Pretty Psych

About Pretty Psych

Megan Owen, from Mountain City Christian Counseling, discusses deconstruction and deep, (often uncharted) psychology. Raw and rough, at times. Also, pretty fascinating, pretty amazing, pretty intelligent… We are Pretty Psych!

Publisher

Mountain City Christian Counseling

Category

health & fitness

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

28 Dec 2022

Latest episode

6 Oct 2026

Latest episodes

35 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   6 Oct 2026

   When Leaving Isn’t the End: Coercive Control, Custody & Family Court - with Sarah McDugal

   Key Takeaways: Sarah McDugal, High-conflict Custody + Co-parenting Coach and Founder of FREEDOM Navigator and Wilderness to WILD, joins Megan in discussing coercive control, custody and family court. They discuss the significant challenges survivors of coercive control face when co-parenting with a high conflict co-parent. Notable Quotes: "So coercive control is an intentional, ongoing pattern of behavior used by one person to exert power, dominance and control over another in an intimate or family relationship, and the main goal of coercive control is to strip away the other person's freedom - their autonomy, their independence - to make them completely dependent on the coercive controller (the abuser)... It's like death by a thousand cuts." — Sarah McDugal "Something like 95% of divorce and custody cases never make it to court." — Sarah McDugal "You have all this history, and you have all this fear for the future, and all this sadness, and all of this, and then you tell your client, okay, this judge is going to thin slice you. You have five minutes... so let's perfect it." — Megan Owen "Nobody's probably told you that custody evaluators and parenting evaluators are actually taught in their training to view moms that don't do anything outside of their children, where parenting is their sole identity, their primary identity, to view those moms as enmeshed, and as, illegitimately, a danger to their kids. They are taught to assess that." — Sarah McDugal "I have battled cancer. I have been in a car wreck that left me with a traumatic brain injury that took me six months to heal from, and I still have issues from it today. I nearly died with two pregnancies. I have multiple autoimmune issues. I've lived in the mission field... and I would still say... the hardest thing is healing while co-parenting with someone who made you terrified for your life." — Sarah McDugal Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com (http://mountaincitychristiancounseling.com/) Sarah McDugal, MSA-ID, MCPC // Author | Speaker | Clarity + Strategy Coach: http://www.wildernesstoWILD.com (http://www.wildernesstowild.com/) Freedom Navigator Self-Assessment: The High-Conflict Case Risk-Index (HCC-RI) (https://www.myfreedomnavigator.com/divorce-high-conflict) The Online Danger & Lethality Assessment with Johns Hopkins: The Danger Assessment (https://www.dangerassessment.org/DATools.aspx)

2. 

   17 Jul 2026

   Raising Whole Men: A Better Story About Masculinity, Sexuality, and Healing Part 2—With Sam Jolman

   Key Takeaways: Sam Jolman, author of The Sex Talk You Never Got, joins Megan in discussing men's and young adult's sexuality. They discuss culture and how to approach difficult topics with sons. Notable Quotes: "It's awkward for everyone, you know, even me with my sons. And so just to start with that normalization of like, this is just a sacred part of us. And most of us come from a lot of sexual neglect, meaning like we haven't had a lot of sexual formation that was healthy or innocent and blessed, you know, a message of blessing." — Sam Jolman "Intimacy is all the levels. It's everything and wow... Sex is not intimacy. Intimacy is not sex, but sex is part of a wide array of intimacy." — Megan Owen "Her [Peggy Orenstein] one sentence conclusion, which I thought was powerful, was when it comes to sex for women, she would say they need to learn to connect to their bodies and men need to learn to connect to their hearts." — Sam Jolman "So just understanding the vicious culture among men, and you're going to be left out. If you decide you're going to be a tender hearted man, unless you find good friends... so just understanding your son will be left out. And I hate that." — Sam Jolman Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com (http://mountaincitychristiancounseling.com/) Sam Jolman: Sam Jolman | Therapist & Author (https://www.samjolman.com/) The Sex Talk You Never Got: The Sex Talk You Never Got by Sam Jolman (https://www.samjolman.com/the-sex-talk-you-never-got-book/) MEGAN: (0:03) This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. (1:10) Yes, thank you. This is just so helpful, and I'm hearing you say that if your son is coming to you, mom or dad, that's amazing that he's trusting you, that he knows that you're safe, and that he knows that he can get help with you. He's looking for help, and so when they come, you're saying instead of just setting up the roadblocks and the restrictions, which that's good, that's important because our kids need to know that we're safely placing boundaries around them because we love them, but just for some language, I think if I were to give practical language for what you just gave us, it would be something along the lines of, son, I'm so glad that you're sharing this with me and that you trust me to receive this. I love you so much. This doesn't change how I feel about you. I want to help you with this. I didn't know this was happening, so I couldn't help you. Now I know this is happening, and I want to help you with this, so let's do this together, and that's maybe a good start, you think, for then taking those beautiful steps that you've just outlined for us. SAM: (2:29) Yes, and I know some parents actually reward their kids for having told. MEGAN: (2:36) Oh, interesting. SAM: (2:37) I know, meaning like, I'm so proud of you, and this is so brave that you've let me into your journey, and so reward meaning like your words of blessing to their bravery, and there's a difference between if it's an ongoing habit versus we've told our sons. I have three sons myself coming of age, so an almost 15-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a 9-year-old, so we've told our sons really with anything in the realm of sexuality, like if you invite us in, if you tell us stuff that happens, thank you, and we're going to take you to ice cream, so they know like. MEGAN: (3:21) Oh, I love that, yeah. SAM: (3:23) Yeah, and because the other thing I'd want you to know is that the realm of evil wants your son to bury their sexuality in shame, and then get stuck in the sin-shame cycle. I feel shame, and I hide, and I live in secrets and silence, which only furthers my pull to go self-soothe because I've invited nobody in, and so the fact that they're breaking it is against even the realm of evil, so trying to fight those messages of shame of something must be perverted about me that I'm drawn to this, something must be wrong with me that I was curious. I had parents, and they've given me permission to share this story. Their 14-year-old son did that very thing, say to them, “Mom, Dad, I need to let you know I've been looking at pornography for a few months, and I'm so scared. Help me.” They had no idea he had access, and so they started to ask the story, what happened? He had been at school with some friends who had been talking about girls they liked, and for some reason, it made him scared to tell about the girl he liked because he might have to kiss her someday, and he realized he didn't know how to kiss a girl, which is such an innocent curiosity, right? But he felt that lack of knowledge as shameful, so he went home and somehow snuck on the... He didn't want anybody to know he didn't know how to kiss a girl, so he snuck on the computer somehow and did an internet search for how to kiss a girl, and along with explanations came up pornography, right? Because again, they're looking for their next customer, and that... He had never seen anything like this, right? And so there was initially curiosity, but then there was a sense of something must be really perverted about even my question, because look what came up. So I'd want you to just understand that your children are probably battling shame messages. Shame, in my opinion, is never from God. Conviction is, but shame in that sense of you're dirty, you're perverted, you're evil, you know, those messages are not from God. So just coming to understand how you can start to explore with them what some of those messages they battle are as well feels important. MEGAN: (6:08) So important. I have so many thoughts running through my head as I'm listening to you, and I don't know if this is true for all moms. It never occurred to me that any of my children would feel shame for who they were because I'm so crazy about them. SAM: (6:29) That's awesome. MEGAN: (6:31) Over the top. SAM: (6:32) I love that. I love it. MEGAN: (6:34) Even my own kids are like, you know, but I've told them so... I've probably gone overboard with telling them how remarkable they are to me and how special they are and how they are inherently very good and they have hearts of gold and how proud I am of them just because they are them and I love being with them, just being with them. And I've also discovered as they've entered young adulthood that they did have messages, like not from me, but from other places. They received messages that their sexuality was inherently wrong. And I didn't realize it. And so I wonder how many other parents, I don't know if that's just a me thing, but it's important for us to know that they're receiving these messages. Like the boy you just described who felt shame for not, how would he know how to kiss a girl? SAM: (7:29) And you're like, how did, what? Yeah. Right. Evil is trying. Evil hates sexuality. And so evil is trying to get messages of shame early in all of our stories. And so, yes, it can feel like, what? You struggle with what about yourself? MEGAN: (7:53) You're so amazing. You're my kid, you know? So yes. Yeah. But it is out there. And, you know, I wish, Sam, that I'd had your book when they were little. I know that things went the way they were supposed to go in our lives. But like you said, it's not too late to make this. Even with your 24, 25 year old, it's not too late. And it's very healing. And I did discover with my son, my younger son, when I did, you know, I just owned everything without giving him any reason to feel he needed to take care of me. He said, mama, I forgive you. He knows what our family's been through. He understands. And he's even moving into some protectiveness for his sisters and his mom. And just kind of as he grows, he's actually really crazy healthy. My son is. SAM: (8:48) That's amazing. MEGAN: (8:49) Even though we've been through so much together, like it's not too late. You're gonna make mistakes and you’re gonna make repair and you get to be human. So let me ask you this. If a mom feels awkward and unqualified, where does she even begin with her child, with her son? Can you give us language even? I mean, really basic, like tell us how to start. SAM: (9:15) Yeah. On one hand, it's okay to just honor that, that awkward feeling is partly because this is sacred and this is vulnerable. And this is a unique part of our existence as human sexuality is. And so right. We're the only species that covers our bodies and veils ourselves. And I think that's beautiful that God, you know, set it up that way. I actually think it's because, you know, bodies are glorious, not because they're shameful, you know, but God invited us to veil ourselves. So just understanding, like, it's okay for it to be awkward. That doesn't mean you are weird. It doesn't mean you're screwing it up. It's awkward for everyone, you know, even me with my sons. And so just to start with that normalization of like, this is just a sacred part of us. And most of us come from a lot of sexual neglect, meaning like we haven't had a lot of sexual formation that was healthy or innocent and blessed, you know, a message of blessing. So just starting with, you're probably coming from your own neglect, maybe even your own stories of shame. And so it's okay for that to be there. Second, I would say to not think of this as one talk, but to think of this as hundreds of little, even one minute talks. They don't have to be an hour long. In fact, probably you and your child are not going to be able to cope initially with an hour long conversation that would probably overwhelm them with like, whoa. Okay. So trying to meet, you know, I always encourage trying to meet your child at the level of their curiosity and paying attention to where they seem at their limit and being okay to be done there. And then, you know, what are the hundreds of one minute talks? Well, some of them will probably come to you spontaneously, meaning you're watching a movie or you're listening to a song together and you suddenly hear lyrics or you see a scene that maybe paints a picture of sexuality you don't like, or paints a picture of love and romance and sexuality that is good, right? And you take a moment to highlight it, talk about it. It could be you're in public and you see that. Meaning, so some of them are going to come to you. I was on a walk with my sons. This was a year ago, I think, maybe a little more. And my 12 year old son, we were walking our dog around the block and there was a car that said, condoms prevent minivans. Yeah. On the back of this little teeny car. Right. And my son said, dad, what's a condom? My 11 year old. So I was like, okay, here's, here we go. Here's where, yeah, here we go. We're going to do our one minute conversation on condoms. And so I explained, you know, we've talked about what sex is and this is, you know, it's called safe sex and it, it's, you know, it prevents, it's like a balloon. And I explained, you know, the basics of this is for a guy and it prevents the sperm, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, he was at his limit. He's like, okay, that was more than he bargained for. Right. But, but, and it was awkward. And I was like, okay, that was the one minute talk. And he's like, all right, thank you. Now the joke made sense. But at least I would say just, if you don't honor your kid's curiosity, they're going to go somewhere with their questions. So I think even normalizing with your kid, this will feel awkward. It's okay. If this feels awkward and you can tell me if you want me to stop talking, you can tell me if it's too much, we can stop there. Just normalizing that you can tell them it's awkward for me too. This is a sacred part of us. It can feel really vulnerable. Where else? I think, you know, again, and even if it's having to cast a vision from, you know, God made this to be pleasurable. God made your body for pleasure. You have three to 4,000 taste buds, right? You have eight to 10,000 nerve endings in your genitalia. Like God wired you for pleasure. So it's casting a vision of this can be good. It's meant to be an act of love, you know, speaking to those sorts of things. It doesn't have to be like, okay, let me tackle all the hard topics. In fact, if that's all you do, you know, it can put a, it can feel weighty to it. And then I think trying to read your son, your child, just with what's, where are they at? What's the culture around them in their friend group? What do you think is some of their questions? Just kind of guessing a little bit. What are you hearing from their friends? What's going on? If a friend has a breakup, if there's a divorce in their friend group, if you know stuff's going on, just trying to listen in and just have a little bit of a pulse on and try to read a little bit ahead to where are they at? I think, you know, things like if they're dating, starting to talk about what it means to honor a woman. I think just trying to set yourself up to be a safe place where you're going to, you're going to actually honor their questions. So like my 15 year old son has come home and said, dad, what does 69 mean? Dad, what is, what is, that's what she said. What are those jokes? My sons have asked me like, how do you know when you're ready to marry? What, how do you ask a girl out? What do you do on a date? Like just, you know, those are all sex talk conversations and you don't have to say everything. Right. Like when my son asked me, what does 69 mean? I was like, Oh, wow. Okay. And I was like, well, there are different positions you can have sex in. And that's where we left that one. So that was a 10 second conversation. MEGAN: (16:08) Yes. And I, you know, I didn't be 10 seconds. Yes. Right. SAM: (16:12) But it was, you know, I'm going to at least give him an answer that honors, and he didn't ask more. I was waiting to see if he was going to ask more. But you know, for 13 or 14, that's where that was enough. Okay. MEGAN: (16:30) So I'm hearing two things that I love. Um, the first one is that everything you've said in this whole podcast has this underlying river of relationality rather than behavior. That's everything you've said has relationships. So if we don't get past the 10 seconds, it still has this relational quality. It's okay for us to go, Oh, wow. Okay. That's when I didn't see coming, but here I'm here for it. You know? So by doing that, you're still creating that safe container for your kids to be able to talk to you about things. And I think, I think that's a big part of the essence of, of your book and of, of all of the things you've done for all these years. And that is, let's get to the core of this. Let's get to the relational piece of this. Let's let's see about wholeness, not, and then, then out of that comes the behavior. So you're saying inside out rather than outside in, and to have that relationship with your kids, that's open and honest, nonjudgmental. Um, you can ask me the questions. If I don't know, we'll figure it out. Or the way I did it was okay. You guys, I, I never received any of what I'm trying to give you. So grace for mama. Okay. I'm going to try this with you because I love you. And you know, this is new for me too, but I'm really excited to, to build up these conversations with you and start somewhere. And so, so it's okay to say things like that. That's relational and they know I love them, even though I'm going to make mistakes and I do make mistakes, you know, we all do. So. SAM: (18:14) Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. It's okay to say, can I get back to you? Let me think about it. It's also okay to say that. MEGAN: (18:24) But you have to get back to them though. You have to make sure you do. Yes. So I have one more question. We've kept you a long time. I could, we could go on. Okay, good. SAM: (18:36) I haven't even noticed the time. MEGAN: (18:38) Oh, good. That's good. So, you know, speaking relationally, how do boys learn to separate tenderness from sexuality and then how do we help them with that reorientation that reintegration? SAM: (18:53) Yeah. You know, there's, there's work by a woman, Peggy Orenstein. Uh, she's written, she's a journalist and she wrote a couple of books on the sex culture of high school and college age, young men and young women. And it is meaningful work to read. She interviewed like 150 young men, 150 young women to just try to get a pulse on that. Her one sentence conclusion, which I thought was powerful was when it comes to sex for women, she would say they need to learn to connect to their bodies and men need to learn to connect to their hearts. She's like, if I summarized all my work, that would be the one sentence that was powerful for me. She, what did she mean by that for young men? Well, she would say there is a, again, this is kind of the initiation, masculine initiation culture stuff, which treats sex as a commodity, as a scoring, as a points in the masculine world. Did you get some, I remember the very day that I got invited into that masculine culture myself in eighth grade, I had started going out with a girl in eighth grade. And I remember her name. I've changed her name, but we'll call her Jane. And I remember being at the vending machine and a upperclassman, I think a 10th or 11th grader came up to me and said, did you get some? And I, I didn't know what he was talking about at first. And then it clicked. He knew that I had started going out with Jane and I started hanging out with her and we had walked the mall. We did that back in the day. And we would talk on the phone and she would write me notes and colored ink that I loved. Right. And I just remember being, I just like, I felt still in my tenderness. Like I just loved the phone calls and the notes and the colored ink and the hanging out. Like I didn't, I didn't have this mindset of getting some, I maybe wanted to kiss her. I think I'd held her hand, but it wasn't a scoring, but I remember realizing like, Oh, this guy's aware I'm going out with her. And I just said, I held her hand when he asked, did you get some? And he laughed in my face and walked away. And I knew I had failed the test of becoming, you know, entering the world of men. So just understanding there's, there is a, there's a culture of that in men. And I, I think it's driven by the more ego, fragile men who use it to get status. So and Peggy Orenstein would say that that culture tends to start to separate men from their tenderness. That it's not cool anymore. You know, guys that I had a, a man tell me he remembers writing poetry to his first girlfriend. And then the football players, he was on the football team. His fellow football players hazed him in the locker room because they found out he had been writing poetry to his girlfriend. And they mocked him. MEGAN: (22:44) I feel that right here. That just, that's heartbreaking. That's hard. SAM: (22:48) Yes. And he was a man now married. And he said, I had totally forgotten that story, but I stopped writing poetry that day. I said, I will never do that again. And he said it through tears of like, because now he's married, trying to emotionally connect to his wife and she's missing his heart. Right. I'm not saying that's the only event, but that was one significant moment where he set aside his tenderness. So just understanding the vicious culture among men, and you're going to be left out. If you decide you're going to be a tender hearted man, unless you find good friends. And I was grateful to have found a group of friends in late college or right out of college I lived with that allowed for tenderness and it was holy. They were Christian men and I went to therapy and I had a male counselor who brought me back to my tenderness, but like, so just understanding your son will be left out. And I hate that. I hate that. Because it's, as you've said so well, it's setting a part of you aside, living half of you. MEGAN: (24:06) Exiling a part of you in order to be, to pass the test. Right. And it's not, it doesn't even, you don't get, it's not good. You don't, what do you win? You know? SAM: (24:19) Right. One of my, one of the most powerful quotes that Peggy Orenstein shared is from a, a college junior who said, um, I've had two hookups, two one night stands in college, two anonymous sex party hookups. And they both left me feeling empty and depressed. And like, what did I get other than I had sex with somebody? And this, this young man spoke to what you've said so well, this is already wired in you. You don't have to make this up, but he said, it didn't leave me with what I really value, which is feelings of discovery, connection, and intimacy. So here was a young man wrestling with, I tried the culture and it left me empty and depressed because I actually want intimacy and connection. And so I think there's a place, and I plan to have this conversation with my sons and have in ways about this, that the sex culture of college, the sex culture of high school to set them up with there are men, you're going to meet men who make sex about power and scoring, and you need to be aware that's going to happen. And that that's not how God wired you, you aren't made for that. MEGAN: (25:56) I, Sam, I just have no words. This is so incredibly helpful. I want to lift out the word intimacy for a second. Because, and I do my clients know about the intimacy cake that I video that I show all the time that has nice emotional intimacy. And then really, you know, like it has like, and then the fondant is the sexual intimacy and all the different levels of intimacy. And the reason I did that video is because, um, the word intimacy people, I think just go to sex. Like that's what that means to them. And that was kind of a new thing for me in the last 10, 15 years, I actually thought of as like sharing our stories and sharing our hearts. And, you know, look at this article and let's talk about that. That's how I thought of intimacy. And I don't know if it's my autism that, you know, I took very literally but intimacy in a lot of circles just means sex. That's really a shame because it's so all encompassing of everything, right? SAM: (27:06) Yes. Yes. Yes. Struggle. Yeah. And maybe that's a, I don't know if that's a counseling culture thing, but like, yes, we associate right. MEGAN: (27:20) Intimacy would say I'm really struggling in my intimacy. I would think, Oh, we need to person up a little bit and start talking. I know I'm going on a rabbit trail here, but I just wanted to say it's so true. Intimacy is all the levels. It's everything and wow. When it's everything, you know, so. Sex is not intimacy. Intimacy is not sex, but sex is part of a wide array of intimacy. SAM: (27:50) Well said. Yes. And understanding that. And I, think one of the powerful things that happens for me with men in counseling is when they begin to, some guys have just never had their emotional selves valued. Or called out. Nobody said to them, you are fully capable of bonding and being emotionally vulnerable with your wife. Some men have just never been told that. And it's tragic. And they've never experienced that. And I'm not saying they aren't at fault for having to own that. I'm just saying a lot of men are set up to not know that or to even have a, a tasted experience of like, this is actually really pleasurable to be emotionally connected to your partner. MEGAN: (28:43) And she wants that. She loves that. She is not going to say, wow, he's not very manly. That's not going to happen. That's what she's looking for. SAM: (28:53) Yes. I have, you know, one client and she's given me permission to share this because I shared it in the book. You know, the tragic story of, she said, I always knew what kind of day my husband had based on how he tried to have sex with me at night. And she said, sometimes I was the thing. I felt like I was the thing that he had to conquer and it was awful. That's, I felt so used. And it, I, I've thought about that guy so often as like, what, what if he had just come home and said, I had a really hard day. Can I talk? That's probably what he needed, but the wrestling with the vulnerability of that. And obviously the harm he was creating in his marriage. And so the work was to empower her to say, I'm not okay with this. And to begin to say, you don't have a right to my body. MEGAN: (29:51) And that's the work that I do also, as you know, is helping women understand that they're not here to be regulated on. They're not here to be used. SAM: (30:01) Oh, that's a powerful sentence. MEGAN: (30:03) It's, yeah, it is so needed. And sadly, even in a lot of our church cultures, they really believe that's their whole job is to be regulated on. And that is such a lie. That is so far from what sexual intimacy is. That is, it's a poor imitation of the real thing. It's a poor imitation of the real thing. And it's painful. It's painful for everybody. And I want to bring in for our listeners, I know what it's like to have been objectified, been the woman who was the score, been the woman who was used, was regulated on, and then have to do this healing work and then turn around and teach my sons what healthy sexuality and manhood. That is, that's hero work. It's not for the faint of heart. And so as you're listening to this, if you're like me or one of our clients, you are to be so honored and respected for even listening for this far for doing the healing work in your own life so that you can raise your sons in not that you have to set aside your story. SAM: (31:23) So well said. I just want to echo that blessing on that work as heroic. Yes, that is so powerful. What you described. MEGAN: (31:34) And I hope that everyone listening gets Sam's book. Again, he's here in Colorado where our state is lucky to have you. And I'm so thankful for you, Sam. You have made an indelible mark in our family. SAM: (31:54) Thank you. MEGAN: (31:55) Your work is powerful and I just feel deeply edified and even more equipped too. And if you don't know this, I teach parenting classes, listeners to moms who are single parenting and have kids who are at times dysregulated. We do a lot of DBT skills and things like that. And actually this is where it came up, Sam, because we were all like the questions they were asking. I was like, I need help. I need to get Sam Joelman on our podcast so I can ask questions because I don't know how to answer all these questions from these moms. SAM: (32:40) I'm so honored. And I just want to say as well, what you've described your work to work through your story of men and to make space for your son, that is wildly powerful work. So it's not just what you say. Your son will feel the difference in your presence. He will feel the space you're making for men to be more than just monsters, right? He will feel that. But again, you have to honor the monsters you've met in men. And it's not. MEGAN: (33:15) Thank you, Sam. It has been an absolute gift to have you today. (33:19) I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God's self and others. If you'd like some one-on-one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.

3. 

   10 Jul 2026

   Raising Whole Men: A Better Story About Masculinity, Sexuality, and Healing—With Sam Jolman

   Key Takeaways: Sam Jolman, author of The Sex Talk You Never Got, joins Megan in discussing men's and young adult's sexuality. They discuss culture and how to approach difficult topics with sons. Notable Quotes: "They didn't know to think richly about their own heart and being what I call in the book...to be a lover, you know, because the reality is men are just as deeply capable of emotional human connection as women. And women are just as sexually wired as men..." — Sam Jolman "...so women just kind of drop this whole sacred, feminine sexuality on the floor, like it's not there. And then men drop their deep emotional need for connection on the floor, like it's not there. And so you're helping people to tap into those things that are actually already there and they just haven't been exercised." — Megan Owen "You're actually wired like Adam, to be a lover, to be a poet, whether literally or...emotionally, figuratively, like this has deep connections to you. You're made for deep connection. You're made to be in awe of beauty..." — Sam Jolman "...I've never seen a man in my office outgrow his desire for his mother's blessing. It changes obviously, as you come of age and get more independent and live a separate life. But I've sat with so many men who weep tears over their longing for their mother to bless them as much as their fathers. So, I hope that speaks hope." — Sam Jolman Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com (http://mountaincitychristiancounseling.com/) Sam Jolman: Sam Jolman | Therapist & Author (https://www.samjolman.com/) The Sex Talk You Never Got: The Sex Talk You Never Got by Sam Jolman (https://www.samjolman.com/the-sex-talk-you-never-got-book/) MEGAN: (0:03) This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. (1:11) Hi friends, Megan Owen here with Mountain City Christian Counseling. Welcome to Pretty Psych. Today, I am over the top excited to have Sam Joelman with us on Pretty Psych. Sam, he is a trauma therapist, MA, LPC. He has over 20 years of experience specializing in men's issues and sexual trauma recovery. Being a therapist has given him a front row seat to hear hundreds of men and women share their stories. His writing flows out of this unique opportunity to help people know and heal their stories and find greater sexual wholeness and aliveness. He received his master's in counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and was further trained in narrative-focused trauma care through the Allender Center at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. Sam lives here in Colorado with his wife and three sons. Together, they enjoy exploring the best camping spots in Colorado in a pop-up camper. Sam goes to therapy, loves fly fishing, and can often be found trying to catch his breath on the floor of his local CrossFit gym. Sam, welcome. We are so happy to have you today. SAM: (2:29) Oh, Megan, the feeling of joy and excitement for this is mutual. I have deep respect for your work in the world. I'm a fan of yours. I follow your work and love the voice you're bringing to such important suffering in the world and how you speak to that. So the respect is very mutual. MEGAN: (2:51) It is so mutual. Well, I was just telling Sam before we started that we were on the list of people to receive his book early. I'm not sure what that list is called exactly, but we had the emails. I was so excited when I found out about your book, The Sex Talk You Never Got, because I am also a single mom, like most of my clients. Probably 80% of them are single mothers. I have two sons. I have two daughters, two sons. It was already difficult for me to have regular sex talks with my girls because our generation just didn't receive that from anybody. So to be able to talk to my son about whole masculinity and sex in a healthy way was super challenging for me. And so your book was an absolute gift to our family. SAM: (3:46) Thank you. That is such an honor as a writer to sit for so many hours alone. I actually printed off these little pictures. They're up here on the wall of readers. I just printed stock photos of people reading books so that I had somebody to pray for. And I printed men and women and old and young and just like, all right, God, give me stories. And so, man, and I cried so many tears at those prayers. So to meet and hear stories like yours, it's just, it's like a homecoming. It's like, oh, those are you and your son and your family, just readers stories are for that to be the fulfillment of who I was praying for. So thank you for sharing that. That means a lot. MEGAN: (4:39) This is emotional. It was just such a gift. And we'll put, of course, we'll put links to your work within this podcast. But before we go into that, I do want to ask you, Sam, what led you to write this book? What were you seeing in boys, men over and over in your counseling office? SAM: (5:00) Yeah, you know, I think we're, this is a setup for men and women, but the sense that I got is, you know, that sex is for men. Romance is for women is what is kind of the setup that we're taught. Right. And so, you know, as a man, you know, sex is what you really want, emotional connection, and all of that is what women want, which I think is such a curse on both men and women, because it sets women up, obviously, to be just, you know, you give out the sex. It's not that you are sexual in yourself, and that men are not capable of deep emotional connection. And so I think just seeing in my office, how wrong that was, how deeply men want connection, but they feel it's almost odd, you know, to be a man who wants emotional connection. And so I think there was a sense of like, how do I help men start to think more deeply about their sexuality, their hearts, their longings. A lot of men would come into therapy as well. You know, and whenever the topic of sex would come up, it would be really a conversation around, am I behaving or not behaving? Am I lusting or not lusting? Am I looking at pornography or not looking at pornography? And there was a sense of, they only saw it as good or bad behavior as well. They didn't know to think richly about their own heart and being what I call in the book, you know, to be a lover, you know, because the reality is men are just as deeply capable of emotional human connection as women. And women are just as sexually wired as men, right? These are not separate categories. I mean, the song of songs, we need to look no further than that. Both lovers love sex and are deeply emotionally connected to each other and love each other. So, you know, I think God gives that picture. I mean, they're writing poetry to each other. How do I help, you know, men enter their sexuality with a deeper, fuller heart was the desire. And then, you know, a big push into this was the Me Too movement and seeing, you know, I think the whole world was witnessing, you know, the reality that of men, of women suffering anything from severe trauma, sexual trauma to daily cat calls from men. And it wasn't only men, right? That were—people were sharing their stories and it wasn't only women sharing stories of suffering. It was also men, but through that time, you know, it felt like the world was asking, like, is this just what men are? Are men just this way, right? And even the church has a version of that. Like it's every man's battle you're going to lust. It's just kind of your, your inheritance as a man and feeling like, man, this is such a horrible picture of masculine sexuality. And knowing as a Christian, the story of Eden and knowing that this God made male sexuality. I know he made it for good. What is that good? That it's meant to give a man's personal life, but the world, his, his lover, his wife, but the world in general. So those were kind of the setups. And then of course, being a young man and not having had a sex talk and all that I suffered on that road, entering my own therapy and finding my own way to embodying sexuality well. And so I'm writing to the young man in me as well. It's probably most writers are, right? We're writing to younger selves. So I would say those things converged. MEGAN: (9:26) Beautiful. Thank you for that. So we're seeing a setup for men and women to, you know, as you're talking, I have this visual of a human and half of them is like laying on the floor untapped. Right. Because, because we are told this, this is how women are. This is how men are. And you don't get to have that. And you don't get to have that. As far as sexuality goes. And so women just kind of drop this whole sacred, feminine sexuality on the floor, like it's not there. And then men drop their deep emotional need for connection on the floor, like it's not there. And so you're helping people to tap into those things that are actually already there and they just haven't been exercised. Right. SAM: (10:16) Yeah. Yeah. That's a powerful picture. And I think it's an accurate one, right? To disown half yourself. Right. And, and, and really as you're naming well, the glory of God in your full humanness. Right. That's well said. MEGAN: (10:35) And what I've been learning from you and from others is that when you're able to, to, I don't know, tap into it. I don't know if that's a great way to say it, but when, when you connect, when you connect with that part that would normally be laying on the floor because you've been told it's not alive, you really feel better. Like you have a wholeness of, Oh, I don't have to just lop off this part of me and I get to be a full female and he gets to be a full male because he's bringing this in as well. It's not— I imagine it's scary for men to say, okay, I'm standing on this precipice and there's emotional connection there. And I've never really experienced that. I didn't know I could, I didn't know I was supposed to, am I still going to be masculine? Does that happen? SAM: (11:27) Right. Yes. I— you know, it's, it's strange. I've been surprised. And also I guess in the end, not surprised, but men will come and say things like, sometimes I feel more like the woman in the relationship because I want the emotional connection. And I'm like, why do we have to say it that way? Right? But they do because it's like the man, they feel like they're disowning their man card. Right? Say like or a man that said to me, I know I'm just supposed to always be ready, but I'm actually missing romance with my wife right now. And again, I think they're speaking to this pressure of like, you're supposed to just want sex, but even as you're saying so well, even the men that I, that maybe feel more in that category of, no, I want sex. I'll ask them like, what do you love about sex? And they'll say things like, you know, well, it's the time I feel most wanted or most desired by my wife. It's when I have her full attention or I feel special to her or I feel connection. It's more the depth of affection. So it's things that in the end come back to their emotional selves. MEGAN: (12:54) That's connection. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I see what you're saying. You can't really separate most of the time. You can't, you know, a lot of men that you've experienced this really is an emotional sex is emotional for them. SAM: (13:07) So, yes. MEGAN: (13:08) Wow. Okay. All right. Well, this is exciting. I'm loving this conversation. So what do you think, Sam, most boys don't receive emotionally or spiritually around sexuality growing up? SAM: (13:24) You know, I think so quickly the conversation, and again, I'm, there's not a, I don't think this is, you know, evil intent in the parents. I think it's been kind of the cultural air we breathe. There's such a quick push to, you know, here's what sex is kind of the birds and the bees or the mechanics of it. And they're very quick push to purity, within Christian circles, you know, so, you know, here's how it works. Don't screw it up. Right. And there's no, there's quick, a quick conversation about lust. And, I think it makes men feel that their sexuality is certainly true of me that their sexuality is kind of a monster that they need to contain or put in a cage or they're going to, you're going to be fighting this part of you, your whole life, just get ready. And it, there's not a blessing of like, you're actually wired for sensuality. You're actually wired like Adam, to be a lover, to be a poet, whether literally or, you know, emotionally, figuratively, like this has deep connections to you. You're made for deep connection. You're made to be in awe of beauty, right? You're wired. Just like you would see a sunset. You're wired to see beauty in a woman. And people in general, you know, I had a reader, a father who actually, his kids go to my son's school and he stopped me and with tears in his eyes told me he had read my book. He had sat down with one of his sons over breakfast, to have the sex talk. And he said to be able to tell my son about how beautiful sexuality is and how he's wired. He said he and his son were crying tears of joy at like, he, he said to be able to tell my son, you, you get to fall in love with a woman. Like you see a beautiful sunset, you know, that was a door that was so helpful for him. And he had said he'd never had that blessed inside of him. So I think just those capacities to me, either there's nothing said. And so men kind of find their way or end up talking to their friends, or sadly more nowadays go to pornography for their sex education. Right. Or they get something like a purity talk that just sort of keeps them again at setting up, setting it up as an animosity towards your sexual self. MEGAN: (16:26) This is so important, Sam. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about my clients, our audience, the, our coaches, the women I work with, there are so many complexities with raising our sons. So a lot of us have been doing it alone, and their fathers, our boys fathers are abusive. And so there's no blessing coming to them from their father. So we are trying to be mother and father in a lot of ways. And not everybody, I mean, some people like some people have a, like some of my moms have a father who could do that for their children. But most of the women that I've worked with for the last 15 years are on their own a hundred percent. And then to make it even more complex, their fathers, they were addicted to porn. And so I know for me, I brought in, cause my kids were all four of them were real little when I left, but I was staunchly against porn. I knew what it had done to our marriage, to me, to my kids. I knew what it had done. And so I had that, you know, but I didn't know how to manage any sort of healthy sexuality for my boys, which, you know, I've talked to them. I've asked their forgiveness for not knowing what to do, what to say, but also because of my work, I think they sometimes felt as though men, men's sexuality was predatory. And because of that, they were hurt by that. And I'm trying not to cry as I say this, I've asked their forgiveness. They love me there. You know, we have a good relationship and a lot has been healed, but because of the nature of working with abused women, men are seen as predatory. So let me ask you this and get your opinion on it. I think I'm sharing my opinion on it, but for women like me and for our clients, sometimes we accidentally communicate to our boys about male sexuality without realizing it. So can you join me in talking about how we sometimes can talk about sexuality in a way that make boys feel dangerous or shameful and what we do about that? SAM: (19:08) Yeah. You know, as much as I'm casting a vision for a different picture of masculine sexuality, obviously, you know, the, the subtitle of my book was reclaiming the heart of masculine sexuality, because I think without that heart, without that lover heart, without that heart of awe and honor and respect and reverence, right? Male sexuality tends to get put into the category of power or ego boosting or violating, taking right? Things go really bad. They can not saying they always do, but it can get pretty savage. I carry a lot of tenderness. My own, as I share in my book, my own mother had a very horrific story of suffering harm at the hands of really evil, sexually evil men. And she gave me permission to share that story in the book. So I, you know, even grew up under an awareness of her fear. And, and that was part of my gauntlet of like, you know, how do I interpret what her body says when she's afraid, you know, and I could read that and know that. So it's okay that that's there. And it is an important part of the story to tell. And I think all men understand that there is a culture in mass. There's a masculine culture that uses sex for ego stroking for, for initiation, for power, for status, right? It is why we have the culture of even something as simple as our sex joke culture, but the hazing culture that happens in locker rooms or sports teams or high schools or colleges, right. And even guys who are adult men you know, there can be a culture of sharing pornography or just even what a man is doing in secret, whether it's with, you know, a culture of men or not. So that's an important story to tell as well to say, sexuality can go here. It can leave your lover heart and go over to, to the ego stroking as I call it, right. The building up your ego and having power over. So I actually think that's an important conversation to have. And I think it's okay for mothers to have probably, you know, potentially even specifically as your children are late teenagers, early twenties to share parts of your own story, like men that you've met and, and right. To be able to share men that you've experienced who are good versus men who are harmful. What was the difference? What did you appreciate? Those stories can be just as initiating and helpful. So I would want to start by normalizing. It's okay. That parts of your story are present. It's best that you know, when they're showing up right. That you've done. And I, this probably goes without saying, but let me say it on behalf that you've done enough work around your, your experience of men that, you know, when you're in your triggers, even if it's an hour later and you're like, Oh no, I think I was triggered. Right. That even that is okay. If so that can— your sons can experience like, Oh, okay. It's okay. It's okay for them to know that part, that that happens. And I love that you did the repair work to say, I'm so sorry. I think I cast a vision that was partly specific. What I hear you saying is specific to my suffering. And let me tell you the rest of the story. I think being able to know, I will say this as a, as a son and I, I wanted my mother's blessing as much as I wanted my father's blessing of my sexuality. I wanted to know that there was a path for me to be sexually alive and also safe. That those didn't have to be separate. And so, you know, as much as we talk about, you know, fathers initiating sons and having these conversations, I think it's important, but like, I wanted it just as much from my mother to know I could be a good man and stay connected to my sexuality, that those didn't have to be separate. So I would want to just say, your voice so deeply matters to your sons. And can they tell you that? Probably not, you know, maybe as they come of age, you know, in their twenties, they can maybe say actually, you know, maybe they can start to find a voice for parts of this hunger. But so no matter where you are in the journey, if you feel like, oh, shoot, I've reacted out of my own story. There's always space for repair. There's no expiration date on this conversation. Would it be good to have at 13, 14, 15, as you come of age? Sure. Does that mean at 25, you're too late? No, I've never seen a man in my office outgrow his desire for his mother, his mother's blessing. It changes obviously, as you come of age and get more independent and live a separate life. But I've sat with so many men who weep tears over their longing for their mother to bless them as much as their fathers. So I hope that speaks hope. MEGAN: (25:39) Thank you. SAM: (25:40) Yes. MEGAN: (25:41) I hope for the mothers who are listening that this reaches a deep place in you, like it just did for me. Thank you, Sam. I needed to hear that. SAM: (25:55) I really appreciate that. Yes. MEGAN: (25:58) Okay. So Sam, you're talking about, you know, we may not have had these conversations with our sons at 12, 13, 14. It's scary. I think for us, it was scary for me to have talks with my girls. Now it's natural. So I do think that it gets better. Like if you're scared, just do a little bit and then it's going to, it will get easier. It will get better. It will. We're more comfortable. But what do we do when, say, our 14 year old son comes and says, mom, I've been looking at pornography and I don't know what to do. How do we do that as mamas? SAM: (26:43) I think first and foremost for any parent, father, mother, single parent or not, you know, that is, that's heavy. And so being able to regulate yourself to start with like, okay. Just breathing through that. Then I would say, I think it's important to treat a 14 year old struggling with pornography is different than a 35 year old struggling with pornography. A 14 year old struggling, struggling with pornography does not have the depth of the hardness of heart, does not have the depth of sophistication to know and be aware of all their getting drawn into. And so being able to separate, I'm not talking to a hardened man who is more culpable, more responsible, more aware of the harm of all of this, right? Do 14 year olds know about the misogyny inherent in the sex pornography industry? No, probably not. Right. Do they know all that is being scripted for them? No, I would say no. And so starting with saying, okay, my 14 year old coming to me, my 17 year old coming to me, my 19 year old coming to me is not a hardened misogynistic jerk. They are, and again, older ages, I think there's more responsibility to say you're aware more. So starting with that second to say, honor that they're scared, honor that they're coming to you. Honor that to tell you has been a profoundly brave act. I would not start with punishment. If you punish at all— now restricting access, engaging them and when and where and how they're looking is important, but I would start with not treating this as like, I've got to get to a discipline issue here. I would start with—in many ways. And in many times a young man's first experience of pornography sadly is—can often be a sexually violating moment, meaning somebody has shown them pornography. And when you don't know what's coming, even if you have a concept that pornography is about naked people having sex or something, you have no idea what that's actually going to be like to experience. And so trying to see this as they've been violated, even if they've been a part of sneaking, you've got to see that they've been violated by the culture of pornography, evil. So honor that they've risked with you and then get them help. Yes. So try to understand how, when, where did they start? Did somebody introduce it to them? Did somebody sexualize them to bring this into their lives or life to hold the tension of this isn't just, Oh, you know, I told you not to do that. You know, you're grounded. You need to make room for, they're probably pretty scared because they're probably pretty traumatized by what they've seen. Pornography is so—goes so fast towards misogyny and violation. And you know, as we know, it, it so manipulates scripts and, and gender and abuse. So just understand they're probably pretty shaken. And then I think restricting access certainly how are, you know, but you've got to leave room for their bodies and their arousal script have been impacted by this. So they need help unwinding that momentum. Not if that's all you do attempts at self-soothing. It could be out of sexual curiosity, but I, you know, I believe repeated movement back towards pornography always has its roots in some self-soothing. And it's not just an overactive sex drive, right? It's no, there's things that they're trying to regulate in their lives. So trying to invite them into what potentially getting them counseling, which I would recommend to help talk through what they've seen, but continue relationship with them. Make this more, certainly more than one conversation, but I would say my experience, most men to enter into a battle with pornography primarily out of their own. So what's their ritual when and where, and do you know what's going on in you before you look, just helping them see that it may not even be sexually needed. It obviously sexually impactful, but it could be a part of their story, part of their own trauma, part of their own sexualization from somebody through sexual abuse. MEGAN: (33:12) I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God's self and others. If you'd like some one-on-one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.

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