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New Law Order

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by TalksOnLaw | Joel Cohen & John Morley

5.0(11 reviews)

11 episodes

Updated Daily

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Podcast Overview

New Law Order is a podcast about the business of Big Law and the technologies remaking it. Hosts Joel Cohen (founder of TalksOnLaw) and Professor John Morley (Yale Law School) interview the lawyers, founders, academics, and judges quietly, and not so quietly, rewiring the legal industry. Each episode is a candid, on-the-record conversation about what is actually happening inside the world's most prestigious law firms, the rise of AI and legal technology in legal practice, the economics of the modern partnership, litigation finance, the future of associate work, and the structural shifts the legal industry would rather not talk about... but must. Recent guests include: - Brad Karp, Former Chairman, Paul, Weiss - John Quinn, founder, Quinn Emanuel - Chris Bogart, co-founder & CEO, Burford Capital - Mike Gerstenzang, former managing partner of Cleary Gottlieb - Jason Boehmig, CEO, Ironclad - Gretta Rusanow, Head of Advisory Services, Citi Law Firm Group - Jeffrey Toobin, legal analyst and bestselling author - Scott Shapiro, professor, Yale Law School - Hon. Paul Grimm, Duke Law - Richard Sander, UCLA Law Topics include: Big Law strategy, AI in law firms, legal tech, ClearyX, litigation finance, law firm profitability, the partnership model, generative AI for lawyers, deep fakes in evidence, affirmative action after SFFA v. Harvard, and how the legal industry is being restructured by software. CLE-eligible interview versions and additional legal analysis are available at TalksOnLaw.com. New Law Order is a TalksOnLaw production, supported by a grant from the Oscar M. Ruebhausen Fund at Yale Law School. For questions or comments, email the show at newlaworder@talksonlaw.com.

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Publishing Since

1/20/2026

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Recent Episodes

May 26, 2026

CJ Mahoney (Meta): Inside Counsel at Scale

In this episode of New Law Order, Joel Cohen and Yale Law Professor John Morley speak with CJ Mahoney, Chief Legal Officer of Meta, about one of the hardest legal questions facing modern technology companies: when a product becomes deeply woven into daily life, how should the law think about harm, responsibility, and regulation? Drawing on a career that has taken him from Williams & Connolly to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative, Microsoft, and now Meta, Mahoney offers an unusually candid look at what it means to serve as the top lawyer inside a company operating at the center of law, politics, and technological change.A major focus of the conversation is the growing wave of litigation against Meta alleging that its products are addictive and harmful, particularly for younger users. Mahoney explains how Meta sees those cases, why he believes the underlying social and mental-health issues are more complex than the lawsuits suggest, and why he is skeptical that litigation is the best tool for addressing those concerns. The episode explores the tension between genuine public anxiety about screen time, adolescent well-being, and platform design, on the one hand, and the difficulty of translating those concerns into coherent legal standards on the other.The discussion also turns to the broader challenge of regulating a company like Meta. Mahoney reflects on defending Meta’s acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp, the problem of assigning legal responsibility in fast-moving technological environments, and the way major platforms increasingly face pressure to answer for social problems that may be real, but are not easily reducible to a single product or defendant. It is a conversation not just about Meta, but about the limits of courts, the ambitions of regulators, and the strain placed on legal doctrine when technology changes faster than consensus can form around it.Finally, the episode turns to AI and the legal profession. Mahoney discusses how Meta’s legal department is already using AI for summarization, drafting, spend management, and workflow support, and why he sees the next phase not as isolated AI tools, but as deeper integration into business processes. He also offers a clear-eyed view of what that means for lawyers and law firms: more pressure on routine work, greater importance for judgment and strategy, and a world in which knowing how to use AI may become part of baseline professional competence.Guest: CJ Mahoney is the Chief Legal Officer of Meta. Previously, he served in senior legal roles at Microsoft and as Deputy United States Trade Representative, where he played a central role in the renegotiation of NAFTA into the USMCA. Earlier in his career, he was a partner at Williams & Connolly, one of the nation’s leading litigation firms.For more conversations with the figures reshaping the legal business, subscribe to New Law Order. For a CLE-eligible version of this interview and more legal analysis, visit www.talksonlaw.com. For questions or comments, email newlaworder@talksonlaw.com.

May 5, 2026

Richard Sander (UCLA Law): A Mismatch Critique of Affirmative Action

Richard Sander, UCLA law professor and economist, has spent decades advancing one of the most controversial arguments in legal education: that large racial preferences in law school admissions may frequently harm the students they are intended to help. In this episode of New Law Order, Joel Cohen and Yale Law Professor John Morley speak with Sander about affirmative action, the Supreme Court’s decision in Students for Fair Admissions, and what new data may reveal about the future of law school admissions.Sander explains his “mismatch” hypothesis: the claim that students admitted with very large academic preferences may be more likely to struggle academically, land at the bottom of the class, and face lower odds of passing the bar than if they had attended a school where their entering credentials were closer to the median. The discussion is direct, data-heavy, and often uncomfortable, touching on race, merit, institutional secrecy, bar passage, and the incentives that shape elite legal education.Sander also examines what changed after SFFA. He argues that the first post-SFFA admissions cycle produced one of the most dramatic shifts in elite law school admissions in decades, with some schools appearing to reduce racial preferences substantially while others found ways to preserve diversity through different admissions strategies. Joel and John press Sander on the strength of the evidence, the limits of the mismatch theory, and whether the legal academy has been willing to test its own assumptions.The episode then turns from law schools to law firms. If elite employers continue to hire for diversity while drawing heavily from credential-driven pipelines, what obligations do they have to train, support, and retain the lawyers they recruit? Sander argues that real affirmative action cannot stop at admission or hiring; it must include institutional investment after the offer is made.Guest: Richard Sander is a professor at UCLA School of Law and a PhD economist whose work focuses on law, inequality, housing, and affirmative action. He is one of the leading academic critics of racial preferences in higher education and was cited by the Supreme Court in Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard.For more conversations with the figures reshaping the legal business, subscribe to New Law Order. For a CLE-eligible version of this interview and more legal analysis, visit <a href="http://www.talksonlaw.com">www.talksonlaw.com</a>. For questions or comments, email newlaworder@talksonlaw.com.

April 7, 2026

Mike Gerstenzang (Cleary Gottlieb): AI from the Inside

Michael A. Gerstenzang, the longtime managing partner and now senior partner of Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, explains how he positioned one of the world's most established law firms to lead in AI adoption — not by outsourcing innovation, but by building it from the inside. The conversation traces a series of structural bets that began before generative AI entered the mainstream, starting with ClearyX, a wholly owned technology subsidiary launched in 2021 to reinvent M&A due diligence. Gerstenzang describes the venture's founding provocation — imagine the business that puts Cleary Gottlieb out of business, and build it — and how A/B testing against traditional associate-led diligence demonstrated equal or superior quality at roughly half the cost.The discussion turns to the firm's acquisition of Springbok AI, a legal technology development company whose team now forms Cleary's internal AI acceleration unit, and what that acqui-hire reveals about a deeper challenge confronting every major firm: how to attract and retain elite technologists who would otherwise choose OpenAI or Anthropic over a law firm. Gerstenzang argues that the profession's relationship to technology must shift from infrastructure maintenance to client-facing partnership, and that partners need not master AI themselves but must stop building walls and start supporting those who build windmills. The episode examines the billable hour's structural misalignment with AI-driven efficiency, the emergence of fixed-fee and subscription billing models, and why firms that resist technological adoption will not preserve their margins but simply lose the work to competitors who embrace it.Throughout, Gerstenzang is unsparing about the limitations of the traditional law firm model but remains deeply optimistic about the future of lawyering — practiced increasingly alongside, and powered by, sophisticated technology.For more conversations with the figures reshaping the legal business, subscribe to New Law Order. For a CLE-eligible version of this interview and more legal analysis, visit <a href="%5C">www.talksonlaw.com</a>. For questions or comments, email newlaworder@talksonlaw.com. Michael A. Gerstenzang, the longtime managing partner and now senior partner of Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, explains how he positioned on

11 total episodes available

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Frequently asked questions

Have a different question and can't find the answer you're looking for? Reach out to our support team by sending us an email and we'll get back to you as soon as we can.

What is New Law Order?: New Law Order is a podcast about the business of Big Law and the technologies remaking it. Hosts Joel Cohen (founder of TalksOnLaw) and Professor John Morley (Yale Law School) interview the lawyers, founders, academics, and judges quietly, and not so quietly, rewiring the legal industry.

Each episode is a candid, on-the-record conversation about what is actually happening inside the world's most prestigious law firms, the rise of AI and legal technology in legal practice, the economics of the modern partnership, litigation finance, the future of associate work, and the structural shifts the legal industry would rather not talk about... but must.

Recent guests include:

- Brad Karp, Former Chairman, Paul, Weiss - John Quinn, founder, Quinn Emanuel - Chris Bogart, co-founder & CEO, Burford Capital - Mike Gerstenzang, former managing partner of Cleary Gottlieb - Jason Boehmig, CEO, Ironclad - Gretta Rusanow, Head of Advisory Services, Citi Law Firm Group - Jeffrey Toobin, legal analyst and bestselling author - Scott Shapiro, professor, Yale Law School - Hon. Paul Grimm, Duke Law - Richard Sander, UCLA Law

Topics include: Big Law strategy, AI in law firms, legal tech, ClearyX, litigation finance, law firm profitability, the partnership model, generative AI for lawyers, deep fakes in evidence, affirmative action after SFFA v. Harvard, and how the legal industry is being restructured by software.

CLE-eligible interview versions and additional legal analysis are available at TalksOnLaw.com. New Law Order is a TalksOnLaw production, supported by a grant from the Oscar M. Ruebhausen Fund at Yale Law School. For questions or comments, email the show at newlaworder@talksonlaw.com.
How often does this podcast release new episodes?: This podcast updates daily.
Where can I listen to this podcast?: This podcast is available on 4 platforms including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. You can also use the RSS feed directly.
Does this podcast accept guests?: Yes, this podcast regularly features guests.

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