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Facilitation Stories

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by IAF England Wales

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Facilitation: the art of enabling a group of people to achieve a common goal. IAF England Wales brings you a show by facilitators, for facilitators and anyone interested in using facilitation for change. We'll share guest stories, experiences and methods. Plus, we'll bring you up to date on what's happening at our Meetups.

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June 7, 2026

FS82 - Facilitating in communities with Jeffrey Marr

In today's episode, Umah is joined by Jeff Marr, founder of The Practical Philosophy Club, to unpack the unique art of community facilitation and what it takes to design unstructured, safe spaces for deep, depolarising conversation. Moving away from top-down corporate agendas, Jeff explores how his grassroots, peer-led facilitation model grew from a casual living room meetup in Mexico into a global network hosting over 800 people a week across 28 countries. They talk about: <ul> <li data-path-to-node="3">The power of the introduction and why the first few minutes are the facilitator's most critical tool for setting guidelines on airtime, monologue-busting, and vulnerability </li> <li data-path-to-node="3">The "jam session" approach to facilitation, shifting the practitioner's role from a rigid authority figure to a light touch that trusts adults to self-moderate and navigate their own dialogue </li> <li data-path-to-node="3">Holding space for ideological friction and practical techniques to de-escalate heated moments, calm group triggers, and help people sit with constructive discomfort</li> <li data-path-to-node="3">The spectrum of group dynamics, from managing large groups by scaling into small, co-facilitated tables, to knowing when to let a little healthy chaos ride.</li> </ul> Quote highlights "I think that's one of our main issues in society is that we have these echo chambers that no one's breaking out of, and our algorithms are pushing us to go further into it." "...you want to have a strong frame of reality and a sense of confidence in yourself, so that you can hear." "We've had several people who, we could call them say problematic, right? Like a little bit quick to anger easily triggered these type of things. And I have seen them blossom... they're able to hear all these opinions without getting triggered anymore so it's been beautiful to see that." Links Today's guest: Jeffery Marr — Practical Philosophy Club Founder <a href= "https://www.practicalphilosophy.club">https://www.practicalphilosophy.club</a> & <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/practicalphilosophyy/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/practicalphilosophyy/</a> To join a Practical Philosophy Meetup in a country near you, head to: <a href= "https://www.practicalphilosophy.club/practical-philosophy-locations/"> https://www.practicalphilosophy.club/practical-philosophy-locations/</a> Today's host: Umah Ganeshalingam — Change and Transformation Advisor and Facilitator <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliviabellas/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/umah</a> To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter: 🎧 <a href= "https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/">https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/</a> 📧 <a href= "mailto:podcast@iaf-ew.co.uk">podcast@iaf-ew.co.uk</a> 🌐https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales Transcript: Umah: Hello, and welcome to Facilitation Stories. This podcast is brought to you by the England and Wales Chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Umah, and today we're going to hear about "Facilitating in Communities". In August last year, I went to Toronto and joined a meetup where I had the most wonderful time. Today's guest is the architect of that experience, Jeff Marr. He is the founder of the Practical Philosophy Club, a charity that has sparked deep discussions in communities in over 28 countries. Jeff, welcome. Welcome to the show. Jeff: Thank you, Umah Umah: So first off, I wanted you to tell our listeners a little bit about Practical Philosophy Club, what it means to you, and why you started it. Jeff: Practical Philosophy is mostly the opportunity for us to have deep discussion. We started post-COVID-ish, so 2021, at the very end of it, going into 2022, and people were hungry for conversation. And so that was more or less how it got started. And then over the last little while, it just grew exponentially more or less, and it took us about two years to set the foundations, figure out what it was that we even believed in. What were we trying to even do here? I'm a big fan of philosophy, and I wanted to have a space where people could talk. I think that what we need is more transparency and honesty and less polarisation in the world, and so that's through a roundabout fun way, enjoyable way. We're putting people into a room who have all these different opinions, all these different thoughts, and they're able to communicate with one another. And on social media and in traditional media, they would more or less consider themselves enemies. But then you get people who have very different political beliefs, and they realise they have a lot more in common. We aren't enemies to one another. I really like to see people think things through, and it's an opportunity to go deep into a conversation, both very logically, but also in the esoteric sense. I'm also a big fan of self-development, too. A lot of people, they're not necessarily open to self-development because it has a bad rap. But they come to Practical Philosophy 'cause, like, yeah, I do the practical aspect of it, and it does help people with whatever they're going through, even though they're learning different ways of thinking about situations in their life without directly confronting. And through that exploration of that topic, maybe it'll unlock different insights. Umah: You've got Practical Philosophy Club in all those different countries, and a lot of the facilitation is happening in communities where there's different cultures, different socioeconomic backgrounds, and every week everyone's talking about the same topic, and you've set that up for a reason, haven't you? Jeff: It was an accident. Umah: It was an accident! Jeff: Yeah! Umah: Tell me then, how was it an accident? Jeff: I just tried to have a meetup in my living room in. I was living in Mexico, so I just hosted a meetup, and I didn't really know how it was gonna go. The first one was just me reading quotes off my laptop and so then through iteration, it became what it became. I wasn't familiar with any facilitation, so we built it from the ground up. And then as we've gone, we've found different organisations that are doing good work and trying to see if there's anything that we can implement through our processes. The reason it happened by accident is just 'cause I was in Mexico, but I'm from Canada. Umah: Yeah. Jeff: And then we opened one in Canada. We needed to learn how to figure out how to run these and how to make them survive and how to make them thrive. And then we also moved to Valencia in Spain, and then we tried it there and it worked. And so after that, it took on a life of its own. So it wasn't really the intention. It was just meaningful. Philosophy's nerdy, and I was mostly confused for a long time. Why are people even showing up? Why are people coming to this? When we opened our first one in Vancouver in the west end of Canada, this guy came up to me and he was like, "This is very brave to call it philosophy. If you would call it deep conversations, maybe more people would come. People don't like philosophy." I was like, "Yeah, that's fair, but I personally love philosophy as a basis of everything that we are. And so if we can, I guess, reinvent the idea of what that means because I don't like the academia version of philosophy necessarily. I don't hate it, but like it's not accessible to a lot of people. How do we introduce this idea that philosophy is a way of critical thinking and figuring things out for yourself and, say they're stressed about work. This is just my opinion, but we can't rely on authority figures because things are changing so much. And so how can we indirectly help people understand that whatever your conclusions are gonna be, they're gonna have to be your conclusions because we can't rely on the government to tell us, "Oh, this is the direction to go. Go to school, go to university, get a job." It's, that's not necessarily an option, so how can we help build that together, but then as well have this community of very unique type of person who comes every week, and you get to meet some very cool people there through it. Umah: And so to build that community and have people meet others and connect in a meaningful way, you have facilitators who obviously don't lead the conversation, but, um, you have them there so that they can set the guidelines, set the scene, and ensure that good, deep discussions take place in all these different cultures around the world. And so the facilitators, they mostly do that through the introduction, right? It's quite important to you, so could you tell me why? Jeff: Yeah. The introduction the most important part, and that was again, something I didn't realise until my friend Susanna in Playa del Carmen in Mexico, she was the one who showed me that introduction sets the tone for when we split into different groups for how people are supposed to behave within this space, and our guidelines that we have is mostly like no side talk, right? Give people realm where they can speak. We want you to share your story. We want you to be as vulnerable as you're comfortable to be, but also just be aware of how much it is that you're talking. How much of your story are you sharing? Are you on a 15-minute monologue? So keeping in mind that it is a group conversation. You just share these things at the beginning because although they're guidelines, they're not hard rules, it's something that we believe helps make the conversation better. We're not here to just hear how smart and cool I am. We're here to hear new perspectives, and we want everyone to have that opportunity. We have been trying to figure out how we can do that without even having a host, and I think we will always need someone to start it up. Our Mississauga group, which is a city outside of Toronto, they've got a pretty big group, and people come consistently, but there's one main guy who gives the introduction. But if, if he can't make it, we want it to be as minimal words as we can make it to set the tone. Anyone can do this. Umah: You've got the guidelines, and you've got really good introduction on how to set the session up and that's really helpful for someone who's quite interested in doing this. Not everyone is necessarily needing to be a professional to facilitate. It's not always necessarily a qualification. Sometimes it's a skill that you can practice, and you can learn. Jeff: And I guess it's interesting or lucky That this was the decision that we decided to go with. Someone once told me that it's similar to a jam session. The point is to jam. You can't mess it up if we're all aligned on what we're doing here Umah: I like that. I wonder if it's a perspective thing in terms of what messing it up looks like. Has there been, for example, a time where a group's been particularly rowdy or it's been quite heated discussion, and whether you or the facilitators had to make a decision to step in? Or do you, facilitators as more of an observer and let the group go the direction they're going? Jeff: I like a little chaos. It's, it's tough. I do mostly focus on how is everyone else feeling with it. We don't wanna have a very rowdy group, so we do try to not get too lit around here. But yeah, every now and then, if it does get very heated, I'm like, "Hey guys, let's take a breath. Let's pause here for a second. Take a breath, and then we'll go back into it." So it's, generally speaking, it would be the main issue with facilitation. I do think we need certain people to lead the charge on it always. So say for the one that you went to in Toronto, right? We had 155 people last week, and so we can't have that many people at one table. So we split into smaller groups, and each group has its own semi-moderator, and there's different ways of doing that. So the Toronto group does moderators, and I think they do a phenomenal job, and they're irreplaceable by being open, and it helps to have someone, like everyone knows, okay, this is our moderator, this person's just gonna keep us on track. But then our Vancouver group, the way the host there, Shania, she said it, she's, "These are adults. They're self-sufficient, and they can manage the group on their own." That's what the introduction is for, and then they'll moderate themselves because when we give that agency to the group- Mm. Umah: How many have you got attending these sessions around the world? Jeff: Globally, we have about 800 a week. We're opening more all the time. We had one opened in Taipei in Taiwan, and then we also have another one in Vietnam, and then another one in Spain in Malaga. The goal that we're looking at is we want to put this in every city. Anyone who wants these conversations, which isn't everyone, but there is a certain subset of the population that's looking for these deep conversations, and we wanna be able to make that accessible to them. Umah: What are you hoping they come away with? For example, some people might go for one, some people might be a regular. Jeff: I believe that if anyone wants to do anything, it has to come from within. Mm. So having that awakening where they're like, "Oh, this is the direction to head." I don't believe that a guru makes sense. I'm a big fan of communication. Listening to perspectives, it helps. I don't wanna get too into politics, but say America, everyone's talking about Trump all the time, right? And so there's people who bring up Trump in a negative light every conversation, and it's annoying, and there's people who bring up Trump in a positive light every conversation, and it's also annoying. But if they can come together and instead of dogmatically thinking- This guy's good or this guy's bad. Is there a way that we can think about what he actually is doing or what's actually happening, what's deeper beyond what we're hearing in the news? If I were to long-term think of the goal, it would be a willingness to communicate disagreements or a willingness to listen to people with alternative perspectives to what we would consider normal or what we, what our immediate social circle talks about 'cause we don't want echo chambers. I think that's one of our main issues in society is that we have these echo chambers that no one's breaking out of, and our algorithms are pushing us to go further into it. Umah: For me, this is why what you do and facilitation is really important because we facilitate in corporate environments, but also in the community. It's easing people, the general public, hear perspectives that they might be either uncomfortable with or disagree on. It's helping people sit with discomfort in a safe environment where you're saying it's a discussion, it's not debate. Yes, there's politicians doing their thing, asking for votes. There's people also trying to convince someone to follow their rhetoric, say, but this isn't that. This is for the individual to open up their mind and think for themselves and put ideas together, hear different perspectives. I think it's already very impactful, but I feel the potential for these facilitated sessions with general public has so much of an untapped potential. It helps people go forwards without anger, a bit more calmly. Jeff: I'm a big fan of just being calm and not stressed, and so the more opinions that we hear that we may disagree with or that may trigger us, the less triggered we're gonna get, the more we encounter them. It's completely understandable if you hear something, like, completely outrageous. You're gonna get, like, that initial boost of, "I don't like this. I wanna defend it." But eventually I've seen over the course of this, I can hear these people verbally attacking me or saying I'm a horrendous person, and it doesn't bother me even if it feels like a personal attack on me. Can I listen and is there an actual point to what they're saying that I can actually implement within my life if we can take that away and listen to every piece of feedback? That's a little tough, though because a lot of people have some pretty interesting ideas that aren't useful, and so I would add a c- caveat in that You want to have a strong frame of reality and a sense of confidence in yourself so that you can hear. I do think you need a sense of confidence in who you are as a person, and so that would come through self-exploration. Then you can, okay, is there something worth hearing about here or something worth taking into consideration here? Umah: It's inevitable really that there's gonna be a difference of opinion in any group, even if it was the same kind of demographics. It's different experiences that people have had. Have you seen, for example, people blossom or change, their mindset change, opinions change? Have you seen that within the work you do yourself? Jeff: Yeah. We've had several people who we could call them, say, problematic, right? Like a little bit quick to anger, easily triggered, these type of things, and I have seen them blossom into more or less leaders of the community, and they're able to... Okay, they're able to make fun of themselves. They're more confident in themselves. They're able to, yeah, hear all these opinions without getting triggered anymore, so it's been beautiful to see that. I can see that it's happened within me too. I've heard all these different things. Now I have to actually explore these topics. If I'm gonna have a big mouth, I gotta be able to understand it or learn more so I can, if not change my perspective, understand deeper why my perspective is this way already. Umah: If this kept growing and there was no limit, what do you feel is exciting and keeping you going? Do you have a specific goal that you reach and be proud of and say, "Yep, I've got to this point"? Jeff: I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Dune series. Have you read it? Umah: Yeah. Okay. I've not read it. I've seen it, and I've played the game. Jeff: Oh, there's a game? Yeah, so I guess the Dune's about this sand world where there's a very valuable powder that pretty much allows for intergalactic space travel. Within that universe, there's people called truth sayers, and so they can hear if anyone's lying. It's a very hard thing to measure, but I think it would be a big win if we actually see politicians, like, nuance perspective, here's why we're gonna do this, and it's not, like, gaslighting. It's to look like we're gonna do this for the good of this community. Here's the drawbacks of it. So just i- if we can see more transparency with politicians or governing bodies and less shaming. Now society is filled with people who more or less know what lying looks like, know what these tools of manipulation that people in positions of power have been using. They're intuitively recognisable. Then people would have to govern for the purpose of the actual people, which is what we've claimed that we've been involved with. I believe, and giving the benefit of the doubt to people in positions of power, I do believe that for the most part they probably think that people aren't smart enough to handle the truth. Like that, that movie where it's like, "You can't handle the truth." Mm. There's someone very well known. Actually, he's not well known enough, but his name is Edward Bernays, and he's pretty much the father of modern public relations. And so he's the reason that we have fluoride in our water. He was Tasked from the smelting company, how do we dispose of this toxic chemical? And it's too expensive to get rid of, so he actually hired a bunch of dentists and health professionals to tell the public that fluoride is good to prevent tooth decay in children. So as a way to dispose of fluoride, they started putting it in the water, and he used public opinion. It's called manufacturing consent. If we can see through these things then hopefully the people who are doing them, they're like, "Okay, look, we're just gonna be straight up with you. This is why we're doing this." That'd be like a long-term thing, and I think it would be organic. I'm Umah: just looking at my bookshelf. There's a book called Bad Science by Ben Goldacre. Have you heard of it before? Jeff: No, I haven't? Umah: I think you might quite like that as a read. Jeff: It's called Bad Science? Umah: Yeah. I read it whilst I was at university, but it's very on topic to what you've said there. Jeff: And this is a bit of a conspiratorial rant, so I apologise for that. Umah: We enjoy that as a different conversation. Jeff: We wanna just go into a group and have a community within society. That's it. Just let me have a nice time. Umah: I like the deeper thought behind it. It is a space where you can ask the questions that you might not wanna ask in front of other people, or you wanna explore a topic further, you might want it broken down, or you just want to get an answer that you're not getting elsewhere. What are other topic headings that you've gone through and some maybe more outlandish or weird and wonderful ones, as well as the ones like empathy and loyalty. Jeff: So generally, when someone's starting a new group, we have a list of all of the topics that we've ever done with all of the jump-off points. And so I, I believe this is honestly Something beautiful, 'cause it's like a, it's this library of every topic and every question that goes along with the topic. It's an interesting thing 'cause it's not the thoughts of any one person, it's just, are these good enough questions to help you start thinking about things from this perspective of each individual topic. And so when someone starts a new group, we generally say that we have five to 10 topics that are just certified bangers. Everyone loves them all the time. Dating is one of them. But then there's also, like, how to live a good life. It's important that we figure what a good life means for us as individuals. Victimhood was always a good topic that we have. Love and hate, life and death, those are standard ones, and people really enjoy those conversations. More outlandish ones, we did the apocalypse a little while ago, 'cause a friend of mine went to OpenAI, and he worked with these guys for a week, and he's like, "Bro, we gotta start buying land. We're all cooked, and we need to figure out a plan for it. We need to move to Norway 'cause they have a system outside of capitalism." Canada would be good as well for it because, like, we're m- more or less a socialist country. We have to figure out what to do, and that's another benefit of we have a community now. You have a community of people who more or less are, like, open to meritocracy and actually, "Okay, what's the solution? Let's figure a solution to a problem," and not just a solution that looks good. The solution is we need paper straws. Who came up with that as a solution? Does it actually help, or did the paper straw manufacturing company say to do that? That was an outlandish one. We did this only in my home group in Hamilton, but we just talked about the Epstein files because that's a big one. Everyone else talked about ego. I remember when I was living in Manila, and side topic, we're gonna talk about the giant worm in Dune. The fourth book, the main character is a big worm, so let's do a philosophy meetup where we just talk about the worm. Wow, really? And, yeah, so we did that. But those are side sessions. We have a side group just for social events, so people do board games, they'll do book clubs, they'll do walks on the beach or whatever it is, 'cause one of our main things is community building. And so we would offer this space where people can help facilitate. Umah: You should really get the games then. There's a board game and the Dune II I used to play. It was a computer game. Jeff: I do love Dune. A lot. Umah: Just before we wrap up, we have a question from one of our previous guests who asks, what crossroads are you at right now? Jeff: With the organisation or just in life generally? Umah: However you like to answer. I'll leave it to you. Jeff: The crossroads within practical philosophy is we need each chapter to be self-sustaining. So the crossroads at the moment that we're looking at, every new group, like the one that we just started in Taipei, we start asking for donations right away. We want philosophy to be accessible, so it's never an actual mandatory, obligatory, you have to pay to show up. But it is an idea where we do need to be able to fund ourselves. And the situation in London, right, you're renting out the space, that costs money- Yeah and that shouldn't be entirely on you to pay. And so us as a community, if this is something that we want, then we need to be able to self-fund. That's like probably the big organisational change that will happen in the next couple weeks. We have this centralised aspect of it that, for the time being, needs to be centralised, and this whole thing started from just a whim, and so we've been learning as we go. And so we're a little bit less, say, professional in that sense. It's easy when it's $30 that I'm paying to rent out a space in Playa del Carmen, but then we're opening new ones everywhere, and I can't actually- so we have to be an actual organisation now, so we have to operate more appropriately like that. I guess personally it's just like with the AI thing, 'cause I run a business, my company makes videos. I've got over a decade of experience making videos, animated videos. If AI's taking that, do I just figure out AI video? And we are starting to move into AI video, but outside of that, do I wanna just leave video entirely and start new things? I'll probably still always be in like marketing/training and communications, but what would that look like? So I- I'm also thinking about just stuff like that with these massive changes that are coming. Umah: And now it's your turn. Do you have a question for one of our future guests? Jeff: What potential societal changes may affect you in the future that you need to look out for? Umah: Good. Thank you, Jeff, for joining us today. Jeff: Thank you for having me, Umah. It was lovely. Umah: We have reached the end of today's episode of Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the IAF England and Wales. If you'd like to hear more about the IAF and how to get involved, please head over to our website, <a href= "http://www.facilitationstories.libsyn.com/">www.facilitationstories.libsyn.com</a>, to make sure you never miss an episode. We are always on the lookout for new topics to discuss, so if you think there's a facilitator that we should talk to, or you would like to share what's emerging in your world of facilitation, send us an email at <a href="mailto:podcast@iaf-ew.co.uk">podcast@iaf-ew.co.uk</a>. We hope you join us for more Facilitation Stories again soon. Until then, thank you for listening.

May 15, 2026

🎙️ FS81 - Abimbola Olajide - Tactile, hands on practice

In today's episode, Olivia is joined by Abimbola Olajide, serial social entrepreneur and Chief of Play, to explore tactile, hands-on facilitation and what it means to work with the whole person in the room. With a background spanning community convening, grief support, and corporate consultancy, Abimbola shares how she found her way into facilitation and why embodied, kinesthetic approaches are at the heart of everything she does. They talk about: ● paying close attention to embodied feeling when listening to stories ● how personal experience led to founding a CIC supporting people through life transitions ● her consultancy grounded in human-centred work, congruence, and her àjọṣe ("let's do it together") practice, using tools like LEGO Serious Play & modelling wax ● how metaphor, play and physical materials open up focus, emotion and better decision-making, even in corporate spaces. Quote highlights "The power of metaphor, but also using tactile with that, just allows people to go from 'fine'to actually 'this is what this model is saying today'... it gets from zero to deep really quick" "A decision doesnn;t have to be 'I need all the data, and then I need to be stressed... I can play about this'. The term would be blue sky thinking, but I call it purple cloud thinking" Links Today's guest: Abimbola Olajide — In Every Season CIC ; Atúnkò <a href="https://atunko.co.uk/">https://atunko.co.uk/</a> & <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/abimbola-olajide-67a54b63/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/abimbola-olajide-67a54b63/</a> Today's host: Olivia Bellas — Coach, Facilitator, Learning Experience Designer <a href= "https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliviabellas/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliviabellas/</a> To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter: 🎧 https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ 📧 podcast@iaf-ew.co.uk 🌐https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales Transcript Olivia: . so welcome to facilitation stories. how do facilitators end up in the profession? What methods and techniques can we learn together and we discover it all in this community podcast, brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Olivia Bellas and today I'm talking with Abimbola Olajide. Abimbola is also known as the Chief of Play. She's a serial social entrepreneur, passionate about the power of tactile play, fostering human-centered connection and growth, and she uses hands-on engagement to rewire mindsets in professional and community spaces. Welcome. Abimbola: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for welcoming me, and I'm so glad to be here. Olivia: Yeah. I am so looking forward to chatting today, and I know we have that focus area of the kind of tactile, the hands on practices, really looking forward to diving into all of that world. but firstly, I wanna actually just touch in on something. We'll be finding out more about you, but I wanna know today, what's making you smile in your world of facilitation. Just curious about your kind of current landscape, and then we'll get into a bit more about you. Abimbola: Okay, so, today what's making me smile in the world of facilitation I guess the connection to self, and I know that sounds very stereotypical, but I'll, I'll explain as a facilitator. I was at a workshop last week in the London Stock Exchange and there was, This guy, Peter Ra, he was telling us about storytelling and how we capture stories and you know, methods to just tell stories at an executive level. And one thing that really struck me from what he said was, you know, when you listen to a story or when you watch something or just noticing how you feel, and just that feeling and that part, I'm holding my belly area is just above, um, as I speak, but just how you feel, how something makes you feel. And that kind of made me stop and actually feel like, actually, you know, sometimes we. Ignore feelings or put them to the side, or we'll we'll have, whether it's chest tightening or you know, a gut feeling. Those are all indicators of our body telling us something. And him just saying, that actually made me really curious. Like when I listen to things or when I hear things or when I experience things, what's that feeling that I feel? What is it? So I've been really kind of curious. And listening out for that feeling. So that's kind of making me smile. 'cause sometimes it's like, ooh. What's that? Olivia: yeah. What's that? Kind of, either it might be there or it might not be there. Abimbola: Like, oh, what's that? I'm feeling something. Or how come I'm not feeling anything? So that itself, both of those are learning, by the way. 'cause it's discovery. Of myself. And I think when I apply that back into the work that I do, for the most part, if I'm doing work that I'm not feeling anything about, I think that also translates to the work that you do. There will be something not as warm or not quite captivating as it could be. So yeah, just that reminder to be like, oh. What am I feeling here? So that's, what's kind of taken my attention in the last couple of weeks in the facilitation space. Olivia: It is a great reminder, especially as facilitators, 'cause we can get drawn into so many different directions. Mm-hmm. But as you said, you know, what's the body saying about that particular moment in the room or project? Mm-hmm. And actually as you were talking, 'cause I said, oh, you know what's making you smile? And just even me smiling in reaction to what you were saying just felt really great as well. So we don't pause enough, I think. Abimbola: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't pause enough. We don't pause enough. Definitely. So. Olivia: So actually was, you mentioned this particular session, The storytelling one. can we just hear a little bit more about that and what, you know, made you be at that particular moment? Abimbola: that's a very interesting story that I'm gonna share more about, but I'll, I'll give you guys like A bit of a sneak peek at it. So I, a friend of mine, so I'm a director in the board of another CIC called connecting stories. So they help women with financial literacy and developing themselves and their careers and also using stories to connect. So. the founder was like, oh, there's this amazing event. Let's go. So what it was talking about was executive presence and storytelling and how you can use storytelling to, capture a lot of things. So whether it's attention or marketing or all of that. And also the, I guess the ethical part of using it for good as well. So really going into how you could use storytelling, but also helping you to, I guess, realize how it works. 'cause there is a science behind it. And that's not a bad thing. But you also then. the ethical thing for me, I think to do is use that for good, right? So to help people actually connect with stories and, you have to connect with it as well. So yeah, that's why I was there Olivia: Well, I guess the, the things you were talking about storytelling, and obviously you touched on that kind of embodiment aspect that was making you smile as well. And I think I'm really interested in how your story has evolved in terms of the nature of tactile work that you do. Mm-hmm. Very hands-on practices. Mm-hmm. Is there a kind of defining moment for you that where some of this particular work you transitioned into? Abimbola: Um, I say there are many defining moments, so I'll tell you the story and then you can see which moments stand out for you. So I would say unofficially, I've probably been facilitating four. Maybe 15 or so years, unofficially, I didn't know it was a term, but I was always the one to facilitate spaces, to host things, to bring people together, to ask the questions, to mc, do all of those things. And then I think almost seven years ago now. I started in every season and that's the CIC that, I, run with, my team. And, it was from a season of bereavement, so grief, and I really wanted to get people's stories. So at the time in my early thirties and I was widowed and I was like, this is a. Journey to be going on. how do other people navigate this season? Surely there must be other people in the world navigating a season of grief. so I started getting introduced to different people and I would interview them. So I, the first series that I started was a podcast where people were sharing their stories of being young and widowed. And then it went on to different types of. Either bereavement or life challenges and transitions. And then six years later the what started out as a podcast and sharing stories to help and to heal has turned into a CIC where we help people and individuals transition through various life seasons. We're always going through a transition of life. For some reason or the other, and we journey with people to do that. And a lot of the time when we think journeying, sometimes that could look like talking. But for in every season, what we've actually found is that artistic practice embodied movement alternative. Kinesthetic type practices in the doing is what's helped. And that's what's helped me. That's what's helped my family. I realized a few years ago that I was more of a kinesthetic learner and I'm like, oh, so there's a. Thing for it, right? So I'm like, just let me get my hands on it. Let me touch it. Let me do it, then I'll figure it out. Right? So I didn't know that that was a thing. And then I realized that, oh, this is the way I learn and I've always been interested in art and trained in expressive arts and also Lego, a serious play and possibly a few other things. And I have a way of using creative means in order to facilitate and hold spaces. So yeah, that's how I've used that. So recently we had a movement session ahead of, mother's Day. We're having a geranium making session where we're actually exploring. the art of nurturing. So what that means. so for Mother's Day, you generally think of mothers and mothering, but not everybody is a mother, but maybe everybody has been mothered, but maybe also. Everybody has nurtured something. So it could be a person you've nurtured. It could be that you've been nurtured. It could be a business that you've nurtured. It could be a pet that you've nurtured, but there is an art to it, and it also could be yourself, like learning how to nurture yourself. So we're exploring that as we make uranium. So, I hold community spaces within every season to do that. And then on the flip side, I have 17 years worth of corporate business experience. And I, I didn't want that to go to waste. So in corporate spaces I also use similar. but different outcome driven methods to help organizations solve problems bring about innovation and align to their strategic goals. So again, using play, using tactile methods, et cetera. So when I say that there is a defining moment. I think , there's been so many in there, but I guess , the biggest one was probably the start of in every season that started the whole journey. But when I look back on my life, there's probably so many other points that have pointed in that direction. So that's why I said I've probably been facilitating for long time, a longer time than I can count. Olivia: Yeah, that facilitation experience is fascinating, isn't it? Because as you say, it's not like a, clear moment or a clear role, it's kind of something that's been natural to you , for a while. And yeah, it seems like there's, , um, the kind of community spaces part of you in every season. Which You said kinesthetic. Abimbola: Mm-hmm. Olivia: Like the doing part to kind of move through any transition we might be in. And I can testify. I went to a fantastic session. Thank you so much. And I'm fascinated actually at how my experience was online. and that was, really helpful in terms of me recovering from an operation and moving through that. Abimbola: And then there's this other aspect where you've brought your many years of kind of corporate experience into, hands on type workshops with teams with, you know, leaders in, different settings. And I wanted to ask a bit more about, some of the principles Can I find out a bit more about those? Yeah, sure. So, in the corporate space I work with Atúnkò. So Atúnkò is the name of my consultancy company. And, I'm from West Africa. My family's from West Africa and Nigeria to be precise. And the direct meaning of Atúnkò is to rebuild and to rewire, and that's what we help. Teams and organizations do. That's literally something I say in one of my videos like a million times. So it's just rolling off my tongue. it's true that's what we help teams and organizations do, and the, the practices that we use have developed from, I guess my, facilitation experience. my love of. Tactile and hands-on, doing practice, also Lego serious play and also expressive arts. So I feel like there is such an intersection because as you can see, I do community work. I also do corporate work. I have an expressive arts background and I also do things like Lego Serious play and other types of facilitation. And I feel that there's an intersect of that world, but what I would really say that. My work is grounded on is, I guess, human-centered principles where I lean a lot on, that empathetic and congruence. Congruence is a really big part of the work that I do. and it goes back to why that landed with me from the executive workshop, that feeling of, Hmm, how does this feel? Does this feel right? Does this feel like the right thing to do? So congruence is a really big part, a big practice that underpins everything that I do. And there's also another practice that I work with and I call it the àjọṣe practice. So àjọṣe, again in my local dialect means let's do it together. So it's a collaborative approach and I don't think. I won't say, I don't think it's a real approach. It's, it's a real approach for me and I've coined it, but it means, you know, it's something where you're journeying together and I guess it's more than just collaboration. It's more of a collective becoming, and so just journeying as you collectively come. Because even where I facilitate a space There's an outcome towards it and I'm helping whether it's teams and leaders achieve that outcome. I also learn from that as well. there is a change within me after each workshop I do. There is something that I've noticed, whether it's, I remember I was in Denmark last month and. It always just gets me, you're in a room with 180 people that you are helping to facilitate this space using Lego. And then, we've asked, okay, build, you know this, or build your tower, and then there's a silence in the room. That's silence. Just gets me each time. 'cause I just think, how are adults sitting here playing with Lego and being completely silent? Like it doesn't last long, but like there is a silence that it just always gets me like, wow. their attention is so focused on what they're doing. So, there's that part of I'm also learning. Within the work that I do and I make sure that I turn things always back to me. What have I learned from this? So I guess when I say that, I just shared practice that collective becoming and also a human centered approach based on my background in expressive arts. Trained in Lego serious play, but also that business experience and acumen that I've had over the past 17 years. And then also the empathetic community spaces that I run. It's a merge of all of those, and I think every facilitator has a work that they do or a method that they use, but also I think no space can replicate that. Everybody's uniquely themselves. So I think my approach is very unique in that way. I'm showing up as congruently as I can in that space. Olivia: Hmm. So, àjọṣe let's do it together. And I love this kind of attention moment or this silence moment you talked about, kind of brief, but focused . With this kind of tactile hands-on work, I'm sure it doesn't land beautifully and easily and perfectly with every workshop you've ever done. what are the ways that you get to that attention silent moment? You know, it, seems like quite a challenge to achieve sometimes. Abimbola: Yeah, I think I've been lucky that in most workshops when people get their hands on the Lego, or sometimes I use other means, so I have an called wax and bricks method where I use Lego bricks and I also use modeling wax. So it's a bit harder than Play-Doh, but it's completely moldable and it doesn't dry out and it's more natural. And what I've done in those sessions is I take sometimes. Multiple tactile things. So some people actually don't like Lego, like they don't like touching it. it's a thing and that's very Okay. So because it is something hard, I bring about something soft as well and something that they can mold and that sometimes helps. So what I sometimes do in sessions where I'm like, I don't know whether this is gonna land or, you know, I've been given a brief about some things. I can bring two alternative means.. , which then people can choose. Which they want, or they can use both, but they're choosing essentially, but we're still going through what we need to do. But they have then a say and a choice in what they want to do. I've never had anybody refuse anything. that's been good. And then when I've worked online, there's a session that I did. It was really powerful and actually it was a practitioners, counselors, psychotherapists, and. I asked them to bring something that they could build with, you know, ice, Lego, or bricks or blocks or modeling clay. And people brought clay, people brought Play-Doh, people bought marshmallows. I loved the creativity, someone brought something else, like it wasn't what you would think it would, but they were still able to build, And actually that session was quite focused on. Playing Your Way to Better Decisions, which is a program that I run, and they were able to do that, like get better decision making from that session using whatever means that they have. So essentially like.. Anything tactile is anything that you can touch. Olivia: So that's about options. So bringing different things because not everyone, it will land that particular kind of object , and I love the marshmallows. I love the fact that people have been so creative with what they already have. So options, but also, like you say, the non-judgment and allowing for time . So. I'm just kind of jumping now to thinking about an actual workshop with you and, you mentioned that modeling wax,, you mentioned sometimes mixing it with Lego bricks, what might actually happen in a session with you? What might those different things, tactile objects, what would they mean for me in the session with you? Abimbola: I mean, they can mean anything, right? I always say that, essentially I feel that you can facilitate with a pencil or a matchstick, right? Anything can be anything. And, there's a quote that says Nothing is. Insignificant. So everything has meaning and everything can have meaning. So depending on the direction of our workshop. So say for example, if it was a play your way to better Decisions Workshop or play Your Way to More Congruent Decisions workshop, we would be using that modeling clay to. Scope out the options that, look at the decision that we're making. Scope out the options, and then choose or not choose. 'cause not choosing is also an option, right? So we'd get to the end of the workshop where we've created and made and shared stories. And then We decide. Or the participant decides. What their choice is. And not making a choice is also a choice, which is quite an empowering choice by the way. But what it does is it playfully rewires you for decision making. 'cause it means that a decision doesn't have to be, I need all the data like this, and then I need to be stressed, and then I need to have decision and then actually. I can play about this. So yeah, we do a lot of, uh, the term would be blue sky thinking, but I call it purple cloud thinking. Right? So you could, it could be whatever it is that you want it to be your decision. You could choose to join the circus. You could choose to move to the other side of the world, like imagination is free. You can use it. So, we would option out all of these with our play materials and then we'll tell stories around it. And I guess just notice how we feel in that moment about the decision that we're. Playing with at the time. And then also it's rewiring because now we can play with that decision. We came in with the workshop with it heavy, but now we're playing with it and actually it means we can revisit it again. And it doesn't have to feel heavy because we don't have to have the final outcome. Now we don't have to make the decision, but we do know that we can play with it. Olivia: What is it that using these tactile methods shifts in us? Abimbola: you know, I have five children there's a lot of play happening and they're at different ages. So I have a teenager and then my youngest is six. and there's a lot of play happening in our house, and I think there's something that happens to us at some point that we forget to play. as we grow up, we think actually we need to make serious decisions. Now we need to be serious in how we do things. But we forget to play. And actually play is a big part of our learning. It teaches us to create, it teaches us to fail. It teaches us how we mock things up and we are building blueprints. To make decisions while we're playing, but we don't do that enough because for the most part, we wanna get a right answer. So when we explore that through play it can bring about a lightness. Sometimes that in itself can feel overwhelming and again, it's a practice, right? You don't do a workshop and then everything changes. And once you've built a new pathway for a decision through play, you have that pathway, right? So you can revisit it again And the more you do it, the more pathways you're gonna build to make your decision making better. So. A lot of the fundamental work that I do with teams and organizations is that play your way to better decisions or play your way to congruent decisions. And it's building a continual and sustainable framework of play that allows you to be able to make better decisions by playing, by failing, by doing silly things. That also brings about insight as well. Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. it's kind of very much a very, Learning lab type space that you are describing very open and for yourself, right. As well as others in the room. So, I'm interested because it does feel experimental in lots of ways, what has happened in workshop spaces that maybe haven't gone quite to plan for you or have been surprises that you've learned from? Abimbola: so when you say experimental, it's like creativity. And for me, I, I love being creative, but I also, I love creativity within a framework and a container. because I think if you're just like, be creative and be free, that doesn't give enough permission actually. 'cause it's too wide and too broad. So, for example, if you say, make something. that's so broad. If you say make something with this paper in five minutes, I have a container to put that in on framework. so I work within frameworks for the most part, and it's creating and sharing and reflecting back. So as long as I kind of stick to that framework, it always works for the most part. Right? Things that have happened within workshops. Good things. I mean, I, I was in a space where I had, not too long, but I asked people to build, what they felt like today and people ended up crying and actually having like a real emotional experience with that through what they had built. So that's always humbling actually to be able to hold a space where people feel safe enough. To do that. Olivia: and then also it's metaphor, right? So a lot of the time. when we see people, how are you? Oh, I'm fine. You are not fine. Not really. Abimbola: you need to be able to stop and have a conversation and draw all of that out. But for the most part, we just brush over a lot of things. But when you talk about a metaphor, it's you, but sitting outside of you. And you can talk about it more clearly and direct. And then when you realize that actually it is part of me, it gets emotional, right? Because you're looking at this mirror. So I think the power of metaphor itself, whether it's tactile I think it works better with tactile because you've built something when you make that connection of how you connect to what you've built or what you've drawn it becomes quite emotional because you then go like. Super deep, real quick. it gets from zero to quick, zero to deep really quick, and you're like, how did we get here? So I think the power of metaphor, but also using tactile with that just allows people to go from, I'm fine to actually, this is what this model is saying today. Oh, this model has an aspect of me in there and this is how I feel. Actually, I resonate with that model. Olivia: Hmm. So Yes. Yeah, that's given me shivers actually just kind of going, oh wow. Like it is that metaphor, that meaning that story coming back to the story again. But like you say, it's right in front of you, isn't it? It's, it's not an abstract. In your mind discussion? Yeah. Abimbola: Yeah. So when things are abstract in your mind, it's one thing when you allow or release that to come out, whether you've built something or drawn something or created something, it's out there so you see it and it becomes more real. There's just something about looking at it, I guess, or feeling it, touching it and being part of that construction. Olivia: Are there more sort of, different materials that you are curious to work with or try? Abimbola: so I did woodwork for GCSE and I am like. maybe I need to go back into woodworking. So if you see, anything, don't, be surprised. It's all tactile, like all the things you can touch. So yeah, maybe that. I just love trying different things and I. What you can do with that and the conversations that you can have with people and their introspection and reflection that you can get with people when they're doing and creating something I've always loved. Creating, even before I knew that I loved creating, I loved the process of creating more than anything. I love seeing something and in seeing what it's become, that transformation process. And I love being part of that, that's actually one of my, um, ways that I. de-stress, like it could even be cleaning at home. Like I'll start reorganizing stuff, I'll start doing stuff, and then I look at it and like, oh, that looks different to how it looked before. Oh, maybe I could do this. And that energizes me. So, I'm currently have my eye on woodworking at the moment, but, watch this space. Olivia: Yeah, already I'm excited about like the range of wood, and it's such a beautiful natural material that I think will evoke so much in the kind of workshops you do. So, I'm kind of thinking about you know, any questions that you might have, not necessarily for me, but we like to have that kind of connection with all of our guests that we invite onto the podcast. So. We're gonna ask next, yeah. Do you have a question that you might wanna ask the next facilitator? Abimbola: I guess, I mean, I, I like reading. I like learning, so I guess I would ask them what have they read? Recently that's left an impact on them. So I think that's universal. So it doesn't matter who you interview. Olivia: yeah. And it's always fascinating that question. I've always scribbled down like, oh, someone's just mentioned this thing and da da da. I ha I unfortunately have lots of books on shelves that I haven't. Touched yet. What's your relationship with books Reading? Abimbola: I love to buy books. Some of them sit on my shelf feeling unloved, but luckily, I have other readers in the house who love books too. This year I've really tried to, like, I've reordered them on my bookshelf in my reading order. You are like, you look on the book. Okay, this is what I'm reading now. Okay, then this is what I'm reading next. Okay. This is what I'm reading and my order changes and I like push other books into the queue. But I've started doing that this year. I listen to a lot of books. So when I drive long journeys, I listen to a lot of books, but I do like reading. I love reading poetry. I think poetry is something that just I, uh, clearly and probably it's probably come through. I'm a reflective person, so I like to reflect and I could, I could find one thing that resonates and I could like ruminate on it for a little bit and just let it enter So I love reading poetry. I had a book club yesterday with, some other Lego facilitators. We were looking at this really cool book called, collaborating with Your Enemies with, Adam Cam and, He was on the call as well, so we got to ask him loads of questions, which is so cool. but that, was definitely a rewire for me. Um, over the last few weeks that I've been reading the book, I, I've been savoring it, like reading little bits, but it just talks about, how you collaborate in spaces that are not your comfort zone. And for the most parts we want to exit and run away, but actually lean into that and stretch. And actually there's multiple shades of gray and there's no one right answer and there's no right way. but there is still a way that you can collaborate with somebody else while being true and congruent to yourself. so I think it's a really powerful book. It made me look at like relationships. That I've had in the past, friendships, family parenting in a different lens. 'cause I'm like, okay, right. So, I was a bit more relaxed, so my kids caught like more squash over the last few days, you know, while I'm still in the book. Olivia: The benefits of reading particular books on those around you. Right, Abimbola: right. So, so I love reading. I love listening to books. I don't get as much time in, in the ideal world, I just sit around reading books, but I don't have that time. But, I do read as much as I can. and I find actually that. As much as I love a book sometimes, or it's been recommended to me and I really wanna read it, if the tone and the writing is not captivating, I'm unable to read it. And that's one thing I've had to give myself permission of recently to be like, I know you wanna read this book, but it's not engaging you in the way that you'd hoped it to be, and it's okay to not read it. Whereas before I was used to like powering through and then it'll be like a year reading the same book and not getting anything from it. But yeah, it's either that or I speed read it. Olivia: These are great tips, which, I'm sure will help many people will help me. I love the ordering. That's so simple, but I hadn't thought of it and it's a really beautiful question that we will share with our next guest and. I will do as well is, to keep our conversation going a little bit when this podcast episode does come out and when it goes up and is shared with others on LinkedIn. I will share with you a question that will have come from another guest. I don't have it with me just yet for us to sort of discuss it. However, I wanna try something which is maybe bringing it to. A kind of conversation that we might have online through chat. And that might be like a nice way to, to keep it going. Yeah, Abimbola: absolutely. I'm curious to hear the question that will come up. Olivia: Brilliant. Well, listen, it's been wonderful to connect with you again today. Thank you for your time, your energy, your stories. And yeah, we shall speak again soon. Abimbola: Thank you. Thank you. Olivia: Thanks for listening to facilitation stories brought to you by IAF England and Wales. We like to collect stories, so get in touch. If you have an idea, the contact info is at facilitationstories.com. There you can subscribe, follow like the show so you get notified of new episodes. This has been facilitation stories.

January 19, 2026

FS 80 From Facilitation to Hosting: Creating Transformative Spaces with Peter Pula

<div>Todays episode explores the evolving relationship between facilitation and hosting, highlighting how both practices can create transformative spaces for individuals and communities. Peter Pula shares insights from years of cultivating community through participatory dialogue and generative journalism. The conversation delves into the distinctions between facilitation often structured and outcome driven and hosting, which embraces emergence, deep listening, and co-creation.</div> <div> </div> <div>They talk about: </div> <ul> <li>The difference between facilitation and hosting</li> <li>The use of time triads and deep listenting in group practice</li> <li>Learning from mistakes and adapting when things dont go as planned</li> <li>Moving from command-and-control to particpatory approaches</li> </ul> Quote highlights <div> "I feel like I am participating in the unfolding of human evolution and the evolution of community, and I don't know how that can do anything but make you smile." "And by naming the failure it becomes something else and it becomes… Something powerful… " "Before it was a passion. Now it feels like an essential work." Links Todays Guest <div>The Subsidiarist <a href= "https://peterjpula.substack.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" data-saferedirecturl= "https://www.google.com/url?q=https://peterjpula.substack.com/&source=gmail&ust=1768923828515000&usg=AOvVaw34vJ7FE02pa2_nTJUBWQFg">https://peterjpula.substack.com/</a></div> <div>Citizen Studios <a href="https://citizenstudios.mn.co/about" target="_blank" rel="noopener" data-saferedirecturl= "https://www.google.com/url?q=https://citizenstudios.mn.co/about&source=gmail&ust=1768923828515000&usg=AOvVaw3HftJnr7SmIB4IV9Lys3bd"> https://citizenstudios.mn.co/about</a></div> <div>Linked In <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterpula/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" data-saferedirecturl= "https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterpula/&source=gmail&ust=1768923828515000&usg=AOvVaw1OC28H5HL35geaFZ5LMP3Z"> https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterpula/</a></div> <div>Website: <a href="https://www.peterpula.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" data-saferedirecturl= "https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.peterpula.com/&source=gmail&ust=1768923915750000&usg=AOvVaw0Ao5MpiKVVlp-GI6HU0w13"> www.peterpula.com</a></div> <div>Cultivating Community Gatherings (free): https://www.tickettailor.com/events/peterpula/1786857</div> Todays host: Sam Moon: Faciliator www.linkedin.com/in/theboymoon123 To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter: 🎧 <a href= "https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/">https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ </a>📧 podcast@iaf-englandwales.org 🌐 <a href= "https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales">https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales</a> _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ </div> <div> </div> <div>Transcript:</div> <div> Sam Moon & Peter Pula Sam: Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the Community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Sam Moon, and my guest today is Peter Pula. Peter is the founder of Axiom News, generative journalism, the Peter Borough Dialogues, and a proud member of the Generative Journalism Alliance. These days, he's mostly concerned with, in his own words, my beloved cultivating community going on six years now, and where I first met Peter during the first few weeks of COVID when I joined an online global gathering of folk exploring how we could be together apart during what was to become very uncertain times with long periods of lockdown. Peter crafted a space from which people shared experiences and stories where deep relationships began to form and has continued to do so amongst the community that first got together and others who have joined since. So honoring that my own facilitation journey has been shaped very much through Peter's commitment to life given approaches of facilitation, it is an absolute pleasure to welcome you here today, Peter, and on that note, and before we get into some juicy questions, please introduce yourself, who you are and what you get up to in your world of facilitation. Peter: Who am I? I think I will say today that I am a person who deeply cares about the wellbeing of humanity. I'm a person who's. Gravely concerned with the prevailing trends at the moment, and I believe that hosting and facilitating people in dialogue that brings to the surface. Their deepest gifts, talents, intentions, and passions in a way that encourages us to be differently together, might at one time have been a nice to have and now it's a need to have. So I'm fully committed to the practices of facilitation and hosting. With the view to, well, for me it's a calling and a critically important one. And that's why I'm glad to be here talking with you, Sam. 'cause we've travelled for a number of years. We've got a lot of, water under the bridge, a lot of experience under our belt. And, we've traveled through some of those crises together in community held in a certain way. And so I think we could say that's also what I'm up to. Sam: Thank you, Peter. You put that, in a really lovely way. And we've got some questions that we're gonna explore together, but if I can just invite you to expand a little bit more on, your experience of facilitation and hosting and how you have made a distinction between the two and how you hold those. Peter: When you look to the definition of facilitation and facilitator, there's not much there that I wouldn't say also applies to hosting. I think in a lot of practices though, there are some differences, and it might be sort of a spectrum where my idea of the practice of facilitation is that when facilitating, we are inviting people into a fairly, predetermined process and trying to bring them along to more of a predetermined outcome than you might be if you're hosting, it might be a learning outcome, for example, we want, by the end of this process for everyone to be able to say, speak French or to understand a business process or to have come to some understanding about how to better manage their relationships with their peers. And then way on the other side of the spectrum on hosting, I think there we are then trying to surface what's most alive for each person in the room. With a view to exploring and discovering almost endless possibilities. But, then ensuring that each one of the possibilities that actually wants to manifest is nurtured in a way, by the way, we dialogue and connect and decide so that they actually can come to fruition. I think there might be a little bit more wildness and willingness in hosting than there is in facilitation, I think they're arts that are closely related, they're in the same family. And I know as hosts sometimes there are moments where I absolutely must facilitate almost with an iron fist. Knowing how and when to make that call is part of the hosting art. Sometimes a super clear process is necessary. Sometimes a process set is co-created by the participants who have some skill in how to be present to one another is also necessary. So I don't think it's a, it's not an either or, it's a spectrum and there is a relationship between the two ideas. But I feel like in practice they are slightly different ideas. Sam: I really like how you describe, the wildness and willingness, that can take you into the labyrinth of hosting and discovering what's alive. Whilst also what you are saying is recognizing that facilitation process where it needs to be tighter is also about recognizing when it's important to do that around certain things, rather than being wedded to a certain way of doing something, it's about understanding when one needs to come forth, and in terms of where your, start from and where you want to go. Peter: If I could, Sam, there might be one other distinction, and it would be interesting to test this with your listeners and their experience because, I don't move in circles where we describe what we do as facilitation. So I could be completely wrong about this, but there has been some discussion in the hosting arts world around one of the suggestions that, in hosting, it's considered a very important principle that as a member of a hosting team, you also participate in dialogue, and in many facilitative sessions, it seems important that the facilitators stay observant and outside of the dialogue. So I'm just wondering if that's a distinction that holds true, or if it's not actually the case. Sam: I think it's a really good question, Peter, and I think there are different views within that, depending on the ideology that it's coming from. And I know there is that conversation that takes place around, is a facilitator neutral or not. And there's clear opinions on both sides of that, but I think in terms of the experience that we've had together and in those spaces, I would agree that the host becomes more part of that conversation and is involved in the dialogue. But it's about not influencing it. And I think for me, I probably stand on the side of that, lean more into using questions to draw things out rather than put myself forward. Peter: Right. Sam: I also find that when I put myself forward, it can deaden the air a little bit as well. Take the life out because, unless invite invited to teach, don't teach. Peter: Yes. Beautifully said. Sam: So what I wanted to kind of touch on, what is it in your world of hosting and facilitation that's making you smile at the moment? Peter: Well, you know, Sam, you mentioned in your introduction, this space we've been holding together for the last five and a half years. It's come to be known as cultivating community and for whatever reason we've been, that's every fortnightly on Fridays. For five and a half years, we've seen probably 600 different people join that space. There's a core group of, maybe 12 or 15 that come very, very regularly, and another extended group of maybe 45 or 50 that drop in, come and go, who, you know, take comfort in just knowing that the space is there. It's the group of us has started to talk about how, not only have we become a community spread across several continents that are quite committed to the community and to each other, it's, also, been spoken that it's also a practice field for how we be in community differently. From that, I've had the delight to hear from a number of members of that community. Their lives have been changed by being part of that, to such a degree that they're also bringing these practices, into their own communities and morphing and changing them to suit their own skills and ways of doing things like improv, for example, these are adjacent practices that, work to the same principles and grow together. And that group has been in so much practice for so long. It's a blessing for me, one, to be part of the community, but two, to see the effects it's having on people's lives and in the world. And three, because we're in practice so much, I can also as a host, fully participate in it. And it is for me, a healing place to be. I feel like I am participating in the unfolding of human evolution and the evolution of community, and I don't know how that can do anything but make you smile. Sam: It's certainly, yeah, absolutely It does, it is a place that gives life and gives energy. And with that, your view, were talking about the effect that it is had on people. Tell me a bit more about that and what it was around the way in which you have been facilitating, hosting that space that you think may have enabled that or created the conditions for it to have that effect on people. Peter: Yeah, and we haven't really come up with a really smart, clever way to talk about it, but we've used the idea of time triads, and for your listeners, we can maybe just describe that quickly, like we bring people into small groups of three, every person has three minutes to respond to the question of the moment, which, you know, we've got a few ones that are pretty solid, pretty tight, but we also sense into what the question is for each small group. So these are 90 minute sessions. We usually get three to four rounds of small group time triads. In which each person has three minutes to respond to the question for that particular small group without being interrupted by the two listeners. We can go pretty deep into the practice of relational presencing and what it actually means to be present to a person who's speaking without being distracted by the need to maybe cut them off so someone else can have their turn, or because you're curious about something or because something they've said triggered you. We could go for hours talking about the method if you like. So that round of these small groups and then people come outta these small groups and they're reflected as a whole, but what's alive for them now? Not a report, but a reflection of what struck them about that, time together. It's a process by which people come into contact with their inner teacher, and find their own voice, speak it in all their strength and beauty, and then take turns witnessing another, and then another. Do the same. So the complexity of the field is like tremendous. I think over time it's become something of an island of coherence. I guess another really important piece about the methodology is that it is something that happens at a consistent and regular time and has done so for a very long time. So it becomes a structural, stable point in people's lives, which makes it something they can count on, something that helps 'em co-regulate, makes it easy for them to invite others, gives them some sense of, stability and constancy. So, you know, those are some of the architectural pieces of that. And then there's the idea good questions or provocative questions. Like every small group, every time triad, presences a question that we have come to define as being these three things sufficiently ambiguous, deeply personal and anxiety producing. And you can ask a question like, at what crossroads do you now find yourself? To the same group a hundred times. Every time their answer will be different and it will be somewhat evolved from where they were before. And if a community continues to visit those kinds of questions together, people experience tremendous personal shifts. And find themselves in relationship enough with other people to take their next courageous steps into whatever it is they want to bring alive in the world, wherever they are. And that's the sort of effect we're seeing, like people are bringing this kind of work into their churches, into their workplaces. They're shifting the way they interact with their colleagues at work. They're even changing narrative practices. They're becoming less and less comfortable with the command and control paradigms in which most workplaces work, which denigrate and disregard a lot of what people have to bring. So when you develop that kind of like experience, coherence, relationship, assuredness, because you finally got to the root of what's important to you. You move in the world differently and that changes the world. You become a, a resonance center of your own Sam: Yes. And from sharing that space with you and being part of that space, that's something that I've witnessed and experienced myself. And often people will come out of a conversation, and will be feeling I didn't realize I was going to say that Peter: Yes, Sam: I didn't realize I was going to feel this and that, has a kinda real, sort of magical experience, which then people return to. And so the things you are talking about there in terms of the conditions that you are creating is that it's kinda regular, it's consistent using the sort of a method and approach of time triads, people come back and report on what they experienced. And it's on regular time and using the questions that have a structure are the things that create a container for that space, create an energy for those things to emerge and link into what has shaped the hosting practice in many ways. What was it that helped you get into that work? Tell me a little bit about your journey into that. How did you discover this way of working? Peter: I was thinking about that and there's a couple ways into the story and it seems like I always tell it differently, but, I started in news and in a strength-based environment and that led me to the point where I was leading an organization that had, between 12 and 17 people working for it at any given time. I started to realize being the leader of an organization was not something I was that interested in doing. In the old way of command and control, set the intention and take the hill, that didn't suit me at all. So I started to, given that we were doing strength-based journalism, we started to see the kinds of life-affirming patterns that you can actually start to sequence out through powerful questions. And the journalism was lifting up what people wanted to create in the world, telling a story about it, and then people would come to their assistance and then something would change, and that would be our next story. So I started to come into contact through that work folks like the asset-based community development movement and the appreciative inquiry movement and practice, and appreciative inquiry, of course, is an organizational strength-based organizational development model, which is fundamentally democratic. So I started to take some of what I was learning there, and then of course, appreciative inquiry, things like open space started to show up in the art of hosting community. And it struck me that this is a completely different way, this is a life affirming way you can lead an organization. Like you either trust the people you work for or you don't. And if you don't trust them, you're probably gonna command and control. If you do trust them, you can create different structures, you can facilitate different kinds of interactions that actually bring to the surface all the best that every person in the building has to bring to the purpose under which you're gathered. And that's what got me into it. So we turned what was then Axiom News into what became World Blue Democratic Workplace for seven years. Eventually we decided not to continue with that certification because we didn't feel their standards were high enough. You can run an organization in a deeply democratic way that cuts out the need for so much bureaucracy and so much control that because the people in the room who are committed to the cause, finding ways to work together in their own ways actually cuts through a lot of the nonsense that gets in the way. Like even the great Peter F. Drucker made the case that 90% of what we consider management is actually interference. Facilitating dialogue and connection and collaboration in the kinds of ways we can, and the ways that we are, can fundamentally change the way organizations work and the way people experience where they work. And that's what got me into it. So I tried these things out in organizational settings, a number of nonprofits as well that I was connected with and involved in. And then, um, COVID hit and uh, Sam: And here we are. Peter: And here we are. Sam: Yeah, and what you are, what I'm experiencing in terms of as you're sharing that and describing that and articulating that is how deeply powerful it is, it's not this one directional or one dimensional way of working. There's a real existential kind of aspect to that and a power to that. And the words that sort that I picked up was, trust. In terms of learn your journey of that and trust in people. And going back to where you were talking about where the hosting side of things can be wild and wooly. I can imagine and from the experiences I've had myself when I've delivered in a hosting way, trust plays a key factor in that as well. In terms of any facilitation. Peter: You gotta trust yourself. You gotta trust the room. You gotta trust the people in the room as a group, and you gotta trust the process. And the moment you don't, the thing collapses and you've gotta command and control it. It's almost like a spiritual practice, trust and trusting the people and trusting the room and trusting the process. It can take some intestinal fortitude, but once you see it work, you can have faith in it. Sam: Absolutely. So that's really interesting. What I was gonna ask there is what's the courage that someone needed to move into that space of trust rather than, I remember when I first started out in facilitation donkeys ago in particular youth work, I would have a session plan and I would work on that session plan and it would be dah, dah, even if it wasn't working, it's like, no, this is the session plan. Peter: Right. Sam: Tell me a little bit about your experience of that trust and kind of the courage that's needed around that. Peter: The name Blair Singer's coming up for some reason, but I ended up being in a thing that he was facilitating years and years and years ago, and he had this concept of as ising. And so when things started to go really wonky for me in a room, I figured I'd give it a try. And it's just like, I would just say, okay, wait, we can all sense that something's not right here. Sam: So is that is in, did you say? Peter: As is. Sam: As is. Peter: I don't even know if that makes sense, but that's what he called it. Just to see things as they are. I was hosting or facilitating and it just felt like something was wonky, something was not working. So I simply said, okay, does anyone else feel like this isn't working? All the hands go up, right? Sam: Wow. Peter: I say, okay, let's go into small groups of three and find the two people in the room, you know, the least. And let's just, without judging or critiquing what anybody in your small group says, just say what you're experiencing right now. And so they did that. And then people said, well this is my experience. Another person said, that's my experience. And what was interesting you hear four or five people, you realize they're all having a very different experience. So there's not one problem. So it becomes very complexified Sam: And what happens from there? Peter: This is something else that I think has been key for me is that I would stand in front of the room and say, well, and sometimes you have their hosting team, so you sit with the hosting team, maybe while the community's in their small groups, the hosting team sits aside and says, what's a good question for us? What's the question that wants to be asked now? Or you can also go back to the room when they come back and say, all right, what's a question that we'd like to sit with now? And then people start popcorning them up and then you whittle it down and then you find out what question the room wants to be asked, Sam: Right, Ok. Peter: and then you're back on track. So I mean, in that there is some structure, right? Sam: Such a beautiful way of shaping something as a, what do I do when things don't go to plan, when all my anxieties are kicking in? How can we reconnect with the group that we are with? Peter: There's a lot of letting go of your ego in that. Like you can go, oh, I had this brilliant plan. I was up all night thinking about it, maybe even many nights. And you, gotta let it all go and say, okay, well. 'Cause people do want the thing to work. And they do want to get something out of it. So there's a lot to work with there. And it could be that the thing's gone wonky 'cause you got in the way. So get, get out of the way. Sam: And there's a freedom there, isn't there? a freedom that you're creating. You're creating an agency. Peter: and then everyone thinks you're some kind of jedi san. But the fact of the matter is you just buggered it up and got outta the way. Sam: Yeah, and there's so much reflection afterwards from that as well, in terms of the learning. Peter: There is, it's very powerful, because each person has their voice. A friend, a colleague of mine by the name of Peggy Holman, who's a brilliant facilitator and fantastic thinker on these things, she says people resent feeling processed. Sam: Right. Peter: So if you stay with your process and it's like they feel like you're putting 'em through a spiritual meat grinder, it's right and proper that they would rebel against that. I think it's right and properly they rebel against that. So hold space for the other thing to happen that trusts that they also want this to go well, they also want to get something out of this. And your job is to, okay, if, if that path is blocked, then sit in a circle and think about what the next path is. Sam: Yeah. And there's a courage and a presence to notice that. have to Peter: But I think you have to have the kahunas to give it a try once. Sam: Yeah. And be ok. Peter: And even if it doesn't work, I mean, have a debrief because you're gonna learn something from it. Sam: Yeah. And I guess, what you are, you are touching on there is that being okay to fail in the process Peter: Yes Sam: And by naming the failure it becomes something else and it becomes Peter: Something powerful. Sam: Something more powerful, 'cause then people experience that together and in collaboration. Yeah. That is really beautiful, I mean. I guess in terms of like, one of the other questions and you know, in a way you've, you've answered it was what fluff ups have you learned from, in the practice, because this art of hosting creates more space for that I guess. Peter: I talk about the wild and the woolly of the hosting, and I think you can get, I mean, I have gotten so excited about just the process and the connection that, there have been times when I have not brought enough context at the beginning. So, I remember one event, we were like on the third morning, a guy who was actually staying at my house as a guest, said to me, I think, Peter, you need to just get in front of the room and tell us what the hell we're doing here. Sam: That's interesting. Peter: There's a bit of context and , you know, there's another, you know, just recently, like after all these years, Sam, you know how it's important to start on time. Start together is the thing, like whatever time that is, we start together and we started this thing and it was one of these digital things and people started to trickle in. So we'd started an opening circle where the dialogue guidelines had been given and then four people were in it. Then there were seven people, then there were nine people, and it just turned into a rodeo. So in order for the wild and woolly to happen, you have to remember to set the frame, and that's context and very important to begin together. So even after all these years and all the mastery available, it's still easy to miss some key points that just go wonky. Sam: I love that in terms of the reflection on that and the root to it and reflecting back on, do people know why they're here? Peter: They don't. Sam: And sometimes people don't know why they're here, but if you started in that togetherness, everybody's starting from that point, almost whether they know why they are there or not, they get to learn that together because that's where you started from. And we are coming towards sort of the end of, this lovely conversation. Peter, and I'm going to ask, from the last, podcast that went out, Olivia asked her guest, Julia Slay for a question to bring into this conversation. And her question was, how has your practice as a facilitator evolved and changed? Peter: You did send this ahead of time and I've been thinking about it and I don't know if my answer is, but this is what's come up in my contemplation of that question. I used to believe that hosting, facilitating was a better way to conduct joint human endeavor and joint activity, and I think that was fairly light. I'm feeling now that it's a necessity. So there's a valorizing in what it is to be a host facilitator. You know, in the industrial age, management and accounting we're the thing. I think in the age we're heading into, it's hosting facilitation, and narrative arts. Hosting, arts and narrative arts that are essential to human wellbeing and thriving. So I'd say that I'm taking it far more seriously. Before it was a passion. Now it feels like an essential work. So, that's what came up for me in contemplation of Olivia's question. Sam: Peter, thank you for that really thoughtful, beautiful response. Peter: I think maybe in, part of the like, span of history we explored, and the nature of your questions. And I think also Sam, 'cause we've known each other for so long now, we have a lot of shared experience. A great deal of, uh, coherence was made for me. So I'm having a sense of coherence and wholeness, which I think is actually the point of this hosting, facilitating. The idea is to create the conditions so that people can feel this sense of wholeness so they can be assured of themselves in a world that's gone crazy. Yeah, meaning coherence, wholeness. That was my experience. Anyway. How about you? Do we have time for you to say Sam: I have enjoyed this interview. It is my first podcast, as part of the new crew, and I think coming in with, you know, the anxieties of doing something kind of new for the first time and recording for the first time. I think what I'm taking away and what meaning it's having for me is in terms of, is the fun of the conversation. Peter: You got a knack for that. Sam: And I, it's almost like studying more what I have. Being involved in, I guess this is a unique conversation because we know one another and we've, shared a practice as to someone that I would be interviewing that I wouldn't be familiar with. So I think this is quite a unique experience and involved in the conversation and the shared experience of it. So it's given a new kind of a deeper understanding and a different way to explore what it is, that happens in that space as well. So I think taking away your kind of, you know, a deeper perspective of what's been experienced. Peter: Very nice. Thank you. Sam: So that brings us on to, my final question, and that is to invite a question from you for our next guest who we don't know who it will be. Peter: So let's just go with the old classic Sam, and invite your next guest to respond to, at what crossroads do you find yourself with regards to your work in the world? Sam: Beautiful. That'll, uh, give whoever it is, something to chew and ponder over. Peter: Possibly even a good place to start. Sam: Many of our conversations is exactly where it starts. So, Peter, with that, it is been a, absolute pleasure, kind of speaking with you today. Peter: Likewise Sam, always. Sam: Thank you for joining the IAF podcast. And, uh, thank you and be well. Peter: You're welcome. Thank you, sir. Sam: So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales. If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website, facilitationstories.com, and to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use? We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas, so if there is a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about, send us an email at podcast@iaf-ew.co.uk We hope you join us for some more facilitation stories again soon. Until then, thank you for listening. </div>

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What is Facilitation Stories?: Facilitation: the art of enabling a group of people to achieve a common goal. IAF England Wales brings you a show by facilitators, for facilitators and anyone interested in using facilitation for change. We'll share guest stories, experiences and methods. Plus, we'll bring you up to date on what's happening at our Meetups.
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