Weirdos In the Workplace

About Weirdos In the Workplace

Weirdos in the Workplace is a podcast about building successful organizations through servant leadership, fostering creativity, high performing teams, and trust-based healing cultures. Join us to learn how embracing "weirdness" can lead to better workplaces.

Publisher

Erin Patchell

Category

business · society & culture

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

29 Mar 2023

Latest episode

6 Nov 2024

Latest episodes

75 episodes in the feed.

1. 

   6 Nov 2024

   LinkedIn Bullying: The Crisis Affecting Professionals Everywhere

   Intro: Shelly Elsliger, founder of Linked-Express, is a celebrated LinkedIn Trainer and Social Connection Maker. Founder of the #decidetobekind movement, she tackles online bullying and promotes a culture of kindness. Recognized by the National Women Speakers and a Forbes contributor, Shelly is a voice for diversity and psychological safety in the workplace. In her personal time, she enjoys pickleball and supports animal welfare in Nova Scotia. Writing a book, almost done, “From Connections to Protection: combating bullying on linkedin” - coming out in early 2025! Stay in Touch with Shelly: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/selsliger To learn more about Shelly and her Services: https://linkedexpress.ca/ Bullying on LinkedIn is a little bit more discreet and it's not in your face like it is with some of the other social media sites you have to be very diligent. If you're dealing with a bully, don't think anything goes past them. And just remember that they can just come up like a chameleon and, and, and change their spots. Welcome to weirdos in the workplace. The podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and welcome to Shelly Ellslager, my friend. Hi, Shelly. Hi,  thanks for joining me.  Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Uh, Shelley Elsliger is the founder of linked express. She's a celebrated LinkedIn trainer and social connection maker, the founder of the decide to be kind movement, hashtag decide to be kind. She tackles online bullying and promotes a culture of kindness. She's been recognized by the national women's speakers and is a Forbes contributor.  She's the voice for diversity and psychological safety in the workplace and in her personal time. She enjoys Pickleball, uh, and supports animal welfare in Nova Scotia. And Shelley, I was so excited just right before the show that you're going to be an author soon in early January, February 2025. Um, book called From Connections to Protection, Combating Bullying on LinkedIn. That's amazing. You're so cool. I love you.  It's great to talk about it, actually.  Thank you.  Getting it out there early. I like that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, no, no, no. Um, I mean, you're probably one of the most prolific LinkedIn,  uh, trainers that I've ever met. Um, so, you know, that's pretty, I think that's pretty neat. You know, you're, you've deep dived right in.  Yeah.  I don't know my life without LinkedIn, to be honest. I, I, it's just such a big part of what I do and what I help other people to do and achieve. So I just feel it's just a part of my regular everyday life. Every day, but.  I've been using and promoting LinkedIn for a long, long time. Yeah, I actually love LinkedIn. I am not a fan of other social media platforms, mainly because I think, you know, the discussion kind of we're, we're going to be talking a little bit about bullying and online bullying today and, you know, and just being a, just a. Big, big jerk all around, you know, people being jerks.  Um, but I find like, like Twitter or X, you know, even like Instagram, Facebook, uh, Twitter, YouTube's terrible nowadays. You know, you can't look at a comment section without. Without just having it turn your stomach anymore, you know, um, anyways, we're going to go down that rabbit hole, uh, further, but I want to know, like, how did you get so invested in LinkedIn? Like, tell me what that journey was like for you.  So it's interesting how you know my relationship with LinkedIn became more than just the average person I mean I, I was an educator as a career development specialist I mean still am in many ways but  that took up a big part of my career so there was. LinkedIn had, like early on, had a contest and about what would you do, you know, if you were a LinkedIn trainer, how would you take LinkedIn and, and make LinkedIn something that would, um, improve, uh, somebody's, uh, life or a group of people's lives. You know what I mean? What would you do? And I had the idea that I. Would create this workshop or series called LinkedIn and High Heels, and there's a story behind that by Hilton, but that I would create something for women business leaders called LinkedIn and High Heels  and, um,  to, to get them to rise up. So, you know, you can wear anything you want, but to rise up to the occasion, and how you could brand yourself effectively. On LinkedIn and get over imposter syndrome and really create a space, um, as a woman leader on LinkedIn.  And so when I presented this, and the funny thing is, is that I really didn't have an idea. So I presented it,  won the contest, went to Calgary,  ended up,  you know, at this conference, which was kind of like the, what I won, um, ended up at a coffee shop. I'm standing in line. I see somebody with the LinkedIn.  jacket on. And of course, I know everything there is to know. So I decide that I'm going to pay  a latte forward. And I'm going to, all of a sudden I got this idea, I'm going to call it a LinkedIn latte.  So person orders  and I come up and I say, I'll pay  for that, you know, I'll pay that forward. And so then I said, and here's your LinkedIn latte. And then anyway, we ended up sitting down and had an interesting conversation.  Two hours later, when we should have been at the conference and  networking, we were kind of like chatting. And then this whole idea came up that I, about what I had presented and why I had won and all of this. You know, the whole story behind it, and  it,  it just, let's just say that coffee, and I think coffee is so powerful in creating relationships and opportunities, and I, I use the LinkedIn Latte thing ever since, but, don't trust anyone who doesn't drink coffee, by the way,  yes, but it doesn't even have to be a coffee, it can be anything. It's just that whole idea of social, like I call LinkedIn Latte everything, um, you know, but the whole idea of just. Using something to create connection. And  with that coffee, I ended up being introduced to some key players at, at LinkedIn and people who liked my ideas and people who supported me and, and I ended up. Just becoming kind of this. I don't, I don't want to say I was part of the LinkedIn team I wasn't at that point but it was somebody that they were looking at as  you know somebody as a speaker somebody they could trust, because at that time we got to remember this is quite a ways back it doesn't happen today. But they were looking for people who needed, who could,  you know, spread the word and help people learn about their LinkedIn, uh, learn more about their LinkedIn experience and their LinkedIn profile and optimizing their profile because that's not really what LinkedIn Canada does. It's not what they do either. Right.  They're for sales. That's how they make money. So anyway, so it transpired and it grew. And then I ended up actually working with LinkedIn, like working with LinkedIn as an external liaison for  University of Toronto for, um, uh, for a three, a three year period and actually working on LinkedIn learning and optimizing your profile. And so that was a significant, um, three year stint of working with LinkedIn, like working in that capacity. So, yeah, so that's how it all transpired. So that's quite a ways back. And ever since then, ever since being. Having the opportunity to present what I would want to do with LinkedIn, um,  ever since then, I, I've been a believer and I, I am  just promote it wherever it can go. And right now in 2024, it's no longer optional before it was, it's no longer optional today. No, I agree. I'm shocked that When I see people that aren't on LinkedIn, um, and I don't know how they, I don't know how they, they support their own careers, you know, I guess they're just happy with the job they have. And that's great for them. And I hope that they never lose it. No, like that. And that is the issue because many people think that they only should be on LinkedIn  for a job. If they're not looking for a job, then hey, let me get off LinkedIn and then go back if I need a job. And that  creates so much havoc with your space on LinkedIn. Mm-Hmm. , your, your algorithm. Mm-Hmm. , um, how your algorithm runs on LinkedIn  and, and actually you're not, you're doing yourself a disservice because LinkedIn is actually a networking site. So if you're only on there to find a job, then you're taking away all of the, all of what has to happen on LinkedIn to lead up to, to that, you know, you're not building those connections. You're not building trust. You're not showing your expertise. You're not working with the LinkedIn algorithm by, you know, only coming in when you think you should.  And that's just totally like a myth. It's just because  LinkedIn is at the end of the day, a net, a networking site and everything is grounded in. You're like, let's put it this way. You're like ability score on LinkedIn is how well you network.  Right. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Um, and it's, it's, it's like, you know, demonstrating your expertise anywhere else in the world to, you know, LinkedIn is just, you know, it's, it's, um,  Kind of like a microcosm of the rest of the world, right? It's just like condensed into one space.  Um, so the opportunity is huge if you can take advantage of it by demonstrating your expertise and like sharing knowledge and ideas with people, you know, connecting with interesting people, getting curious. Um, I do find like, this is why I love LinkedIn so much. It's because it's, it feels like the majority of people there, Have like kind of that growth mindset that you, you want to cultivate with your, in your network, or at least I do. The people in my network, you know, tend to be doing interesting things. They're curious. They're starting businesses or starting interesting projects or volunteering. They're getting involved in their communities. Um, and I think that's amazing.  And so when you told me that there's actually, um, this, this rather, you know,  surprisingly large group of people that are actually using LinkedIn as like a tool for bullying, um, and then there's sort of like a dark underbelly. I was so surprised. Um, can you, can you lead us into that a little bit?  Yes, I mean, it's not, you know, I wish I could say that LinkedIn could hide itself from bullying.  I, and I don't say this, and I talk about bullying on LinkedIn a lot. Um, and I don't say it to discourage people from using LinkedIn. I mean, I'm such an advocate for LinkedIn. But I, you know, LinkedIn is one of those sites where people Go in sometimes blindly like they they want to go in believing that  we're everyone's professional and everyone is going to take that professional space seriously.  And, um, lift each other up and it is nice to believe that and for the most part,  bullying on LinkedIn is a little bit more discreet and it's not in your face like it is with some of the other social media sites. So, because of that, many people don't  suspect it there. And,  but it's, it exists, because at the same time.  Naturally, there are people, jealous people, um, angry people, um, frustrated people and LinkedIn can be kind of a really good  place for them  to, um, take out the, those feelings. And, um, bully or harass people is a way for them to, um, gain power. I mean, bullying on LinkedIn is no different than bullying any place. Um, bullies  are, have, um, a need or a desire  to, um, lash out at others as a way to mask their insecurities.  And when you're dealing with LinkedIn in a professional site.  You're dealing with a lot of power players, you're dealing with jealous colleagues,  these are just the potential. You're dealing with people who are very opinionated, and I  mean that in a very exaggerated  way.  And you have people who are wanting the attention and not knowing how to get it in any other way. Right? And then you have what I call podmasters.  And they are the, the ones that look like they're your best friends and act like they're your best friends and look like they're really looking out for you, but they're not. And they, they go after you and control you in a way to, to, that looks to you like support or feels like support and inclusivity,  but it's actually not because as soon as you make a wrong move.  You're also from the group, and that can be very difficult for many people. So it exists. It can just be not as  not as visible to people looking in as like YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. Right. They can be much more visible. So, you know, my idea is that we have to know about it to do something about it. We don't have to know about it to run away from it because bullying exists everywhere. Um, but we have a chance  by learning and opening ourselves up to understanding how it plays out to do something about it when we're in that situation. And I think that that's what's important to me because I've had bullies in my life.  And when I became old enough to, to understand it and to do something about it,  I decided to become a true advocate and do something about it. And because LinkedIn takes up so much of my life. Learning about some of the stories that I have over the years, just kind of like  those stories kind of  did it for me like they kind of  like the like where I was going with LinkedIn and kind of just created another  space that I could that I found myself in been very passionate about because It's not something that's talked about that often when it comes to LinkedIn, but something that's really important to talk about. A hundred percent. And I think it's, it's, you know, when you go on Twitter, when you go on YouTube, it's, you see the comments, it's kind of easy to ignore them in a way because you're ready for it. You know, you're ready. They're there, you're, you're kind of your guards up, you know, and I know sometimes I've posted some, you know, YouTube videos, like weird as in the workplace videos, uh, and there have been quite a few, usually they're in the DEI or, you know, inclusion space. Which is very sad. And those are the videos that get targeted the most, you know, by online bullies and dissenters and people who are just philosophically opposed,  you know, to, to being kind to others, essentially, you know, and actually including others and considering others. So, um, which it sounds crazy, but, um, you know, they're, they're, they're out there. So, yeah, but, so, but, but the, the point is, um, you don't expect that on LinkedIn. Right. So,  you know, I think that it is. harder to handle when you're not expecting it. You know, when you're, you feel like you're, you know, in a space where you can be authentic and let your guard down and then, you know, then it hits you and then something happens. Um, and that's probably even, that's probably that much more traumatizing, I would think. It is. And, and it's happened to  several people and, um, it's, it's  so, um, impactful that I mean, you know, I could tear up at some of the stories that I've heard over the years because you, you know, most of us go into LinkedIn with so much trust  and we're remote. We're doing is we're going on LinkedIn because we want to open that open our, how do you say that? Our circle of trust. We want to open that by going on LinkedIn.  And then what happens when we do encounter a bully,  our, our, our power, our trust. Like it, it,  we suddenly, suddenly something happens and we're just not expecting it. We're not expecting that that's going to happen. Right? So, so  what happens is it just may, it, it, everything it, that we've gone into LinkedIn with thinking about and imagining and, and that, that, that circle that we want so badly to, In large  suddenly has been disintegrated with with with a remark or, um, with bullying or harassment and it closes people down it. It  it's sometimes unrecoverable for some people, they just can't come back, they leave the platform like it because it's so  they just went in there with a sense of  trust and  they didn't suspect anything. So when that happened, it was so devastating  that  the result was devastating as well. And that's why I'm happy to be talking about it and writing a book about it. Because. Awareness will is key awareness is that  you go into LinkedIn, but you still have to have kind of and I call it like,  you know, a bully alert system.  And just be aware that it can happen because LinkedIn is not immune to bullying, LinkedIn is not immune to it. It's just. It may show up  in different spots. It may hide its ugly head. And it's easy to hide.  Bullies can easily hide on LinkedIn because they can use What's there for them, like direct messaging, they can put things in like a really crowded, like, um, let's say a post does really well and they can take that post and manipulate it in some way, shape or form. So there's just little,  little way, there's, there's more ways to do it on LinkedIn that is not as outward as you would see on some of the other sites.  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it's very interesting, especially if you're someone who's new to LinkedIn, you know, that that phase that those first several weeks or months when you're on LinkedIn, or if maybe you're coming back, maybe you've had an account for a while, but you've never really been active, you know, and you decide to become active on LinkedIn, those are like really vulnerable moments, you know, like it's usually people are stepping way outside their comfort zone when they begin to become active on LinkedIn. And so, you know, I can see that that would, that would be very difficult. Um, I have a lot of experience with bullying as a younger person. Um, we were bullied, bullied pretty profoundly, uh, you know, in, in, um, you know, when, in the younger years, um, And, uh, yeah, so I, I mean, I, I've never tolerated it with anyone. It's one of my major triggers. You know, even I've, we've been walking with my husband on the street, you know, seeing kids bullying another kid and I will lose my shit, Shelly. I will literally like, I will, I will go off, you know, and, and I'm not like saying we should go yell at other people's kids or whatever, but  it's happened once or twice. You know, like it's just it's just such a big trigger like you should never treat people with disrespect.  You know, I get it. I get it. Yeah. I don't I don't sit back and I,  I can be pretty quiet, Matt, like my manner is kind of quiet. But when it comes to that I become somebody different. I, I, because I was bullied, um,  and that's how the LinkedIn and High Heels came out, which you can talk about later, but I, um, yeah, it's a trigger for me as well. And it's a trigger for me on LinkedIn as well. It's, it's like when I see it, because I became a CSI on LinkedIn for a year and reached out to people who had no, who were no longer active because I did a changemaker series for about three years where I, Every month, pretty much every month, I had a change maker series on people that I had become  acquainted with or even friends with on LinkedIn. And suddenly I saw people dropping off and not being there anymore. And so  reaching out to them or finding them through another method and then hearing their stories. It just broke me. It really broke me because, you know, what happened when I was younger broke me as well. I mean, I recovered. I took that adversary and, you know, that adverse situation when I was,  you know, 12 and 13,  and I, I turned it around so that I could, you know,  That I could do something good. Um,  but it breaks me when I see it. So when that happens, I, I become a different person because I can't just let it happen. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a psycho. Like  they will never do that again. I guarantee you. I'm yeah, for sure. Um, and we're in it, you know, if my kids, if I see my kids even, cause I've got three, they're teenagers now and they're very well adjusted somehow. Um, but, uh, you know, if I ever saw any of that behavior from them, even to each other or to other people, that was the last time they ever did that. Believe me, I can be scary. Like, you know, nothing scarier than a person who's been bullied and who's an anti bully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we have to, anyway, I think they need, they need people like us. Yeah. So how can everyone kind of keep an eye out for this kind of behavior? And what do you do if you notice it?  So there, uh, so there are different things that can show up on LinkedIn, which is a form of bullying. You know what? I always say, go with your gut. Cause I've been told that over the years, if it doesn't feel right,  then it probably isn't right. You know, if somebody, so I had a bully recently,  people would not call that person a bully, but I am calling that person a bully. And the reason I say that is because I really don't put out anything on LinkedIn that I don't know something about, you know, I mean, they don't go there to be anybody else or I don't, you know, I have the, the  things that I've honed the, the, you know, my expertise that I've honed. And I usually really am very aware, and I plan what I'm going to share. And I share  from the perspective of, of knowledge, like I, like I, I know, or  it's an example or a story or some expertise. Sure. So anyway, this one person I've been in, you know, career development, like I said, a long time over 20 years. And I put out something about,  um, a resume and I, I told people not to post their resume on LinkedIn. And I'll tell today, do not post your resume on LinkedIn. Anybody can download your resume on LinkedIn, and that is a great way to say, okay, take my identity, you know, if you want to, that's it, you might as well just invite people post their whole resumes, like with their addresses and everything. Yes. Okay. Yes. And they posted in the featured section or they posted. Now, if you post it for a recruiter in the private section, that's different. Nobody accesses the private place to for jobs because that's private. That's only between you and the recruiter, which is you're sending your resume in for a particular, you know, job that I'm not meant. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like the featured section, people featured section to post the resume. And for people now, if you want to do a resume, but you with the understanding that  none of your contact information are on there are no identity of work, you actually like work because that can go back to something like, you can't leave, you can't put a resume up there that could lead to any anywhere like you know, so. But most people are not aware. So the majority, I can go on and if I find somebody with a resume, chances are that resume has not been edited in any way or docked any way to make it, um, okay, confidential, confidential and private. And you're just basically putting it up there, but you don't need to put it up there. Somebody's going to ask you for your resume. If you're a job seeker, they're going to ask you, they need to, I mean, your resume, like your LinkedIn has, I mean, most of the qualities of your resume anyways, I would say, you know, of course your resume, I mean, it's your story, it's your journey, but at the same time, you're still doing your work experience. You're still.  Um, and you don't need to put your resume up there so I, I gave this advice.  This one person who told me  that's not true. People can put their resumes up there. And at first that was fine. People can have their opinions. LinkedIn is built for sharing opinions, of course,  but  she was inviting people into the conversation, her, her friends, she basically telling me, no, it's not that way, and then it turned into.  A direct attack at my knowledge. That's where it started to feel uncomfortable. Yeah. No kidding. I can't even imagine. I didn't do anything at that time because bullies want you to react, right? So I know this, but sometimes it's so hard not.  So I got caught up in reacting at the, at the beginning.  And then as people came to support, um, her, uh, I kind of like, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  Backed away a little bit. Okay.  I could see that there was, you know, a bit of, um,  unhappiness around the fact that I wasn't responding. Okay. But I didn't respond. I let it go. I didn't block anybody at that point. I didn't report anybody at that point. I didn't really do anything about it. I just eliminated myself from the conversation. Hmm.  Skip a week.  I put out something else. Same thing. Challenging me. The same person? Same person. Challenging me on  another issue. That's so weird. Like why?  So weird. But  I was not surprised because  as I said, if it feels that it's not right, you know, it's not right. And I wasn't surprised when she came back. So basically it got to the point that anything I posted, um, she would come back. With, with some kind of attack on what it was her, like, what were her qualifications? Is she like a competitor or something? Like, what's the deal at all? Like any ter, which I was surprised about because like, you know, if you're in human resources, I would really never work with.  Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, you're kind of like announcing that you're, you're a big old jerk, you know, you're a big old jerk. And why would you be looking on LinkedIn in the featured section for somebody's resume? Like if you want somebody's resume, you know that that's private, that's private information. I mean, of all people. You know, of all, of all backgrounds. So it was really surprising for me, but I think it was more personal than anything. And for, and not that there's any personal relationship, I don't have a personal relationship. I just don't think that either. She didn't like what I said, or just, I was the target that she decided to target. And, um, I became a target and I could see it. And so there came a point when I. Started to be feel very anxious when I would go and post on LinkedIn and I feel very comfortable on LinkedIn. It's not a space that I feel. Uh, I feel good on LinkedIn. And so right away I said no. As soon as I feel like that,  no, I can't go any further. So I decided to do what I had to do and I, I had taken screenshots I had taken because I was gonna block and, and, and, um, eliminate all the, those conversation. Mm-hmm, . But you can't do that until you. Record everything, because LinkedIn will take, it'll only take seriously as much as you can provide, as much as the evidence you can provide. So I did all of that, I took all kinds of screenshots of the conversation, what was said, even, and so then at one point I even got a DM, a direct message from that person, saying that I should stop putting things out on LinkedIn that are wrong, I'm going to ruin my credibility, and it was horrible. So I thought, no way is this going to be my experience on LinkedIn,  so I'm going to get my, you know, I'm a bully advocate. I know what to do, and this is a  perfect example to do it. And I just went about, I, I reported her. I sent in all the documentation, because when you block somebody, they can't see anything from you, and you can't see anything from them. And so it's great. It's a lot more effective than just unfollowing or, um, you know, discontinuing the connection. Um, so that was important and I reported to LinkedIn and I do know that she got a warning of  what she was doing. Because it started off with that one post, but then it ended up being three or four before I did anything about it. And that was long for me, but there was kind of a reason why I let it go, I normally wouldn't, but I wanted to use it to teach people. And I wanted to, uh, and I, I'm using it as a, as a teaching moment, but when, you know, it didn't feel good at the beginning. And as much as, just as I expected, it became something and the more that it happened, the more, um, aggressive the, the, the conversations became the more, um,  like, I'm going to say Sally, you weren't doing what you were told. So, you know, yeah, like just really, really, it went from being just challenging to, um, To being aggressive. And that's what you understand a bully and behavior.  And so I, um, and then I put a stop to it after, after that, but that was my most recent encounter. Yeah.  I'm really sorry to hear that you had to have that experience. Yeah, it wasn't pleasant, but at the same time, I know how to handle it. Right. Like I, I, and that's.  I guess that was another reason why I started the book. I had  been putting information away for the book. Um,  that incident there told me that I had to start writing the book,  get it out there because unlike, I mean,  there are a lot of people being bullied and much worse than what  that example  much worse than what I was harassment. Like that's legitimate harassment. Yeah. Yeah. People have been. You know, and we can talk about that, but there have been other,  other examples that are much worse, um, in the end, some have been taken offline, some have been taken offline, the bullying continued offline, and so that could, that can be. You know, pretty, pretty detrimental and friend as such. So if someone feels like they're being bullied, obviously, like if you feel like you're being bullied, reach out to somebody like Shelly or even myself, like I'm always happy to jump in and, and support people as well. But um, what, where, where do people actually report? Like how, how, what's the process look like if we're actually reporting something? On your profile, there's actually different places that you can go to, but we'll give one for example. So if, so in my case. When that person, um, sent that, sent that message, as soon as she sends the message in the, the, the conversation, there are three dots on the top corner, right?  If you hit that, those three dots immediately, you can do something. So there will be different options. You want to report this?  Do you want to block this? Do you no longer want to follow this person? It depends on what your relationship is with this person, but they'll ask you a different answer. Um, or do you want to block, uh, do you want to report? So I hit at that point, I hit, I want to report and then it'll give me different, different options. Okay. And you have to pick the option that relates to the situation.  Okay. So record,  record everything first, like take screenshots. Um, but I asked you for it. Okay. They're going to ask you for it. Okay. So take, take the screenshots you need to take,  report them through LinkedIn. Um, and then what are the consequences through LinkedIn if they're reported? So LinkedIn will either. So there's different things. I mean, I think LinkedIn has a long way to go in, in terms, but I mean, you've got to remember that there's a billion, over a billion people, right? So it's not like they can implement anything and it.  I just want to say that the blocking, I have to say this because a lot of people don't know this, but the blocking feature didn't come originally when LinkedIn started. Blocking feature came in about 2014 when a woman who was being harassed on LinkedIn won a lawsuit against LinkedIn. Okay. And because of that lawsuit that she won. Um, LinkedIn had to implement the block feature, right? So, every time LinkedIn does something, it's, it's huge. It's big. So, they, it doesn't happen overnight. So, the more that you have, the more they will respond to it. And, many people have been disappointed. You know, when I talk to people who feel that they've been bullied, they've been disappointed with some of the responses that come from LinkedIn. Like, it doesn't meet. The requirements. Mm-hmm. Of  being considered bullying or harassment. And so then when that happens, if LinkedIn is not gonna support you, that means LinkedIn is not going to do anything on,  on the end of that individual. Right? So that means it's in your hands  to do something and that's when the blocking and anything like that else that you can do.  Um, because if LinkedIn doesn't make a move and sometimes they don't. Then it's up to you to just protect yourself in that way, and I think the blocking feature at this point is basically the feature that you have to not  engage with that person. Now there have been some people, you know, there are people that go  above and beyond real heavy duty bullies who will make fake profiles. And when it's a fake profile, then, and you don't know, that's why when, when it comes to, um, weeding out these fake profiles, again, you can report it to LinkedIn. If it's a big profile, if you feel it's a big profile and there are really like, you can spot a big profile. If you really look. Because if that person has built a profile and they have two connections,  uh, you know, there's certain little things like that that you can, that you can kind of get an idea if you look close enough. So, you know, if you have had a bullying experience, and you just feel that that person may be somebody that's not going to stop or, and maybe you won't even know.  Just remember when these invitations to connect are coming through, make sure to do  your due diligence by looking at that person's profile, because you, you can be  you, you can be responsible and you can find those spammy. Um, those spammy connection requests and the, and, and, you know, there, I, I'd like to just give an example of what I mean. So there was a rabbit hole there. Sure.  So there was a connection of mine. Uh, who is, you know,  I was quite close to and a friend as well when I was living in Toronto  and there was a situation, uh, with an ex  and, um,  the ex was stalking her on LinkedIn, New Worship, obviously, um, and it got pretty bad because there were comments made  in order to have her fired from her job. Um, there were all kinds of, like, insults and, um, DMs and, and as soon as she would block, um, him, he would just do a new account. So, um, she did screenshots of all of these accounts and eventually LinkedIn listened to her, but at the beginning they were not listening to her. So she took it in her, in her own hands, like she reached out to me, which I was happy about and said, You know, this is happening to me and it's, it's, it's ruining me like I, I can't sleep, I can't eat. And I said, this is what you're going to do. This is what you're, you know, you have to make sure you're being diligent. You know, some people just accept connection requests, like, you know, they're falling from the sky and, and don't, It's not a,  you know, connection request when you're dealing with bullying behavior, you have no choice, but to be diligent when you're looking at the connection requests that are coming your way, unless, unless you know, or unless you're pretty, unless you can look at the profile and know immediately that, that it's fine. But if you're kind of doubt, then you don't want to do that. Use your gut instincts, have a bully because you know, bullies are smart. And even if you have mutual connections, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Cause like, you're right. Some people just accept anyone, you know? So even if you've got mutual connections, that might not mean anything. So you have to be very diligent. If you're dealing with a bully, don't think anything goes past them. And just remember that they can just come up like a chameleon and, and, and change their spots. And it's just the same bully just in a different, just in a different profile. But if you look deep enough, if you look, Diligent enough. Most of the time they haven't had a long time to build their connections. So if you just look at that one piece of evidence alone, you know, and just, you'll get it. You'll get it. You'll feel it. And I think that that's just one thing you can do. Um, and, uh, anyway, that the person that I was referring to that had that bullying case, you know, Went off of LinkedIn for a year and a half after being bullied  so much that she couldn't handle it, and it was so sad to, to, to see that happen to that degree. And,  and it's just so it's just important to be aware  that it exists and it happens and, um, and people take it online because they can use something like your job, something that you're close to something that's important to you. They can use that and what they're going to go after. And that's what makes LinkedIn attractive for bullies in that way, especially when it comes to using your. professional, the professional side to dig in and throw that knife or whatever you want to call it into the, uh, into the steak. I  love it.  I'm the worst metaphor person in the world, by the way. I mix up every single metaphor. So I was just waiting for what you were like, what's she going to say? Which, what are we throwing the knife into? Um, I love it. Um, if there's, okay, so You, you work with a lot of people who are, you know, new to LinkedIn, you work with folks to get them from, you know, kind of a basic level to kind of an expert level. What is the best reason we've, we've talked a lot about like, you know, some trials and tribulations here with LinkedIn, but what is really the best reason to use LinkedIn in your opinion? Community, the, the power of community. I mean, LinkedIn for me, well, it's all about community. I think. Communities are powerful. Um, and it's an incredible place to build community and I mean a global community. I'm a person who, you know, I've traveled, I, I just, I'm in diversity, equity, inclusion is another part of my, you know, portfolio, my, my expertise. So it's so important for me for that global community and even moving, like, when you think about it so I've been, you know, Since I'm on LinkedIn, I've moved probably four provinces, and I don't have all contacts, even coming to, you know, I'm in Nova Scotia now, from Toronto to Nova Scotia, I didn't have a community here. So what I did was I reached out. On linkedin and built that community so that when I came here, I could have some linkedin lattes with people and build at least that professional side and, and, you know, some have turned into be to be good friends  and that provided me with the support because I'm a people person. So, you know, it. Take that out of the equation and you're suddenly moving in moving somewhere where you don't have that community like I had an awesome community in Toronto, and an awesome community in Montreal and etc etc like, I mean I had my community. And so moving here with a business. And, you know, what do I do so actually LinkedIn was. The key player in setting up that community for me, um, because I was able to come here and already schedule those kind of meetings and already feel like I know people like when we actually like, I think I had seven copies lined up when I got here. And when we actually met. It was like, there was no awkwardness, there was like no, we just, it was like we knew each other. So there's a power in that, and when you're working with new grads like I have, you know, in university and college, like,  I,  They may be moving if they open their opportunities to moving to different places, this opens their opportunities for jobs.  And so, but many fear going to the unknown that they built community. And  that's how I get them to break that fear of not moving somewhere else  by building that community on LinkedIn so that they can continue building that community. offline once they get there. And so for me, it's, it's the power of, of community. Yeah. I think people need people like people need people. We are wired to need people. We are wired to connect, um, and to support each other. And I think You know, people who don't think they need people probably you need, if you're out there and you're listening right now and you think I don't need people, I'm great on my own. I call bullshit because you will be a hundred times better if you have a good community around you to support you. Um, I, yeah, I think that's true for everyone. Maybe you need community even more than everyone else does personally. Um, Yeah, and you be successful on LinkedIn, you need community because it's the community that's going to,  to help you to grow. You know the power on LinkedIn isn't  is really the second.  So, you know your first connections. Yeah. , but the power is really in the second connections because I can introduce you, I can tell somebody else, just like I was telling you earlier about different podcasts and, and, and yeah. And you know, I, it's the power of being able to share. It's the power of being able to, um, introduce It's the power. It's, it's, it's, it's the power in building community for each other. Like, and so, yeah, it's just, it's so powerful. It's just, yeah, it's, yeah, it reminds me almost of that quote. Um, the more I know, the more I realize I know nothing at all. Right. The more people you connect with, the more you learn, the more you realize, like, wow, like my world, your world is so small. There's so much out there. You know, so many, there's so many people, like a billion on LinkedIn.  And you can't be successful on LinkedIn if you, if you go in with the idea that you're going to do it alone. Right. LinkedIn was not meant for that. It's a networking site. So they base everything. On your ability to connect and engage with people, they they based everything that like ability score that I told you about. It's all based on on the power of  community. It's based on the power of helping others. Um,  that's what it's based on. So if you want your profile supported, if you want, you know, um, a stronger likeability score and to have a a, a stronger space and in LinkedIn, then the power is gonna rest. And how good you are with building those relationships, not doing it alone. Yeah. It's just not the platform that was built in that way, you know? Uh, I mean, the mission of LinkedIn was for professionals to help professionals advance.  So, uh, right there in itself, and that mission statement has never changed.  Some people create their own mission statements for LinkedIn, but LinkedIn actually has its own mission statement. Of course it does, yeah. They're, yeah, they're a business. And the mission statement is grounded in community. Um, yeah.  Just before we wrap up, for starters, thank you so much for joining me today. Um, is there any way for people like, we're going to obviously add all your websites and your LinkedIn connection, like everywhere you could possibly get a hold of Shelly, we're going to put it in the show notes. So never fear, you will be able to find her. Um, but do you have any actual like public trainings coming up or do you have any like information sessions or how can people learn more about how you can support them with LinkedIn? Yeah, I mean, right now, I mean, the best way is to, you know, to reach out on on LinkedIn, I have a services page there. And, um, I mean, right now I'm in the thralls of this book and getting that done. So, yeah, I mean, and I've been visiting podcasts like this. And, you know, I, yeah, I mean, LinkedIn is always the best place to, to,  I guess to connect. And because that's where I am and that's where I spend the majority of my time on social media I mean I know a lot of people will ask me what are your social media handles and. I have to think for a moment to actually get there  because on LinkedIn, I mean, among the other ones, maybe for social or connecting with family in New Brunswick, but other than that, LinkedIn is where I,  you can get to know me without even Yeah, you can get to know me before we actually even speak. So, uh, that's the place to connect. And I'm always happy to connect with people. Fantastic. Okay. Um, any, any final words, any, like, you know, just one more, a Columbo moment, just one more thing.  I just want, you know, LinkedIn is, uh, is very powerful. And this, you know, what I talked about in regards to bullying and harassment is just a precaution. It's just to say, you know, Don't go there blindsided. If you're looking for a job, it could show up with a potential employer. Uh, it can show up within your community. It can show up from a disgruntled colleague. It can show up with somebody who's just pure jealous of all your wonderful attributes. And just remember, it is a place with a lot of people, with a lot of diversity, which I think is amazing. But at the same time,  things can happen. It has a life of its own. So I just give that one piece of advice is that whether it's LinkedIn or any social media site, just go in with knowledge and go in with the idea that you're just gonna,  that you know and understand what is there.  And you're not going to go in and be blindsided, you're going to feel powerful. And so if something comes your way, you'll do be able to do something about it just like I have and just like many people have. And now those people that have come back after being bullied are much stronger for it and much more confident and much more and much  better at living LinkedIn life  with that awareness. And so it's actually something that is a good thing  to know it's not something to be scared about it's something to say, I'm empowering myself I'm building confidence, and I'm educating myself. Thank you With all of the things that I need to know to navigate LinkedIn successfully  and securely. And that's really what it comes down to. And you're never alone. And you're never alone. And reach out. And reach out. You know, it doesn't have to be Aaron or it doesn't have to be me. There's lots of people within your community that will be helpful and,  um, be, be able to just  be there if you, if you need to, to answer or need some answers or need some guidance. I mean, there are a lot of people on LinkedIn that have been there a long time, um, and, and know, uh, the ins and outs of. Getting help on LinkedIn.  And so just use it. Um, and don't, and, and do use LinkedIn. Just remember that if you are,  they just expect you to have it put the work in to, to provide any evidence or anything that can help your case. And that, that would, that's not different from anywhere else.  So if you're listening to this and you are not active on LinkedIn, consider this your sign that you need to be active on LinkedIn  because everyone's got a cool story to share. That's true. Yes, and it's a great place to, um,  brand and I, and, and as I said early on in the podcast, uh, LinkedIn is no longer optional. It's, um, it's expected. So yeah,  I mean, unless you're my husband and all you want to do all day is program and then everyone's just very happy for you to just sit in your little cave and program for 24 hours a day and that's fine. Nobody wants him on LinkedIn. Yeah, there are some people that will go on LinkedIn or don't believe they should have it should be on LinkedIn, but for the majority of us, we can benefit it benefit from it. Right, right, right, right.  It has been a pleasure, my lady.  Thank you very much for joining me. I always enjoy spending some time with you.  Thank you very much.  Chat soon. Chat soon. Thank you.

2. 

   16 Oct 2024

   The Art of Effective Leadership Coaching ft Laurie Fenske

   Welcome Laurie Fenske to "Weirdos in the Workplace"! Laurie embodies a lifelong philosophy of learning from every experience, embracing each challenge as an opportunity for growth. In 2016, Laurie pivoted her professional focus towards her true passion—coaching. Today, as a MCC level ICF certified coach, she offers bespoke solution-based coaching across North America and Europe. Laurie’s coaching sessions are energized and focused, aimed at significantly boosting productivity, enhancing leadership capabilities, improving team dynamics, and refining communication skills. Stay in Touch with Laurie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauriefenske/ https://www.instagram.com/fscgroup/ For more on Laurie and her Services: http://www.fscgroup.ca (http://www.fscgroup.ca) https://www.facebook.com/FSCGroupIncorporated Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. And I'm here with the lovely Lori Fenske. Say hi, Lori. Hi, Erin. Thank you for having me out here today. This is awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I'm super excited to have you on the show. Um, so Laurie embodies a lifelong philosophy of learning from every experience, embracing each challenge as an opportunity for growth. And in 2016, she pivoted her professional focus towards her true passion coaching today as an MCC level, ICF certified coach. She offers bespoke solution based coaching across North America and Europe. So I just want to pause there for a minute, Lori, because.  As an ICF certified coach myself, you know, as part of the board of the ICF Ottawa, I'm extremely passionate about coaching. And you know, that cause we've worked working together and we've been supporting each other and have known each other for almost eight years now. So almost since you started coaching, um, I just want to take a minute. To say congratulations for achieving that MCC level, because I know how difficult that really is. I've known people that have been going through that process and it is probably one of the harder things that you'll probably do, I think. for recognizing that. Yeah, it was tough. Um, it,  it is what it is and I'm glad to be on this side of it for sure. Yeah, definitely. Um, and the, for those of you who are listening who don't know what we're talking about, MCC is a master certified coach level with the ICF, the international coach federation. Um, and you re you need at least 5, 000 hours in order to achieve that. 2500 hours, 500 coaching hours. Yeah. Um,  I feel like it's 40 continuing education credits. It's working with a mentor coach for at least 10 hours, um, for  preview, previewing your, your client, uh, recordings, how you show up and then an exam at the end of it. So yeah, it was, it was, um, it was a long journey, but, uh,  completely worthwhile. I'm so grateful that I, that I've completed that. Yeah. And I know from a few other people, friends who've, who've gone through it, they say that the 2, 500 hours is like the easy part,  you know, that's the easy part. It sounds like a lot of hours and it is, but really it's, um, it's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to getting that certification, because you have to be like,  so good at demonstrating those competencies. And, um, just, you know, in that same vein. So, after I got through it, I had some ideas on how to set people up for success, because it is, you know, grueling isn't an exaggeration. And so I actually put together an MCC mentorship program that isn't just about. The recordings, because that's often what mentor coaching is, is listening to the recordings, giving you feedback. But I've made it about everything, right? About the hours, the recordings, the exam, the competencies, all of it. Because I think that people should go in with eyes wide open. And I, I didn't necessarily, which I think was part of the, part of the big mountain to climb. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Your expectations need to be set, I think, in order to have the resilience you need to keep going. Yeah. Right. It's like, I don't know if I remember when I was like pregnant with my first child  example, some people can relate to maybe, um, I, you know, they say it's going to be nine months. And so, you know, you think that's the end date and then all of a sudden you're overdue and then like those last two weeks are literally torture. Right. But if anyone, everyone told you it was a 10 month process that nine and a half weeks wouldn't feel or nine and a half months wouldn't feel so bad. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Setting expectations. Yeah,  100%. So, um, okay. So folks, we're going to really talk today about Um, coaching, coaching leaders specifically, um, Laurie, I, I, you know, I, I introduced Laurie, but I really didn't introduce Laurie. So, you know, I've known Laurie for quite a while. We met, um, like I said, almost eight years ago. And Laurie, I think you're one of the most competent, um, driven coaches and resilient coaches that I've ever met, honestly. And I'm, I'm. I'm just, I'm not just saying that, you know, I don't just say stuff, right. Um, you have like a persistence and a, like, it's like a focus that very few people have, and I know that that's why your clients love you so much. So, um, I really look forward to hearing what you, what all your thoughts are around leaders of leaders.  Absolutely. Thank you so much. That means a lot. I have a huge amount of respect for you, Aaron. So that means a lot coming from you. So thank you.  I appreciate you. Um,  okay. So, you know, I'd love to like, let's begin with like the landscape right now, you know, um, we have a very complex world that feels like it's going very, very fast. Um, I think a lot of people out there will resonate, you know, with that, like, You know, kind of like the constant scramble and we're always told, we're always like told that, you know, if we're not achieving some kind of work life balance, we're doing it wrong. Right.  Um, what are the, what are the challenges that you're seeing leaders come in to you with, like, what are they struggling with in their core? Well, um, you talk about work life balance and actually, um, I call it work life harmony because I don't know that those two are ever in balance,  but if they can work harmoniously, so giving a little bit this week, getting it back again next week, and that for sure is something, and, and, um, You know, the craziness of remote. So I'm sitting here in Sherwood Park, you're sitting there in Ontario, um, and yet I feel like you're across, you know, my desk from me.  With that, um, with that remote work comes just this expectation of never turning it off, right? Never turning it off. And, and so I do see work life harmony a lot. And, um, I, I talk to people about, you know, um, Getting selfish, right? Like,  pre COVID, nobody expected you to work 14 hour days from, from your home office. You know, you were commuting, you were socializing, you were doing all of this. So, we do talk a lot about, about slowing down to, to kind of get forward.  But as it relates like to the executives or the leaders of leaders that I'm seeing, you know, there's kind of, um, I guess, five top competencies or skill sets that people seem to be really gravitating towards. Emotional intelligence and, um, emotional intelligence isn't just a buzzword. You know, it's, it's something where people really need to know, um, how to manage their personal emotions. They, they need to know how they're showing up. They need to understand the dynamics of those in their, in their, in their life. In their circle, um, communication, you know, being a visionary and, and not only having the visionary, the vision in your own mind, but being able to communicate it transparently and get people energized by it, um, elevating performance, nobody wants to do poorly, but how do great leaders get the best out of themselves, their team, the organization as a whole. Um, I think self awareness is huge. The ability to really  understand, um, ourselves, but, but also how do we interact with others, then how are we showing up with them? Um, and then the resilience, uh, you know, I talk a lot about, you know, You want to work with a leader who can get through a storm,  but not  not know what to do after the storm is a fail, right? They need to have a strategy. They need to be forward thinking, um,  nimble, flexible to to really come out the other side with a plan in place that they can then communicate and, you know, get embraced and continue and continue forward.  What kind of feelings do leaders, um, at any level, any of your clients have when they're coming to you for support? Um,  I think a lot is humility,  understanding that, um, there  is, you know, coaching is not psychology. I mean, it's, it's, it's not therapy. It's a partnership.  And my style of coaching is, uh, you know, through powerful questions, finding solution.  So people, I think first come with a sense of humility, um, having to reach out a bit of vulnerability, which I think is actually a very attractive characteristic in a leader. Um,  and I wouldn't say hopelessness, but an, an awareness, like I can't keep doing what I'm doing. How do I find something new to do?  Right. Yeah, they found they've hit, they've hit the end of their capabilities or the capacities in some way. Yeah, they know they need help. Uh,  do they always know they need help? Not necessarily, not necessarily. Um,  in some cases I'm brought in to an organization and people are chosen to be part of a coaching program.  Coaching programs are often part of a reward system, a merit system. You're seen as an  overproducer, um, you're seen as a high producer or high achiever. And so coaching, you know, is put in front of you to just elevate you even more. But sometimes people come to it not understanding that, not understanding it's a time of celebration, but rather it's like, Oh, are you the principal? Cause I feel like I'm at the principal's office. Um, and they're, you know, what coaching. My style of coaching is not for any, for everyone. Um, and so there's a lot, some coaches call it a chemistry meeting, um, but that get to know you, you know, I want to hear about them. I tell them my background. I tell them my belief, what, how I see coaching, my belief in coaching. Um, How I got to be, you know, on this side of the desk, and if it's not a fit, then I'm grateful. I have quite, um, a network of coaches that have different styles than I, and  I introduced them to somebody else, because if it's not a fit, it's not going to work for anybody. No. Um, yeah, definitely. Like with a positivist group, we have a coach fit guarantee, like a coaching guarantee. So, you know,  if, if it's not a good fit, you know, we'll restart your program with a new coach, or if we don't have a great coach for you, we'll find one. Right.  Um, and I think, I think it's so important and I think it's. Um, and I feel like we learned this the hard way, or I've learned this the hard way that if you don't get a good fit coach fit, then it, it, it really, you, you can't have a successful program at all. I think it's yeah. Like second only probably to the client's own desire for coaching,  I think.  Um, yeah, yeah,  I always tell my clients, like, we're going to work hard, we're going to do some heavy lifting and we're going to have some fun because I never want a client to be like, Oh, my God, I'm seeing Laurie today,  like, you want it to be something that they look forward to that they're excited to share their achievements with. And I have certainly, um, hung on to clients too long. I know that it's part of the learning and building out a successful coaching practice. So, um, yeah, that fit is just so important. So important.  And, uh, usually it's better to quit too soon than too late. It's something I've learned more recently and still probably going to be learning, you know, for the rest of my life, most likely. Yeah. Yeah. There are some clients that just coaching isn't for them. That just isn't. They don't, if they don't believe in the value of it, um, it's not going to work. Not because it's, you know, um, um, like a magic wand, but you have to,  I don't push it. I don't pull I'm shoulder to shoulder with my client in their coaching journey. And some people need to be pushed or pulled. And that just, I don't think that that works as well either, but  yeah, there's a real element of autonomy and self determination when it comes to coaching. And the client has to drive the process. And that's definitely part of an  ICF mindset as well. And I see if, um, Certified coaches mindset. So,  um,  do you have any good stories? Like obviously not naming any names, but I'm so curious, um, to hear a little bit about, you know, some of the experiences you've had with clients and I'm sure folks listening to this would love to hear, you know, what, what are the kinds of, you know, Developments that you've that you've observed. Yeah. Great question. Aaron and the one that comes to mind and I have her permission because as you know, coaching is 100 percent confidential. Um, but I do have her permission to share this story just because I think it's really cool.  So I often, um, at the onset of. coaching. We'll ask a client, you know, what's the legacy you want to leave? Like, how do you want to be known? Because I think we get so committed to like the here and now we forget to think longer term.  And, um, she worked in a,  in a male dominated, more seasoned male dominated environment. And she was the only female at the C suite table at that point.  And so I asked her the question and, and invited her to reflect on it. That was kind of, you know, an action item for her between now and, and when we met the next time. And she came back into the, into the meeting. Um, and, and she was so excited and which made me so excited. And she said, Lori, I came up with my legacy. I know what I'm building. I know what I want to build. And I was like, okay, what is that? She said, I want to be known as a powerhouse.  And, and I just thought that that was so cool. And, and so as we got talking, you know, as the only female, she would be asked to get coffee or take notes or, you know, whatever, just  not, I don't think from a mean perspective, but it just made sense to the other people around the table and she said, I want to be a powerhouse and I want to work on characteristics that would build a powerhouse. She said, because. I don't want them to be scared of me. I don't want them to say I'm scared to ask for coffee. She said, I wanted them to respect me so much. It wouldn't even cross their minds. And, um,  she's still an existing client. She's, uh, you know, been with me typically coaching programs or, you know, about a year. Um, so she's, she's been with me for that length of time. And it is so exciting to see. I think that's a really beautiful thing. And that's why I'm so happy that, you know, her show up as a powerhouse and the success that she's having because of her mindfulness and intention. I'm being seen as a powerhouse. That's beautiful. What a transformation for her. Um,  I I would love to be a fly on the wall in one of those meetings and watch her in action and see what, like, what kind of behaviors are she demonstrating, you know, as a result of that coaching with you,  that would be so interesting. How do you make someone respect you so much that they wouldn't even think about asking for coffee? It's beautiful.  And of course, you know, we dug deep into what characteristics. How are those characteristics displayed and how do you know that you're displaying them, you know, coaching? I mean, we, we like to take one piece to set people up for success and really focus on that,  um, change of that one habit of how she was showing up and then change something else about how she was showing up. And yeah, it's been a lot of fun, uh, really a lot of fun to watch her for sure.  And it probably takes you back to the five, uh, your five. Yeah. Um, top five behaviors or what are we, what are we calling that? Um, I think the leadership competencies. Okay, sure. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I recently was doing some research for a project that I'm doing in my private practice and, and Forbes even has, you know, like research on this about, you know, what leaders are struggling with and, and it felt affirming that the people I work with. Yeah. This is, you know, global, right? I don't just hear it from one or two clients, I hear it from every client in my portfolio or most clients in my portfolio, but this is like a global thing.  Oh, it totally is. Yeah. This is a human thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're all experiencing the world right now. And I don't know. Like leadership is leadership almost anywhere. I don't know. I mean, obviously there's certain cultural competencies that you need to learn if you're interacting interculturally or in, in different cultures, but, um, but the like people are people, right? Like emotional intelligence is emotional intelligence. It doesn't matter where you live.  Well, and I think we're all leaders, and that's why, you know, I kind of articulate, um, the clients most prominent, um, or most predominantly in my, in my portfolio are executive, like C suite, um, or leaders of leaders, because I think we all lead. I mean, I,  as an individual contributor, I can still lead, I can still impact. But I think it's leaders having to be mindful of their own selves. But also,  you know, all of those around them and how they are leading them to greatness.  Now, you, we started to talk a little bit about respect in that previous client example that you had. Um, something I think a lot about lately and you know that I've been a kind of evangelist of leadership development, um, since certainly since we've known each other, uh, and something that crosses my mind every now and then, and I'm kind of curious what you think about this is  do we know how to lead leaders? You know, do. Do leaders know how to lead people? If every single person's a leader,  do we know how to lead leaders? You know, and where does the,  you know, one of the things, one of, I can't remember what the quote was, but it's something like to be a great leader, you need to be a great follower.  And I think sometimes, you know,  there's a tension that I, that I see a lot of the time, um, in organizations around, you know,  the, you know, receiving feedback. So leaders are receiving feedback. Sometimes they're really good at taking feedback. And they're very, um, empathic, right. They're trying to serve everyone and stretching themselves then. And, you know, we know that we can't make everyone happy. Right.  Um, and then people who are at the individual contributor level, often younger employees have a lot of ideas, you know, and I remember I was the same when I was a younger employee. You know, I, um, I thought I could do everything better than my bosses.  And then it's only through experience that I realized like the actual complexity of decision making within organizations is  way harder than you think it is. Probably there's a lot more that you need to consider, um, than, than you realize you do. And so are we teaching people to become leaders too soon? Do we know how to lead people who believe that they are leaders?  That's kind of the  So my background was completely in financial services, where I spent my, my corporate Canada career  and, and there was a tendency in financial services  because financial services is so much about sales that people can sell really well, well, obviously they can manage, they can lead and that's not always the case. Right. Um, you can have some of the top sales people in the world who are promoted into roles of, of, you know, people responsibility and and they don't do it, um, They don't do it. Well, or it takes them a while to get up and running with it. A bunch of different scenarios.  Um,  so I think, you know, are we are we getting people to be people leaders too soon was kind of your question. And I think we are if we aren't setting them up for success, we can be if we aren't setting them up for success and really understanding the expectations made what's expected of me as a leader. Um,  and, and being, um,  being so involved in their success as their leader.  That that you really you're you're. You're, you're training the habits that, that they'll need, but they also have to have that internal desire to build out those habits as well.  Yeah. And context, like, I feel like  we need so much more context now than we used to in roles. How do you feel about that?  Um, from, you mean the roles, responsibilities, expectations? At every level of the organization.  I feel like context is, is.  Um, much more necessary than it used to be. Not only because people expect it, you know, people expect, you know, I want to know why everything, every decision made,  but like they need it almost, you know? And I think that you can offer people an understanding without having to divulge because I mean, transparency, yes, you, you need transparency, but you can't be transparent about every single decision. Right and and sometimes there is stuff that can't be talked about. Um, but I think if I and again, it comes down. Really? I hate to keep, you know, bringing it back to those top 5, but if if I'm a leader and I'm communicating and I'm helping my teams understand this is all that I can communicate, but this is legitimately. I think that people will respect that and, and they'll be okay with,  we don't know more because there's that trust and credibility that's been established through all of those, you know, different, um, relationship building exercises as well that a leader has to go through.  What's the best way for a leader to, you know, to, to actually get the true respect of their team? Um,  there's so much that,  how much time do you have? Um, I think it's a little bit, I think it's a little bit around, uh, you know, understanding themselves. So self awareness. Understanding their strengths and areas of development. Um, but I think it's, it's really building that trust incredible relationship right out of the gate and getting to know people. They're not just a team member. They're not just  an individual contributor, but. How do they fit the overall mold or the overall necessity or needs of the organization? I think it's relationship building first and foremost. I worked for a brilliant man one time, just a brilliant, brilliant guy.  It was like my first day. And he said, okay, Lori, just help me understand when I send you an email, do I have to be all like fluffy and ask how your day is? Or can I just tell you what I need? And, and, you know, as silly as it sounds, If he had spent a bunch of time asking, like how my day was, I don't need that. I don't operate well under that. And so he just kind of cut right to the chase. And I think if I know that someone needs a bit more,  how was your day  as a leader? I should, I should give them that so that I can help them show up as the best version of themselves. But I think it's okay to ask the question. How do you want me to communicate with you? Right.  Yeah. It's like, what is it? The, um,  the platinum role.  Treat people how they want to be treated, right? Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,  something you just said there triggered something for me. Oh yeah. You're not like a super touchy feely person necessarily. Like you don't need that. The fluff it's like, let's just get to the point. And that is something I've always appreciated about you because I'm the girl who has, who writes the email out and it's like super direct. And then I have, before I press send, I have to go back and put. all the fluff in  to the email  so that I don't seem like a cold robot, um, or whatever. But, and there's very few people that I can just, you know, de mask, I think,  right. Because it's not an attitude. It's not, um, for me, it's not, um, it's not a negative. It's just, it's just, it's just my first instinct. And I, I'm, I'm like a pretty chill person, you know, that.  But the whole point I'm making by this is you're not a fluffy person. I'm not a fluffy person, necessarily.  Although I pretend to be one on TV and, uh, we are both huge proponents of emotional intelligence. All that to say, well, intelligence is not fluffy, you know, and I would love for you to just say a few words about that. Well, I think that, um, there's a difference between being emotionally, um, intelligent  and, and, um,  hugging people, right? Like, like, I think  you have to show up emotionally dynamic enough to the people that you're speaking with. Yeah. But you don't have to put, you know, flowers at the end of an email. And, um, my style and, you know, there's a million different kind of, um, assessments out there. My style is very much Uh, in one assessment, it's called a pioneer. So if you think of the word pioneer, what is, what does that look like? Right? And that's, that's entirely me. And obviously, coaching is not about directing. It's not about leading. It's not about bossing. It's, it's about partnering. And so I do have to, and I don't waver on my own belief system.  But I do have to temper my directness  with certain clients. Um, and, but we talk about that, right? Um, I had sent an email to a client and after I sent it, it was like, Oh, that might've been a bit, that might've been a good one for Aaron, not such a good one for this client. Right.  And so I just followed up and said, look, like, sorry, if that sounded, um, abrasive or whatever word I used, I said,  I just, I wanted to get my thoughts over to you. And I just did it, you know, perhaps not as completely as I could have. And I apologize if that was offensive. And let's talk about it the next time we meet, because why would I run from that? Right?  And, um,  she actually wrote back and said, no, no, that's that works for me. That works well for me.  But I think if I was in a leadership position and I did that, and I didn't have the vulnerability to go back and say, oops, sorry, let's talk about this, or the self awareness to even know that you did it in the first place. Well, okay. Yes. Yeah. But that's where leaders can fail. Yeah. I know that wasn't right, but let's not talk about it. Maybe it didn't go noticed. Oh, it went noticed. All right. Right. Your team is going to notice stuff, but you notice everything by the way, but step in pretty much. Yeah. Have the conversation, right? Have the conversation. And I think that's what, that's what leaders need to leaders of leaders, executive, they need to do better at having conversation. Holy moly. Well, I mean, it's so, it feels like especially certain sectors, uh, and certain industries  that can be really difficult for a lot of people. Like I've heard from men in particular.  You know, and,  you know, I feel like this is just sort of like a, a matter of context and maybe some training and whatever, but, you know, I've, I've, I've heard from men who say that they're actually kind of afraid to say something wrong. You know, they're afraid they're going to step on a landmine. Um, I don't think, I think it's, you know, we need practice. We need to, you know,  um, what, what do you, what do you say to people who are worried about stepping on a landmine in the workplace.  Um,  my go to is always what's the best possible outcome from that conversation. What are you looking to achieve? Yeah. And if you can articulate that at the onset of the conversation. So this is what we need to talk about.  Um, does that make sense to you getting agreement? That's going to keep you focused on what you do need to talk about and and potentially not always, but potentially keep you away from the landmines. Right.  Um, it is, it, it is, I would say, a far more, uh, sensitive time in, in corporate wherever. Yeah. Um, and, but I, I think it's, it's the talking about it, right? And if, if you do stand on a landmine, don't run, talk about it. Wow. Don't know where that came from. I.  Apologize. Be sincere. Right? Yeah. I don't think anybody I know, I can't imagine people going into a conversation wanting to stamp on landmines. So when it happens,  take responsibility. Oops.  We're all leaders. We're also all human. We've already talked about that. Right? And so how do you recover from that? I think communication is, you know, a powerhouse  diamond that isn't utilized enough. Yeah. Mm hmm.  And I sometimes wonder like reputation, like, you know, I think this is probably a time where reputation is so important, like your professional brand, because if you have a reputation for honesty, transparency, for being direct, like direct, but kind, you know what I mean? Like those. There's no question that you're giving those things, those qualities. Totally. You can, you know, when, when you, when you screw up. Because we're all apt to at some point, you're probably gonna give you a given a little more grace, you know? Yeah. Well, it comes down, I think you're into that trust and credibility. Yeah. So if you have, and we have a. a solution focused selling program that we facilitate. And it talks a lot about building trust and credibility. If you've got that trust and credibility set up. Build with a client, they'll tolerate some errors. Yeah.  If you don't, they'll have like, uh, just a zero tolerance. And so spending more time and that's what I said about, you know, leaders, like stepping into leadership, step,  spend time communicating with your team, understand them, build that trust and credibility. Cause with that will come some grace. Yeah. Absolutely. plane.  So how do you know if someone calls you and they're like, you know, I'm thinking about coaching, you know, how, how can it support me? Whatever. You're having that initial conversation. How do you know, um, when the coaching, when they're, whoa, why, where am I talking? How do you know if, if they're at the right place, um, in time for coaching, like, how do you know that they're ready?  Um, there's a lot of, um,  information that can be gathered in that initial phone call or initial email. Um,  but we have a, we've just come up with just, we've, we've just completed this coaching readiness assessment tool, and it's an online assessment tool that that really digs into more, but specifically those 5 areas of focus.  And if there's a gap and I have people way, I'm surrounded by people way smarter than me that could do the coding on this. So it was not me. Um, but it'll, it'll come back to you and say, okay, here's where you, you scored here. Here's your assessment results on those 5 areas and click here to, to, you know, set up a 30 minute conversation with Lori. And  that, you know,  That tool partnered with that 30 minute conversation is eye opening for both myself and the prospect of prospective client. Yeah, totally. Um, so  I think that's amazing for starters. So we'll definitely have that in the show notes. So folks who are listening, um, make sure that you look in the show notes and take Lori's evaluation, especially if you're curious about coaching. Absolutely.  And, and by the way, I think, I think that, uh, this is probably like a fair warning. Everyone has gaps. Like everyone. No, no. Remember I met that person. She had no gaps. Oh yeah, yeah. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. Laurie met one person who had no gaps whatsoever. Yeah. Um, there's one person. But if you're not that one person,  then you, um, by the way, you have gaps. And so do I, my first, the first leadership 360 that I ever did was like soul sucking. I'm not perfect. This is awful.  You know, and then you sit with it and you process it and you realize, yeah, maybe there's some truth in this.  And, you know, people like the 360s,  I love those  because golden nugget after golden nugget after golden nugget. And if you can get  the perspective of others  in a, in a respectful and honoring manner. Why wouldn't you take that? Right. Yeah. Um, I've done some 360s that were, they were, they were tough.  And, and people will respond one of two ways. This is a dumb idea. Why did we even do it? Or what am I really seeing here? What can I do? Laurie, let's build out and that's, you know, the 360s build out a lot of coaching conversations because what do we know now about the perspective of others? Whether it's your truth or not, that's not what's here. It's the perspective of others and how do you have to show up slightly differently  to change that perspective. It's a powerful conversation. I love those. Well, I love all the conversations, but I really, really, really like the 360. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the 360s are a lot of fun. And I know sometimes they get like kind of a bit of a bad reputation because they can be done poorly. I think there is.  That is possible. Um, so if you're out there thinking like you either hate 360s, you probably have just experienced a bad one. Um, and if you're thinking about a 360, make sure you do your due diligence and ask some questions about it first in the process. And if you have any, uh, questions, obviously Lori and I are happy to help with that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, I think it's a super eyeopening, uh, conversation for sure. All right. So my final question for you, Laurie, is,  um, if there was one thing that you want people to know about  a co taking a coaching program,  and especially if they're a leader,  what's the most important thing they need to know to prepare themselves? Only one.  That's what I'm trying to sort through. Okay, I'm going to say one, but I'm going to filter in like 14 other ideas. Okay. Right, right, right, right. No, no, no.  So you have to understand that coaching  is really about changing a habit system. So how do you habitually show up as a leader today?  What slight adjustments do you make to show up slightly different tomorrow to have a slightly different outcome? Um, it's not losing 20 pounds in a week. This is a slow and steady and very intentional.  process with unbelievably  huge ROI at the back end of it.  Yes.  Um, unbelievably huge ROI. I've personally gone through that. Uh,  I hate the T word, but transformation, you know,  it's overused. Um, but that personal development process and coaching literally changed my life. Like,  yeah, literally changed my life. Yes. There's a quote by Michelangelo. And I don't have it right in front of me, so I'm going to butcher it a little bit, but it's something like I saw an angel in the marble  and I chiseled to set it free. We all  have angels within us, but it's  meaningful conversation. impactful discussion that will allow us to find it to really impact others. And, and what a powerful position that is.  Absolutely. If you can believe, like truly believe to your core, you know, that you are a valuable, beautiful, powerful human being,  like,  you know, how much is that worth to you? Right.  How much could that be worth? Yeah. Um, yeah.  Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much for inviting me, Erin. I was very excited not only to reconnect with you, but just to be part of all the beautiful work you're doing. I, I watch you from the side and all the things, all the balls you have in the air. You just continue to make impact daily. So thank you for what you do. Oh, I appreciate you so much. Thank you, Lori.

3. 

   9 Oct 2024

   #Throwback: The Truth About Executive Presence with Eleonore Eaves

   In this #throwback episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, Erin interviews Eleanore Eaves, a brilliant strategist, writer, and coach, about executive presence. Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction and upcoming podcast announcement 2:00 - Eleanore's background and introduction to executive presence 5:00 - Building and nurturing executive presence 9:00 - Eleanore's personal evolution and role models in leadership 13:00 - Diversity in executive positions 15:00 - Advice for accessing leadership positions 16:00 - The role of appearance in executive presence 17:00 - Closing quote and final thoughts Key Points: - Executive presence is about personal brand, confidence, strategic mindset, authenticity, and personal power - It's not just about appearance, but how you present yourself as a leader - Building executive presence requires honest self-assessment and identifying areas for improvement - There's no one-size-fits-all approach; executive presence should be tailored to individual strengths and organizational fit - The importance of diversity in executive roles and strategies for accessing leadership positions - The value of finding a sponsor who speaks about you in rooms of power - While character is crucial, appearance still plays a role in executive presence The episode concludes with a powerful quote: "She remembered who she was, and then the game changed," Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble! Contact Eleanore Eaves: Website: eavescoaching.com Stay tuned for Erin and Eleanore's upcoming podcast on modern leadership and decision-making! Script Erin: [00:00:00] Welcome my friends to yet another episode of weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our wacky and wonderful world today. I'm your host, Erin Patchell. And this week we're doing things a little bit differently. We are going to have a throwback episode. Back in 2023, your favorite episode was on executive presence with Eleanor Eves, the wonderful, inspiring. Amazing. Eleanor Eves, my friend, also one of my colleagues on the ICF international coach federation, Ottawa board amazing person. And we dive into the strategic side of executive presence how to be your full self in today's complex business environments. And I'm really even more excited to share with you that Eleanor and I are starting yet another podcast to be titled a couple months from now. We're going to be launching this and it's all about our modern [00:01:00] and complex leadership environments, how to make really hard decisions as leaders, and how to avoid the kind of herd mentality or echo chambers that, that sometimes As human beings, we can tend to fall into and really elevating the thinking and the context through which we're making really good decisions as business leaders. So that's what we're doing. I'm really excited about that partnership. And we're just going to be dripping out a little more information leading up to the launch. And I'll leave you with a quote as I often do on Weirdos in the Workplace. This one is by Lily Tomlin, the amazing Lily Tomlin. And Lily says, the road to success is always under construction. And isn't that true? So without further ado, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't ever stay out of trouble.[00:02:00] All right, folks, let's get started. So Eleanor is one of the most interesting people that I know. She's a brilliant strategist, writer, and coach. Her resume includes 15 years working For profit and non profit organizations, London School of Economics, King's College London, and the Government of Canada. Eleanor founded her own consultancy, Eve's Coaching not that long ago. Hey? Correct. Yeah. Yep. And I like to think you do things a little bit differently. I like to think so too. So I'm really glad that you're here to talk about the subject executive presence, because, between my blue collar upbringing and my ADHD, I feel like I've definitely had to learn the hard way about the subject. And to be honest, I feel like I [00:03:00] still struggle with it a little bit, even though I've been in, and been in business development sales for a long time. To me, it is still, it's still like putting on a bit of a mask. So I love to just hear, how did you learn about this and how did it become such a strong focus for you? Eleonore: Oh, darling, come on down. No. You would be the perfect person to be covering this topic. In a nutshell, executive presence is not just about how you look or your background or any of that, right? It's your personal brand. It's your confidence. It's your strategic mindset. It's your authenticity. It's your personal power. It's everything combined and your background and anything, you might have experienced in the past That shouldn't really play into it unless it has made you who you are today in the form you want to be. So that's what we're going to be talking about when we discuss executive presence, is what kind of person do you want to project? What kind of leader do you [00:04:00] want to be? And what does that look like for you? Because everybody has to do this a little bit differently. And as you said, how did I come about today? to doing this? I always thought, growing up that executive presence was about a look, less Eleonore (2): about the character and less about the individual. But what did executives look like? To be perfectly honest, when we were growing up, not to age us, at that point in time, neither of us would have really made up the majority of executives. Unfortunately, we still do not today as well, but we're making some changes. Erin: Definitely. I want to Eleonore (2): be. Erin: Yeah. No, I was just going to say I'm really glad to hear you talk a little bit about like authenticity and bringing your personality into it because I feel like that's something that I definitely preach about a lot and I'm glad to hear that it's not just my imagination that this is, that this is [00:05:00] scaling into positions of power. Absolutely. Eleonore (2): Absolutely. This is why you'd be a great coach in this. I'm serious. You've absolutely mastered it from the very first day I met you. I remember just being in awe, right? You have this natural way of communicating with people and connecting. And that's all part of the executive presence. It's how you're presenting yourself. Erin: You are so sweet, honestly. Eleonore (2): No, I'm just very honest. I call it how it is. Erin: I appreciate it. Yeah, so obviously it's no secret that executive presence is really important to building a leader's credibility and, people listen to you differently and consider your opinions differently. So tell me a little bit about how to, how do you build that? How do you nurture that in yourself? Eleonore (2): First, take a look at your current state. Really have a very raw sense and understanding of who you are, [00:06:00] right? It really does require some honest self assessment and awareness. Because at the end of the day, you're only kidding yourself. Then with coaching with myself or any other executive coach, what we would really look at is to identify areas of improvement. And by that, who do you want to be? How do you want others to view you as a leader? And even if you're not a leader today, what does that look like for you down the road? Right? Eleonore: So Eleonore (2): even if you're not in an executive role today, but you want to be in the future, how do you project yourself so other people intuitively view you as the right fit? Not because of your gender, or your race, or anything like that, because I know we, that, that could be a completely different conversation as to, the executive makeup of all of that. But in terms of how you present yourself, what does that look like? Not just in terms of your clothing as well. [00:07:00] But what kinds of words are you using? What's your strategy? When people look at you, do they view you as being diplomatic? As being out there? What is the approach? So then we, based off of that, we find the areas that you could improve upon. We develop a strategy to get you there, an approach. We practice it, we tweak it as needed. Then we celebrate your successes once you get to that point that you are truly satisfied with it. Erin: That's very interesting, actually. I like I'd never really thought about. Aspiring to an executive role in terms of, your personal style. So just to clarify I've got a very unique personal style, so that I may not be suited to every executive role in the world or every. Organization in the world, but as a career coach I'm not a career coach, but I've worked with so many career coaches and I [00:08:00] know they're really focused on a best fit. So does that apply in this space as well? I assume. Eleonore (2): A hundred percent, right? No one is going to be a hundred percent great fit for everything. You have your friends, you have your nemeses, you have your allies, you have your detractors, you have different spheres of people. A person who could, a person like, let's say, Steve Jobs. Great at Apple. Fantastic. Might not be the best field hockey coach. You never know. Yeah. Erin: He's not alive anymore, so we'll count him out now. But maybe you never know. But yeah, I totally hear what you're saying, for sure. Eleonore (2): So it doesn't mean that one is right or wrong. And that's the other thing we need to take apart is there is no right or wrong. Our person shows up in an executive sense. Even if it's completely different, that might be what the organization needs at [00:09:00] that point in time. Because what have worked in the past won't always work in the future. And in fact, probably shouldn't. That means you're not evolving. That means your organization isn't changing. So every once in a while, you do need to shake things up. You need a rebel in there. Erin: I feel like that is so true now more than ever. Eleonore (2): So it's being true to yourself at the end of the day. And being really honest with who you are, what you want that to look like. And what is the right fit for you? It's not just about what is the fit for the organization, but is this really the right fit for you? Erin: That makes a lot of sense. So I'm curious, how did, like, how did this come to be for you? What was your evolution of your thinking around this? Did you have Great role models in the past or? Eleonore (2): Yes. I was very lucky to have had one of the world's best leaders ever as both a former manager and as a friend now, I'd like to [00:10:00] say her name is Laura Kenny and she was one of the higher ups at Raytheon. She was one of the execs and I absolutely adored everything about her, in a healthy way, right? Of course. But for the first time ever, I saw that you could really be your true self. She was as graceful as Audrey Hepburn, smart as a whip, and just kind and empathetic. And that was her executive presence. She showed that you could be all of those things and also have incredible style. Just an absolute fashionista and, working in a realm that was very much male dominated. Raytheon is a defense company. Yeah. But again, this was a woman who could command the respect of any room she walked into. It was intelligence. It was empathy. It was wit. It was a sense that if you [00:11:00] were on her team, you wanted to do better. You wanted to be better. She encouraged you to. improve not just your output for the company, but your personal development as a human. Erin: Holy crap. This is like an amazing testimonial. Like Laura, if you're out there, I am a huge fan now. And yeah, no, that's like seriously though. But don't you want everyone? I know as a lead, like as a leader, that is how I wish people, or I hope that people will someday. Speak about me. And that is the tension. I feel like that's the intention we need to put out in the universe Eleonore (2): a hundred percent. And we luckily we're starting to have some of those conversations now. Eleonore: So Eleonore (2): when we're looking at executive fit, we're also looking at emotional intelligence. We're starting to really look at the full package of what a person brings. Because that, you're absolutely right, a person like her [00:12:00] could really motivate a team to outperform every other team, and we did. And we took pride in that, but it didn't feel like a horrible endeavor to do that. It didn't feel like we were working overtime. Overall, we had that energy to continue to work that hard because work was enjoyable. For the first time ever, Mondays were fun. Yeah, it wasn't just a paycheck. Erin: And teams get set back so much when people leave. So if you have a leader who can keep people on the team and keep them, not just keep them motivated, but just keep them there present, that's everything these days. Eleonore (2): Absolutely. And we could definitely go into the whole financial chat about what that costs an organization, Eleonore: both Eleonore (2): in terms of intelligence, labor, money for onboarding all of that. You're absolutely right. It is a huge loss to any organization. [00:13:00] Erin: So the conversation about getting women or getting more diversity into leadership positions and executive positions. Because, it's still male dominated the majority of executives are still men, white men. And if they're not, if they're not white men, then they're white women, I'm just curious what your thoughts are around, getting more diversity around the executive table. Eleonore (2): Great question. And I think the approach needs to be very specific to the region right in Nordic countries and Scandinavian countries, we definitely see that the quota system works very well for them. It's well adopted. But there's also to a, we could talk about the differences within the demographics of those regions versus ours, but I think the important thing is finding out what your actual goal is, if you're actually committed [00:14:00] to those goals and it's not just a checkbox, then having some very hard and serious conversations. within the organization to try to see what that means. It's going to be different things for different organizations. And we could talk about the merits of having the quota system in place, but you're absolutely right. One way or another, things need to change. It's not just the right thing to do. It is the strategically right thing to do. Erin: So if I'm a person of, I'm not a person of color, but if I was a person of color, What would you recommend them to do? Like, how would you recommend that they, they access those positions? Eleonore (2): I would urge everyone to get a sponsor. So very quickly, a mentor is someone who speaks to you, Eleonore: and a Eleonore (2): sponsor is someone who speaks about you in rooms of power. So time and time again, we see that women Blacks, Indigenous, people of color We are [00:15:00] overly, and I say we because I know your audience can't see me, but I am a black woman we are overly mentored and not sponsored enough. And you can see why this wouldn't yield the results we want. If someone is just speaking to you, it doesn't actually move the needle. Whereas if they are actively speaking about you and promoting you, yeah, that's when we start seeing changes, right? So get a sponsor. Erin: Yeah. Good advice. So we've talked almost exclusively about character, character of executives. So I guess we could probably conclude that these days character is more important than appearance or does appearance still play a factor? Eleonore (2): Yes, definitely. Appearance still does play some level of a factor, right? As much as we would like to believe that it shouldn't or it does not. It does. And there are some amazing style coaches out there too, [00:16:00] who really help you with that, because it's not just about the clothing you wear, but it's also to how confident you feel in that clothing. So if that makes you put your best foot forward, you speak more eloquently, more strategically you're more of your authentic self, then yeah, get a style coach. If you need help with your presence. And then yes, an executive coach like myself would be more than happy to work with you. And they're speech therapists as well, and I highly recommend them. I had a massive lisp for the majority of my life. So I fully understand how that could both limit your confidence, as well as, Erin: Yeah. We're just about at the top of the hour, and it wouldn't be an episode of weirdos in the workplace. If we didn't close the episode with a little bit of a quote or a story, Eleanor. Eleonore (2): Yeah. And, maybe I'll send it to you as well. One of my good friends, another executive coach Out in Switzerland focusing on [00:17:00] emotional intelligence. If you need that sort of service, definitely contact her and her wonderful business partner Thomas Grom at Cofuturum. So her name is Anna Maria Zumsteg, and I remember one day she had sent me this lovely little picture of a lioness about to sprint. And the caption read, she remembered who she was and then the game changed. So really and truly remember your inner confidence. Remember who you are. Bring that forward and go after your goals. Erin: Amazing. I'm so glad you were able to join me and I cannot wait until you come to join me again. So there I can't wait. Fantastic. That's all for today. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Eleanor and you can find her at Eve's coaching. com E A V E S C O A C H I N G. com. I love that we ended on authenticity. She remembered who she was and then the game changed. Brilliant. [00:18:00] Thanks for joining me on this journey. I look forward to our next adventure next week. Until then stay weird, stay wonderful. And remember don't stay out of trouble.

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