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Check It Out!

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A podcast from Sno-Isle Libraries for lifelong learners with inquiring minds. Check It Out! introduces the amazing people who work at, use and collaborate with the library district – and all of the services it offers to residents of Washington State's Snohomish and Island counties.

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Episode thumbnail for Episode 63: Podcast creator Jason Becker will change your mind about umpires

September 25, 2020

Episode 63: Podcast creator Jason Becker will change your mind about umpires

<p><span data-contrast="auto">Let’s m</span><span data-contrast= "auto">eet the baseball nut </span><span data-contrast= "auto">who sticks up for </span><span data-contrast="auto">the guys behind the plate that every baseball fan loves </span><span data-contrast= "auto">to</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> hate.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Yes, we’re talking about umpires.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">In this episode of the </span><span data-contrast="auto">Check It Out! </span><span data-contrast= "auto">p</span><span data-contrast= "auto">odcast</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,</span><span data-contrast="auto"> host Ken Harvey talks to his friend Jason Becker, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">creator</span><span data-contrast="auto"> of the </span><a href= "http://umpireinspire.com/"><span data-contrast="none">Umpire Inspire podcast</span></a><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“In my book, he’s a genius, and he’s producing a fascinating podcast for the officials behind America’s favorite round</span><span data-contrast= "auto">-</span><span data-contrast="auto">ball sport. That’s baseball, and those are umpires,” Harvey </span><span data-contrast= "auto">said </span><span data-contrast="auto">in introducing</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Becker</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“F</span><span data-contrast="auto">ans and players often disagree with what the umpire says and what the umpire does, which can make it a lonely job even when there are two of them on the fiel</span><span data-contrast= "auto">d.”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Becker humanizes umpires. </span><span data-contrast="auto">He explains why t</span><span data-contrast="auto">hey love what they do</span><span data-contrast= "auto">, </span><span data-contrast="auto">even when they don’t get paid to call balls and strikes and outs. T</span><span data-contrast="auto">hey’re inspired to do it for the love of the game</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Becker’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s podcast invites listeners to come in and hear a</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> captivating </span><span data-contrast= "auto">conversation with an enthusiastic umpire who may be from anywhere on the planet</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Baseball isn</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">t just American, i</span><span data-contrast="auto">t’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s global, and these umpires consider their jobs to be a lot more than just calling balls and strikes</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,” Harvey said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Becker said baseball has been his passion “for practically my entire life.” </span><span data-contrast="auto">He started playing when he was 5 and continues to play today in a senior adult league.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“I've played since I was a kid, like a lot of people. Coached my boy all the way through Little League, and my girls for a couple years while they were playing,” he said.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">About eight years ago, he grabbed a mask and tried umpiring.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“It was a need that I felt I could do some good with in our local Little League here in Mukilteo, and it turned out to be a really great fit,” Becker said. “</span><span data-contrast="auto">Being out on a baseball field makes more sense to me than being just about anywhere else, so I've really enjoyed umpiring.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">He takes it</span><span data-contrast="auto"> seriously</span><span data-contrast="auto">. He umpires</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Little League baseball and softball </span><span data-contrast= "auto">around</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Washington and umpire</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> high school baseball in Snohomish County. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">It took Becker a couple of years of umpiring before he could </span><span data-contrast= "auto">se</span><span data-contrast="auto">e the connection between his love for umpiring and his love </span><span data-contrast= "auto">for</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">fascinating</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> podcasts.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“There</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s a lot of folks out there for whom umpiring means an awful lot, and they put a lot of their heart and their time into it, and it</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s often not paid. Little League is an all-volunteer organization, for instance,” Becker said. </span><span data-contrast="auto">“I found that umpires were generally just a really great group of people to hang around with because of their giving spirit, their commitment to public service... how umpiring is a public service for many of the friends that I have in the umpiring community.”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">That’s when the “two worlds” came together in Becker’s mind, and the idea of the Umpire Inspire podcast was born.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">In late 2019, he decided it was time to </span><span data-contrast="auto">make it happen</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Now</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s the time</span><span data-contrast="auto">,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Becker said. “</span><span data-contrast="auto">We</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re going to take a swing. Hopefully, I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">ll connect. Maybe I</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ll miss, but it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s going to be an interesting journey, and it has definitely been such a joy and such a privilege, as I have completed this first go-around, and I</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">m just on the doorstep of getting my own season two underway, so it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s been great.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">The first episode of Umpire Inspire debuted on March 17, 2020, with minor league umpire </span><a href= "http://umpireinspire.com/bobby-tassone/"><span data-contrast= "none">Bobby Tassone</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">, who works the Carolina League.</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Interviews with seven more umpires followed</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">S</span><span data-contrast= "auto">eason </span><span data-contrast= "auto">2</span><span data-contrast="auto"> started on Aug. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">11</span><span data-contrast="auto">. Among </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Becker</span><span data-contrast="auto">’s interviews so far</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> are</span><span data-contrast="auto"> umpires who work in Venezuela and </span><span data-contrast="auto">the Czech Republic, </span><span data-contrast="auto">and two </span><span data-contrast="auto">women who call the game</span><span data-contrast="auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Some are professionals. Some are amateurs. </span><span data-contrast="auto">They come in a</span><span data-contrast="auto">ll shapes and sizes</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and range</span><span data-contrast="auto"> in age from 16 to 76. </span><span data-contrast="auto">All have interesting stories to share.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“You’ve</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> had an opportunity to have some conversations with some remarkable guests already</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Harvey said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Harvey asked Becker when he, as a young player, first became aware of an umpire on the field.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I don</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">t think anybody has asked me that question before,</span><span data-contrast="auto">” Becker said. “I’m</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">not sure I do remember, if I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">m being honest. As a kid, you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re out there, you</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re doing what you do with your buddies, and you</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re playing the game and you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re having fun. I can</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’t</span><span data-contrast="auto"> recall a time where I do remember the umpire, but it does put a point on what the best volunteer umpires, or paid umpires... one of their best characteristics is they</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re doing it for the game.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Umpires don’t care who wins or loses the game, Becker explained.</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">We are what we call the third team on the field</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” he said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">In every baseball and softball game, there are three teams: there</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s the home team, there</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s the away team, and there</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s the third team, the umpires, who, just like the players, are out there giving their best effort and trying to make every call correct. They want to do their best job, just like the players do. And maybe it makes a point that I don</span><span data-contrast="auto">’t</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> remember my umpires when I was a kid, but it doesn</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">t change the fact that they were out there giving their time away from their families, away from their work lives, so that I could play ball. Without an umpire, it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s just a scrimmage.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Harvey recalled his time playing baseball as a youngster and </span><span data-contrast= "auto">coming to terms with </span><span data-contrast= "auto">the stranger behind the p</span><span data-contrast= "auto">late</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">I</span><span data-contrast="auto"> think that probably any of us who have stood on the field and gone to the home plate and swung, at some point in our lifetime, whatever age, we start to recognize that </span><span data-contrast="auto">an umpire</span><span data-contrast="auto"> has a significant amount of power, but also a significant amount of knowledge about the game, and maybe even more than my coach does</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Harvey said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">He </span><span data-contrast= "auto">said he </span><span data-contrast= "auto">appreciate</span><span data-contrast= "auto">d</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Becker’s ability </span><span data-contrast="auto">to bring out the humanity and service that umpires bring to the sport</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and wanted to know, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“A</span><span data-contrast="auto">t what point did you start to really recognize that about these umpires?</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">It took Becker a while behind the plate to see the other stories in his umpire colleagues.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">My show is not about rules or field mechanics or instruction</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” he said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">There are a thousand great websites and podcasts and sources that do a much better job with things like that than I do</span><span data-contrast="auto">. M</span><span data-contrast="auto">y show is about the stories and the journeys and the heart of why we </span><span data-contrast= "auto">umpires</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">do what we do. </span><span data-contrast="auto">There is nothing an umpire loves more than to just get together with his or her partner after a game, share their experiences and their wins and their losses, and what they</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">ve learned; swap stories; tell tall tales; that is something that is common with every umpire at every level, all around the world.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Harvey</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> asked fo</span><span data-contrast= "auto">r</span><span data-contrast="auto"> an example. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">One of my favorite guests during this season one was Dale Scott,</span><span data-contrast="auto">” Becker said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">He was a </span><span data-contrast= "auto">M</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ajor </span><span data-contrast= "auto">L</span><span data-contrast="auto">eague umpire for 30-plus years until his retirement in 2017. There was so much good stuff there. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">H</span><span data-contrast="auto">e did point out</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">... if you went to your job every day not having any idea of what was going to happen that day, it might make you get up out of bed in the morning a little differently. It could light a little bit of a fire. That</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s what it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s like every game for a baseball or a softball umpire. Some things are going to be consistent, but just about every game you see something and </span><span data-contrast="auto">have to</span><span data-contrast="auto"> rule on something that you may never have seen before.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">That got Becker to tell the story of his own </span><span data-contrast= "auto">personal </span><span data-contrast="auto">umpire hero.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">One thing that</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s </span><span data-contrast="auto">really interesting, Ken, is that a lot of the stories start exactly the same,</span><span data-contrast="auto">” Becker said. “</span><span data-contrast="auto">I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">ve had the opportunity to speak with everyone from teenage youth umpires here in Snohomish County, all the way up to Major League Baseball umpires, and oftentimes, they have very similar stories. In fact, I was just re-listening the other day to one of my episodes, a conversation I had with a </span><span data-contrast= "auto">M</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ajor </span><span data-contrast= "auto">L</span><span data-contrast="auto">eague umpire</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">... really, an umpire hero of mine named Tripp Gibson, who is one of many </span><span data-contrast= "auto">M</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ajor </span><span data-contrast= "auto">L</span><span data-contrast="auto">eague umpires that live here in the Puget Sound area. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">He was telling us about his first game</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. C</span><span data-contrast="auto">oach gets a little fired up, and in his very first game ever as an umpire, he </span><span data-contrast="auto">has to</span><span data-contrast="auto"> toss the coach. </span><span data-contrast="auto">The way Tripp described it, he says, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Yeah, so the gentleman, Pat, who brought me out, he met me after the game and gave me my check for 25 bucks and said, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">Well, good try, kid.</span><span data-contrast="auto">”</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Tripp said, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Good try? That was awesome! I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">m coming back tomorrow!</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’”</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">While most players get to take a </span><span data-contrast= "auto">field </span><span data-contrast= "auto">break </span><span data-contrast="auto">every half inning and between plate appearances, umpires</span><span data-contrast="auto"> never leave the field</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I would love for listeners of this show to maybe start thinking about umpires in a little different way</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,” Becker said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">The home team and the away team, they get to go in the dugout and relax every half inning</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-contrast="auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">But the umpires stay out there every pitch, every inning, every game, and for the </span><span data-contrast= "auto">M</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ajor </span><span data-contrast= "auto">L</span><span data-contrast="auto">eague guys, six to eight months in a row.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">That</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s got to be </span><span data-contrast="auto">really tough</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Harvey said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">Especially when the weather conditions aren</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">t prime for something like that.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Despite the difficult working conditions and tension</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">that comes from making calls</span><span data-contrast="auto">, umpires just want to do their job right and enhance the game</span><span data-contrast="auto">,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Becker said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">One thing that umpires like to hang their hat on is, if they can get through a game and nobody notices that they were even there, they had a pretty good game, right?</span><span data-contrast="auto">” he said. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">Because it</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s not our job to get in the way. It</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s not our game. We are there to serve. We</span><span data-contrast="auto">’r</span><span data-contrast= "auto">e there to go to work and enable and enhance that game that we</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re working at, and if we get that done, it</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s been a pretty good day at the office.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><b><span data-contrast="auto">Part 2:</span></b><b><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span></b><b><span data-contrast="auto">Self-Help Shelf</span></b><b><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span></b><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto"><img class="wp-image-2417 alignright" src= "https://podcast.sno-isle.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Self-Help-Shelf-1200x630-1.jpg" alt="Self-Help Shelf logo" width="288" height= "151" />“</span><span data-contrast="auto">This is Sarri Gilman with the Self-Help Shelf for Sno-Isle Libraries. The book I have for you today is </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><a href= "https://sno-isle.bibliocommons.com/item/show/1818684121"><span data-contrast="none">Eight Dates</span></a><span data-contrast= "auto">,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto"> by Dr. John Gottman and Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman. Oh yes, they</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re married, and they once ran the famous Love Lab where they researched couples and communication. Together, they now have the Gottman Institute in Seattle, where they share years of research on how to make marriage work and what predicts divorce. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">During COVID-19, not too many couples were having romantic dates, and your closeness and intimacy may feel like it was just lost in the pandemic, or maybe it was lost even before that. If you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re married or dating, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Eight Dates</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> is for you. The book gives you a guide on things to think about before each date, and you literally make a plan to go on eight dates together, and each date, you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re given a different topic with a whole different set of questions to ask each other. You practice listening and learning about each other, and even if you</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">ve been together for decades, I think you</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re going to get a lot out of this book, especially if you feel like your relationship needs attention and you wish you were closer. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Since we're in a pandemic, you</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re going to need to bring a little bit of creativity to your dates with your partner. Maybe it</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s a beach picnic or a date at home; it really doesn't matter where you are, because each date is a full discussion on a topic picked by the </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Gottmans</span><span data-contrast="auto">, with a guide to support you. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I do recommend that you each read a copy of the book so that you have some of the background material to think about before your date, or you could even read out loud to each other to prepare for your date. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">One of my favorite lines from the book is this one: </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">The goal of conflict is not to win or convince the other person that you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re right. In creating compromise, we </span><span data-contrast="auto">have to</span><span data-contrast="auto"> understand each other</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s core needs on the issues we are discussing, as well as each other</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s areas of flexibility. The goal is not to become identical; the goal is to understand each other.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">This book is also going to help you get a better understanding of each other's core needs. By going on the eight dates, you will have a much deeper understanding of each other, and you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re going to get tips that you can practice for each date, and my hope is that you just continue going on these deeper dive discussion dates in the future. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Eight Dates,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto"> by Doctors John and Julie Gottman, is available digitally from the Sno-Isle Libraries. Take good care of you, and remember, some books are almost as good as therapy.</span><span data-contrast="auto">”</span></p>

Episode thumbnail for Episode 62: Professor's academic research on racial strife leads to his first novel

August 26, 2020

Episode 62: Professor's academic research on racial strife leads to his first novel

<p><span data-contrast="auto">In Episode 62 of Sno-Isle Libraries Check It Out podcast, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">co-</span><span data-contrast="auto">hosts Ken Harvey and Tricia Lee talk to </span><span data-contrast= "auto">local </span><span data-contrast="auto">author Stewart Tolnay </span><span data-contrast="auto">and learn how h</span><span data-contrast="auto">e ha</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s </span><span data-contrast="auto">used his </span><span data-contrast="auto">study of American </span><span data-contrast= "auto">racial </span><span data-contrast= "auto">history </span><span data-contrast="auto">to create interesting fiction and nonfiction.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Tolnay is a Ph</span><span data-contrast="auto">.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">D</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-contrast="auto"> professor emeritus of </span><span data-contrast= "auto">s</span><span data-contrast="auto">ociology at the University of Washington. His first fiction novel, “</span><a href= "https://sno-isle.bibliocommons.com/item/show/1976134121"><span data-contrast="none">Less Than Righteous</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">,” features a Black Vietnam War veteran, his white girlfriend and the struggles they face as an interracial couple in Everett in 196</span><span data-contrast="auto">9</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast= "auto">Tolnay </span><span data-contrast="auto">is also the author or co-author of nonfiction works that include “The Bottom Rung: An African-American Family Life on Southern Farms”; “A Festival of Violence,” which </span><span data-contrast= "auto">analyzes</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Southern </span><span data-contrast= "auto">lynchings</span><span data-contrast="auto"> from 1882 to 1930; </span><span data-contrast="auto">and “</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Lynched,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> which </span><span data-contrast= "auto">studies</span><span data-contrast="auto"> the victims of Southern mob </span><span data-contrast= "auto">violence.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Tolnay’s</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> work</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">resonated with</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Harvey, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">the </span><span data-contrast="auto">Director of Communications</span><span data-contrast="auto"> for Sno-Isle Libraries</span><span data-contrast="auto">. H</span><span data-contrast="auto">arvey is</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Black</span><span data-contrast="auto">. He</span><span data-contrast="auto"> grew up in Mississippi</span><span data-contrast="auto"> at the dawn of the civil rights movement</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> when white</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> supremacist</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s </span><span data-contrast= "auto">killed</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Black people with near impunity</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Lee</span><span data-contrast= "auto">, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">the </span><span data-contrast="auto">Director of Inclusion, Equity and Development</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> for Sno-Isle Libraries</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,</span><span data-contrast="auto"> wanted to know more about Tolnay’s work </span><span data-contrast="auto">and research</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and how it dovetails with </span><span data-contrast="auto">the library district’s </span><span data-contrast= "auto">goals</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and objectives</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast= "auto">Tolnay </span><span data-contrast="auto">said it took him years of his own academic </span><span data-contrast= "auto">work </span><span data-contrast="auto">and encouragement from hi</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> wife before he could sit down and “write a novel.”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“Actually, it had been brewing in my mind for years as I was doing my academic research and realized there are some really important stories, interesting stories here, that might take us into dark corners of the American past that many people aren't familiar with,” Tolnay said. “That’s what got me motivated to try my hand at fiction.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Harvey wanted to know which writing was harder: </span><span data-contrast= "auto">creative </span><span data-contrast="auto">fiction or </span><span data-contrast= "auto">academic </span><span data-contrast= "auto">nonfiction?</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Academic writing is “</span><span data-contrast="auto">kind of formulaic almost, a template of here</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s the research question, here</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s the evidence, here</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s my interpretation of the evidence, here</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> my conclusion</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Tolnay said.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">It’s nothing like w</span><span data-contrast="auto">riting fiction.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">You start with a blank slate</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,” he said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">You have ideas about plot and characters in your head, but you somehow </span><span data-contrast="auto">have to bring order to that chaos. I understand some authors begin with a very detailed outline of their novels. That didn</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">t work for me, so I had to kind of search and find my way along this story as I went from chapter to chapter.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Lee </span><span data-contrast= "auto">wanted to know how Tolnay translated “some very heavy topics” on racial violence into fiction.</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> “Are there things that you found you couldn't express fully in nonfiction that you can express at a whole different level in fiction?” she asked.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">The academics, especially those like me who typically do highly statistical, quantitative work can be sometimes accused of, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Well, you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re leaving the people out of this.</span><span data-contrast="auto">’ </span><span data-contrast="auto">We</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re talking about patterns and trends and data, and where are the people? Where are the personal emotional experiences behind this?</span><span data-contrast="auto">” Tolnay said. “</span><span data-contrast="auto">That</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s what</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">writing </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Less Than Righteous</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto"> allowed me to do</span><span data-contrast="auto">,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> is to take those conclusions that I had drawn from my nonfiction writing and research and bring it down to a personal level, to try to highlight it in a way that is really more accessible to most readers I think.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast= "auto">Tolnay </span><span data-contrast="auto">knew he </span><span data-contrast="auto">had to tread carefully as he wrote</span><span data-contrast="auto"> the novel</span><span data-contrast="auto">. He’s white and </span><span data-contrast="auto">privileged, and </span><span data-contrast="auto">he didn’t want to be accused of cultural appropriation</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> by telling</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> a </span><span data-contrast="auto">story of a</span><span data-contrast="auto">n</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> oppressed social group</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. That happened</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">to </span><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><a href= "https://sno-isle.bibliocommons.com/item/show/1917586121"><span data-contrast="none">American Dirt</span></a><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> author Jeanine Cummins earlier this year.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I will admit, I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">d be a fool not to, that I don't know intimately the African American culture. I don</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">t know what it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s like to experience the fears, concerns and discrimination and prejudice of the African American population. That</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s just a deficit</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” he said. “But</span><span data-contrast="auto"> I spent 36 years trying to familiarize myself with the African American historical experience</span><span data-contrast="auto"> in m</span><span data-contrast="auto">y non-fiction books and my journal articles. I don</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">t know how else I could compensate for that deficit other than by what I</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ve tried to do over the last 36 years.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Less Than Righteous</span><span data-contrast="auto">” also</span><span data-contrast="auto"> has stories of working-class whites</span><span data-contrast="auto"> based on his own family experience,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> and </span><span data-contrast="auto">white supremacists</span><span data-contrast="auto"> that are not his experience</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I think it is acceptable to write about social groups to which you don</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">t belong, with two important caveats</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Tolnay said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">The first is that you recognize the potential risks and limitations of your work because of that deficit, and I do. The second would be that you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">d make a serious, intense effort to educate yourself about the group</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s experience, which I have.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Tolnay’s fictional story of </span><span data-contrast="auto">the Booker </span><span data-contrast="auto">family’s move from rur</span><span data-contrast="auto">al Georgia to the Pacific Northwest </span><span data-contrast="auto">has historical roots in the </span><span data-contrast= "auto">second </span><span data-contrast="auto">Great Migration of Black Americans from the </span><span data-contrast= "auto">South</span><span data-contrast="auto"> after World War II</span><span data-contrast="auto">. Tolnay set the Bookers in Everett, where he was born and graduated from high school and community college during the height of the Vietnam War protests.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I wanted to include an experience from the Great Migration in the story, and so (Booker patriarch) </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Mose</span><span data-contrast="auto"> had to go somewhere from Oconee County, Georgia. And the most likely place for him to go, based on my own experience, was the Pacific Northwest,” Tolnay said. “You often hear that writers should write about what they know. I think that's very true of ‘Less Than Righteous’ with the setting in Everett. It</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s also true with respect to the content of the story, and as </span><span data-contrast= "auto">(Lee)</span><span data-contrast="auto"> mentioned, this is a dark story.</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">The disturbing scenes, many of them, are drawn from actual events.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">While the South has struggled with racial equality for centuries, the Pacific Northwest </span><span data-contrast= "auto">isn't </span><span data-contrast= "auto">innocent</span><span data-contrast="auto">, Tolna</span><span data-contrast="auto">y said.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“The original Oregon State Constitution written in 1851 actually prohibited</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> ‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Blacks and mulattoes’ from moving into the state,” he said. “But it wasn't actually repealed until 1926. In 2002, when the words were removed from the Constitution of Oregon, 30</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> percent</span><span data-contrast="auto"> of Oregon voters chose to retain </span><span data-contrast= "auto">the </span><span data-contrast= "auto">language. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">W</span><span data-contrast="auto">e can try to sit on our high horse and be very judgmental about the ignorant, racist Southerners, but it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s important to look closer to home as well.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Tolnay has seen that </span><span data-contrast= "auto">kind</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> of </span><span data-contrast= "auto">discrimination </span><span data-contrast= "auto">here</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast="auto">In 2014, he moved to</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> a </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Shoreline </span><span data-contrast= "auto">neighborhood </span><span data-contrast= "auto">that</span><span data-contrast="auto"> was developed by William Boeing in the 1940s. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">In 2005, the homeowners’ association </span><span data-contrast="auto">rejected an amendment to</span><span data-contrast="auto"> the original covenant that </span><span data-contrast= "auto">prevented </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">people of the non-Caucasian races and Jews</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> from living </span><span data-contrast= "auto">there</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast="auto">The racial restriction was removed </span><span data-contrast="auto">in 2006</span><span data-contrast="auto"> because it was unenforceable</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Now, that's not that all that uncommon</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Tolnay said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">There were racial restrictive covenants for many, many neighborhoods in Seattle and elsewhere. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">So,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s something that strikes very close to home and something that I think it behooves Pacific Northwesterners to be aware of.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Lee concurred.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“It doesn’t surprise me, and I think it is a nice reminder that these things, they’re still things today,” she said. “I think a lot of the things that we’re hearing today in the news and elsewhere, it’s a direct correlation to the history. It’s a deep wound that's a hard one to fill and a hard one for us to reconcile our history as a nation and the impacts it has long term on the communities that were targeted with these policies. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">W</span><span data-contrast="auto">e sometimes forget about that. Or </span><span data-contrast="auto">it wasn</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">t in history books. I think it wasn</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">t until I went to college and spent some time in the African American studies department that I was like, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Whoa! There</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s this whole history that we were never taught and didn't realize.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><b><span data-contrast="auto">Part 2: </span></b><b><span data-contrast="auto">Self-Help Shelf</span></b><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335551550":1,"335551620":1,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto"><img class= " wp-image-2417 alignright" src= "https://podcast.sno-isle.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Self-Help-Shelf-1200x630-1.jpg" alt="Self-Help Shelf logo" width="345" height= "181" />“</span><span data-contrast="auto">This is Sarri Gilman with the Self-Help Shelf for Sno-Isle Libraries. The book I have for you today is a children's book for age</span><span data-contrast="auto">s 4-7</span><span data-contrast="auto"> years old, </span><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><a href= "https://sno-isle.bibliocommons.com/item/show/8758121"><span data-contrast="none">Amazing Grace</span></a><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> by Mary Hoffman and illustrated by Caroline </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Binch</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">T</span><span data-contrast="auto">he illustrations in this book are timeless. And though the book was written more than 25 years ago, the words and pictures are completely relevant today as many of us are having conversations about racism. This is a book to bring your child into those conversations. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">The book is about a girl named Grace who likes to dress up and play </span><span data-contrast="auto">different parts</span><span data-contrast="auto"> from movie and book characters. Grace is in costumes on several of the pages, and your children are going to recognize many of these costumes. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">She tries out for the school play and is told by another child that she </span><span data-contrast= "auto">can't</span><span data-contrast="auto"> play Peter Pan in the school play because </span><span data-contrast= "auto">she</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> a girl and because she</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s Black. I recommend this book for </span><span data-contrast="auto">boys and girls</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and for children of all colors. I think all children will be challenged by the questions raised in this book, and </span><span data-contrast= "auto">it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ll</span><span data-contrast="auto"> allow for a really </span><span data-contrast="auto">good conversation</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I love the illustrations in this book. They are large and </span><span data-contrast= "auto">they</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">re</span><span data-contrast="auto"> focused on Grace and her creativity. You can see Grace</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s imagination and genius in these illustrations. Grace could be friends with any child. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“ ‘</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Amazing Grace</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">is </span><a href= "https://sno-isle.bibliocommons.com/item/show/8758121"><span data-contrast="none">available digitally</span></a><span data-contrast="auto"> from Sno-Isle Libraries. Take </span><span data-contrast="auto">good care</span><span data-contrast="auto"> of you and remember: Some books are </span><span data-contrast="auto">almost as</span><span data-contrast="auto"> good as therapy.</span><span data-contrast="auto">”</span></p>

Episode thumbnail for Episode 61: Peek inside the childlike mind of Chris Ballew and meet Caspar Babypants

June 1, 2020

Episode 61: Peek inside the childlike mind of Chris Ballew and meet Caspar Babypants

<p><strong>Part 1: You Don’t Wanna Be a Rock-and-Roll Star </strong></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Chris Ballew </span><span data-contrast="auto">lived the</span><span data-contrast="auto"> rock-and-roll l</span><span data-contrast="auto">ife</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">As </span><span data-contrast= "auto">frontman</span><span data-contrast="auto"> for the late, great Presidents of the United States of America, he wrote infectious, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">goofy, </span><span data-contrast="auto">catchy hits about “Peaches”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and a “Dune Buggy” </span><span data-contrast= "auto">when </span><span data-contrast= "auto">heavy </span><span data-contrast= "auto">grunge</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> dominated </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Seatt</span><span data-contrast="auto">le’s FM radio </span><span data-contrast= "auto">waves</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">He t</span><span data-contrast="auto">oured all over the world. </span><span data-contrast="auto">He p</span><span data-contrast="auto">layed to packed arenas and stadiums. </span><span data-contrast="auto">He e</span><span data-contrast="auto">ven won</span><span data-contrast="auto"> a Grammy award.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">But that’s </span><span data-contrast="auto">the old</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Chris Ballew.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Today, Ballew is a genial, funny everyman</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> who </span><span data-contrast="auto">now can </span><span data-contrast="auto">laugh about his discomfort</span><span data-contrast="auto"> with his “Presidents” fame</span><span data-contrast="auto">. H</span><span data-contrast="auto">e’s</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> still </span><span data-contrast= "auto">well-known</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">and beloved </span><span data-contrast="auto">in the Seattle music scene. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">He </span><span data-contrast="auto">still makes </span><span data-contrast="auto">infectious, goofy, catchy </span><span data-contrast= "auto">music </span><span data-contrast="auto">that his fans love.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">And those are fans of </span><a href= "https://babypantsmusic.com/home"><span data-contrast= "none">Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "none">Babypants</span></a><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Yes,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Chris Ballew </span><span data-contrast= "auto">has become</span><span data-contrast="auto"> a children’s musician</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast="auto">He loves it. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">L</span><span data-contrast="auto">ittle kids love it. And the kids’ parents, who grew up listening to the Presidents of the Unites States of America,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> they</span><span data-contrast="auto"> love it</span><span data-contrast= "auto">, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">too</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">We told a friend about </span><span data-contrast= "auto">our </span><span data-contrast="auto">Check It Out! </span><span data-contrast= "auto">p</span><span data-contrast="auto">odcast interview with Ballew.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast= "auto">“Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Babypants</span><span data-contrast="auto">, you mean the guy from The Presidents of the USA</span><span data-contrast= "auto">?</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> COOL!!”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Ye</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s</span><span data-contrast="auto">, Check It Out! </span><span data-contrast= "auto">p</span><span data-contrast="auto">odcast hosts Kurt </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Batdorf</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and Paul Pitkin found it </span><span data-contrast= "auto">very </span><span data-contrast="auto">cool to talk about</span><span data-contrast="auto"> music and creativity with the one and only Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Babypants</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">When Ballew decided he’d had enough of rock</span><span data-contrast= "auto">-and-</span><span data-contrast= "auto">roll</span><span data-contrast="auto"> and hopped off the “pony that was (making) gold bricks</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> it wasn’t a big musical leap </span><span data-contrast="auto">for him to change things up. It’s easy to hear si</span><span data-contrast= "auto">milarities between “</span><a href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvAnQqVJ3XQ"><span data-contrast= "none">Peaches</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">” of 25 years ago and the current “</span><a href= "https://youtu.be/zlP-J5rssa0"><span data-contrast="none">Noodles and Butter</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">,” or between “</span><a href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM1xsTCk_g4"><span data-contrast= "none">Dune Buggy</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">” and “</span><a href="https://youtu.be/8rRpcSN1F0g"><span data-contrast= "none">Butterfly Driving a Truck</span></a><span data-contrast= "auto">.” </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">They’re all goofy </span><span data-contrast="auto">and funny </span><span data-contrast="auto">and infectious.</span><span data-contrast="auto"> And as Ballew says, “</span><span data-contrast="auto">That’s just the sound I make, and I’ve been making </span><span data-contrast= "auto">that sound</span><span data-contrast="auto"> my whole life</span><span data-contrast="auto">, really</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">When the Presidents became a thing in Seattle music in the early 1990s, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">it was a matter of good timing, Ballew said.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">The music scene at the time was ‘heavy,’ and not bad, but it </span><span data-contrast= "auto">just </span><span data-contrast="auto">had a very visceral</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,</span><span data-contrast="auto"> kind of </span><span data-contrast= "auto">heavy,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">grungy vibe,” he said. “</span><span data-contrast= "auto">And </span><span data-contrast="auto">I think people were</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> really</span><span data-contrast="auto"> enjoying it, but they also </span><span data-contrast="auto">wanted just some candy, you know, some</span><span data-contrast= "auto">thing really</span><span data-contrast="auto"> fun and bouncy</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-contrast="auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">The Presidents satisfied that craving</span><span data-contrast="auto"> at the right time</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast="auto">And now, Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Babypants</span><span data-contrast="auto"> satisfies Ballew’s innate “childlike” nature.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">As Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Babypants</span><span data-contrast= "auto">, </span><span data-contrast="auto">people ask me </span><span data-contrast="auto">like, ‘How d</span><span data-contrast="auto">o you make this music for children?’ and I tell them, ‘I </span><span data-contrast= "auto">really </span><span data-contrast="auto">don’t make </span><span data-contrast="auto">it for children, I make it for myself,</span><span data-contrast="auto"> number one,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’” </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Ball</span><span data-contrast="auto">ew said. “</span><span data-contrast="auto">And I am just childlike. I live my life like a child. It happens to resonate with kids, but it</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s really pleasing me. So, I think that</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s how it kind of works. So, yeah. I was just pleasing myself, and it turned out to please a whole bunch of other people too.</span><span data-contrast="auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">The </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Presidents of the United States of America released three studio recordings,</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> but</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Babypants</span><span data-contrast="auto"> has been much more prolific: </span><span data-contrast= "auto">1</span><span data-contrast= "auto">8</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> albums </span><span data-contrast= "auto">released </span><span data-contrast="auto">between 2009 and 2019.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Ballew</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> has </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">thousands and thousands of little recordings”</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast= "auto">constantly </span><span data-contrast="auto">running through his head as part</span><span data-contrast="auto"> of his creative process. </span><span data-contrast="auto">He’ll play something for a few minutes and sing a little melody</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“You never know what it might grow into,” he said. “So, I record it. In that sense, I’m always kind of allowing myself to just make a little mess, and not try to make sense of it. And then, maybe later, I’ll figure out what it is, after forgetting a</span><span data-contrast="auto">bout the initial, sort of moment of creation. I’m constantly recording tiny little bits.”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">It means Ballew has a lot of material to draw from</span><span data-contrast="auto">, and a lot of songs ready to go</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-contrast="auto"> His laptop is full of songs in various states of the recording process.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“When it’s time to make a record, I listen to all of them, and I just cherry-pick the most developed, the clearest, the most successful </span><span data-contrast= "auto">20</span><span data-contrast="auto">, and make it into an album," he said. “I’m always working on a giant amount. And then, as a record comes due, I focus on the ones that just need the extra push, to kind of be perfect.”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">It also means some of Ballew’s songs don’t see the light of day for </span><span data-contrast= "auto">a long time</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I have this new song that I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">m very excited about. I don</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">t think it will come out until 2022,</span><span data-contrast="auto">” he said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“I’ve</span><span data-contrast="auto"> got three records almost </span><span data-contrast= "auto">ready</span><span data-contrast="auto"> for the next three years. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">It</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s called </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Live Like </span><span data-contrast= "auto">a</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Baby.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto"> And it's about how I, as an adult, just want to live like a baby.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Not with</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> the downsides of being a baby</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> though.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I mean, the freedom, and the way of experiencing the world as a purely energetic playpen. That's kind of my attitude</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Ballew said</span><span data-contrast="auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">He usually plays a three-string acoustic guitar as Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "auto">B</span><span data-contrast= "auto">abypants</span><span data-contrast="auto">, similar to the stripped-down two-string bass he </span><span data-contrast= "auto">usually </span><span data-contrast="auto">played with </span><span data-contrast= "auto">the </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Presidents.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“I</span><span data-contrast="auto">t creates a really interesting sound</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,” Pitkin </span><span data-contrast="auto">said. “It’s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> unusual, it makes its own sound.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Ballew said it makes him </span><span data-contrast="auto">play guitar</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">more like a bass player. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">It sounds more rhythmic and chunky</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” he said. “</span><span data-contrast="auto">I kind of think about early Johnny Cash when I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">m playing a lot.</span><span data-contrast="auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">The simpler, rhythmic sound is </span><span data-contrast="auto">easier for Ballew to play by himself.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“And kids respond to that,” he said. “They respond to the rhythm. And they want to get up, and dance, and move around.”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">That feeds </span><span data-contrast= "auto">hi</span><span data-contrast="auto">s soul now</span><span data-contrast="auto">, and</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> Caspar </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Babyp</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ants</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">has brought Ballew full circle</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">When the President' started out, we were this goofy little band of dorks that were trying to rock</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast="auto">And in trying to rock, I think we endeared ourselves to our audience. They were like, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Oh, those poor little guys on stage. Look at them trying to play a Led Zeppelin song</span><span data-contrast="auto">,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">” Ballew said.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“I love it, because I</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">m back to being a dorky little guy, trying to rock. Because I</span><span data-contrast="auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">m by myself, I think the empathetic reaction from the crowd is even more intense. If I ask for call and response, I definitely get it. Because I</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">m this tiny little guy on stage, trying to pull something off. And the crowd</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> like, </span><span data-contrast="auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Yes, we want to help.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><strong><img class=" wp-image-2417 alignright" src= "https://podcast.sno-isle.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Self-Help-Shelf-1200x630-1.jpg" alt="Self-Help Shelf logo" width="400" height="210" />Part 2: Help with grief from the Self-Help Shelf </strong></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">If you’re dealing with grief, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Sarri</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Gilman recommends “</span><a href= "https://sno-isle.bibliocommons.com/item/show/1835544121"><span data-contrast="none">Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief</span></a><span data-contrast= "auto">” by David Kessler for the Self-Help Shelf</span><span data-contrast= "auto">.</span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">David is considered one of the world's leading experts on grief</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Gilman said</span><span data-contrast="auto"> of Kessler</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">He</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">s written several books on the subject. And this book, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">‘</span><span data-contrast="auto">Finding Meaning,</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto"> is my favorite of his books.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">In </span><span data-contrast= "auto">this book</span><span data-contrast="auto">, Kessler focuses</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> on </span><span data-contrast="auto">the traumatic </span><span data-contrast="auto">loss of a loved one</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast="auto">Losing loved ones is a journey through many feelings. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">Traumatic grief has some layers of feelings that can be hard to navigate, because we may not have experienced them before</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Gilman said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">And traumatic grief is particularly hard to do alone. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">T</span><span data-contrast="auto">his book is truly a helpful companion. It feels like David is in the room with you, reviewing stories of traumatic grief, and how</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">people have carried those losses.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Kessler’s words and pacing</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">are careful and thoughtful, which makes it easily readable in th</span><span data-contrast= "auto">e </span><span data-contrast="auto">grieving process.</span><span data-contrast= "auto"> He</span><span data-contrast="auto"> writes about his own traumatic grief </span><span data-contrast= "auto">sensitively,</span><span data-contrast="auto"> the same way he writes about other </span><span data-contrast= "auto">people</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast= "auto">s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> traumatic losses. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">He</span><span data-contrast="auto"> talks about the feelings we carry when we</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">re grieving, and it is coupled with a trauma. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">I think if you have experienced this kind of loss, you</span><span data-contrast="auto">’r</span><span data-contrast= "auto">e going to feel understood</span><span data-contrast= "auto">,” Gilman said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">You</span><span data-contrast= "auto">’</span><span data-contrast="auto">ll realize that you are not alone.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast= "auto">During </span><span data-contrast="auto">the coronavirus pandemic</span><span data-contrast="auto">, you may </span><span data-contrast="auto">feel even more</span><span data-contrast="auto"> loss and grief</span><span data-contrast="auto"> unrelated to a death</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“Alth</span><span data-contrast= "auto">ough this book was written to support people who experienced a death, I think it applies to many losses</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Gilman said</span><span data-contrast="auto">.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> Traumatic grief can also come up from other kinds of losses like a divorce where there was abuse, loss of a child to addiction. I think this book is actually going to be very helpful, if you have traumatic grief for other kinds of reasons.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">I</span><span data-contrast="auto">t doesn't have to be a recent loss. Often with traumatic grief, it could take a few years </span><span data-contrast="auto">to process feelings</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">“</span><span data-contrast= "auto">During COVID-19, other losses that you had previously may be brought to the surface</span><span data-contrast="auto">,” Gilman said</span><span data-contrast= "auto">. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“</span><span data-contrast="auto">And you may be feeling the trauma and grief, all over again, because COVID-19 has brought up a lot of loss and grief.</span><span data-contrast= "auto">”</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">I</span><span data-contrast="auto">f this is your experience, </span><span data-contrast= "auto">“Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief”</span><span data-contrast="auto"> will be very helpful. </span><span data-contrast= "auto">It’s</span><span data-contrast="auto"> available digitally from </span><span data-contrast= "auto">Sno</span><span data-contrast="auto">-Isle Libraries.</span><span data-ccp-props= "{"201341983":0,"335559739":160,"335559740":259}"> </span></p>

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A podcast from Sno-Isle Libraries for lifelong learners with inquiring minds. Check It Out! introduces the amazing people who work at, use and collaborate with the library district – and all of the services it offers to residents of Washington State's Snohomish and Island counties.

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