Complicating The Narrative

About Complicating The Narrative

In this podcast, hosted by Dr. Salma Abdalla—Assistant Professor and Director of the Healthier Futures Lab at Washington University in St. Louis—we provide rigorous, evidence-based analysis of complex population health challenges. In a time of social, economic, and political upheaval—marked by eroding public trust, polarized narratives, and growing uncertainty—this podcast aims to challenge oversimplified narratives about the forces that shape the health of populations. Salma engages guests from across disciplines in rigorous, evidence-based conversations that challenge conventional wisdom. The conversations sometimes pose uncomfortable questions, seek nuanced perspectives, and question not just what we think, but how we arrive at our conclusions in public health. We explore the inherent complexities, real-world tradeoffs, and unintended consequences of public health interventions. Our goal is to empower listeners with nuanced understanding, helping them navigate these multifaceted issues in an informed and balanced way. The podcast is supported by the Washington University School of Public Health — https://schoolofpublichealth.washu.edu — and the Frick Initiative. Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Zachary Linhares Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ Contact us at: s.abdalla@wustl.edu

Publisher

Salma Abdalla

Category

science

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

21 Jul 2025

Latest episode

20 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

41 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   20 Oct 2026

   Transferable skills, entrepreneurialism, and climate change in public health with Sandro Demaio

   How does a medical doctor go from managing patients’ blood sugar and kidney failure to designing global health policy, and now to leading action on climate change? Sandro Demaio joins Salma to discuss his career from working as a clinician to leading health and climate change work for the Western Pacific Region of the WHO. They explore the skills that transfer across his roles in medicine and public health—systems thinking, communication, and entrepreneurship—and examine why public health is often uncomfortable with that last word. They also discuss Sandro’s experience as a public communicator and advocate, from newspaper columns to a Netflix series to getting national vaping legislation through Parliament. Finally, they turn to climate change and discuss how to keep working on the same problems, while reframing the narrative, when the political or social environment isn’t receptive. This episode invites you to reflect on why careers are rarely well-defined or linear, which skills transfer across roles, and how an entrepreneurial mindset can help public health keep pace with a changing world. About the guest: Sandro Demaio is the Director of the WHO Asia-Pacific Centre for Environment and Health, based in Seoul. He is a physician with a PhD in noncommunicable diseases. His experience spans the World Health Organization in Geneva, where he worked on nutrition and food systems; leading the EAT Foundation through the launch of the EAT-Lancet Commission; running Victoria’s health promotion agency through the pandemic; and co-hosting a medical series that aired on national television in Australia and on Netflix. Notes: Acronyms used in this episode include: AI: artificial intelligence CEO: chief executive officer GP: general practitioner MPH: Master of Public Health NCD / NCDs: noncommunicable disease(s) PhD: Doctor of Philosophy UN: United Nations VicHealth: Victorian Health Promotion Foundation WHO: World Health Organization Useful resources: Ask The Doctor. Netflix; 2017. https://www.netflix.com/title/81003997 Demaio S, Edwards SJ, Ji JS, Nordström A, Shinee E, Mercado S. The next five years of the WHO Asia–Pacific Centre for Environment and Health. The Lancet Regional Health - Western Pacific. 2026;66:101782. doi:10.1016/j.lanwpc.2025.101782 Willett W, Rockström J, Loken B, et al. Food in the Anthropocene: the EAT–Lancet Commission on healthy diets from sustainable food systems. The Lancet. 2019;393(10170):447-492. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(18)31788-4 If you have any questions or feedback, email us at healthierfutureslab@wustl.edu. Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Producer: Catalina Melendez Contreras Production assistant: Mateo Diaz Quiroz Marketing and social media: Kinkini Bhaduri Research for episode preparation: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Mateo Diaz Quiroz Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

2. 

   6 Oct 2026

   Vaccine skepticism, political polarization, and the health risks of ads with Matthew Motta

   How much of what you believe about health comes from your political identity and who you are listening to? Matt Motta joins Salma to explore how political identity shapes what people believe about health. They start by discussing vaccines, revisiting the story of how a Lyme disease vaccine for humans failed to be socially accepted after it launched in 1998, and then turn to why vaccines have become a way to signal where you stand rather than a technical question. They cover state vaccine legislation, the stigmatization of mRNA vaccines after the COVID-19 pandemic, and where healthy scrutiny of new vaccines ends and stigma begins. They then shift the conversation to discuss effective communication strategies, with Matt describing his field experiments with social media creators, discussing his current research on gambling ads and reflecting on what it has been like to communicate his own research to the public about politically contested topics. This episode invites you to pause and reflect on the effects of the advertisements and information you come across before making your next health decisions. About the guest Matthew Motta is an Associate Professor of Health Law, Policy, & Management at Boston University's School of Public Health. He is also Affiliated Faculty with Harvard's TH Chan School of Public Health and a Research Fellow at the Policy Lab at Brown University. His research has two main foci around (i) the social and political determinants of anti-science attitudes and (ii) the design of effective communication strategies pertaining politically contentious scientific matters. Notes Acronyms used in this episode include: AI: Artificial intelligence AJPH: American Journal of Public Health BU: Boston University CDC: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention CFTC: Commodity Futures Trading Commission GLP-1: Glucagon-like peptide-1 GOP: Grand Old Party (also known as Republican Party) HIV: Human immunodeficiency virus KFF: Kaiser Family Foundation MAGA: Make America Great Again MAHA: Make America Healthy Again MMR: measles, mumps, rubella mRNA: Messenger ribonucleic acid PAHO: Pan American Health Organization Useful resources: Liu Y, Motta M, Brenna K, et al. Training TikTok creators in mental health communication can benefit their audiences. Computers in Human Behavior Reports. 2026;22:101101. doi:10.1016/j.chbr.2026.101101 Louis C, Ross JC, Motta M. Sports Betting Ads are Everywhere. That Could be a Public Health Problem. J Gambl Stud. 2026;42(3):1321-1325. doi:10.1007/s10899-026-10497-0 Motta M. Anti-Scientific Americans: The Prevalence, Origins, and Political Consequences of Anti-Intellectualism in the U.S. Oxford University Press; 2024. Motta M, Callaghan T. Quantifying the Polarization of Vaccine Policymaking Across State Legislatures. Published online 2026. Motta M, Callaghan T, Lipson SK, Ross J, Strombotne K, Louis C. The Public Health Impact of GLP-1 Advertising Exposure in the U.S. SocArXiv. Preprint posted online January 16, 2026. doi:10.31235/osf.io/gs5x4_v1 Motta M. The potential public health consequences of “mRNA vaccine stigmatization” in the US. Polit life sci. Published online July 31, 2026:1-10. doi:10.1017/pls.2026.10027 Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editor and producer: Catalina Melendez Contreras Production assistant: Mateo Diaz Quiroz Marketing and social media: Kinkini Bhaduri Research for episode preparation: Catalina Melendez Contreras Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

3. 

   22 Sept 2026

   Ebola, MAHA, and what public health stops hearing with Craig Spencer

   Why does public health still struggle to be trusted both at home and abroad? Craig and Salma discuss the current Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which has disappeared from the news but continues building up to be the largest outbreak in history.  They discuss Craig’s personal experience as an Ebola survivor in 2014, and analyze how Ebola, and other global health emergencies, can seem very different from an epidemiologic perspective versus the perspective of the community living through it. They then pivot to discuss domestic public health and Craig’s recent piece in The Atlantic highlighting that public health needs to take seriously the roughly 40% of Americans who support the MAHA movement and critiques of the piece, as well as Craig’s work on In Health We trust project. This episode invites you to step outside the biomedical lens of public health crises and listen to people to understand their priorities from a social and humane standpoint. About the guest: Craig Spencer is an emergency physician and an Associate Professor of the Practice of Health Services, Policy and Practice at the Brown University School of Public Health. His research is focused on community engagement and public trust in health systems, both in global and domestic settings. His current community-engaged research program, In Health We Trust, is focused on understanding how Americans relate to health, and aims to serve as a foundation for building a more responsive and equitable US public health system. Notes: Acronyms used in this episode include: AAP = American Academy of Pediatrics DC = Washington, DC DRC = Democratic Republic of Congo DOGE = Department of Government Efficiency EKG = Electrocardiogram FDA = Food and Drug Administration HHS = Health and Human Services HIV = Human Immunodeficiency Virus IRBs = Institutional Review Boards MAGA = Make America Great Again MAHA = Make America Healthy Again NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organization NIH = National Institutes of Health PEPFAR = President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief ROI = Return on investment UK = United Kingdom US = United States USAID = United States Agency for International Development WHO = World Health Organization Useful resources: Spencer C. Public Health Needs MAHA. The Atlantic. July 25, 2026. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/07/public-health-maha-rfk/688014/ If you have any questions or feedback, email us at healthierfutureslab@wustl.edu. Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Producer: Catalina Melendez Contreras Production assistant: Mateo Diaz Quiroz Marketing and social media: Kinkini Bhaduri Research for episode preparation: Catalina Melendez Contreras Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

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Apple Podcasts (US)

5.0 / 5

8 ratings

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