Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time

About Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time

Noticing is a series of intimate conversations between long time friends Becky DeCicco and Christina Watka. Born out of consecutive months of deep conversation through voice memos during their paralleled years of awakening, Noticing explores the myriad of ways we can all acknowledge the mystery and live more fully in presence. DeCicco draws from her experience as a mindfulness teacher and lifelong lover of everything cosmic, spiritual, and religious while Watka comes from a background steeped heavily in the arts and a mind-body-spirit connection that naturally orients towards light. Through these conversations, they aspire to remind every person that our differences are what help us find a home in self, and only once we embody this authenticity can we seed the world we want to inhabit. noticingpod.substack.com (https://noticingpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast)

Publisher

Christina Watka & Becky DeCicco

Category

arts · religion & spirituality

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

18 Sept 2025

Latest episode

2 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

25 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   2 Oct 2026

   The Edge

   This week, we join our friend Jenny O’Connell in conversation again. Having just completed her adventure memoir, Wildheart, Jenny shares that come June 1, 2027, her life will reach a new imbalance—people will know her more intimately than she knows them. She discusses the ways she’s been preparing to be visible. “It isn’t about me it’s actually about something much bigger than me and I’m just the vessel,” she says. As a beacon of true vulnerability, Jenny repeatedly reorients towards authenticity, asking herself how can I be more honest how can I be more true? She recognizes that she is in the business of heart work, working through every facet of her life to reconnect people to themselves and then to the issues that we are all facing on this planet. In this conversation, you’ll hear all about living at the edge. It’s not comfortable, but it is filled with possibility. Links and Resources * Preorder Jenny’s memoir (https://sites.prh.com/wildheart) * Listen to Jenny’s first visit to Noticing and hear more about her journey: Bless the Foolish Ideas (https://open.substack.com/pub/noticingpod/p/bless-the-foolish-ideas?r=1mku6m&utm_medium=ios) * Read Jenny’s Substack essay “The Art of Being Seen” (https://substack.com/@jennyoc/note/p-217665525?r=1mku6m&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action) * If you like this conversation, we think you will also enjoy this episode of Wild Card with Terry Tempest Williams (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wild-card-with-rachel-martin/id1742968315?i=1000776013192) Episode Transcript Christina: You know, I’m on my dog walk right now thinking about something I read yesterday about Carl Jung and how he talked all about the myriad of ways we can make the unconscious conscious, and how sometimes that is like a harmful relationship that we’re in or a difficult conversation that helps, um, mirror something unconscious in us so that we can face it and make it conscious. And then I was thinking of all the ways that, like, I see that happening in my friends’ lives right now. Um, and then I was also thinking like, huh, that’s like exactly what’s been happening to me with all of this, um, heightened mysticism and, um, really acute awakened spirituality. It’s like all of these things in my life were this pattern, this illuminated pattern that was quite wonderful and mysterious. And then as soon as I made it conscious, which involved me just like blurting out the series of mystical experiences and then sobbing as I acknowledged all of them, then they become conscious. And when they become conscious, they’re even more potent and the world feels happier that I’m conscious of them. Isn’t that great? Becky: Welcome to Noticing, a podcast about nothing and everything at the same time. This week we are back in conversation wilderness guide, author, and dear friend Jenny O’Connell. As Jenny prepares for the launch of her adventure memoir, Wildheart, in June next year, she’s realizing that her life will a new imbalance. People will know her more intimately than she knows them. In this conversation, we discuss all the ways that she’s been preparing to be visible. We talk about how there’s an edge of being seen, of being seen in new ways, but that edge where life becomes art. I hope you enjoy. Christina: All right. It’s go time Season two, episode two. We are bringing back a wonderful dear friend who, Becky and I just decided this was a great reason to bring people we wanna talk to back here. And on episode one of this season, I talked a lot about you, Jenny, and so we have Jenny O’Connell back. For those of you who don’t know, we will, we can flag the first episode. Um she’s an author, wonderful person, dear, dear friend, of both Becky and I now. So welcome. Welcome. Jenny: Thank you. It’s the first time I’ve been calling myself an author. Christina: Ooh. Jenny: Like, that word- It is ... is new to me to claim, and so, um, what an honor it is to come back under that title. That’s amazing. I just finished my book after 12 years. Amazing. Becky: How’s it feel to claim it? Jenny: Feels really good, and it feels correct. Mm. Christina: It is correct. Jenny: Mm. Christina: Yeah, ‘cause last time when we had you on here before, you were almost done, but you weren’t done yet. You were kind of, uh, months away, maybe a couple months away. May- maybe more than that, actually. Jenny: Yeah, the last six months in particular have been some of the most intense and beautiful, months of my life, just- Mm ... with finishing this project that wanted to come through me starting 12 years ago, and has just kept coming through me, and sort of, like, shaping me into the person I am now. And finishing it, I didn’t, I didn’t know what it would mean to finish a book, but you’re a different person when you do that than, while you’re still writing it. Christina: Especially if you’re writing a memoir. Jenny: Yes, especially that. Christina: Yeah, I was actually gonna ask you, before you even said that note, I was gonna say, like, how have you changed? What is, what is your biggest change of self? ‘Cause I know you now, but I didn’t know you 12 years ago. Jenny: Oh, that’s such a good and layered question. Um, The first thing that’s coming to mind is that I feel more rooted in myself, and my purpose, and my own knowing than I ever have been before. I think a lot of the process was me getting here. You know? It was me circling these ideas, and really, peeling back the layers of my life, and coming into the most truthful relationship with myself that I could find. And there’s always more to do, you know? There’s always more to peel back and understand. But yeah, I feel rooted in myself and in what I’m here to do in this life, in a way that I never have before. And so the whole... It’s like my energy has coalesced. It’s like, it’s all just consolidated now. And it’s bright, and it’s here, and it’s go time Becky: Hmm. That image of, like consolidation. I, I just had this image of, like, all the pieces of yourself coming home. ... Like, last time we were talking about all the ways in which we’re tamed, which feels like a ripping apart, you know, a, a disassociation of all those parts, and this just feels like this beautiful homecoming all back to yourself. It’s really beautiful. Jenny: Thank you. Becky: Yeah. Jenny: The image that popped into my head was, like, when you eat a bowl of oatmeal and all the blood rushes to your stomach. Christina: It’s like that. Jenny: You know, it’s, it’s like both of those things. Becky: Life is like a bowl of oatmeal. I love it. Jenny: I couldn’t not share that. It was too funny. Christina: I love it. Becky: It’s perfect. Christina: I know. Yeah, I know that feeling, for sure. Um, what, what are you here to do, Jenny? Jenny: Um, I’m here to connect people back to themselves and to the earth, and to remind us that we are alive and that we don’t actually have all that much time here. And, for me, that mortality thread, we talked about this in the last conversation we had too, but it’s, it’s so important. We are a species that forgets that we are alive all the time, and I think that when I remember that, I come back to my own, um like, purpose and power and sort of a direction. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I’m here to, to connect us back to the experience of being alive. And, you know, we’re living in a time of intense disconnection. I’ve been thinking most of all lately about AI and about, what we’re losing with, uh, what we’re losing the more that we embrace that as a central way of being, and I think that a lot of my work reclaims the messy and the human and, you know, everything from, like, joy to grief to tenderness to, an accelerated heartbeat. It’s like there, there are these things that are so intensely human, that I refuse to let go of, and I think that that, that what is so intensely human and what is so alive is actually what’s going to bring us through this moment. So that’s something I’m willing to throw my whole life and work behind. Becky: It’s such a beautiful antidote of... A- and when you said like a, it is like a reclamation. As I think about AI, and I think about the forces bringing AI into this world, they wanna make it seem like it’s so inevitable, you know? That like, that, that we’re embracing it. But are we embracing it, or are we just being fed it? So this reclamation, this taking back of our humanity feels so powerful. It does feel like the antidote we need right now is to be wildly human, which means to be wildly messy, and wildly complicated, and wildly nuanced. And then transitioning into what’s next, maybe we wanna talk about today, is then to be seen in that wildness, in that messiness, you know? And I was really struck as we were talking last night about the Substack article you just posted about being seen, which we’ll obviously link. Um, but yeah, so you’ve had this coalescing of all these parts of yourself and a coming home, and now you’re releasing to the world. You’re being seen in your wildness, and about to be seen in such a bigger way. How’s that stirring in you right now? Jenny: Mm. You know, I mean, it’s uncomfortable. Um, there is, there is this imbalance that is about to happen in my life, where my book is an adventure memoir, and it is 250 pages intensely inside my body, and my heart, and my mind. And, I think that that is both, it feels amazing to be known in that way. Like what a gift that I get to be known like that. And it’s also a way that people will know me. Everybody who already has met me, and many who haven’t, will know me more intimately than I can know them. And so, I think it’s beautiful. You know? I embrace it, and it’s also- uncomfortable. It’s, it’s like there are things You know, I’m somebody who, I’m a guide, I’m a speaker, I’m a teacher. I’m often ... I don’t appear as somebody who, is uncomfortable being seen or letting herself be seen. But there have been these places that I’ve realized, that were, like, unknown to me, that have sort of come to light as I’ve thought about my book Meeting the World, and it’s, you know, subtle things. It’s like, thinking about the people in my life that I’m connected to and the ways that they might be uncomfortable when my book comes out, and how I might not manage their feelings. And ways that, ... For example, like, just being seen as a person who just sat for six months. Like, I’ve not been as, active and in the world and in my body as I would like to be, as, or as I usually am. And so that’s also a vulnerable thing. But it’s, um ... What I keep coming back to is just every time I feel cringey or uncomfortable about being seen in, in a way that I haven’t before, It’s like that grounding and purpose that brings me back. ‘Cause it doesn’t matter actually. Like, this isn’t about me. It’s about something so much bigger than me, and I’m just the vessel that’s allowing it to come through me, and I’m here to, reach as many people as I can and bring people back to their own wildness and to the wildness of the land and to how those things are interconnected. And so, when I root into that, it doesn’t matter. I don’t care. Yeah It’s, we’re, it, this is a place I’ve never been before. So that’s how I feel about it now, and, you know, ask me in a year after my book is out and I’ll tell you again. Christina: I mean, it sounds like you’re someone who is, is pretty comfortable, probably more comfortable than most sharing yourself openly with the world, and I, uh, identify with that as well. And still you’re, you’re really pushing on an edge by doing what you’re doing. And so I would ask you, how have you practiced what... Because it’s a muscle. We talk about this all the time on here, that we’re practicing these muscles, flexing these muscles so that we can, so that you, for example, can be seen by thousands of strangers and not manage their feelings, which I know as a friend of yours you’re very good at doing, at holding space for all people. So that’s probably really difficult for you. So how have you practiced, like, what have you done to practice being comfortable with this? Is it, like, faking it till you make it? Like, I actually don’t care about the extra, like, skin that sags over my pants for the last six months in a new way. Is it, like, letting it move through you? Like, I s- this is just an example, ‘cause you just said you’ve been sitting for six months. So, like, not having this active body, assuming that your body is changing, are you looking at pictures of yourself and judging them a little bit, and then rooting into the center of yourself and realizing this is actually not the point? The point is this more overarching theme of the book that I need to share. What have you done, what have you done to practice? Jenny: Mm. I feel like before I talk about now, I actually need to talk about the beginning of my writing journey, because one of the reasons that I think I was so attracted to creative writing, why I loved it so much, memoir and personal essays specifically, is, that it required me to be vulnerable. I had a really hard time being actually- Mm ... truly vulnerable, especially when I was younger. Um, I was a late bloomer, you know. Kind of came into my own, self, like personality, body, like, social joy, just power. I came into my power, a little bit later. Like, I would say toward the end of college and then after. And I was just stunned for a while in the beginning about how, people, like, pulled to me in ways they hadn’t before, like how I was sought out. And I used to lead with the shiniest parts of myself. I used to, you know, talk about the trips that I was guiding or the surfing that I had tried or, like, the, the fun and interesting thing that I had done. And then I started to realize, uh, the more I did that, that I was becoming a list of the things that I had done instead of- the true, messy, real, like, searching person that I was. And, I found creative writing around this time, or it found me, rather. I was just filling, journals. I could not stop writing. And I met a man on a plane, a stranger, who, he started asking me some questions about what I was gonna do when I got home to San Francisco. And, he looked at me after I, I was, like, writing in a journal, and he asked me about it. And he looked at me afterwards and he said, “Girl, when you start talking about writing, you get all wiggly. Like-” Oh. “... go sign up for a class. What are you doing?” Like, “You need to, you need to go do this.” And I was like, “Oh, maybe I do.” So I went and I signed up for a class, and I’ve just, um- I found that there was this way that good writing, like the reader can tell if you’re bullshitting. The reader can tell always if you’re hiding something, and it’s the most frustrating thing to read a piece of writing where the person is like obscuring themselves, you know, um, part of the way. And, so my 12, 13 years writing have been this progression of, um... It’s like a, it’s like a vulnerability parade. Like how, how can I go deeper? How can I be more honest? How can I be more true? I studied, uh, creative writing at an MFA program in Maine called Stonecoast MFA, and we had this third semester project. And I, was still really struggling to like fully open myself on the page. But, I was a musician as well, and I noticed that when I played a vulnerable song, this curtain lifted between me and the audience. Like this wall came down and it was just, me and them. And people would come up to me afterward and talk to me as if they knew me already, as if we were friends even though I’d never met them before. And they would share their stories with me or they would share something vulnerable of themselves with me. And so, for my third semester project at Stonecoast, I was like, “How do I do that in writing?” Like, how do I actually pull that same sort of vulnerability that I can evoke through music into my writing? Because I think when I’m suc- when I’ve succeeded, people will come to me and start telling me their stories. I will break that wall and, like we, there will be a real thread of connection. Like, that’s actually what I’m doing is I’m connecting to people. That’s the point. Um- You know, there are, there are scientists, there are researchers, there are policy makers, and we need their work. Mine is the business of heart work. I’m here to connect people heart first to themselves and also to the issues that we’re facing. And so yeah, I studied I asked my community for songs that sort of broke their hearts, but, you know, made them feel good in a way. And I listened to, like, 100 sad songs, and I would just, like, pull out, um, vulnerable moments. Like, what made it vulnerable? What made it real? What made me lean in and, like, want to connect? And it was, it was things like, like silence, um, you know, pauses, stillness. It was, like, where vulnerability resided, so sometimes it was, like, after a big moment or there was this ... Sometimes, the singers were, like, asking without any expectation of return or, like, offering themselves. You know, there were all these different ways that vulnerability showed up, and I started to pull that into my writing and I started to integrate. It really felt like integrating my, my former self with my current self. You know? It was just like weaving it all together. And now when I write, when I speak, almost every time I have somebody come up and start telling me about their life or ask a question or wanna connect and continue. So I really feel like that has been a, um, a driving beauty behind allowing myself to be seen is this deep ... My life is full of deep and rich connection. And I think that that’s what we’re all actually here to do and what we’re all craving and wanting, and that, you know, going back to what we were just talking about around, like, the human parts of ourselves, like, that is the point. And so I think I’m rooting in that too now. You know, it’s been 12, 13 years since I started seriously writing, and, I’m still rooted in that That center of, connection. So- Mm ... in small ways, uh, when I started realizing that there were ways that I was still hiding, I would make a point to, you know, I’m somebody who sometimes will, like, experience a moment and then later be like, “Oh, I wish I said this,” or like, “Oh, I wish I was more integrated in myself in that moment so I could actually, like, be more authentic.” And so one thing I did was just trying to pause in the moment and let myself feel what I’m feeling, and, like, speak what I’m feeling. So I, I was trying to be more integrated, like, in the present and be more authentic. I mean, there was one there was a launch video in which I was wearing, like, a sweaty, like, poorly fitting shirt you know, just, like, up on a cliff. We had woken up at 2:00 in the morning to hike Mount Katahdin for sunrise. It was part of a different project that I was working on, but, I planned. I was like, “I’m gonna bring a poster of the cover of my book,” and just I can’t think of a wilder place, I can’t think of a, a better moment or a better adventure to sort of, like reveal the cover and launch my book from. Um, but yeah, we had woken up in the middle of the night, we had climbed this mountain. And I was like, my hair was just, like, crazy. It was great. I mean who cares, you know? Um, but watching that later, I was like, “Oh, God,” like, I feel, you know, self-conscious a little bit. But then I watched it again, and I, I wrote about this, Becky, in the sub stack you’re talking about. I watched it again later, and once I got past that initial feeling of discomfort or, like, vulnerability, I noticed how just ecstatic I was. It was the first time I was calling myself an author. I was standing on a mountain that I loved in a place that I loved, revealing the cover of my book that I had just written for 12 years. And, um, it was actually so beautiful. Like, it was so full of life. Mm-hmm. Becky: It makes me weepy hearing you describe that, and it just makes me think of, like, all the times I know in my life I’ve shut down parts of myself because I was so worried about how I was being seen. Like, the... That’s the thing about being seen, right? Is, like, when we’re afraid of it, our orientation is outside of ourselves. It’s, it’s anticipating what other people are going to see from the outside instead of, like, what you connected to, which is how did you feel in that moment? And you could see it through your eyes, through your expression, through the life within you. Christina: Mm. Becky: And it, uh, yeah, it’s tender. It’s tender. Because we’ve all done it, and, what, what’s missing, what’s lost when we orient outside of ourselves. Jenny: Yeah. I mean, I think one of... I talk about a lot of things through the lens of wildness, right? And one of the sights of lost wildness, I think, is when the gaze gets turned on us in a different way, when we reach a certain age, and then the world starts to, like, shift their gaze in a different way. And, um I know that a lot of my earlier years, in the outdoor world, and just in my life, I was performing rather than living. You know? I was doing what I thought people expected of me or what they wanted to see, and I was so preoccupied with, like, what I was supposed to look like or be like or act like or do, and how it was supposed to, appear, that I forgot I forgot to, like, really be present for how it was feeling and what, wanted to get in. Becky: Mm. Jenny: Spoiler alert, I talk about that a lot in my book. It was actually, that was a huge site of unwilding for me, and I had to reclaim that. And I think it is so interesting how every step of my book process has mirrored the journey to the journey itself- Mm-hmm ... in an interesting way, and this is no exception. Christina: Mm-hmm. Um, I think of things, you know, knowing that wildness is returning in, in your definition, is returning us to our own power and, like, our own centers. I don’t think I’ve talked about this on here. Um, but I, I can remember a very, very singular moment when someone took away my self-interest and reflected it back to me as selfishness. That took a long time. It must have happened, like, at a very specific time. So my kids are nine and six, and I see all of them interested in themselves, and I love seeing that because that is... Like, we are all walking miracles and manifestations of the universe in form, right? That’s amazing. It’s an incredible thing to see how each person is singular from the next and how we are connected. So I see them oftentimes, like I’ll walk into a bathroom and one of them is in the mirror looking at themselves, making faces. When they get very upset, they’ll run to a mirror and see what they look like while they’re in anguish. And I never stop them. I never comment on them seeing themselves in those experiences because of this singular moment where I was probably, mm, 10, 11, 12, and I went to help an aunt of mine with her kids over the summer. And, she is someone who’s also very interested in herself. And I was looking at my reflection in the mirror as I walked by, and she stopped and said, “Christina, how many times a day do you look at yourself in the mirror? I’ve already counted 12.” And I was like, “Woo.” Like, it runs, it makes my body feel hot right now when I talk about this because all of the times after that moment that I saw myself, her remark was in my brain, and I was thinking, “Is this me being selfish or is this actually me just, like, being interested about myself and who I am?” And so I think about mirrors , literal, metaphorical, the people and forces in our lives that tame or take that away or judge, and I just feel so glad to have the opportunity to not do that to anyone I love, the world at all because we should be interested in ourselves. Like, you should spend 12 years writing about yourself because your self is really interesting, and I want to hear about the things that you talk about. It’s, it circles back to even AI. Like, I’m not interested in that. I’m interested in, like, the way your heels felt when you walked longer than you thought you were gonna walk. Like, I wanna read about that. I wanna learn about that. I wanna hear your thoughts. I’m really excited for other people to hear your thoughts. It’s just, um... Yeah, I just am so glad that you’re doing what you’re doing, and I’m glad to know someone like you who is holding a really strong mirror and standing proudly in yourself in front of all these people in a messy way. Good job, Jenny. Thank you so much. Becky: Yeah. I mean, and you said it already, Jenny, that, like, that you putting yourself out there, you’re seeing how it inspires other- Yeah others every time you sing and s- and you’re vulnerable and we respond to that. That’s what I think lights us up. Inevitably, everyone recognizes that as aliveness, as like the point. And yeah, you sharing it, Yeah, it’s such a gift. And it’s, you know, this whole idea of like s- being self-centered. Well, of c- we should be self-centered, centered in self. And we are all unique individual beings. W- it’s such a shame if we don’t explore ourselves and look in the mirror and, and get to kn- who else is gonna get to know this creation if not us? But then we get to share. Jenny: Yes. Becky: And it’s honestly less about I wanna hear about your, your heels hitting the ground too, but it’s, that’s not even the point. It’s you showing me how to feel my own heels on the ground- Yes ... and what, get interested in that. That to me is the real magic of being fully seen in whether you’re a, a bestselling author to come, or you’re just stepping into your own life with more authenticity, not on a national stage. You know? That’s, that’s the juice. That’s like, yeah, that’s the magic. Jenny: Yeah. I used to have, a little piece of paper taped to my wall that said, “Look for the place where your life becomes art.” Like, it’s like look for the place where it transcends, because that is where it becomes art. You know? It’s, um, we all have these mundane, ordinary... Holy ordinary, to quote your last episode and Terry Tempest Williams. But, um, yeah. We have these like ordinary existences, but I think when we share deeply from them, we’re able to transcend our own experiences and make meaning in a way that allows other people to step into the meaning of their lives. Becky: Mm-hmm. Also, this idea, what’s striking me is like what, who gets to decide what’s ordinary? There is nothing ordinary about being on a spinning rock in like one of a trillion galaxies, with like billions of organisms in our gut, like, there’s nothing ordinary about this moment right now, and why, why, where did that word like ordinary and normal, and why do we accept these things? Jenny: Yeah. I feel like my job as somebody who is visible is to be the wildest and most alive version of myself that I can be, and to tell stories from that place Christina: You’re doing it. You’re doing it. It reminds me of the trip that we were all a part of, your first, Wild Heart trip. And like, I don’t know, Becky, do you wanna... Like, I witnessed you on edges and edges of wildness, and, it was a, I don’t know, maybe do you wanna, like, tee up what it actually was, Jenny? And then do you wanna talk about your experience there, Becky? Sure. Jenny: Sure. So, it’s just, this was another way of me trying to integrate all of the things I most love. so it was a Wild Heart adventure, and it was based around the themes of my book, and, sort of the rewilding of ourselves and connection to place. And, and it was a kayaking trip, a sea kayaking trip. So we kayaked to an island. I think there were eight of us, nine of us maybe with me. And we kayaked to an island, and we stayed overnight on Little Chebeague in Casco Bay. And we each brought a wild offering from our lives, like something that made us feel wild and alive. And the trip kind of continued from... Like, the magic all happened. I, I held the container for all of those things, and then, um, magic happened in the gaps. Becky: Hmm. Definitely there was magic in the gaps. Mm-hmm. So yeah, there was, there was a lot of, meeting of edges for me. And it, it’s interesting because, I mean, Christina, you never backpacked. Like, there was, there were definitely people in the group that had less experience, and I didn’t anticipate that my edge would come there, but it was raining when we arrived on the island, and we’re setting up our tent and, it was my, like, physical discomfort edges coming up. Um, but was... what was really beautiful, and you reflected this back to me, Christina, with a question in our... Like, we had these beautiful, uh, hot seat sharing circles where everyone was kind of the center of the circle, and everyone could ask questions. It was supposed to be for five minutes, but every time we were like, “No.” Yeah. “Longer, longer.” Um, which was so powerful for a lot of reasons, ‘cause how often in our lives do we just get to be seen by a group of supportive, loving people, and how often do we get to get curious and ask anything about people we love or people we’re interested in? So even just, like, that, that simple suggestion of let’s do hot seat, you know, is such an opportunity for, deepening and uh, revealing things. Um, but your question in that hot seat was what was my practice? ‘Cause you were noticing, Christina, my hitting my edges. And what was really beautiful is I didn’t even think about the practices. Like, I’ve been doing them so long that it... I just kind of moved through them quickly. So that was a beautiful reflection , but the the most impactful moment for me on that trip was in one of those hot seats, and it was completely unexpected. I don’t even remember what the question was, but my answer was, that surprised even me, was, “I am a life and death doula.” Came out of my mouth, not something I had ever heard of it being a thing, So now I came home and I, you know, this teacher that I had seen has been kinda in the back of my mind for years and years. Um, but I always thought it was something different, something in the future, and I came home and I sat on my porch after that trip, and I just sat in that silence, in that stillness that you talked about, where the vulnerability can live And I just went straight on her website, and it was this like, synchronicity of every single training, through the next year was full on her website except for the one that had started two days prior. And I reached out and I applied and I said, “I don’t know if this is a glitch on your website or if this is fate, but here I am.” And, and I got in and I started tr- my training, so now I’m really sitting in death and, um What keeps coming through me is that we’re so scared of death because it’s so unknown, but so is life. In this moment, you know, in that moment in that sharing circle, it was completely unknown to me what I was gonna say. But because I was present, because I was willing to be vulnerable, because I wasn’t pre-planning anything, I was in that moment, something unexpected came out. So, like, you know, you are, are bringing this work to the world, Jenny, through the lens of, of wildness, and I hear echoes of the same thing. And, and so now it’s revealing my lens, my gift, my offering is through the lens of death work. But we’re all getting to the same thing, is how do we find a way to live fully alive in each moment in this wild unknown? Jenny: Hmm. I love that that came out on your edges, like from the place of your edges. And I, when I was, I was in a guide training once and my instructor talked about outdoor adventure as, he used the term positive risk-taking. Hmm. It’s like a chosen risk, you know, to the point where which is also like sometimes a bad thing where, you know, I... You’re walking across Finland and you’re like, “Why the fuck am I doing this? Like, what is wrong with me?” You know? Like, I’m struggling and it’s my fault. Like, it’s my choice to be here. Um, but it’s also a place where, we have to reach for parts of ourselves that are there but not always needed. You know, we- they’re like these reserves of resilience or creativity. Um, and I have found when I throw myself out on my edges, that is one of the richest places to be. Hmm. Because that is when... I, I believe that some of these, things that we’re meant to receive or these, like thoughts or ideas or realizations, it’s much harder for them to come through if you’re comfortable. Yes. I think it’s often when you are choosing to be, or maybe not choosing, to be out on your edges in some way, and that is such a rich creative space, and it allows these things to drop in. And so I love, love that that happened for you. Mm. And you got to feel that in real time. And that’s truly, that is what I love. One of the things I love most about outdoor adventure is just the possibility, that’s waiting for me when I destabilize myself a little bit and have to really root down and trust myself and listen. Becky: Hmm. Yes. It’s one of the most powerful practices I ever gifted myself was intentionally practicing getting comfortable with discomfort, because I think of this in the context of any growth. Growing is uncomfortable. I always think in the contexts of like when little, when our bodies are young and they’re growing, we have literal growing pains. Hmm. But emotional growth is the same thing. You said it, Jenny, like it’s really hard to access those, those edges, those growth edges when we’re comfortable. So choosing to practice it, I think is the intelligent thing to do, because life be lifin’, and life will life wants to grow, right? Mm. Life wants us on that edge, ‘cause that’s the essence of what life is. So I, I think it’s intelligent to practice it before th- life forces your hand. Christina: I mean, it’s also, l- like the day after we got back, you slept at my house, Becky, and then you left the next morning, and I remember you telling all of us who had gone on the trip that when, you know, the chaos of my life, like kids are running around or whatever, and I was probably inside helping somebody who hurt themselves, and you said you just started looking around and just weeping on the porch, and then you just sobbed all the way home. There’s like a... Even in this, like, major light bulb moment life pivot, usually it’s, it’s not easeful. It’s filled with this like overwhelming swell of feeling that is asking to be released. Mm-hmm. Um, because it’s, because again, it’s like w- it’s not comfortable being at that edge. And so if you can just allow yourself to feel the feels at the edge, it’s really helpful. I mean, I’ve, I cried- Yeah ... so many times. My edges were newborn twins, right? And I would like drop them off and, at daycare or whatever, and s- just sob in the car because- Mm-hmm ... it’s so hard. Becky: Mm. So hard. And, and so what I recognized on that drive home is those big feelings, that sobbing, I, I, I just... I guess I used to associate things like tears with sadness, with hardship. I recognize those tears were a recognition of alignment. I was listening- Mm ... to the audiobook of my now teacher and just feeling Yes. Like, this is my place. And that feeling of feeling aligned with where I’m meant to be and what I’m meant to do was so overwhelming, but it wasn’t sad. It wasn’t hard. It was this deep swell of joy and love, and that was just the reminder. And I used to, like, Tarra, my wife, knows that I will cry at anything, right? I, I have access to that. But I always associated them with pain and fear and, and- Mm ... and I, I just realized how much I’ve been cutting myself off from letting them through because it’s joy and it’s love and it’s like, it’s life, you know? Um- Jenny: I call it wonder crying. Becky: Yes. Jenny: I do it a lot. Becky: That’s the Jenny: perfect name. You wanna see? Wonder crying and beauty grunting, that’s like what I’m known for. So true. It’s like when you see something that’s just so beautiful you can’t hold it in your body and you just make a terrible noise. Like, or at least I do. It’s like, “Ugh.” Sunset. Or like, wonder crying for me, it feels like a moment that I’m getting to crack open. Like, what a joy. Yes. What a gift to get to crack open. If we don’t adventure for anything else, like, that, that is it, right? You know, if we don’t push ourselves out onto our edges or risk ourselves for what we love or for our art or our passion, it’s for the possibility of cracking open. Because every time you do, you expand. You get bigger. You, become more yourself. Becky: Mm-hmm. Christina: Oof. That is correct The music was recorded live as a part of the sound service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece, is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Siler are singing Becky: That’s exactly what it feels like and exactly what it is. That’s what I felt. Like, I felt like my energy moving up and filling up my whole body. And yes, what is this wave of Becky? And like being-- like I find myself really curious, like not looking outside of myself, but like so deeply curious about this wave that’s Becky. It’s so fucking cool, and it is miraculous. And like, yes, this is... Like we’ve been so convinced that life can’t be magical, but like this is, I think, what life actually is. It’s the true essence of life. We’ve just been convinced to be so disconnected from it. It’s so fucking cool. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit noticingpod.substack.com (https://noticingpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

2. 

   18 Sept 2026

   Nature and the Subtle Body

   Welcome To Season Two! When I say, “listen to your elders,” who comes to mind? Your grandparents? Your ancestors? In this episode we talk about how the trees, plants, and natural elements that surround us are the wisest elders we can tune into now. Christina shares a story from a recent artist residency on an island in Maine when she heard the island clearly speaking to her. Becky heard this, felt inspired, and went home and for the first time invited the trees in the backyard into conversation. Delightfully, they answered. We discuss explicitly how each of us arrives into this communion with the world around us. Unsurprisingly, it is similar to how we hear our own inner wisdom clearly. Episode Transcript Christina: Oh man. First day of school. New season begins. I have had to put my spiritual self, my partner self, my creative self on the back burner for three months. And I knew that was coming, and I have resisted it before, and it’s made the summer difficult. Um, and I was in, like, better relationship, like more accepting of it all this summer, and still, I am so glad to find and, like, recalibrate to a more suitable balance for me. I am not meant to be a housewife for more than a month. It is hard. And yeah. You know the first thing I’m gonna do today after I get home is run my energy with your voice in my ears, because I couldn’t think of a better thing to do before kicking off school season. Yes. Becky: Welcome to season two of Noticing, the podcast about nothing and everything at the same time. I’m Becky DeCicco, and I am back in conversation with my dear friend and co-host, Christina Watka, and we’re talking about communication with our elders, with the land, with the subtle energies that take stillness and sustained attention to actually hear. Welcome back, and we hope you enjoy Christina: It’s our season two, formally. Yeah. Begins right now. Becky: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Christina: Um, yeah, and I think, I think the first season was really about us, figuring a lot of stuff out together. Becky: Yeah. Christina: And then taking a break for the summer felt very good. I needed it. I don’t think I could have juggled this actually all summer. Becky: Yeah. Christina: Um, but it was also just nice... It felt really nice to take a break from having long conversations. Like, it felt like a, it felt like a perfect time to pause this Mm-hmm Um, and we’re always having long philosophical conversations anyway. But, um, yeah, I feel very much like I’m at a new beginning place right now. Becky: Yeah. Me too. Christina: Mm-hmm. Becky: As I thought about where we should start, I feel like we have to start on Norton’s Island. Christina: Yeah, I was thinking that too. So this summer, I... Over the last two years actually, I have been taking one month off, and I spend that mostly being a mom and hanging with my kids. And then this summer, it ended up just working out that I needed to take the whole summer off. Um, except for this incredible artist residency I attended on an island off the coast of Maine, with 10, uh, nine other creatives. And, it felt like it was meant to be. For example, I had a dream about being there with our mutual friend Jenny, who’s been on the podcast before. And, it was like one of those very cosmic dreams, and in the dream just briefly we were on a boat together with a bunch of other people, a small boat, and this whale was speaking to us before it emerged from the top of the ocean. And so we knew that it was approaching, and we could feel it kind of energetically approaching, and then it crested really close to the boat, and everyone was very afraid, but she and I both knew it was there, and we knew that it wasn’t there to hurt us. And then it went back in. So when I had that dream, I didn’t know that I was going yet, and so I told her, and we were like, “Well, it’s probably gonna happen then.” We did not have this experience on the island, however. We did not go in a boat and see a whale right next to us. But it was, um ... It came at a time where my spirituality and the practices and rituals that I have in the day are pretty steady. And my spirituality is at like a life high at the moment. Probably will just stay at this level forever. Maybe. I don’t know. Um, and- Becky: Or expand ... Christina: it was ... Or expand. Yeah. Um- I actually wrote something and I printed it so that I could read it, thinking that we were gonna talk about Norton Island, because it sort of explains the conversation I had with the island itself. So this was something that I read to the people that were there. Um, “every day I have been here, I’ve sent my consciousness down to the center beating place of this island. To me, it looks like a golden root, glowing, patient, and steady. It is a tether that pulses, flows, resources. The first day, I asked the island what I could do for her while I was here, and she told me, ‘Listen to how many ways I breathe.’ So I did. I heard the airy swish of seaweed, whips of wind, gulls, the bark of a seal, felt the swaying sensation of earth, the low tide hum. When she knew I’d listened long enough, she gave me the assignment for my time here. She told me, ‘Now show me how you breathe from your heart.’” And so it was... I, I think there’s, I think there’s something to this. Um, as I was thinking about what we were thinking about talking about today, loosely sort of being able to hear nature, being able to hear a tree or an island, and s- discern what it is and w- uh, be able, being able to separate your thoughts from what you’re hearing- Mm-hmm ... communication that you’re hearing. When I heard this, Jenny and I were together. We decided, um, we decided to go find a remote place on the island to sit together and to just make ourselves known to it. And I think that was an important beginning, not to say like, “What can I get from you?” But, “What can I offer you?” Mm-hmm. “I recognize you, whoever you are, as something sentient, conscious, and I am here to listen,” versus, “I am here to tell or own, or take.” So she and I were sitting there, you know, like back to back. And we just decided to close our eyes and get very still and see what happened And Jenny heard some things, first, and I’m forgetting exactly what she heard first, but then what happened when I knew that I was actually really hearing, first I was seeing this golden root. It was like my consciousness literally was shown... It sort of, like, traveled deep into the center golden place of this space. And then I knew that I was hearing something true because my whole body welled up with, like, tears. I felt the feeling first, and then I heard the sentence. And so to hear like, oh, you know, from the island’s perspective, “Oh, Christina, yay, you wanna talk to me. This is so great. Just listen to the many ways that I breathe,” that was not something that I would have thought. And so then I’m, like, working with the energy of this island, and then I heard all of these things. And then it was like you asked me, Christina, you asked me what, what you could do while you were here, and so show me all the ways that you breathe from your heart. And that’s like a really... That’s a specific thing to say. And so then I spent the entire residency thinking about that. Mm. Am I breathing from my heart if I’m doing this? Am I breathing from my heart if I’m making work and keeping it in one contained room? No, I actually think I need to make this work and go hang it from trees. Um. Yeah. It was... There was so much that happened in that short amount of time. Um, mm-hmm. Yeah ... Becky: how are you... I have thoughts, but first I’m curious how it feels. I’ve heard you share iterations of this. How’s it feel to share in this format? Christina: It feels important. Becky: Yeah. Christina: Um, because the people that I have shared this with one-on-one, then I have seen the ripples of that conversation where then later they are going home and saying like, “I wonder if I can listen to the tree in my backyard. I wonder if I can go outside and believe the thoughts that enter my brain when I’m still in my garden.” Christina: And honestly, like, it may sound wacky to many people, but I kinda don’t really care, and also it’s really wonderful because the, the result is that you feel more connected to the place that you are at any given moment. Becky: Mm-hmm. The first thing that’s coming up is the wackiness of that some people might perceive it as wacky, and, it just makes me reflect on the culture that we’ve created. And, and not we, you and I, but, like, we as the larger species. Um, and it just flashed into my head, Tarra posted this thing on Instagram that was like, “Why have we been taught to fear the witches instead of the ones that burned them alive?” Yes. You know? And it’s, it’s just so ridiculous when you start getting a little bit of perspective and zooming out a little bit from- from the water we were swimming in and actually get in touch with what feels true. It all feels so ridiculous. Mm. Not you speaking with- The earth that you are made from that actually feels very natural. It’s- Yeah ... it’s the idea that anyone would judge that or think it’s silly, that becomes the silly thought. Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s like, you know, before, uh, um, like a lesser version of this would be, like, me talking to my plants. You know? Mm. When people might come to my house and say, “You’ve got all these beautiful plants. Like, I don’t have a green thumb. I kill everything I try to grow.” And, and my response has always been, like, “I just talk to them and listen to them.” And that is very accepted, I think. “Oh, just- Yeah ... you know. But what if you take it what if you take it into all these different places? Like, what if you go- Yeah ... sit on the beach and look out at it and see if you can ask it a question, and be still enough, and non-judgmental of your own thoughts enough, and curious enough that it’s possible that you might receive an answer? Becky: Yeah. Christina: My kids do it. Becky: Yeah. Christina: Um, yeah. What else is coming up for you? Becky: What really struck me this time was the breath that the island was inviting you to watch all the ways that they breathe- Mm ... and the way that you breathe from your heart. And Breath is for me reciprocation you know it’s relationship With The beings . That you’re trying to , speak to. It’s a literal reciprocation of oxygen and carbon dioxide, and, um, it’s just, it really struck me that you were being invited into deeper relating through breath. Christina: Yeah. Mm. That’s a beautiful Yeah, that’s a beautiful way to think about it. And also, like, it was sort of speaking to me in metaphor, which I think is really lovely. Becky: Mm-hmm. Christina: All the ways that I breathe. So then I was asked to open my mind enough to think like, “Okay, how could an island breathe? What does breathe mean?” Mm-hmm. “How can I breathe? What does it mean to breathe from my heart versus breathing from my lungs and, and my breath?” Um- Yeah. And the idea of like me, someone who’s there on an artistic journey, a creative endeavor, where as an artist, this is where my head went. If I’m breathing from an open heart, I’m creating with my full self. I am as generous, as limitless, as open as possible. Becky: Mm-hmm. Christina: And that is what I want everyone to be. And that is what nature is This all comes freely. It’s like Robin Wall Kimmerer talks about this all the time. Becky: Mm-hmm. Christina: She talks about even she, when she was growing up, she learned to only take as much as, much as she needed, and to ask permission first, right? Mm-hmm. And like sometimes it’s even... I do this even when I get stones from the beach. I’ll ask, “Is this okay if, if I take it back with me?” Um, sometimes I hear or feel, “Actually, no.” Becky: Yeah. Christina: Um, or sometimes I’ll take a stone ‘cause I think, ‘cause my own ego is like, “Yeah, it’s fine,” and then it, I’m, it’s in my hand, and five steps away I hear like, “Please no,” or, “It’s actually not for you.” Becky: Yeah. Christina: Yeah. Becky: What struck me there is you were, um, acknowledging or noticing that it’s speaking to you in metaphor. Of course it would speak to you in metaphor, the, the writer, the poet, the artist. Christina: Mm. Becky: You know? And it reminds me, you know, as we think of, like speaking this out loud being important and inviting others into their own dialogue, reminding people that it’s through you as you, you know? Mm. So reminding people that it might not speak in metaphors to you. Mm. You know, I was sharing with you that, when we came back from our powerful kayaking adventure, I was sitting on my patio and, and started speaking to the trees in my backyard, and there was no metaphor. It was just like, “Hi.” You know? And just recognizing that there’s no right way that these communications come through. They come through you as you. Christina: Mm. Becky: . And there’s eight billion versions of us. Mm. You know, there’s eight billion ways that this relationship will take form, and I kind of think that’s the point of our species. What’s that? Is, like, we have... Well, the, the beings that you’re connecting to, that you’re speaking with I, I guess I was reflecting on how do I get to that place within... How do I get to that place where I can recognize what they’re saying is truth and not coming from my mind or my ego? I was thinking about this as, um, in the last day when I was walking around And I can’t just walk around and, you know, speak to trees. It’s... I’m moving too fast. I have to be still. It’s the same way I connect to myself. Christina: Yes. Becky: ... If, if I want to hear my own inner voice, I have to be still, and it’s the same thing when I’m trying to communicate with other beings, is I have to be still. Hmm. And so what, what struck me as I was reflecting on that is we’re pulling from the same place. When, when we’re trying to listen to that deeper knowing within us, when we’re trying to connect with a deeper relationship with the world or... that we’re interconnected with, we’re pulling from the same Source. I call it Source. You can call it from whatever you want, but it’s beyond this physical world. Hmm. And I believe, and, you know, I don’t claim this to be true or fact, but that the other beings are kind of always in that place. Christina: Yeah. Becky: You know? They’re having their own experience, but they’re deeply connected to life, to source, and we’re not. We have this unique... And we don’t know. Like, we don’t... This is based on what we know of the other beings, and we know so very little, right? But as far as we know, we’re the only ones that can, like, live in abstraction, like, live, um, a little disconnected from Source. But that also gives us the opportunity to reflect back to Source. Like, we get to forget so that we have the journey of remembering and reconnecting. And like, the island, the island knows it breathes. The island knows all the ways it breathes, but we get to serve as a mirror and, like, be in relationship. It’s like if you’re... I don’t know if this is gonna feel good or, like, fit as a metaphor, but if you’re a dancer, I don’t know why this is coming, and you’re in your bedroom by yourself dancing your dance, like, it’s incr- I’m sure it’s incredible, right? It’s freeing. It’s wonderful. But then to be witnessed in that- Mm-hmm ... it’s like a whole new, um, expansion of, of your, your creation, right? And that’s what life is, is one big creation. Mm-hmm. So life has been creating all of these beings and all of this immense amount of life and creativity, and then it created us to bear witness. Christina: Hmm. I love that. Yeah. And it was even in this example, the listen to how many ways that I breathe, um, that is reciprocity, me listening, taking that invitation- Becky: Yeah ... Christina: keeping the conversation open, and actually noticing, spending however long it took for me to- Yeah ... really pay attention to that. Becky: Yeah. Christina: And then I felt like the island and I were still in conversation the rest of the time that I was there as I was doing what it invited me to do. Mm-hmm. And bringing other people into this magic. And I was thinking the same thing, like what you were saying before about how, how you can reach this communication. And you know, in conversations with, with other friends recently, encouraging them, talking about the same sort of thing, like encouraging them to, to hear what’s around them. A lot of things that are brought up is like, how do I know- Becky: Mm ... Christina: what is my thought and what is not my thought? And that is a really nuanced place that’s hard to describe and is probably different for everyone. But even to try to parse it out a little bit, even when Jenny and I went and found this big rock and sat back to back and decided to see what would happen, there was no expectation of what was about to happen. Becky: Yeah. Christina: So, like, that’s first. We both, at this point, know how to kind of empty ourselves- Mm-hmm ... so that we can be in a place of receiving. And sometimes it can take five minutes, sometimes it can take 10 seconds, and there’s no judgment if you’re four and a half minutes in and nothing’s really singing to you yet. Becky: Yeah. Christina: So even in this case, talking to the island, it... I th- I thought, like I can remember sitting there with Jenny thinking, “This is really nice, and maybe it’s just like, maybe our feeling that this island was ready to communicate with us is actually not true ‘cause nothing’s-” Mm “really coming.” And I accepted that. I was just like, “Maybe that’s not happening.” Yeah. Because if you think about it, like sometimes I don’t wanna sit and have a conversation with somebody. Becky: Yeah. That’s okay. It’s like sovereignty. Like, the, every being has sovereignty, and it’s not, it- it’s not our born right to, to have the attention of anyone or any being, yet we, we kind of live in a society where we think we do. Christina: Mm-hmm. Becky: But yeah. Mm-hmm. It’s like giving up to the sovereignty of the being you’re trying to be in relationship with. Christina: Totally. Like, you know, going out into your garden and trying to hear something and it doesn’t work the first time, and then giving up. Becky: Yeah. Christina: You don’t know. Becky: Or trying to sit in meditation and, and trying to get still and listen to your own inner knowing, and it doesn’t happen the first time, and you give up. Christina: Mm-hmm. Becky: It’s, it’s a practice. Mm-hmm. It’s a new muscle that you’re, you’re learning how to flex and build. Christina: Totally. Yep. Um- Yeah, and I think for me, even for, like, people who might be listening thinking, like, “How do you... How does one do this?” For me, it works very well to just stay very open and accepting of whatever’s gonna happen, and to be incredibly patient, which naturally I’m not. But, but I have learned that, how to do that. And, and just trust- Becky: I think that’s helpful actually for people to know. Oh. I think they would assume you were born with, like, this deep presence and, like... Or deep patience. Sorry. You d- were born with a lot of presence, but I meant patience. Yeah. But that you had to, you had to intentionally... Like, you intentionally schedule quarterly, uh, time to be with your stillness. Like, that is a deep commitment and practice of getting patient and getting still. Like, I think- Yes ... it’s important for people to know this, that it’s not, you know... We’re all born with different capacities, sure, but everyone who wants to hear themselves and the world more deeply, everyone has to practice that. Christina: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I am a fiery, to-do list crosser-offer, impatient, bold ass person. And this is something that I heard the call for sure three or four years ago, to really cultivate the spaciousness in me. Because I had, like, lived through the chapter of that fiery busyness, but good, full life busyness, not like burnout busyness. Just, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think, so that is important to say. So I really do have a practice of cultivating patience, and it’s beautiful because the payoff is that much better for me because, I have learned, and I have worked that muscle a lot. Yeah. And now I can arrive into a very patient and conscious place easy, easily. Becky: Mm-hmm. Christina: Um, even when I’m doing light healings, like, there might be times where it takes a while to connect with the person that’s with me, and I just, I don’t rush it, ‘cause that doesn’t help at all. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Another example was yesterday... So, so I will say, like, at this point, at kinda anywhere I go, I’m in, like, a... I, I aspire to have a connection with place wherever I am. And usually I can, like, hear things pretty clearly, and some are more profound, like an island speaking this beautiful metaphor, and others are just I feel connected to where I am. But, um, yesterday I went to the beach with my daughter and her friend, and at the end I went for a quick swim by myself before we left, and there was, um... Right when I got to the ocean, I said hello to it like I always do, and, and when I went to go place my hands on the surface of the water as, like, a gentle hi, I saw this, like, brackish-looking river that was running through the ocean, and my logical, maybe, like, more anxious brain was... put the thought of, like, “Do not swim here. Be careful” Hmm ... into my brain. But I think it’s because I had just seen a seal nearby, so I was thinking about sharks and blood. Yeah. And also, this... I’d never seen this brackishy tendril moving through this beach before. I’d also never been there at low tide like this before, so it could’ve been so many different things. But I was discerning and knew that that was actually me trying to make sense of what I saw and not me actually hearing- Becky: Hmm ... Christina: the water. Becky: Hmm Christina: But it’s tricky. Becky: Did you, um, move through that and then hear the water more clearly? Christina: Um, no, I didn’t hear the water. I just moved through it and allowed myself to take a quick swim. Becky: Hmm. So- Christina: If I have some sort of like eye fungus in two weeks I’ll let you know. Becky: Yeah, I’m so curious. I don’t- I, my... I want to know what, like what you were afraid of because now I’m like, “Should I be afraid of a river of brackish running through the ocean?” Christina: No, it wouldn’t have been anything... Becky: No. My fear brain took over and I was like, “Tell me all the things I should be scared of,” but no. No. That’s not the conversation we’re having. Christina: No, it, it was mostly just like me seeing something new and thinking that that was the voice of the water. Do you know what I mean? Becky: Hmm. Christina: Which it wasn’t. I mean, I’ve seen... At this- Hmm ... particular beach there is like a fresh water stream that comes into the ocean and turns it kind of brownish, reddish- Hmm in an area. Um, yeah. Becky: Interesting. Something... You saw something new and you thought it was the voice of the water, but it actually was like something new, if I’m hearing right, seeing something new kind of sent you into a... Did it send you in- into kind of a f- f- fear place? Christina: Yeah. Yeah, like my... The thought that entered my head was not the voice of some natural element, it was the voice of like, “Uh-oh.” Yeah. “Watch out.” Mm. Becky: ... My mind has been deeply in the world of the unknown as I start my death doula training. What’s more unknown than what’s after, after this life? So my mind is kind of primed to, to notice how we respond to the unknown and what happens. Hmm. And, um, so that’s just what, what my, where my brain went for a second. Yeah. Christina: Yeah, it was just... It was me noticing the thought. Becky: Yeah. Christina: Basically. Like even in meditation like, “Hi, thought,” like you say, you know when- Yeah ... you have a thought. So yeah, it was, it was me, yeah, noticing the thought, recognizing it as fear and telling it like, “It’s okay. I’m gonna go ahead and put my body all the way in this.” Becky: But it’s a good point of like I don’t think we’ve fully fleshed out how to discern. How to discern is this your thinking brain or is this an actual message? Christina: That just takes practice, honestly. Becky: Yeah. Christina: I think that’s what therapy was for me. Like when I went to- Hmm ... IFS therapy and I... I really believe at this point that I went there to discern- To discern between my emotions and all there is. Becky: But what was it in therapy? Was it, uh, w- was it having a guide? Was it- Christina: Hmm ... Becky: just intentionally setting out to, setting aside the time? Christina: Um, I think it was, I think I was matched with a really wonderful guide. Um, also it was IFS therapy, which is more meditative, and so I would go every other week. It was, like, an hour of time where I would go and, and lay in a quiet state and, you know, like, turn inward and listen. Mm-hmm. And so yeah, I think for me, it was, it was being in that quiet state, practicing being present with what was showing up. Mm-hmm. And also, for me, similar messages and imagery showed up frequently. Becky: Hmm. Christina: Um, and so I would often, um... And it wasn’t, like, old childhood trauma images and messages. It was, like, um, universal ones. So I practiced being with those without judging them and understanding them to be more of a universal- experience or, uh, I don’t know, a universal truth. I don’t know what the right thing to say here would be, but it, it felt- Mm ... like something that was beyond me, but was arriving in me- Becky: Mm ... Christina: on purpose. Becky: Yeah. Christina: Does that make sense? Becky: Yeah. I mean, what’s striking me is kind of the elements are stillness- Christina: Mm-hmm ... Becky: and, sustained attention. Yes. Um so for the stillness, um, I always go to water, and I used to, um... When we had a hot tub, I would always love laying in the hot tub, and I never liked turning on the jets. I just liked being in the hot water, and I would, like, dip my finger and, like, play with the ripples. And it’s like when you have that stillness, you can discern the ripples. You can, like, see... And the, uh, w- I go to ripples ‘cause ripples are vibrations. Thoughts are vibrations. Speech is vibrations. You know, it’s just like receiving a message. But when the water’s really choppy, you can’t discern one from the other, and we live in such a noisy, noisy, noisy world. Mm-hmm. And our minds can get so noisy. So that’s why the stillness is so important because I think these messages are so subtle. Christina: Mm-hmm. Yes. Becky: Some traditions even refer to the energetic world as the subtle bodies. You know? Mm. The messages are really subtle. And then the other is sustained attention, and I can’t remember if you told me this or you shared something with me, but it’s really stuck with me that the longer that we look deeply on anything, it becomes a mirror. Hmm. So it’s like as you’re Sitting with and offering your attention longer and longer to the ocean. It becomes a mirror, but not of you, of like that deeper place that I was referring to e- before that I just call Source. But that place where these messages come from, where the, the subtle messages, the subtle body, the subtle energies come from. Mm-hmm. And that’s the place where we’re all connected, and you have to have a connection to have communication, right? This is what we’re talking about is communication. And to have true communication, you have to have connection. You have to be at that place where you feel... Like, even thinking about, like, communication within our own species. we can talk, and we can have banter, ... But to have communication, you have to have... You have to feel safe. You have to f- feel like you’re safe with this person. Like, you, you have to feel like you want to share something intimate with them- Mm-hmm ... which means you feel this connection. And I love that, like you called out earlier, of we can’t demand connection from... Like, if you’ve never tried to connect to the ocean or the trees, it’s like trying to connect to a stranger. Yeah. So you have to have that sustained attention to build a connection. Christina: Totally. Or also just, like, sustained attention also may be repeated visits or- Yeah. ... you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, even just thinking of the nuts and bolts of, like, these... Like, the bodies of water that are near me, I’m in relationship because I’m... I’m in relationship with them because I’m there often- Yeah ... and I am meeting them every time. And like literally addressing them- Mm-hmm ... even just in my thoughts. Um- Becky: And it’s it has to be such a conscious act- Yes because if you go on autopilot, the places that you visit often will actually become the least familiar- Mm ... because you stop looking. Christina: Mm. That’s something that’s important for you to say, ‘cause that’s... I, I wouldn’t even think that. But it’s true. Becky: It is true. Christina: It’s true. Yeah. Um, yeah. It is very true. And I was also gonna say that, when I... Like, I love using the pause, even when I’m in these repeated visits to these places. Even, you know, it’s, it is, it is often, like, arrive and, like, “Hey,” or, like, even I will say hi to the birds that go by. I learn the names of things and address them as, as their names. But then even just to, like, really connect, it doesn’t take long. You can literally just take a breath, and I like to take a breath and imagine speaking from an open heart, and then that has a different energy, and it actually doesn’t take that much extra time to, like, center myself first before recognizing this place as a holy place or- Mm-hmm ... a sentient place. I’m, I’m reading this book, Mother Creature Kin, that, Jenny gave to me. It’s a f- by a friend of hers. It’s so good so far, but sh- last night, knowing that we were gonna have this conversation, um, there’s this quote that I want to read, and I think it makes sense to where we are right now. Um, so yeah. Sh- it says, “’There are no privileged locations,’ writes Scott Russell Sanders. ‘If you stay put, your place may become a holy center, not because it gives you special access to the divine, but because in your stillness, you hear what might be heard anywhere. All there is to see can be seen from anywhere in the universe if you know how to look, and the influence of the entire universe converges on every spot.’” Becky: So you know my favorite fact about the universe, right? Uh-huh. That there is no center of the universe. Mm. And at the same time, every single point in the universe is the center of the universe. It’s so true. It’s so true. So good. I mean, it’s like that William Blake pro- poem, right? It’s like, “To see the world... To see a world in a grain of sand- ... Becky: and a heaven in a wild flower. Hold infinity in the palm of your hand and eternity in an hour.” It’s like the fractals of, like, in any point you look, any point contains the entire universe if you look closely. Christina: Yes. Becky: And it also made me, like, flash to these, holy sites and these- Mm ... special sites that we’ve deemed on this planet. If you visit any of them- They’re, like, overrun with people, and, like, they’ve turned into... I mean, I haven’t been to every single one, and I’m sure there’s plenty, but, like, a lot of the ones I’ve been to, it feels, it feels very less than holy. Christina: Mm. Becky: You know? And it’s a good reminder that it’s not these special places. It’s literally everywhere. Christina: Everywhere. Becky: You just have to look. Christina: This is like... Yes, the holy ordinary. Mm. This is what Kate and Jenny and I talk about all the time, the holy ordinary, the, the, like, spiritual mundane, the... All the things. Like, it’s all, it’s all right here. Becky: Mm. Christina: And once... This is what’s so cool about talking to the land or, like, being in reciprocal communication with a tree in your backyard. Once you really understand that, like, in your entire being, also realizing that you are this holy center of the universe too- Mm once you realize this about all things, it connects you to all things in a way that is pretty limitless. Mm. And then everything is illuminated. Like, life becomes even more magical because you don’t have to aspire to it. You just learn to recognize it in everything that surrounds you. Becky: Yeah. It’s such a powerful antidote to everything that, that’s m- feels like it’s making the world so harmful and, like, when I look at these systems of crum- uh, that are hopefully crumbling, that hopefully we’re witnessing the crumbling of, it’s a concentration of energy, right? Mm-hmm. It’s a concentration of resources, which is just energy, a concentration of attention if we think about, like, the way we’ve turned politics into celebrity, and, like, it focused all of this attention on these- Units. We’ll just call them units. Christina: I was thinking points. Yeah, I get Becky: it. Points, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. And if we think about like, you know, what shifts that, like taking power back to the people, it’s also like taking your attention back and putting it back on e- all the points. Totally. It’s redistribution of energy in a way that you can actual- you, the general you, can actually do on a moment-by-moment basis. Like, it feels like something, if you’re feeling overwhelmed with the state of the world, there’s so many very practical things you can do, yes, and take back your attention moment by moment. Christina: Mm-hmm. Becky: And re-distribute that energy. Christina: Yeah. It’s really nice to realize,... Like, there are so many ways that you could view where we are right now, one of which is that it’s nice to Realize that there’s a lot of loud, fast distraction- Becky: Yeah ... Christina: everywhere. And if you want to check in with the subtle body, with the more nuanced everyday magic, you can because it’s everywhere. The- Yeah ... all of this loud stuff is just a massive distraction from it. Yeah. And, so it feels like a strange time to turn inward and be slow maybe to many. But it’s such a wellspring there. Becky: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ... I feel like we are being called into, uh, very, mm, unexpected ways of growth and change. You hear the language of “everything’s broken, the systems are broken”, so that metaphor gets you in this fix. Well, we have to fix it. We have to fix it. Well, fix it means, like, return it to what it was before, and that’s not... I don’t think that’s what we’re being invited into. I think we’re being invited into birthing something completely different and new. Yeah. And Christina: like- Becky: Which is a different orientation ... Christina: yes. It, it is- Yeah ... a different orientation, and I was gonna say, who better to listen to than nature that has to adapt and has always adapted? Yeah. Or learned that it might be its time to go. I don’t know. I think about that a lot lately , as more of my friends are learning to talk to trees and things. W- like, I actually hope that we can glean wisdom from things that have been here far longer than we have. Becky: That’s what I was thinking is, like, we’re listening to our elders. Christina: Yes. Becky: Like, we are such a young species, yet we have the hubris to think that we are the most advanced. And yet it’s our own ignorance, our own m- it’s a reflection of our childlike nature that we think we know, because we don’t know. I mean, I just... We’re starting to learn, but, like, I just saw a clip, um, from a podcast. I haven’t finished the podcast yet, but they were talking about they’re pretty sure that Venus flytraps can do math. Christina: Whoa ... Becky: so it’s like- it’s, it’s just such an arrogant stance to think these beings are less than us or less intelligent. They are far older and wiser than we will ever be. Yes. And that is who we should be listening to. Because the Earth is going to be fine. It’s us trying to figure out how do we survive- Christina: Mm-hmm ... Becky: on this planet. Well, listen to the ones that have been here for millennia. Christina: Totally. There, even in this book that I’m reading, last night I was reading a, a essay about how there were this entire bird population, in the Midwest was supposed to migrate at a certain time, but they actually migrated, they actually migrated early, but then came back. So, like, their- Hmm ... entire population except for, like, 5% disappeared very early. But then there was this massive storm that would have killed them all if they had stayed. So then they came back after the storm was gone because all of these people who were paying attention to them realized, oh, they could actually hear the storm coming from so much further away, and so they knew what they needed to do, and then they came back. Becky: Yeah. Christina: So cool. Becky: They’re d- they are listening. Like- They’re listening ... the beings are listening. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, it’s... Those are the, the ones we should be listening to- Mm ... because we’re about to destroy ourselves, not the Earth. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause they’re all talking and figuring out a way. Christina: Yep. Yep, they are. Becky: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s so empowering, like, to think that... I, I guess I like, I always like to connect it to, you know- an even deeper why of like, why should people communicate with trees? You know, why should people listen to it? And it’s like there’s a lot of reasons, especially if you’re feeling overwhelmed or, uh, at a loss of what to do right now. this is something you can do. And it, it’s not just you talking to trees. It’s you joining a wave, a wave of other people who are choosing consciously to listen to our elders. And in that wave, there will be change. Christina: Mm-hmm. I mean, before industrialization, I’m sure that way more people were listening to trees. Becky: 100%. Christina: Yeah. This is not new. No. I think it’s just returning. Becky: It is. It’s returning. Well, this, you know my obsession with spirals. It’s like we’re returning to, not to exactly where we were, but from a new vantage point, where it’s- Mm-hmm ... like now we can engage at a, at a more... I mean, this is my theory of the evolution of, of human consciousness. It’s, it’s we evolved in these small pockets, right? Like indigenous populations evolved to have connection with the Earth, to live in reciprocity. And then we just keep expanding out, right? And then it’s- Mm ... you know. And, and through violent, horrible ways, you know. Just like a, a child or a toddler will destroy everything around them as they’re learning to walk and learning how to be in the world, and I don’t mean to diminish the harm in using that analogy, but that’s, as I zoom out to the, most cosmic time level. So then we expand to countries, and I think we’re being invited to expand and to grow into a planetary species. Christina: Mm-hmm. Becky: And it won’t happen in our lifetime. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah. So it’s a return, but from an expanded- reference point of connection with the universe. Christina: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the internet has allowed us all to witness each other at a much grander scale than we ever got to, and that’s been hard. Becky: Yeah. But also, I- so I was thinking about this this morning. It flashed into my mind. So Bisan, who’s been, instrumental in reporting, uh, what was happening in Gaza, right? Mm. Which is still happening. And it, it occurred to me today that she can see on the data on her phone the r- the response from the world, right? Like, as the attention, waxes and wanes on what’s happening there. She can see that on her phone. And then I thought, that means we have the technology... Like, the technology isn’t good or bad, right? If the technology were in the hands of people who are incentivized towards greater peace and empathy and, sustainability and equity, they could use those tools and say, “Oh, there’s, there’s a, there’s suffering happening in Gaza, and not enough people are, are giving their energy and their attention towards it. So let’s start boosting that. You know, let’s start...” Christina: Mm-hmm. Becky: Like, we have these tools to, to connect us. Like, it’s so silly, but Facebook’s, mission was to connect the world. So it’s not the technology, it’s, it’s the incentives. So the more of us individually... Like, Meta’s never gonna change their incentives. Yeah. But if we all collectively change the incentives and where we direct our energy in our own lives, then there’s a powerful collective wave- Christina: I feel that it’s happening Becky: Totally Christina: It, again, it’s a more nuanced, subtler Wave. It’s not what you see all day, you know? Becky: Yeah. Christina: Um, yes. Yes. Becky: And it’s also, as we’ve said so many times, it’s coming through you as you, so it looks different to every single person. I was having this conversation with Allison the other day, um, who is the gallery owner where your show was. And she was talking about some, some awakening that was happening in her life, and if you look at just your own individual life, it could be seen as “Oh, this isn’t... This is insignificant,” or, “This isn’t important enough to... Why should I be focusing on this?” But as I was listening to her, I was hearing the same thing that you’re awakening to, that I’m awakening to, that all these people are awakening to. So it’s like if everyone goes to a protest, it looks the same, right? But this is so subtle. You have to recognize and trust that what’s coming through you as you is part of the wave- Yes even though it looks different. Christina: Beautiful. So that sort of brings it full circle to me, because when I was on Norton Island, and I was speaking to the island, and I was having this patience and all of these things, I, obviously I think of through you, as you all the time because of our conversations here, and this podcast serves as a really nourishing point for us to discuss all of this stuff, and like really return back to the understanding that these things are happening. It’s important to talk about them. We’re all sort of doing this together, and things are coming to us, through us, as us. So in that, I would love to close our first episode of season two with something that came through to me on Norton Island. And it was something that I shared with everybody, and I invited them to close their eyes. So I will invite everyone to do that. Imagine standing in a jar of light, suspended in time somewhere, floating in darkness. Fireflies swim with you, unexplainable magic. Each time you blink, you open your eyes and remember awe, wonder. You feel the holy atmosphere that fills the nourishing air. It collects effervescent along the edges of your skin, showing you the felt scrim between the edge of you and the beginning of everything. A thicket of luminescence begins to form at your feet, rooted deeply in benevolence like an anchor. It wraps your toes in golden lines of concentrated air. You are woven into wonder. It is without a doubt. Logic falls away, worry too. Fear is rinsed clean by a phosphorescent tide. What is this magic, you think? But your thoughts empty too. Flow down the golden cord that tethers you to all there is. You are both a vessel and a sieve. And then, what if the world offers itself to me, and I offer myself back? That thought stays. It returns like light does. The music was recorded live as a part of the sound service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece, is playing bass clarinet, and Tomás Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing. There is 100% magic in Maine. Also, I love that you’re just casually having a chat with a tree, because now apparently you do that. Isn’t it amazing how they really do speak to you if you just, like, trust what you hear? I love it This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit noticingpod.substack.com (https://noticingpod.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1)

3. 

   24 Jul 2026

   BONUS EPISODE: Receive Your Kids - Christina's Convo on Chasing Excellence

   This bonus episode is from Christina’s cousin Pat’s podcast, Chasing Excellence (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/chasing-excellence/id1170629044). A big thank you to Pat for offering us the audio free of ads. We hope you enjoy! Chasing Excellence Raise | Receive Your Kids - Don’t Just Shape Them (w/ Christina Watka) What if raising a child well means releasing your vision of who they’re supposed to become — and learning instead to see who they actually are? Patrick is joined this week by Christina Watka, an installation artist whose entire practice is built around entering a space without a plan, noticing what’s there, and letting the work lead. In this Raise episode, they explore how that same artistic openness transforms the way you parent: the role of noticing, the power of solitude, and what it means to receive your children instead of trying to shape them. Episode Transcript Christina: Hey, I just walked down to the farm to get some wine, and they had peaches. Now I’m walking up the street with wine in my bag and a peach in my hand. One peach, just for me. So good. But I wanted to tell you just a thought. I, I was telling my cousin Pat that we’re starting this podcast, and it’s based on the voice memos that we sort of would exchange. And he was like, “Oh my God.” He has a very successful podcast right now, and that’s not why I was telling him. He’s just someone I... I was like, he’s a, just a great person to talk shop with, and he was like, “Don’t sleep on the idea of actually doing a podcast with voice memos.” And I think he thought that I meant that the podcast was just a bunch of compiled voice memos. And he was like, “That’s the idea I’ve had. It’s a really good idea. You should totally do it.” And I wonder, it’s kind of an interesting thought, what, what it’d sound like to have, like, one episode just be our voice memos back and forth. You know? Interesting. Um Kind of like nice to have like the ambient sounds I’m hearing right now behind my voice, you know? Like the clanking of my wine bottles, the breeze, the crickets, my peach. Well, I love you. I love you. Becky: Welcome to Noticing, A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. Christina and I are still on break, and while we’re out enjoying all that Maine summer has to offer, we thought we would leave you with a little bonus. So in this episode is a conversation that Christina had with her cousin Patrick on his podcast, Chasing Excellence, as a part of his Raise series. In this conversation, they talk about noticing the life of an artist and what it’s like to receive your kids, not just shape them. So we hope you enjoy Patrick: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Chasing Excellence. I am Patrick. I am here. I’m joined by somebody I’m very excited to talk to because she is my cousin. I’m joined by, uh, Christina Watka. How are you, Christina? Christina: I am great. How are you? Patrick: I’m so good. I’m so excited to talk to you. This is another episode of our Raise series, and our Raise series and whe- is when I have conversations with folks, uh, similar to conversations we often have here on the show, but just bent a little bit towards our roles as parents or teachers or coaches or guides to young people. And so we have similar conversations that we often do. I just like to kind of point us in the direction of that particular role that we have in our lives, and I’m really excited to talk to you about this. I want to start with a little bit of background as to who you are, ‘cause I think it’s gonna provide enough context as to why I wanted to talk to you about this particular thing. So can you please tell us what an installation artist is, so that we can understand it enough so that we can understand a conversation about, that we’re going to have about how to raise our kids as though they were art projects? But first, what is an installation artist? Christina: Great question. An installation artist is a newer art form, and I like to talk about it in the sense that I, as an artist, prefer to walk into spaces and deliver my artwork and change the essence of the room. So I work in my studio, where I’m recording with you now, to make a lot of different small pieces that I weave together in a space so that it would never feel exactly the same in a different space. So it’s a lot of little things coming together to create one larger thing, and it oftentimes can play with your senses. So obviously, artwork is playing with your sense of sight, but installations can include smells, sound, lots of different things. So it’s environmental and spatial like that, and different than sculpture in that it’s not something I could just put in a box and mail somewhere and have it look the way it looked here. Patrick: Got it. So folks will bring you in to either... I know you’ve done work in hotels and in, in personal residences. You’ve also done some outside installations. Can you just give a little bit of the mechanics of, like, how one is and becomes a installation artist? Christina: Well, I have a theater minor. Going back to college days- I was always interested in, in experiencing spaces. I’m also the kid who rearranged her room every month to feel the energy shift. So I think, yeah, I think installation art just brings a completely different perspective. I have installed in, in lots of different places. Nowadays, people are thinking really differently about the architecture of spaces and the way they feel, so having an installation artist could be a really wonderful thing for, say, a curved stairwell where a four-by-six painting wouldn’t really work. I’m also someone who makes work that interacts with light, and so that is the quality of the air and the surrounding environment that I am attuning myself to when I go somewhere to install. Patrick: Mm-hmm. We will continue to talk about what it means to be an artist, I think, as we get through this conversation. That’s why I’m really excited to talk to you, ‘cause I don’t know that a lot of folks know personally somebody who is in any way one might use the definition an artist. I think a lot of people are artistic, but I think you’ve carved out this wonderful existence where you are, you both get to be artistic and an artist in the sense of that’s what you do for a living. That’s what you do when you, when you sit down to work, you are an artist. And so really excited to talk about that perspective because I think it’s, it’s relatively rare and incredibly valuable when it comes to, again, our role as parents or again, coaches, teachers, et cetera. So here’s what I’d love to do I wrote a note to myself. This was probably a few years ago now, and I remember writing it after getting to spend a little bit of time with you and your kids. And just for context, your kid, you’ve got an older son and two twin daughters, and they are almost exactly, almost exactly the age of my two kids. Like, they... It was rather funny. And so you and I, when we get to spend time together, I get to see how you and your husband Andrew parent, and it is always really inspiring to me to get to hang out with you and to get to see not only how you work, but also how you bring that artist mentality to mothering and to parenting. And so again, I wrote this to myself. This was just a note that I wrote to myself, and when I started this Raise series, I remembered the note, and I knew that I wanted to talk to you about it. And so this is kind of gonna be the basis of our conversation, uh, from here. So this is what I wrote to myself. “Raising a child is like raising an art project. You have a sense of things at the start, some ideas, some experience, some expectations. A bad artist would then spend years trying to keep the art project as closely aligned with that initial vision as possible, fighting tooth and nail to rein it in to make it what it’s supposed to be. But an evolved artist knows that the art project leads and the artist follows. Experience, intuition, intention, effort all still matter, but they are put where they belong, with the flow of the child, not with the flow of the parent. I don’t have two children. I have two art projects.” And so I would love for you maybe just to respond to that generally, and we’ll take that response, and then we’ll kinda have some fun with it. Christina: I love hearing the context of that quote. You sent it to me earlier, but I didn’t realize that it came after a visit. The first thing that I’m thinking actually is I come from two wonderful parents who thought of themselves as guides for my two siblings and I. So I think I lucked out in the parent department where I was encouraged to express myself in ways that felt true. They are not artists. One, my dad was in the military. He was a Marine, and my mom was a s- was a nurse. So, and they were just both aware that everyone is different and your children are not necessarily something that needs to be defined by you. Even to this day, they talk about how they did their best to guide us and really lucked out with what happened because we’re all living lives that we feel proud of, that we feel are in alignment with our values and our authenticity. But I say that first because I believe, I think I pushed it even further. I had my own kids and I met them I’m someone who didn’t even find out who they were until they were born, including twins, which everyone got so mad at me for not being able to tell them names I had, how their rooms were designed already, what I thought they were. I intuited some things about them, but I didn’t want to have any preconceived notions of my children until I met them. The same way I don’t want to have preconceived notions about people before I meet them. I love leading a life through curiosity so that I can have a clean slate as often as possible. And to me, that’s very much what an artist can be, should be maybe I would even say, is someone who’s just looking with an open heart and is willing to see what’s in front of them and meet that person. The whole parenting thing, a lot of times, generations before us, generations that preceded us, I often look at them and think that they were trying to put their kids in boxes that they believed they fit in. And as soon as I became a parent, it was so clear that that was not my job. You know, my job, I think I, at the end of the day, I believe I will have done a good job if I have been able to meet my children where they are honestly throughout their lives, which is a practice. Patrick: It strikes me as there’s some interesting parallels, ‘cause I know enough about how you work t- to have a sense of things. But it strikes me that there’s an interesting parallel between your work as an installation artist, and you, you alluded to this already in what you just said about, like, I wasn’t going to meet my kids until they arrived. And it’s, it’s that we can say, “Okay, Christina, can you please come install in my, you know, the new house that I’m doing?” And without knowing more, you’d think, “Yeah, okay, Christina can go. She’ll just show up and she’ll do her thing.” But actually, what you do is you have to go into the space and you have to say, “Okay, I’m bringing my art to this space. That’s why you’ve brought me in here. But until I’m in the space, until I see what the light does, until I understand where maybe the movement of air goes, I can’t tell you like, ‘Oh, it’s gonna go over there, it’s gonna go here, it’s gonna be seven feet big or seven feet wide,’ or whatever it is.” And so there’s that, that lack of judgment until the moment where you have enough understanding where you can then respond to the environment or to the individual, right? So it’s n- it’s, it’s holding back the sense of I know what to do here until you actually know what to do there. Christina: Mm-hmm. It’s also releasing the expectation that there’s only one way. Patrick: Hmm. Hmm, I love that. Yep. Mm-hmm. Christina: That is something I think about all the time. What I do is I believe in my tools I believe in myself. I come centered in a place in myself where I believe I can walk into a space and respond to it, and I trust the process enough. I bring more than I need so that I’m never making a decision for the work that comes from a place of lack, and I respond to where I am. And it’s very much like parenting. It’s very much like raising a kid. So I used to... When I was in art school, I am the oldest daughter of three daughters, and I am an artist, but I’m also very type A. So my journey, and I include parent, parenting in that, has been that I would find the correct way to do something, and I would have lists that I would cross off, and I would be able to do it all just as I planned. And that helped me a lot in life until it didn’t. And parenting is such a beautiful way to realize how little control you actually have in your life. But there was one particular instance in art school, in sculpture. I was in a sculpture class, and the teacher was really... She was really hard. I butt up against her so often, and I’m so grateful for it, and we’re still in touch. We were actually texting two days ago. And I had a thesis. It was my biggest project, the last project of my program, and I was really proud of it. And basically, without having to explain all of it, I had these shirts that I had sort of glued as, like, a wallpaper, a three-dimensional wallpaper. And I did it. I executed it to exactly what I thought it was gonna be. It looked just like I expected it to be, and I was like, “I am done.” Like, pat myself on the back. “Good job, Christina.” And we had a crit. That’s what you do in art school. You, you talk about what’s in front of you with other people. They give their ideas. You can take them or leave them, whatever. And She picked a particular spot and was like, “Why? This doesn’t feel like it’s free enough, Christina. You just have to...” And as she was talking, she walked up to the wall and pulled some of these shirts off and changed their shape. And some art teachers might think that’s a boo-boo. Like, usually you kinda ask before you actually touch or change something that someone’s made. But she pulled it off, and I was like, “Oh! Oh, don’t... Oh.” And I looked at it, and I was like, “Oh my God, that’s 10,000 times better than my plan.” And that was a singular pivot in my life, where I realized I was actually doing a disservice to the work by being so rigid in my thinking. And I think about that all the time in art, for art’s sake, and also for life’s sake. There’s always another way to get to a result that you want, and it’s really essential that you listen to the work instead of telling it what to do. Listen to the kid instead of telling it what to do. It’s the same. Patrick: Yeah. One of the questions I really like to unpack in these, in this Re series is What should we be modeling ourselves for our kids with the, uh, the understanding that what we model is by far the most impactful thing that we do as parents, right? Albert Einstein once said, “Example isn’t another way to teach, it is the only way to teach.” And so with that in mind, and with everything kind of the context of you as an artist, like what is it that as an artist you think you are modeling to your kids, both again, uh, in the work itself, but then in, in life more generally, right? You talked about the, the practice of meeting people where they are. We’ve talked a little bit about responding to the space and not, not before you understand what the space is. Like, what is it as an artist that you think is, for those of us who aren’t artists or for folks who aren’t artists, like what is it that we can learn from an artist that we can then do our best to try to model ourselves? Christina: I’m glad that you gave me this question before we had this conversation because I had a minute to think about, think about it, ‘cause this is a big question, and modeling is... It really is how, how kids learn, how we all learn. The thing that I really came to was practicing presence and listening to the world. Mary Oliver talks about listening to the world. I don’t know if any of your listeners are real poetry fans, but Mary Oliver, she talks about listening to the world, and I think about that all the time, and how artists are listening to the world. And what they’re doing, I believe, what we are doing, is listening to the world, listening to ourselves, and filtering the world through ourselves and expressing it with the gifts that we were given for creative expression. So when I think about what I’m modeling for my kids, I am modeling a way to be present, a way to be open-hearted and awake to what is in front of me through a lens of curiosity And I think that’s something that I see them doing all the time. I mean, we live in, in Maine in an old farmhouse in Cape Elizabeth, which is this beautiful coastal town, and our property is surrounded by nature. And we chose it that way because nature informs my work. It’s a place that I think everyone can find a beautiful mirror to cycles of life, to ways that they function in themselves as well in nature. And there are things that we listen to together here. Just this morning, my daughter and I, when she woke up, she knows she finds me outside on the front porch, and I’m usually looking at the sky or the, counting the flowers that have popped up in front. And I think it’s just all a way of, of being where you are and knowing that you are allowed to listen to the world at a pace that is slow. Patrick: Listening to the world, that seems in direct opposition to some of the things we’ve ta- already talked about, which is rigid thinking and expectations and judgment, right? Like, that’s really hard. It’s really hard to listen to the world. It’s really hard, and I love the example you just gave. It’s really har- um, I, at least for me, it’s really hard for me to sit on the front porch and look at the sky. So how... Like, is it that you are an artist because you’re naturally inclined to an ability, an interest to look at the sky? Or is it that you became an artist, and you realized the value and the beauty that comes when you slow down and when you look at the sky? Christina: I think it may be is a little bit of both. I think I have a natural tendency to that. I was also raised with the permission to be outside with nothing else to do. The town that we live in, I’m learning, is a really athletic-focused town. I was the captain of my high school volley- volleyball team. So, like, I am a multifaceted human being. I don’t just pin myself as an artist only. So there’s value in that. There’s value to being a part of a team. And I think especially for the ages that my kids are, they’re your kids’ ages, 6, 6, and 9, for me, I believe it’s important for them to have slow time. I believe a lot of people that are our age now are remembering how to listen to the world and be able to sit and slowly watch ants crawl across the sidewalk from one side to the other. I mean, I- would that be excruciating for you? Probably, right? Patrick: I don’t know. W- uh, I don’t know It’s interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think that that’s the right question, is like, is that really... Like, how hard would that be? And using that answer as an indication to how much you are listening to the world versus how much noise is distracting you I think that’s interesting. Christina: Another example that just came to my mind, another way you can listen to the world, I mean, you can listen to the world by watching ants move across the ground. You can listen to the world at a soccer game. You can listen to the world with your eyes open. My son, Jack, who is nine and is... He has one speed, and that is fast. That is all in. Patrick: Yep. Christina: He meets life where it is, and the other day we were just going shopping for new summer clothes, and he’s someone who I have intentionally brought him into this practice of listening to the world with me. And we walked by, we were leaving Target, and there was a Target employee who was probably, I don’t know, like a young man, maybe 19 years old, and he was forlorn. We left to go to a deep part of the parking lot and, and I noticed him, and I sent him a little wish for gladness or whatever would help him. And Jack noticed him. And when we got to the car, and this is in the cacophony of a family of five just- ... leaving Target. The girls are like, “Oh my God, my pink ba-da-da-da.” And then Jack said, “Did you notice that man? He seemed very sad.” And there was no effort to solve this man’s problems. It was just Jack noticing somebody, saying what he saw, and then we all thought, “Yeah, I wonder what that could have been about. I hope he has a better day.” So to me, that’s just a way that he is directly relating to the world in front of him with open eyes, and I was so pleased that that happened because I didn’t say, “Hey, did you see that guy?” He saw it. He listened to the world in a way there, too. Patrick: Yep. Do you remember when you started... I mean, you already mentioned it. You went to art school. This has been part of who you are for as long as I’ve known you, and I’ve known you, I think, your entire life. So like- Christina: You have. Patrick: Was there a moment when you were like, “Oh, listening to the world,” like what- however you would have phrased that back then before Mary Oliver gave you the phrase, was that something that you’ve practiced consciously, or is it something that you’ve noticed yourself doing and thought, “This is the path”? Like how much work, I guess, is the question. Like how much work did it take you, or has it taken you, or does it take you to continue to listen to the world without judgment, with curiosity? Again, because the alternative to that is so easy to do, which is to hope that the world listens to you and to put no effort in, in being reciprocal in that practice. Christina: It was cultivated in me. I think it’s a natural tendency. So- The thing that I want to say first is that it took me until my late 30s to realize what a natural tendency this was because the more that I shared my way of being authentically with others through art and other ways, it was mirrored back to me. Life mirrored back to me the fact that I was not like everybody else, that there were more people that might not be listening so deeply, which to me honestly was the greatest permission slip ever to just share my experience more widely. This tendency was cultivated in me as a child by my dad Who I remember, not only did I have ample time outside without distraction, but he would do what I do with my kids now and say, “There’s a summer thunderstorm. We all gotta get out to the porch.” And it was, like, the most important thing we could do together, and we would sit there and count the space between lightning and thunder. We lived all over the United States because he was a Marine for about half of my childhood, so we’d move every one to three years, which meant that oftentimes we were planting ourselves in new landscapes and new environments that were ripe for learning about. And so instead of putting us in all of these activities, we would root in the place together and spend a lot of time being curious about it. And it was so profound to me, and it’s given my life such meaning that I, I do the same thing every day with my own kids. Patrick: Hmm. I don’t think we’ve used this word, but we’re certainly talking around it. Noticing. You actually have a podcast that I love called Noticing, uh, so folks should check that out. Can you talk a little bit about what noticing means, and both how it... What it means to you as a human, but also what it means to you as a mother? What does that look like? Christina: Noticing, to me, is a practice. It’s similar to listening to the world. It’s meeting your life as it is, meeting others as they are, without judgment, without this is good or this is bad, this is right or wrong. It’s simply this is. So when you are in a state of noticing, you are simply seeing things as they are. You might even notice... I notice that I get angry a lot when my twins have back-to-back tantrums for 18 straight months. Maybe that was something that I noticed in my life. It is important... For me, it’s been a beautiful practice of just, of just being with it. Noticing is like being with something. I think as far as, as far as, like, parenting goes, it, it kind of comes back to what we started talking about at the very beginning. I notice who my kids are. I notice how they’re changing. I notice patterns that they might have, and I help them notice their own lives and themselves in the context of their lives as well. Patrick: Noticing Feels like one of those things, especially when you’ve got young kids, that you feel like you don’t have time for. And so I’m really curious how this practice looked, and of course still looks, ‘cause your kids aren’t exactly out of the house. But, like, with the craziness of having twin infants, with the craziness of Jack’s now nine, so he’s of course running all over the place. With the ca- the chaos of everyday life, with the chaos of Andrew working. You know, he’s a EMT and firefighter, so he’s gone out of the house for, you tell me, 24 hours at a time every couple days, right? Like, how... Because to me, that’s the battle. It’s like, yes, in theory I would love to sit and notice, but God, I got so much to do and there’s so much noise, so I can’t. So how have you, like, how do you s- make sure you are continuing to notice in the midst of what can feel like a tornado? Christina: This is a beautiful question, and thank you for fleshing this out, because it is true. Life is cacophonous. My life is cacophonous. It’s all spinning all the time. Noticing is quiet. It is like anything. It’s like a muscle that you can practice working out. Maybe for someone who doesn’t feel like this is a possibility for them, I would encourage to spend, even if you set a, set a timer for five minutes. Five minutes is something that most people can commit to, and you simply exist where you are. It can happen anywhere. Like, I’m sitting right here right now. I could notice the way that my body feels. I could notice different things, different sensations. I could notice where my breath is filling my belly, or is it filling my chest? I notice my dog waking up. There’s so much around us that’s happening all the time, and we right now are in, right now, right here, we are in a society that sort of discourages this type of presence because it’s something that only you can receive, right? To me, noticing often begets peacefulness And like, I can’t... No one can take that from me. Patrick: Mm-hmm. Christina: But it’s not productive, which is difficult in our society to claim something that does not produce anything. Although I could argue that my life spent noticing has produced quite a lot in the form of something tactile and material. I started the process of noticing even though I grew up with it and with parents, mostly my dad, he was the more enthusiastic of this particular thing, this particular practice. Even though I grew up with it, I started really noticing when I had a newborn baby the first time. All of a sudden my Life changed, and I would take Jack at the witching hour, you know, which also corresponded with golden hour at the time that he was a newborn baby. I would strap him on, and we would walk, and I had a dog at the time too, and we would take the dog and just go for a walk on these trails. And I would notice everything because I wouldn’t... I might sing to him or something, but I didn’t have anyone else to talk to. I would just be where I was, and I would notice him settling on my body. I would notice the light dappling and through the trees on the ground. I would notice the birds. I would notice everything around me, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, this has been here this whole time.” And I think a lot of us get to this place at some point. Maybe it’s a midlife crisis that people often find this in, where the tornado of life has brought them to a point, and their nervous systems are a little frenetic, and they feel so fast. The practice of noticing is, it really is, it’s just this quiet invitation that you can take at any moment that you want to. Patrick: And do you feel like that practice is an effort to push away the ego, the push away what can sometimes feel like a sort of automatic selfishness that we have, and instead replace that with even just a neutral perspective? Again, you’ve already said this, but, like, I, I... It’s neither good nor bad, it just is. And I think that when we’re noticing, when we can slow down, what we’re not doing is thinking about ourselves, and I think when we’re not noticing, when we’re doing a, a poor job of slowing down, when we’re doing a poor job of creating the space for us to just notice, what often we replace that with or what we fill that in with is ego, is thinking about ourselves more than we’re thinking about what we are in the midst of or who we are surrounded by. So do you feel like, like, that’s part of the value of this is that it, it turns down the voice of your ego, what I need, what I want, what I think is good, what they’re doing that’s affecting me, and it just turns up the... or really it just turns that down, and what we have in place of that is some degree of silence? That we all ultimately need more of Christina: Mm. I mean, the first thing you said is, like, I think you used the word effort, and I wanted to jump in and be like, “Noticing takes no effort, Matt.” Like, the two words that pop out at me are, like, effort and value, and that to me speaks to the systems that we’re in, actually, and what noticing is sort of the antidote to. When I am in a... the deepest place of noticing, I realize that I am actually just a part of everything. And so you’re think- You’re talking about the ego leaving, and yeah, maybe it’s in service of that. Maybe it’s in service of actually realizing that, that there’s no separation between me and you. There’s no separation between my experience and the s- the experience of, of the tree outside of, of my studio that I can see right now. It sort of levels everything to this very still and kind of acceptable place where you’re just... Everything’s right in front of you, and, and you can... It’s like taking this pause to notice what’s over, what’s around you, and then make a choice, right? Instead of... I think when we’re not in a place of noticing, we are just spinning forward without actually stopping to choose something. It also makes me think about how the practice of noticing can sort of take the peaks and valleys of life and maybe bring them a little bit closer together so that they’re not quite so high and low. For example, both of my grandmothers passed away over the last six months, right? Them that we share. And through this practice of noticing that realistically I’ve been doing for the last nine years but really deeply since we’ve moved here and I’ve been a parent, it feels less massive, I guess, in that I notice someone passing, and I noticed all of the beautiful little things that happened up until that point, and I notice the aftermath, and I notice the way that flowers have seasons of aliveness and endings that then transform into something new. Patrick: Yeah, because noticing is also, sounds sort of obvious, but noticing is also seeing the truth. It’s not hiding from what is in fact right in front of us. It’s not distracting ourselves with something that’s maybe, I don’t know, more comfortable, a little easier to understand, a little easier to comprehend, a little easier to take in. And it’s in fact saying, “Oh, this is what it is.” It’s hard. Sometimes it can be joyful. But again, it’s like, it’s... If I don’t bring judgment to it, whatever it is, if I don’t bring judgment to our grandmother passing, then I can see little moments of joy inside of what is real- a really hard experience. I can also see real true and honest sadness in a way that I wouldn’t if I didn’t let myself get close enough to see the truth of the thing, right? And so I think there’s something really kinda profound about this idea of noticing, ‘cause I think noticing can feel almost, like, removed. Like I’m gonna remove myself from this, and I’m just gonna notice what’s happening as if it were happening over there. But I think one of the things I’m thinking about as, as you talk, and of course we know each other, like I think one of the things that noticing has done for you is that it’s put you in the middle of everything So that you could see it, so that you could feel it, so that you could hear it. And then when y- because you’ve been able to put yourself in the middle of life, you can then, as you talked about before about, like, what an artist is, you can then filter all of that through your perspective and then turn it into something new, which is, in and of itself, what an artist does. Does that make sense? Christina: Beautiful. Patrick: I think that that’s as... You know, thinking about our roles as parents, it’s like noticing as a parent is not changing the child. It’s not changing who we see, but it’s seeing it with enough honesty that we can experience the person. And then to your point, what you- you’ve already said kind of as what your parents did for you, which is like, and then we can guide them as they see, as they emerge into themselves versus I’m gonna point you over there because I think I know what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong when, in fact, we have no idea what right and wrong is. We have no idea what good and bad is. We can have some general understanding or general sense of these things, but as, as that child, as that person, specifically to that person, we don’t know what right and wrong is. And again, if you don’t ever practice the non-judgment, if you don’t ever practice the sitting there and experiencing it all around you, of course, when the kid is struggling or the kid is making a decision or the kid is just becoming who they’re gonna become, you don’t have the skills to be the guide. All you can do is push in the direction you think it, that person should go. You think you already know what the art project is when the art project hasn’t yet emerged Christina: Yeah, exactly. Or the art project is taking an unexpected turn, and you have to see it where it is and realize, “Oh, I need to actually change the way that I’m thinking about this. I can mold this thing to its ultimate form, and we’ll all be better for it.” Patrick: Yeah. Again, ‘cause you said Jack’s nine, the twins are six. How do you talk about what you do to them? Or do you talk to them about what you do at all, and you just let them experience it s- to the degree that they experience it? Christina: Yeah. I mean, we’re both pretty open about what we do. It’s... Lately, I’ve been thinking about being an artist as, as, like, a way of being more than, um, an occupation because so much of my life folds into the experience of creating things with my self, and maybe not myself, but that’s also another conversation. But... And Andrew is a firefighter. He’s a first responder. But he’s also a jazz musician, so we have... Yeah, we have a really creative home, and the wallpaper of our kids’ lives include a lot of unfinished projects that they’re witnessing in many iterations. We welcome them into our processes but also keep them... Like, they also know that our studios are kind of sacred spaces that they can’t just come in and mess around with. We have to kind of be here with them. That was an important boundary we put up because I want my kids to realize, both of us do, we both want them to realize that there’s creative energy and potential kind of all around us at all times, and don’t touch that. You know what I mean? Patrick: Yep. Christina: Like, don’t bring your friends in here and think you can do this. Make sure that I’m with you. Patrick: Yep. Christina: So they’re not, like, totally free range. They have their own studio space in the house that they share, but I think a lot of it is definitely modeling. One thing that I would love to mention too that we do consciously is take time away from family life to nurture our creative centers. Andrew and I do this on purpose. For me, lately, that looks like going away, like, mm, quarterly probably if, if I’m lucky, maybe three or four times a year, where I go into a cabin in the woods, and I take maybe three or four days and nights away. And at first, it was really difficult to explain to them that that’s what I was doing, and that it had nothing to do with them, and it was only me spending time In my own solitude because that matters to me as a parent, me as a partner, me as a friend, me as a creative person. And once I started doing it, Andrew was like, “That sounds amazing.” I was like, “You should do it, too.” So we do that. We do that for each other, and we talk openly about that as an example of how to have a really strong family foundation, ‘cause that is a, a deep, deep focus for us, and still nurture yourself outside of that because I am not only a parent. Patrick: Yeah, I would love to talk to you about solitude a little bit more ‘cause I do think that that’s a really useful layer to this idea of noticing, which is that noticing feels hard, but actually, I think it might be the solitude that feels hard. It’s the solitude that we respond to when we grab our phones in a moment, uh, where we have a minute of peace or a minute of quiet. It’s, it’s why we fill our calendars with things that we don’t really care about, but man, it feels better than sitting at home because, but we’re not being productive at home, so maybe we should go be productive. Maybe we should, we shouldn’t go stare at the sky because there’s laundry to be folded, and there’s, I’m sure, a room that needs to be, to be picked up or groceries that need to be grabbed, right? So solitude feels like this luxury that in some ways we don’t feel like we’ve earned yet, and that when I get all this other stuff done, maybe then I’ll earn some solitude. But what you’re saying is n- no, no, solitude doesn’t come unless you go seek it out. So can you talk a little bit about more, more about that pursuit of solitude as it relates to noticing and as it relates to your ability to show up to your kids, to your husband, to your life as fully as possible? Christina: Like I said, eldest daughter of three, type A, go-getter, and all of a sudden I, I dropped two babies out of my body at the same time in the middle of COVID, at the beginning of COVID. COVID, like March 14th. It was right then. And I was served the thing that would help me meet my limit of things that I could hold. And so it wasn’t like a big crisis or anything. I just noticed myself feeling more frenetic more of the time because all of those things that you just listed pile up And I could handle them until all of a sudden it was just way too much. So I don’t know why I knew to do this. I don’t know how I knew how to do this because I didn’t have, I didn’t have a mother that did this. There was no example of this, but maybe it was just a very strong intuition or something. But I just knew that I had to focus on my solitude. And with newborn babies and a three-year-old in a pandemic, that looked like giving crying people to my partner and going to the beach for an hour to just be completely empty, completely empty myself out so that then I could, at, at the same time, refill myself in that hour. And, and it’s gotten longer and longer. I’ve been able to offer myself more and more. To me, I think about my life as a... If I’m thinking about it in, in, like, the shape of a pyramid, the foundation is actually me. The foundation is not my marriage. The foundation is not my kids. The foundation is my groundedness, where all of those other things play into it, of course, but if I’m not stable, if I’m not coming at the rest of my life from a full cup, everything falters. And so I had to get over the societal, like, whispers of like, “Ooh, that’s so selfish. Ooh, aren’t you a mother? You should probably be doing this.” I had to get over those and realize that actually the most important thing that I can do for everyone in my life, including me, is to make sure that this bottom tier is solid. And for me, that looks like lots of different types of quiet, and solitude is one of them. And that has been so essential for me over the last nine years of being a parent to actually admit to myself that what I need looks different than what was modeled to me from a parenting perspective. And I think as an artist, someone who deeply desires to create things and filter this listening to the world through me, I just have to accept the things that make me feel better are essential. Even this studio, I mean, I’m sitting in this studio, and we built this. You and I were even building our own studios at the same time, Pat. We have so many alignments. But receiving this, and I say it with that word because I had to reframe this experience instead of thinking like, “Oh, have I earned that? Do I need to... Like, should I really take that?” A wise friend of mine said, “Why are you talking about it that way? Why don’t you just talk about it as if you’re receiving it?” And that one-word shift is incredible, and I repeat it often. Like, if you could talk to people and think, what if you could receive your life? How would that look different Than if you were earning it. Like, what are you worthy of receiving? Because I believe we’re all worthy for, to receive the life that we are meant to have so that we can share our gifts as safely and openly and as abundantly as possible. Patrick: I even think there’s something beautiful about the idea of can you receive your children instead of can you, whatever, parent them, usher them, even guide them. Can you just receive them? I think of- Teach them. Christina: Yeah. Patrick: Yeah. Christina: Can you receive? ‘ Patrick: Cause they’re there. They’re in there. They’re fully... They’re becoming, but they’re in there somewhere, and I think the more we can receive who they are, the better we can guide them, the better we can teach them, the better we can be the kind of parent that they need so that when they grow up, they don’t need to figure out who they are. They don’t need to unpack things that were packed for them that they never needed to carry because they, they were never burdened with all of that extra luggage because their... We as parents didn’t say, “Well, you might need this in your bag, so grab that. You might need that, so you might, you might really want this red shirt,” right? And then at one point they’re gonna wake up and they’re, “I got all this stuff.” And either I can keep trying to drag them along, which I think is what most, most people do, or they can say, “All right. I’ve gotta unpack all this stuff.” And so I think that’s what I’ve been thinking a lot about, and it’s why this series is what it is. It’s like how do I pack only the essential things for my kids so that when they are ready to do their own packing, when they are ready to go out into the world, they have what they need, but they don’t have so much stuff that they then need to get everything out of the bag and figure out, like, what is good, what is real, what is signal, who am I, and then start to put the pieces back together. I think that that’s... Just the idea of, like, receiving your children I think is a way to get to that, again, to that, to helping that person become... Or pu- putting them in that position versus the inverse, which is like, “I got too much stuff and I don’t know how to keep on moving.” Christina: Yes. The word receiving is so much more of a passive experience. I’m thinking when you said receiving your children, I’m thinking even of the image of, like, when you receive something, you extend a hand that is open and something goes in it. I receive this. It’s placed in my hand. If you’re trying to pull something along, it’s closed, and the act of opening a hand and having something that you receive in that hand, I mean, just, just imagine how much more opportunity it has to become whatever it’s meant to become. Like, it can take form in an open hand versus a closed, let’s go, pulling hand. Receiving children is such a beautiful thought. I’ve never thought of it like that. I’ve experienced it that way, but I’ve never spoken it like that. It’s a gift. Your kids are... I believe kids choose their parents in like a cosmic way. But if you think about that, like I’m receiving my life, which includes receiving these children and the opportunity to learn from them while they hold a mirror to me so that I can notice the things that I want to change, move forward with, all of this, it’s so beautiful. I love being a parent. I love being an artist. It’s the most... Parenting to me feels like the most creative thing in the world. Patrick: Yep. I completely agree. Last question. I would love to just stick on the solitude one- for just one more minute, ‘cause I would love your advice, because I th- this is, you know, I think you’ve used the word practice a, a bunch in this conversation, which is the right word, and I think it’s worth recognizing, like, what that word means. And so I would love your advice on, in these moments of solitude, which I think solitude is the precursor to really noticing, and noticing is the precursor to receiving, roughly speaking. And again, like w- like I said before, like, the solitude I think can feel really hard, because when it’s quiet, when we’re not in the midst of doing something else, when we don’t distract ourselves with our phones or, or something else, the voices sort of bubble up. And so can you... Any advice you might have for us as to what you do in those moments of solitude, whether it’s the full weekend away, whether it’s an hour at the beach, and everything in between. How do you make su- Like, what are you doing in between your ears to make sure you return to life, whether it’s work or kids or, or Andrew, and you’ve actually, you have in fact filled yourself up and not just made yourself more anxious because you spent the last hour thinking about, “I gotta do the laundry, I gotta go grocery shopping, I’ve gotta respond to this email, and blah, blah, blah.” Right? ‘Cause I could also see that being the result of, “I’m gonna go take an hour walk and I’m gonna try to stare at the sky,” and you come back from that hour and you think, “Not only am I now an hour behind, but I’ve remembered the 17 things that haven’t been done yet.” So just, like, any advice you have to make that solitude generative, I think would be a great place to wrap up. Christina: Yeah. I think of it in terms of, like, if it’s hard for you to actually empty your mind, which I understand that that’s hard for most people, you can think of it in, in sensory ways. What do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel? And then that, that puts you in your body in the moment. And then also recognize that part of it is that your mind is gonna keep spinning until you practice enough of just noticing your thoughts versus judging your thoughts. Like, a friend of mine taught me, like, “Hi, thought.” You can just notice them, and oftentimes they’ll get They’ll get quiet once they’re noticed. It’s like a kid. “Mom, Mom, Mom.” “Hi.” “Okay. We’re good.” Patrick: Just wanted the acknowledgement. Christina: Yes, you just wanna be acknowledged. The thoughts just wanna be acknowledged, right? So, like, I think just acknowledging them, noticing them, and, like, realizing that you’re gonna have to continue practicing letting them fall away. Also, allowing yourself the permission to follow the whims of whatever might occur to you. So I can think of an example of a time where I was at an artist residency in California, and I had one destination that I would go to every day. This was a luxury of time, five days that I was there. So I had one thing to do every day, and the rest of it, I would just follow my curiosity. Like, there’s a farm stand over there, and it says this. Maybe I’ll go see what that’s about. And just remember that ultimately you’re promising to yourself that, that, like, the other stuff can wait. Grandma always said, it’s a great place to end, but the cobwebs can wait. They can. They will. They’ll be there. The list will always be there. Patrick: Spot on. If folks were curious about actually seeing the work you do, christinawalko.com, is that the best place to point them? Christina: Perfect. Yep. Uh, Instagram, I, I still spend some time on there, and then we have The Noticing podcast now, too, yeah. Patrick: Yeah, I definitely recommend The Noticing. If you like this conversation, definitely check out The Noticing podcast. I adore you. Thank you so much. I’m sad that we did this remotely because, as you mentioned, we, we aren’t actually that far from each other, but the chaos of life kept us apart. But, uh, I do, I look forward to seeing you soon. Christina: Thanks, Pat. Love you, too. Patrick: Thank you Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the sound service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece, is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Siler are singing Becky: Hello, my dear friend. I just finished the episode, with Pat, and it was so good. I really, really loved it. So clear And yeah, we should definitely share it. Absolutely. It’s so in alignment, as I knew it would be. Um, I really loved hi- what... I mean, I loved all of it, but I, at the end, I don’t even have kids, but the way he was talking about packing your kid’s, uh, backpack like, packing it with just the essentials was so powerful because I think about, like, all the things or, or I think about all the adults that I know that have so much work to do to, to sift through their own backpacks, you know? Of like, what were they given, because so many of us were given so much, uh, from our parents that don’t belong in our packs, you know? I just thought it was such a good metaphor. Um, I also love... I l- I just love life. I, I’m so grateful to be at this point in my life and, and for everything along the way. I’m so grateful for all of it. Um, anyway, this is long enough already. I love you. I love you so much This is a public episode. 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Contact Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time

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