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You Teach The Machines

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by Jeff Pennington and MJ Pennington

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24 episodes

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Hot takes on living with AI from the first generation who has no choice: today's college students.

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Recent Episodes

May 29, 2026

AI Literacy Workshop - Understanding for Non-Tech People of All Ages

You Teach the Machines was an AI literacy workshop before it was a book. I've helped over 850 people from California to Maine connect, understand AI, process their fear, and move forward. People ages 12 to 80+ have been active audience participants. I make it as fun as the topic can be! An example of the short-form talk in <a title= "AI Literacy in Burlington, VT" href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElV60JKS_6U">Burlington, VT June 2025 is here. </a>Video of the full workshop in <a title= "AI Literacy in Brooklyn, NY" href= "https://youtu.be/KiUrXPXWLF4?si=tR55PD1w29PfBq1L">Brooklyn, NY October of 2025 here</a>. I'm winding down this work as of May 2026. If your community has a burning desire to learn how you teach the machines feel free to connect. I don't charge libraries, schools, or community groups. Ideally you could partner with a local bookstore to support sales of the book through their business. Events: <ol> <li>Clayton Library, Clayton, NY, August 22 2026 </li> <li><a title="AI Literacy Workshop" href= "https://www.jesuplibrary.org/events/aionyourterms">Jesup Library, Bar Harbor, ME January 2026</a></li> <li><a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/posts/were-grateful-to-our-panelists-for-leading-ugcPost-7394825916935196672-92D5/"> College of Computing and Informatics, Drexel, Philadelphia, PA November 2025</a></li> <li>Springboard Enterprises, New York, NY October 2025</li> <li><a href= "https://www.tiktok.com/@poursteady/photo/7559710911376788749`">Gowanus Studio Tour, Poursteady, Brooklyn, NY October 2025</a></li> <li><a href="https://lmls.libcal.com/event/14864455">Bala Cynwyd Library, Bala Cynwyd, PA September 2025</a></li> <li><a href="https://beltib.libnet.info/event/14076699">Belvedere Tiburon Library, Tiburon, CA August 2025</a></li> <li><a href= "https://www.facebook.com/TIParkLibrary/posts/1153076280187716/">Thousand Island Park Library, Clayton, NY August 2025</a></li> <li>Thousand Island Park Chatauqua, Clayton, NY, August 2025</li> <li>Causeway Club, Southwest Harbor, ME July 2025</li> <li><a href= "https://www.grindstoneislandwinery.com/calendar-events/jeff-pennington-book-signing-discussion-you-teach-the-machines-ai-on-your-terms"> Grindstone Island Winery, Clayton, NY July 2025</a></li> <li><a href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zf11_3ZzsY">PechaKucha 40, Burlington, VT June 2025 (Book published June 27)</a></li> <li><a href= "https://davisinstituteai.colby.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/2024-2025-YIR-4.2.pdf"> Colby College, Waterville, ME March 2025</a></li> <li><a href= "https://ccos-cc.ctsa.io/groups/program-meetings/2024/2024-fall-meeting?view=meeting-details"> NIH CTSA Consortium, Bethesda, MD November 2024</a></li> <li>American College of Graduate Medical Education, Chicago, IL September 2024</li> <li>Cincinnati Children's Hospital and Medical Center, Cincinnati, OH August 2024</li> <li>Thousand Island Park Chatauqua, Clayton, NY, July 2024</li> </ol> Here's a transcript of the final part of the full workshop where we admit that AI can be put to productive use, despite all the flaws in the current landscape. "If you choose to use it productively. Yeah, so that's a really good, that's a really good point. There's there's a a point of view with technology. Am I using it deliberately, or am I just like depending on it mindlessly? There are a lot of amazing things that have come out of those same companies, including social media, right? Like some of you may be here because of social media. That's a good thing, right? You may have heard about it. Um, but at the same time AI has been used, especially in the last five years, six years, to uh make our interaction with digital systems more and more compelling and harder and harder to step back from and avoid. So my biggest, my biggest argument with the AI industry as it, as it is now, the sort of consumer like, hey, we're just using Chat GPT or Gemini or Claude or one of these things, or also hey, I were consuming social media, is um it's really really built around uh giving us those hits that will keep us coming back. So I I can go off on tech dependence all day long. I'm gonna stop there, but it's something to be aware of when you're interacting with AI systems, that those systems, they're being, they're they're trying to charm you. They're type casting and all these things because they really want to get you using them and keep using them. They want you to like pay for the premium subscription, right? That doesn't mean they're all bad and that you can't be productive in line, right? Um, we've talked about a lot about all the bad stuff. We're gonna really really try hard together to focus on the good stuff. Um, and this, this mate, Mary Jane just shook her head. Ha ha. Um, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna blow through what I have to say and then and then we can talk some more together, uh, and then we'll switch over to uh what I'm personally more interested in than being here to talk about AI again. Um, 'cause actually I didn't really want to write a book about AI, but haha. Um, and we'll do, we'll do some coffee stuff. So uh, a couple of my anecdotes, and then I'm gonna ask y'all for some um, why, why am I not like ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater and cut the cable and walk away from all this stuff? My uh mother in law, Mary Jane's grandmother, was staying with us this summer. She woke up, almost fell down from severe pain in the back of her knee. She's 82. She doesn't slow down, but this stopped her. She was up early when this happened, and um sat at the kitchen table and was googling over and over, what's going on, what's going on, what's going on, and was getting more and more scared. It was, she was not getting helpful information. It was scattered. Uh, I I got up, came downstairs, and and um could tell something was wrong and asked her, hey, what's up? And she said, I have this pain in the back of my knee and I can't find anything on Google, it doesn't make any sense. So we sat down in front of a chatbot and started a dialogue that um, we built up enough context, 'cause that's really important when you use these things, to interact and build up context. We got to the point where uh it told her, oh, you need to go to the hospital right now, because that's either deep vein thrombosis or a baker's cyst. And we got there because like, she basically said, well, I just tried this vitamin and I just stopped taking that medication and then I did this and then I did that. And she put all of this information out there that through the normal like ranking algorithm was just scattershot, but because of the context that she built up, and because of the pre training that the model behind this chat interface had, um, knew what to pay attention to. It said deep vein thrombosis or baker's cyst, go get an ultrasound, here's the two sentences you need to say to the doctor in order to have a really quick and productive exchange. She went to the local critical access hospital and had an ultrasound, and the deep vein thrombosis was ruled out. It was a baker's cyst. At 82, she had a better health outcome because of this technology. You know, she may or may not have shown up at that hospital uh and been triaged appropriately. She could walk in more informed, right. It could have been wrong, could have, there could have been misinformation, right, but um it was better than what she was getting from technology without it. That's one of my positives, and I'm gonna ask everybody else for positives. The second is uh a a study that I I worked on at CHOP, um, is similar to a study that's being done in pediatrics around the country. So, a uh there's a certain type of rib fracture in children that is, when appropriately evaluated, is like a dead on marker of physical abuse. The way the rib breaks, how it breaks, how it shows up in the X rays. Um, there are very few pediatric radiologists who can look at a chest X ray from the ER and say yes, that is from physical abuse, this kid needs to be uh assessed and protected. Um, there's a high rate of of that being missed by pediatric radiologists who haven't had that training. So there are researchers around the country who are working to teach machines to to appropriately and correctly identify that type of rib fracture, so that all the pediatric radiologists who don't have that expertise, and all the radiologists, and all of the community hospitals where there isn't a pediatric radiologist, can appropriately catch physical abuse in children and those kids can be protected. Um, these are the kinds of things why I can't just be like, f this stuff, f these guys, I'm out. And why I think it's important for all of us to be more informed and be critical consumers, that we can get to the good stuff and to collectively like marginalize the bad stuff. You just got a positive. Cooking, cooking. Yeah, take a picture of the ingredients you have and it'll help you, give you ideas for what to do with them. And you only lit it on fire once. Like sourdough baking, sourdough baking. A large, 60 pizzas for example, like helping create a recipe. So I think we're a recipe. So yeah. Derek, I was gonna say, kind of expanding on both of those points, the democratization of knowledge, where before a lot of this was extremely specialized. Before literacy was super high, everything was gatekept by guilds where people had specific knowledge of a certain thing. Literacy increased, people were able to learn more and do things at home and bring it to themselves. This is the next level of technology where I can go on, who has no formal experience with coding, and being able to buy code, new systems or something, like help me run something in my household I had no access to before this. Not good. Yep. That reminds me, I fixed my ACBC. Yeah, I have found Chat GPT, two examples recently, to be really good collaborators in complicated mechanical engineering tasks. That I mean, in one way it kind of is eliminating a job, you know, like this is CEO position and I get to like, you know, have expertise here when I can afford it. But the truth is a lot of time you can't afford it. We've had mechanical engineers and we've lost them in the past. I have more of like an MFA of design and been making stuff with my hands my whole life. But we need to improve the laminar flow of the water coming out of the course taking machine. And I had a month long conversation with Chat GPT where it was doing all the math, and we kind of figured out how long the little syringe tubing needed to be inside the nozzle to do it at that temperature, which, you know, conceptually I've seen a YouTube video of making Lambert flow, but this was literally doing the math. And we were narrowing in on like what you can buy online, where you can buy it, how long it has to be, what the diameters have to be. And like, that's like a fluid dynamics graduate student, 200 thousand dollar job hybrid specialty. And you know, we're a struggling small company trying to make complicated stuff, and like I can accept it now. Yeah, you're so desperate that you're hosting AI. Yeah, no. I mean, but like, you know, I would love to have like genius engineers around all the time, but I, yeah, that's not my cool, hasn't manifested itself yet. Another good one which um is actually re bringing back uh human interaction and especially through customer experience. A good example here, of course, that I do a lot of the CX support and about customer experience. Customer experience, half of my um day was sending out the same templated email, this is how you um connect back to Wi-Fi. And that caused me to also take a lot of other uh interactions to be less thoughtful. There's so much time was taken up for one thing. So with um our integration with um Fin AI, who intercom, that part's automated now. When it comes to actually speaking to the customers, I'm have more free time to be able to interact with them, get to know them on a real basis. Same thing if you're doing um marketing or social media on management, you can now automate the basic mundane crap that doesn't actually matter, like post this to three different spots, time this out, you don't have to wake up to do that. And it gives people more opportunity to write their own copy and do what actually matters. Yeah, just because Chat GPT or this can write the copy for you doesn't mean it has to. And you can automate the part, my friends, with the BS, and then you can do what matters and not live in between. Yeah, yeah, who's a parent here? Okay, who's a parent of a a like high school or college age kid? Okay. Um, who, who's ever seen their kids struggle because one of their teachers isn't great? Yeah, who in the room has ever had a teacher who wasn't getting through to them? Haha. These are class of 2025 college grads. OK, who, who are some of the most, they are the most interesting people to talk to about AI because they did 2 years of college without, two years with. MJ and I started this podcast called You Teach the Machines to Talk To. Actually these were our first guests. Um, true, true. Yeah, about that experience, and you should check it out 'cause it's fascinating. Um, who'd be willing to share how your experience using uh AI helped you learn more, get a better grade, when your teacher wasn't getting through to you? MJ, plant. Yeah, I'm a huge AI skeptic and I am gen generally negative about it, but I have had positive experiences. I took a probability class last year um for my statistics major that absolutely wrecked me. Like, it was in the math department, I wasn't a math major. The professor was like super classic, like long gray beard and glasses, like incredibly brilliant mathematician who did a lot of super theoretical math. Um, and so the way he taught the class was through a lot of math theory, and I was more interested in probability from the statistics side and from like the modeling side. So through a lot of these units I would sit in a lecture and he would teach about probability through a sort of math theory lens and it would go right over my head. And like, the way that I Learned better is through like concrete examples of applying math. And I'm also super visual, so I need kind of it like spelled out for me in like a physical way. Um, and so I would sit through one of these lectures and then use AI after the class to basically give them the topic that I had Learned and ask for an explanation in a couple different ways. And there's like a benefit to the ability to interact with it that's different from just googling. You can just Google like whatever the probability concept is, the Poisson Curve, and and get a page, a static page that gives you information. Of being able to interact with AI, I could kind of, it kind of Learned how I Learned better, and could could word it in a way that my brain process better, come up with examples and problems for me to try that like got through to me a little bit better than the theory. So yeah, there you go. Yeah, so what's a common theme from all positives today? Was anybody just like, you know, what's the animated movie um where the people are in couches, just like WALL-E? WALL-E, uh, yeah, WALL-E. Were any of those examples like, somebody is like, right, they were all examples of augmentation. That's how this works for us. And that's where there may be an element of dependence, in the same way that I now depend on navigation apps to to get places. Um, but that's on my terms, okay. Augmentation is is what you are instinctively drawn to in these uses. What's just took like one call back to fears. Kids that are younger than than the crew here. Um, with Connie, chef, chef, alright I got it right, they're both blonde like roughly the same shape, he's bigger, he's bigger. So chef. Um, Chef, I'm sorry to tell you, but your prefrontal cortex is not developed, right. It will be someday, it's gonna be great. Alright, but your, your the kids in your lives aren't necessarily developed to the point where they can disambiguate between, oh, this thing's augmenting me, and I'm just gonna be like, I'll just take it, right. Um, that's why it's important for you to be an influence on the kids in your lives, and to be understanding of teachers who have been dropped into this right after they got out of the pandemic and are just like, really, okay. Um, but that augmentation is the sweet spot, as so far as it exists now. Um, the the sort of so what, my recommendations um based on my own research, my own behaviors, experiences, but then what I've Learned from talking to, you know, over 800 people um in person, are: don't give away your data. In your business, in your personal life, consider your data to be an asset. Now, in this forum it's hard to, like for me to tell you exactly what that means, but uh Derek, how useful were 10 years of customer service emails in fine tuning the, I mean, it was everything, that's our dataset. Yeah. Um, your data can be your business's data, your personal data. My writing is my data. I I am getting ready to uh fine tune an AI using my book. Alright, and then from that, do some experiments on, like, could I train an AI to be my book? Right. I'm not gonna just give that book to any of the big commercial providers, dump it in there, even though Paul thinks I should. Something to do for you, they probably already have, they probably already have it. Just get it in, yeah, just get it in. I'll just upload it. But consider the data you generate to be an asset. And if you are in a situation where you need to acquire or start using a new digital system, every digital system that you, that you buy or buy into these days is, has been funded as a startup, in part, digital information system, in order, based on the value of the unique dataset that they collect. Like the venture capital market switched in 2015 to, it's not just the team and the product and the market, it's those things and it's the unique dataset. So the investors for 10 years now have been buying into, putting money into, businesses that generate a unique data set. Um, when you subscribe to a business uh service software, it's all hosted now. That's because they want your data. It's a unique data set. The terms and conditions that um that company acquires and then uses your data are always favor the company, and you just like, yeah I'll click fine, let's go, low stakes. So what, who cares? Higher stakes, like, thank god you had all those emails. Does Intercom also basically allow you to download sort of every product of every interact, every customer interaction, so that you have it instead of just Intercom? Yes, great. Yep, that was the right decision. We also set up a additional background forwarding so that we can have it saved on a Gmail as well as Hubspot for our CRM. Right, so we have it moved over to several locations. Yeah, they're all using it to train, of course. So you're contributing to the commons, which is another way to look at how your data gets used, right. It, you can hoard and protect and be conspiracy minded, or you could just like figure out what's important to you, what the stakes are, when it comes to your data. Um, tasks. Everything, every positive we discussed was about like, I gotta, I gotta get x done. Be deliberate in how you interact with AI. Teach the people around you, model that behavior, teach kids. What do you wanna do? It's not like just sort of sitting back and using AI. It's like, I gotta, I gotta do this task. And then use it to save yourself time. This is something that I, that I've Learned in lots of discussions with people, that I've Learned on my own. Um, great anecdote. I had a consulting project, I did probably a day and a half worth of work in a, in a half a day, and could spend the rest of that time differently. I was blown away with not just how I could do, do research on the topic I was consulting on, but then how I could synthesize it, compile it, and and use AI to help me tell the story that was in the information and put it out there. Get time back, right, by using these tools. And then as best you can, like, have your output be based on value, not on hours spent, so that you don't end up like adding to the gig economy sectors, right, which is something Mary Jane can speak very cogently about. Um, but use it to get time back. That's on your terms. Um, and the most important thing, something that I that I've, I've Learned um, is, and it's become even more important to me: you don't just use Chat GPT. Don't ever get reflective about which AI you, you use, because they're all different, they all have pros, cons, flaws. Ask the same question or do the same project on multiple. That does one thing, it allows you to see where they're inconsistent with each other, and that inconsistency is a signal, oh, why is that inconsistent? Back to critical thinking and digging into like why, why, why is this, why are these answers different? Um, it gives you an opportunity to think critically and compare contrast, do your own research and thinking. So just in that, that pattern of behavior, it's sort of just better for a human brain and using those strengths more. Um, also it's, for me it's become, you know, now when I don't agree with one of these companies and how they're going about this stuff, I'm out. You know, I'm not gonna tell you which one I don't agree with, you gotta come up, come up with your own answer to that. Um, but recently I've been like, nope, I'm done, I can't. So coming back to the environmental cost of AI. It it turns, yeah, AI turns electricity into heat. That's how it works. That's the physical industrial process. Electricity goes into a computer, bits and bytes come out, heat gets emitted. So it consumes electricity, it consumes a ton of electricity, it consumes a ton of water for cooling, both at electricity generation but then also in the data center. Um, you know, everything in our modern life consumes resources. We're all, we're all often trying to be good stewards of these resources. When you use multiple AIs, you set yourself up to start to be a critical thinker about, hey, like which one's even like deciding to, you know, not put a new data center next to a new power plant on top of Marcellus Shale gas. Because a year, a year and a half ago, it was all about the new nuke plants that were being commissioned and or recommissioned. And now, very quietly, the the AI industry is like, now they're parking data centers on top of of of a shale gas. So it's happening, right. Shh, right. So if you use multiple, you can make those, you can use your critical thinking to make those kinds of decisions. Um, most importantly, stop my foot, get out and talk to people. Get, get off your phone. It's hard, I don't judge anybody who sits and scrolls, I do it, but connect in the real world. We've all been burned by the incorporation of AI that basically makes technology more addictive. We've been burned by a pandemic that locked us up and put us in front of computers for what had been in personal interaction, zoom, blah blah blah, right. Disconnection is the biggest risk to us, all of us here. That's my view. My biggest fear is disconnection, which is why I don't do these talks online, which is why I go, I've been to seven states now and I do it in person, because this is what makes us human. What makes all of these things turn into minor problems and not overwhelming problems. Alright, and also, if you'd like to keep up with, with this, with the change of this stuff, as much as you, as as we can, MJ and I um have this podcast. Uh, I've, I can say objectively that the book is really good. Um, a 15 year old has gotten something out of it, an 85 year old has gotten something out of it. It doesn't dumb things down, it does make really complex stuff accessible. You can tell what my style is, um, and that, that comes through in the book. If you wanna get the book, um, let me give you a sticker."

March 26, 2026

Exhausted by AI Hype?

I want to help you understand and move on with your life, with or without AI. A quick reading from my book You Teach the Machines.

March 18, 2026

Kay Koplovitz

MJ interviews Kay Koplovitz, Forbes Top 250 Innovator, CEO of the first satellite cable network, venture investor, and founder of nonprofit Springboard Enterprises. Springboard accelerates women-led startups, over 950 to date creating $76 billion in value! <div id="model-response-message-contentr_b413b17c42060581" class= "markdown markdown-main-panel tutor-markdown-rendering enable-updated-hr-color" dir="ltr" aria-live="polite" aria-busy="false"> Kay: Overcoming challenges together has a lasting positive effect on our value. How we value ourselves. And I'm not talking about dollars. (0:21) [Intro music plays: "Where, oh where are you tonight? Why did you leave me unread on my phone? I searched the world over and thought I found true love. You met an AI and poof, you was gone."] MJ: To our listeners who can't see, we were all bobbing our heads and dancing to the music. It's a great way to get in the mood a little bit. But I'll go ahead and introduce our guest today. Kay Koplovitz, who is a businesswoman, entrepreneur, and author who has spent her career looking to the future. She was the first woman to head a television network when she founded USA Network in 1977. And she was a visionary, helping sports television reach cable by negotiating contracts for the MLB, NBA, NHL, among others. She launched the Sci-Fi Channel, chaired the bipartisan National Women's Business Council, and used her platform to launch Springboard Enterprises, which is a global network of entrepreneurs, investors, and advisors accelerating the success of women entrepreneurs in technology and life sciences. She's a champion for female entrepreneurs and an inspiration to young women everywhere, and an inspiration to me. Kay Koplovitz, thank you so much for joining us today. Kay: Oh, what a great pleasure to be joining you for your podcast today. I'm really looking forward to our discussion. MJ: Yeah! Well, so you've spent your career sort of looking to the future, innovating. I know that you started the Sci-Fi Channel partly because you thought that it was what we were all headed towards, right? And now we're kind of at the forefront of that sci-fi reality. Kay: Hal is beckoning at our door right now. People here listening know who Hal is from 2001: A Space Odyssey. Kay: He's still around. MJ: Yeah, I think that a lot of our listeners are friends of mine and people my age. And I know that when you were in school, you did your Master's thesis on satellite programming and how it could sort of impact the social order by spreading information. And AI is kind of another way that we are spreading information. I wondered if we could just start there with your experience working in media for so long. How you think that the spread of information is changing now, and for people my age, what feels different now than it did when you were an expert in your field with cable? What feels the same? Is this a familiar beast, or is this a whole new ball game? Kay: Well, technology always changes everything. I've been present for the change at various times. Way back, I wrote a Master's thesis in 1968 on satellite technology and how it could change communications around the globe. It was something that we didn't have access to. And for people that are listening, historically, we were in a Cold War with Russia and China. We didn't know what was behind the Berlin Wall or the Great Wall of China. Today, both of them—one's gone completely, the other one, the Great Wall of China, is a tourist attraction today—but we didn't know what was there. And I thought geosynchronous orbiting satellites, high-altitude satellites, only needed three to communicate all around the earth. It was a real breakthrough in technology and potentially a big breakthrough in people's ability to communicate with one another. So you have to start there with the satellites and what they did to change communication around the globe. So things advanced, computers came along for personal use, the internet sprung up, people started communicating through the internet. And eventually, we launched cable networks, USA Network in my case, Sci-Fi. And Sci-Fi, I was not a kid who read sci-fi comic books and things like that. But I grew up in the age of Sputnik, President Kennedy challenging us to put a man on the moon. You have to have vision. Students today, if you want to innovate and be an entrepreneur, for example, you need to have a core position that you really, truly believe in and want to really reach for if there is no solution yet. And one way to learn about that is to actually jump in and work for a company that's a young startup company. You can learn a lot of things working for big corporations, but you won't learn those skills because they're not the same skills. And I always say to students, if you really want to learn, "Well, am I really an entrepreneur? Can I really do this?", the best way to do it is to start at a very young company and see how it operates and see what the challenges are and learn from those experiences. When you're young, it's the time to do it. It's the time to try different things. You are free to try. And today it's free to access. When I started out, the television market was pretty closed. Cable television, people were like, "What's that? Why do we need more than three networks?" They challenged everything that we wanted to do. And I said, "Well, there's a lot more out here." And to me, it was opening up the global communication sphere. And that was using high-altitude satellites to communicate around the world, to communicate with people directly on phone services and things like this around the world. So it's gone back to also low-orbiting satellites. You can launch thousands of them; there are millions of them out there. And so we all know, for example, in the war-torn country of Ukraine, their communication is basically by Starlink and their field operations. But furthermore, for people with just communicating with each other, the streaming that has overlapped what the cable networks did, now the cable networks are being disrupted by the streaming networks. And so communication has become literally among billions of people around the world. When we started off, it took a few years to get to like a million people, and then get to ten million people, and then get to twenty and thirty, fifty... it took time. Today, you can instantly have the opportunity to communicate with billions of people around the world. Now, what does that mean? It's hard to communicate with a billion people at a time, you know? MJ: Right. Kay: But also as a young person, your point about getting into entrepreneurship now, this being one of the best times to start, we have access to everybody across the globe and all of their information. It's easier than ever to just get your feet wet, right? Kay: It's easier than ever, you're absolutely right, but the challenge is to gather your own community. Because there's so much competition out there. There's so much opportunity out there. And people say to me, "Oh, you know, the consolidation of the broadcast networks," which is happening. The consolidation of the cable networks, which has been happening for the last couple decades and now really more so. Those are consolidating and coming together. The big challenge is not "can you get in?" You can get in. Anyone can get in with a cell phone or a desktop or a laptop or anything, an iPad, whatever you have. But who are you going to reach? Are you going to reach your own community? And that's really where a lot of influencer marketing has come into play with a lot of celebrity stars from Hollywood, television stars, and people say there's not enough creativity. There are so many companies that have launched on TikTok, that have launched on, certainly, YouTube. There are many, many different opportunities. What is your goal? What is your business plan? How are you going to support this? This is, and advertising revenue, of course, has supported Meta, Facebook, and how are you going to create a business? First of all, establish yourself. What is your position? Is it clear? Can you attract your community? And then how do you want to monetize that community? Is it a freemium model? Is it free at first and then we'll charge you? I think we're all familiar with that. Or is it just advertising-supported like FAST channels that are available through like Roku and all the manufacturers of sets of all kinds and computers of all kinds have advertising revenue? It's very hard in the vast community of billions of people to find your niche. But if you do have a strong following on your niche, you can create businesses that way. It's not a matter of access, it's a matter of performance in the end. MJ: Right. Jeff: Performance. A couple of things that stuck out to me from what you said, Kay. One: the phrase "gather your community." Kay: Let me give you an example. I'm a whitewater rafter. And the people who are in whitewater rafting who are the guides that I've been on Class V trips with, they show up in different parts of the world. It's just this community of these nutcases who love to go whitewater rafting. We just loved it. I mean, it was just so exciting. And then we'd go to South America, we'd go to Chile, and the next time we'd go over, we'd be in South Africa and the same guy—"Oh, hey! It's so good to see you again!" MJ: A community that you found of rafters! Kay: That's sort of fun. And then you can say to them, "Hey, have you done this river and what should I expect of it?" Give you an example of something that's a small community that people are integrated together in and respond to each other quite quickly. Jeff: You know, if you have access through all these different channels—streaming services like Twitch—if you have access, that is an incredible opportunity in that there's no barrier anymore. But without a community, you don't have a voice, right? And a quote stuck with me from a student of mine: "Get over yourself and start the conversation you want to have." Because another point you made in a couple different ways was you have to have a strong point of view and direction. And having the conversation that you want to have is crucial when there's every opportunity to make more generic noise, content, whatever. But you're not going to gather a community without that point of view. Kay: Yes, that is true. One of the things I would say—and I'm concerned about students today and trying to make choices among chaos—I have always believed that there is enormous opportunity in chaos. When everything is static, it's very hard to get in. There's so much chaos right now that the other opposite side is true: there's just so much chaos, where do I plant my flag? How do I...? People know when you're authentic and when you're not. The thing that I worry about is I think social media is dividing us. I think social media started off to connect people, connect families, "share my videos" and this and that... all these sorts of lofty ideas which were wonderful. But today, a lot of the business models are based on hostility. More: the more people are angry and shouting from different sides at each other drives up the use, the attendance, the participation. And I worry about how that aspect of it—that business plan, and let's be honest, the business plans of Meta and Google and companies like YouTube and companies like that—to some degree or lesser, they depend on that high friction. And nothing has to be true. It's what you say is true. It may have nothing to do with truth. People can project a lot of lies and just make up things and try to get people to believe them. And I think that's really destroying our soul being in a lot of ways, and having people against each other, and then even family members against each other. I don't think that's a good thing. And I'd like to go back to the idea that individual communities should be the challengers or the people who have the mission of that community and have their judgment as to what is the proper communication that they should be having. And if they don't, they'll kick them out. And we had companies like that years ago, but today it's... I think students know what is authentic, but they drift into things, too. It's easy to be pulled into things by a friend or somebody that you know or somebody that you met and go down a path that is not... Jeff: Or by an algorithm that's tuned to deliver dopamine to you. MJ: Yeah. We're not just an AI podcast; we talk a lot about the influence of technology and social media. And because you have been in media since before social media, you sort of talked about how we went from like one or two cable news networks and now we have this influx of information across the board through social media and how it kind of divides us because fear sells, right? You get more engagement if it's more extreme, and maybe the companies that are giving us access to social media are less concerned about the integrity of the information and more about engagement. I wonder, are there any pros when it comes to media specifically, going from like one or two cable news networks to everything at your fingertips? I wonder if you've seen differences or if you think that there's any benefit to that. Kay: I always think it's beneficial to hear different points of view. I don't think it's productive to have just groupthink. Whether you agree with "that's your groupthink" or somebody else's groupthink, I always listen to people that have different points of view than I have because I always learn something from them. I don't have to necessarily agree with them, but I learn something from them about why they think the way they do. So sometimes they change my mind because I say, "Now, that's an interesting thought. They have a point there; maybe I should think a little bit more about that." So, I think it's a benefit to have access. What I'm thinking about when I think about Artificial Intelligence and AGI: I think it would be great to be able to use technology to qualify for ourselves—as individuals—qualify what we're reading and understanding through these different social media platforms, people, individuals. And it's kind of interesting because when you do research—and I use it for research just to look at things that bring things to my attention that I may not know exist because there are so many sources of information out there—I think it would just be great for us as individuals, or people in our group, to be able to get instantaneous analysis of what are facts or not facts that are listed here with what people are saying. I think that's the next best step that we can make because I don't think we can really depend on regulation, like national, state regulation of any kind, self-regulation. Look, we had self-regulation in the cable industry for a long time. You know, and some of it was good and some of it wasn't. And I think this is true today too, but I think we have the ability to at least instantly today check the viability or the truth of what are these stats, what is this information that we're... Here we are, we're talking to each other. Now, if we want to go and find out, well, is Kay Koplovitz telling us the truth or not? You could find out like that, you know? "No, she's just telling a story." So I think there are ways that we're starting to understand, if we're interested people and not just there to, let's say, spread our—whatever we want—the message that we want, true or not true or whatever it is. This would be a great way to use the different platforms of technology that are coming into the core right now for us to be able to double-check ourselves. We don't have to have an outside source. We do have outside sources now checking on the veracity of a lot of statements that are being made, let's say by politicians. Sure, there's a lot of that going on out there, but wouldn't it be great if just we as individuals could get the same just fact-check like that and say to ourselves, "Oh, I really thought I was believing this person, but actually what they've just said is not true. Here are the facts." Wouldn't that be sort of cool? That then each of us could have that responsibility. Some people are trying to deceive you. There's all kinds of people like that out there. MJ: It's almost like both the problem and the solution is the fact that we have access to all of the information, right? It just takes a little bit more... Kay: It's overload! Our brains can't consume it all at one time. MJ: But it takes some more personal responsibility, right? To care about whether or not the facts you're consuming are true. Kay: Now, on the other hand, someone can use it for evil. They can use the same technology to, let's say, bring in people who they're spinning a yarn to and get them to believe it. MJ: It's a double-edged sword. Kay: Because they've said it so many times and people start becoming believers, and we do see that a lot today, let's say our political environment, we do see that. Jeff: I wonder if you think that—I'm sure you've had it, the experience of catching a bot, whether it be Google's or Claude—catching a bot in an inaccuracy is actually a good thing because it teaches you to be skeptical, to ask follow-up questions, those sorts of things. Kay: I don't know if I've really had the... I don't think about it as catching a bot. They make mistakes too. We make mistakes. Like I use it for research. It could be a contract. I could say, "I want analysis of the contract if I've forgotten something or need something out of my head." And boom, you get an answer. Well, okay, well that's... I better check that out. At least I find it very, very good. Jeff: So I think we all can feel that there's a lot of chaos swirling around us right now. And Kay, you brought up that chaos can be an opportunity. MJ, your perspective is that there's a lot of chaos right now, but in that, there is opportunity. Just coming back to that point you made, Kay, about for young people, a great way to learn a lot quickly is to work in a small company, a startup, a growth company, maybe not. How does that relate to this concept of there being opportunity in chaos? MJ: I think that my entire generation feels like anything we do post-grad is kind of taking advantage of a chaotic moment, and that can feel pretty crippling. I think that there's a lot of uncertainty about what the workforce looks like moving forward, how different technologies impact the way that we experience the world, the way that we contribute to the world. But I also think that if you can get over the lead in your stomach from that crazy uncertainty about what even the makeup of the workforce looks like, there is a lot of opportunity to be the people that are coming up with ideas of what it could look like—envisioning that future. And that means that even if you're in an entry-level role right now, you have to be inventing what an entry-level employee does now because AI can sort of automate the basics of that role. So we have to be a lot more proactive about proving our value early. As scary as it is and as much as it feels like it's setting us back, I really think that it's something that's going to push my generation forward because we have to much younger decide what our point of view is, decide what we want to say, decide how we can demonstrate our value to people that might employ us. Because generating sort of mediocre content is something that AI can do now, right? They can summarize an email and make a PowerPoint. And so something that I've grappled with as I'm looking at the beginning of my career is: what do I care about? What can I do that is interesting? What are the questions that I can ask? And also I think it's sort of a lot of my life experience, including the pandemic and then AI, has sort of forced me to reckon with the fact that humans and human connection is something that is so important to me and something that is how the world is going to move forward, right? Post-pandemic, I was so grateful to be able to be in person with the people I love. And I think that that gratitude is getting even bigger as I realize that interpersonal connection and human-first companies are the future because AI kind of automates all of the tech babble. And it comes down to who are you? How do you connect with the people around you in a meaningful way that only humans can do? And what do you have to offer, and what are the questions you want to ask, and how are you going to solve those questions? Those are my thoughts. Kay: Yeah, well, I think you're hitting on something that's extremely important, and that is relationships—human, face-to-face relationships. And if someone your age is to say to themselves, "Well, I want to go into the art world and I want to deal with art," then maybe they want to go work for an art company. Maybe they want to work for Sotheby's or maybe they want to work for an art studio. Even technology is changing how people access that, but being able to be there in the environment with the people that you admire and want to learn from is extremely important. That's why I think, in many ways, return to the office is beneficial. I think it's been harder for people starting out only on screens looking at each other. You've got a connection to the people, but it's not the same as having that really personal relationship and understanding the other person. And so you go into a company—let's say you're not really thinking about being an entrepreneur, you want to go into a company—even if that's a bank, you want to go into banking or something like that. I mean, it's hard to establish those key people that you want to follow when you never get to see them personally. You don't get to sit around a room and have a cup of coffee with them. You're just a face on a screen. And I think that there's a good thing about being able to communicate with people around the world in all kinds of different media that we have available to us today, but I think you're focusing on something that's really, really important to the future of humanity. And that is personal, personal relationships with people. There's nothing that can substitute sitting around the table or working in an environment where you can go down the hall or around the various cubicles that people are in and talk to someone. MJ: Yeah. Kay: To bring it back to a startup, I think that there's something valuable about the foundation of a small company that is mission-driven and you're working in the chaos and it becomes so much about how each individual person in that company contributes to the mission, what they can bring to the table in terms of problem-solving. Specifically in life sciences and tech startups where maybe you're trying to solve a healthcare issue. It's about the people that you're trying to help. There's a human-centric mission. And when you're in a small company, every person's voice matters, everybody is all hands on deck, and you have to bring value to the table in terms of your ability to jump in and work with each other. Your experience working with small companies, with startups—how do you feel it kind of ties into the human connection piece? But the chaos, and it actually is an opportunity maybe for individuals to really shine and showcase their talents and figure out what they care about. What are your thoughts on that? Kay: Yeah, well Springboard Enterprises, which is the non-profit accelerator that was launched 26 years ago now, the mission was to find women in science and technology who are starting companies and connect them with potential investors and advisors that they needed. It's a perfect example of mission-driven entrepreneurship because it didn't exist. People said, "Oh, you know, women don't do that kind of thing." And I said, "Oh yeah? I think they do." And they said, "We never hear from the venture capitalists; no one ever comes to pitch us, no women ever." They didn't know each other. So we had to go out and find the original companies that we brought in. And we were stunned when there was no internet for us; we didn't have an internet connection, we didn't have a website or anything like that. Six of us went out and just sent out to groups that business organizations, colleges we went to, we just tried. And to our surprise, 300—over 300 applications showed up on paper. Whoa, what are we going to do with this? And we were very fortunate to have Stanford and Berkeley MBA students help us sift through them all and we came up with 26 companies. We said, "These companies can grow big, we think." We're going to have to see what we can do with them and help them establish. So that's how we established our first initiative in bringing women to the marketplace. And when we actually had a Demo Day in January of 2000, some 300-some people came to listen to them. And they were like, "Where did you find these companies?" You know, we found them by going out to look for them. We didn't just sit in a room and wait for them to show up. And I think this is like a mission-driven thing now because these women over time have raised over $14 billion, have created over $76 billion in value for their investors, 28 IPOs, 240 M&A events... I mean, they are really kicking ass out there. And I really, I'm very proud of the work. And talk about something that's mission-driven, this is a community of people who are there to see them succeed. Not punish them, not interrogate them, but to give them tough love. I mean, tell them the real truth about what they're doing and how they have to change and what they can do to help them through the gates. And this is a community, what you're talking about in many ways. Mission-driven community make a difference. MJ: A community that you found, yeah! Jeff: I'll reflect: MJ and I were fortunate enough to attend the 25th anniversary gala for Springboard Enterprises last October. We got to see Kay there in her element, in her community. And I will say that afterward MJ said something to me that was really important. She said, "Dad, I've never been in a room with 250 women and I didn't hear anybody say 'I'm sorry.'" Because every woman in that room, every person in that room, had a strong point of view, was probably looking for chaos to take advantage of. MJ: Yeah, I think that what I meant by that—that's "sorry" is kind of a running thing in our family where my dad noticed that my sister and I apologize constantly for things that we have nothing to be sorry for. And I think that it's sort of an ingrained female thing to be a little sheepish. And so when we were younger, he would always say, "Take your sorry back. What do you have to apologize for?" And I think that I used that as an example because I was in a room full of women who held eye contact, had something to say. There was none of the sort of socially ingrained spatial apology where women feel the need to make themselves small, right? These are all women who have voices, are confident, who know what they want to say, and when you have conversations with them, they are unapologetic in taking up that space. And it was honestly one of the most incredible professional experiences I've had. It's the beginning of my career, so it's a short list, but I've never been in a room full of women who were all so inspirational. And it was a really profound experience for me. So thank you for that. Kay: Well, I'm glad it was a good experience for you and there are legions of us. And I was at the Femmys Awards this week here in New York, all women in Fintech. Men and women in Fintech supporting women in Fintech. And Fintech is chaotic. There are massive changes in the financial market going on, whether you think it's crypto or you think it's blockchain or you think it's stablecoin... I mean, all this stuff that's going on in finance. This is the time for people to really come out in front, you know? Because it's very chaotic and it's also very exciting. And you know what? Entrepreneurship is exciting and frightening at the same time, which is probably why it attracted me, because it's... it's frightening. But it's also exciting. And some days you get up and the problems are so heavy, you're just saying, "How am I going to get through this day? Or how am I going to pay my employees?" And then you say to yourself, "I can do it. I can get this done. How am I going to get it done?" And then I go, "Okay, I'm going to do this first, then I'm going to do that, and I'm going to get it done." And that's how people, you know, you move forward one foot at a time. Jeff: You do it together. My experience in startups was one where—you think about a startup as maybe the stereotypical male startup of the "sainted soul," you know, Steve Jobs or whoever. Zuckerberg. But my experience in startups is that it is way, way more of a collective endeavor. And startups by their very nature are going to be smaller than enormous multinationals, and so you can be more collective. There are fewer layers of middle management and command and control because it's a smaller group of people so you don't need those things in order to be productive. And when you wake up and you don't know how you're going to make payroll, it's much more likely that you're going to have a conversation with somebody in person across the way who might offer a perspective that gets the whole organization to a solution a lot faster. And that kind of shared sharing in the experience of overcoming adversity is a critical element of being human and of humanity in the sort of best and most positive sense. I clearly have an agenda here which is to encourage any of our younger listeners to consider working in a small company. Kay: You're absolutely right. It's a small group of people, you've got a mission, you've got a business that you're trying to get into the marketplace, and you come to the table and each person—it might be three people, it might be five people—but you're there together. And overcoming challenges together has a lasting positive effect on our value. How we are as people. In fact today, I have another of my group from USA Network. We've been out of USA for 26 years, 27 years maybe. We are still together. Every other month, we get in a different locations. Some of us are in New York, some are in LA, some are in other places that they are, in Europe or whatever. We still get together because we had that amazing experience of building something from an idea to a powerhouse together and we had to bridge a lot of challenges. And there isn't anything that can substitute it, really, in a lot of ways. And it's not about money. It's about our value together and what we did together. And I think to me that's one of the most exciting things. Now sometimes people get that from being in larger corporations and people, but if you join a bigger company, it often depends on who's leader of the team that you're on and what is their success. It may have nothing to do with you in terms of success or failure because if that person falls out of place, all of a sudden you're lost. Your team has to go over to this team and then this team may not want you on their team and people navigate their way successfully to the top of corporations. I'm not saying they don't, but it's a different experience than being an entrepreneur. Jeff: I'm going to plug two books today. Yours in just a moment, but also Julie Wainwright wrote a book called Time to Get Real about her experience building The RealReal. And she's got a great section—I actually taught it in my class in January—she's got a great section on that corporate environment and how it works, and she's being sort of empirical and objective, and how you're going to have a different experience there than you are in a smaller company where you do have more of a natural environment for pulling together. Can I read you a couple of quotes from your book? It's called Bold Women, Big Ideas. You may not have the whole book memorized after 25 years because you published this in '01 or '02. Kay: Remind me what I said! Jeff: I read it over January into February. I found it to be incredibly relevant to today's moment because you were chronicling the peak of the dot-com capital craze, the peak of the dot-com facilitated rapid change in business and society because of new technologies, not just internet but also biotech as well. And a lot of the dynamics that you describe are what we're experiencing today with the latest emergence of a new disruptive technology that we're all having to adapt to. Bear with me, but I'm going to ask you a question at the end of a few quotes. So, the first is not a quote of yours, it's from a mentor of yours, Reuben Mark, who was CEO of Colgate. And he said to you, "Kay, it isn't enough for you to be a role model as CEO. Just because you're the CEO doesn't necessarily get others to realize that women minorities are worthy of it. You've got to be proactive. You've got to inspire others to think and act the way you do. If you really believe in helping others, that's your obligation." Take that as the backdrop to start. Then you say, "There's something seductive for me in traveling into the unknown. The journey itself thrills me and I don't think I'd ever feel altogether happy if I didn't know there was risk involved. Surely the risk of the unknown that takes me down Class V whitewater rivers and to the top of peaks, and it's not so different in the business world." And then you say, "The simple truth is that once I get a big potent idea, it moves me to distraction. I feel compelled to try to move others with me. At the risk of repeating myself, I'm very motivated by the power of ideas." One of the ways that you inspire me is that you have built a career both in service to a community and in the business and material success of that community and of your own. So you didn't sort of go off sit in the nonprofit world at a key juncture in your career and you didn't go off and just slay dragons as an investor at that key moment in your career. You've found a way to balance both service and success in the business world. And you've done that for 25 years and that room at the Springboard gala was full of just a small number of the people who've been inspired and empowered by this duality. My question is: how does that continue to sustain you? And a two-part question: how does that continue to sustain you, and what's the big idea that you're most—that you're locked in on right now? I could imagine there is one. Kay: Let me go back to Reuben Marks for a moment. Because what Reuben was saying to me is it's not enough for you to be the leader of the change of what a leader looks like. At that point in time, studios had bought in. One of them was Universal and Paramount, the other was Time Inc. And Sid Sheinberg, the head of the president of Universal, every time I walked into his office to see him if I was in LA and stopped by to see him, he'd say, "Here comes the CEO. You don't look like a CEO," he'd say to me every time. And I said, "Get used to it, baby. This is what a CEO looks like." So we would get—we had this little thing that we'd do all the time, you know? But I was trying to say to him, "I don't have to look like you." Reuben Mark said to me something else that was important. He said if you really believe in diversity as a key element of your success in your business, then you have to motivate people internally and you have to adjust their bonuses to actually perform and have diversity in... So the head of sales and the head of distribution and the head of advertising and the head of the... within a corporation, part of their bonus had to focus on the fact that you wanted to have diversity within the company. You wanted to have different—I didn't want everybody in my legal department to be Jewish. I didn't want everybody in my sales department to be Italian. I didn't want everybody in my... it was sort of a little bit like that. And I said, "You know what? Reuben's right. I've got to do that." I had to change the motivation for people within my own company even though I was a leader of them all. That sort of thing I thought was really kind of important for people to understand. Why do I, after 25 years of, you know—when I started the whole thing was Springboard, it wasn't like I had this idea that I was going to do this for the rest of my life. I just wanted to get it off the launch pad. But then the dot-com bust. And I knew that women felt they were going to get shoved out and I said, "I can't leave them out here. We're not leaving them, we're going to go on." And we went on, we went on to Washington D.C. that year, we went on to Boston that year in the year 2000, and we made it very clear: we're going on. You're going with us. I didn't want them to feel that they were being abandoned because everybody was being pushed out, but it felt very bad for women who had just started to get in. Actually out of that first year, we had five IPOs eventually. So it was, you know, they were companies that were actually well on their way when we found them. So I think that what motivates me is learning. I am a constant aggressive learner. And these people teach me every single day. It's like I am going to university every single day. They know more than I do. I'm pretty good at some things, but they—people in biotech, I was in biology as a minor, I liked operating on my rat. I would carry my rat around in my... and the history of science was my favorite course in college, in my undergraduate for... I didn't know that was going to be my favorite course! I just love learning things. And I think some of the biggest wins going forward from today are going to be in biological sciences, in the administration of our healthcare in this country and around the world, that people are going to have better access to their own—it's going to be much more individual. I believe very strongly that people, once the individual understands what their condition is, they will make choices based on cost and outcome. And this is—you're seeing this already. When you saw a year and a half ago actually now, when Eli Lilly took their GPL-1 treatment direct to consumer. Well they were trying to stem actually Ro and Hims & Hers and other people that were generic producers of it, but that has now becoming a more viable way for people to access those types of drugs for diabetes and weight loss. You're going to see more movement into the market. And in this country, in the United States, we need improvement. Our healthcare system is very difficult to navigate. Most people don't have a concierge. Many people still don't have a viable healthcare plan. And currently many are being pushed out. You say "what are you excited about?" There are so many things. I'm still in space; I've still got stuff going on in space. But if you ask me what I think is going to be the best improvement for us going forward in the next several years, I would look in this space. There is so much that has to be improved, should be improved, and we can improve. And we can take better care of ourselves knowing more about ourselves individually because we have the tools to be able to measure ourselves today in a variety of different ways. I'm very excited about that. And I learn from the entrepreneurs every single day the pathway. So you ask me what's exciting to me? That's exciting. Jeff: Balancing service and success through a love of learning for the 25 years that you've been an investor and have, you know, been whether you planned it or not, you know, been one of the many amazing people but one of the key person driving Springboard. And I'm with you on the health thing. It's a really exciting time. And talk about chaos, I don't think we've seen anything yet in the most positive sense when it comes to individual health. Kay: Well Jeff, you know a lot more about it than I do, you know, so I'm going to learn from you as well. And MJ is going to teach me what the younger people are, because you know, we all live in our time. So we have to adjust to our time, whatever that is. And I have a lot of—as I said—grandnieces and nephews who are the same age you are, and you know, I watch how they're making decisions about what they're going to do. I have a PhD in chemistry, on the other hand I've got a welder. And he actually creates bronze artwork. And welders aren't going away. MJ: Yeah! Well Kay, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a really incredible discussion. You are such an inspiration. Thank you for taking the time to give some advice to the people my generation. Hopefully we can seize the moment and embrace the chaos and follow your advice. Kay: Thank you very much for inviting me in. Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure! I'll keep learning from you. Jeff: Thank you, Kay. Take care! Kay: Okay, bye-bye. MJ: Bye-bye. (28:22) [Outro music plays: "Ones and zeros, vectors and scalars. What do you see in that machine? I gave you my heart, my warmth and Snapchat. You chose a robot, now I'm alone."] Jeff: You Teach the Machines is hosted and produced by me, Jeff Pennington, and co-hosted by my daughter, MJ. Please take a minute to review and subscribe to You Teach the Machines wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. Copyright 2026. Any and all use of the audio recording of You Teach the Machines for training or other contribution to artificial intelligence models or their application is expressly forbidden without the permission of the creator. And we'd love to give you permission, so long as you come on the show! </div>

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What is You Teach The Machines?: Hot takes on living with AI from the first generation who has no choice: today's college students.
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