a philosophy podcast about neurodivergence <br/><br/><a href="https://neurodiving.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast">neurodiving.substack.com</a>
NeuroDiving
Claim This Podcastby Amelia Hicks
5.0(9 reviews)
8 episodes
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a philosophy podcast about neurodivergence <br/><br/><a href="https://neurodiving.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast">neurodiving.substack.com</a>
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Publishing Since
11/3/2023
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Recent Episodes
August 7, 2025
Episode 7: "Deliberative Empathy"
<p>We did it! We’ve arrived at the final episode of Season 1. </p><p>This episode picks up where episode 6 left off, by diving even deeper into the question: what’s the relationship between empathy and morality?</p><p>As always, you can find a (not Substack-generated) transcript of the episode, as well as a music-free remix, <a target="_blank" href="https://neurodiving.fm/Ep7_transcript.html">here</a>.</p><p>“Deliberative Empathy”</p><p>In our last episode, we met Ryan.</p><p>Ryan is a minister who has devoted his life to serving others. Yet, at one point, a psychologist told him he had “no empathy.”</p><p>Surprisingly, Ryan could sort of see their point. He knew he experienced empathy differently than most people. He was even a little skeptical of whether empathy deserves the pedestal we often put it on.</p><p>But hold on—even if empathy isn’t perfect, couldn’t it still be really important?</p><p>In this episode, we explore a broader, richer view of empathy. Maybe empathy isn’t a magic spark you either have or lack (which can be detected by a perfectly tuned psychometric test). Maybe empathy is more like a set of muscles we can exercise. According to this view, empathy is not merely a feeling, but a complex set of skills. These skills can look different from person to person, and can be learned, practiced, and strengthened over time.</p><p>To help us unpack all this, we spoke with the philosopher Heidi Maibom, who makes the case that empathy is far more than an emotional reflex. Instead, Heidi argues that empathy is a deliberate practice that plays a crucial role in living a moral life.</p><p>Topics Discussed</p><p>* Recap! (00:24)</p><p>* Why we care about (and try to measure) empathy: we often assume that having empathy is necessary for being a good person. (01:29) </p><p>* The original (and very dangerous) myth that autistic people don’t have empathy, and its relationship to the “ToM-deficit” view of autism. (01:52)</p><p>* A new myth: autistic have empathy and have a ToM deficit—which means that autistic people are like the mirror image of psychopaths. But this new myth comes with problems of its own. (03:06)</p><p>* There are so many different types of empathy! But are these long lists of different types of empathy useful? How are all these different types of empathy related? (06:32)</p><p>* An alternative way of thinking about empathy: it’s a four-step process (Fletcher-Watson and Bird, 2020) . The third step is the most important—and autistic people tend to be really good at that third step. (07:37)</p><p>* But wait—maybe we need to further complicate how we think about empathy. (12:16)</p><p>* Meet Heidi! (14:04)</p><p>* Heidi’s personal story illustrating the complexity of the empathy process. (14:56)</p><p>* Heidi’s view of empathy: it’s a set of skills that allows us to navigate interpersonal negotiations. (17:40)</p><p>* It’s totally possible that autistic people engage in this process differently—but that doesn’t entail any sort of “empathy deficit.” (18:17)</p><p>* We should think about empathy developmentally. (20:27)</p><p>* Recall: some people are pretty skeptical of empathy’s importance. (22:23)</p><p>* But in spite of these criticisms, Heidi maintains that empathy is really important. (24:33)</p><p>* Heidi suggests some ways to “do” empathy better. (26:56)</p><p>* Heidi thinks empathy is important for living a good, moral life, because morality isn’t just a simple set of rules. (28:49)</p><p>* Empathy is also helpful for reflecting on your own actions (hat-tip to Sartre). (32:02)</p><p>* Plus, empathy is useful for recognizing the full value of other people. (33:06) </p><p>* Heidi’s response to the criticism that empathy is biased. (33:52)</p><p>* The complexity of the empathy process opens up many different ways of “doing” empathy. (37:58)</p><p>* We can all deliberately practice flexing our empathy muscles. Could this help non-autistic people empathize with autistic people? (39:14)</p><p>Sources Mentioned</p><p>* For more on how a person’s “psychopathic” tendencies could be channeled into pro-social behavior: </p><p>* Ohikuare, “<a target="_blank" href="https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/life-as-a-nonviolent-psychopath/282271/">Life as a Nonviolent Psychopath,</a>” The Atlantic (2014).</p><p>* Gagne, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Memoir-Ph-D-Patric-Gagne/dp/166800318X">Sociopath: A Memoir</a><a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Memoir-Ph-D-Patric-Gagne/dp/166800318X"> </a>(2024).</p><p>* The new myth about autism, empathy, and psychopathy:</p><p>* Maguire, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11004474/">The relationship between psychopathy and autism: a systematic review and narrative synthesis</a>,” Frontiers in Psychiatry (2024).</p><p>* Heidi Maibom’s work on empathy:</p><p>* An overview: https://www.heidimaibom.com/empathy</p><p>* Heidi’s books: https://www.heidimaibom.com/books</p><p>* Heidi’s articles: https://www.heidimaibom.com/articles</p><p>* Fletcher-Watson and Bird, “<a target="_blank" href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361319883506">Autism and Empathy: What are the real links?</a>” Autism, Vol. 24, Issue 1 (2020).</p><p>* Examples of how DBT might boost empathy: </p><p>* Giles, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s40479-024-00269-w">A thematic analysis of the subjective experiences of mothers with borderline personality disorder who completed Mother-Infant Dialectical Behaviour Therapy: a 3-year follow-up</a>,” Borderline Personality Disorder and Emotion Regulation, Vol. 11, Article 25 (2024).</p><p>* Mardani, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://journals.kmanpub.com/index.php/jppr/article/view/2564">The Impact of Dialectical Behavior Therapy in Reducing Emotional Exhaustion and Enhancing Empathy</a>,” Journal of Personality and Psychosomatic Research, Vol. 1, No. 3 (2023).</p><p>* Research on DBT and autism: </p><p>* Keenan, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/aut.2022.0011">Leveling Up Dialectical Behavior Therapy for Autistic Individuals with Emotion Dysregulation: Clinical and Personal Insights</a>,” Autism in Adulthood, Vol. 6, No. 1 (2024).</p><p>* Bloom, <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Empathy">Against Empathy</a> (2016).</p><p>* Research on “thin slice” judgments, in which non-autistic people make negative snap judgments about autistic people:</p><p>* Sasson, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700">Neurotypical Peers are Less Willing to Interact with Those with Autism based on Thin Slice Judgments</a>,” Scientific Reports (2017).</p><p>* Research on autism and bullying:</p><p>* Trundle, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10486169/">Prevalence of Victimisation in Autistic Individuals: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis</a>,” Trauma, Violence, and Abuse, Vol. 24, Issue 4 (2023). </p><p>* Ryan Althaus:</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Emaciated-Emancipated-Story-Skinny-Mango-ebook/dp/B0CK577M9S?ie=UTF8">From Emaciated to Emancipated: The Story of a Skinny Mango</a> (2023).</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/s?i=digital-text&rh=p_27%3AAlthaus%252C%2BRyan%252C&s=relevancerank&text=Althaus%2C+Ryan%2C">Even more books by Ryan!</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-kooky-side-of-crazy/id1655468998">Ryan’s radio show</a>. </p><p>* More on how everyone needs to flex their empathy muscles: <a target="_blank" href="https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/how-to-really-know-another-person/">“How to Really Know Another Person” (</a><a target="_blank" href="https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/how-to-really-know-another-person/">Hidden Brain</a><a target="_blank" href="https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/how-to-really-know-another-person/">, 2022)</a></p><p>Credits</p><p>Hosting, Research, Fact-Checking, Script-Editing: Amelia Hicks and Joanna Lawson</p><p>Guests: Heidi Maibom and Ryan Althaus</p><p>Music and Audio Production: Amelia Hicks</p><p>Thank-Yous</p><p>A huge thank you to Heidi Maibom for helping us complicate our concept of empathy! Be sure to check out her books and articles, mentioned above.</p><p>Thanks again to Ryan Althaus, for all his insights.</p><p>And thanks to the Marc Sanders Foundation and the Templeton Foundation for their support of the show.</p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://neurodiving.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1">neurodiving.substack.com</a>
August 4, 2025
Episode 6: "I choose to live life deliberately"
<p>We’re back! And this time, we’re turning our attention to another ambiguous concept that has long shaped public (mis)understandings of autism: empathy.</p><p>As always, you can find a (not Substack-generated) transcript of the episode, as well as a music-free remix, <a target="_blank" href="http://file:///home/amelia/Sync/NeuroDiving/Website/Ep6_transcript.html">here</a>.</p><p>“I choose to live life deliberately”</p><p>Maybe you’ve heard the claim that autistic people “lack empathy.” </p><p>Or maybe you’ve heard the opposite: that, in fact, autistic people are hyper-empathetic.</p><p>Maybe you’ve even heard that autistic people are so hyper-empathetic that they have <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Telepathy_Tapes">paranormal telepathic abilities</a>. Yikes!</p><p>But what if, instead of making sweeping generalizations, we learned about the nuances of one person’s experiences with empathy? </p><p>When Joanna and I first started working on NeuroDiving, we did what any super-serious podcasters would do: we made a website. Not even a week after it went live, I received a friendly email from a minister in Santa Cruz, CA named Ryan Althaus. Diagnosed with autism as an adult, Ryan was eager to dive into the philosophical dimensions of his diagnosis. I Googled him, and in that Googling, I found a sermon in which he mentioned scoring a “0” on an empathy test while still in seminary. I had to know more.</p><p>Turns out, Ryan had a whole host of insights into the nature of empathy. In our conversation with Ryan—NeuroDiving’s first-ever interview!—he talked us through his experiences taking psychometric tests, reflected on how empathy shows up in his own life, and offered thoughtful critiques of over-reliance on empathy.</p><p>So, in this episode, meet Ryan. I doubt you’ll think about empathy in quite the same way again.</p><p>Topics Discussed</p><p>* Meet Ryan! (00:20)</p><p>* Surprisingly, a psych test labeled Ryan as having “no empathy” (01:48).</p><p>* Ryan’s background (05:21).</p><p>* How Ryan was diagnosed with autism after experience eating disorder relapse (06:07).</p><p>* Ryan’s autism diagnosis helped make sense of those earlier psych test results (the ones claiming he had “no empathy”). We explore the psych tests used in seminaries. (09:30).</p><p>* Those psych tests also said that Ryan “likes to break rules for fun” (11:53).</p><p>* The church polity exam illustrates Ryan’s relationship with rules (12:56).</p><p>* Autistic people tend to get low scores on tests that claim to measure empathy—but those tests have limitations (15:23).</p><p>* How Ryan experiences cognitive empathy (AKA theory of mind) (20:58). </p><p>* Ryan’s experiences with emotional contagion (22:08).</p><p>* Ryan’s experience with “abstract empathy” (23:45).</p><p>* Connection to alexithymia (24:34).</p><p>* Ryan’s experiments in living—how Ryan has worked to understand other people’s experiences and emotions (25:46).</p><p>* Ryan’s three critiques of empathy (28:06).</p><p>Sources Mentioned</p><p>* Ryan Althaus, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Emaciated-Emancipated-Story-Skinny-Mango-ebook/dp/B0CK577M9S?ie=UTF8">From Emaciated to Emancipated: The Story of a Skinny Mango</a> (2023).</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/s?i=digital-text&rh=p_27%3AAlthaus%252C%2BRyan%252C&s=relevancerank&text=Althaus%2C+Ryan%2C">Even more books by Ryan!</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-kooky-side-of-crazy/id1655468998">Ryan’s radio show</a>. </p><p>* Floyd and Gupta, “<a target="_blank" href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557525/">Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory,</a>” StatPearls (2023).</p><p>* The <a target="_blank" href="https://arc.psych.wisc.edu/self-report/psychopathic-deviate-scale-pd/">“unofficial” list</a> of questions used to place people on the psychopathic deviate scale.</p><p>* Some examples of the “standard view” on autism and empathy:</p><p>* Langwerden, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9597642/">An Exploratory Study of MMPI-2-RF Personality and Psychopathology Profiles of Adults with Autism Spectrum Disorder without Intellectual Disability</a>,” Clinical Neuropsychiatry, Vol. 19 Issue 5 (2022).</p><p>* Shah, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10803-019-04080-3">Trait Autism is a Better Predictor of Empathy than Alexithymia</a>,” Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders (2019).</p><p>* Sindermann, et al., “<a target="_blank" href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6522547/">Empathy, Autistic Tendencies, and Systematizing Tendencies: Relationships Between Standard Self-Report Measures,</a>” Frontiers in Psychiatry (2019).</p><p>* An autistic researcher’s take on autism and empathy:</p><p>* Silvertant, “<a target="_blank" href="https://embrace-autism.com/autistics-have-lower-empathy/">Autistics have lower empathy?</a>” (2021).</p><p>Credits</p><p>Hosting, Research, Fact-Checking, Script-Editing: Amelia Hicks and Joanna Lawson</p><p>Guest: Ryan Althaus</p><p>Music and Audio Production: Amelia Hicks</p><p>Thank-Yous</p><p>Thank you to Ryan for sharing his experiences and insights with us! Be sure to check out Ryan’s writing (listed above). And if you’re in Santa Cruz, you can join him on a <a target="_blank" href="https://www.facebook.com/santacruzsheep">sailing adventure</a>! </p><p>And thanks to the Marc Sanders Foundation and the Templeton Foundation for their support of the show.</p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://neurodiving.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1">neurodiving.substack.com</a>
December 11, 2023
Episode 5: "New Paradigms, New Values"
<p>We’re rounding off our little mini-series on “theory of mind” in autism research with episode 5: “New Paradigms, New Values.”</p><p>You can find a (not Substack-generated) transcript of the episode, as well as a music-free remix, <a target="_blank" href="https://neurodiving.fm/Ep5_transcript.html">here</a>.</p><p>We will be on hiatus over the holidays, while we cook up some more episodes about the relationship between <em>empathy</em> and autism. But in the meantime, I’ll continue to post here occasionally to let you all know about other fascinating audio projects that tackle issues related to autism and disability.</p><p>“New Paradigms, New Values”</p><p>In the last several episodes, we’ve explored the bizarre history of autism research focusing on “theory of mind deficits.” So at this point, you’re probably wondering: “where do we go from here?”</p><p>We don’t have all the answers, but in this episode, Travis and Joe—from the previous episode—describe some fascinating new avenues for autism research, which promise to help us understand autistic perspectival differences <em>without</em> invoking so-called “theory of mind deficits.” Plus, Travis compares the two most common paradigms in autism research (the “pathology paradigm,” and the “neurodiversity paradigm”), and offers some advice for folks who want to start reading up on the philosophy of autism.</p><p>Topics Discussed</p><p>* A potential problem with our critique of “theory of mind deficit” research: some autistic people find the theory of mind deficit view of autism <em>helpful</em> for making sense of challenging experiences. (00:29)</p><p>* A reminder about the problems associated with the “theory of mind deficit” view of autism; in particular, the view dehumanizes autistic people. (02:41)</p><p>* Problems with Barnbaum’s influential book <em>The Ethics of Autism</em> (2008), which assumes the theory of mind deficit view of autism. (04:05)</p><p>* But again, some autistic people find the “theory of mind deficit” view of autism <em>helpful</em>. (05:54)</p><p>* So, we need good alternatives for understanding and talking about autistic social differences. (07:41)</p><p>* The bad news: there’s no single unifying “theory of autism” that can simply <em>replace</em> the “theory of mind deficit” view. (08:25)</p><p>* The good news: there are <em>several</em> alternative research programs that promise to help us better understand autistic people’s experiences with perspective-taking. (09:07)</p><p>* A sociological alternative: <em>the double empathy problem</em>. (10:16)</p><p>* A psychological alternative: <em>monotropism</em>. (12:20)</p><p>* Monotropism isn’t just “an autistic thing.” (15:41)</p><p>* Why the double empathy problem and monotropism could both be true (they’re not in competition with each other). (17:06)</p><p>* A physiological alternative: differences in <em>interoception</em>. (19:04) </p><p>* What all of these alternative theories have in common: they don’t have to frame autism in terms of deficits. This focus reflects a shift in value assumptions in autism research. (21:13)</p><p>* Science can’t avoid making some value-laden assumptions. Feminist philosophers of science have been talking about this issue for decades. (22:12)</p><p>* An example of a value assumption in science and medicine: “classic” heart attack symptoms. (25:02)</p><p>* Travis contrasts the “pathology paradigm” in autism research with the “neurodiversity paradigm” in autism research. (25:51)</p><p>* Travis gives an example of how the pathology paradigm can distort autism researchers’ interpretation of data. (29:12)</p><p>* We shouldn’t merely “study autistic differences”; we need to study autistic differences <em>with the ultimate goal of improving autistic people’s well-being</em>, all while paying close attention to what autistic people say they need. (With a quick call-back to Chloe Farahar.) (33:07)</p><p>* Travis explains how philosophy can contribute to autism research. (36:21)</p><p>* But philosophers need to be careful! Travis has advice. (37:50)</p><p>* Look-ahead to our next topic: empathy and autism. (40:26)</p><p>Sources Mentioned</p><p>* Barnbaum, <em>The Ethics of Autism</em> (2008).</p><p>* Milton, “On the ontological status of autism: the ‘double empathy problem’,” <em>Disability and Society</em>, Volume 27, Issue 6 (2012). <a target="_blank" href="https://kar.kent.ac.uk/62639/1/Double%20empathy%20problem.pdf">https://kar.kent.ac.uk/62639/1/Double%20empathy%20problem.pdf</a></p><p>* More recent research supporting the “double empathy problem” hypothesis includes:</p><p>* Morrison, et al., “Outcomes of real-world social interaction for autistic adults paired with autistic compared to typically developing partners,” <em>Autism</em>, Volume 24, Issue 5 (2020). <a target="_blank" href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31823656/">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31823656/</a></p><p>* Sheppard, et al., “Mindreading beliefs in same- and cross-neurotype interactions,” <em>Autism </em>(2023). <a target="_blank" href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13623613231211457">https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13623613231211457</a></p><p>* Milton, et al., “The ‘double empathy problem’: Ten years on,” <em>Autism</em>, Volume 26, Issue 8 (2022). <a target="_blank" href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13623613221129123">https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13623613221129123</a></p><p>* Crompton, et al., “Autistic peer-to-peer information transfer is highly effective,” <em>Autism</em>, Volume 24, Issue 7 (2020). <a target="_blank" href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7545656/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7545656/</a></p><p>* Murray, et al., “Attention, monotropism and the diagnostic criteria for autism,” <em>Autism</em>, Volume 9, Issue 2 (2005). <a target="_blank" href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1362361305051398">https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1362361305051398</a></p><p>* Dwyer, “Revisiting Monotropism” (blog post from 2021): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.autisticscholar.com/monotropism/">https://www.autisticscholar.com/monotropism/</a></p><p>* Joe mentions that autistic people might tend to have heightened sympathetic bodily reactions to others’ emotions, but also have more trouble <em>processing</em> those sympathetic bodily reactions (probably because of <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia">alexithymia</a>). There is a <em>bunch</em> of research on empathic arousal, alexithymia, and interoception, but as a start:</p><p>* Fletcher-Watson and Bird, “Autism and empathy: What are the real links?” <em>Autism</em>, Volume 24, Issue 1 (2020). <a target="_blank" href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361319883506">https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361319883506</a></p><p>* Kimber, et al., “Autistic People's Experience of Empathy and the Autistic Empathy Deficit Narrative,” <em>Autism in Adulthood</em> (2023). <a target="_blank" href="https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/aut.2023.0001?download=true&journalCode=aut">https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/aut.2023.0001?download=true&journalCode=aut</a></p><p>* Fan, et al., “Empathic arousal and social understanding in individuals with autism: evidence from fMRI and ERP measurements” <em>Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience</em>, Volume 9, Issue 8 (2014). <a target="_blank" href="https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/9/8/1203/2375393">https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/9/8/1203/2375393</a></p><p>* Butera, et al., “Relationships between alexithymia, interoception, and emotional empathy in autism spectrum disorder,” <em>Autism, </em>Volume 27, Issue 3 (2023). <a target="_blank" href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35833505/">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35833505/</a></p><p>* Garfinkel, et al., “Discrepancies between dimensions of interoception in autism: Implications for emotion and anxiety,” <em>Biological Psychology</em>, 114 (2016).</p><p>* For more on the feminist critique of the “value-free ideal of science,” see Crasnow, "Feminist Perspectives on Science," <em>The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy </em>(Fall 2023 Edition), Edward N. Zalta & Uri Nodelman (eds.). <a target="_blank" href="https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminist-science/">https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminist-science/</a></p><p>* For more on “male norms” in medicine, see: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-11-2019-1.5049277/there-s-a-gender-gap-in-medical-data-and-it-s-costing-women-their-lives-says-this-author-1.5049286">https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-11-2019-1.5049277/there-s-a-gender-gap-in-medical-data-and-it-s-costing-women-their-lives-says-this-author-1.5049286</a></p><p>* Nick Walker, <em>Neuroqueer Heresies</em> (2021). <a target="_blank" href="https://neuroqueer.com/neuroqueer-heresies/">https://neuroqueer.com/neuroqueer-heresies/</a></p><p>* The paper in which researchers rely on the “pathology paradigm” when interpreting their results: Hu, et al., “Right Temporoparietal Junction Underlies Avoidance of Moral Transgression in Autism Spectrum Disorder,” <em>Journal of Neuroscience</em>, Volume 41, Issue 8 (2021). <a target="_blank" href="https://www.jneurosci.org/content/41/8/1699">https://www.jneurosci.org/content/41/8/1699</a></p><p>* Travis’s reading recommendations (to get started with the philosophy of autism):</p><p>* <strong>Monique Botha</strong> (I love their paper, “Academic, Activist, or Advocate?” in <em>Frontiers in Psychology</em> (2021) <a target="_blank" href="https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.727542/full">https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.727542/full</a>)</p><p>* <strong>Damian Milton</strong> (see his two “double empathy” problem paper, listed above)</p><p>* <strong>Ian Hacking</strong></p><p>* “Making People Up,” <em>London Review of Books</em>, Volume 28, Issue 16 (2006). <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v28/n16/ian-hacking/making-up-people">https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v28/n16/ian-hacking/making-up-people</a></p><p>* “Kinds of People: Moving Targets,” <em>Proceedings of the British Academy</em>, Volume 151 (2007). <a target="_blank" href="https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/documents/2043/pba151p285.pdf">https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/documents/2043/pba151p285.pdf</a></p><p>* “Autistic autobiography,” Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, Volume 364, Issue 1522 (2009). <a target="_blank" href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.2008.0329">https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.2008.0329</a></p><p>* <strong>Robert Chapman</strong></p><p>* They have a new book out, titled <em>Empire of Normality</em> (2023)! <a target="_blank" href="https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745348667/empire-of-normality/">https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745348667/empire-of-normality/</a></p><p>* “The Reality of Autism: on the metaphysics of disorder and diversity,”</p><p>Philosophical Psychology, Volume 66, Issue 6 (2020). <a target="_blank" href="https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/241133636/Reality_of_autism_final_edit.pdf">https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/241133636/Reality_of_autism_final_edit.pdf</a></p><p>Credits</p><p>Hosting, Research, Fact-Checking, Script-Editing: Amelia Hicks and Joanna Lawson</p><p>Guests: Travis LaCroix and Joe Gough</p><p>Music and Audio Production: Amelia Hicks</p><p>Thank-Yous</p><p>Many thanks to Travis LaCroix and Joe Gough for speaking with us—again!—about new avenues in autism research, and about the roles of values in autism science.</p><p>I also want to offer special thanks to the philosopher Barry Lam (of <a target="_blank" href="https://hiphination.org/">Hi-Phi Nation</a>) for his mentorship. Barry organized a fantastic <a target="_blank" href="https://marcsandersfoundation.org/2022-media-fellows/">workshop</a> for philosophers interested in podcasting—which is how Joanna and I met each other. And thanks, too, to <a target="_blank" href="https://www.josephfridman.com/">Joseph Fridman</a>, who has also provided incredible ongoing mentorship while Joanna and I put this project together. </p><p>Speaking of Joanna—I want to highlight just <em>how much support</em> she has offered me over the past couple years. Joanna is an amazing editor, explainer, and provider of moral support, and she has made <em>NeuroDiving</em> so much better. Thank you Joanna! <3</p><p>And thanks to the Marc Sanders Foundation and the Templeton Foundation for their support of the show.</p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://neurodiving.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1">neurodiving.substack.com</a>
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