In this podcast, Thomas Bertels explores with thought leaders and executives how to make work more productive, valuable, meaningful, and impactful.
WorkMatters
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67 episodes
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Podcast Overview
In this podcast, Thomas Bertels explores with thought leaders and executives how to make work more productive, valuable, meaningful, and impactful.
Language
🇺🇲
Publishing Since
5/17/2021
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Recent Episodes
June 22, 2026
Andy Spence - The Future of Work
<p>Everyone is talking about the future of work. But much of the conversation is filled with buzzwords, vendor language, and overly simple predictions about what AI will do to jobs, organizations, and HR. </p><p>In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Andy Spence about what is real, what is hype, and what leaders should actually be paying attention to as AI changes the way work gets done. The conversation starts with a lightning round on some of today’s most common future-of-work ideas: agentic recruiting, skills-based organizations, talent marketplaces, and leaderless organizations. Andy argues that some of these ideas are real, but none of them should be accepted uncritically. Agentic recruiting, for example, is not entirely new. It is part of a longer history of using chatbots, algorithms, video tools, and data in hiring. Skills-based organizations are useful in some contexts, but skills are only one factor in determining whether someone will succeed in a role, team, or organization. From there, </p><p>Thomas and Andy explore AI’s impact on work and the labor market. Andy argues that it is too simplistic to look at one task that AI can perform and conclude that an entire job or profession will disappear. Work is more complex than that. Tasks get unbundled and rebundled in new ways across employees, freelancers, platforms, automation, agents, and external partners. That rebundling process may be one of the most important shifts leaders need to understand. </p><p>The episode then turns to work design. Andy and Thomas discuss how the discipline of organization design and work design has faded in many companies — just when it is needed most. Traditional org charts and spreadsheets are not enough to answer today’s questions about how work should be structured, sourced, automated, coordinated, and measured. As organizations introduce AI, agentic systems, internal talent marketplaces, freelancers, and new operating models, leaders need a much broader view of work design. </p><p>The conversation also explores HR transformation. Andy argues that reducing administration does not automatically make HR strategic. Without proactive changes to the people, skills, mindset, and capabilities inside HR, the function often ends up with less admin but not necessarily more strategic impact. </p><p>Ultimately, this episode is about how leaders can move beyond the AI hype and think more seriously about the future of work. Technology will matter. But the organizations that succeed will be the ones that redesign work intentionally, build the right human capabilities, use data wisely, and connect HR strategy directly to business outcomes. </p><p><strong>In This Episode, We Discuss </strong></p><p>• Why agentic recruiting is real, but not entirely new </p><p>• The limits of skills-based organizations and skills taxonomies </p><p>• The promise and mixed results of internal talent marketplaces </p><p>• Why leaderless organizations are unlikely to eliminate the need for human accountability </p><p>• How AI is forcing us to rethink what leadership actually is </p><p>• Why work design may be due for a renaissance </p><p>• How HR technology can reinforce outdated work models </p><p>• Why “AI adoption” is the wrong goal for organizations </p><p>• Why HR transformation requires more than automation and admin reduction </p><p>• What capabilities HR leaders need to build now </p><p>• How successful HR functions enable self-empowered teams </p><p><strong>Key Themes </strong></p><p>AI and work, future of work, agentic recruiting, skills-based organization, talent marketplaces, work design, organization design, HR transformation, CHRO strategy, HR technology. </p><p><strong>Guest Bio </strong></p><p>Andy Spence is a leading voice in workforce and talent strategy, with more than 20 years of experience advising global organizations and the C-suite on how to build people-centric, future-ready organizations. His career spans Big 4 consultancies, start-ups, and his own advisory firm, working with clients including the NHS, John Lewis Partnership, Novartis, Deloitte, and CIPD. Andy publishes the Work 3 Newsletter, read by more than 30,000 professionals each week. Known for turning global megatrends into practical insight, Andy helps HR leaders design talent models fit for a rapidly changing world. </p><p><strong>Connect with Andy </strong></p><p>Work 3 Newsletter: <a href="https://wrk3.substack.com " rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wrk3.substack.com </a></p><p>LinkedIn Profile: <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewspencehrtransformation/ Future of Work " rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewspencehrtransformation/ Future of Work </a></p><p>Speaker Profile: <a href="https://workforcefuturist.substack.com/p/workforce-futurist-speaker-profile" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://workforcefuturist.substack.com/p/workforce-futurist-speaker-profile</a> </p><p></p><p></p><p>00:00 AI Adoption Is Not The Goal </p><p>02:13 Lightning Round </p><p>05:32 What Future Of Work Means </p><p>09:08 AI Myths And Human Value </p><p>13:57 Work Design Renaissance </p><p>16:53 Why HR Tech Is Outdated </p><p>19:19 CHRO Capabilities And Megatrends </p><p>23:37 Resetting The People Function </p><p>27:34 What Makes HR Transformation Work </p><p>30:51 People Analytics Ethics And KPIs</p>
June 8, 2026
Boudewijn Bertsch: CYNEFIN
<p>Many organizations are built around the assumption that problems can be analyzed, controlled, and solved through cause and effect. That assumption works well when the problem is clear or complicated. It is far less useful when the problem involves people, culture, leadership, relationships, change, or uncertainty.</p><p>In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Boudewijn Bertsch about the Cynefin framework, developed by Dave Snowden, and how it helps leaders make sense of different types of problems. Cynefin distinguishes between domains such as clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused. Each domain requires a different way of thinking, deciding, and acting. Boudewijn explains why the dominant management narrative has been shaped by the industrial revolution and the machine metaphor. As a result, many organizations try to force complex human problems into ordered systems of control, accountability, optimization, and best practice. But when the challenge is complex, context matters, outcomes cannot be guaranteed, and leaders need to learn through safe-to-explore experiments.</p><p>The conversation explores what this means for AI adoption, performance management, leadership, organizational change, and the way we treat people at work. Thomas and Boudewijn discuss why people are not simply resources, why fear undermines experimentation, why leaders need to open collective intelligence, and why the work of management increasingly requires facilitation, sense making, and the ability to navigate uncertainty.</p><p>Ultimately, this episode is about learning to diagnose the type of problem before choosing the solution. In a complex world, the answer is often not something a leader already has. It is something the organization discovers together.</p><p>In this episode, we discuss:</p><p>• What Cynefin is and why Dave Snowden describes it as a framework, not a model</p><p>• The five Cynefin domains: clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused</p><p>• Why modern management is shaped by cause-and-effect thinking</p><p>• How organizations accidentally make complex problems worse by forcing them into ordered systems</p><p>• Why leadership, culture, relationships, and human performance are complex</p><p>• How to use safe-to-explore experiments in complex environments</p><p>• Why fear, punishment, and traditional accountability can block experimentation</p><p>• How AI adoption can be approached through multiple experiments and learning loops • The limits of performance reviews and linear rating systems</p><p>• Why organizations need to lead interactions, not just individuals</p><p>• How leaders can use collective intelligence to make sense of complex problems</p><p>• Why leadership style should depend on context</p><p>• What to do when a team is confused or facing chaos</p><p>• How to get started by asking better “we” questions</p><p>Key themes: Cynefin, complexity, sensemaking, leadership, management, organizational culture, human complexity, safe-to-explore experiments, collective intelligence, performance management, AI adoption, accountability, uncertainty, organizational change, complex adaptive systems</p><p>Memorable idea: In complex work, the answer is not something leaders can simply analyze their way toward. It is something people discover through context, collective intelligence, and safe-to-explore experiments.</p><p>Guest Bio:</p><p>Boudewijn Bertsch works with individuals, teams, and executives on how to bring out the best in themselves and others. Trained as a business economist and sociologist, he draws on neuroscience, systems and complexity science, somatics, evolutionary psychology, and biology to help leaders work more effectively in complex environments.</p><p>Over the past 35 years, Boudewijn has worked with leader around the world. He is a certified somatic leadership coach, a former assistant professor at Erasmus University Rotterdam, and a longtime executive education faculty member and advisor to organizations. Boudewijn is co-editor and contributing author of Cynefin: Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World.</p><p>Connect with Boudewijn: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/boudewijn-bertsch-3b79a54a/</p><p>Cynefin Wiki: https://cynefin.io/wiki/Main_Page</p><p>The Cynefin Co: https://thecynefin.co/</p><p>Book: Cynefin - Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World https://thecynefin.co/library/cynefin-weaving-sense-making-into-the-fabric-of-our-world/</p><p></p><p>00:00 Why Complexity Matters</p><p>02:02 Cynefin Explained</p><p>02:40 Five Domains Overview</p><p>06:07 Diagnosing Problems at Work</p><p>09:29 Safe to Explore Experiments</p><p>11:36 AI as a Complexity Case</p><p>15:33 Humans Are Not Machines</p><p>19:56 Rethinking Accountability</p><p>23:43 Tools for Collective Sensemaking</p><p>24:33 Sensemaker and Triads</p><p>30:19 Leading by Context</p><p>34:28 Confused and Chaotic Domains</p><p>39:48 Getting Started with Cynefin</p><p>42:29 Complexity in Healthcare</p><p>46:00 Closing and Takeaways</p>
May 26, 2026
Gabriella Salvatore: Humanizing Talent Acquisition
<p>Talent acquisition is one of the most important processes in any organization. It determines who gets hired, what capabilities the organization builds, and whether the business can actually execute its strategy. And yet, in many companies, the process feels completely broken.</p><p>In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Gabriella D. Salvatore about how AI is changing HR and talent acquisition — and why the current system may be creating more volume, more friction, and more frustration without necessarily producing better hiring outcomes. Gabriela argues that AI has improved productivity in parts of HR, but often at the expense of human judgment, connection, and quality.</p><p>The conversation explores why talent acquisition has become too transactional, why generic job descriptions are part of the problem, and why HR must move beyond order-taking to become a true strategic partner to the business. Gabriella and Thomas discuss the need to rethink job design, rebuild trust in the hiring process, and use technology more wisely — not as a substitute for human judgment, but as a tool that supports better decisions. Ultimately, this episode is about more than recruiting. It is about how organizations can design work, roles, and systems in ways that are more human, more intentional, and more effective.</p><p>In this episode, we discuss:</p><p>- Why talent acquisition is a critical business process — and why it feels so broken today</p><p>- Why recruiters are overwhelmed and candidates are frustrated</p><p>- The limits of applicant tracking systems and AI-driven screening</p><p>- How generic job descriptions create downstream problems in hiring</p><p>- Why HR business partners need to act as strategic talent advisors, not order takers</p><p>- The role of work design and job design in better hiring</p><p>- Why candidate experience is often damaged by automation and poor process design</p><p>- What it might take to rebuild talent acquisition for a more human future</p><p>Guest Bio:</p><p>Gabriela D. Salvatore works with leaders and organizations on the human side of business, helping them tap into the power of their people. Her work focuses on leadership, HR, organizational effectiveness, and creating more human-centered ways of working.</p><p>Connect with Gabriela: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriellasalvatore</p><p></p><p>00:00 The System is Broken</p><p>00:28 The impact of AI on HR productivity</p><p>01:10 The Keyword Trap</p><p>03:42 AI as Research Aid</p><p>05:08 Candidate Experience Fallout</p><p>06:58 Fixing Talent Acquisition</p><p>09:18 Strategic Job Design</p><p>10:16 HR as Trusted Advisor</p><p>14:26 The BANI world</p><p>16:44 Tech Stack Pain Points</p><p>19:58 Alignment Over Automation</p><p>25:46 Onboarding and Growth Gaps</p><p>28:11 Two Tier Hiring Reality</p><p>30:05 Business Driven Talent Pools</p>
67 total episodes available
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