Never the Same

About Never the Same

"Never the Same" is an interview-based podcast exploring how different work streams intersect with suicide prevention, career development, and life lessons. The title draws inspiration from Heraclitus' quote, "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man," reflecting the ever-changing nature of life and personal growth. Each episode features conversations with guests from various fields, highlighting defining moments and shifts in thinking. The podcast aims to uncover new insights for suicide prevention while offering broader perspectives on personal and professional growth.

Publisher

Dr. Tony Pisani

Category

education · science

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

27 Nov 2024

Latest episode

25 Jun 2026

Latest episodes

16 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   25 Jun 2026

   Fairness for People with Mental Illness in Criminal Justice with Dr. Daniel Murrie

   In this episode of Never the Same, Dr. Tony Pisani sits down with Daniel Murrie, a professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia and director of the Institute for Law, Psychiatry and Public Policy. Daniel is one of the most cited researchers in forensic psychology, best known for a landmark study that challenged a foundational assumption in his field: that experts retained by opposing legal sides can remain objective. However, the answer is more complicated. They explore what forensic psychology actually is, what it’s like to sit across from someone facing the death penalty, why the US is in the middle of a “competency crisis,” and how a field changes its mind. Guest Bio: Daniel Murrie is a professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia, where he directs the Institute for Law, Psychiatry and Public Policy. He is a leading researcher in forensic psychology, with extensive work on evaluator bias, competency assessment, capital cases, and the intersection of mental illness and the justice system. He has served as a court-appointed special master in Colorado, helping the state address its competency crisis. Referenced Resources: Competency to stand trial — the 1960 Supreme Court case Dusky v. United States (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/362/402/) Competency to stand trial evaluations: A state-wide review of court-ordered reports (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32012335/) Not guilty by reason of insanity (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/not_guilty_by_reason_of_insanity) Are forensic experts biased by the side that retained them? (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23969777/) Evaluations of competence to stand trial are evolving amid a national "competency crisis." (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37056195/) Bird by Bird by Anne Lamont  (https://www.amazon.com.au/Bird-Instructions-Writing-Life/dp/0385480016)

2. 

   5 Mar 2026

   What Jazz, Social Work, and AI Have in Common with Dr. Jonathan Singer

   In this episode of Never the Same, Dr. Tony Pisani sits down with Jonathan Singer, a social work professor at Loyola University, co-author of Suicide in Schools, and past president of the American Association of Suicidology. Jonathan is also the creator of The Social Work Podcast (https://socialworkpodcast.blogspot.com/), which he started in 2007 while teaching as a doctoral student. He thought “25 people would listen,” but by the end of the semester, there had been over 3000 downloads, from 80 countries. They explore how jazz improvisation shaped Jonathan’s approach to therapy and collaboration, why schools with fewer suicides pay attention to “weak signals,” and what postvention can look like after a student suicide death. Guest Bio Jonathan Singer is a social work professor at Loyola University and the co-author of Suicide in Schools. He is the past president of the American Association of Suicidology. Jonathan is also the host and creator of the Social Work Podcast. Referenced Resources The Social Work Podcast (https://socialworkpodcast.blogspot.com/) Suicide in Schools: A Practitioner's Guide to Multi-level Prevention, Assessment, Intervention, and Postvention   (https://www.amazon.com.au/Suicide-Schools-Practitioners-Multi-level-Intervention/dp/0367141701) Suicide Contagion Explainer  (https://headspace.org.au/assets/School-Support/Suicide-contagion-web.pdf) Universal Suicide Risk Screening in Schools: Outcomes from 9 Years of Implementation (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12310-025-09803-9) Life Under Pressure: The Social Roots of Youth Suicide (https://www.amazon.com.au/Life-under-Pressure-Social-Suicide/dp/0190847840) Cook County real-time suicide data dashboard (https://maps.cookcountyil.gov/medexammaps/?page=Case-Archive-Dashboard) Johns Hopkins COVID dashboard (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data)

3. 

   13 Jan 2026

   Serving Those Who Serve: First Responder Chaplain Steve Wickham

   In this moving conversation, Dr Tony Pisani speaks with Steve Wickham, a workplace health and safety professional, chaplain, and writer. Steve shares his remarkable journey from his early days as a tradesman in Western Australia, through personal trials of grief, loss, and recovery, to his current roles supporting first responders and families. With honesty and warmth, Steve opens up about the people who shaped his path, the importance of kinship and purpose, and the lessons he has learned from decades of walking alongside others in crisis. His reflections highlight the power of presence, humility, and hope in the face of life’s deepest challenges. Guest Bio: Steve Wickham is a chaplain, pastor, and writer based in Western Australia. He began his career as a tradesman before moving into health and safety in 1997, working for decades as a safety professional. Today, he serves as a part-time chaplain with the Department of Fire and Emergency Services and Children and Families Pastor at a Baptist church. Referenced Resources: The Entitlement Cure — Dr John Townsend (https://www.amazon.com.au/Entitlement-Cure-Finding-Success-Things/dp/0310330521) Heartfelt (Australia) — photography and support for families experiencing stillbirth and infant loss (https://www.heartfelt.org.au/who-we-are/who-is-heartfelt#:~:text=Heartfelt%20is%20a%20volunteer%20organisation,serious%20or%20life%20threatening%20illness.) EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) (https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments/eye-movement-reprocessing) Department of Fire and Emergency Services (WA) — wellness and chaplaincy support (https://www.dfes.wa.gov.au/about-us/family-support) Production credits: Hannah Corcoran, Producer and Senior Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/h-corcoran/ Annie Lewis, Content Manager https://www.linkedin.com/in/annie-lewis-304854117/ Luke Pisani, Music https://www.instagram.com/lukepisani_/ (c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.

4. 

   24 Nov 2025

   The Network Effect: Turning Protection into Connection

   Professor Tony Pisani delivers a keynote address and examines how the structure of relationships protects people from suicide risk, especially when individuals cannot speak up, in this episode.

5. 

   15 Sept 2025

   Leadership Reflections—Western Australia Chief Psychiatrist Nathan Gibson, Mental Health Commissioner Maureen Lewis

   Host Dr. Tony Pisani interviews Mental Health Commissioner Maureen Lewis and Chief Psychiatrist Dr. Nathan Gibson about strategic leadership and crisis decision-making within Western Australia's mental health system.

6. 

   11 Aug 2025

   Prof. Pat Dudgeon's Groundbreaking Life and Work on Social Emotional Wellbeing

   Host Dr. Tony Pisani interviews Professor Pat Dudgeon, Australia's first Aboriginal psychologist, about her pioneering work in decolonizing psychology and establishing the Social and Emotional Wellbeing framework for Indigenous healing.

7. 

   14 Jul 2025

   A Global Vision for Crisis Support: Alan Woodward's Hope for the Future

   Alan Woodward, a global crisis support leader, shares his experiences with Dr. Tony Pisani, discussing facing difficult moments and the importance of kindness in crisis services, in this interview.

8. 

   17 Jun 2025

   What about the Children? Five Values for Multiracial Families with Nicole Doyley

   Author Nicole Doyley discusses her experiences growing up in a biracial family and shares parenting values for multiracial families with host Dr. Tony Pisani in an interview about race, identity, and belonging.

9. 

   18 May 2025

   Leading with Purpose: CEO Nieves Murray on Change, Compassion, and Community

   In this episode, Nieves Murray, CEO of Suicide Prevention Australia, joins Dr. Tony Pisani for an insightful conversation about leadership, equity, and personal transformation. From her early career in engineering to leading national suicide prevention strategy, Nieves brings a rich mix of personal stories, professional insights, and hard-earned wisdom. Key Themes The power of bilingual and bicultural identity Leadership lessons from aged care, finance, and suicide prevention Changing minds: how experience reshapes perspective Balancing data with lived experience in policy work Grief, care, and learning from family Nieves Murray: Nieves Murray is the CEO of Suicide Prevention Australia and has spent over 35 years in leadership roles across aged care, finance, and human services. Recognised as one of Australia’s 100 Most Influential Women, she is a champion of systems thinking, community voice, and inclusive policy. Dr. Tony Pisani: Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities. Resources and References National Policy Platform by Suicide Prevention Australia Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make The Leap and Others Don't by Jim Collins

10. 

    14 Apr 2025

    Structured Support in Suicide Prevention with Jacinta Hawgood

    Welcome to the Never the Same Podcast! Today, we dive into the science of suicide prevention with Jacinta Hawgood, a clinical psychologist, senior lecturer, and researcher at Griffith University. Host Tony Pisani is joined by Jacinta, a leader in the field with nearly 25 years of experience, to discuss how structured approaches like the STARS Protocol are reshaping conversations about suicide. Together, they explore: How STARS (Systematic Tailored Assessment for Responding to Suicidality) bridges structured tools and personal stories. Why protective factors and client-driven care are essential for meaningful interventions. How suicide prevention is evolving, with new roles for non-clinical professionals and lived experience leaders. The biggest misconceptions about suicide, including fears around asking direct questions. Jacinta also reflects on her career, how her thinking has changed over time, and why listening deeply is at the heart of effective care. Don't forget to like & subscribe so you never miss an episode! Together, we’re exploring the stories and strategies that can make a difference. (c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.

11. 

    18 Mar 2025

    When Young People Need Support: Conversations That Matter with Dr. Melissa Dundas

    In this episode, Dr. Tony Pisani, Kristina Mossgraber, and Dr. Melissa Dundas discuss the critical role primary care providers play in youth suicide prevention. They share personal insights, professional experiences, and practical strategies to support young people beyond just referrals to mental health services. They cover how to build trust with youth, recognize warning signs, and create a culture of safety within healthcare settings and communities. Whether you're a clinician, educator, parent, or caregiver, this conversation offers valuable takeaways for fostering connection and providing effective support. Note: This episode was originally released in 2023 through a collaboration with Aetna as “Practical Advice About Youth Suicide Prevention in Primary Care”. We loved this chat with Dr Dundas so much we wanted to share it again with our Never the Same Audience. Guests: Kristina Mossgraber is a suicide prevention advocate with lived experience and part of SafeSide’s faculty, dedicated to improving support systems for those struggling with mental health. Dr. Melissa Dundas is a pediatrician and adolescent medicine specialist passionate about integrating mental health support into primary care. Host: Dr. Tony Pisani is a clinical psychologist and educational media lead at SafeSide Prevention. Mentioned Resources: Evidence-based suicide-specific treatments (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532315/). Safety planning intervention. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1077722911000630?via%3Dihub) Improving cultural competence (https://store.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/d7/priv/sma16-4931.pdf) Reformulating Suicide Risk Formulation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4937078/), foreseeable changes. If you or someone you know needs support: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (US) (https://988lifeline.org/): 988 Lifeline (Australia) (https://toolkit.lifeline.org.au/) - 1800 551 800 Lifeline (New Zealand) (https://www.lifeline.org.nz/) - Phone: 0800 543 354 or Text 4357 Production Credits: Hannah Mang, Senior Video Editor and Producer (https://www.linkedin.com/in/h-mang/) Annie Lewis, Content and Communications Manager (https://www.linkedin.com/in/annie-lewis-304854117/) Luke Pisani, Music (https://www.instagram.com/lukepisani_/) (c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.

12. 

    18 Feb 2025

    When Your Work Finds You: Dr. Arielle Sheftall on Child Suicide Prevention and Career Purpose

    Dr. Tony Pisani interviews Dr. Arielle Sheftall, a leading researcher in youth suicide prevention, about the crucial issue of suicide among children and pre-teens. Dr. Sheftall shares insights from her work on understanding and preventing suicide in young people, particularly addressing the rising rates among Black youth. This conversation covers the importance of direct communication about suicide with young people, the role of cultural understanding in prevention, and how to build protective factors for at-risk youth. Key moments include discussions about: Breaking stigma around youth mental health How to talk with children about suicide The impact of family and community support Cultural considerations in suicide prevention Resources for families and professionals If you or someone you know needs support: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (US) (https://988lifeline.org/): 988 Lifeline (Australia) (https://toolkit.lifeline.org.au/) - 1800 551 800 Lifeline (New Zealand) (https://www.lifeline.org.nz/) - Phone: 0800 543 354 or Text 4357 Production Credits: Hannah Mang, Senior Video Editor and Producer Annie Lewis, Content and Communications Manager Luke Pisani, Music (c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.

13. 

    14 Jan 2025

    AI Scientists and the Humans Who Love Them with Dr. Ian Cero

    Welcome to the Never The Same Podcast! Today we explore whether AI can fundamentally transform the way we conduct scientific research, especially in the context of suicide prevention. Tony is joined by Dr. Ian Cero, a faculty member at the University of Rochester and expert in clinical psychology, statistics, and... debating! (Yes, he was a Minnesota state debate champion). Together, they tackle the question: can AI become a scientist in its own right? They dive into: How AI is being used today to generate research ideas and conduct experiments. Whether AI can truly be creative or if it just mimics patterns. The implications for human researchers—especially those just beginning their careers. How we can use AI without losing the essence of human creativity and scientific curiosity. Ian shares his personal journey—from skepticism to relying on AI as an essential research partner. He explains how his own experience with AI helped him correct misunderstandings and even saved one of his projects from failure. If you’re a researcher, someone interested in mental health, or just curious about where AI is taking us next, this episode is a must-listen. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell icon so you never miss an episode! We're here to keep exploring the frontiers of science and prevention. (c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.

14. 

    10 Dec 2024

    Here with You: Supporting People with Substance Use and Suicide Concerns

    This episode of Never the Same delves into addressing suicide concerns among loved ones who use substances. Featuring lived experience insights from Jack Stem and his daughter Kim, alongside Dr. Ken Connor (University of Rochester) and Morica Hutchinson (University of Connecticut), the conversation combines lived experiences and professional insights. The episode coincides with the release of a no-cost online training resource developed by SafeSide Prevention in collaboration with the UR Medicine Recovery Center of Excellence on SUD Prevention (https://recoverycenterofexcellence.org/) to support those standing together with someone grappling with substance use and suicide challenges. Explore the resource here (https://safesideprevention.com/withyou). Key topics include: How to start difficult conversations about suicide and substance use Ways to ask about suicide directly and sensitively How to respond effectively when someone shares their concerns. In this episode, the participants share personal experiences and professional insights, creating a balanced discussion that addresses both the practical and emotional aspects of supporting someone at risk of suicide who also struggles with substance use. Guests: • Jack Stem: A seasoned counselor and recovery advocate with decades of experience navigating addiction and peer support. • Kim Stem: A passionate speaker on addiction and mental health, sharing her lived experiences to foster understanding and hope. • Dr. Kenneth Conner: Professor in Emergency Medicine and Psychiatry at the University of Rochester, specializing in suicide prevention and substance use research. • Morica Hutchison: the Faculty in Public Health Sciences at the University of Connecticut, focusing on family and community-based approaches to substance use and mental health. Host: Dr. Tony Pisani: Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities. Referenced Resources (Timestamped): Online Family and Friend Training Module (01:30): Developed with the University of Rochester Recovery Center of Excellence. Access here (https://safesideprevention.com/withyou). Three Steps to Ask About Suicide (https://safesideprevention.com/ip-media/Three-Steps-to-Ask-About-Suicide.pdf) (10:18): A guide for friends and family. 988 Crisis Line (01:03:00): National resource for immediate support. Learn more here (https://988.ca/). Hope Kit (01:03:30): Mentioned as a resource for stabilization. Learn more here (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK572982/box/p1.b34/?report=objectonly). Resources to contact if you need crisis help SafeSide does not provide crisis intervention. These crisis resources are there for you: United States 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (https://chat.988lifeline.org/) Australia LifeLine Australia (https://www.lifeline.org.au/) Canada Crisis Services Canada (https://www.crisisservicescanada.ca/en/) New Zealand LifeLine (https://www.lifeline.org.nz/) (c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.

15. 

    3 Dec 2024

    The Psychology of Life and Suicide Prevention with Dr. David Jobes

    View on YouTube: https://youtu.be/PXDtfKsFznI The shift from traditional risk assessment to collaborative, person-centered care is reshaping suicide prevention. In this inaugural episode of Never the Same, Professor Tony Pisani sits down with Dr. David Jobes, creator of the Collaborative Assessment and Management of Suicidality (CAMS), to discuss this transformative approach. Dr. Jobes shares insights from decades of work with patients and offers a glimpse into the life-changing potential of CAMS: "You can find a way through an incredibly dark moment and look back, saying, ‘Oh my god, I almost ended my life.’” Learn how this groundbreaking framework puts patients at the center of their care, fosters hope, and transforms lives. Guest: Dr. David Jobes Dr. David A. Jobes is a renowned clinical psychologist and suicidologist with over 30 years of experience. As a professor at Catholic University, he directs the Suicide Prevention Lab and has authored six books and 100+ peer-reviewed publications. Dr. Jobes is the creator of CAMS, a framework that has revolutionized care for individuals with suicidal thoughts. Host: Dr. Tony Pisani Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities. Links: • CAMS training for mental health professionals (https://safesideprevention.com/program/cams-treatment) • Meta-analysis Paper on CAMS (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/sltb.12765) • Jobes Lab on X.com (https://x.com/lab_jobes)• Dr. Jobes’ Bio at Catholic University (https://psychology.catholic.edu/faculty-and-research/faculty-profiles/jobes-david/index.html) • Recommended Standard Care  (https://theactionalliance.org/resource/recommended-standard-care)

16. 

    27 Nov 2024

    Trailer - Never the Same Podcast

    Welcome to “Never the Same,” where we explore how influential people and ideas have evolved over time and where they might go in the future. Reflecting the ever-changing nature of life and personal growth. Each episode features conversations with guests from various fields, highlighting defining moments and shifts in thinking. The podcast aims to uncover new insights for suicide prevention while offering broader perspectives on personal and professional growth.

Who has been a guest on Never the Same

Names identified in recent episode analyses. Showing up to five guests.

• Tony Pisani
• Maureen Lewis
• Dr Nathan Gibson
• Prof Pat Dudgeon
• Alan Woodward

Reach and audience

Public platform figures. Ratings count people who left a rating, not total listeners.

Apple Podcasts (US)

5.0 / 5

4 ratings

Podcast Authority Score: 19 / 100

A composite of feed quality, social presence, YouTube performance and engagement. Read the methodology.

Quality

24

Social presence

0

YouTube

0

Engagement

32

Contact Never the Same

Guest appearances

Books guests

Based on episode analysis; this does not confirm that the show is currently accepting guests.