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Complicating The Narrative

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by Salma Abdalla

5.0(5 reviews)

28 episodes

Updated Daily

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Podcast Overview

In this podcast, hosted by Dr. Salma Abdalla—Assistant Professor and Director of the Healthier Futures Lab at Washington University in St. Louis—we provide rigorous, evidence-based analysis of complex population health challenges. In a time of social, economic, and political upheaval—marked by eroding public trust, polarized narratives, and growing uncertainty—this podcast aims to challenge oversimplified narratives about the forces that shape the health of populations. Salma engages guests from across disciplines in rigorous, evidence-based conversations that challenge conventional wisdom. The conversations sometimes pose uncomfortable questions, seek nuanced perspectives, and question not just what we think, but how we arrive at our conclusions in public health. We explore the inherent complexities, real-world tradeoffs, and unintended consequences of public health interventions. Our goal is to empower listeners with nuanced understanding, helping them navigate these multifaceted issues in an informed and balanced way. The podcast is supported by the Washington University School of Public Health — https://schoolofpublichealth.washu.edu — and the Frick Initiative. Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Zachary Linhares Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ Contact us at: s.abdalla@wustl.edu

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Publishing Since

7/21/2025

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Recent Episodes

June 23, 2026

What the data can and cannot tell us about our health with Katherine Keyes

Katherine Keyes joins Salma to discuss the strengths and limitations of epidemiology, beginning with the gap between what averages tell us about populations and what they fail to predict about individuals. They explore how that gap is a frequent source of public misunderstanding, how self-experimentation can mislead through placebo effects and confounding, and why public health needs to be more transparent and humble about the strengths and limitations of its evidence base. As Katherine and Salma argue, the public can handle nuance when it is communicated honestly. They then turn to what makes a research question worth asking, arguing that good questions should aim probe where existing theories produce anomalies in addition to expanding the existing evidence base, and that the questions any of us can ask are shaped by the "thought collectives" we operate within. Drawing on Katherine's work in psychiatric epidemiology, they discuss why rising mental health trends are likely multifactorial, before closing on the importance of engaging communities and carrying knowledge beyond traditional academic environments. This episode invites you to look beyond the data, to understand the context in which it was produced, recognize its limits, and consider what it means to communicate those limits honestly to the public. About the guest: Dr. Katherine Keyes is the Susan Lasker Brody Professor of Population Mental Health and Vice Chair for Research at the Columbia Mailman School of Public Health. Her research focuses on psychiatric and substance use epidemiology across the life course, with a particular interest in methodological challenges and in outcomes such as suicide and overdose. Notes: Acronyms mentioned in this episode include: DSM = Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders GLP-1 = Glucagon-Like Peptide-1 RCT = Randomized Controlled Trial Useful resources: Keyes KM. What Makes Something Worth Knowing? Epistemology and Public Health Impact. Epidemiology. 2026;37(3):371-373. doi:1097/EDE.0000000000001957 Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

June 19, 2026

Purple Public Health episode—Disagreement as a starting point with Brinda Adhikari

How can you engage in healthy and fruitful conversation with people who think differently? Brinda Adhikari joins Salma to discuss the importance of healthy disagreement and unpack how conversations between people who think differently can look like. Reflecting on Brinda’s experience in journalism and especially as co-host of “Why Should I Trust You?”—bringing together public health experts, physicians, and people deeply skeptical of both—they discuss the tools to set up and facilitate a hard conversation and the importance of engaging in these conversations to understand others’ points of view rather than to persuading them to change their positions. They also touch on some of the challenges that arise when facilitating these conversations and highlight why connection is a better measure of success. As Brinda points out, hard conversations should be treated as dinner parties, where debates can get rowdy, but people end the night wanting to meet again. In a time of increasing mistrust and intolerance, this conversation will invite you to explore how to engage and connect across differences. About the guest: Brinda Adhikari is Co-Host, Co-Creator and Executive Producer of the top ranked “Why Should I Trust You?” podcast, which explores the erosion of trust in science and public health. She has over 25 years of experience in impactful storytelling and leadership across the streaming, digital, podcast and broadcast space, as a leader, producer, reporter, and a strategist. Notes: Acronyms mentioned in this conversation include: MAHA — Make America Healthy Again NIH — National Institutes of Health APHA — American Public Health Association AI — Artificial Intelligence Useful resources: Why Should I Trust You (podcast): Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-should-i-trust-you/id1788335471 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ZvjT4Ls8Q54whJXCrdpjD?si=7a9f1d6ce57a4a82 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@whyshoulditrustyou Edelman Trust Institute. 2026 Edelman Trust Barometer Special Report Trust and Health. 2026. https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2026-04/2026%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer%20Special%20Report%20Trust%20and%20Health_Final.pdf O’Brian NA, Kent TB. Partisanship and Trust in Personal Doctors: Causes and Consequences. Brit J Polit Sci. 2025;55:e34. doi:1017/S0007123424000607 Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

June 16, 2026

From public health evidence to action with Alonzo Plough

What does it take to close the gap between evidence and action in public health? As part of the first episode of the Building Better Ways of Knowing mini-series, Alonzo Plough joins Salma to reflect on the inaugural convening of the initiative and to discuss the expectations for the project and future convenings. They discuss the mismatches between the evidence generated in academia and the knowledge needed to improve population health. They explore the mechanisms for incorporating community knowledge in the knowledge production system in a more "valid" way while still maintaining rigor and standards, and the importance of primary data and the evolution of its role and acquisition in the era of AI. They also discuss the gap between training of public health students and what they do in practice. They also analyze public health communications—with Alonzo providing a strategy to navigate what media to consume and how to consume it to mitigate biases—and the deterioration of trust and increased polarization of science. This conversation will challenge you to question whether public health has been asking the right questions and to imagine what better ones might look like. About the guest: Alonzo Plough, PhD, MPH is Chief Science Officer and Vice President Research-Evaluation-Learning at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, where he works on broadening what counts as valid evidence, diversifying the health science workforce, building equitable data systems, and understanding how place and environment drive health inequities. He previously worked in academia and directed public health departments in Boston, Seattle, and Los Angeles. Notes: Acronyms mentioned in this episode include: CDC = Centers for Disease Control and Prevention MAHA = Make America Healthy Again MD = Doctor of Medicine MPH = Master of Public Health PAHO = Pan American Health Organization RWJF = Rober Wood Johnson Foundation WHO = World Health Organization Fact-check: In minute 16:00, Salma mentions we launched a survey looking at trust in institutions across eight countries and found that trust in scientists and academia in the US was reported by 42% of respondents. The survey found that 48.0% of US respondents reported high trust in scientists and academia. Useful resources: Abdalla, S., Melendez Contreras, C., Wang, Y. et al.Institutional and social trust across eight countries: distribution across sociodemographic groups and relevance for population health. Humanit Soc Sci Commun (2026). https://doi.org/10.1057/s41599-026-07684-0 Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editor: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Helmut Schenker / Omnia from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/music/tracks/60e14d61-23ca-4899-9c56-9a9018634986/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

28 total episodes available

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What is Complicating The Narrative?: In this podcast, hosted by Dr. Salma Abdalla—Assistant Professor and Director of the Healthier Futures Lab at Washington University in St. Louis—we provide rigorous, evidence-based analysis of complex population health challenges. In a time of social, economic, and political upheaval—marked by eroding public trust, polarized narratives, and growing uncertainty—this podcast aims to challenge oversimplified narratives about the forces that shape the health of populations.

Salma engages guests from across disciplines in rigorous, evidence-based conversations that challenge conventional wisdom. The conversations sometimes pose uncomfortable questions, seek nuanced perspectives, and question not just what we think, but how we arrive at our conclusions in public health. We explore the inherent complexities, real-world tradeoffs, and unintended consequences of public health interventions. Our goal is to empower listeners with nuanced understanding, helping them navigate these multifaceted issues in an informed and balanced way.

The podcast is supported by the Washington University School of Public Health — https://schoolofpublichealth.washu.edu — and the Frick Initiative.

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Zachary Linhares Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

Contact us at: s.abdalla@wustl.edu
How often does this podcast release new episodes?: This podcast updates daily.
Where can I listen to this podcast?: This podcast is available on 4 platforms including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. You can also use the RSS feed directly.
Does this podcast accept guests?: Yes, this podcast regularly features guests.

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