Hear inspiring stories of career reinvention from professionals around the world who changed course to pursue more meaningful work. Hosted by career consultant Joseph Liu, with listeners in 170+ countries.
Career Relaunch®
Claim This Podcastby Joseph Liu
4.5(13 reviews)
111 episodes
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Hear inspiring stories of career reinvention from professionals around the world who changed course to pursue more meaningful work. Hosted by career consultant Joseph Liu, with listeners in 170+ countries.
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Publishing Since
9/6/2016
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Fostering Strong Relationships with Luke Parker- CR110
<p>In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, <strong>Luke Parker, a British Army Officer turned Google Cloud delivery executive </strong>shares his thoughts on how professional relationships can open doors and the importance of self-marketing during career transitions. I also share my reflections on the state of modern day friendships and glimpses into.my personal story of how people I’ve crossed paths with in life have had a huge influence on my career.</p> <h4>💡 Key Career Insights</h4> <ol> <li>Self-marketing matters. Proactively driving visibility for yourself and what you want to be known for can open new doors.</li> <li>Maintaining relationships is critical, but it takes work. You never know what a connection of yours may create for you in the future.</li> <li>Your nontraditional background isn’t necessarily a liability. In fact, it may be the precise reason you’re able to add unique value in environments where people have more traditional backgrounds.</li> </ol> <h4>✅ Share Thoughts on Friendship with Joseph</h4> <ul> <li><a href="https://josephliu.fillout.com/friendshipsurvey" target="_blank" rel="noopener">👉🏼Complete friendship survey👈🏼</a></li> </ul> <h4>📚 Relevant Resources</h4> <ul> <li>A few <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/parker-luke/">friendship resources</a> I’ve compiled.</li> <li>I mentioned <a href="https://thomsinger.com/books/">The ABCs of Networking</a> by Thom Singer who said that if people don’t immediately respond to you, you should not take it personally.</li> <li><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/josephliu/2026/02/04/7-practical-ways-to-add-value-to-your-professional-network/">7 Practical Ways To Add Value To Your Professional Network</a>– my Forbes article about giving back to your network</li> <li>During the Mental Fuel® segment, I ended with a quote from Robert Waldinger who wrote the <a href="https://the-good-life-book.com">The Good Life: Lessons from the World’s Longest Scientific Study on Happiness</a>.</li> </ul> <hr /> <h4 id="mentalfuel">💪🏼Listener Challenge</h4> <p><img decoding="async" class="wp-image-9332 size-full alignleft" src="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel.png" alt="" width="150 height=" srcset="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel.png 2180w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-150x150.png 150w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-300x300.png 300w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-768x768.png 768w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-1024x1024.png 1024w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-157x157.png 157w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-400x400.png 400w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-510x510.png 510w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-1080x1080.png 1080w" sizes="(max-width: 2180px) 100vw, 2180px" />From today’s Mental Fuel® segment, I’d like to challenge you to reconnect with someone in your professional or personal network with whom you’ve lost touch. Start with someone who’s been consistently energizing, helpful, supportive, or even inspiring to you. Instead of just sending a text message or email or LinkedIn message, pick up the phone and call them, send them a voice note, record a video message, or even drop a card in the mail if you really want to change things up.</p> <div class="clearfix"></div> <hr /> <h4>📖 Episode Chapters</h4> <p>00:00:00 Epsiode preview<br /> 00:01:07 Introduction<br /> 00:02:23 Chat with Luke<br /> 00:04:14 Luke’s military career<br /> 00:13:03 Transitioning to the private sector<br /> 00:18:24 Networking & self-marketing<br /> 00:23:31 Life at Google<br /> 00:30:06 Antebellum Angels<br /> 00:32:44 Mental Fuel®: nurturing relationships<br /> 00:39:58 Listener Challenge: reconnect with someone<br /> 00:44:22 Wrap-up</p> <hr /> <h4>👤 About Luke Parker</h4> <p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/parker-luke/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" class="alignnone wp-image-30526 " src="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/Luke-Parker.jpg" alt="Luke Parker" width="510" height="510" /></a></p> <p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/parker-luke/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Luke Parker</a> is a Delivery Executive at Google Cloud, where he manages complex, Air-Gapped programs for strategic clients. A former British Army Officer with over 11 years of service, Luke brings a unique perspective on leadership, having transitioned from commanding Royal Engineers Explosive Ordnance Disposal and Search (EOD&S) teams to driving digital transformation in the public sector. Beyond his role at Google, Luke is a DataIQ Top 100 influencer and the Co-Founder of <a href="https://antebellumangels.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Ante-Bellum Angels</a>, a network investing in early-stage defense technology. He also holds a Master’s (Msc) in Geospatial Intelligence, and is a Chartered Engineer (CEng).<br /> Connect with Luke on <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/parker-luke/">LinkedIn</a>.</p> <h4>👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!</h4> <ul> <li><strong>Review</strong>: I’d also love for you to <a href="https://josephliu.co/apple-podcasts-review" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">leave a positive review and rating</a> for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers.</li> <li><strong>Follow</strong>: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on <a href="https://josephliu.co/applepodcasts" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podcasts</a>, <a href="https://josephliu.co/spotify" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Spotify</a>, <a href="https://josephliu.co/amazon" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Amazon Music</a>, or <a href="https://josephliu.co/android" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Android</a> so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full <a href="https://josephliu.co/career-relaunch-subscribe" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">instructions</a>.</li> <li><strong>Stay in touch</strong>: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on <a href="https://facebook.com/CareerRelaunch" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Facebook</a> and <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/careerrelaunch" target="_blank" rel="noopener">LinkedIn</a>. You can also follow host Joseph on <a href="https://linkedin.com/in/josephpliu" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">LinkedIn</a>, <a href="https://www.instagram.com/careerrelaunch/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Instagram, </a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/@JosephPLiu" target="_blank" rel="noopener">YouTube</a>, <a href="https://facebook.com/JosephLiuCo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Facebook</a>, <a href="https://www.threads.com/@josephpliu" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Threads</a>, and <a href="https://bsky.app/profile/josephpliu.bsky.social" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Bluesky</a>.</li> </ul> <h4>💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?</h4> <p>If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!<br /> <a class="button orange" href="https://josephliu.co/voicemail" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"><span class="dashicons dashicons-microphone"> </span>Leave Joseph a Voicemail</a><br /> You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!</p> <h4>🙏🏻 Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast</h4> <p><a href="http://careerrelaunch.net/wise" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><img decoding="async" class="alignright wp-image-27708" src="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Wise.webp" alt="Try Wise" width="125" height="125" /></a>Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at <a href="https://careerrelaunch.net/wise" target="_blank" rel="noopener">CareerRelalunch.net/wise</a>.</p> <div class="episode_transcript"> <h4 id="transcript">📄 Episode Transcript</h4> <p>[00:00:00] <strong>Luke: </strong>If you expect something to happen straight away, then you’re thinking in a transactional networking mindset, which is not a healthy mindset. Networking is a long game. And so the earlier you can connect with someone and the more that you can keep that engagement going, the better.</p> <p>[00:00:16] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast, where my mission is to inspire you to pursue more meaningful work. My name is Joseph Liu, and I’m here to help you gain the clarity, confidence, and courage to overcome the challenges of reinventing your career so you can truly enjoy your professional life. In each episode, I feature people who have stepped off the beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they overcame and the lessons they learned along the way. To help you understand what it takes to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest is going to share his story of going from serving in the British Army to working at Google Cloud. We’ll discuss how professional relationships can open doors in your career and the importance of self-marketing during professional transitions. Afterwards, during today’s mental fuel. I’ll share my thoughts on maintaining strong relationships in your career and life. Today, I’m speaking with Luke Parker, a delivery executive at Google Cloud, where he manages complex airgapped programs for strategic clients. A former British Army officer with over 11 years of experience, Luke brings a unique perspective on leadership, having transitioned from commanding Royal Engineers, explosive ordnance disposal and search teams to driving digital transformation in the public sector.</p> <p>[00:01:30] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Beyond his role at Google, Luke is a DataIQ top 100 influencer and the co-founder of Antebellum Angels, a network investing in early stage defense technologies. He also holds a master’s in geospatial intelligence and is a chartered engineer. Now, I first crossed paths with Luke when I heard him speak on a career change panel that followed a talk I gave at Warwick Business School, where he’s completing his executive MBA. I decided to invite him to come on to the show because I thought his comments on the panel really stood out as being very thoughtful and practical, and his perspectives of shifting from the military to the tech sector can be useful to anyone who is considering a major career pivot, but is not exactly sure how to lay the groundwork for your transition. You can get all the show notes from today’s conversation at careerrelaunch.net/110. Luke spoke with me from London.</p> <p>[00:02:23] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Hello, Luke, and welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast. It’s great to have you on the show.</p> <p>[00:02:27] <strong>Luke: </strong>Hey, it’s great to be here. Joseph. Thank you for inviting me.</p> <p>[00:02:31] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Before we get into your whole career history, I’d love to start off by just finding out what you have been focused on and what’s been keeping you busy in both your professional life and also your personal life. Just to get us started.</p> <p>[00:02:42] <strong>Luke: </strong>My day job. I am a delivery leader at Google Cloud and that keeps you quite busy on its own. I also am finishing off my executive MBA at Warwick Business School currently. And so my thesis has been submitted in the next 4 to 5 weeks. So every spare moment I’m not working, I’m diligently typing to hit the required word count. On top of that, I’ve got a two year old. For those parents in the listenership that have a two year old, you know that that’s a full time job in itself. But I have a fantastic wife that helps there or does most of the work.</p> <p>[00:03:21] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Now, I should also mention that you and I first crossed paths at Warwick Business School, and I was doing a workshop on personal branding. I heard you on a career change panel that followed my workshop, and I know that you did talk a little bit at the time about what a. I guess your official title is Delivery Executive at Google Cloud. Could you just give a glimpse into exactly what that means to somebody who maybe isn’t familiar with Google Cloud, or even what a delivery executive does.</p> <p>[00:03:51] <strong>Luke: </strong>At Google Cloud, a delivery executive leads multifaceted teams delivering the most complex cloud transformation programs. And so although the term has executive, you are not an executive in the formal sense, but it’s a senior delivery role that brings together multiple teams for lighthouse customers.</p> <p>[00:04:14] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Great. Now, you haven’t always been at Google Cloud, and I would love to just go back in time a little bit. And first of all, just get a sense of where you grew up, where you’re from, maybe a little bit about your upbringing and your childhood. And then after that, we can talk about your time in the British Army.</p> <p>[00:04:31] <strong>Luke: </strong>I am from Rotherham in South Yorkshire, which is in the north of England. I lived there until I was about 16, so I had a very good upbringing. South Yorkshire is, I would say, quite a deprived part of the UK. The history of the area. It used to be quite an industrialised steel and mining part of the UK, which suffered a lot through mining and steelworks shutdowns. But I think I was relatively insulated from that. I went to a great school at 16. I decided that I was going to join the Army, the British Army.</p> <p>[00:05:08] <strong>Joseph: </strong>And how did you come to that decision, Luke? Because that’s a big decision to move into the military versus, I suppose, continuing on in your education more formally.</p> <p>[00:05:18] <strong>Luke: </strong>My great grandfather was a soldier in World War II, and I had his medals and his pictures. I didn’t really ever get to talk to him about his experiences. I was too young by the time he passed away, but I was always really in awe of the pictures and the medals that he had. And I started reading about World War Two, and since then, no one in my family has been part of the armed forces. However, I think we’re a family of service. My uncle and my sister are in the police force. My mum is part of the NHS and so I think service kind of runs in our family and giving back. And I saw my kind of call to arms as joining the British Army.</p> <p>[00:06:10] <strong>Joseph: </strong>And I understand you would eventually go to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. How do you enlist in the Army? What’s that selection process like?</p> <p>[00:06:19] <strong>Luke: </strong>There’s multiple routes into the army. The first way you normally go to a recruitment office and you do an aptitude test, which gives you options for what you can consider. And I was lucky enough that my options enabled me to become an officer or to apply to become an officer directly. There’s two routes in as a director, as an officer, or as a soldier. I was presented with the offer to become a, what they call an army bursar at 16. If you pass the selection, they will pay you a small amount to complete your studies up until 18. So finish your A-levels and you go for a weekend and you have a bunch of tests, physical tests, running assault course leadership tests which involve problem solving. It’s all about teamwork and showing leadership potential at that young age. I finished that, I passed, I was given the recommendation that I should become an officer and go to Sandhurst for training when I was of age, which is either 18 or onwards, and I got to 18 so I finished my A-levels and then the Army reached out again and said, we’d actually like to offer you a scholarship and you can go to university and do a bachelor’s degree in a subject of your choice. And as long as you get a 2:1, you can proceed to Sandhurst.</p> <p>[00:07:45] <strong>Joseph: </strong>I know that you also spent a year doing what I understand is infantry training. Now, I’m not super familiar with how things work in the military or the army. I probably wouldn’t last more than a few hours in any sort of training myself in the military. Can you just give a glimpse into that world? And also the contrast between being out there, doing that sort of military training and then being back in the classroom and how you flipped back and forth between the two.</p> <p>[00:08:14] <strong>Luke: </strong>After I finished my degree, I went to Sandhurst. Sandhurst was established after the Second World War, and it’s a 44 week training course to regular officers and reserves and international personnel as well. It takes you from a civilian with just the potential leadership attributes into a British Army second lieutenant, which is a junior officer. Over that time, and I wasn’t in the infantry, but they use that as the training vehicle in that it takes someone down to the rawest form of leadership there is, which is commanding a small team of up to 3035 soldiers in arduous, strenuous situations where discipline and courage is paramount, is what I believe to be one of the best ways to train leaders who subsequently want to go and serve in all different parts of the army, but they all go through this same training. And so you are a soldier first and a leader first in that sense.</p> <p>[00:09:25] <strong>Joseph: </strong>And it sounds like in the military, which isn’t that dissimilar, although it’s a very different world, isn’t that dissimilar from any career path where you’ve got to make a decision about where you want to head. And as you just mentioned, there’s a lot of different options. How did you go about figuring out where to take yourself? I don’t know to what extent you had a choice, but it sounds like you do have some say in which direction to go, and I’d be curious to hear how you went through that thought process of eventually shifting toward engineering.</p> <p>[00:09:54] <strong>Luke: </strong>It’s split into three terms, and at the end of the first term, you give a bunch of choices that you would be interested in going into when you finish. And at the time, I was really interested in joining the Yorkshire Regiment, which is a infantry regiment, and the other choices were engineers, and I think it was artillery. And after the first term had completed and you spend, you know, multiple weeks out in a ditch, rained on, hungry, tired, you know, your feet hurt. I was like, you know, is this what I want to do? My internal monologue was, I don’t think you would be happy in this role for long. So I started looking. What else? My second choice was the Royal Engineers. I’ve always been a very hands on practical person, and the Royal Engineers have such a breadth of different specialties that you can go into, whether that’s armoured engineering. So tractors and diggers and bridge layers all the way to being airborne or commando or bomb disposal or a diver or light role. So there’s all sorts of different flavours of combat engineer. And I thought that that would give me a fantastic breadth of experience, which if I became disenfranchised with a part of the engineers, you could always reroll into a different part of engineering. So it offered a really flexible career for the long haul.</p> <p>[00:11:28] <strong>Joseph: </strong>How was that experience overall for you up until this point of being in the military? And I suppose what’s behind my question is trying to get an understanding of whether at this point you saw yourself remaining in the military as an engineer or like, at what point did you start to think that this was maybe just the beginning of something else?</p> <p>[00:11:50] <strong>Luke: </strong>When I first commissioned, I truly believed that I was going to be a career soldier. A career for an officer spans normally between 18 and 25 years or so, and I thought I was in it for the long haul, especially at the start, because you’ve come out of 44 weeks of hard graft. I don’t think you would last that 44 weeks if you were just in it for like, oh, I’m just here for a couple of years.</p> <p>[00:12:16] <strong>Joseph: </strong>What made you deviate from that path? And my understanding, when we last spoke before we started recording was that it’s actually probably the most common path to just stay in the Army. So I’d be curious, do you remember the moment that triggered you to then deviate from that path?</p> <p>[00:12:34] <strong>Luke: </strong>I think it was maybe, I would say, starting to get into, say, 6 to 8 years in. So my early career was great. I loved being at 101. I was a royal engineer search advisor. That person leads a team in trying to locate bombs and IEDs. I left there and I joined a training regiment and I led what’s called instructor troop. So this troop selects the instructors across the Corps, which is arguably one of the most important jobs, being an instructor in the Corps, because you’re bringing the next generation of soldiers through. I then was sent to do a master’s degree in geospatial intelligence, and I started to get a sense of a more technical route and the story that joined the two together. I started to notice when I was in EOD was finding bombs and IEDs as a pattern in space and time. And it’s the linkage between psychology and ground and capability. And that means that you can use analytics to determine where is more likely to be a bomb. I started to hone this skill in, and it started to get me interested in the wider world of analytics and data. That started to get me thinking about what might be out there.</p> <p>[00:14:03] <strong>Joseph: </strong>I think this happens sometimes, Luke, where you’re in a particular field and you start to get an inkling that there might be something else out there. Was there anything in particular that then convinced you that you need more proactively explore different paths, perhaps outside of the military? And I’m just going to float out. One of the things that you mentioned to me in our last conversation was that I know that you were doing a lot of personal writing when you were in the military, so I’d be curious to hear what role that played and also just how you made the choice to explore something outside of the military.</p> <p>[00:14:36] <strong>Luke: </strong>My thesis for my master’s was all about spatial patterns of measles outbreak in the UK, and how that was linked to social deprivation around the UK. And I finished that about six months before the first Covid cases hit the UK. And this led to a really interesting opportunity where I asked to be sent UK government to help with Covid response and analytics. That was a really tough 12 to 18 months as most people that lived through that can attest to. For so many reasons. But the work that I did there got me recognition. The analytical processes that I put in place led to me being put on an industry list, which is called the data IQ 100, which is the 100 most influential people in the UK for data and analytics. And that was the first year that someone in the military had been put on that list. But I would find interesting problems that I could solve with geospatial intelligence. And one of them was how we could increase our carbon sequestration across defense estates. We created this model, which showed that you could increase about 16% afforestation rates across most of the UK training estates. That was published in a University of Oxford study, which was fantastic. And it also was the start of me really starting to get recognised by people outside of the military.</p> <p>[00:16:13] <strong>Joseph: </strong>So it sounds like you managed to drive some visibility for yourself. Part of it was through being on the industry watch list. Part of it was people then starting to notice you. And just to kind of change gears here a little bit as you think now about your eventual shift into the corporate world, if there was 1 or 2 things that you feel you did that opened that door for you. What do you think those were? As you were making that transition?</p> <p>[00:16:40] <strong>Luke: </strong>I think the first one is self-marketing. My personal view is that people in the military, they do not like Self-marketing. However, I’m a huge believer that we make our own luck, and part of that is being able to get over the initial embarrassment you may feel of marketing your own achievements. Sharing what you have done and achieved. And the second part is networking. So I was very lucky in the industry watch list. I got to network with some exceptionally connected people. But maintaining those connections is hard work, and you just never know where a connection will bring you in the future. I think that that was from my point of view, the pivot to get me out of defense. I promoted to the rank of major and they kind of rules of promotion. Once you hit major, it’s unlikely that you will get a chance to be considered for the next rank, which is a lieutenant colonel for 6 to 7 years. And for me, that was a little bit too slow. I would see that as a stagnation. And so I started having a look outside and seeing what else was there. My thing was I wanted to work in technology. So I reached out to multiple people across technology that I’d met over the last few years, but also were people who had also served in the military. So finding that mutual community group that you share values with, the chances are you already share a bond with that person through the experiences that you’ve jointly had, even if you didn’t serve directly with that person. And they seem to be very amenable to helping one another out.</p> <p>[00:18:24] <strong>Joseph: </strong>You’ve mentioned a few things there. I’d love to pick up on this idea of networking and also maintaining connections. And one of the questions I often get from clients and audience members, Luke, is I’m reaching out to people and two questions slash concerns come up and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this. One is, what do you say when you’re reaching out to these people? And the second question is around, I’ve met this person. Nothing’s materialized. First of all, how do you reach out and then how did you manage what happened afterwards, especially if what happened afterwards was nothing? How did you think about that in the context of networking?</p> <p>[00:19:02] <strong>Luke: </strong>I was reluctant initially to start reaching out cold to people. What I started with was posting about things that I was interested in, and actually you find that you get engagement. So if someone likes your post and then you connect with them or they comment on your post and then you connect with them, the chances are that they’re going to accept the connection because they’ve seen what you’re interested in. So I think part of it is be happy. Whatever platform that you’re interested in writing about is start speaking about the things that interest you and everyone. And I mean everyone has something that would be interesting to talk about. Doesn’t have to be what you’re doing currently. It could be something completely different. But if there’s something that you have a passion for, that you have an opinion on, start posting about it and then connect with those people. You know, if someone doesn’t want to connect with you, whether that be LinkedIn or then I would be looking at in-person events. I’ve been told recently that I was old school, but I always carry cards with me.</p> <p>[00:20:06] <strong>Joseph: </strong>I do too.</p> <p>[00:20:07] <strong>Luke: </strong>I’ve come away from conferences with, say, like 30 cards. I’ve not done it right away, but the next day I’ll go through them and have a look and make sure that I’ve reached out.</p> <p>[00:20:15] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Yeah, I think I handed you a card when we first met, and I’m a big fan of business cards and taking some notes on people and then following up the next day on those notes. So that’s something that I always recommend people do. Going back to just the second part of that question is what do people don’t respond? Not even that they don’t respond. But let’s say you meet with them and nothing comes of it. You go, you meet, you have a great conversation. And oftentimes I hear from people, nothing happens after that. How do you think people should think about the idea that things don’t materialize into something concrete right away?</p> <p>[00:20:47] <strong>Luke: </strong>If you expect something to happen straight away, then you’re thinking in a transactional networking mindset, which is not a healthy mindset, i.e. I met this person, they should do something for me, networking is a long, long game. And so the earlier you can connect with someone and the more that you can keep that engagement going, the better. What I would say is, what’s the phrase don’t put down to malice? What can be attributed to incompetence or something like that? I’m not saying people are incompetent. What I’m saying is people are busy. You never know what’s happening in someone’s life. They may have just missed something. You may have gone to junk. You have no idea. But give it 2 or 3 rolls of the dice. You know, every now and then you send an update after 2 or 3 times if there’s nothing there. It’s clear that they don’t want to talk to you, but the first time they don’t respond. It may have been lost. It may have been a really bad day. You just don’t know. So I wouldn’t put it down to people not wanting to connect.</p> <p>[00:21:48] <strong>Joseph: </strong>I think that’s a great reminder, I think. Tom Singer in the ABCs of networking, he says that some people you reach out to are just not going to respond. Don’t take it personally. It’s exactly what you said. You have no idea what’s happening in their life. Just switching gears to the most recent chapter that you’re now in as you shift over to Google, I know that one of the seeds that got planted was you reached out to vets in Google, as I understand it. And that’s how you one of the ways you got your foot in the door and I’d love to hear about your transition into Google, how you made that happen. And then we can talk a little bit about some of the things you’re also working on on the side here.</p> <p>[00:22:22] <strong>Luke: </strong>Google has a veterans network. I think a lot of big corporations have veterans networks, and I worked out the head of the Veterans Network where I was, was a chap called Henry Chin. And I reached out to Henry and said that I was interested in Google. I would love to come down and have coffee or just have a look around. And he was really kind and invited me down, showed me around and had a really, really good chat with me and he gave me a few names. So then I followed out to those people and the next guy turned out we’d been in the same unit together, although we didn’t cross over. So I was like, hey, can I come down for lunch? So I think I visited maybe three times, three different people. What I would say is that that was a help to me. So meeting those people, understanding their roles was a real help. What it doesn’t do is it doesn’t guarantee you a route in. You still have to apply like everyone else. You still have to go through the same interviews like everyone else and hit the same standards. It allows you to dial in to the types of roles that you would like to start your pivot with.</p> <p>[00:23:31] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Now that you are at Google, can you fill me in on anything that has surprised you about what it took to get into Google, or even just life working at Google?</p> <p>[00:23:44] <strong>Luke: </strong>I love it, I love working here. I think the people are fantastic. I’m constantly amazed by the level of talent you may have covered in other podcasts about people having imposter syndrome, but when you’re dealing with people who are pushing one another because they are at the top of the bell curve for their area, you’ve got through the process back yourself. It’s given me a chance to reflect on what I’m good at. You know, I bring a new perspective. I come from a background that Google doesn’t have a huge amount of people that have that experience. And so I bring something to the team dynamic that not many people have. And I think everyone in Google that does that brings something and is valued.</p> <p>[00:24:31] <strong>Joseph: </strong>I would love to talk a little bit now, Luke, about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your journey. And I would love to start by, first of all, picking up on something you just mentioned, which is the idea that you’re coming from a non-traditional, more atypical background. And combining that with the earlier comment you mentioned about imposter syndrome. And I’m just curious if somebody’s listening to this and maybe they’re working in an organization and they’re a bit of an outlier and they feel like they’re surrounded by all these people who are perhaps at least they perceive them to be more skilled, talented, experienced, whatever. How would you recommend somebody deal with that? How have you dealt with that? If you’ve felt any of that.</p> <p>[00:25:15] <strong>Luke: </strong>The way to win in this world is to be very, very good at a few things and not worry about being good at everything. Be the known person for the thing that makes you the best. And I think too much at the moment. There’s a push to be a generalist. And we can take the MBA, for example. It’s a very general master’s degree, but what it should be used is it should be used to reinforce something that you’re already great at. And I was again, super fortunate in that I was given a full scholarship to do my MBA by a charity called <a href="https://www.forcesemployment.org.uk/programmes/heropreneurs/">Heropreneurs</a>, which is a defense charity which supports entrepreneurial minded veterans and service leavers and, and also families. So I won this full scholarship and you have to give a pitch and talk about why you. What are you going to do with this opportunity? I used a quote in my pitch and I love this quote and I use it all the time. And the quote is, what stands in the way becomes the way. And find the thing that’s holding you back and focus on that. That is your way now. So it doesn’t have to be everything but one thing at a time. So for me, I had in my head that I was in the military, and what was going to hold me back was I didn’t know enough about business and finance and the corporate pillars that would hold me back in a civilian job. So that became the way and that helped me into Sandhurst. And it also helped me on the way out of the Army into industry.</p> <p>[00:27:05] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Another question I had for you, Luke, just going back to one of your earlier points was this idea of self Self-promoting without overly self-promoting. And this is a really tricky balance. I know a lot of people, including me, struggle with. Can you walk me through how you think about ensuring that you’re not bragging about yourself while also advocating for yourself? And how can you tell when you’re doing too much of it? And how can you tell when you’re doing too little of it?</p> <p>[00:27:33] <strong>Luke: </strong>I try and just stick to facts. I think that’s the easiest way, you know, if you have one something or if you have published something like saying that you’ve won something is not embellishing anything, or, you know, if you’ve published it, say, hey, you know, I’ve wrote this paper, I’m throwing it out there, let me think, throw stones at it. And I think having maybe an inner circle of people that you trust to give you accurate advice that will tell you if you’re going too far and that you listen to those people.</p> <p>[00:28:09] <strong>Joseph: </strong>That’s great advice. Just be able to have people around you who can honestly and candidly sense check you without you getting too defensive about it and being able to receive that feedback. So important. There’s a quote, I’m sure you’ve heard this quote from Jim Rohn saying that you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So try to surround yourself, as you mentioned, with the types of people who are doing the things that you want to be doing. And that’s a great place to start and also a great place to get some feedback. Speaking of feedback, if we think about our own internal feedback, as you think about your very interesting career change journey, if you could go back and have a do over with something along the way of your journey from the military into the private sector, into Google, is there anything that comes to mind, like what you might do differently now that you have the fortune of 2020 hindsight?</p> <p>[00:29:01] <strong>Luke: </strong>I think when I heard that I got a guaranteed job, I took my foot off the gas and I chose geography as my bachelor’s degree. During my time in the military, I decided that I wanted to become a chartered engineer, but I didn’t have an engineering background, so I had to work like super hard to overcome the fact that I didn’t. I had to use a lot more practical experience to get me through the process. And when I reflect on that, you know, in my head, because I was going to the military forever, it didn’t matter that I had a BSc in geography, but it should have been, I know it should have been civil or mechanical engineering. And I do think about that a lot. It makes me think about what I’m doing now and say, is this thing that you are thinking is guaranteed or you have a role, you have a role now. Luke, are you taking a lazy choice professionally or personally because you are in this role? And if the answer is yes, then that is the thing that’s in the way and that becomes the way.</p> <p>[00:30:06] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Speaking of continuing to keep pushing yourself and not getting complacent, Luke, can you wrap us up by telling me a little bit more about Antebellum Angels, which is a venture you co-founded in 2024, on top of your day job at Google?</p> <p>[00:30:20] <strong>Luke: </strong>So when I was on my MBA, I met another veteran called Jake, who is a co-founder of Antebellum Angels, and Jake and I had fell victim to what I call the friends, families and fools rays of a startup. So we both knew a friend who was doing a startup and they’d said, hey, we’re raising some money. You’re my friend. Do you want to invest in this company that I’m starting up? And these were separate things, but we both did it. And we had no idea what angel investing was. And unsurprisingly, the things that we put money in were didn’t go very well. So we were talking about, you know, but it’s exciting. Angel investing is exciting. So how could we increase our chances of investing in things that would go well. Well, you invest in things that you know a lot about. Jake and I both knew enough about defense technology from our time in service, and we started looking. Was there a group that invested specifically in defense technology startups in the UK? And we couldn’t find one anywhere. And so Jake and I decided to set up the UK’s first defence first angel investing group for defence technology called Antebellum Angels. Since then, we have grown to about 30 people. Most of the people are ex UK forces or civil servants that have left and have a speciality. And what we’ve created is this critical mass of 30 people who are able to technically analyze different startups in defense and determine whether they are investable for us as a group. And it’s going really well.</p> <p>[00:32:02] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Well, that’s very exciting. I appreciate you taking me through your career journey and telling us more about your life in the British Army. Your transition into military spatial analytics and engineering, and your current role at Google, along with the importance of proactively connecting with others along the way. If people want to learn more about you or Antebellum Angels or the work that you’re doing for Google, is there any place that people can go to learn more about you or to even connect with you?</p> <p>[00:32:28] <strong>Luke: </strong>Yeah, I’m more than happy to connect on <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/parker-luke/">LinkedIn</a>. I think that’s the best way to get hold of me.</p> </div> <h4>🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits</h4> <ul> <li>Podington Bear – <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Textural">Jetsam</a></li> <li>Jakob Ahlbom – <a href="https://www.epidemicsound.com/music/tracks/f9d09d90-4be4-4ee5-b5c8-a6e857bbb13b/">Crossing the Rubicon</a></li> </ul> <p>Additional audio was generated with Riffusion – riffusion.com</p>
December 17, 2025
Uncovering Hidden Blessings with Ben Kuhl- CR109
<p>All sorts of setbacks can come up during your career. You narrowly miss landing your dream job. You get put on a project you don’t love. You have a horrible manager. You go through a round of budget cuts. You have a family emergency come up. You have a sudden health issue. Or you realise you’ve taken the wrong job.</p> <p>We all experience disappointments, stressors, or unexpected twists and turns in our career that test our resilience, patience, and fortitude. Career setbacks can’t be avoided. No matter how well you plan things out, stuff comes up, and your ability to navigate and manage those setbacks will make the difference between you getting stuck in a rut or bouncing back to find a better way forward.</p> <p>In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Ben Kuhl<strong>, a sports and events hospitality management professional turned woodworking, shelf-making craftsman</strong> shares his thoughts on his shift from white-collar to blue-collar work, and I also share some thoughts on the hidden blessings behind career setbacks.</p> <h4>💡 Key Career Insights</h4> <ol> <li>We all experience setbacks in our careers, and your ability to accept, embrace, and manage them can make the difference between getting stuck in a rut and opening a new, more promising chapter in your career.</li> <li>While career disappointments are inevitable, sometimes, they’re blessings in disguise that enable you to recalibrate and relaunch yourself down a more fulfilling professional path.</li> <li>The past roles you’ve had, even those that felt like a poor fit, can play a critical role in your career evolution. You never know how your past experiences will show up again and assist you in your future career.</li> </ol> <hr /> <h4 id="mentalfuel">💪🏼Listener Challenge</h4> <p><img decoding="async" class="wp-image-9332 size-full alignleft" src="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel.png" alt="" width="150 height=" srcset="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel.png 2180w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-150x150.png 150w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-300x300.png 300w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-768x768.png 768w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-1024x1024.png 1024w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-157x157.png 157w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-400x400.png 400w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-510x510.png 510w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MentalFuel-1080x1080.png 1080w" sizes="(max-width: 2180px) 100vw, 2180px" />During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of recognising and embracing career setbacks as an opportunity to shift your career in a new direction.</p> <p style="font-weight: 400;">Consider a situation in your own career you’ve found stressful, unsettling, or disappointing. Then, think about what this experience may be telling you about what’s truly important to you at this moment in your life and career.</p> <p style="font-weight: 400;"><strong>What’s one step you could take in the new year to honor that priority and move yourself in a more promising direction?</strong></p> <hr /> <h4>📖 Episode Chapters</h4> <p>00:00:00 Overview<br /> 00:01:07 Introduction: Career Setbacks<br /> 00:03:12 Ben Kuhl’s Career Journey<br /> 00:37:08 Mental Fuel®: Blessings in Disguise<br /> 00:45:03 Listener Challenge: Identify Career Setback’s Upside<br /> 00:45:32 Wrap Up</p> <hr /> <h4>👤 About Ben Kuhl</h4> <p><a href="https://shelfexpression.net"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" class="alignnone size-full wp-image-30380" src="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Ben-Kuhl-Shelf-Expression.jpeg" alt="" width="4284" height="5712" srcset="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Ben-Kuhl-Shelf-Expression.jpeg 4284w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Ben-Kuhl-Shelf-Expression-1280x1707.jpeg 1280w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Ben-Kuhl-Shelf-Expression-980x1307.jpeg 980w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Ben-Kuhl-Shelf-Expression-480x640.jpeg 480w" sizes="(min-width: 0px) and (max-width: 480px) 480px, (min-width: 481px) and (max-width: 980px) 980px, (min-width: 981px) and (max-width: 1280px) 1280px, (min-width: 1281px) 4284px, 100vw" /></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-kuhl/">Ben Kuhl</a> initially built his career in sport management and hospitality, gaining experience in operations, events, and client service. After getting laid off from his most recent role in product management, he launched <a href="https://shelfexpression.net">Shelf Expression</a>, a Charlotte woodworking brand specializing in custom, high-end floating shelves and mantels.</p> <p>His background gives him a unique edge in blending business strategy with hands-on craftsmanship. Today, his shelves ship nationwide while maintaining a focus on quality and design. Learn more about Ben’s work on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/ShelfExpression/">Facebook</a>, <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-kuhl/">LinkedIn</a>, and <a href="https://instagram.com/shelfexpressionnc" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Instagram</a>, and be sure to check out Ben’s <a href="https://www.etsy.com/shop/ShelfExpression">Etsy store</a>.</p> <h4>👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!</h4> <ul> <li><strong>Review</strong>: I’d also love for you to <a href="https://josephliu.co/apple-podcasts-review" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">leave a positive review and rating</a> for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers.</li> <li><strong>Follow</strong>: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on <a href="https://josephliu.co/applepodcasts" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podcasts</a>, <a href="https://josephliu.co/spotify" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Spotify</a>, <a href="https://josephliu.co/amazon" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Amazon Music</a>, or <a href="https://josephliu.co/android" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Android</a> so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full <a href="https://josephliu.co/career-relaunch-subscribe" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">instructions</a>.</li> <li><strong>Stay in touch</strong>: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on <a href="https://facebook.com/CareerRelaunch" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Facebook</a> and <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/careerrelaunch" target="_blank" rel="noopener">LinkedIn</a>. You can also follow host Joseph on <a href="https://linkedin.com/in/josephpliu" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">LinkedIn</a>, <a href="https://www.instagram.com/careerrelaunch/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Instagram, </a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/@JosephPLiu" target="_blank" rel="noopener">YouTube</a>, <a href="https://facebook.com/JosephLiuCo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Facebook</a>, <a href="https://www.threads.com/@josephpliu" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Threads</a>, and <a href="https://bsky.app/profile/josephpliu.bsky.social" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Bluesky</a>.</li> </ul> <h4>💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?</h4> <p>If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!<br /> <a class="button orange" href="https://josephliu.co/voicemail" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"><span class="dashicons dashicons-microphone"> </span>Leave Joseph a Voicemail</a><br /> You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!</p> <h4>🙏🏻 Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch</h4> <p><a href="https://vistasocial.com?fpr=relaunch"><img decoding="async" class="alignright size-full wp-image-27136" src="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Vista-Social-Logo.png" alt="Vista Social logo" width="148" height="148" srcset="https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Vista-Social-Logo.png 148w, https://josephliu.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Vista-Social-Logo-100x100.png 100w" sizes="(max-width: 148px) 100vw, 148px" /></a><a href="https://vistasocial.com?fpr=relaunch" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Vista Social</a> is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles.</p> <div class="episode_transcript"> <h4 id="transcript">📄 Episode Transcript</h4> <p>[00:03:22] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Okay, well let’s just start off by getting a lay of the land. What’s happening in your current life right now? Like what’s been keeping you busy both personally and professionally?</p> <p>[00:03:33] <strong>Ben: </strong>I own my own business. Started a woodworking business back in the beginning of 2020, right before Covid. And ever since then, things have just absolutely exploded with work. So my woodworking business, I primarily focus on floating shelves and mantles. And yeah, things in 2020 just exploded and it’s just snowballed from there. So my life right now is woodworking out of my little two car garage and my family. So my wife, I have two kids, a nine year old and seven year old. So trying to figure out the balance between working from home, you know, on nights and weekends and also trying to be there for my kids is primarily what takes up most of my life at the moment. So maybe in a half hour for scrolling on Instagram before bed. But mainly those things.</p> <p>[00:04:17] <strong>Joseph: </strong>It’s interesting when you’re running your own business. It’s kind of a balance between running your business, making sure you’re still spending time with your kids, making sure you have time to actually rest here and there, and also just have some downtime to just mentally check out a little bit, because I know it can be all consuming to run your own business. Can I hear a little bit more about the types of woodworking that you do at Shelf Expression, which is the name of your business?</p> <p>[00:04:43] <strong>Ben: </strong>I started the business back, like I said, end of 2019, beginning of 2020, just making generic floating shelves to help pay for childcare, any additional unforeseen bills that came up and posted those on Etsy and they really took off. Then March of 2020 lockdown happened. Everybody was at home. They were redecorating their homes. They were trying to figure out how to bring a little bit more life into their office or their home offices. When everybody was at home in lockdown and things exploded. So right now I focus 95% on making floating shelves. It’s almost don’t really like to say that I’m a woodworker, because it’s one of the most, I wouldn’t say boring aspects of woodworking, but it’s shelf making. So I love being able to get creative and try to figure out different ways that I can keep my mind fresh on making the shelves as I go along. But yeah, 95% of my woodworking is making high end floating shelves and then also fireplace mantels, so hopefully continue to grow.</p> <p>[00:05:45] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Well, I do want to come back to your time now as a shelf. I’m just going to call it a shelf craftsman.</p> <p>[00:05:51] <strong>Ben: </strong>There you go.</p> <p>[00:05:52] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Perfect. Yeah, I actually have some questions about shelves for you, which we can come back to later. But exactly. I do want to go back to your time before working in this space. And you used to work as an event manager and eventually as a director of product management for Sports Hospitality Company. But before we get to that, I’d love to hear a little bit more about you and just where you grew up. And I guess specifically, what do you remember being interested in during your childhood days?</p> <p>[00:06:23] <strong>Ben: </strong>So I grew up in north central Ohio, right on Lake Erie, about 45 minutes west of Cleveland on a farm. So my childhood was always helping my dad out on the farm. When I was younger, as I got a little bit older it was more sports. So being involved in basketball and football and baseball, as I did through middle school and high school in the summers, waking up at five in the morning and picking sweet corn and being covered in pollen and always having that little bit of a blue collar mentality behind, you know, seeing my dad come home at 8:00 at night and being out for 14 to 16 hours drove home with me. The how important work ethic is to being successful and being a, you know, a son of a farmer really taught me that. You know, unfortunately, a lot of times, no matter how hard you work, you often aren’t as successful as you could be, especially in farming, because there are so many variables that play into being successful, like weather and markets and soil conditions, and seeing him work his tail off and being upset that it hadn’t rained in a month. Or maybe it’s rained five inches over the last two days, and knowing that your yield was going to suffer because of that really made me start to think about, you know, maybe carrying on the family farm isn’t something that I had as much interest in as I did when I was a kid. So that’s when once I started transitioning to being more involved in sports in the city I grew up in, started thinking about more about going off to college and getting a degree and getting out of north central Ohio. You know, my parents are so prevalent through my upbringing and the instilling of work your tail off and hopefully good things will happen. At least it’ll set you up to have a positive outcome for the rest of your life if you work hard.</p> <p>[00:08:24] <strong>Joseph: </strong>As you may recall, when we first chatted, I actually grew up in Ohio, also myself. I spent about age 2 to 6 in Hamilton, Ohio. I grew up in a very not fully rural, but it certainly wasn’t in an urban area like you mentioned. Very blue collar, very kind of ordinary. I would say life, but it does instill you with a lot of good values and good work ethic. Now you would eventually go on to Ohio University and you ended up studying sports and Fitness Administration. You did mention that there was, at least I guess, a potential consideration of continuing with the family farm business. Was that a very straightforward decision for you, or was that something you had to kind of wrestle with? I’d be curious how you ended up going into that.</p> <p>[00:09:09] <strong>Ben: </strong>It wasn’t necessarily something where my parents came to me and said, you know, if you want to continue on the family farm, it’s yours. I was the only male in my family tree that it kind of was implied that it would be mine if I wanted it. I would say probably around middle school I started to lose interest in continuing, and I think I’ve always had a sense of wanting to get out and see what else is out there in the world. As I transitioned to being more involved athletically, I was helping out less and less around the farm. So it wasn’t a hey, Ben, do you have any interest this in this or not? It was more of an unsaid. Okay, we understand that farming isn’t for you. So that’s kind of how the progression went.</p> <p>[00:09:49] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Well, let’s talk now about your time working in event management? I understand you started off as an event coordinator, eventually became an event manager. Tell us a little bit about this chapter of your career and what you were focused on.</p> <p>[00:10:02] <strong>Ben: </strong>Graduating from OU or Ohio University with a sports management degree. All I wanted to do was work for a professional sports franchise. So after graduating from college, moved out to Seattle to work for the Seattle SuperSonics. It was an amazing experience being on the ground floor. We were charged with basically being telemarketers, trying to call anybody who had expressed interest within the last five years in Seattle supersonic tickets, trying to get them to upgrade to a season ticket package. That part wasn’t the most. It wasn’t the best perk of the job. So also, working game nights really gave me an idea into what it could be working in event management, being on the floor when the players are coming out. Being close to the locker room, that was what really excited me, and sales was never Really a driving factor for me to want to work in sport management. Unfortunately, to get your foot in the door in sport management, you usually have to start as a some type of sales position, whether it’s inside sales or group sales. So after being there for a few years, the Sonics moved to Oklahoma City and then worked for a car sharing company, Zipcar, which I believe. I think they’re still around.</p> <p>[00:11:13] <strong>Ben: </strong>Yeah. As a marketing coordinator in the Seattle branch, and my main task was planning events in conjunction with the marketing manager in Seattle. And that kind of really got me into the event management mindset. Really loved starting with a blank sheet of paper, six months or even a year out and whiteboarding exactly what we wanted the event to look like, what our goals were for the event, and kind of forming the event around our goals and trying to figure out how we were going to meet those goals. So Zipcar, I would say my love for event management really started there. And then from there we decided that we wanted to do something where we felt like we were giving back to the community, and we decided that we were going to quit our jobs as a professional and move to Thailand and teach English.</p> <p>[00:12:01] <strong>Joseph: </strong>What year was this, Ben?</p> <p>[00:12:02] <strong>Ben: </strong>2010 2011.</p> <p>[00:12:04] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Okay.</p> <p>[00:12:05] <strong>Ben: </strong>So we moved back to Pittsburgh, where my wife was from, to save up some money. I continued my job with Zipcar in the Pittsburgh market as an event manager, and we moved overseas and we taught English in Thailand for seven months in travel. Yeah, it was a very 180 on our career path. Our family and friends were telling us that it was career suicide, that, you know, people were going to look down on the gap in our resumes when we came back. But we would never change that in a million years. What happened before I left for Thailand? I helped out a friend working the masters with an event company that he works for, and I hit it off with the event manager prior to leaving. And on the way back. And this is in Charlotte now, on the way back from Thailand, I reached out to her and asked her if there was, you know, by chance, any roles that were available to come and continued my path in sport and event hospitality and event management. And there is a role that was available to me. And I came and we moved from Thailand back to Charlotte, and I started in event hospitality.</p> <p>[00:13:13] <strong>Joseph: </strong>I understand part of this is about selling tickets, getting people to events, but when you talk about the hospitality side of it, what exactly did that entail?</p> <p>[00:13:21] <strong>Ben: </strong>So a leagues and venues will have a certain percentage of tickets that they’ll sell a la carte to anybody who has access to them, and then they’ll set aside a certain amount of tickets where they will couple on site hospitality with those tickets, so that on site hospitality would be a tent or a VIP room, that the people who purchased these hospitality tickets will have access to. And we’ll go ahead and we’ll couple other exclusive offerings like player meet and greets. High end food and beverage. Backstage passes, behind the scenes tours with those hospitality packages. And those will be sold obviously as a premium above what the ticket prices were sold at and the venue or the organizing body that we were partnering with, we would get a percentage of those sales. So it was just a way for them to another revenue driver for that business.</p> <p>[00:14:12] <strong>Joseph: </strong>And how are you finding that experience so far? Like what was running through your head at this point in your career, having come back from Thailand, now you’re working in event management and hospitality management. Did you enjoy it? Were you finding it rewarding? Like what was your level of satisfaction?</p> <p>[00:14:29] <strong>Ben: </strong>This was a little bit of a foreshadowing to what I do now, but the work leading up to the events was always tough. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. Long hours being away from home. Very stressful because you have people, understandably so. You have people that are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on these packages. And if something doesn’t go right with that, you are the person that hears about it. You are the person who has to try to figure out how to put out the fire. So there was a lot of stress involved with it. But once you got to the event and everything was running smoothly, and you looked around and you saw all these people with the biggest smiles on their faces and having an amazing time. The finished product always made the work leading up to it worth it. I see that a lot now as a parallel to what I do now. There’s a lot of work with the shelves that I do the way a lot. You know? My hands are constantly covered in splinters and wood stain. But getting the pictures and the reviews, once my customers have them installed on their on their walls and the glowing positive things that they have to say about it makes it worthwhile to just knowing that I had a part in bringing a little bit extra something into their home. So. Same with event management. Leading up to extremely stressful, very high paced environment because we were 20, 30, 40 events a year. So you’re planning for one, you’re executing another, you’re starting the planning process and another all at the same time. But when you’re there, it was an amazing feeling, very formative, I would say.</p> <p>[00:15:58] <strong>Joseph: </strong>I’d love to shift gears here a little bit, Ben, and talk about your shift away from that world into the world of, do I have this correct? Dental conferences and trade shows, which seems very different. Like how did you how did you make that pivot and what triggered you to make that pivot?</p> <p>[00:16:12] <strong>Ben: </strong>I was just ready to move on at that point. I was with the previous company for three years. I think it was the non-stop nature of the events and maybe a little bit of the high stakes nature of the customer interactions burnt me out very quickly. You go into 15, 20 events, it was something that I needed to change the pace from. I had lots of great memories those first three years. I was able to go to some amazing, amazing sport events like the Super Bowl and the Masters and the Kentucky Derby that I would never be able to go to otherwise, and It was very thankful for those first three years. I just needed something else. And you know what better place to pivot from sports than into dentistry? A lot of parallels between the two. Right. So exactly. I wanted to take my event management experience and then parlay that and continue down the event management path. And there’s just an opportunity available with a dental products manufacturer. And I saw it and applied for the job and I got it. And so when we started, they had us a celebration of the 30th year of this dental product, this machine that they produced. And I mean, anybody who’s in dentistry knows what the product is, knows the company name. They’re the forefront of dental manufacturing in the world. And I had the opportunity to come in and work with the events and marketing team to help plan the 30th anniversary of this product.</p> <p>[00:17:41] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Sounds like this is going well. A lot of transferable skills into this very different industry. I know that you would be there for a couple of years before you then returned back to your old former company, and you would go back as the director of product management. And I would be really interested to hear what prompted you to return to that world of sports, having stepped out of it. You mentioned before that you felt like it was time to do something different. This is an example of what we call sometimes a boomerang employee, where you leave a company or a sector and then you, you voluntarily choose to go back to it.</p> <p>[00:18:14] <strong>Ben: </strong>So I received a call from the president at that point in time, asking if I’d be interested in exploring any type of option of coming back. And we talked about it for a little while. My wife and I, we had my daughter at this point in time. We understood that travel would pick back up again going back to this company and the stress levels probably were going to increase as well. But I went back and I was now the director of product management, and my main roles were managing the ticket inventory across all the different events that we sold into.</p> <p>[00:18:47] <strong>Joseph: </strong>What do you remember about returning back to the company that you’d originally chosen to leave behind? I’m just thinking about, like the emotions of that and the psychology of going back to something you left behind. What was running through your head at the time? Do you remember?</p> <p>[00:19:03] <strong>Ben: </strong>There was a lot of familiar faces that were still there, which was great, but there were also a lot of people that were new. It was odd at first, but once we got right into it, it was like never leaving. So it turned out to be a great experience.</p> <p>[00:19:17] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Just to do a bit of a timeline check here. So you go back to this company in 2017 and while you’re working full time, you start to go through a bit of a side hustle transition. Do I have that correct? Can you take me through the evolution of your time there between, I guess, 2017 and 2020, what was happening on this side during this time? And I mentioned 2020. And so the pandemic is part of this.</p> <p>[00:19:42] <strong>Ben: </strong>So 2018, two years into being back and I wanted to make a few floating shelves for our TV wall, I wanted to get a bigger TV, but my wife wanted to put shelves there instead. So she won and I looked up a DIY tutorial on how to make floating shelves. Found one on YouTube just using standard dimensional lumber from Home Depot and standard household tools at this point in time. In 2018, beginning of 2019, my son was going into daycare, so my daughter was in daycare. At this point in time, son is going into daycare and it was expensive to say the least. We were really trying to figure out ways to make some money on the side. My wife is a photographer in addition to her full time job, she would go out and she would have shoots on the weekends to bring in some side cash, and I wanted to do the same. So I thought that if I posted these shelves that I made on Etsy, I could figure out if there was a way to, you know, make an extra $1,000 a month on selling these shelves. How could I do it if I could sell an extra, you know, 10 to 20 shelves a month? Just working on my little two car garage. It would drastically make a huge difference in, you know, our quality of life. We’d be able to afford daycare a little bit better. And I posted a listing on Etsy. I posted a listing on Facebook Marketplace and got my first sale. It was actually on Facebook Marketplace where I got my first sale in middle of 2019.</p> <p>[00:21:10] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Now, hang on just a second here, because you mentioned you decided to put up your own shelves. Now, if I needed to put up shelves, I would not have any idea where to start with that. And even if I looked it up on YouTube, I still probably wouldn’t be very good at it. Did you ever think about just buying shelves and sticking them up? Or like, what prompted you to decide that you wanted to do this by yourself and that you knew that you could do this?</p> <p>[00:21:30] <strong>Ben: </strong>I mean, I’ve always had an interest in woodworking. I had shop class all four years in high school. There were a few things around the house that I had made with, you know, a very rudimentary circular saw. My father in law gave me a few random drills and made a few things, and it just kind of sparked something in me that, like I mentioned with events, the finished product, looking back and saying, I can’t believe I made that is a driving factor in wanting to do this.</p> <p>[00:21:55] <strong>Joseph: </strong>While you get your first sale on Facebook Marketplace. And what were you thinking at this moment? Were you thinking, oh great, like, that’s kind of cool. I might make a couple more of these just for the fun of it. Or were you starting to think, you know what? Like maybe this is something that could turn into more than just a side business?</p> <p>[00:22:11] <strong>Ben: </strong>Not at that point, no. I think my Etsy listing went live in mid December, January and February. It was increasing a little bit and maybe at this point 15 to 20 shelves a month. And I was happy I was reaching my goal of making that extra $1,000 a month, wasn’t spending too much time in the garage, maybe a few hours in the evenings and a few hours on the weekends, and was being successful with that, and then also juggling all the responsibilities from my full time position as well.</p> <p>[00:22:41] <strong>Joseph: </strong>This is early 2020 and then the pandemic hits. And what happens to your full time work and what happens with the side business of making shelves?</p> <p>[00:22:51] <strong>Ben: </strong>We had just completed the last event prior to lockdown, which was the NBA all Star game, so it would have been mid-February. Covid was starting to really ramp up in China. I believe the hospitality passes came printed from China. So we went through and we were disinfecting every single hospitality pass because at this point in time, no one knew how severe it was. We just saw all these news stories about what’s going on in China, and we’re worried about it coming to the US. The All-Star game passed and then we had the first case in the US. Obviously, all these sports events that I was managing the ticket assets for are being canceled, or they’re being played without any fans in attendance. At the same time, everybody was at home. Everybody was trying to figure out how they were going to improve their homes, beautify their offices, and sales just absolutely exploded your sales. Yeah, going from 15 to 20 shelves at a time to a month to a hundred at a month.</p> <p>[00:23:57] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Wow. Okay.</p> <p>[00:23:58] <strong>Ben: </strong>It was very overwhelming. But I just remember being outside one day, and this was probably late March with our neighbors. And all of us are in our little circles. We drew in the cul de sac where, okay, you say in your circle, we’ll stay in ours. We can all be sociable and we can all have our community still, but we just won’t get close to each other. I just remember hearing that. Cha ching, cha ching, cha ching.</p> <p>[00:24:17] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Is this on Etsy?</p> <p>[00:24:18] <strong>Ben: </strong>Yeah, this was Etsy. Yeah.</p> <p>[00:24:20] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Okay. All right.</p> <p>[00:24:21] <strong>Ben: </strong>And it was an amazing feeling. But at the same time, it was how am I going to manage my 9 to 5 and do this. And most of my 9 to 5 was spent in the garage making these shelves, trying to figure out how I was going to fill all these orders. And March and April were spent mostly in the garage. You know, I’d work and hop on conference calls. And also keep in mind that we had two little kids at home at the same time as well, because daycare was closed down.</p> <p>[00:24:48] <strong>Joseph: </strong>So kids were closed, right?</p> <p>[00:24:49] <strong>Ben: </strong>We had a two year old and a four year old at home, managing that in my 9 to 5 and taking care of the kids, so it was pretty overwhelming.</p> <p>[00:25:04] <strong>Joseph: </strong>And what were you thinking at this moment, Ben? Were you thinking, I can keep going for a while like this or that? Something needs to give. How are you thinking about just your capacity?</p> <p>[00:25:17] <strong>Ben: </strong>I realized I couldn’t do both. I couldn’t, you know, work 9 to 5 in the office and then come home and work from 6 to 11. This is something that I think is viable. I think it’s something that if it continues at the pace that it’s going, I can make a full time gig out of this. I could leave this highly stressful work environment where you’re responsible for millions of dollars of ticket assets and become my own boss. In June, I was teetering on the edge. There was someone that I worked with, and we would go back and forth and she would tell me that, you know, now is probably the time to pull the trigger if you’re going to pull the trigger, all these events are being canceled. You’ll be able to preserve all these relationships that you have. And I was still really hesitant because, you know, I was scared.</p> <p>[00:26:08] <strong>Joseph: </strong>To quit your job.</p> <p>[00:26:09] <strong>Ben: </strong>Well, not necessarily. So in July, I was actually laid off. So, okay, I made this analogy before where I was at the door of the airplane trying to decide whether to jump or not, and I got kicked out.</p> <p>[00:26:22] <strong>Joseph: </strong>But you were on the verge of voluntarily resigning.</p> <p>[00:26:26] <strong>Ben: </strong>Potentially I was.</p> <p>[00:26:27] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Okay, I see. Then you get laid off in July of 2020 and the decision is made for you.</p> <p>[00:26:35] <strong>Ben: </strong>It was a blessing in disguise. I mean, obviously, it’s never an easy thing. Being laid off, right. There’s a little bit of an ego aspect to it, you know? But at the same time, it was such a blessing to have that done for me.</p> <p>[00:26:50] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Can you remember what was running through your head at that moment, when you found out that this decision had in some ways, been made for you?</p> <p>[00:27:00] <strong>Ben: </strong>I was angry, I didn’t understand why. If it was based on the last three months of me not performing at the level I needed to be, then I wish I would have had that someone would have that conversation with me and I probably would have changed things. But the previous 14 months, I felt like I knocked it out of the park. I think it was overwhelming at the time and trying to figure out how we were going to make this work. But once I realized that it was such a blessing in disguise that that it happened and someone made that decision for me, I started to come to grips with the fortunate situation I found myself in, because not many people get laid off and have a solid backup plan like I had already in place.</p> <p>[00:27:44] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Can you tell me a little bit about how things have been going for you since then with shelf expression?</p> <p>[00:27:50] <strong>Ben: </strong>I kept on seeing ads on Facebook for a shelf bracket that just launched, and I think they launched in 2019, and they came on the market and I emailed them and I said, hey, I saw you guys on YouTube. I noticed that you don’t have any type of authorized providers. I was wondering if we could partner in some way. And this is love to shout them out. This is hover. Solutions brackets. They make the most incredible floating shelf brackets on the market. I’m not being biased, but maybe a little bit. So I partnered with them and I started creating hardwood floating shelves that could be coupled with this floating shelf bracket. And instead of pine, I’m now making shelves out of walnut and white oak and cherry, and all of a sudden my margins are a lot better. It was a way for me to take my company that I’d make 20 shelves and make 500 or $1000 a month to a company that I could make 100 shelves and make $15,000 a month. It’s blown up since then. So working with interior designers, contractors and becoming the solution for them for their floating shelf needs is has been pretty remarkable. And everything has been self-taught on my end too, as far as my business and the non shelf floating aspect of running the business.</p> <p>[00:29:12] <strong>Joseph: </strong>The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up, is that work that you’re doing right now, both as someone who is making the shelves, but also as someone who’s running your own business. And I would be, first of all, interested in just hearing about what’s been the most surprising thing about shifting from I’m just going to broadly label it a white collar job to a more doing stuff with your hands blue collar job. And I’m using those labels because I think they make sense to people. But how have you found that shift? I know you’re a business owner now at the same time, but just the shift from going to white collar office work to more blue collar, hands on work.</p> <p>[00:29:49] <strong>Ben: </strong>Yeah, it’s been for me so, so rewarding building that. And there’s a huge chunk of my responsibility is I still have that white collar responsibility. Right. It’s website design.</p> <p>[00:30:02] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Client management.</p> <p>[00:30:03] <strong>Ben: </strong>Customer relationship management, my ad social media. So I haven’t completely given that away. But being proud of a finished product and and being proud of the process has been probably the greatest reward for making the transition from a quote unquote, white collar to blue collar job.</p> <p>[00:30:21] <strong>Joseph: </strong>What have you learned about yourself making the transition from employee to business owner?</p> <p>[00:30:26] <strong>Ben: </strong>I thought I would get the most enjoyment out of being in the shop and making the shelves and seeing the finished product, which I do, but I also get a huge, huge kick out of trying to figure out how to grow my business and how to scale, and how to make it become more of a a nationwide brand that everybody is familiar with. And coming up with partnerships and different marketing angles is something that I really enjoy.</p> <p>[00:30:49] <strong>Joseph: </strong>If one of the components wasn’t there, it would kind of make the whole experience perhaps less complete or less rewarding. And I hear you that you’re saying like the business ownership is important, but you also like the hands on creation part of it. It really is both of those two things combined that is creating your professional life right now, which is really interesting. And you’re also borrowing and leveraging a lot of your past experiences in directly relevant ways right now. So it’s kind of interesting your trajectory here. Final question before we wrap up what you’re doing now, what is something that you wished you had known that you now know about making a radical career change.</p> <p>[00:31:29] <strong>Ben: </strong>Instead of turning to agencies to find the perfect solution for my ads and for my website design. I wish I would have taken the time to really learn the intricacies behind each and did it myself. Took on more of a DIY approach. I spent a lot of money and did not see the returns that I was hoping for. So now whenever I go down any of these different paths, whether it’s website design or marketing, a lot of times it’s all self-taught and that’s been the process is before you spend money on something, understand it, because a lot of times these agencies will come in and they’ll start spouting out these acronyms and these different KPIs, and if you don’t understand what they’re talking about, then you’re just as lost as anybody. And you need to at least know the ins and outs before you hand something like that off to somebody else.</p> <p>[00:32:18] <strong>Joseph: </strong>That’s really interesting, Ben. I’ve also found that to be the case myself as I’ve gone through, like I’ve been running my own business now for over a decade, and I did the same thing. Like I started off outsourcing quite a bit, including PR that was kind of one of the things where I outsourced to a PR agency, and these days I do most of that myself just because I feel like I’m in more control. And that’s part of the benefit and the upside of running your own business. I’d love to wrap up with what you are now focused on right now, which is both running your business and also making shelves. And I can’t let you go without asking you about shelves, because as someone who specializes in making shelves, what are a couple things that someone should look for in a high quality shelf, whether it’s a floating shelf or a freestanding shelf.</p> <p>[00:33:03] <strong>Ben: </strong>Yeah, aside from making sure it’s made by shelf expression, of course. No, I would say if you’re looking for something that you want to last a long time, make sure it’s made out of solid hardwood. A lot of these shelves that you can purchase through Amazon or Wayfair are probably made out of MDF or particle board, and you know it when you see it. Just like anything that you find for cheap, making sure that you have a quality bracket, I think is another thing. As far as if you’re looking for a floating shelf, Something that is handmade by family business as well. I feel like that’s something that plays a part in it, because then you know that the people who are making it are pouring every ounce of sweat into making it perfect and making sure that it’s the quality that you that you deserve. So that’s the big thing is, you know, a lot of times when you see these manufacturers that are a little bit more mass produced, reviews are a great way to dig into what the quality is, is like. And that’s something that I really take pride in, is making sure that everything that I put out, I would want hanging on my grandma’s wall. And I think finding someone who has that level of care and detail is really important.</p> <p>[00:34:11] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Very last question for you. Before we tell people where to find you, can you tell me a little bit more about what’s next for shelf expression? Where do you see this going, and how would you like your life and work to look in the months and years ahead, both personally and professionally?</p> <p>[00:34:26] <strong>Ben: </strong>My three year plan is to eventually scale out where I can get into a bigger space. My wife really wants to park her car in the garage at some point in the next three years. And hiring people, having someone come in and like I said, I love making the shelves, but I love running the business more. So if I could bring people in who have the same level or close to the same level of attention to detail as I have, that would allow me to try to figure out how I can scale this. I recently launched a designer program. I’ve been reaching out to interior designers and home contractors across the country, inviting them to join. So aside from the retail customers really trying to focus on how to build my B2B customer base as well, having those repeat customers that I can rely on as a solid base is a goal of mine over the next year. Yeah, eventually getting out of the garage and having someone lend a hand so I can focus on the bigger picture is the ultimate goal of mine.</p> <p>[00:35:18] <strong>Joseph: </strong>And if people want to learn more about you, or if they are looking for a good set of floating shelves, where can they go?</p> <p>[00:35:25] <strong>Ben: </strong>So my website is self-expression net. Instagram handle is self-expression NC. Etsy store name is self-expression. Take a look and would be happy to answer any questions anybody has.</p> <p>[00:35:37] <strong>Joseph: </strong>Well, thank you so much, Ben for telling us more about your life. As a former event manager and Director of Product management, your shift into woodworking, making shelves, and also your transition from employee to business owner. So best of luck with all of your work and moving into a bigger space as shelf expression continues to grow.</p> <p>[00:35:54] <strong>Ben: </strong>Thank you very much, Joseph. I appreciate the time.</p> <h4>🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits</h4> <ul> <li>Morning Garden – <a href="https://pixabay.com/music/acoustic-group-morning-garden-acoustic-chill-15013/">Acoustic Chill</a></li> <li>Ever So Blue – <a href="https://www.epidemicsound.com/music/tracks/f6dbeacc-6a10-4e80-9b3d-ffd1461496a5/">Calme</a></li> <li>Podington Bear – <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Textural">Lucky Stars</a></li> <li>Rannar Silnard – <a href="https://www.epidemicsound.com/music/tracks/8a87281c-cd60-4beb-a147-addfc2ed9ca7/">Siljan</a></li> <li>Podington Bear – <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Fathomless_-_Ambient">Three Colors</a></li> <li>Podington Bear – <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Textural">Waves</a></li> <li>Podington Bear – <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Fathomless_-_Ambient">Satellite Bloom</a></li> </ul> </div>
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Deep-dive analytics for Career Relaunch®
Frequently asked questions
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- What is Career Relaunch®?
- How often does this podcast release new episodes?
This podcast updates bi-weekly.
- Where can I listen to this podcast?
This podcast is available on 10 platforms including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. You can also use the RSS feed directly.
- Does this podcast accept guests?
Yes, this podcast regularly features guests.
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