People of the Pod

About People of the Pod

People of the Pod is an award-winning weekly podcast analyzing global affairs through a Jewish lens, brought to you by American Jewish Committee. Host Manya Brachear Pashman examines current events, the people driving them, and what it all means for America, Israel, and the Jewish people.

Publisher

American Jewish Committee (AJC)

Category

religion & spirituality · society & culture

Language

en

Explicit

No

First episode

24 Jan 2018

Latest episode

5 Feb 2026

Latest episodes

76 of 520 episodes have a transcript.

1. 

   5 Feb 2026TRANSCRIPT

   "Why Do They Hate Us?" CNN's Bianna Golodryga on Fighting Antisemitism in Schools

   CNN anchor Bianna Golodryga and Max Pashman discuss Golodryga's new book about antisemitism in schools, exploring its impact on students and the importance of addressing it, in this interview episode.

2. 

   23 Dec 2025TRANSCRIPT

   Tal Becker on The Emerging "Judeo-Muslim Civilization" and What It Means for the Middle East

   Are we in a 'plastic moment,' an inflection point where the future of the Middle East can finally be reshaped? Veteran peace negotiator Dr. Tal Becker joins the podcast to analyze the shifting tides of regional diplomacy. Reflecting on his recent discussions in Abu Dhabi, Becker describes the Abraham Accords as an emerging "Judeo-Muslim civilization" where the focus isn't on "who the land belongs to," but the realization that "we all belong to the land." Beyond geopolitics, Becker addresses the trauma of rising Western antisemitism—which he likens to a "zombie apocalypse"—and calls for a resurgence of liberal nationalism. This episode is a masterclass in navigating a zero-sum world to build a future of prosperity, courage, and shared belonging. Key Resources: The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC CEO Ted Deutch Op-Ed: 5 Years On, the Abraham Accords Are the Middle East's Best Hope AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman: As the international community looks to phase two of the cease fire between Israel and the Hamas terror group in Gaza, the American Jewish Committee office in Abu Dhabi invited Dr Tal Becker to participate in discussions about what's next for the region. Dr Becker is one of Israel's leading experts on international humanitarian law and a veteran peace negotiator with Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians. He is currently vice president of the Shalom Hartman Institute, and he joins us now right after the conference in Abu Dhabi to share some of the insights he contributed there. Tal, welcome to People of the Pod. Tal Becker: Thank you very much, Manya. Manya Brachear Pashman: So Tal, you have just returned from a conference in Abu Dhabi where you really took a deep dive, kind of exploring the nature of Arab-Israeli relations, as we are now entering the second phase of the ceasefire between Israel and Gaza. So I'm just curious, you've been steeped in this for so long, for decades, do you sense, or did you sense a significant shift in the region when it comes to Arab-Israeli relations and the future? Tal Becker: So I think Manya, we're at a very kind of interesting moment, and it's hard to say exactly which direction it's going, because, on the one hand, we have had very significant military successes. I think a lot of the spoilers in the region have been significantly set back, though they're still there, but Israel really has had to focus on the military side of things a lot. And it, I think, has strained to some extent, the view of what's possible because we're being so focused on the military side. And I think it is a moment for imagining what's possible. And how do we pivot out of the tragedy and suffering of this war, make the most of the military successes we've had, and really begin to imagine what this region could look like if we're going to continue to succeed in pushing back the spoilers in this way. Israel is a regional power, and I think it for all our vulnerability that requires, to some extent, for Israel to really articulate a vision that it has for the region. And it's going to take a little bit of time, I think, for everybody to really internalize what's just happened over these last two years and what it means for the potential for good and how we navigate that. So I really think it's kind of like what they call a plastic moment right now. Manya Brachear Pashman: A plastic moment, can you define that, what do you mean by plastic? Tal Becker: So what I mean by a plastic moment, meaning it's that moment. It's an inflection point right where, where things could go in one direction or another, and you have to be smart enough to take advantage of the fluidity of the moment, to really emphasize how do we maximize prosperity, stability, coexistence? How do we take away not just the capabilities of the enemies of peace, but also the appeal of their agenda, the language that they use, the way they try to present Muslim Jewish relations, as if they're a kind of zero sum game. So how do we operate both on the economic side, on the security side, but also on the imagining what's possible side, on the peace side. As difficult as that is, and I don't want to suggest that, you know, there aren't serious obstacles, there are, but there's also really serious opportunities. Manya Brachear Pashman: So what did you sense when you were there, in terms of the perception of Israel? I mean, were people optimistic, for lack of a better term? Tal Becker: So first of all, it was, you know, a great opportunity to be there. And having been involved, personally, very intensively in the Abraham Accords, I always feel a bit emotional whenever I'm in the Emirates in particular, and Morocco and Bahrain and so on. And to be honest, I kind of feel at home there. And so that's a lovely thing. I think, on the one hand, I would say there's a there's a relief that hopefully, please God, the war in Gaza is is behind us, that we're now looking at how to really kind of move into the phase of the disarmament of Hamas and the removal of Hamas from governance, you know, working with the Trump team and the Trump plan. And I think they have a bunch of questions. The Emiratis in particular, are strategic thinkers. They really want to be partners in advancing prosperity and stability across the region in pushing back extremism across the region, and I think they're eager to see in Israel a partner for that effort. And I think it puts also a responsibility on both of us to understand the concerns we each have. I mean, it takes some time to really internalize what it is for a country to face a seven-front war with organizations that call for its annihilation, and all the pressure and anxiety that that produces for a people, frankly, that hasn't had the easiest history in terms of the agenda of people hating the Jewish people and persecuting them. So I think that takes a bit of appreciation. I think we also, in the return, need to appreciate the concerns of our regional partners in terms of making sure that the region is stable, in terms of giving an opportunity for, you know, one way I sometimes word it is that, we need to prepare for the worst case scenario. We need to prevent it from being a self fulfilling prophecy. Which really requires you to kind of develop a policy that nevertheless gives an opportunity for things to get better, not just plan for things to get worse. And I think our partners in the Gulf in particular really want to hear from us, what we can do to make things better, even while we're planning and maybe even a bit cynical that things might be very difficult. Manya Brachear Pashman: So you mentioned the Abraham Accords, and I'm curious if you feel that Israel, I know Israel has felt isolated, at times, very isolated, and perhaps abandoned, is even the correct word. Do you feel that is the case as we enter the second phase of the ceasefire? Do you feel that is less so the case, and do you feel that that might be less so the case because of the Abraham Accords existence? Tal Becker: Well, so let's first talk about the Abraham Accords and their significance.So I think a lot of people present the Abraham accords as kind of an agreement that is about shared interests and shared challenges and so on, and that's definitely true. But they are, in my view, at least aspirationally, something much bigger than that. First of all, they are almost the articulation of what I call a Judeo Muslim civilization, the view that Jews and Muslims, or that all different peoples of the Middle East belong to this place and have a responsibility for shaping its future. The way I describe the Abraham Accords is that they're a group of countries who basically have said that the argument about who the land belongs to is not as important as the understanding that we all belong to the land. And as a result of that, this is kind of a partnership against the forces of extremism and chaos, and really offering a version of Israeli Jewish identity and of Muslim Arab identity that is in competition with the Iranian-Hezbollah-Hamas narrative that kind of condemns us to this zero sum conflict. So the first thing to say is that I think the Abraham Accords have such tremendous potential for reimagining the relationship between Muslims and Jews, for reimagining the future of the region, and for really making sure that the enemies of peace no longer shape our agenda, even if they're still there. So in that sense, the opening that the Abraham Accords offers is an opening to kind of reimagine the region as a whole. And I think that's really important. And I think we have now an opportunity to deepen the Accords, potentially to expand them to other countries, and in doing so, to kind of set back the forces of extremism in the region. In a strange way, I would say Manya that Israel is more challenged right now in the west than we are in the Middle East. Because in the West, you see, I mean, there's backlash, and it's a complicated picture, but you can see a kind of increasing voices that challenge Israel's legitimacy, that are really questioning our story. And you see that both on the extreme left and extreme right in different countries across the West, in different degrees. In the Middle East, paradoxically, you have at least a partnership around accepting one another within the region that seems to me to be very promising. And in part, I have to say it's really important to understand, for all the tragedy and difficulty of this war, Israel demonstrated an unbelievable resilience, unbelievable strength in dealing with its its adversaries, an unbelievable capacity, despite this seven front challenge, and I think that itself, in a region that's a very difficult region, is attractive. I think we do have a responsibility and an interest in imagining how we can begin to heal, if that's a word we can use the Israeli Palestinian relationship, at least move in a better direction. Use the Trump plan to do that, because that, I think, will also help our relationship in the region as a whole, without making one dependent on the other. Manya Brachear Pashman: So I want to follow up with what you just said, that Israel faces perhaps many more challenges in the west than in the region. What about the Jewish people, would you apply that same statement to the Jewish people? Tal Becker: Well, I think, you know, we've seen, we've seen the rise of antisemitism. And in my view, one way to think about October 7 is that October 7 marks the end of the post-Holocaust era. So there were a few decades there where, even if antisemitism existed, there were many circles in which it was socially unacceptable to give it voice. And something has shattered in the West in particular that it seems to be more socially acceptable to express antisemitism or antisemitic-adjacent type views, and that, I think has has really shocked and shaken many Jews across the western world. I guess the thing I would say about that is, you know, some of the Jews I come across in the West were under, in my view, a bit of an illusion, that antisemitism had somehow been cured. You feel this sometimes in North America, and that essentially, we had reached a stage in Jewish history where antisemitism was broadly a thing of the past and was on the margins, and then the ferocity with which it came back on October 8 was like a trauma. And one of the definitions of trauma is that trauma is a severe challenge to the way you understand the world and your place in it. And so if you had this understanding of your reality that antisemitism was essentially a thing of the past in North America in particular. And then all of a sudden it came back. You can see that traumatic experience. And what I want to argue or suggest is that the problem isn't that we had the solution and lost it. I think the problem was we had an illusion that there was a solution in the first place. Unfortunately, I think the Jewish people's history tells the story that antisemitism is kind of like the zombie apocalypse. It never exactly disappears. You can sometimes marginalize it more or marginalize it less. And we're now entering an era which I think Jews are familiar with, which is an era that it is becoming more socially acceptable to be antisemitic. And that to some extent, Jewish communal life feels more conditional and Jewish identity, and while being accepted in the societies in which you live also feels more conditional. And while that is a familiar pattern, we are probably the generation of Jews with more resources, more influence, more power, more capacity than probably at any other time in Jewish history. And so it would be a mistake, I think, to think of us as kind of going back to some previous era. Yes, there are these challenges, but there are also a whole set of tools. We didn't have the F35 during the Spanish Inquisition. So I think that despite all these challenges, it's also a great moment of opportunity for really building Jewish communities that are resilient, that have strong Jewish identity, that are that have a depth of Jewish literacy, and trying to inoculate as much as possible the societies in which we live and the communities in which we live from that phenomenon of antisemitism perhaps better than we had had done in previous iterations of this. Manya Brachear Pashman: I also want to go back and explore another term that you've used a couple of times, and that is enemies of peace. And I'm curious how you define the enemies of peace. Who are you talking about? And I'm asking you to kind of take a step back and really broaden that definition as much as possible. Tal Becker: I mean, it goes back to that idea that I mentioned about the Abraham Accords, which is an understanding that there are different peoples in the Middle East that call it home, and each of those peoples deserves a place where they can nurture their identity and cultivate it and have their legitimacy respected, and in that sense, those who are engaged in a kind of zero sum competition, that feel that their exist, existence depends on the obliteration of the other. I see those as enemies of peace. Now, I believe that both Jews and Palestinians, for example, have a right to self determination. I think that both belong in the sense that both deserve the capacity to cultivate their own identity. But the right to self determination, for example, the Palestinian right to self determination doesn't include the right to deny the Jewish right to self determination. It doesn't include the right to erase Jewish history. In the same way that we as Jews need to come to terms with the fact that the Palestinian people feel a real connection to this place. Now, it's very difficult, given how radicalized Palestinian society is, and we have to be very realistic about the threats we face, because for as long as the dominant narrative in Palestinian society is a rejection of Jewish belongingness and self determination, we have a very difficult challenge ahead of us. But I essentially, broadly speaking, would say, the enemies of peace are those who want to lock us into a zero sum contest. Where essentially, they view the welfare of the other as a threat to themselves. Y You know, we have no conflict with Lebanon. We have no conflict with the people of Iran, for example. We have a conflict, in fact, a zero sum conflict with an Iranian regime that wants to annihilate Israel. And I often point to this kind of discrepancy that Iran would like to destroy Israel, and Israel has the audacity to want not to be destroyed by Iran. That is not an equivalent moral playing field. And so I view the Iranian regime with that kind of agenda, as an enemy of peace. And I think Israel has an obligation to also articulate what its aspirations are in those regards, even if it's a long time horizon to realize those aspirations, because the enemies are out there, and they do need to be confronted effectively and pretty relentlessly. Manya Brachear Pashman: For our series on the Abraham Accords, Architects of Peace, I spoke with Dr Ali Al Nuami, and we talked about the need for the narrative to change, and the narrative on both sides right, the narrative change about kind of what you refer to as a zero sum game, and for the narrative, especially out of Israel, about the Palestinians to change. And I'm curious if you've given that any thought about changing, or just Israel's ability or obligation to send a message about the need for the Palestinians indeed to achieve self determination and thrive. Tal Becker: Well, I think first, it's important to articulate how difficult that is, simply because, I mean, Israel has faced now two years of war, and the sense that I think many Israelis felt was that Palestinian society at large was not opposed to what happened on October 7, and the dominant narratives in Palestinian society, whether viewing Israel as some kind of a front to Islam, or viewing Israel as a kind of colonial enterprise to then be like in the business of suggesting a positive vision in the face of that is very difficult, and we do tend Manya, in these situations, when we say the narrative has to change, we then say, on the other side, they have to change the narrative, rather than directing that to ourselves. So I think, you know, there is an obligation for everyone to think about how best to articulate their vision. It's a huge, I think, obligation on the Palestinian leadership, and it's a very one they've proved incapable of doing until now, which is genuinely come to terms with the Jewish people's belongingness to this part of the world and to their right to self determination. It's a core aspect of the difficulty in addressing this conflict. And having said all that, I think we as Israeli Jews also have an obligation to offer that positive vision. In my mind, there is nothing wrong with articulating an aspiration you're not sure you can realize, or you don't even know how to realize. But simply to signal that is the direction that I'm going in, you know? I mean Prime Minister Netanyahu, for example, talks about that he wants the Palestinian people to have all the power to govern themselves and none of the power to threaten Israel. Which is a way of saying that the Palestinian people should have that capacity of self determination that gives them the potential for peace, prosperity, dignity, and security, But not if the purpose of that is to essentially be more focused on destroying Israel than it is on building up Palestinian identity. Now that I think, can be articulated in positive terms, without denying Israel's connection to the land, without denying the Jewish people's story, but recognizing the other. And yes, I think despite all the difficulties, victory in war is also about what you want to build, not just what you want to destroy. And in that sense, our ability to kind of frame what we're doing in positive terms, in other words, not just how we want to take away the capacities of the extremists, but what we want to build, if we had partners for that, actually helps create that momentum. So I would just say to Dr Ali's point that, I think that's a shared burden on all of us, and the more people that can use that language, it can actually, I think, help to create the spaces where things that feel not possible begin to maybe become possible. Manya Brachear Pashman: Which in many ways Trump's 20 point plan does that. It doesn't just only talk about disarming Hamas. It talks about rebuilding Gaza. Are there other ways in which Israel can assure the success of the Palestinian people and push forwards. Can you envision other ways? Tal Becker: Well, I mean, I'm sure there's lots that people can do, but there is a burden on the Palestinian people themselves, and I do find that a lot of this discourse kind of takes agency away from the Palestinian people and their leadership. In a way, there's a kind of honesty to the Trump plan and the Security Council resolution that was adopted endorsing the plan that has been missing for quite a while. The Trump plan, interestingly, says three things. It says, on this issue of a kind of vision or pathway. It says, first of all, it basically says there is no Palestinian state today, which must have come as a bit of a shock for those countries recognizing a Palestinian state. But I think that is a common understanding. It's a little bit of an illusion to imagine that state. The second thing is how critical it is for there to be PA reform, genuine reform so that there is a responsible function in Palestinian governing authority that can actually be focused on the welfare of its people and govern well. And the third is that then creates a potential pathway for increasing Palestinian self-determination and moving potentially towards Palestinian statehood, I think, provided that that entity is not going to be used as a kind of terror state or a failed state. But that, I think, is a kind of honest way of framing the issue. But we don't get around Manya the need for responsibility, for agency. So yes, Israel has responsibility. Yes, the countries of the region have responsibilities. But ultimately, the core constituency that needs to demonstrate that it is shifting its mindset and more focused on building itself up, rather than telling a story about how it is seeking to deny Jewish self determination, is the Palestinian leadership. And I do think that what's happening in Gaza at least gives the potential for that. You have the potential for an alternative Palestinian governance to emerge. You have the potential for Hamas to be set back in a way that it no longer has a governing role or a shape in shaping the agenda. And I think if we can make Gaza gradually a success story, you know, this is a bit too optimistic for an Israeli to say, but maybe, maybe we can begin to create a momentum that can redefine the Israeli Palestinian relationship. Manya Brachear Pashman: So I asked what can Israel do to move forward to assure the Palestinians that they are behind their success and thriving? What can Israel do to make sure that it's respected, that is not facing the challenges from the West, from that region. What can Israel do? What is Israel's obligation, or is that an unfair question, to ensure its success and its moving forward? Tal Becker: I think it's a really difficult question, because the criticism that Israel has gotten throughout this war and the threats to its legitimacy in the way that they've erupted, I think, is a really complicated phenomena that has many moving parts. So some part of it, I think, rightly, is about Israeli policy and Israeli language and the way it has framed what it has been doing, and really the unbelievable moral dilemmas that the war in Gaza posed, and how Israel conducted itself in the way of those dilemmas. And people can have different views about that. I think there's a misunderstanding, very significantly, of the nature of the battlefield and how impossible Hamas in its deliberate kind of weaponization of the civilian population, made that. So there's one component that has to do with Israel. There's another component that we can't ignore, that has to do with antisemitism. And that, I think, for that group right who almost define themselves through their hostility towards the Jewish people and towards the very idea of Jewish self determination, it's hard to think anything that Israel says or does that actually matters, right? These were the people who were criticizing Israel even before it responded. And so in that sense, I think putting too much on Israel is a problem. Maybe I'll just focus on the area that I think is most interesting here, and that is, in my view, a lot of the argument about Israel in the West, we'll take the US, for example, is actually not an argument about Israel, but more an argument about the US that is channeled through Israel. In other words, a lot of people seem to be having their argument about America's story of itself channeled through their argument about Israel. And what they're actually arguing about is their vision of America. And you can see different versions of this. There's a story of America as perhaps a kind of white Christian country that was exploited by immigrants and is exploited by other countries in the world, and that narrative kind of tends pushes you in a direction of having a certain view, in my view, mistaken, in any event, about Israel. That is more to do about your story of America than it has anything to do with what Israel is doing or saying. And then you hear this very loudly, and I'm not suggesting these are exactly even. But on the more radical kind of progressive left, you have a story of America as essentially a country that never came over the legacy of slavery, a country that has to kind of apologize for its power, that it sees itself as a colonial entity that can't be redeemed. And when you're kind of locked in that version of America, which I kind of think is a kind of self hating story of America. Then that then projects the way you view Israel more than anything Israel says or does. So this has a lot to do with America's, and this is true of other countries in the West, that internal struggle and then the way different actors, especially in the social media age, need to position themselves on the Israel issue, to identify which tribe they belong to in this other battle. So in my view, people who care about the US-Israel relationship, for example, would be wise to invest in this, in the battle over America's story of itself, and in that sense, it's less about Israeli public diplomacy and less about Israeli policy. It's much more about the glasses people wear when they look at Israel. And how do you influence those glasses? Manya Brachear Pashman: I could sit here and talk to you all day, this is really fascinating and thought provoking. I do want to ask two more questions, though, and one is, I've been harping on what can Israel do? What are Israel's obligations? But let me back up a step. What about the Arab states? What are the other neighbors in the region obligated to do to assure the Palestinians that they're going to succeed and thrive? Tal Becker: Yeah, I mean, it's a really important question and, and I think that for many, many years, we suffered from, I would say, a basic lack of courage from Arab states. I'm generalizing, but I hope that others would advance their interests for them. And in some sense, I think the Abraham Accords really flipped that, because Abraham Accords was the Arab states having the courage and the voice to say, we need to redefine our relationship with with Israel, and in that way, create conditions, potentially for Palestinians to do, to do the same. I would say that there are a whole set right, and, not my position to kind of be the lecturer, and each country is different in their own dynamics. I think the first from an Israeli perspective, of course, is to really push back against this attempt to delegitimize the Jewish people's belonging in the Middle East, and not to allow this kind of narrative where the only authentic way to be a Palestinian or a Muslim is to reject the idea that other peoples live in the region and have a story that connects them to it, and Israel is here to stay, and it can be a partner. You can have disagreements with it. But the idea that it's some kind of illegitimate entity, I think, needs to be taken out of the lexicon fundamentally. I think a second area is in really this expectation of Palestinian especially in the Israeli Palestinian context, of being partners in holding the Palestinians accountable not to have the kind of the soft bigotry of low expectations, and to really recognize Palestinian agency, Palestinian responsibility and also Palestinian rights, yes, but not in this kind of comic strip, victim villain narrative, where Israel has all the responsibilities and the Palestinians have all the rights. My colleague, Einat Wilf, for example, talks about Schrodinger's Palestine. You know, Schrodinger's Cat, right? So Schrodinger's Palestine is that the Palestinians are recognized for rights, but they're not recognized for responsibilities. And Israel has rights and responsibilities. And finally, I would say in terms of the the taking seriously the spoilers in the region, and working with Israel and with our partners to make sure that the spoilers in the region don't dictate the agenda and don't have the capacity to do so, not just hoping that that, you know, Israel and the US will take care of that, but really working with us. And I think a few countries are really stepping up in that regard. They have their own constraints, and we need to be respectful of that, and I understand that. But I think that, you know, this is a strategic partnership. I sometimes joke that with the Emirates, it's a Jewish and a Muslim state, but it's a Catholic marriage. We've kind of decided to bind together in this kind of strategic partnership that has withstood these last two years, because we want to share a vision of the Middle East that is to the benefit of all peoples, and that means doing kind of three things at once. Meaning confronting the spoilers on the one hand, investing in regional integration on the other, and seeing how we can improve Israeli Palestinian relations at the same time. So working in parallel on all three issues and helping each other in the process and each other thrive. I mean, there's a whole bunch of stuff beyond the conflict. There's, you know, AI and fighting desertification and irrigation and defense tech and intelligence, and a whole host of areas where we can cooperate and empower each other and be genuine partners and strengthen our own societies and the welfare of our own peoples through that partnership for ourselves, for each other and for the region. So there's a lot to do. Manya Brachear Pashman: And my last question – I've asked, what do the Arab states need to do? What does Israel need to do? What do Jewish advocates around the world need to do? Tal Becker: So I think the most important thing at this moment for me, Manya, is courage. There is a danger, because of the rise in antisemitism and the kind of hostility that one sees, that Jews in particular will become more silent. And they'll kind of hide a little bit in the hope that this will somehow pass them. And I think what our history has taught us, is generally, these are phenomena that if you don't stand up against them early, they become extremely powerful down the line, and you can't, and it becomes very, very costly to confront them. So it takes courage, but I would say that communities can show more courage than individuals can, and in that sense, I think, you know, insisting on the rights of Jews within the societies in which they live, fighting for those kind of societies, that all peoples can prosper in. Being strong advocates for a kind of society in which Jews are able to thrive and be resilient and prosper, as well as others as well. I think is very important. Just in a nutshell, I will say that it seems to me that in much of the world, what we're seeing is liberalism being kind of hijacked by a radical version of progressivism, and nationalism being hijacked by a version of ultra-nationalism. And for Jews and for most people, the best place to be is in liberal nationalism. Liberal nationalism offers you respect for collective identity on the one hand, but also respect for individual autonomy on the other right. That's the beautiful blend of liberal nationalism in that way, at least aspirationally, Israel, being a Jewish and democratic state, is really about, on the one hand, being part of a story bigger than yourself, but on the other hand, living a society that sees individual rights and individual agency and autonomy. And that blend is critical for human thriving and for meaning, and it's been critical for Jews as well. And so particularly across the diaspora, really fighting for liberal national identity, which is being assaulted from the extremes on both sides, seems to me to be an urgent mission. And it's urgent not just for Jews to be able not to kind of live conditionally and under fear and intimidation within the societies they live, but as we've seen throughout history, it's pretty critical for the thriving of that society itself. At the end of the day, the societies that get cannibalized by extremes end up being societies that rot from within. And so I would say Jews need to be advocates for their own rights. Double down on Jewish identity, on resilience and on literacy, on Jewish literacy. At the same time as fighting for the kind of society in which the extremes don't shape the agenda. That would be my wish. Manya Brachear Pashman: Making liberal nationalism an urgent mission for all societies, in other words, being a force for good. Tal Becker: Yes, of course. Manya Brachear Pashman: Our universal mission. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing all of these thoughts with us and safe travels as you take off for the next destination. Tal Becker: Thank you very much, Manya. I appreciate it. Manya Brachear Pashman: As we approach the end of the year, and what a year it's been, take some time to catch up on episodes you might have missed along the way, rewind and listen to some of my more memorable interviews, such as my conversation with former Israeli hostage Shoshan Haran, abducted with her daughter, son in law and grandchildren during the Hamas terror attack on October 7, 2023. Meet doctors or hen and Ernest Frankel, two MIT professors who amid anti Israel academic boycotts, are trying to salvage the valuable research gains through collaboration with Israeli scholars. And enjoy my frank conversation with Jonah Platt, best known for playing Fiyero in Broadway's wicked who now hosts his own hit podcast Being Jewish with Jonah Platt. Hard to believe all of this and more has unfolded in 2025 alone. May 2026 be peaceful and prosperous for us all.

3. 

   15 Dec 2025TRANSCRIPT

   AJC's Asia Pacific Institute on How Australia's Government Ignored the Warning Signs Before Bondi

   Once considered a haven for Jews, Australia is reeling after a deadly Hanukkah terror attack at Bondi Beach left 15 dead—the tragic outcome of skyrocketing hate. AJC Asia Pacific Institute Associate Director Hana Rudolph joins the podcast to unpack the crisis, revealing that despite over 2,000 antisemitic incidents in the year following October 7, the government dropped the ball. Hana details how political inaction and a fear that "supporting Jews is not politically popular" have allowed extremism to fester. She criticizes the delay in implementing the recommendations set forth by Australia's Special Envoy to Combat Antisemitism, noting the government's failure to move beyond basic security measures. Listen as she explains why global pressure is now urgent to ensure Australia takes this massive gap seriously before more lives are lost. Resources: What To Know About the Antisemitic Terror Attack in Sydney Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman: For more than 30 years, American Jewish Committee's Asia Pacific Institute has found Australia to be a nation that has stood shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish people and Israel. But that sense of steadfast support has started to fray as antisemitism has risen exponentially. The massacre at Bondi Beach on the first night of Hanukkah was only the latest and deadliest in a string of antisemitic incidents over the past two years. Here to discuss how we got here is Hana Rudolph, associate director of AJC's Asia Pacific Institute. Hana, welcome to People of the Pod. Hana Rudolph: Thank you so much for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: Well, I want to ask you first, can you kind of introduce our listeners to the Australian Jewish community? How many people are we talking about? What is their history in Australia? Hana Rudolph: The Australian Jewish community is one of the most historic, long standing communities in the Asia Pacific. It dates back to 1788. So we're talking 18th century over 100,000 Jews. They're a diverse community. They reside primarily in the cities of Melbourne and Sydney, but they range in terms of practice, in terms of political views, similar to as we see in Europe or the US. There's some level of debate in terms of what, what percentage of the population it comprises, but somewhere between .5- 1% of the population. Manya Brachear Pashman: And has Australia been a friendly country for the Jewish community for all of that time, and at least until recently? Hana Rudolph: Yeah, absolutely. It has been a deep, close friend of Israel. Israeli diplomats have described Australia as an even closer partner to Israel at the UN and in other global forums than even the US. Jews have been living there for centuries, and have oftentimes described Australia as being like a haven. No matter the antisemitism that increases in Europe or in the US, Australia has been safe. It is the one place besides Israel, where they feel they can live in security. So the surge in antisemitism we've seen, especially since October 7, has just been so much more alarming and frightening and shocking for the community, because they just haven't seen incidents at this level anytime prior. Manya Brachear Pashman: What is it about Australia's community? I mean, I know that there's been a lot of emphasis on a kind of, give everyone a fair go, right? There's a lot of emphasis on equality. Is that what guides this kind of welcoming atmosphere? Or why are they such good friends with Israel? Is there something about the culture? Hana Rudolph: Yeah, Australia takes a lot of pride in its multiculturalism, the harmony and diversity, social cohesion, so they've placed a lot of emphasis on that in terms of, like, the national culture, and I think that's part of what's led to such a safe, thriving space for the Jewish community for so long until now. Manya Brachear Pashman: So what changed? Hana Rudolph: Million dollar question, right? October 7. It's really important to note that, you know, there have been threads of antisemitism from well before October 7, right? Things don't just happen overnight. And in the Hamas attack took place on October 7, before Israel had even begun its defensive war to recover the hostages and to complete its aims, on October 9, there was a massive protest in front of the Sydney Opera House, and people were yelling, were holding signs, yelling slogans of, where is the Jews, F the Jews. Some accounts of them saying, gas the Jews. I mean, we're talking about, there's no linkage here of like, Israel's counter defensive war. It's simply about terrorists attacked Israel. Now is a good time for us to talk about like, go find and hunt down the Jews. So October 7 was the trigger. But in the years since, there has been what the Australian Jewish community has really pointed to, a failure of the Australian Government to take the concerns of antiSemitism seriously. So in the year following October 7, there were over 2000 incidents of antiSemitism, which, if you if you break it down by day like it's horrific, especially when you think about the fact that the Jewish community primarily resides in two cities. So we're talking about 2000 incidents over two cities, primarily. And then in this last year, it was over 1600 incidents. And the Australian government has sought to be responsive. In many ways. They've done $30 million grants for security. They have committed to restoring synagogues that were fire bombed and all of that. But in a lot of ways that matter, kind of going beyond just simply police protection, but more about how do you fundamentally change the way that a society thinks about its Jewish community? They've really dropped the ball and we're seeing the impact of that now. Manya Brachear Pashman: What efforts have been made on the part of the Jewish community to change that? In other words, what advocacy have we seen from Australian Jews and their partners? Hana Rudolph: They've done everything we can, right, like in this they the Australian Jewish community is well established. They operate very similarly to European Jewish communities or American Jewish communities. So they have both umbrella organizations, and they also have advocacy organizations that run the gamut in terms of political viewpoints. AJC's partner organization, AJAC, the Australia Israel Jewish Affairs Council, has been very active in this space. And they have sought to work with leaders in both Maine political parties to call for various reforms. There has been a special envoy that was appointed by the government, which we laud in July 2024 in July 2025 she released a report containing about 50 recommendations for whole of society action, so some highest levels of government going all the way down to society, museums, media, schools, other institutes and just nothing has been done with the report. The government has not considered it. It has not acted on the recommendations, and we're talking about five months since that report was released. The Jewish community has really sought to emphasize that this is not simply a reaction to understandable public concerns about Israel's foreign policy, but rather, there is a deeper issue of antisemitism going on that the government needs to take seriously, and that's really where we're seeing just inaction. Manya Brachear Pashman: We talk a lot here at AJC about the sources of antiSemitism from the right, from the left, from Islamist sources. Where is it coming from? Primarily in Australia? Hana Rudolph: Yeah, it's a really interesting question, especially in Melbourne. My understanding is that the protests that were taking place weekly until the cease fire, and even now it's continued on, but it's morphed a little bit. But those weekly protests were drawing in, similar to what we see in the US, both the far left, people wearing keffiyehs, people calling for Palestinian rights. The same as we see in the US, and then also people on the far right. So it does draw an interesting mix of political views, united in their hatred of Jews and Israel. Manya Brachear Pashman: And what about Islamist sources? Is that separate? Hana Rudolph: Yeah, so especially cities like Melbourne, that is part of the challenge. Melbourne has a high Muslim population. In all of Australia there, the Muslim population is something like 3% but it's one of the largest growing demographics. And in places like Melbourne, I don't know the number offhand, but it has a significantly larger impact on in terms of demographics, in terms of like, how politicians think about their voting, and so that's why you see Australian Jewish leaders pointing to like Alex rivchin from The Executive Council of Australian Jewry, has talked publicly about supporting Jews is not politically popular. Politicians aren't willing to risk that support because of the political costs they see, I think, primarily from Muslim voters. So Melbourne, especially where the protests have been particularly violent. Obviously, this took place in Sydney, so the violence is happening there too. But in Melbourne, where we've seen protests that turned violent previously, too, there's been real concern about the Muslim population. They're kind of feeding that. The Executive Council of Australian Jewry recently won a lawsuit. Within the last year, won the lawsuit against a Muslim clergy member who was in November 2023 so we're talking one month after the Hamas terrorist attacks. So one month later, he was doing a series of lectures describing Jews as pigs, as treacherous, like all these kinds of horrific caricatures. And so thankfully, this lawsuit, the Jewish community won. But this is the kind of situation, and that's one example, and maybe a more extreme example, but these are the kinds of situations that the community is running up against. Also in February 2024 there was a viral video of two Muslim nurses talking about how they would kill any Jews who were their patient, or Israeli or Israelis who were there. I'm sorry, I don't actually know what I just said. There was a video. There was a video that went viral of two Muslim nurses talking about how they would kill any Jewish or Israeli patients that they had and that they had already, was the insinuation as well. And so the lawsuit is ongoing for them, but they have faced criminal charges. They have had their licenses revoked, but there was also significant Muslim community pushback to the consequences that they face, which is also really alarming and disturbing. Manya Brachear Pashman: Of the 49 recommendations that were mentioned in the special envoy's report, Which ones do you think should be the priority going forward? You can't implement them all at once. Hana Rudolph: There's a lot of overlap between what the antisemitism envoy Jillian Siegel has recommended in her report, and what has been recommended through things like the Global Guidelines for Countering Antisemitism, which AJC supports. So I would say things like the enforcement of hate crime that's a huge priority. There are various ways in which the special envoys plan notes how Australia's law enforcement can deepen their efforts. And I think there is, there is some positive there is some positive movement to that end. Now, following this attack, there was an announcement following the recent cabinet meeting of the Australian Prime Minister and his cabinet talking about a hate crime database and so forth. So these are positive things we're also highlighting from the Special Envoys report, things like engaging social media, countering the disturbing narratives that we see there, and establishing better standards. And then also education, and I think that's a really core point. So how do you promote Holocaust education, antisemitism education and so forth and that we need the government's help, but also it can be done through other institutions as well. Manya Brachear Pashman: Can you kind of share, kind of what AJC's advocacy, what you've learned, and what is AJC hearing and doing for Australia? Hana Rudolph: I mean, I think the number one takeaway that Ted [Deutch] and Shira [Lowenberg] had after visiting Australia, and they visited Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney. Canberra being the capital. Was just the the other shock at how much the community has been shaken by this massive spike in incidents. I think the last year's total of over 2000 incidents was something like three times higher than the previous year. So we're really talking about a spike. So just the shock that the Jewish community is facing and reeling from. And the sense from government and law enforcement that the only reaction needs to be about keeping them safe. So in terms of like, the protests that were happening weekly in Melbourne, the government's response was to encourage the Jewish community to stay at home, to not go into the city center where the protests were taking place for their own safety, as opposed to how, like, how do you protect free speech, of course, but also you don't allow it to reach A level where you're concerned about a Jewish person's safety if they come close to the protest. And similarly, just all of these measures that the Australian government has taken has really focused on security, you know, putting money towards law enforcement and and so forth, which is good, but nowhere near enough in terms of changing the slurs, the vandalism, the the arson attacks that has that have been on the rise over the past couple of years. So I think that was the first and primary takeaway that you know this, this massive gap between where the community is and how the government is responding. And in terms of AJC's advocacy, we're really trying to amplify the Australian Jewish community's message here, which is exactly that, that there is not enough being done. The problem is immense, and the government needs to take this seriously. This is not so easy as just putting some money towards security, but we need to go much further. And why is this report from the antiSemitism envoy appointed by the government sitting there for five months without any recommendations being considered or implemented. So things like this, we're we're amplifying that message, not just to Australian diplomats and leaders that we have connections with, but also in the US, because the US Australia relationship is so important, and we know that the US administration cares about antisemitism, and they care about antisemitism abroad, so we're working in close coordination with the White House, with state, to make sure that Canberra also hears this message from the US. Manya Brachear Pashman: Hana, thank you so much for joining us. Hana Rudolph: Thank you, Manya. It's a pleasure to join you.

Inside a recent episode

"Why Do They Hate Us?" CNN's Bianna Golodryga on Fighting Antisemitism in Schools

Published 5 Feb 2026 · Transcript excerpt

[…] But you'll need to know when we spoke at a couple of schools and speaking to kids, it was just so eye opening to know that there is a need for this that they are so eager to have these conversations that, you know, it's as much for Jewish students as it is for non -Jewish students. If not even more so, you know, Jewish students feel that they can be finally heard. But non -Jewish students and allies can truly understand what it feels like and can have conversations about what to do to avoid certain situations preemptively, you know, avoid, or if they've seen certain situations or know about how to respond. […]

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