</span><span><span>”</span></span></span></span></span><span>。</span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>《思考,快与慢》</b></span></span></p><img data-key="2" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/6462-audiofreehighqps/7B/73/GAqhT9ENy3zmAADSaQSTMGRF.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/6462-audiofreehighqps/7B/73/GAqhT9ENy3zmAADSaQSTMGRF.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/6462-audiofreehighqps/7B/73/GAqhT9ENy3zmAADSaQSTMGRF.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="750" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/6462-audiofreehighqps/7B/73/GAqhT9ENy3zmAADSaQSTMGRF.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="140"><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>《思考,快与慢》(</span><span><span><span><span>Thinking, Fast and Slow</span></span><span>)是诺贝尔经济学奖得主、心理学家</span></span></span><span><span><span><span>丹尼尔</span><span><span>·</span></span><span>卡尼曼(</span><span><span>Daniel Kahneman</span></span><span>)的著作。该书系统地揭示了人类大脑在决策和判断时的底层运作机制。卡尼曼将人类的思考模式分为两个系统:系统</span><span><span>&nbsp;1</span></span><span>(快思考)依赖直觉、本能,运行速度极快且不费力,它负责处理日常琐事,但也极易受到偏见和情绪的影响;系统</span><span><span>&nbsp;2</span></span><span>(慢思考)依赖逻辑、理性,运行速度慢且耗费精力,它负责处理复杂计算和自我监控,但天性</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>懒惰</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>,常在不经意间将控制权让给系统</span><span><span>&nbsp;1</span></span><span>。</span></span></span></span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><b>达马西奥</b></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><img data-key="3" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/10d4-audiofreehighqps/4D/11/GKwRIaINy30KAAFp4ASTMHF3.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/10d4-audiofreehighqps/4D/11/GKwRIaINy30KAAFp4ASTMHF3.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/10d4-audiofreehighqps/4D/11/GKwRIaINy30KAAFp4ASTMHF3.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="1148.5451761102604" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/10d4-audiofreehighqps/4D/11/GKwRIaINy30KAAFp4ASTMHF3.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="214.39509954058195"><br></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>安东尼奥</span><span><span>·</span></span><span>达马西奥(</span><span><span>Antonio Damasio</span></span><span>)是当代最具影响力的神经科学家之一,著有《笛卡尔的错误》《寻找斯宾诺莎》等著作。他的研究彻底推翻了</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>理性与情绪对立</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>的传统观念,提出情绪不仅不干扰理性,反而是理性决策的基石。达马西奥将情绪分为基本情绪(如恐惧、愤怒)和社会性情绪(</span><span><span>Social Emotions</span></span><span>)。他认为社会性情绪对人格塑造和社会文明至关重要。其中,在《寻找斯宾诺莎》(</span><span><span>Looking for Spinoza</span></span><span>)中,达马西奥探讨了“崇拜”等高级情绪对人格的塑造。崇拜是一种对他人卓越品质或行为的积极情绪反应。这种情绪在大脑中会触发强烈的躯体奖励信号。当我们</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>崇拜</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>某人时,这种情绪不仅是赞赏,更是一种模仿的动力。它通过生物反馈机制,将社会公认的</span><span><span>“</span></span><span>美德</span><span><span>”</span></span><span>转化为个体内部的愉悦感,从而引导个体塑造符合社会期待的人格。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>*</span></span><span>以上延伸信息皆来自</span><span><span>AI不同程度</span></span><span>的帮助</span></p><br><span><br></span>相关往期回顾:<p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal">Ep27 思考是可以外包的么?</p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal">Ep30 机器会知错不改么?</p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal">Ep53 我和ChatGPT聊了会儿</p><span><br></span><span><br></span>

Episode thumbnail for Ep78 越悲观,越要回到具体性里去

January 10, 2026

Ep78 越悲观,越要回到具体性里去

<p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>1995</span></span><span>年,为了面对整个英国教育剧场剧团财政削减的现实,青年剧场常务会议(</span><span><span>SCYPT</span></span><span>)成立了一个戏剧合作社,来为许多被剥夺了实践教育剧场机会的演教员提供一个能继续做戏的机会。在吉勒姆(Geoff Gillham)和约曼(</span><span>Ian Yeoman)</span><span>的带领下,戏剧合作社制作了一出经典的教育剧场作品《骨头笼》。3</span><span><span>0</span></span><span>年后的今天,海星重新导演了这部作品,作为庆祝教育剧场</span><span><span>60</span></span><span>周年的纪念演出。</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><img data-key="0" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/fb56-audiofreehighqps/35/9C/GKwRIasNOAaAAAquvQRW7ect.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/fb56-audiofreehighqps/35/9C/GKwRIasNOAaAAAquvQRW7ect.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/fb56-audiofreehighqps/35/9C/GKwRIasNOAaAAAquvQRW7ect.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="500" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/fb56-audiofreehighqps/35/9C/GKwRIasNOAaAAAquvQRW7ect.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.33333333333333"></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><img data-key="1" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/4df8-audiofreehighqps/29/7B/GKwRIRwNOAazAAz_uQRW7itX.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/4df8-audiofreehighqps/29/7B/GKwRIRwNOAazAAz_uQRW7itX.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/4df8-audiofreehighqps/29/7B/GKwRIRwNOAazAAz_uQRW7itX.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="1125" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/4df8-audiofreehighqps/29/7B/GKwRIRwNOAazAAz_uQRW7itX.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="210"></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>这出戏讲述的是一个男人拖着一辆笼车,车里有被绳子锁住的年轻女孩,但女孩一直将这个地方叫做“家”,男人的梦话里,不断重复他为女孩建造的四面高墙,当另一个女孩出现,并希望解救这个女孩时,她却不愿从笼子里出来。这出戏的结尾将由每一场的观众决定。在本期节目中,作为演教员的我和媛媛,与导演海星一起讨论了观众的不同决定,为什么要在今天上演这样的故事,以及与本剧有关的种种关于内容和形式的讨论。希望对你会有帮助。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>——曹曦</span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span><span>S</span></span><span><span>h</span></span><span><span>o</span></span><span><span>w</span></span><span><span>n</span></span><span><span>o</span></span><span><span>t</span></span><span><span>e</span></span><span><span>s</span></span></span></strong></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•</span>《骨头笼》的参与者为什么不行动?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>•&nbsp;</span>暴力地将人解救是正确的么?</p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>为什么要在今天演这个故事?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>笼子的寓意</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>很多人活在观念里,而离剧中的女孩很远</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>自我不是一个恒定的状态</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>在匈牙利第一次看到《骨头笼》</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>怎么把握图像、声音和场景</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>年轻人的消极和悲观</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>不要用思考隔绝自己的感受</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>距离事件的远近会影响参与者的观点</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>当不知道做什么时,阅读他人也能学习</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>我扮演的是场景、境遇和关系,而非角色</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>剧作家Geoff Gillham的生平</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>工人运动和教育剧场的关系</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>吉勒姆的“意义的层次”</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>匈牙利版本与中国版本的差别</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>中央戏剧学院的艺术教育与教育制度的关系</span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">本</strong></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">期</strong></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">主</strong></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">播</strong></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>见学戏剧合作社|曹曦、陈媛、徐海星</span><br></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">延伸信息</strong></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><b>Geoff Gillham&nbsp;</b></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><img data-key="2" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c21-audiofreehighqps/F4/24/GAqhg3wNOAdyAAkVxwRW72F7.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c21-audiofreehighqps/F4/24/GAqhg3wNOAdyAAkVxwRW72F7.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c21-audiofreehighqps/F4/24/GAqhg3wNOAdyAAkVxwRW72F7.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="1132.2984244670993" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c21-audiofreehighqps/F4/24/GAqhg3wNOAdyAAkVxwRW72F7.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="211.36237256719184"><br></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>杰夫</span><span><span>.</span></span><span>吉勒姆(</span><span><span>1946-2001</span></span><span>),教育剧场领域杰出的导演、剧作家、戏剧教师;教育剧场运动卓越的活动家和领导者。在</span><span>职业生涯早期,作为导演他曾于</span><span><span>格拉斯哥执导了萨缪尔</span></span><span><span>.</span></span><span>贝克特的剧作《呼吸》的世界首演。在踏上戏剧之路不久后,他就找到并选择了毕生热爱和相信的艺术形式——教育剧场(</span><span><span>TiE</span></span><span>)。在早期的教育剧场运动中,他领导的伦敦考克皮剧团(</span><span><span>Cockpit Theatre</span></span><span>)创作了大量优秀的教育剧场作品,并成为较早开始关注理论框架的实践团体。吉勒姆</span><span>一生致力于</span><span><span>TiE</span></span><span>的发展,并通过青年剧场常务会议(</span><span><span>SCYPT</span></span><span>)培训和支持年轻的演教员。</span><span><span>1990</span></span><span>年代,</span><span>他执导了爱德华</span><span><span>.</span></span><span>邦德的多部</span><span><span>TiE</span></span><span>作品(《人间大炮》、《十一件背心》、《在内海》等)。作为剧作家,他写作了包括《骨头笼》、《收容所》、《吻》、《穿上,脱下》在内的多部杰作。无论作为导演、剧作家还是教育剧场运动的先锋,对社会性的关注始终是他工作的核心。</span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>青年剧场常务会议(SCYPT)</b></span></span></p><img data-key="3" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/35df-audiofreehighqps/98/89/GAqhp50NOAehABI9FARW76Me.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/35df-audiofreehighqps/98/89/GAqhp50NOAehABI9FARW76Me.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/35df-audiofreehighqps/98/89/GAqhp50NOAehABI9FARW76Me.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="1052.3491879350347" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/35df-audiofreehighqps/98/89/GAqhp50NOAehABI9FARW76Me.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="196.43851508120648"><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>自</span><span><span>1965</span></span><span>年第一部教育剧场作品诞生于贝尔格莱德剧院,至</span><span><span>1977</span></span><span>年全英已有</span><span><span>90</span></span><span>个致力于青少年戏剧</span><span><span>/</span></span><span>剧场领域的专职剧团。这些剧团逐步将教育剧场(</span><span><span>Theatre in Education</span></span><span>)发展成为一个独立的艺术形式,该领域的实践者们也开始关注这项艺术的理论框架。</span><span><span>1975</span></span><span>年,青年剧场常务会议(</span><span><span>SCYPT</span></span><span>)应运而生,这是教育剧场运动的一次重要转型,此后剧团成员对教学法的专注更多,他们主张教育剧场“完全是将儿童和他们的参与放在其工作重心上,他们参与了所有社会、情感、肢体和心智的发展”。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>在</span><span><span>SCYPT</span></span><span>存续的</span><span><span>30多</span></span><span>年间,共发表了超过</span><span><span>30</span></span><span>册期刊,其中收录了大量富有价值的、为教育剧场乃至广义的青少年剧场提供理论梳理和案例分析的文献。</span><span><span>1988</span></span><span>年教育法案后,政府对教育领域的干预和财政削减导致了</span><span><span>90</span></span><span>年代大批剧团相继关闭,青年剧场常务会议仍在通过期刊和年会不懈呼吁并想办法推动教育剧场的发展,直至</span><span><span>1997</span></span><span>年正式解散。</span><span><span><br></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>1995</span></span><span>年成立的</span><span><span>SCYPT</span></span><span>戏剧合作社(</span><span><span>STC</span></span><span>)便是为那些失业的教育剧场实践者提供支持而发起的决议,</span><span><span>Geoff</span></span><span>受邀为该组织写作了第一部</span><span><span>TiE</span></span><span>作品《骨头笼》,伊恩</span><span><span>.</span></span><span>约曼执导了该剧。</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;">搜索“见学国际教育” 了解更多教育剧场历史:</p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><a target="_blank" style="color:#4990E2;text-decoration:none;">见学教育戏剧绿皮书之二: 《 逆流而上》第七章</a></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>圆桌剧团</b></span></span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>圆桌剧团(</span><span><span>Round Table Theatre in Education</span></span><span>)成立于</span><span><span>1992</span></span><span>年,是中欧地区的首个教育剧场剧团。剧团关注不同年龄段儿童的需求和面对的问题,并尝试用戏剧回应他们。圆桌剧团的使命是让儿童和青少年有机会通过艺术作品探索和理解我们这个时代最相关的问题。</span><span><span>2007</span></span><span>年,圆桌剧团与国际知名的</span><span><span>Big Brum TiE&nbsp;</span></span><span>剧团合作排演了匈牙利版本的《骨头笼》,该剧成为剧团的保留剧目持续上演至今。</span></p><img data-key="4" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/75f5-audiofreehighqps/E6/12/GAqhg3wNOAgcAALv8QRW8Itj.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/75f5-audiofreehighqps/E6/12/GAqhg3wNOAgcAALv8QRW8Itj.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/75f5-audiofreehighqps/E6/12/GAqhg3wNOAgcAALv8QRW8Itj.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="500" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/75f5-audiofreehighqps/E6/12/GAqhg3wNOAgcAALv8QRW8Itj.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.33333333333333"><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><span>△圆桌剧团TiE作品《骨头笼》(2007)</span></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><span>设计</span></span></span>:Ceri Townsend &nbsp;导演:Zsuzsa Hajós</p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>演教员:Ádám Bethlenfalvy/Zsuzsa Ferik/Arnold Nyári</span></span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>见学戏剧合作社</b></span></span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>见学戏剧合作社(</span><span><span>JX Theatre Co-operative</span></span><span>)诞生于见学教育戏剧暑期学校,是一个由见学国际教育文化院及抓马教育中心支持建立起来的剧团组织,成员一部分来自抓马教育中心的教育戏剧引导者、演教员,一部分来自参与过见学国际教育文化院培训的学员,是当下中国教育戏剧</span><span><span>/</span></span><span>教育剧场领域的优秀践行者。在此之前,成立于</span><span><span>2009</span></span><span>年的抓马</span><span><span>.</span></span><span>教育剧场已创作并成功上演过</span><span><span>9</span></span><span>部面向</span><span><span>4-7</span></span><span>岁儿童的教育剧场作品,积累了丰富的以戏剧</span><span><span>/</span></span><span>剧场作为学习过程的实践经验。见学戏剧合作社迄今已支持创作了包含《阿</span><span><span>Q</span></span><span>正传》、《骨头笼》和《隔壁那些人》在内的多部教育剧场作品。</span></p><br><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span>《骨头笼》巡演预定&nbsp;</span></span></strong><span>【详情咨询】</span>15810058533(微信/手机)<span>张老师</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><span><span><span>后</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>期</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>|</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>曹</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>曦</span></span></span></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>编辑|海星</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span><span><span><span>音乐|</span><span><span>Spejldans</span></span><span><span>vs&nbsp;</span>by&nbsp;</span><span>Sønderjyllands Symfoniorkester</span></span></span></span></span><br></p><span><br></span><span><br></span>

Episode thumbnail for Ep77 被流量化的私人情感:顽皮的传说

January 2, 2026

Ep77 被流量化的私人情感:顽皮的传说

<p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>今天邀请到逐风剧团的几名成员,聊聊最近排演的一出新戏《顽皮的传说》。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>这部作品是逐风集体创作的第二部作品。讲述的是一档由几对神仙夫妻参与的真人秀:过气明星的经纪人后羿与当红女明星嫦娥;来自杭州郊区、每天忙于算计生计的药商许仙和最终选择逃离、过着一种亲近自然生活的妻子白素贞;习惯了分居的牛郎和织女;以及八面玲珑、过着公开婚外情生活的牛魔王和铁扇公主,和他们生长在流量文化下的孩子——红。本剧讲述的是这一对对夫妻在面对镜头和彼此时,如何从轻松、荒诞的扮演着彼此的社会角色,逐渐滑向失控、撕裂和暴露的现实中。这些神仙,被镜头监视、剪辑、打赏和评论,逐渐表现出凡人的一面。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>本期节目,我们邀请到几对夫妻的扮演者,来一起聊聊这部戏给大家带来的感受和收获,我们讨论了被神化的婚姻,被流量裹挟的情感,以及当私人情感成为商品后对婚姻、伦理以及教育的影响。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>下面是我和逐风剧团言锦心、严思南、林宇、邢丽君的一次聊天。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>——曹曦</span></span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><img data-key="0" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/2224-audiofreehighqps/6D/83/GKwRIaINLUDVAA4VwQRRxMEr.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/2224-audiofreehighqps/6D/83/GKwRIaINLUDVAA4VwQRRxMEr.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/2224-audiofreehighqps/6D/83/GKwRIaINLUDVAA4VwQRRxMEr.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="500.09999999999997" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/2224-audiofreehighqps/6D/83/GKwRIaINLUDVAA4VwQRRxMEr.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.35199999999999"></span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">Shownotes</strong></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>看他人时也在看自己</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>社群参与到一种共创的过程,而非结果</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>为什么演出很重要</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>演戏时意识在哪里?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>牛郎和织女的婚姻底色</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>社交媒体放大了私人情感</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>一个小时内要跳一百多支舞</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>消费时代的时间和空间</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>塑料玩具 vs 木头玩具</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>“需要很多人过糟糕的生活”</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>抓马是自然长出来的么?</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>•&nbsp;</span>如何看待现实?如何看待虚拟?</span><span><br></span><span><br></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span><span><span>本</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>期</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>主</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>播</span></span></span></span></strong></span></p><span><br></span><span>言锦心、严思南、林宇、邢丽君<span>|</span>抓马家长、逐风剧团成员</span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>曹曦<span>|</span>编剧、导演、戏剧导师</span><span><br></span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span><img data-key="1" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c7f-audiofreehighqps/65/75/GAqh_aQNLUFsAAtEawRRxSrw.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c7f-audiofreehighqps/65/75/GAqh_aQNLUFsAAtEawRRxSrw.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c7f-audiofreehighqps/65/75/GAqh_aQNLUFsAAtEawRRxSrw.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="499.86972381448675" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1c7f-audiofreehighqps/65/75/GAqh_aQNLUFsAAtEawRRxSrw.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.30901511203753"><br></span></span></strong></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span><img data-key="2" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/9fec-audiofreehighqps/21/EC/GKwRIUENLUGCAAwPjQRRxTtV.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/9fec-audiofreehighqps/21/EC/GKwRIUENLUGCAAwPjQRRxTtV.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/9fec-audiofreehighqps/21/EC/GKwRIUENLUGCAAwPjQRRxTtV.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="499.86972381448675" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/9fec-audiofreehighqps/21/EC/GKwRIUENLUGCAAwPjQRRxTtV.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.30901511203753"><br></span></span></strong></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span><img data-key="3" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1b0c-audiofreehighqps/AF/62/GAqhfD0NLUGPABD2vgRRxUQq.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1b0c-audiofreehighqps/AF/62/GAqhfD0NLUGPABD2vgRRxUQq.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1b0c-audiofreehighqps/AF/62/GAqhfD0NLUGPABD2vgRRxUQq.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="499.86972381448675" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1b0c-audiofreehighqps/AF/62/GAqhfD0NLUGPABD2vgRRxUQq.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.30901511203753"><br></span></span></strong></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span><img data-key="4" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/8290-audiofreehighqps/01/42/GAqhfD0NLUGhAAHKBwRRxVKP.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/8290-audiofreehighqps/01/42/GAqhfD0NLUGhAAHKBwRRxVKP.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/8290-audiofreehighqps/01/42/GAqhfD0NLUGhAAHKBwRRxVKP.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="500.39062500000006" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/8290-audiofreehighqps/01/42/GAqhfD0NLUGhAAHKBwRRxVKP.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.40625"><br></span></span></strong></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;"><span><span>△《顽皮的传说之神仙眷侣》演出剧照</span></span></strong><span><br></span><span><br><br></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><strong style="color:#FC5832;word-break:break-all;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight: normal;">&nbsp;延伸信息</strong></span></p><span><span><b>&nbsp;《重读鲁迅》林宇</b>&nbsp;</span></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><img data-key="5" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/a0da-audiofreehighqps/11/F0/GKwRIUENLUHYAABoSARRxXwm.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/a0da-audiofreehighqps/11/F0/GKwRIUENLUHYAABoSARRxXwm.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/a0da-audiofreehighqps/11/F0/GKwRIUENLUHYAABoSARRxXwm.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="500" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/a0da-audiofreehighqps/11/F0/GKwRIUENLUHYAABoSARRxXwm.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="93.33333333333333"><br></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>《重读鲁迅》是独立出版品牌</span><span><span>SHU SHU</span></span><span>推出的</span><span><span>POD</span></span><span>系列第四期,由独立出版人开开主编、</span><span><span>8</span></span><span>位</span><span><span>13-17</span></span><span>岁的青年共同创作完成。她们用画作对鲁迅的四部作品《铸剑》、《孔乙己》、《药》与<span>《狂人日记》</span>进行了全新演绎,以此在时代的激流中安放自我,回应当下的焦虑、抑郁与迷茫。</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>除</span><span><span>8</span></span><span>位</span><span><span>POD</span></span><span>成员的创作外,书中还收录了三篇当代文字作品,其中林宇在《以药定义的人生片段》一文中讲述了她在患胃癌后与药相伴的时光及心路历程。</span></p><span><br></span><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>《海上夫人》</b></span></span></p><span><img data-key="6" src="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1015-audiofreehighqps/DB/3B/GKwRIUENLUIqAADd6ARRxaW5.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" alt="" data-origin="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1015-audiofreehighqps/DB/3B/GKwRIUENLUIqAADd6ARRxaW5.jpg?op_type=0" data-large="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1015-audiofreehighqps/DB/3B/GKwRIUENLUIqAADd6ARRxaW5.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_large" data-large-width="750" data-large-height="1124.4509516837481" data-preview="http://imagev2.xmcdn.com/storages/1015-audiofreehighqps/DB/3B/GKwRIUENLUIqAADd6ARRxaW5.jpg!op_type=4&amp;device_type=ios&amp;upload_type=attachment&amp;name=mobile_small" data-preview-width="140" data-preview-height="209.89751098096633"><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>《海上夫人》是挪威剧作家易卜生于</span><span>1888</span><span>年创作的戏剧作品。该剧以医生房格尔的续弦妻子艾梨达为中心,讲述她因长期怀念海洋生活而与家庭成员关系疏离的故事。艾梨达每日前往海峡游泳,被当地人称为</span><span>“</span><span>海上夫人</span><span>”</span><span>,其内心始终被与陌生海员<span>庄士顿</span>的过往婚约所困扰,象征自由的大海成为她精神世界的核心意象。</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>在创作《顽皮的传说》过程中,《海上夫人》中房格尔对艾梨达所说的一段台词令剧团成员颇有共鸣:</span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>“你的心思总在别的地方,现在可不同了!</span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>现在你完全不受我和我的家庭的束缚了,</span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>你的生活,你的真正的生活可以回到她的原路上去了。</span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span><span>你现在可以自由选择,自己负责了。”</span></span></p><span><br></span><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><b>《再见爱人》</b></span></span></p><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>《再见爱人》是芒果</span><span><span>TV</span></span><span>出品的一档婚姻纪实观察真人秀节目。每季节目中都邀请了三对面临感情危机的夫妻,共同开启一段为期</span><span><span>18</span></span><span>天的旅行,在旅行中,他们将直面婚姻生活中产生的所有问题。</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal"><span>《顽皮的传说》借用了这种婚姻纪实真人秀的设定,流量成为他们婚姻生活中无法被忽视的现实。</span></p><span><br></span><span><br></span><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><span><span><span>后</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>期</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>|</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>曹</span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>曦</span></span></span></span></span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span>编辑|海星</span></p><p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;"><span><span><span><span><span>音乐|<span>Fall in Love&nbsp;</span>by&nbsp;</span><span>March the Machine</span></span></span></span></span></p><span><br></span><span><br></span>

81 total episodes available

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<p style="color:#333333;font-weight:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:30px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;hyphens:auto;text-align:justify;" data-flag="normal">《这是真的么IsThisReal》是一档泛文化类播客。主要谈论关于社会、戏剧、教育的相关和交叉话题,以深度谈话的方式探讨不同文化、语境、自我认知下的现实与虚拟问题。</p>
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